Four AFDDs Compared - Arc Fault Detection Devices
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- Опубликовано: 5 дек 2019
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As usual a brilliant short lecture and demonstration. You do a great job John and using simple effective equipment.
I love theoretical and practical work, one does not get bored and this is a good point thank you
Excited about this! 😆
Great video John. Thanks for that.
Excellent video John, I think the reason for the short lead on the single module device may be because the primary market is retrofit rather than new installations.Older consumer units tend to be smaller.
It would be interesting to see which ones trip from the arcs generated when you plug/unplug the heater with the switch left on.
Definitely, we'll need that arcing space.
Definitely.
Good to finally see the new jig in operation and what a difference it makes. I was beginning to wonder if that first Eaton part would ever trip. Thanks for posting this series.
You have to consider that you have the breaker in overload, which in most cases is a thermal trip, that will be delayed compared to short circuit protection, which is generally magnetic.
7:00 The Siemens AG is a german company orginally. In the old DIN-Norm and later EN-xx-Norm now in EU we wrote that "red" mean "Power ON! Do not touch!" and "green" mean "Power OFF! Do you can touch on line." If power fault the device should go trip and show "green" for savety.
I know it is crazy for UK people how go on red and stop on green - and drive on wrong side of street! 55555 😜
BTW: The Siemens should have now a yellow button too. But - the EU give companies time to change the production.
The second is that they produce different to country laws; so N on left or right; go in power above or below; one till three phase.
So do you can't found UK models here in Germany but I think in Thailand and Hongkong.
Here in Germany all phase on left, N on right, go in below normally.
Different to main switch (grey trip, 63 A), old models can use from both side normally. In history go in above, then copper link straight to every MCBs. With new one go in below, above go in to RCD, below out and go straight to MCBs, often 3phase. So N on right we order from right to left now - old DIN Design was opposite from left. (Sure, no N between in way.)
Hoply I can figure it out correctly for you. 🤔😜
SIEMENS: Sicher Ist Eines: Man Erhält Nur Scheiße!
Armin Ehrbar - traditionally red or amber (orange) indicated something was on / live in the U.K.
A green indicator generally means something is “healthy” - or functioning normally.
But sometimes red indicates fault or error.
It is my opinion that no one should rely on any colour coding, EVER...
Thank you for this.
Well, we hope you had a nice trip! :D
#w. GSH Electrics
Very interesting. Thanks for the video
Interesting video. I have one of those double wide Wylex units at home. Maybe I will change it.....
11:38 We named it "TE", one Teilungseinheit, Wiki say "division units" (DU) in english for have more space. In Germany a normal consumer unit have 12 TE/DU, maximal have three in a row (3x12) normally.
Rare old models have 24 TE/DU (for old L1/L2/L3 rails) in one row. Same situation in Thailand and shorter or longer models used widely; e.g. 2, 6, 9, 14, 16. At 16 DU for one main, and RCB are 4 DUs, so do you have 12 TEs for MCBs free.
We use in Germany 3 phase normally so every row earn one phase (old style) or we sorted it L1, L2, L3, L1, ... starts with RCB 3phase, MCBs ...
The new EU norms talks that RCBs should use smaller way, at best every line, e.g. one for oven, boiler, bath room, light bathroom, sockets living room, light living room, aso. So now combi RCD/MBCs are true sin for save space in consumer unit!
My own consumer unit in my rented appartment in Germany have only one RCB, mean if it tripped I stay in the dark in night. 😱
We not change consumer units every five years same you did it in UK. Our are often mounted inside the stone walls.
Thanks to to the new Regulations from 2020, we do too now change the Consumer Units as they have now to be build to the same new Standard (1100+APZ). I already got my Hager System 80 taken out of the Wall and now it is just a Wall mounted Box.
Towards the end I was sure I could smell the ozone from the arc :)
DC arcs are far more fun. AC arcs are boring. They extinguish every half cycle 😕
I would like to see a test with appliances with brushed motors inside, to see if they trip.
