I'm guessing the lack of sensitivity to arcing may be due to having to play super-safe with all the electrically noisy electronic power supplies and motors in modern appliances. I can't help feeling that they are going too far with their endless desire to complicate domestic installations. 240V problems tend to be somewhat more decisive than 120V ones. I could see something like this being more useful in a place like America due to their lower voltage carrying a greater arcing risk. This is also probably going to be another breaker where electrical separation has been compromised due to the need to jam electronics inside it. Unlike most RCDs with very simple electronics I would expect this one to have a reasonable power supply in it that may affect its usable lifespan. I'm also wondering how much power - both real and apparent this thing draws in standby. If it has a capacitive dropper or switching supply in it then it could make a significant contribution to electricity costs over a year. Especially if apparent power metering is applied.
Also the USA often has the small 'pole pig' type transformers. The short circuit capacity (and by extrapolation the arc fault value) tends to be lower too... so a dead short might not even alert the person who caused it to the event. Happened to me in Iowa, I used a category '0, you're shitting me' test probe in an outlet. The tv went off. No bang, no flash, nothing. My wife had to take me to the fusebox (USA style edison 'plug' fuses) to show that i'd actually blown a 20 amp fuse with no visible trauma. LOL
@@TheChipmunk2008 Your thinking more of prospective fault current under short circuit conditions. Lower with small transformers and generators. The arc detection is to detect bad connections that are arcing even at low current.
A device that does little just so some more cash can be made ! Soooo All we need now is a 12 foot long consumer unit as we have 3 ways used for each circuit, a very understanding inspector as the device was at the brink with the RCD - I wonder how those it will perform when on the other end of a 220M run - needed to be hit with arcing for a long period right at the tip of the max cct load (how many 32A ring mains do you see that are normally loaded to 30A) diversity anyone ? AND you are going to have to lock the breaker in a cupboard as the VERY FIRST THING the EU is going to do is reset the breaker...... Oh dear there goes your record of what supposedly caused the trip. Never mind perhaps there is another bit in the regs we have yet to see that will involve using another 4 ways to install a logging printer so we have a record. I wonder how it will perform as Clive points out with a nice mixture of inductive and other loads introduced. So to summarise .... Spend longer on site for the install and testing. Use a much larger consumer unit. Spend more on parts and time. Install acropropps under the consumer unit to support the now sagging casing due to the weight of the 12 foot long bus bar. Spend a wasted day on site chasing a fault that may not be there. What about induced EM from a thunder storm..... Its the sparks at the sharp end who are going to have slice more out of profits as I cant see the end user offering to pay the extra. This could be fine when you have the chance of heavy duty contactors wearing out or other very rare situations but as Big C points out this is more suited to American sparcs ! I bet this has been sneaked in by the EU... TOTAL JOKE.. Oh and someone make Clive a cuppa, after his recent part P rant we don't want to loose him ! Thank you bringing this into the light John :-)
We feel similarly in the States. The original push for AFCIs was to protect against arcing due to compromised extension cords and damaged receptacles in bedrooms. Now as of 2017 NEC, they're required nearly everywhere, and to make matters more annoying, they're for the first time a required upgrade if any receptacle is replaced on a given circuit. I have one that I removed from service that was false tripping after just 2 years of service...I should send it over to you so you can give it a proper autopsy.
Not trying to have a go at US wiring so please don't take offence...... Was the push for arc detection anything to do with the way US plugs don't have a lot keeping them in. When I was over there the socket strip I had my phone and alarm clock plugged into kept popping out of the wall plug. If you hit the cable it just came out. It didn't strike me as a firm termination. Do you ever have any arcing in the twist on terminals I have seen being put on ? They don't seem to be a very good way to make a solid termination. Do you ever get HR faults or wires coming out of them. Just curios and as I said .... No offence intended.
John, so sorry to hear that AFDDs have made their way across the pond! Many of us here in the States hate AFCIs (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters), they don't do their jobs effectively, but what they will do is nuisance trip for vacuum cleaners, laser printers, HAM radios turned to 20 meters, etc. We can only hope that as they make more of them, the manufacturers produce ones that actually work (ha!) I've never understood why here in the US we didn't require more GFCIs/RCDs, which have been proven to protect life and property over and over again, are easy to test, and which provide real protective value. Oh well, we don't make the codes, we just follow them :-/
BTW The codes are actually just a minimum requirement. You can put more safety equipment in, but of course the cost is higher and reliability is lower.
@@zvpunry1971 The first generation AFCIs were extremely sensitive to the 20 meter band (14MHz), and there's a good video of a panel full of Eaton AFCIs tripping at 17m (18MHz). 30m (10MHz) was also a popular trouble spot. They appear to have improved (my panel has AFCIs identified as "Gen 5"), but still nuisance trip with laser printers and some vacuum cleaners. I'd much rather they can the AFCI requirement altogether and instead require equipment protection GFCIs (typically a 30mA trip) on circuits where AFCIs are now mandated.
Our new house here in the states used these for every circuit in the house. Fumbling around with the light switch would trip them, but more annoyingly a brand new mains powered vacuum would trip them as well. Only way I could find to keep them from tripping is to plug in a bunch of switchmode power supplies into the same outlet the vacuum was plugged into, presumably they were suppressing the noise from the vacuum
Thanks for doing this John, and thanks for showing the little trick with the RCD's selectivity' issue.. I may borrow that.. so it's looking like these devices do little next to nothing for loads up to 8 Amp which is a complete contradiction to most of the scare mongering marketing material out there.
