Where Should We Be Using Dual Function Breakers?
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- Опубликовано: 11 дек 2022
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When installing circuitry into a residence, it is important to refer to the NEC to determine exactly what types of protection are needed. GFCI protection and AFCI protection being among them. But what about dual function breakers? In the latest episode of Electrician U, Dustin brings to light what a dual function breaker is and where would be the places to install them.
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Let’s discuss the difference between the standard GFCI breaker, a standard AFCI breaker, Combination breakers, and Dual Function breakers so there isn’t confusion with terminology. A standard GFCI breaker senses the difference between what’s going OUT to the load and what’s coming BACK and interrupts the circuit if there is a big enough difference to cause damage to personnel. There are 2 kinds of standard AFCI breakers. A Series AFCI breaker will sense if there is a break in a single wire (where there would be an arc from one side of that wire to the next) and will interrupt the circuit. A parallel AFCI breaker senses a small amount of arcing between a neutral and a hot of the same circuit (not enough to be a dead short but smaller arcing) and interrupts the circuit. A combination breaker has the capability to protect from BOTH Series AND Parallel arcs. And lastly, a Dual Function breaker will protect against Ground Faults AND Arc Faults.
The installation of a GFCI breaker isn’t specifically lined out in the NEC, just that GFCI protection for certain devices is required. Remember, GFCI protection is generally limited to the device, whereas AFCI protection is required for the entire circuit. Considering both the need to keep cost down AND convenience for the end user, a single GFCI breaker could take the place of several GFCI receptacles within a circuit or negate the need to run a large distance to protect the next receptacle in line of the GFCI device protecting it. In other words, a GFCI breaker will protect ALL the receptacles on the circuit. An AFCI breaker will do exactly the same thing, just from an Arc Fault standpoint in lieu of a Ground Fault.
Article 210.8(A) of the NEC covers GFCI requirements in a residential installation while article 210.12(B) covers AFCI requirements of the NEC. If you were to look in the code, you would see that several of those areas are required to have BOTH GFCI and AFCI protection. Enter the Dual Function Breaker. Take a residential kitchen for example. You could put a dual function breaker in several of the circuits in the kitchen, thus negating the need for an AFCI breaker AND a GFCI device. A laundry room could be done the same way as the requirement is there for both forms of protection. It potentially could save the contractor/owner/GC money by combining several forms of the required protection into one device and will certainly save the homeowner/contractor some aggravation by trying to figure out what exactly has tripped. A single breaker would be the source of turning the offending circuit back on (after troubleshooting it to figure out WHY it tripped!).
Another reason to use a dual function breaker in lieu of both a breaker for AFCI protection and a GFCI device for protection is that the breakers tend to be a bit more robust and will fail less frequently than a device. Especially the WR GFCI breakers installed outside as they are constantly exposed to the elements. This, overtime, could amount to significant savings in replacement. As always, refer to the current version of the NEC to find the protection requirements for your situation as codes are reworked every 3 years. Also, it may be work answering customers questions as to why you would install a Dual Function breaker or individual devices. It certainly pays to help them understand why we install things the way we do.
We hope this has been helpful in understanding the specifics of Dual Function breakers. Is there a topic you would like to see discussed on Electrician U? Leave a comment in the comments section and let us know. Please continue to follow Dustin and Electrician U as we are constantly updating our content to assist our followers in becoming the best electricians that they can be.
#electrician #electrical #electricity #dual #function #breakers #afci #gfci
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Was updating receptacles to TR in my family room and the breaker tripped out on AFCI as soon as I turned it back on. I went back and checked my wiring to find that when I had pulled the tab on the receptacle to enable half to be switch-controlled, it left a small burr that was arcing. The AFCI may have saved my bacon.
These videos have been coming out just in time! Was looking to have an electrical panel replaced, and a few of your recent videos have helped answer a number of questions I had. I'm going to leave it up to an electrician to do the physical replacing, but now I have a better understanding of what I'm looking for in a replacement panel.
I just did a big complete kitchen remodel and due to upcoming code changes and frankly, supply chain, I used dual function on every circuit - all appliances (except the 240v 50amp oven) lights and SABC's... Inspector said "yup, that's pretty much how ya gotta do it these days"... $$$$$$
Yep. Amazing what happens when the people that make billions selling a $5 breaker for $50 get to write the mandate.
I need to invent something I can force everyone in the country to install by code LMAO
Guy who taught me told me something that still rings true after 20yrs.
"Its a product-driven code"
I cannot get enough of your videos, and appreciate them so much. I was curious if you have done a video on overload current protection on secondary conductors? I’ve been telling the apprentices I work with to watch your videos, and one of them just got a 66 on their last quiz pertaining to secondary conductor protection. Much thanks and please keep posting code videos!
In my area, for Siemens breakers specifically (as I have a Siemens panel), the CAFCI / GFCI / dual-function breakers are the same price, $50 per breaker. I decided to go with dual-function breakers for most of the circuits because there's little benefit to going with CAFCI-only breakers. When I moved in to my house, there was only one GFCI breaker in the box, for the bathrooms, not even the kitchen or basement outlets. I've upgraded most of the breakers to dual-function slowly over time due to the cost.
