Are AFDD's the future of circuit protection? - Arc Fault Detection Device
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- Опубликовано: 5 июн 2024
- The 18th Edition of BS7671 introduced UK electricians to the AFDD - Arc Fault Detection Device. Recommended as a means of providing additional protection against fire in regulation 421.1.7 and suggested for use in premises with sleeping accommodation to places which store combustible material.
However just because they are recommended doesn't mean electricians are rushing to fit them. In this video, Gary Hayers suggests they are just a natural extension of increasing standards of circuit protection which has evolved continuously over the last century. Electricians in the US have been fitting the equivalent AFCI's (Arc fault circuit interrupters) for the last 20 years.
Wylex (part of Electrium - Seimens - along with Crabtree) are first to market with a single module device which removes one of the barriers to adopting this technology.
Will AFDD's become mandatory in the 19th edition wiring regulations?
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🎦 Presented by
Gary Hayers - editor eFIXX
#efixx #morepower 
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An observation from USA: AFDD breakers do trip more often than regular breakers - not unexpected as these breakers are monitoring the circuit for additional unwanted conditions. This is especially true for the first several years after a manufacturer makes these breakers available and hasn't fully optimized when they should and should not trip. So, this would be another reason for you fellows in the UK to try to relocate consumer units to easily accessible locations - ones that don't require a ladder or emptying out a cupboard.
I've heard this also Jason Dragon from a fellow spark who's brother in law lives and works in the USA , in his words they are a nightmare 😲
@@TheGorillahands That's is bit of a shook. 😲
@@m101ist p
What about spark plugs? shouldn't they be called arc plugs?
Definitely the future, amazing how things are coming on! Another helpful video👍🏻
Thanks 👍
Good product but like all things it comes down to price, I only fit rcbo's so it's brilliant that they're incorporated in the design and still not insisting on a twin load rcd board. Customers are only now aware of the RCD and the safety it brings to the home its only recently I've noticed that at time of a quote for a reboard that clients know and have a limited understanding of the RCD due to awareness from the industry.
Surge protection is also becoming a clear protection selling point with the public but I think we need a little time before forcing AFDD as a "you must have" sell. A lot has changed on the poor old fuse board what with plastic to metal and RCD to surge recently, the public gets assured of "this is future proof" yet a year later a lot has changed.
I for one welcome this tech but again price rears its head and that's what a customer is interested in.
I miss the elex shows to see the new gear but you guys are doing a great job.
Thanks
Fantastic idea for the possibility to safely isolate and lock off the c/u
Also I like the idea of the fault diagnostic led’s if you was to be called out to a fault you could have the client tell you the status of the led so you have half an idea of the possible fault on the way to the job saving you time
Absolutely brilliant video, so informative and helpful. Keep up the good work. 👍
Absolutely, we must introduce them in our systems, I have ordered some also for my Off-Grid PV system. Thanks for sharing. 🙏
Both a spark and arc are created when there is a breakdown of the air insulation and ionization takes place between two points. If the breakdown is short and the arc is extinguished it may be termed a spark, if the arc is maintained for some length of time it may be termed an arc.
Great explanation 👍
council just fitted a new kitchen in my house and in process thye changed the board to the crabtree rcbos with the led indicators bloody brilliant as i actually had a fault a few days back and water had got into the back of the socket. the light gave me information on what to look for and it still stays flashing until reset very clever. they are very expensive im suprised the council wanted to spend the cash.
Cor... I didn’t realise it’s been active over in America as standard for 20 years, that’s an eye opener. Great vid
I like your humuor. "Our friend over the pond...". Great video.