Sparky ninja... I saw your reaction to these at your tresham college visit video, you didn't seem convinced? Me neither... Glad JW did some tests, but there's more theories to be tested. It's pretty inconclusive to me. Are these things designed to trip on certain loads? I like the idea but seems like a money making scam to enhance regs even more an keep the money coming in. Its sad times if it is. 😣
These things have been required in the states for some time now. At first it was only required on certain circuits, usually bedrooms. Shortly after that, it became mandatory to use these things on virtually every circuit. It all depends on the local codes and local inspector/ authority having jurisdiction. Some require these for EVERY circuit, some are more sensible and require them only for general outlet and lighting circuits. Either way, these things are awful. Here in the states, the average price for a standard circuit breaker is between 5-10 dollars, where the AFCI - arc fault circuit interrupter - breakers are 40-50 dollars. This has increased the cost of breaker panel installs (consumer units for you Brits) astronomically. Considering the average North American residential breaker panel has 20+ breakers, you can see how much this would increase the cost of installing a new panel. We use radial circuits exclusively, as ring final circuits are illegal here. The other major problem with these is virtually any electrical noise will trip them. Vacuum cleaners, power tools, and anything with a brushed motor or high inrush current will nuisance trip these things even though there is no actual fault. The National Electrical Code, having embraced these wretched things lock, stock and barrel has done the population a huge disservice. I am a contractor by trade. I do many varied tasks, but my schooling was in electrical. In my parent's last home, they wanted me to install hardwood flooring in their bedroom. I couldn't use either of my saws (table saw and compound miter saw) or my air compressor in the bedroom because of these breakers. How is it safer for me to run extension cords down the hall and down the stairs into the basement to use an outlet that wasn't on one of these breakers so my tools would work? These things are just insanity. We recently built an addition on our home and this required a sub-panel to be installed in the new section. Of course they required these arc fault breakers to be installed in the sub-panel. Well, wouldn't you know, my mother's sewing machine trips the breaker every time she steps on the pedal to operate it. After the final inspections, those breakers got taken out and traditional breakers put in their place. Even the inspector agreed that these things are more of a pain than they're worth, and said if they happened to get replaced after he signed off on the inspection, he wouldn't be upset. Say what you will about an inspector like that, he was only being realistic. I'm sure he's fielded plenty of complaints about these breakers.
So a big corp invented the thing and then lobbied for a law to be put in place to make sure plenty are sold, and that would be the only reason why they exist in the first place (at least for homes)?
That's pretty much how I see it. These things are not generally required in commercial or industrial applications as far as I know, and no industrial organization would tolerate the down time these things create. They seem to be only required in residential new construction or if there's a substantial remodel. In my area if the cost of the remodel is more than 50% of the property value - or some similar percentage- you are required to bring the entire structure up to current code. This means all new electrical with these dreadful breakers, in addition to any plumbing, building, fire, or similar updates. Once you hit that magic number the building is no longer "grandfathered" and must have EVERYTHING brought up to current code specs. These things are a complete farce, and John did a good job showing it. Look how much arcing it took before it finally tripped. Which is odd, since the ones here in the states are the complete opposite, tripping at the mere whiff of an arc. I'm not kidding about my table saw, it's not like it would run for a moment then trip the breaker, as soon as you flipped the switch the damned arc fault breaker would pop. No, there's nothing wrong with my saw. I still have it, and use it all the time. On some arc fault breakers it seems to work ... ok... on some, it doesn't work at all. There seems to be no consistency on how these things trip and at what threshold they do so. Maybe the code has specified the characteristics, but I've never seen them. All the inspectors do to test them is first make sure they're actually installed, then they use a little plug in tester like the sort with the three neon indicators for checking outlets except it has a button on it that trips GFCI and AFCI breakers. As long as the breaker pops when he pushes the button, its a pass. It's a complete joke.
Well, looking at the fact that every brushed (universal) motor say in a vacuum cleaner or drill has arcing going on at the brushes.. It doesn't look like an easy job to detect real faults. Every time you plug something active in a socket it will arc a little bit. Switch mode powersupplies with no real off switch also make arcing noises when you plug them in. Yeah... I don't see it.
I agree with your philosophy on the insane use of these devices for domestic purposes. I lived and worked in Canada for 30 years and the standard breakers and GFI worked great. My only beef is the sockets (receptacles) and plugs are Mickey Mouse in their design. The three pronged plug with the earth (ground) connection is usually at the bottom of the plug when inserted and invariably the plug can get knocked out of the socket easily. The lack of a positive tight connection when the blades of the plug are inserted makes them candidates for potential arcing at the receptacles. They are not a patch on the design and robustness of MK sockets and other leading brands in the UK. Plus the use of ‘Maretts’ (not sure about the spelling) is ancient because if overly twisted they can break one or more of a conductor in a bunch. That’s my rant over.
That "DIMMER" might mean time delay, so it tripped with delay (cause of not significant, non-inductive arcing, also the arc symbol is smaller in that graphic instructions) i think if you ran some motor and did the arc test, it would trip instantly and would show 1st position with one yellow blink.
In practice, it is VERY hard for electronics to tell the difference between electrical noise that results from normal usage of appliances and the waveform changes caused by an arc. So in my humble opinion, these so call arc protection devices are a waste of money and resources. I would rather people spent their money on having their electrical system checked by a real qualified and experienced electrician.
Unfortunately in Canada, they're required by the wiring code in bedroom circuits. I have heard of them being installed to pass inspection and then having them removed and replaced by a conventional breaker.
In America. It is required that all circuits that Supply the inside of the house must have an arc fault protection. so when it comes to kitchens and bathrooms you have that and a GFI. But people do have problems with them when they have a ceiling fan in a bedroom.
Good video, John. The nuisance tripping is a big, big problem. Eaton seems to have resolved that pretty well with the breaker you demonstrated. Just don't trip :-) The AFCI detects current fluctuations so the operation is especially tricky in 240V countries, compared to the US where the current is twice as large. It's tricky enough in the US. A refrigerator is a very critical appliance where you DO NOT want nuisance tripping. If you have a second refrigerator that you don't use everyday, it can be a disaster if the breaker trips and you don't notice it. Try to avoid AFCI's on refrigerators whenever possible. If necessary, you can plug in a battery operated alarm at the same socket to let you know if the breaker trips. .
Thank you again John for taking the time and effort to demonstrate the proposed new device. Personally, I think they are over the top for a domestic installation as others have said the CU will be massive, besides, most arcing ends up causing a short circuit which would be picked up by the usual devices anyway.
Great video, great to get a insight into AFDD's.Just a note from what I was taught as college the trip time for a RCD at x1 is 300ms and at x5 was 40ms.
John, a cracking video. Worth staying a huge difference between UK and American systems. Whilst similar in principle very different. This video is a great public service given the marketing of some companies show bedside cabinets with lamps next to sleep kids and it evidently needs high current faults to work.. You have done the first public test video.. Well done.. love the badge 😬👍
Yes you can imagine that if it was sensitive to the crap switches in lamps it would always be tripping . I can imagine that a dc version would be useful for string inverters .