I put duel function on everything ! They area a better breaker than the standard afci
As usual, great usable information
Dustin, thank you and blessings to your family🙂🎄
One of my favorite applications for combination AF/GF breakers is retractable hoses for central vacuums. Retractable hoses are wired to power 24/7 and it would not have a cord or plug. So, it will not be plugged into a receptacle. However, the code still requires AF protection for those. And, though it is hardwired, the hose still has a receptacle at the end. For central vacuum accessories that are hardwired, I just use a combination AF/GF breaker and call it a day. However, I go a step further. I put a wall switch for hardwired vacuum cleaner accessories. You shut it off when you are finished so, there is only power in the hose during cleaning.
I believe I saw that the 2023 code was going to require EVERYTHING in a kitchen, basement and the exterior of a dwelling to be GFCI protected. The only exception would be where a manufacturer specifically states GFCI protection not be used due to incompatibility issues. But that will only be a temporary exemption as the manufacturers will need to address that issue.
exactly. EVERYWHERE... this guy is referencing the 2013 code for some reason... its changed a lot in the past 10 years.
Of course it all depends upon which version of the NEC your particular location has adopted. Some are still several versions behind, which can be confusing sometimes, even for the inspectors.
It's true. (A)(6) in 210.8 now just says "kitchens" meaning all 125- through 250- volt receptacles in the kitchen require GFCI. However, there is a list of locations at the end of 210.8 (in 2023 NEC) where receptacles everywhere are exempt, such as ANY type of security system(fire, burglar, high water, carbon, etc.,) that is permanently connected to a receptacle. That applies in any room in 2023 NEC, not just basements anymore. Also, ice melting equipment at gutters/eaves is still exempt. There are two more I think, I would have to look.
Another advantage of GFCI in panel is the ability to take a circuit tester and plug it into a receptacle and press the test button. Then you know you can work on that circuit and the correct breaker is off. Of course, verify, but this can save some back-and-forth to the panel.
Great video (as usual). Please stop at GFCI protection if you have a metal or wood working shop AND have tools with BRUSH motors. AFCI protection will cause nuisance tripping in this instance. I regularly use a 70-year-old Radial Arm Saw (RAS) in my production woodworking shop that is technically part of my dwelling (converted garage). The RAS, and all of my older routers (for example) still have motors with brushes. Most (all?) new tools are “brushless,” so this will allow AFCI protection. It’s cost-prohibitive to replace all tools with brush-containing motors with new brushless ones. Thanks NEC for allowing this exception.
Another advantage to putting the protection in the panel vs. as a device down the line (for example a GFCI outlet) is faults on the home run (like someone drilling through or putting a nail through the home run wire) should cause a trip instead of a death.
A minor disadvantage is if using a GFCI outlet tester, one has to return to where the panel is after checking each outlet instead of returning to the (hopefully nearby) GFCI outlet.
Is there a reason to *not* do combo AFCI/GFCI breakers for *every* breaker in your home?
Cost, a panel change used to cost around 300$ between the panel and breakers, now it will cost around 1000$ in gfci/afci/dual breakers, a regular breaker may cost 6$ to 15$, a dual function breaker may cost between 60$ and 80$...
But if you don’t mind spending the extra money wouldn’t it be better to do it?
Nuisance tripping is reason enough not to do it. Perfectly good circuits may occasionally (or immediately) trip just because a bare equipment grounding conductor in an outlet box is touching the termination screw for the grounded (white) wire on a receptacle, for example.
Had a few older customers who had me remove GFCI breakers in hard for them to access basement panels to reset them. Installed GFCI on first box from panel.
Just wired a basement, the wet bar area has a decorative stone wall. Had to put in 2 receptacles to meet code. I used a dual function breaker so I didn’t have a GFCI and duplex receptacle in the decorative wall. Now will have 2 matching duplex, just an aesthetic thing!
Great explanation Dustin, keep up the good work. Love your videos. When are you moving to CO?
This is super detailed and a great educational tool for anyone looking to learn about arc fault/ground fault breakers. Has anyone dealt with Siemens afci/gfci dual breaker tripping? I have them in my kitchen and laundry rooms both of which trip for a blender and heat pump washer/dryer. I’m replacing both with an arc breaker and gfci blank in my crawlspace for the kitchen because they combined two receptacles there that need gfci protection. Anyone with info on those breakers would be great. I’ve tried replacing and they consistently trip no matter what but don’t trip on regular arcs or other gfci’s.
Would love to have a video about electrical in the Attic. What kind of box? Where can I mount it? Does romex just get stapled to the wood or do I drill holes through it? Etc...
Best channel EVER! Thank you
I actually ran a 'blank face' gfci for my fridge and another for my freezer, both at height and space so they are visible, and labelled. My dishwasher and washing machine are the same- the gfci is above but behind the machine so it is visible and accessible.