Considering the IET are ramming these down our throats I am struggling to see the value in them since it seems no two of them are the same and how expensive they are.
nice video, but i'm missing ABB and Schneider, two major European devices manufacturers, do you have any idea how those two perform? Regards
After all the eaton worked pretty sensitive. The new test RIG / JIG with brass contacs make the magic arc ? Does a switch that may arc trips the more sensitive RCD / AFDD? Jesus the last one it could be seen the arc flashing on the shadow at 13:46. The close up is nice :D Thanks for the video. Bzzzzz
So the grand arc off has occurred!
What a device.
@Mister Brookes From Wikipedia: "In the US, arc faults are one of the leading causes for residential electrical fires.[4] Each year in the United States, over 40,000 fires are attributed to home electrical wiring. These fires result in over 350 deaths and over 1,400 injuries each year.[5]"
AFDD's have been mandatory in new US installs since at least 2014. For some reason Europe and Britain have been much slower in adoption. This is surprising considering the Brits are highly paranoid with their electrical codes (fuses in cords, no light switches in bathrooms, GFCI at the breaker box, etc.). Of course, with ring circuits (invented due to the copper shortage in WWII) it is smart to be paranoid.
@Mister Brookes Adding RCD's to every circuit does nothing to stop arcing since RCD's are not designed to detect arcing. Fuses in plugs are superfluous and not going to happen. Again the only reason Britain has fused cords in the first place is because of all the ring main circuits over there. That's not "a thing" here (everything is "branch" or radial). Putting fuses in cords makes a lot of sense on a ring main since the circuit breaker is rated way above each individual socket. (You might have a 6A toaster on a 30A circuit - that is obviously a problem without a fused cord). In the U.S., that toaster will be rated at 15A, the same as the circuit breaker protecting it. On a ring main, the breaker wont trip; the thing will simply burn unless it has its own fuse.
It takes a few minutes for a circuit breaker to trip in an overload condition, but an arcing cable might not cause an overload or trip short circuit protection. So what are you going to do when the little old lady has a lamp cord with a fray in it that she doesn't know about? A fray that comes into contact with her carpet or a curtain. That's a house fire waiting to happen. All the RCD's in the world (and circuit breakers) aren't going to stop it. Enter the AFCI (AFDD).
Of course, the U.S. is on 120V which means higher currents (most residential circuits are 15 or 20A). So when arcing does happen, it can be more dangerous here.
I don't have an AFCI in my home, since it was built before 2000. But you can buy them that will go into individual sockets (much like GCFI's). Over here our GFCI's are typically installed at the socket/outlet and not in the breaker box ("consumer unit"). This has an advantage of making it much easier to narrow down the faulty device while not cutting power to the entire home. The downside to this approach is that not every single circuit is protected. But protecting every circuit isn't required by code anyway. Only circuits which might come into contact with water must be protected by GFCI since that's what they were invented for - people were being killed by coming into contact with electrical outlets while wet (dropping hair dryers into the bathtub, etc. Incidentally, this isn't a problem today because all hair dryers must come with their own internal GFCI installed in the plug). In any case, all bathrooms, kitchens, laundry rooms and outdoor outlets (including garages and other out buildings) must have GFCI protection (it's up to the electrician whether that is installed at the breaker box or individual outlets - as long as the specified circuits are protected, either method is acceptable).
Now let's debate 120V vs. 240V. Go!
John Smith - The U.K. electrical system does permit wall mounted light switches in bathrooms, toilets and shower rooms. RCD / GFCI are not mandated to be in the consumer unit (breaker box) for all circuits, separate RDC sockets can be used where needed depending on the type of wiring, the circuit design and function. Combined RCD & MCB units in the consumer unit for the socket outlet circuits are a fast and convenient way to provide reasonable protection in a reasonably modern MCB type consumer unit without the added expense of a new consumer unit. I have this arrangement in my consumer unit and don’t experience nuisance tripping.
Fuses in plugs and fuses in fixed connection units are designed to protect the flexible electrical cord.