I think it might be difficult to find a good balance between sensitivity and nuisance tripping. You wouldn't want this thing to go off every time you flip a switch. But at least it should detect arcs that create enough heat to cause a fire, otherwise it's useless.
Hi John, thank you for taking the time to take a closer look at Eaton AFDDs. Although relatively new for the UK, the technology has been in place now for a number of years in other European countries and North America. As you would hope, our products are tested in controlled conditions to meet relevant IEC/BSEN requirements. I have a meeting with one of our technical leads later this week after which we will contact you directly to provide additional feedback on the points raised. Thanks again for taking the time to review our offer - Marc Gaunt - Segment Marketing Manager - Eaton Electric.
Arcs tend to come from loose screw terminal connections. So if these are eliminated the need for an AFDD is reduced or even eliminated. Having screwless terminals makes an installation much, much safer. The likes of the Wago type of connector and screwless terminals on sockets, switches, appliances, MCBs, RCBOs, etc, will pretty well eliminate the need for AFDDs.
There are sellers of some Eaton equipment here in the Czech Republic. But the things are over 10 times more expensive than competition, so they only really sell them to parties who spend somebody else's money. The arrangement seems to be a mid-tier breaker like ABB or Siemens from the supplier and then the cheapest Chinese "6kA Icn" breakers for the panel. These breakers would fail if exposed to a hard short, but the supplier-fitted breaker will trip and save it.
Electrical engineering at its best, great vid, nostalgic look at the quick test used to be big clives principal tool. Lip sync went a bit off at 23:00 , thanks for sharing.👍 👍👍
Very interesting. I wonder how it would function with say, a motor where the brushes arc some what against the commutator? We don’t have any test gear (yet) to measure arc time, or the severity (energy let through value)? I’m sure maybe something is destined to appear in the near future? I still love them. I really welcome them. They maybe will get smaller too? I like this new regs. Edition more than any other. I retire soon. Thanks for the video!
+John Ward (1) How is our wiring different to USA 110v systems, their use of Wire-Nuts, higher currents for same loads, and suchlike we don't accept, knob+tube circuits, etc which presumably makes AFDDs rather less necessary here? More to the point do ARCs sustain / heat / etc differently simply by nature of the lowered voltage?. (2) In your electricians' experience, when have you seen evidence of ARCing in wiring anyway, and what issues has it apparently caused in practice? Just Melted/charred terminals or actual fires ever?. Bad joint broken ring-circuit, etc etc...? [ I'm suspecting more fires happen because evil deathdapters/deadly resistive extension-cords (which can set on fire without arcing at first), etc. -- rather than fixed-wiring issues...? ].
Electric shower circuits are one of the few places that I've seen serious damage caused by arcing and the only place I'd be tempted to install an AFDD right now.
Knob and tube wiring has been outlawed for some 70+ years now. It is classified as "Functionally Obsolete" Which, as far as code is concerned, means that if left untouched, unmodified, and otherwise undisturbed, it can be left in place and does not constitute a hazard. However.... most people, when faced with knob and tube wiring, promptly call an electrician and have it torn out and replaced by modern wiring. I've run across many homes still sporting their original K&T wiring, and it's held up reasonably well over the years. The problem comes when someone wants to add an outlet or a light somewhere and decides the best way is to tap into this ancient wiring. First off, its illegal. The minute you touch this stuff it legally has to be torn out and replaced. Secondly, when properly installed, the splices of K&T were tightly wrapped, soldered and then covered in a fibrous tape. What makes it especially dangerous is when some yokel adds in his new circuit by imitating what he sees and bares a wire, wraps his new one around it and then wads up 12 feet of electrical tape around it. No solder, no mechanical connection. This makes a high resistance joint and this is what makes K&T dangerous. And I see it all the time. K&T should be replaced in EVERY case, whether it's been meddled with or not, but to set the record straight, It has not been allowed for a very long time, and gets its bad reputation from incorrect modification over time, not because it is inherently dangerous. We could argue the merits of wire-nuts until we are blue in the face... Those things have been tested and retested by so many labs and independent outfits, I think their safety and reliability has been well studied. Again, most wire-nut related failures come down to users not using them properly. I know it seems stupid, I mean how hard is it to screw one of these things over a couple wires and call it a day. But some people are just stupid and will cram far too many wires into them, mix copper and aluminum (aluminium), or just plain not screw it on tight enough. Every package of these things has clear instructions - that nobody reads - that specifies exactly what you can and can not splice with a wire nut. EVERY possible combination of size, number and stranding has to be tested and printed on the packaging. Want to splice a #10 stranded to two #14 solids?.... If its approved for that, it'll be printed on the package. If the combination you want to splice isn't on the package... don't do it. Since 99.999% of the time you will be splicing 2-4 of the exact same wires, this usually isn't a problem. Most general residential circuits in the US are 15 amp 120 volt circuits, using 14 AWG solid core wire. Generally the only thing you'll be concerned with is how many you can cram into a wire nut. The first listings on the package will be how many of a specific gauge are approved for that wire nut, then the list goes on to include the bizarre combinations that almost no one would ever make, but they have to test for them anyway. Suffice it to say, these things have been proven to be very safe and reliable. I'll admit they seem a haphazard way to splice wires, but when done correctly, make a very solid joint. I'd love to send John a box of them for testing. I'd love to see what he thinks of them.
@@eschu1010 I didn't know that, but I guess I'm not surprised. However, it is a moot point as it relates to AFCI protection. The mandate for AFCI breakers isn't retroactive, so there is no incentive to protect knob and tube wiring with them. Also, no one in their right mind would ever install knob and tube wiring in this day and age, and no inspector would ever approve it, regardless of what the code says.
those RCD tripping times are a bit concerning, especially on 5x. Of all the devices I test I rarely see over 20mA, I wonder how those times would fair after many years in service.
Interesting. I would like to see what would happen if either line or neutral was arcing but not both at the same time. Could you re-wire and test again so the quick connect was only switching one live conductor? It could possibly be more representative of a real fault. Great video anyway, thanks for sharing!