Thanks for down to earth videos
I always just use dual function breakers it makes my life easier for wiring panels and for the purchase of breakers
A great example of arc-fault nuisance tripping is I have a humidifier that cycles on and off, but the bi-metalic strip that cycles the unit has 120v on it and it sparks and trips the breaker, and sometimes it will trip multiple breakers since all my arc-fault breakers are on the same phase. I have to just manually turn the humidifier on and off and keep the "humidity" dial at max so it won't pop the stupid breakers.
Good call. I was going to do what you described with 5 humidifier. Thank God I did not. I was going to have the same problem.
And the best part, the only solution you're going to hear is that you just need to buy new equipment LMAO.
I can't tell you how many homes I've wired over the years. But I can tell you a lot of them change them back to standard breakers after I leave lol
@@Squat5000 THAT is the correct answer. (after inspections are over, remove the damned things.)
Good to know. We upgraded our service and replaced the entire electrical system with dual function protection. We have not installed the two dehumidifiers in the basement yet. One is brand new, the other an older model. Guess I'll run dedicated circuits to them so if there is nuisance tripping, I can just replace the breaker. Thanks for the info
Good explanation Mann!!! Thanks
I have not been really convinced by arc fault detection because all the "evidence" has come from the makers of… AFCIs. However they're in code now (or very close to being mandatory in Europe) so we fit them. Basically I'd fit dual function GFCI-AFCI breakers _everywhere_ unless there is a positive reason not to.
They work, at least sometimes. Installed a whole panel full of them at a friend's residence and two of them kept tripping. We found the wires had been chewed on by some animals. We replaced the damaged wiring and a year later there's not been another issue.
Nuasance trips are a risk especially with certain devices like treadmills which for whatever reason can trip them.
@@nateo200 and this is why i HATE arc fault. I know home builders who put them to pass inspection and get the COI... and then they took them all out, and put normal breakers in to avoid the call backs... and took those breakers down to the next build to use them again on the next house...
GFI are cool... but the Arc Fault constantly nuisance trip.
@@CopeBUILTsounds like those home builders are risking a manslaughter charge.
@@CopeBUILT Having a crappy old device with a motor that is tripping it is the crappy old devices issue, not the breaker.
I am working on a project for my Cabin (off grid solar/generator) and having to run all new electrical for this. The A/C is just a window unit or two and heating is typically just a wood stove. I am curious with the inconsistent environment and down time on the system would you recommend using dual breakers with the minimum of code or would you use dual breakers for the entirety.
Dustin,
Thanks for the video! Seems I should be good to replace all circuits with DF breakers once the FPE panel gets replaced. I don't have a welder at this time but appreciate the clarification in having atleast one dedicated circuit for it in the garage.
Also much easier to monthly test a set of breakers rather than the outlets throughout the home!
12/2 throughout but the panel seems to have MWBC since the breakers share a space? Didn't think you could do that with 12/2?
I don’t think Multi branch circuits don’t work with AFCI. You can use a dual pole gfci breaker with multi branch. I did for my washer dryer and my dishwasher and disposal
@@Silky_boi pardon my ignorance, I'm still learning.
But the issue I'm foreseeing is that I have 12/2 Homeruns throughout, which I believe to be MWBC given the FPE load center runs 12space NA feeding 8space NC sub. 2spaces NC are open, 1space is a Full, the other 5spaces are minis(2ea). I don't see how they could run the minis without shared neutral on a single space?
(It's highly probable there are larger gauge cables for the 60A 2P and 50A 2P but I have not seen them yet. Everything I've found in the attic is white romex stamped 12/2.)
Thanks for sharing.
Dual function is great for meeting both AFCI and GFCI requirements compactly and with lower cost than doing them separately. I don't like adding AFCI (via DF) in retrofits where not required due to nuisance tripping, but new is ok. The lack of requirement for AFCI in commercial environments implicitly shows their challenges in being used everywhere as a safety device.
A common problem in retrofits, specifically older houses, is neutrals from different circuits tied together, and multiwire branch circuits, and I've seen mulitwire circuits on random breakers placed wherever there was space in the panel, so just because you don't see double pole breakers doesn't mean there isn't multiwire circuits in the house, which is a code requirement and a safety issue. A few manufacturers have double pole AFCI breakers in their product line, which can be used in multiwire circuits.
@@Sparky-ww5re Good points! I find multiwire fairly common in late 80s and 90s wiring, and frequently the multiwire is not on a shared trip. Going back to dealing with knob/tube, shared neutral/return was the practice. I've used many 2 pole AFCIs and GFCIs, but I am not aware of any dual function 2 pole breakers, at least not for SqD/Siemens/Eaton.
@@RJ-ej1nr through extensive research, two pole dual function breakers do not yet exist although I can see them being widely available in the next decade if not in the next code cycle or two. The 2020 NEC is already requiring the 30 amp dryer receptacle, and the 50 amp range receptacle if within 6 feet of the sink I believe, to be GFCI protected, and AFCI protection requirements have grown extensively over the last couple code cycles, to include all 15 and 20 amp 120 volt circuits within a dwelling unit, for all practical purposes. Even the 240 volt, 15 and 20 amp receptacle like you might use for a large window air conditioner or large electric heater, is now required to be tamper resistant, so I can see where we're heading in the not so distant future.