Great product we now just need to get away from screw terminals in sockets switches and CSU’s in Europe push fit terminals are common place getting away from torque settings and lose screws
We need to get rid of the archaic screw terminals and din rail mount system...and general CU design. They are too small, too cluttered to be fit for purpose, and all these modules with remote flying leads are just a complete mess and disaster. All terminations should be fixed into the CU body ( yes Wago style ), and all protective modules should simply plug in. So they can be removed, changed etc etc without touching the fixed wiring. Today's boards are a shit show. Ever try changing a faulty RCBO on say a fully loaded 18 way TP&N board ? ( or larger ) Usually the, size of the module, lack of space flying leads and general wiring makes things totally inaccessible. There is no excuse for them being the way they are anymore.
Wow we are behind the curve yet again. Great demo Gaz 👍. Arc not Spark 👍
The best way not to loose it, is to keep it inside the D/B.
I recon everything should have a AFDD, but it'd be nice if they came down in price. Like a RCBO price, compared to the stupid price they are atm. Same goes for SPD, as there's a massive mark up on them because they are a "name brand". Some of them are 10x the price compared to something you get off eBay which is around the £10 mark and the item that's inside is exactly the same! All it is is a MOV. This is why when I install them, I get them off eBay because there cheaper and have the exact same item inside.
Can you prove they are exactly the same and not C-hinese E-quivalent marked 🤔
Definatly the future Gaz. Great video
I am currently installing some electrical points in an outside wooden stable block and will be installing afdd devices to each circuit .. I think now every electrical installation has now have to be assessed for afdd device's.
Nice vid... Deffo think they'll become the norm... 👌🏻
Great video Gary, very informative.
Can you explain how the AFDD is OK with insulation resistance tests. Surely, the switching function inside the ADFF will be on the supply rather than the output. That would leave the electronic circuitry connected to the output terminals and vulnerable to insulation resistance test voltages.
He just explained that question at the end.. the load side terminals are disconnected from the electrical componants inside the decice...
Maybe it has a double pole feature...eitherway your good to punch your 500v test without damage or reading the device as dead short...👍
Useful information 👍
Is the AFDD/RCBO funtioning for the the cooker connection only? or it is connected as well to the lighting and power outlet as well?
As AFDDs are mentioned in the 18th edition it is still only a recommendation on the part of the installer to use them. Will the new regulations or a future amendment make them compulsory? as they are a very clever piece of design manufacture and operation.
Hello, thanks for informative video. Will AFDD work properly (with no false tripping) if I put 1 AFDD device (40amps) before 4 circuits 10 amps each? These 4 circuits will sit on their MCBs, of course. Thoughts? Thank you
Very clever device, another expensive replacement should they fail? What’s the warranty on these?
Great video.
Think they will be standard only take up one way of the consumer unit will make the RCBO obsolete on new installations. Good and Informative. What was that unit on the right on the consumer unit. Thanks.
Great idea in theory but like others have said unless they become mandatory, or significantly drop in price youll have a hard time convincing many people to have these installed
Really helpful. Enjoying the #lockdownlivefeed
It is stupid to lock the panel. If you have an electrically event, how can you fix it quickly? Calling you will take a while, maybe was a single sparc and all you need to do is to rise up the knob again. Also, it is wise to see position of the breakers, through a transparent glass, just to see the real situation inside the panel, without open any door. My 2 cent opinion, as not an electrician, but a passionate one. Santee! 🍷🍷🍷
yeah its not a good idea
If the fault is still present it will trip out right away no danger to anyone
Lock out the main breaker or the circuit under test!
Thanks for the video. Am I correct in thinking that eventually you would have a consumer unit full of these instead of an MCB and RCBO on its own?
Yes that’s right - as an interim we’ve seen people suggest using them on high current circuits.
Just think how many burnt out shower 50A pullcords you could save, lol 😆
@@efixx Excuse me, what's the price of that AFDD ?
@@Arif-nj7vl £150 for 1
Hold on, if the device can detect an over voltage (>285) does that mean it incorporates almost an SPD function too?
Not quite. SPD is more of a protection of transient over voltages. Doubt this would detect that and would probably be fried by it instead as they're very high over a short period of time. Probably more for indication in case the DNO increases the voltage and in some houses it goes over the voltage tolerance.