John, So sorry to see that the manufacturers are making the wiring rules over there like they are here in US for the NEC! These are nuisance devices. My understanding is that they have tested many arcs and the device is looking for a waveform of a tested arc. So we were the testing group in US. Some loads that cause false trips were noted by others. Another one that causes problems is D.C. motor loads. Like a treadmill. You might like to test one since you have it set up. Also, it not only trips the device used but may trip several at one time. We are sympathetic about having to install them. Oh by the way, if these check for ground fault, what happens to the single device you have for the whole panel? The price of your electrical system just went up as well! At least the manufacturers come out ahead.
The idea is that these are used for one circuit only, one manufacturer has already put out marketing material suggesting a whole row of these devices, one for every circuit.
@@KevinCoop1 Yes, GFCI and RCD are the same thing. If these devices were used, then there would be no upfront RCD, just a main switch. It's the same with RCBOs that are available now (combined MCB and RCD), you just have one of those for each circuit and a main switch for the whole lot. Having a single RCD for the whole installation isn't done now, that was more of a 1990s and earlier thing, when RCDs were far more expensive and not actually required for most circuits. More recent ones have 2 RCDs, each doing about half of the circuits, but even that is moving to a main switch and RCBOs now.
Soon we will a bedroom for the consumer unit, one of these per circuit means the consumer unit will be 2x the size of an existing one... Example: hob: 1, kitchen sockets(not hob): 1, heating system/heatpump: 1, lights upstairs: 1, lights downstairs: 1, sockets upstairs: 1, sockets downstairs: 1, for the garage: 1 For my house I would need 8 of these, each of them 3 spaces, just these alone are take the space of 24 single units
JW - have you read the Standard and looked at the detection curves? If so you would see that according to IEC 62606 & 60898-1 that a 40w load is not supposed to trip these things.
John, have you done anything concerning cumulative leakage current on class 2 equipment? In SMPS you typically have a 3n3 Y1 cap primary to secondary leading to about 0.4mA leakage. Put 10 prices of AV equipment together and you have 4mA. Quite a painful and potentially dangerous tingle if you touch a 0V part such as RCA connector.
John, you state the RCD/RCBO must trip within 200mS at x1. It is in fact 300mS at x1 for the current models of RCDs/RCBOs to BS EN61008 and 61009. As this device comes under a different BS number, does it state on the instructions what the tripping time should be at x1?
Very unimpressed. I'm sticking to my legacy fuses which can be rewired if they blow - but never do. I'll detect arcs with my ears and nose - but they never occur.
another informative video thank you John it seems that this device is not such a guardian of protection against arching as its marketing spin suggests., minor arching at switches may well not have any effect until its already quite severe. but i suppose it protects against the ordinary person ignoring a developing problem with the electrical system and it will eventually operate due to hidden arching problems within the wiring system
The LED should indicate the cause of the tripping when the device is open, so we don`t have to close on the fault to find out. If it trips right away on reclosing, the LED doesn`t have time to show anything...? Green means O.K. or RCD tripped?
Wonder if these devices will work with sodium or mercury lamp circuits, or even old fluorescent with traditional choke ballasts and starters? What about "normally" sparking series brush motors?
i noticed that you said at caravan parks it will trip the rcd for the site but there is a rcd in the electric post for each caravan so would it not just trip that
John if you have a large Hostel many rooms all fuseboards are protected with AC type RCBO'S do you have to change them for AFDD'S and would it be just the sockets and cookers with the new regs or is it safe with all the RCBO'S for continued use How do I advise the owner Thanks
Has the electric heater got a variable heat knob? Could be sensing that as a dimmer? Love your videos by the way. The crossover with GSH was really cool. Thanks and keep up the great content.
I wonder how long it will take for a requirement for the arc faults to be detected by test equipment and recorded. Great test, if a little disappointing result.
would arcing between one live conductor be the way to trip the device, you are arcing it between both live and neutral which is why it can not see any surges happening in the sine wave?
Hi John, wondered if you have done a video on RCD types AC A F B B+ etc. Seen hager have brought a 18th edition DB with type A rcds in, thought these were only required where car chargers were installed but most car chargers have them in them any advice? Thanks Darren
Mr ward i am in the state's and i purchased a mixer from italy and it. Works off of 230v single phase european. It has a brown and blue and earth wire. I know the brown is my power and blue is my neutral. I watch your videos all the time even though I'm in the state's. Now for my question. Can i run a 120v line to make it work. Cause here in the states 230v is two phases and an earth. Im a little doubtful that our 120v will have the mixer working to its full capacity. Please help
An arc ussualy is a high spike in voltage, inductance your test rig looks like it it dose not provide fault conditions Might i sujest rubing 1 wire together rather than dual live nuetral rub.
AFDDs are 3 in one devices, and are intended to replace RCBOs. They are designed for use on one circuit only, so won't replace RCDs that cover multiple circuits.
Nice informative video John. There's not really much about regarding AFDDs apart from Americans and it seems they don't like them. I hope it takes a long time before these unnecessary pieces of equipment are actually required by the regs. Fortunately, I should be retired before they are required. RCDs do the job of preventing fire well enough. I can't see them getting the balance right to allow them to be effective while not being oversensitive and tripping every time you use a hoover etc. There don't seem to be any statistics proving effectiveness or the need for them. How on earth are you going to put these in a domestic DB at 3 modules wide. I can only see there use in special circumstances in dedicated enclosures or large TPN DBs. A bit of advice on creating arcing using the mains safeblock. Not a good idea. It will damage the contacts. I now always switch off before opening or closing mine. I only had a light load on and it arced without me realizing. I went to close it and it was catching. When I looked closer the spring contact had a slightly pitted surface that the top contact was catching on and bending out of shape.
This was how RCD breakers looked like 10 years ago, hopefully we can get these in two modules in sometime including the RCD function. Might be hard to put 3 functions in two modules, but we can hope.