Or it shows they aren't as necessary as they claim.
Basically on new residential, we put dual function on everything but the garage plugs, bathroom plugs, and gas furnaces. We still install the standard breakers and GFCI plugs on these because that gives a few circuits that aren’t arc fault mainly for construction. The arc fault part of these DF hate compressors and saws. We are still running off of 2017 code here in Kentucky, supposedly they’re going to adopt both 20’ and 23’ updates sometime in 23’. We started using DF for simplicity, and reliability, DF breakers don’t seem to have the nuisance tripping like AF. We’ve been using Square D, but we’ve had to switch to Siemens lately because of availability of Square D. I hate that because it’s a really good product IMO, and we didn’t have trouble with them. I have anxiety about this new update because I don’t know how HVAC equipment is gonna do on GF. I thought the same with refrigerators but so far only Samsung had the issues, but they must’ve corrected that.
I am an appliance repair technician….i get so many nuisance calls due to the stupid GFI button being “ tripped” …..many people just remove them.
Fun fact: …I have noticed that most manufacturer’s install manuals , specifically state to “ not put the fridge on a GFI….. amazing 😅 (I realize they do not write the electrical code fyi )
I found an article about GFI’s a while back…..it was basically saying that some parts of the county have now gone away from GFI’s…( due to the nuisance tripping)
excellent instructor
Theres been a drift toward afci main panel for residential service panels. Penny for your thoughts on if turning on a vacumm or installing a bad light bulb should be able to remove power from the entire system.
wanted to share with you hoping you read this comment I went to school to become an electrian in chicago il at coyne witch just recently close I was there when the 911 took place graduated but never really got involved with the field afterward because I also tried to get in the union but wasn't able to get a high enough score so I just gave up but also tried to get back involved in the trade because I found my working in warehouses and kept getting the life drain out of me and I couldn't take it anymore because I kept accepting low pay when I know I have much more value but to get to the point ive been trying to reteach myself and its been hard but not to say ive don't remember what I was taught but I've been doing my best to restudying the trade because I would like to do residential work but am not to firmailar what some things I was taught and the course was like a rush course as well but there were some areas I lacked in like conduit venting and wiring a whole house and that s why I wanted to get into the union plus I was younger that I was now but the reason am sharing all this is because you have me teaching new things every time I noticed something you place on the RUclips channel and am thankful for your teaching on RUclips and I wanted to express that to you as gratitude and if you could kept up the awesome job your doing because it help me and others thanks God bless you !!!!
Inverter-based welders which most seem to be nowadays have the power supply and welding circuit separated so it won't trip AFCI. Well, assuming that their noise suppression circuit is up to snuff.
It's weird how complicated stuff is up there. Here in Argentina we have the line and neutral from the meter to a general thermo magnetic "breaker" which trips with overcurrent so your cables don't melt and also with shorts between live and neutral. From that to a differential that trips with ground derivations. Then you add smaller thermomagnetics for each individual circuit in the house, generally 10 amp for lighting, 16 amp for receptacles, and a 20 amp for special use receptacles like ovens and water heaters. And AC units are generally in a separate circuit too
I’d upgrade all my circuits to dual function breakers but they are expensive. I did upgrade my kitchen to a dual function breaker because I remodeled it. Now I’ve got a light switch at the kitchen entrance instead of the kitchen countertop and 3 prong receptacles(With new Romex) for my appliances.
If your house was built before all these code changes, then you don’t need to upgrade every single circuit to AF or DF. You only need to have AF or DF in any new circuit or modified circuit.
So since you remodeled your kitchen, you did the right thing by upgrading its breaker to DF.
👍 great insight.
The challenge I have is that electric ranges and dryers need gfci as well going forward. I have a very hard time finding those breakers and they seem to cost nearly $100.
Yep, that's what I found for pricing on the 240V DF breakers. fortunately, existing installs in homes are grandfathered in under the old rules. It's only new builds, or extensive renovations of old homes, which will need to meet the new requirements (assuming that the state as adopted the latest NEC for their building codes).
Good rationale with which to work!
You are real master thank for ilustración
Can you do a video on private fishing docks with boat lifts? I'm in Florida. Thanks
I gonna come down to a whole household sensored system. Smart programmable breakers are the next step.
Thanks for these videos....Does a dual-function tandem breaker exist to fit a Seimens panel? I cannot find one.
Can arc fault protectors reduce the risk of fire? For instance in a home that has older wiring is it worth investing the money in say dual functions breakers on particular circuits?
I just got a new fridge installed & it’s tripping the breaker multiple times a day, the old fridge was just fine.
the current breaker running it is a CAFCI arc fault breaker and plugged into a regular outlet. Would swapping the breaker to a dual function breaker correct the issue?