Radial circuits that can supply socket outlets can be rated at 15A (fuse), 16A (MCB), 20A (MCB), 30A (fuse) or 32A (MCB). Not all sockets have to be on a ring circuit. Whatever the original reason for the ring circuit, the modern ring allows as many socket outlets as you like (within reason) to be fitted. This is very convenient now that there are so many mains powered electrical appliances / items / gadgets.
John Smith - How do you figure that 120V domestic circuits have higher current faults? Think about a 240V 20A or 32A radial circuit, or a 32A ring circuit. I think you will find the fault current significantly more than on a 120V 15A or 20A circuit.
Electrical fires: www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/1592/fire-factsheet.pdf
www.aci.org.uk/news/government-statistics-reveal-fall-cable-related-fires
Concidering the expence of these, I think the results are worrying! Is there to be a test incorporated in MFTesters?
aww :-( everyone was rooting for the single module wylex.
Great idea in theory, but then they'll sell them to you at through the roof prices while the practical part it is still being solved.
Wonder if it would be more effective to have a single computer / embedded system doing the monitoring for each circuit. Hmm.
I want to know what happens if a switch is opened slowly will it trip then, also what happens if you use a welder on the circuit, I pressume they work by detecting the HF produced by the arc. I would think that these things are going to be a big source of trouble in the future.
Very informative
Great video!
Great informative video, I believe that AFDDs are a basic requirement in domestic dwellings in the USA perhaps less costly due to much higher volume sales. I'm guessing that in a later edition BS7671 the AFDD will be a safety requirement on new builds. Expensive as AFDDs are an example like a not very apparent compressor arcing fault at the back of a fridge is IMHO a good reason to be gravitating to fitting AFDD(s)
Read this paceforensic.com/pdfs/Circuit_Breakers_The_Myth_of_Safety.pdf
Not seen ant videos of RCD's MCB's ran with over load under IR heat gun just to see how long it takes to trip along with other types
Would the results be the same if there were any other low resistance parallel paths other than your test rig/ apparatus and a load?
Would you be up for comparing some more modern AFDDs now that a handful of manufacturers have single module offerings?
I would love to see some controled DC arcs
Don't worry people these are Automatic fault detection devices but they seem to be based on some sort of TDR (Time Domain Reflectometer) technology indicating the presence of potential faults such as high resistance joints in the wire rather than anything to do with arc / smouldering point detection ??
Why do afci/gfci's lose their effectiveness after they trip once? Had a gfci/rcd breaker trip in the panel, then repeatedly tripped after, replaced with a new afci and no more tripping, circuit is completely identified as well, it ran bathroom lights, when a bulb blew it took the afci?
I hope none of your neighbours are Radio Amateurs John - They'll love your spark gap transmitter !!
Eric - G3TVR !!
My thoughts exactly. 😀
I expect they'd have an aneurysm at my big old incandescent series loop christmas lights with the mechanical "flicker effect" module.
Yes agree, I thought spark gap transmitters were illegal to operate, they were when I took my RAE.
Wylex fail at £150 a pop !
Is there any need for these below 16a?
Can you get these AFDDs without the circuit breaker component so they can be used instead of the plain RCDs in a consumer unit?
One thing I’m curious about would the afdd also detect a fault downstream of the device on the supply side? Wouldn’t that have the same effect on the current? Suppose it has some clever electronics to differentiate though. Excellent videos thanks and merry Christmas.
They shouldn't - most likely has filtering on the incoming supply side, which is also why they must be connected correctly.
Nice test rig set up there John.
Please repeat - same AFDDs but with parallel fault. Maybe those insensitive units will trip quicker ?
This also creates a question series or parallel - if you have a 4A heater load and set up with a parallel arc via another 4A load, will the unit detect the fault as series or parallel ?????? What secondary current is need for them to recognise as a parallel fault ??
@@pineappleroad Absolutely see no reason why not. It's just a second load with a dodgy connection.
@@pineappleroad Precisely - i.e. another load !