Dear John, This is not a dear John message..... but how do I contact you otherwise? Just discovered (whilst on a job) a TN-s system but the power to the shed and metal frame greenhouse at the bottom of the garden both have earth rods as well earthing to house.... puzzled, necessary? I can't work it out somehow... Steve Retired electrician
I see only 1 test button instead of 2. Ideally we should have 1 for AFDD, and 1 for RCD. For many reasons, I suspect the yellow test button to be for RCD instead of AFDD. The white indicator should turn blue for all causes of tripping, including overcurrent. Also, as for RCD, 30 mA is good enough for equipment protection, but not good enough for human protection. A person might die with 20 mA maintained through vital parts of the body (even more so if caused by 240V than 120V). In Canada and USA, we have 5 mA with a time of about 30 msec (a bit less than 2 cycles).
Does the test button test the AFDD function or the RCD function? I only see one test button on the device. The new 18th edition test sheets have tick box for the test button operation for AFDD's and another tick box for the RCD's test button function.
@@ProCertsSoftware Unfortunately no way to know. The RCD can be tested with a normal RCD tester, but for the AFDD part the only test is the button, or relying on the device to show a fault via the LED on the front.
Perhaps the arc detection is deliberately insensitive to avoid nuisance trips? In terms of old switches vs actual faults, it might be a very narrow window to work with. But I'm just speculating...
Hi John love watching your videos they are brilliant. I am not an electrician by trade but was helping a freind with installation can and this has really grabbed my attention. Can you recommend a good textbook on installation design and calculations. Also can you explain the different tupe of Earthing used in England Thanks
Wonder if how different brands compare anyone got some thay could check out, I'm not a great fan of eaton gear when there new range of mould case breakers came out a few years ago terminal clamps where falling off ,windows over the trip current setting where missing ,wernt impressed
Thanks, John, I am not enthused by this device especially as it is a 3 module unit and fault interpretation is not clear for most end users. London Fire brigade should stick to their day job.
@pmailkeey agreed, they don't investigate very well. Appliances are the biggest cause of house fires with electricity yet they just put it down as electrical fire and try to prevent the wrong way. Like metal consumer units to prevent fire spreading, instead if addressing what causes the fire, ie loose terminations. Most tails come loose and they could resolve this with 2 screws to tighten down on the cable or have a crimp/ferrule to clamp on instead of stranded cable
@@adrianking6309 Very good points made regarding terminations in consumer units, this is exactly where I see improvements should be made, also there is room for improvement with the screws themselves.
i wont believe so many people who says the device is useless. if it is really so then try to test with an arc fault that actually results in fire (and that of course does not result in mcb and rccb/ or rcbo to trip). If an afdd device still does not trip, then it is a useless device. that will be its real test
I'm guessing you already know but you get single module normal size MCB & RCD combined and there not the long ones as well. There just the size of a normal MCB. Something that will be being installed soon and I recon it'll be saying it in the new regs are fault current devices. Clive's done a video on one. There design for TT systems but personally I think they should be in every type of supply's. I've just purchased one (even though I haven't installed it yet) and I live in a new development TN-C-S. You can get them in different kA's, I think the one I've got it 60kA 🤔 You can get cheaper ones that have different breaking loads 20kA & 40kA. If you've got a lot of electronics (which is every dwelling these days) then I'd highly recommend one. Even though most electronics are designed for over voltage protection but if you loose a phase on your local tranny, it'll shoot way over 400V as most incoming supplies are over 240V. Mines between 245-248! and I know Clive's got (even though he lives in the middle of nowhere like my nan & grand (TT)) around 245V n so does my nan & grand. All of these new "laws and regulations" really have worked well changing the voltages even though they haven't. They should of kept the 240 & 415 as that's what it is and then some. Sorry I'm ranting like Clive with the "new colour codes"
Over voltage trip would be more useful in the uk as we can get high voltage in from the supply with the loss of neutral. I have witnessed this in a housing estate with the street lights going up in smoke. Apparently these devices don’t work on a ring main ether. Anyone know about this being correct?
I was at the Elex Fair at Ally Pally the other day and all the manufacturers were saying if you dont fit arc fault & surge protection in new installs and CU replacements you should get them to sign something saying they didn't want them or you are open to being sued! What do you guys think, genuine thing to do or scare tactics by manufacturers to sell more devices? Sounds a bit far fetched to me.
German company Doepke make these for Eaton. Their AFDDs look exactly the same. Might explain the slow tripping because Doepke offers a version with delayed tripping... www.doepke.de/en/products/protect/fire-protection-switches-afdd/type-of-residual-current-a/
So what i see, this will not detect earth leakage, infact i see the earth fault loop is not there, so ze is not therer, the protection is in R2, Not extinguished by earth fault current, extinguish by AFDD, C an any one tell me, the mechanical stresses, that could cause this thing to trip
Great vid as usual but please will you ever take that pathetic round illuminated ball and kick it as far as you can into a body of level water with zero curveture and see if it floats thanks
I'm guessing the lack of sensitivity to arcing may be due to having to play super-safe with all the electrically noisy electronic power supplies and motors in modern appliances. I can't help feeling that they are going too far with their endless desire to complicate domestic installations. 240V problems tend to be somewhat more decisive than 120V ones. I could see something like this being more useful in a place like America due to their lower voltage carrying a greater arcing risk.
This is also probably going to be another breaker where electrical separation has been compromised due to the need to jam electronics inside it. Unlike most RCDs with very simple electronics I would expect this one to have a reasonable power supply in it that may affect its usable lifespan. I'm also wondering how much power - both real and apparent this thing draws in standby. If it has a capacitive dropper or switching supply in it then it could make a significant contribution to electricity costs over a year. Especially if apparent power metering is applied.
Also the USA often has the small 'pole pig' type transformers. The short circuit capacity (and by extrapolation the arc fault value) tends to be lower too... so a dead short might not even alert the person who caused it to the event.
Happened to me in Iowa, I used a category '0, you're shitting me' test probe in an outlet. The tv went off. No bang, no flash, nothing. My wife had to take me to the fusebox (USA style edison 'plug' fuses) to show that i'd actually blown a 20 amp fuse with no visible trauma. LOL
@@TheChipmunk2008 Your thinking more of prospective fault current under short circuit conditions. Lower with small transformers and generators. The arc detection is to detect bad connections that are arcing even at low current.