Can you do a video on what locations or receptacles does NOT NEED afci or gfci protection
This is cool AF 😎
if you will put afci breaker and add selected gfci receptacles, then that will be more exppensive than dual.....i rewired my house. i just put dual on all
Ive been replacing my 15/20/30 amp circuits with DF breakers, but what is everyone doing for the 50 amp ones? I interpreted My inspectors suggestion that I needed AF and GF for my dryer/ stove and HVAC unit as well. I can't find a 50amp AF anywhere.
in NE FL dedicated equipment circuits like refrigerators washers, dryers, ranges ect are still put on regular breakers , Probably because what a nightmare rollout arc fault breakers had, so many issues with those damn things in the beginning.
So if you put a dual function breaker on everything in the house at the panel, except for bathroom and garage and outside, can you just put regular plugs where GFI‘s are normally placed for example, the kitchen
So I've ran into this issue this past year where an Afci keeps tripping, so I check all the devices, tighten up screws. Try to isolate what the problem is, but it's so intermittent what you think was the problem turns out it isn't and still trips. Almost give up and change to normal breaker. I open the cover move (the same breaker) to the bottom of the panel. Stops tripping. What could be the cause of that? Makes no sense to me.
It's happened only 2 times ever to me, both Siemens panels, both in an orientation where we have a bunch of afci breakers in a row in the top left of the panel. Reseating didn't fix only moving to the bottom of panel. (Even on the same phase seemed to fix the issue)
In older homes this is not as straight forward if the homeowner wants a panel upgrade where lights and outlets are on the same circuit. Now you have to weigh the cost difference between AFCI with GFCI outlets or a DF breaker. The issue comes in whether it is a single bathroom circuit or two bathroom circuit. In other cases, was power brought into the light box and branched out to individual outlets? Not as easy as a structure you wire yourself where you can have separate circuits for lighting and outlets. Some homes just make it more difficult.
With the elimination of incandescent lighting, it is much less of a problem. LED lighting should not be an issue for dual-function breakers. The bigger issue would be shared neutrals causing imbalances on the circuit.
@@TwilightxKnight13 You have to use the more expensive breaker and that was my point. In some homes you have no choice but to use the more expensive dual-function breakers instead of the lesser alternatives to provide the adequate protection that the codes require.
I do kind of wonder if hotels and simular businesses are more subject to the residential or commercial codes since people usually sleep there?
When you are doing a service upgrade are you installing AF breakers on all of the existing Circuits? Or is this applying to new construction only? I am seeing a lot of Service upgrades not getting AF breakers installed in my area in Long Island New York.
If you upgrade you are supposed to make it code compliant with your jurisduction, but the cost of these are probably making people bypass it. In CA these dual functions are upwards of $100.
Always remember, the code is only as required as the AHJ (inspector) makes it. For various reasons, some legitimate, some not, many inspectors allow variations from the code. If your local inspector is not requiting AF protection, and the electricians in the area know that, it is likely they are going to save the cost and just install standard breakers.
If… you use a gfci breaker (!!) on your refrigerator circuit might lose everything in fridge due to nuisance trip if not caught in time.
Correct. Happened to me when I was on vacation. Lost entire food. I changed receptacle to standard. Never again gfci on fridge!!!!
that's no different than if it is on a gfci receptacle.
@@JerseyTom that’s true, but on a breaker is more of a tendency to branch out to other circuits that might cause circuit to trip. Though “load” can be used on gfci receptacle behind fridge, think electricians would be wary to branch out. Also proper grounding wouldn’t require permanently mounted appliances as refrigerators, dishwashers, above oven microwave and ovens to need gfci, imo. I stand to be corrected though.
See my comment on 12/12. Methinks the AFCI on refrigerators might be wonky.
Depends on the fridge, my personal frige is connected to a GFCI because the receptacle is close to the sink, It's been like that for years. I replaced my aunt's frige receptacle with a GFCI and it was a learning experience. It kept tripping and the owners manual said it in plain English "Do Not Use GFCI" connected a regular 20A receptacle and life was good.
Taking it a step further, dual function “receptacles” have saved my bacon with the limited space in my panel (old, unique size, limited circuit capacity). As the first receptacle in my SABCs and dedicated circuits, these meet code and allow me to use dumb double stuff overcurrent-only breakers in my panel, which gives me twice as many circuits!
There is also a maximum amount of circuits you can install in a panel. Not just if you can fit them on the bus. Should be on the label inside the panel. I see that often. Here in Florida, you can't pass an inspection with any tandem breakers in a panel, rather you have to pass inspection and then go back and put any tandems in.
Can't tell you how many times Ive opened a panel and found 10 or more tandem breakers, and now we have to add a much larger panel.
Can I use a dual function breaker in a house with electrical wiring that does not have a ground wires
Where I see this getting tricky is in multiuse areas such as a garage that has washer and dryers in them. (super common where I live) technically you don't need to arc fault protect garages, but you do laundry areas, so do you go dual function on the garage, or just the circuits the washer and dryer are on, ect. I guess this is more a question for my AHJ, but curious what others experiences have been.
Just gfci protection in the garage. It’s by location not equipment.