Well, it looks like Siemens has some homework to do, which doesn't surprise me. I had to put a bunch of them in a home I just built, and I've since removed several that nuisance tripped repeatedly. The problem seems particularly bad with power tools that use brushed motors. There's one circuit in my garage that trips if I try to run a miter saw on it, but another circuit with an identical breaker works fine. My electrician said even driving staples too tight when wiring the home can cause nuisance trips. Incidentally, the breakers in my home are all made by Siemens. John, what has been your experience with these things WRT nuisance tripping?
Here in the States these are mandated in certain locations and they can be hell. Friends built a large beach house in 2013 and just after the warranty period expired they had about 75% of them replaced. We don’t have EICR’s here but the electrician was doing basically one of them to test the wiring. They currently cost about $60 here, I forget the price 10 years ago.
how do you select a device for an applicaion without testing them all?
What about Heaters etc with thermostats ….. - as they reach temperature -- thermostat opens .. and arcs ? ( Well they may have arc suppression components … but even so … I wonder …. )
all switches ect will arch to a degree.
@@UberAlphaSirus - Exactly. The idea of an AFDD is to detect an arc that is occurring under genuine fault conditions.
To do this reliably requires the current flowing in the circuit to be monitored continuously - and any deviations of that current occurring in a short duration due to "arcing" are analysed - and if the "signature" of that analysis fits the definition of an "arc" - then the device trips. ( And therein lies a HUGE multitude of questions …. when is an arc NOT an arc ???)
The problem with all of this "monitoring" is that : all this is occurring in circuits that traditionally will have a certain degree of background "electronic" noise associated with them and so reliably establishing that a genuine "fault" arc has occurred becomes difficult. ( when is an arc NOT an arc but just noise from "intentional switching ?? Arc welders anyone !! )
ESPECIALLY if the load current is small - so that the "wanted signal "Noise"" generated by the arc becomes closer to the background noise . That is - the monitoring electronics and software has to differentiate between "wanted" noise ( arcs) and Unwanted noise when the two levels become close - ie : what radio engineers call "signal to noise ratio and if signal level and noise level become close - then detection becomes unreliable - and I believe that is why some of the AFDD's didn't trip - that is - there is a certain "noise floor level blanking " in the detection circuitry to avoid nuisance tripping ) ……..
…... …. note that John's tests started at 2.2 amps ! - so think about that in terms of say using a 6A AFDD powering say a typical domestic lighting circuit powering a few LED lights - totalling say 200 w or so ( less than 1A at 230 V RMS !! -
Lets see how well these devices work at low currents ?!!
@@eric4709 cheap shitty powersuplies will create a lot more background noise wich makes this even more useless combined with the cheap chinese LED bulbs
Great video as always John. Would be interesting to see how other loads affect the results, to make it a bit more real world. Perhaps an extra couple of heaters connected and a nice big SMPSU and a motor but still have the arc occuring on the same heater.
Inductive loads produce bigger arcs when you disconnect.
Oh dear....very good arc-off but a poor showing from Wylex! I’m sure it was just the wrong sort of arc!! 🤔 glad I didn’t replace my units at home! It was planned for January and will now be postponed for a while. Good work John.
@@UCCLdIk6R5ECGtaGm7oqO-TQ Better that than burning your house down before tripping.
Keep thinking a Perspex safety guard would have let me relax a bit more 😂
Thanks for the video :)
Hey John, could you please do a video on dry and wet contacts? Thanks in advance.
That terminology isn't generally used in the UK - it's usually volt-free for 'dry contact'.
The difference is that volt free or dry contacts have no voltage on them, it's just a switch that can be used with any voltage. Wet contacts are those that already have a certain voltage connected to them and can only be used to control things that work at that particular voltage.
My CU is full of RCDs and breakers, I'm never going to be able to swap them all for AFDDs :D
Poor Wylex, not good for them, I won't be using them
Hi John, was there any notable pitting in the make shift terminals after extensive arcing?
No, just some blackening of the surface.
@@jwflame You're a legend John, cheers ;)
Eaton certainly came out a lot better in this vid than the last! I'm glad you did a follow up!