A device that does little just so some more cash can be made ! Soooo All we need now is a 12 foot long consumer unit as we have 3 ways used for each circuit, a very understanding inspector as the device was at the brink with the RCD - I wonder how those it will perform when on the other end of a 220M run - needed to be hit with arcing for a long period right at the tip of the max cct load (how many 32A ring mains do you see that are normally loaded to 30A) diversity anyone ? AND you are going to have to lock the breaker in a cupboard as the VERY FIRST THING the EU is going to do is reset the breaker...... Oh dear there goes your record of what supposedly caused the trip.
Never mind perhaps there is another bit in the regs we have yet to see that will involve using another 4 ways to install a logging printer so we have a record. I wonder how it will perform as Clive points out with a nice mixture of inductive and other loads introduced.
So to summarise .... Spend longer on site for the install and testing. Use a much larger consumer unit. Spend more on parts and time. Install acropropps under the consumer unit to support the now sagging casing due to the weight of the 12 foot long bus bar. Spend a wasted day on site chasing a fault that may not be there. What about induced EM from a thunder storm.....
Its the sparks at the sharp end who are going to have slice more out of profits as I cant see the end user offering to pay the extra. This could be fine when you have the chance of heavy duty contactors wearing out or other very rare situations but as Big C points out this is more suited to American sparcs ! I bet this has been sneaked in by the EU... TOTAL JOKE..
Oh and someone make Clive a cuppa, after his recent part P rant we don't want to loose him ! Thank you bringing this into the light John :-)
We feel similarly in the States. The original push for AFCIs was to protect against arcing due to compromised extension cords and damaged receptacles in bedrooms. Now as of 2017 NEC, they're required nearly everywhere, and to make matters more annoying, they're for the first time a required upgrade if any receptacle is replaced on a given circuit. I have one that I removed from service that was false tripping after just 2 years of service...I should send it over to you so you can give it a proper autopsy.
Not trying to have a go at US wiring so please don't take offence......
Was the push for arc detection anything to do with the way US plugs don't have a lot keeping them in. When I was over there the socket strip I had my phone and alarm clock plugged into kept popping out of the wall plug. If you hit the cable it just came out. It didn't strike me as a firm termination.
Do you ever have any arcing in the twist on terminals I have seen being put on ? They don't seem to be a very good way to make a solid termination. Do you ever get HR faults or wires coming out of them.
Just curios and as I said .... No offence intended.
John, so sorry to hear that AFDDs have made their way across the pond!
Many of us here in the States hate AFCIs (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters), they don't do their jobs effectively, but what they will do is nuisance trip for vacuum cleaners, laser printers, HAM radios turned to 20 meters, etc. We can only hope that as they make more of them, the manufacturers produce ones that actually work (ha!) I've never understood why here in the US we didn't require more GFCIs/RCDs, which have been proven to protect life and property over and over again, are easy to test, and which provide real protective value. Oh well, we don't make the codes, we just follow them :-/
"HAM radios turned to 20 meters"
What about other bands? ;)
BTW The codes are actually just a minimum requirement. You can put more safety equipment in, but of course the cost is higher and reliability is lower.
@@zvpunry1971 The first generation AFCIs were extremely sensitive to the 20 meter band (14MHz), and there's a good video of a panel full of Eaton AFCIs tripping at 17m (18MHz). 30m (10MHz) was also a popular trouble spot. They appear to have improved (my panel has AFCIs identified as "Gen 5"), but still nuisance trip with laser printers and some vacuum cleaners. I'd much rather they can the AFCI requirement altogether and instead require equipment protection GFCIs (typically a 30mA trip) on circuits where AFCIs are now mandated.
I once saw a video of someone tripping AFCIs on different bands. One video, which I don't find anymore, showed someone with a
But WHY do HAM radios tuned to those frequncies trip arc fault interuptors? Is it radiated or conducted interference.
Our new house here in the states used these for every circuit in the house. Fumbling around with the light switch would trip them, but more annoyingly a brand new mains powered vacuum would trip them as well. Only way I could find to keep them from tripping is to plug in a bunch of switchmode power supplies into the same outlet the vacuum was plugged into, presumably they were suppressing the noise from the vacuum
Or confusing it with high frequency electrical switching noise...
Thanks for doing this John, and thanks for showing the little trick with the RCD's selectivity' issue.. I may borrow that.. so it's looking like these devices do little next to nothing for loads up to 8 Amp which is a complete contradiction to most of the scare mongering marketing material out there.
Sparky ninja... I saw your reaction to these at your tresham college visit video, you didn't seem convinced? Me neither... Glad JW did some tests, but there's more theories to be tested. It's pretty inconclusive to me. Are these things designed to trip on certain loads? I like the idea but seems like a money making scam to enhance regs even more an keep the money coming in. Its sad times if it is. 😣
These things have been required in the states for some time now. At first it was only required on certain circuits, usually bedrooms. Shortly after that, it became mandatory to use these things on virtually every circuit. It all depends on the local codes and local inspector/ authority having jurisdiction. Some require these for EVERY circuit, some are more sensible and require them only for general outlet and lighting circuits. Either way, these things are awful. Here in the states, the average price for a standard circuit breaker is between 5-10 dollars, where the AFCI - arc fault circuit interrupter - breakers are 40-50 dollars. This has increased the cost of breaker panel installs (consumer units for you Brits) astronomically. Considering the average North American residential breaker panel has 20+ breakers, you can see how much this would increase the cost of installing a new panel. We use radial circuits exclusively, as ring final circuits are illegal here. The other major problem with these is virtually any electrical noise will trip them. Vacuum cleaners, power tools, and anything with a brushed motor or high inrush current will nuisance trip these things even though there is no actual fault. The National Electrical Code, having embraced these wretched things lock, stock and barrel has done the population a huge disservice.
I am a contractor by trade. I do many varied tasks, but my schooling was in electrical. In my parent's last home, they wanted me to install hardwood flooring in their bedroom. I couldn't use either of my saws (table saw and compound miter saw) or my air compressor in the bedroom because of these breakers. How is it safer for me to run extension cords down the hall and down the stairs into the basement to use an outlet that wasn't on one of these breakers so my tools would work? These things are just insanity.