@@alphasaiyan5760 I can't say I 100% agree sense under article 100 a Laundry Area is defined as: Laundry Area. An area containing or designed to contain a laundry tray, clothes washer, or clothes dryer.
I can see the argument by an AHJ that the equipment in the room is what defines the room. not the other way around.
@@bassman87 yes sir but it can be argued that a garage isn’t designed to be a laundry room and a laundry room is not designed to be a garage. I mean sometimes people have a washer and dryer in their garage but it doesn’t make it a laundry room. Some people could park a car in their laundry room but it doesn’t make it a garage.
@@alphasaiyan5760 By the NEC's definitions, if you put a washer and/or dryer there, it's a laundry area - period. I've seen washer/dryer combos sitting on porches, in bathrooms, in closets, ... (mine are technically in a closet in a bathroom :-) 'tho I would agree, having a duct, hot and cold water taps, and a drain in that "closet" makes it a "Laundry Area") My grandmother's house had the washer in the bathroom, with the drain into the bathtub! (she didn't have a dryer)
and a "room" does not have to be defined by the walls. If you have an area of your garage that contains the washer/dryer, then you essentially have a dual-function space. The part dedicated to the laundry should be treated as such and likewise with the rest of the garage. You do not get to ignore whole sections of the code because you eliminate some walls. What about a truly open design house? What if all the living space is open and the only "room" separated by walls is the restroom? Does the entire house have to comply with the requirements of the kitchen? No, of course not. The same would apply to your garage, but of course the inspector (AHJ) has the final say. The code is merely a guideline. The inspector chooses what to enforce.
So to clarify, a dual function GFCI AFCI breaker is not the same as a combination GAFCI breaker? Also, do you have any videos that discuss troubleshooting an AFCI breaker? I just ran a circuit with (I''ll have to check) and combination breaker for a dishwasher. But, it is tripping even with the dishwasher is not plugged in. The conductors and ground are all testing as not having continuity with the hot wire. So not sure what it is picking up on. But, if I have the wires disconnected from the breaker, and only it's pigtail connected to the neutral bus, it does not trip. So it seems it doesn't like something about the wire run. But, I have also been told it may be the currently main breaker panel where this is connected, as it has the ground wires and neutral wires all intermixed over the 2 busses. The 2 busses are also jumped, so I didn't see why this would matter. Also had someone tell me to remove the bus jumper and connected all the grounds to the bus with the earth ground connected to it (going out to the ground rods), and to move the neutrals to the one without the earth ground. But also had others say that the 2 buses should be done where all the grounds are connected to the one with the earth ground, neutrals on the other, and still leave them jumped - that somehow this not being done could cause false trips of the AFCI break - but that doing this later patter would stop those false trips. The circuit was run with a 20amp breaker using MC cable to a metal outlet box with 12/2 wire. But not happy!
I agree with the inspectors. If you do a modification add AFCI at all appropriate locations on that panel or whatever. Why? Old wire is *more* likely to have a problem than a whole new electrical installation. AFCI's will detect dodgy old wiring with active arcing and prevent fires. It makes total sense to me.
I am scoping out AFCI breakers for my home to be installed in an existing panel. I'm adding no wires, changing nothing. If something in the home works loose I'd prefer the breaker trip rather than the fire alarm go off just before we are about to die. Being an old panel with limited neutral landing spots I will have to be selective. The kitchen, living room and occupied bedrooms are a good start. Some protection is better than no protection.
What about using them on a house with a two wire system that doesn’t have a ground?
So when do we use the ones that have the pigtail vs the ones that are plug on neutral without the pigtail?
I have 2 20amp Dual functionCAFCI & GFCI, one for each side of my kitchen and I’m told fridge should not be on my of these protections due to minor faults being an annoyance trip and food spillage? Am I understanding this correctly?
You can only use the plug on neutral ones if your panel has the plug on neutral busbars
I have a garage with only 2 hots and a neutral running underground to a sub panel. The garage has a ground rod of its own and bare copper conductor ran into the sub panel. The sub panel neutral and ground are unbonded. Is this acceptable or Not? The Main breaker box has a 60 amp breaker that is feeding the garage subpanel.
Acceptable by today's standards? No. The ground needs to be carried all the way back to the main panel (4 wire) and if it's a detached structure it needs at least 1 ground rod (depending on resistance)
So now I have a thought... If I replace my old breakers, can I just can use only dual function arc-fault/GFCI circuit breakers and be done with it? Its my money I can waste it if I want to and provide the best of both worlds. And with Lowes and the 10% military discount. If I can replace them in a 1 for 1 is I am allowed to do that and not rewire the house. Seems like I can and still be in code?
Seems like the cabling is all the same the difference is in the breaker if I finally understand it.
A lot of food has been lost over gfci protection and I guess anything that can nuisance trip . In my own home I make sure my freezer does not have either. Yes I know , but my food is still frozen when I get home .