Looks like a great piece of kit, and I'm all for anything which is going to make our lives easier and the installation safer. What kind of price is one of these? Also, all the while b and q are selling consumer units to Joe public these important safety devices will not be getting purchased or installed. More needs to done for these wanna be sparks. Great video though Gaz.
red for no fault.. seriously ? I though red had been standardised for fault conditions years ago.
Seems that the LED indicator isn’t standardised. - Eaton, ABB, Siemens - all different - where would we be without standards ?
What wrong with a traffic light indication, that should easy enough to standardize, red led indicates fault to my thinking as it probably would the customer, it maybe good for quick call outs for the electricians though
@@brianhewitt8618 Does common sense apply when the boffins set down to agree on standards?
I think a solid red colour is fine. It's an indication that the breaker is working but also energised. If it was green then house owners may think the circuit is off and safe to work on.
@@efixx As the old saying goes, the great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from".
How will the AFDD device react to a power circuit that supplies an electrical welder, be it arc welder or TIG OR MIG ?
They're mostly SMPS based tools, so I dont think they would trigger them. Maybe a old transformer based old buzzbox may cause issues but also, its unlikely.
Great product, not sure with that price tag how many people will be buying them though.
I’d like to see a simulation of a fault, from memory on other channels they struggled to get them to trip consistently.
I also watched it arced and just arced for ages lol.. its all about the rcbo thats no1 for electrical safety.. the afdd is just another money making big business scheme as rcbo's are so cheap to buy now there's no money in it for them.. ie fusebox or contactum etc
philip triggs or if they want them to be used why not one that’s intergrated with an SPD that can go before the main switch, surely the most common type of arc we all see is the main tails in the switch when the neutral works it’s way loose and melts the switch 😂
@@whatthedeuse
But to be honest we all know why the real cause of all these fires/arcing etc... its normally down to being badly installed work/ or inferior repairs carried out by to many electricians/builders/home diyers who don't know what they are doing..
My opinion is that if a loose connection was to occur through out the installation then this is down to the electrician being either under cautious with his or her work or the electrician not being competent at all. If routine checks are carried out regularly and test and inspection is carried out when the installation is due for testing then this should minimise the faults such as loose connections. as a good competent well trained electrician should be able to double check his work after it has been installed again to minimise the problems of loose connections. far to many new installations not getting checked or tested to the quality of standard it should be. Although without said it is a great product and great design but as mentioned in the comments I think it will come down to the price point at the end of the day. Greats videos keep them up 👍🏻
Is there a document stating that the device auto-tests every 15 hours? I couldn't find anything regarding this matter :(
An extra £150 just for the part, pushing the cost of rewires to become even more unaffordable for an ordinary householder. So ironically it will cause more people to instead live with old boards & old circuits and thereby end up reducing safety.
Maybe dealing with the problem rather than the cause but this device could protect against the dodgy domestic appliances that seem to be prevalent... its clever stuff and will no doubt come at a cost, which will influence the take up
New comment on a relativly old video. Only a couple of years after a kitchen refurbishment, the microwave stopped working, and not thinking it all through properly, I assumed that it had died - it was itself relatively long in the tooth. So, I purchased a new microwave, only to find that it also didn''t work when plugged in. As it turned out, the terminations in the rear of the socket had come loose, probably done to vibrations from the adjacent washing machine. So, almost certainly this was an arcing situation, and would have been detected by the AFDD...
I'm sure these must do what they claim but how do you test them? Over current and earth leakage are well understood and there's testers and ways to prove the device is working correctly. I don't understand how anyone can prove an AFDD device is working correctly and I hope someone can explain please
They have a self test circuit ( you can also get self checking RCDs)
@@efixx yeah but that doesn't actually create an actual arc fault waveform on the line.