We recently built an addition on our home and this required a sub-panel to be installed in the new section. Of course they required these arc fault breakers to be installed in the sub-panel. Well, wouldn't you know, my mother's sewing machine trips the breaker every time she steps on the pedal to operate it. After the final inspections, those breakers got taken out and traditional breakers put in their place. Even the inspector agreed that these things are more of a pain than they're worth, and said if they happened to get replaced after he signed off on the inspection, he wouldn't be upset. Say what you will about an inspector like that, he was only being realistic. I'm sure he's fielded plenty of complaints about these breakers.
So a big corp invented the thing and then lobbied for a law to be put in place to make sure plenty are sold, and that would be the only reason why they exist in the first place (at least for homes)?
That's pretty much how I see it. These things are not generally required in commercial or industrial applications as far as I know, and no industrial organization would tolerate the down time these things create. They seem to be only required in residential new construction or if there's a substantial remodel. In my area if the cost of the remodel is more than 50% of the property value - or some similar percentage- you are required to bring the entire structure up to current code. This means all new electrical with these dreadful breakers, in addition to any plumbing, building, fire, or similar updates. Once you hit that magic number the building is no longer "grandfathered" and must have EVERYTHING brought up to current code specs.
These things are a complete farce, and John did a good job showing it. Look how much arcing it took before it finally tripped. Which is odd, since the ones here in the states are the complete opposite, tripping at the mere whiff of an arc. I'm not kidding about my table saw, it's not like it would run for a moment then trip the breaker, as soon as you flipped the switch the damned arc fault breaker would pop. No, there's nothing wrong with my saw. I still have it, and use it all the time. On some arc fault breakers it seems to work ... ok... on some, it doesn't work at all. There seems to be no consistency on how these things trip and at what threshold they do so. Maybe the code has specified the characteristics, but I've never seen them. All the inspectors do to test them is first make sure they're actually installed, then they use a little plug in tester like the sort with the three neon indicators for checking outlets except it has a button on it that trips GFCI and AFCI breakers. As long as the breaker pops when he pushes the button, its a pass. It's a complete joke.
Well, looking at the fact that every brushed (universal) motor say in a vacuum cleaner or drill has arcing going on at the brushes.. It doesn't look like an easy job to detect real faults. Every time you plug something active in a socket it will arc a little bit. Switch mode powersupplies with no real off switch also make arcing noises when you plug them in. Yeah... I don't see it.
Wylex are charging £200 in Screwfix for an afdd
I agree with your philosophy on the insane use of these devices for domestic purposes. I lived and worked in Canada for 30 years and the standard breakers and GFI worked great. My only beef is the sockets (receptacles) and plugs are Mickey Mouse in their design. The three pronged plug with the earth (ground) connection is usually at the bottom of the plug when inserted and invariably the plug can get knocked out of the socket easily. The lack of a positive tight connection when the blades of the plug are inserted makes them candidates for potential arcing at the receptacles. They are not a patch on the design and robustness of MK sockets and other leading brands in the UK. Plus the use of ‘Maretts’ (not sure about the spelling) is ancient because if overly twisted they can break one or more of a conductor in a bunch. That’s my rant over.
That "DIMMER" might mean time delay, so it tripped with delay (cause of not significant, non-inductive arcing, also the arc symbol is smaller in that graphic instructions) i think if you ran some motor and did the arc test, it would trip instantly and would show 1st position with one yellow blink.
In practice, it is VERY hard for electronics to tell the difference between electrical noise that results from normal usage of appliances and the waveform changes caused by an arc. So in my humble opinion, these so call arc protection devices are a waste of money and resources. I would rather people spent their money on having their electrical system checked by a real qualified and experienced electrician.
Unfortunately in Canada, they're required by the wiring code in bedroom circuits. I have heard of them being installed to pass inspection and then having them removed and replaced by a conventional breaker.
In America.
It is required that all circuits that Supply the inside of the house must have an arc fault protection.
so when it comes to kitchens and bathrooms you have that and a GFI.
But people do have problems with them when they have a ceiling fan in a bedroom.
Good video, John.
The nuisance tripping is a big, big problem. Eaton seems to have resolved that pretty well with the breaker you demonstrated.
Just don't trip :-)
The AFCI detects current fluctuations so the operation is especially tricky in 240V countries, compared to the US where the current is twice as large. It's tricky enough in the US.
A refrigerator is a very critical appliance where you DO NOT want nuisance tripping. If you have a second refrigerator that you don't use everyday, it can be a disaster if the breaker trips and you don't notice it. Try to avoid AFCI's on refrigerators whenever possible. If necessary, you can plug in a battery operated alarm at the same socket to let you know if the breaker trips.
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19:30 I love his comment and all the way. He brings back my childhood memories on experimenting.
Thank you again John for taking the time and effort to demonstrate the proposed new device. Personally, I think they are over the top for a domestic installation as others have said the CU will be massive, besides, most arcing ends up causing a short circuit which would be picked up by the usual devices anyway.
The newer versions are a single module wide, so the consumer unit won't be any larger than it is now.
Thank you very much for decrypting this connection, John. I appreciate it.
aptly explained with live demonstration. Really loved your video John.
Great video, great to get a insight into AFDD's.Just a note from what I was taught as college the trip time for a RCD at x1 is 300ms and at x5 was 40ms.
John, a cracking video.
Worth staying a huge difference between UK and American systems. Whilst similar in principle very different. This video is a great public service given the marketing of some companies show bedside cabinets with lamps next to sleep kids and it evidently needs high current faults to work..
You have done the first public test video..
Well done.. love the badge 😬👍
Yes you can imagine that if it was sensitive to the crap switches in lamps it would always be tripping . I can imagine that a dc version would be useful for string inverters .
Thankyou for making this video, extremely interesting and slightly concerning over the live arc testing. Off to watch part 2 now!
No better man than you John to test gear out ☘️🇮🇪☘️ So in old installations with old switches/ sockets one would expect lots of nuisance tripping !
I think it might be difficult to find a good balance between sensitivity and nuisance tripping. You wouldn't want this thing to go off every time you flip a switch. But at least it should detect arcs that create enough heat to cause a fire, otherwise it's useless.
Hi John, thank you for taking the time to take a closer look at Eaton AFDDs. Although relatively new for the UK, the technology has been in place now for a number of years in other European countries and North America. As you would hope, our products are tested in controlled conditions to meet relevant IEC/BSEN requirements. I have a meeting with one of our technical leads later this week after which we will contact you directly to provide additional feedback on the points raised. Thanks again for taking the time to review our offer - Marc Gaunt - Segment Marketing Manager - Eaton Electric.