It can be frustrating. I’m a second year apprentice in Montana and MT doesn’t require the kitchen to be arc-fault protected. So after pulling dozens and dozens of units, it wasn’t until my second year that I realized the code require kitchens to be arc-fault protected. Now whenever I have a test on the Code, I have to fight the instinct to put that kitchens aren’t included in AFCI locations. I know now that the Code says it, but it’s still hard to rethink something I’ve done hundreds of times.
It sure is. State amendments vs NEC can be confusing at test time. I always mark any Code section(s) in my NEC with the highlighted word "AMEND" so I know to go to my printed list of state amendments that are approved for use in the PSI testing center.
I used dual function on all the plugs and lights in house regardless. Overkill, but works. Did not do the fridge.
I think your example of the GFCI receptacle behind the refrigerator fails to comply with 210.8, in that this location does not meet the definition of "readily accessible". So it really shouldn't be a matter of either locating it behind the refer or perhaps installing a DF breaker. Either the GFCI receptacle is not buried behind the refrigerator, or a DF breaker may be considered.
Would you or anyone, happen to know why the factory knockouts are offset on a 4x4 metal junction box on the 2 sides?
Read that they were having serious nuisance tripping AFCI problems with mini split heating cooling units so for awhile you do not have to install AFCI protection.
A friend of mine just had a modest house built. Most circuits have arch fault breakers. Every time he plugs in an electric drill it trips, also his toaster.
If A customer has a series of outlets that aren’t working and they think it’s a GFCI somewhere would replacing the circuit breaker with the door function fix that problem?
you would still need to find and replace the worn out gfci with a regular receptacle, the dual function breaker then provides the gfci protection. The reset button on a gfci is basically like a switch if you just change breaker and there is a bad gfci the current still wont travel past it to fed the rest of the outlets.
Can I put AFCI+GFCI breakers on circuits that already include GFCI outlets, i.e. multiple GFCI protections?
That’s redundant
Yes you can. It won't hurt anything. Just more places to check if it trips.
dumb question...but can electricity jump from a connected 5/8 ground rod too a 1/2 grounding rod -not connected & underground? if so, will it still ground things out?
circuits are not generally completed through the earth
I'm awestruck that basically every breaker in a house is supposed to be an arc fault breaker... And yet they are SO expensive!
And unreliable too. They trip randomly. Turning on a light switch can cause an arc.
About the false tripping of arc fault, seen it happen on a job site. High starting load motors such as a table or chop saw can trip them. So I learned from it that a "workshop", large corded tool, should use regular breakers. Now as you said about arc wielders, I can see that as time moves on and breakers get smarter the requirement for everything being on arc fault happening.
I've only seen this with my very old stuff. All the modern stuff does not seem to trip anything.
Well what about attics? there is alot of places my company will use standard single pole breakers.
Biggest issue I see with Arc Fault breakers is they still trip on wired, brushed power tools. I have to run a hundred feet of cord from a 'sane' outlet to run my circular saw, where ever I need it. I will NOT replace my wired tools as they give me reliable and 'always there' service, through the hardest woods. Battery tools (and I have lots) always have variable speeds through the life of the charge and that is visible especially with fine sanding and hardwood cuts. I do know they could factor out a brushed motor wave/noise profile, but only if someone else visibly pays for it. Oh Well.
Hi Paul, I feel the same as you, I have literally thousands of dollars invested in power tools with electrical cords. It would be way way too expensive to replace all those tools with brand new brushless motor tools. I have always preferred ac powered tools. I am having trouble finding discussions on this topic. Is there any type of repair kit to be able to use power tools with AFCI ? Hoping to find a solution, thanks for any suggestions. Jim
How about talking where or what you can use a standard breaker? Heat/Vent/Light?
Dumb question, should I upgrade breakers to match code in home panel to make things safer because code changes and panels and electrical protection is now different when home was built
It’s going to be a whole easier when every circuit is arc fault and gfci protected on 4/0 wire.
They just have to make the bath fan j box a little bigger.
I think I would feel better and make everything GFCI as I go along. I feal like every year or two I have to replace the GFIC breaker on the PED for my salt water pool. It has its own breaker. I would like to just change the breaker and be done with it.
Really if there is an issue in the electricity it will help show the problems faster. I had a 50 youa garage burn down I think now after watching from parallel Arc to a nail that might have compromised a wire in the damp humid NC area. I think from the description a GFI would have tripped. I don't know the GFIC math yet to know. Anyhow... I am thinking unless running a brush motor I want everything upgraden and just label it to avoid confusion if a repair is needed. Even hair dryers are brushless arc free motors. Possibly my garage shed. My grinder could make a arc. I can have a arc friendly CI on the home that does not require a ext generator to use.
Hopefully I think I am making smarter statements now. Chances are I still have this wrong. GFIC plug easy arms reach, everything on the dual breaker.
Doesn't NEC require all 15/20a circuits in a dwelling to be AFCI protected?
Not all, but pretty damn close and every code cycle adds more. It will not be long before all dwelling circuits, inside and out, will require both AFCI and GFCI with the exception of circuits dedicated to a device whose very function creates arcs like a welder. Equipment/appliance manufacturers also have to continue to refine their devices to reduce/eliminate nuisance tripping if they want to sell any products.