Hi, Is there afdd protection for 3 phase four wire circuits?
Arcs tend to come from loose screw terminal connections. So if these are eliminated the need for an AFDD is reduced or even eliminated. Having screwless terminals makes an installation much, much safer. The likes of the Wago type of connector and screwless terminals on sockets, switches, appliances, MCBs, RCBOs, etc, will pretty well eliminate the need for AFDDs.
It seems like things have improved since the 18th came out and all afdd was laughed at. Looks a good product.
The fabled AFDD-RCBO can’t wait for these to drop in price when they roll out an SPD-AFDD-RCBO mini breaker 😂
Seriously though, impressive tech, definitely beats a bs3036 and they might be costly but they were things of myth not long ago.
Pushfit Connections + Neutral Busbar design next please Wylex. That’d be mad. 🤘🏻
Led light is helpful 👍
When I get round to upgrading my own house to18th , I would fit these on the socket rings. RCBOs on the fixed wiring.
I think protection against arc faults on appliances, portable items and extension cables is most important. Can’t afford them on all circuits.
Here we have 3phase ac input as standard (main fuses are usually 16-32 amps, which means you get this for every phase), afdd's go up to 40 amps, so in theory you can put 3 of them on the main incoming phase lines and protect all the circuits after them. The only problem is that when you have an issue then 1/3'd of the circuits are blind. I'm going for this route as my consumer unit is quite small (i can replace 3 wylex afdd/rcbo instead of the 3phase rcbo in the same space) and currently i have 3phase rcbo on all 3 phases, so for me its an upgrade.
Nice 👍
How long do we expect one of these to last with all that tech constantly monitoring the circuit?
Great question - I will update youtube if my board fails it’s been in 7 months 👍
Unless they become mandatory or become cheaper! Amazing bit of kit but considering the cost the customer will normally tell you where to go if you ask them if they want them! Probably after they've finished laughing...
yes great but did you see the price 150£ a 10 way ccu will cost over 1600£ (100£ ccu and main dp iso)
no customer will ask that
Let’s see what happens with BS7671 Amd2
Also an SPD
Here's one... An AFDD looks for frequency oddities, powerline home networking communicates by superimposing harmonics on the household waveform (that's its selling point all plug sockets become network points).
Does an afdd detect powerline communications "interference" as a trip characteristic? And if not... How?!
is it necessary to install a surge protection device also ?
Yes, because a surge is most likely to zap all the 32-bit CPUs inside these devices. Then all you have to worry about is the limited lifetime and fire risk of the MOVs... Hint: wait for IsoMOV versions to appear.
I'm Glad the UK finally added that to their code. 240V can kill and start fires quicker then 120V. Saftey! saftey! Safety!
I'd have thought the higher current of 120V circuits generated more heat?
@@andyburns higher voltage creates higher fault currents!
Though to be fair, in the U.S. panels are 100A or 200A -- much thicker conductors!
From what I have seen the device looks for the fingerprint of arc faults in the sine wave. As this is the case could there be need of perpetually upgrading the AFDD to the latest model to make sure all faults are detected. (Disclaimer: new learner)
Since fitting AFDDs my powerline adapters won't talk to each other.
Wood fuse boxes were not particularly dangerous as the items contained inside were all non-combustible -- ceramic and metal. Modern MCB are made of... plastic. They melt. Ceramic doesn't melt.
Hey UK, get rid of those horrible ring circuits !
No I like them. they are funky. Just like our chunky plugs.
Very good devices👍👍👍👍👍👍
Pretty much everything is going to be gfci or afci or dual function this code change only exceptions is a user wired unit... not 100% sure how the code reads haven't been to my class yet...
Not often im impressed with new stuff but i am! And i say i am (nobody puts AFD’s in the corner)
Probably are the future for the next couple of years, before something else comes out.
A board has become like a mobile phone, needs replacing every few years, it's becoming stupid, and all for manufacturers to up profits.