Nice one Mr Ward, I could smell the arc from here, isn't technology wonderful😂
been following your videos for a while now
so not sure if i have allready ask for your advice on this as i am new to this youtube stuff let alone electics , been in the game a few years now and learning every day as i took the easy way in , just went and took the exams to be domestic installer 17th edition 3 ammendment but every day is a learning day and after christmas i intend to take the 18th and the join nappit just need to brush up on the testing , i watch you and DSS , So at the risk of repeating my self sorry if i am , i have this fault that i cannot put my finger on , so im asking for your opinion on this fault .
old mk board single rcd mainn switch . i installed a 10mm swa to run a hot tub bit over kill i know but this was to future proof for an extension commng soon as i will split at incommer and put new board later , but wen i tested RCD it failed to trip, then i noticed that the solar on the roof was protected by a RCBO which i dont thint you can have with a single RCD.. so i removed the RCBO replaced it with a MCB now it trips the RCD ok.BUT........ sice i have done this the customer has told me that the board trips every day around 7:30 am moreso in the rain ....
the only thing to change was previously mentioned so i have put the RCBO back and now no tripping , i am in the process of getting hold of the solar contractors , but would be intersted in your thought ,
or anyone who reads this
Kindest Regards Steve
Solar installations must be connected to their own individual RCD, or their own RCBO.
If it's tripping every day at 7.30am that suggests the solar inverter has been connected wrongly, so that when it starts to output power, it's feeding that power into the wrong side of the RCD/RCBO, or the neutral is connected in the wrong place.
RCDs not tripping at all could be due to DC being present on the conductors, or some other fault in the installation, or even the RCD itself being faulty.
@@jwflame
hi John
this is what i thought but there is only one neutral bar in the instalation and i didnt think that you can have a rcbo with only one neutral bar
the current rcd trips within time but not with the rcbo connected
soon as the rcbo is in curcuit rcd fails to work at all
i am thinking to suggest take out rcd and mcbs and replace with rcbos
would be pleased to hear your thoughts
nd just watced you at ghs college video
great mate
if you put Eaton AFDD in your house your need an extra AFDD roon.. gigantic ... also I dont see any arcs, this thing will trip anytime you pull the plug of your running vacuum cleaner
Why were you having so much trouble getting the Eaton one to trip in a previous video, but now it trips very quickly?
More current - 2.2A in this one, less than 1A in the other one.
@@jwflame - So - As I've mentioned above - are we saying that AFDD's as currently offered wont reliably sense arcs occurring in low load ( say less than 2A or so ) situations ?
As I also mentioned - a "noise floor" limit in the detection circuitry / software to avoid nuisance tripping ?
Looking at this as a Radio /Electronics Engineer ( and a Radio Amateur Too !!) - I can see a forest of question marks surrounding AFDD's. especially in low load situations .
I wouldn't like to be on the AFDD development team trying to define " When is an Arc an Arc ? - looking at transients occurring over short periods of time - and deciding whether to trip or not !!
@@eric4709 Correct - of little use under about 2 amps.
I certainly won't be getting wylex
I won’t be getting any of these AFDDs.
I can’t get over the price of these things - almost £200 for that Wylex 1u module!!
Wullie Stewart .....will be £50 in a few years
Wullie Stewart - I wonder which microcontroller it uses. Most microcontrollers now cost less than £8. And a lot cost as little as £1.
Is there an actual need for these in most installations? Or is it just a new development for the sake or it?
Depends on who you believe. Personally, there is no way I am paying money to have AFDDs in my home. This makes interesting reading paceforensic.com/pdfs/Circuit_Breakers_The_Myth_of_Safety.pdf
It's trying to solve faulty wiring by adding an extremely expensive and "intelligent" device with questionable longevity itself.
1) I wonder how an AFDD can distinguish between a fault condition and carbon brushes in an electric motor which also draw (tiny) arcs?
2) Does it work when the mains is galvanically isolated by a transformer inside a device (or if one uses an isolation transformer)?