Since Arc Faults and Ground Faults are usually very minor faults, powering your refrigerator or freezer on either an Arc Fault or Ground Fault circuit, thus risking the contents, seems iffy to me.
I've lost count on how many customers have had hundreds of dollars of food cost losses due to gfci nuisance tripping on their fridge/freezer. I would 100% support grudge/freezer being exempt to arc fault and gfci protection.
In my area (New Jersey) all refrigerators are required to be on a dedicated 20A circuit that is NOT GFCI protected.
In my area we are allowed to put a dedicated 20 amp circuit on a standard breaker for the fridge/freezer. I'm in east Tennessee
A good motor will not trip a good GFCI. Cafci ark falt detection has progressed to the point that a good motor will not trip an arc fault. The old cafci breakers were known for nuisance tripping but we are beyond that. That's why cafci breakers are required by code everywhere now.
For what it's worth, my friend and replaced his entire panel in his mobile home a year ago, and put dual function breakers in for everything except the dryer and water heater because those type didn't seem to be available. We had a couple trip immediately when turning on the power,and that was actually caused by damaged wiring. We replaced the damaged wire and in a year there hasn't been a single nuisance trip, including the refrigerator and furnace circuits which are on dual function breakers.
I had second thoughts on the refrigerator and furnace circuits after reading and hearing about nuisance tripping. There hasn't been a single issue in a year though. 🤷
Smart? you are alluding to machine learning or AI AFCIs . Arc-like signatures from inductive/capacitive (motors) and resistive loads (heating elements) as you suggests AFCIs are are being false tripped from arc like waveform signatures. Trip thresholds would also need to be adjusted. You really need good quality power quality meters and a higher sampling portable oscilloscope to capture and see these transients. Surge suppression can reduce some in-rush trips and other filtering can help but then your back to software to capture those false signals as opposed hardwired filters which may only pick-up specific arc like signatures rather than learn about a whole bunch of them depending on loads attached to branch circuits. Not sponsored but I have found the Leviton smartrip pro receptacle to be very good in removing false trips. The only thing that trips it every 6-months or so is the microwave I can live with that as it’s easy and quick to reset.
Do smoke detectors have to be afci protected?
Truly enjoying your videos.
Can you speak specifically to the differences between combination vs dual vs all-in-one breakers? I have an Eaton box. Finishing the basement and it seems to me the all-in-one breakers, although expensive, are the way to go.
Last question - when using all-in-one breakers, is a GFCI receptacle still required for wet bar and bathroom outlets? Seems to me it’s duplicate. 🤔
Dustin,
At 4:17-ish you mention putting a refrigerator on an arc fault interrupter circuit. My home builder friend remodeled his own kitchen and dutifully installed an AFCI. Subsequently he had numerous nuisance trips on his new refrigerator. The local building inspector winked and said if it was his house he'd go with a ground fault interrupter on this dedicated circuit because the compressor motor causes the nuisance trips. Like to know others' experiences on this.
Generally frustrated on nuisance tripping with AFCIs. Motors are typically where the issues are - primarily compressors, but I've seen other motors such as washing machines, shredders, and vacuum cleaners, along with a non motor device - space heaters. Even seen old desktop computers tripping them. Swapping with another AFCI breaker/device has a ~50-50 fix rate initially, but goes down to more like 25-75 over the long term. There's no way to keep a client happy with consistency like that.
In my AHJ they make us GFCI protect refrigerators but we use a normal 20A receptacle then do just the GFCI test buttons on the counter top. Is this normal or does anyone else do this?
I don't know why anyone would GFCI a fridge or freezer. That's asking to lose all your food.
wow electrical materials are cheep in the USA In Canada a GFCI plug is about $40 and a Duel Function 15A breaker is between $100 to $200
C-C-C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!!!!
a man of culture I see.
Why are you looking the 2013 NEC code instead of 2020 or 2023?
Just making sure, those dual function breakers were just for outlets series right? Not light and switches
Man, you said 2013 nec, that's been around long enough that i wish the DF breakers were cheaper already. Sounds like I'd have replace all my breakers. Hate they standardize the wrong breakers with a new electrical panel
I am starting a project to change to arc fault breakers. It seems like I can buy dual function (Arc & Ground fault) for the same price as an arc fault. Would it be ok to switch all the 15 & 20 amp circuits to DF type breakers? Thanks.
the latest code has dual functions for all 120V residential circuits now...
So. Being that everything will be ARC/GFCI protected why not make the main breaker dual function? My coworker from Greece says they already have that in their panels. Then having an argument with the owner of my company- he says the the pigtails from the breakers have to stay coiled up for “resistance”. And he also says you have to add white wire to the coil then to the neutral bar. I started laughing. I said they coil it for packaging purposes. What you guys say about that?
Do you mean you are using the 2023 code book not the 2013 code book?
I am wondering the same!
Why doesn't anyone ever mention the big issue with AFCI in the code. The first device from the AFCI can not be any longer than 50' of wire for 14/2 and 70' for 12/2, that can cause nothing but problems with larger houses..