We've carried out a number of experiments with these screw-less terminals and can produce artificial scenarios of high resistance connections far more easily. Just an observation!
Another factor:
"Let's say an electrician is asked to visit a private house belonging to a family not flushed with spare cash. He observes the switchboard is in a poor state of repair and advises a replacement. On average, (in Australia) a switchboard, consumer unit UK) replacement and repopulation of RCBO's would cost $1,300 AUS fitted. HOWEVER.....if the electrician was MANDATED to replace this with an AFDD equivalent, this price would rise to approximately $6,000 AUS !!
Now what might the above family do? From 55 years in the field, I'll hazard a safe guess and state precisely what they'll do.....Soldier on indefinitely with the original and hope for the best! That's reality!
I am certainly not advocating AFDD is precluded by national regulation, that would be an outrage against people's right to make a decision after being wisely informed. No safe life and property saving regulations should ever venture that far. This has already been well evidenced in the UK, (but nowhere else) However being informed is that all important operative word!
I frankly do not believe AFDD technology is the dreamy panacea of that 'inevitable' way forward as some seem to assume. I would also most certainly caution against abandoning the termination screw clamp. Sockets and plug-tops for instance often suffer from genuine (NON ARCING) high resistance connections faults. Are these plug pins and their receptacles clamped home by strews etc? Of course not, so we must all think out of the box!
After well professionally witnessed serious and very damaging experiences with regards to the OECD initiative non-compliant misconduct of BSI's JPEL/64 since 2008 to the present day, here are some salient practical questions all AFDD enthusiasts should ask themselves. Better still, shouldn't those at BSI and their self declared 'clients', namely the BIG ELECTRICAL ACCESORY MANUFACTURERS, (especially those non British giants owned by overseas companies) be also placing themselves and their staff under scrutiny?
1) Do electrical, (or any) safety regulators exist for British citizens, or are they there to enhance the coffers of these large enterprises and their shareholders?
2) Is it wise that employees and those engaged by such companies or unhealthily connected to those sitting on BSI subcommittees such as JPEL/64?
3) Is it rocket science to observe just how such conflicts of interest in '2' above can completely destroy the very basis of a nation's democratic heart as well as their citizens health and safety, (or is it somehow me who's been inhaling copious quantities of mercury vapour for the last decade and a half ?)
4) Why have incidents of high resistance connection fires risen so notoriously in North America when the AFDD was not only innovated by them, (known as AFCI) yet these devises have also been used for more than the past 20 years and regulated?
5) With so much emphasis and attention being lavished on lower voltage installations such as domestic and light commercial with regards to this illusive bogey man of arc faults, (instead of high resistance connections faults) why then is it where arc protection does cause serious damage such as with far heavier industrial inductive load installations being ignored? Something to do with market economics and high finance perhaps?
It should have been a standard year's ago and the price of these units should have become affordable by now if it had been.
Like any led or neon it can fail. Looks good for the job, however they can stop working just the same and not be reliable.
Thanks Ian - Agree that neon indicators are unreliable. However, A well designed circuit with an LED indicator should last for decades. From my own experience I know a piece of kit, that I designed, with an LED indicator that’s been continuously illuminated for over 25 years! (*Gordon)
@@efixx Hi Gordon, thanks for the reply. I am a commercial engineer, a lot of the equipment I have been working on with neons have not been that reliable. Thanks for the reply. Keep the videos coming. Have a good night.
It’s just a thought that our public liability is so low..why is this ..because overall there are very few electrical fires as a percentage of properties in the uk …..just fitted an afdd board in a thatched roof house ..it cost £1500 just for the materials.
I certainly won't be using Hager AFDDs, DSES put a great big boot into them recently. I'm more concerned about the lifetime of these AFDDs which will go into consumer units for 30 or 40 years. I wonder how many will still be working by then. The series power capacitors will have failed and all electrolytics dried out long before then.