Brush motors usually include filtering (parallel capacitors, and sometimes series inductors) to reduce RF emissions. (It's possible for the capacitors to degrade though.)
Hi John, would you personally recommend these devices?
In some cases. They are certainly not appropriate for all circuits or situations.
@@jwflame so people shouldn't be replacing all their mcb or rcbos with these new afdds.
I can only see a major benefit in having them if the building is a bungalow with or without a thatched roof that has all circuits running in the loft space due to arcing caused by rodents damaging the cables. Even then, an assessment could be made to install mechanical protection to all the cables in the space to prevent this and would most likely be more cost effective than what a fully loaded AFDD board would cost currently. Based on a perfect installation with no DIY junction boxes floating about.
Would be interesting to see how susceptible these are to nuisance tripping (poorly engineered switches, brushed motors ..etc ..etc)
Otherwise these could end up being a very expensive pain in the ass that offers limited arc protection considering we all know electrical arching can generate enough heat to start a fire well below 1A!
They are designed to only trip on very specific types of arc, so theoretically won't trip for things like switches and motors. There will be more videos on these things.
Does this mean I will no longer be able to use my welder?
No.. As long as its oxy-acetelyne 😂
Dedicated circuit, before the AFDD. :-)
its a shame NO standard in led color indications its a joke , layman just keep resetting one that trips
Why are there no 3-phase AFDD-s?
They can and probably do exist, the standard certainly has provision for them in both 3 pole and 4 pole versions.
However their main intent is for final circuits with equipment connected, which is almost always single phase, so it's a case of most manufacturers making what's likely to be required and used.
Good
1 Slightly dodgy switch
999+ Nuisance trips
Could they not just make a 63amp one to cover the whole switchboard?
It could be more coarse. Which would eliminate nuisance tripping. Keep the fine ones for individual circuits.
Probably, but then you have the entire installation being disconnected when any fault occurs, which is not compliant with BS761. Same reason that a single RCD for the whole lot doesn't comply.
@@jwflame It no big deal if the whole board goes off, better than not having anything. BS761 is so full of holes you can comment ether way and still be correct.
@@jwflame sounds like a silly rule. Just install emergency lighting!
The CSA of your contacts do not simulate a real life series arc with say a broken piece of 2.5mm.. you are generating an unrealistic amount of arcing with an oversized contact. In my opinion these devices are just a money making scam, that do very little in stopping fires as proven by the no trip scenario at 2.5amps.. that all said, great video John!!! Keep them coming
Good demonstration thanks, but another thing we do not need. If the installation is correctly installed and has a periodic test, then this is another way the manufacturers will make money out of us. Also this is the IEE forcing there will again on us to justify there existence.
Wylex didn't do too good lol. I have had 2 Wylex RCDs fail to trip in the required time in the past too. You think buying a good brand is always better. I have had zero call back on BG RCDs.
John. You better take a look at Mainly Electrical channel. This chap has run some pretty standard easy tests in these and generating a hell of an arc by mimicking a loose contact. The devices never tripped. Very concerning and misleading
Im horrified and mystified as to how siemons made something thats essentially junk!
their stuff is usually top notch, but here, the eaton and proteous are the ones you want.
I really don't understand why the test isn't done with a cable stuck in the door, a weeak wire ia a soket or a hole screw, I don't know what other examples, we test with a micrometer... I give 150-2050 $ to play with a micrometer, because only then it disconnect , on good?!. Until someone manages to make it disconnect to real defects and not micrometers and screws, it's not worth 2 bucks, you'd better give it to a beggar..
These items are waste of money at the moment - maybe they will improve over time ?
Did you ever get feeling this just another scam.
try some better loads like a microwave or similar things :-D
How many ( technology) British companies have been sold off cheap, shame on those carpet baggers,
Hold on. One question: What kind od accent should I study, to follow this guy? I'm Polish.
What a load of crap, more than half of properties will have constant faults which will have nothing to do with arcing.
The second and fourth AFDDs should be banned from sale
Boring the shit out of me