Imagine these randomly tripping the fridge circuit and spoiling your food...repeatedly. What a nightmare!
can anyone point me to anywhere i can see a real world example of one detecting a serial arc
Why not have a green LED for "device Operable"?
green~isolated
red~energized
(this kind of device is inclined toward blink count/flash pattern rather than colours themselves)
How much?
Couldn’t all this arc thing be reduced if the law just make every connection a wago type
Wago breaker , sockets lights
That way user error of loose connections would reduce/eliminated only failures of wages would be concern
It always comes down to price.
Great bits of kit and could save aot of fires but the price makes it a very hard sell.
Its great!!!.....except for the price £185.95 inc vat!!!!? How in the merry hell to put/justify that price to a customer? Especially when if I install and installation with the appropriate due diligence and observance to the regs and manufacturers instructions, the same (if not almost identical) result is achieved?
Watch this space to see what happens with the prices- The US equivalent the AFCI is about $30
Too expensive. When they’re a tenner a pop it’ll be worth it
Mainly used in bedrooms, and this is to protect against poor joints made especially in wire nuts m
Morettes
Great product would be using them immediately, unfortunately the price is restrictive. Populate a board with 10 your talking £1300 just for the breakers. Quoting £1500 just for the board? How many quotes are you going to win at that price?
Do u think one Day you could fit 8 or 10 afdd in the C.U.
As prices fall that should become reality.
@@efixx thanks guys . Great vlog as always
Great video. But over £150, jog on
Great, single phase and one slot, but when there's a 3 phase version they'll probably make it take up 9 slots! WHY!!!!!
I like them but they need to drop in price 10x
No they are not the future they are an expensive useless device-- Massive improvements required and a dramatic reduction in cost.
Sounds like RCBOs a couple of decades ago.... 🤔
Shame these things do not work with the most common form of electrical fire dangers that are not otherwise protected already, ie overcurrent. This dangerous and subtle real risk to life and property still remains known as high resistance faults, not arcing at all ! These costly devices don't even work in the labs on loads applicable to light commercial and domestic. These things are not considered as operationally effective in virtually all countries that use 220 to 250 volt supplies with the exception of the UK where the majority of their manufacturers, (although not British,) have nevertheless effected deals where they have seduced BSI's JPEL/64 to run with them and who have dubiously opened the doors for their importation, never mind the H&S and expense to the British public. Don't believe us, for goodness sake, go purchase one yourself and try it out!! After 55 years in the business I have learned the marked difference between high resistance faults and either parallel or series arcing. Great stuff in the 110/120 volt North American/Japan arenas where they were they we designed for and known as AFCI's, but entirely unsuited elsewhere! It's a UK national disgrace!
AFDDs offer protection from
*1)* Overcurrent;
*2)* Fault;
*3)* Earth leakage;
*4)* arcs.
@@johnburns4017- Sadly precious little use for the acutely common high resistance connection fault however. These are those common dangers where overcurrent, imbalance and arc fault devices cannot help much no matter about the massive price of these three in one jobs.
@@davidheathcote1618 wrote:
_"high resistance connection fault"_
Use quality fittings and do not use the rear of sockets as junction boxes. Use 35mm deep backboxes and Wago type of _screwless_ connections at the rear of the backbox to take a circuits load, either ring or radial. Then the socket can be attached to the Wago on 2.5mm flex tails, just sliding into the box. This reduces the likelihood of arcs on the house wiring itself, as screwed connection are eliminated except on the sockets themselves - and if using sockets with screwless terminals, none at all except on the MCB/RCB/AFDD.
All by using newer technology and some thought.
Definitely something to avoid. Experts are expected to explain why this device and it’s pricetag are not worth it at all. No one uses them in private homes over the Canal in Europe.
I wonder how long affds are going to stay at £150 a go lol
£135 for 💰
Completely pointless using them. Health and safety gone mad.