Brilliant video John. I enjoyed looking at the Fluke installation tester.
Great to hear you are going up to meet GSH electrical and the learners at Tresham college to give a talk. I can't wait for the ramble
Arcs tend to come from loose screw terminal connections. So if these are eliminated the need for an AFDD is reduced or even eliminated. Having screwless terminals makes an installation much, much safer. The likes of the Wago type of connector and screwless terminals on sockets, switches, appliances, MCBs, RCBOs, etc, will pretty well eliminate the need for AFDDs.
There are sellers of some Eaton equipment here in the Czech Republic. But the things are over 10 times more expensive than competition, so they only really sell them to parties who spend somebody else's money. The arrangement seems to be a mid-tier breaker like ABB or Siemens from the supplier and then the cheapest Chinese "6kA Icn" breakers for the panel. These breakers would fail if exposed to a hard short, but the supplier-fitted breaker will trip and save it.
Love the Happy and Sad faces. Very Chinese
Sir, your videos are amazing, keep up the great work
Would be interesting to run an electric drill through one. All commutators in my experience produce copious arcs (or are they "sparks"?).
Has been done in Part 2, available soon.
Electrical engineering at its best, great vid, nostalgic look at the quick test used to be big clives principal tool. Lip sync went a bit off at 23:00 , thanks for sharing.👍 👍👍
QT still in use on the IoM.
Explained nicely...Thanks JW
Very interesting. I wonder how it would function with say, a motor where the brushes arc some what against the commutator?
We don’t have any test gear (yet) to measure arc time, or the severity (energy let through value)? I’m sure maybe something is destined to appear in the near future? I still love them. I really welcome them. They maybe will get smaller too? I like this new regs. Edition more than any other. I retire soon. Thanks for the video!
very informative video as always John - keep em coming!
+John Ward
(1) How is our wiring different to USA 110v systems, their use of Wire-Nuts, higher currents for same loads, and suchlike we don't accept, knob+tube circuits, etc which presumably makes AFDDs rather less necessary here? More to the point do ARCs sustain / heat / etc differently simply by nature of the lowered voltage?.
(2) In your electricians' experience, when have you seen evidence of ARCing in wiring anyway, and what issues has it apparently caused in practice? Just Melted/charred terminals or actual fires ever?. Bad joint broken ring-circuit, etc etc...?
[ I'm suspecting more fires happen because evil deathdapters/deadly resistive extension-cords (which can set on fire without arcing at first), etc. -- rather than fixed-wiring issues...? ].
120 volt.. It stated 110 - 120. Buy in 30 years of service never seen below 120 in "Residential Service" Canada
Electric shower circuits are one of the few places that I've seen serious damage caused by arcing and the only place I'd be tempted to install an AFDD right now.
Knob and tube wiring has been outlawed for some 70+ years now. It is classified as "Functionally Obsolete" Which, as far as code is concerned, means that if left untouched, unmodified, and otherwise undisturbed, it can be left in place and does not constitute a hazard. However.... most people, when faced with knob and tube wiring, promptly call an electrician and have it torn out and replaced by modern wiring. I've run across many homes still sporting their original K&T wiring, and it's held up reasonably well over the years. The problem comes when someone wants to add an outlet or a light somewhere and decides the best way is to tap into this ancient wiring. First off, its illegal. The minute you touch this stuff it legally has to be torn out and replaced. Secondly, when properly installed, the splices of K&T were tightly wrapped, soldered and then covered in a fibrous tape. What makes it especially dangerous is when some yokel adds in his new circuit by imitating what he sees and bares a wire, wraps his new one around it and then wads up 12 feet of electrical tape around it. No solder, no mechanical connection. This makes a high resistance joint and this is what makes K&T dangerous. And I see it all the time. K&T should be replaced in EVERY case, whether it's been meddled with or not, but to set the record straight, It has not been allowed for a very long time, and gets its bad reputation from incorrect modification over time, not because it is inherently dangerous.
We could argue the merits of wire-nuts until we are blue in the face... Those things have been tested and retested by so many labs and independent outfits, I think their safety and reliability has been well studied. Again, most wire-nut related failures come down to users not using them properly. I know it seems stupid, I mean how hard is it to screw one of these things over a couple wires and call it a day. But some people are just stupid and will cram far too many wires into them, mix copper and aluminum (aluminium), or just plain not screw it on tight enough. Every package of these things has clear instructions - that nobody reads - that specifies exactly what you can and can not splice with a wire nut. EVERY possible combination of size, number and stranding has to be tested and printed on the packaging. Want to splice a #10 stranded to two #14 solids?.... If its approved for that, it'll be printed on the package. If the combination you want to splice isn't on the package... don't do it. Since 99.999% of the time you will be splicing 2-4 of the exact same wires, this usually isn't a problem. Most general residential circuits in the US are 15 amp 120 volt circuits, using 14 AWG solid core wire. Generally the only thing you'll be concerned with is how many you can cram into a wire nut. The first listings on the package will be how many of a specific gauge are approved for that wire nut, then the list goes on to include the bizarre combinations that almost no one would ever make, but they have to test for them anyway. Suffice it to say, these things have been proven to be very safe and reliable. I'll admit they seem a haphazard way to splice wires, but when done correctly, make a very solid joint. I'd love to send John a box of them for testing. I'd love to see what he thinks of them.
@@chrisrichard298 Knob and Tube wiring is still permitted by the NEC : art. 394.
@@eschu1010 I didn't know that, but I guess I'm not surprised. However, it is a moot point as it relates to AFCI protection. The mandate for AFCI breakers isn't retroactive, so there is no incentive to protect knob and tube wiring with them. Also, no one in their right mind would ever install knob and tube wiring in this day and age, and no inspector would ever approve it, regardless of what the code says.
Great vid as always John (300ms not 200ms max though - as per old 4293's) they are tripping on the high side as you say
those RCD tripping times are a bit concerning, especially on 5x. Of all the devices I test I rarely see over 20mA, I wonder how those times would fair after many years in service.
Supposed to detect a series arc but cannot => complete waste of money. Thanks for the demo.
Very interesting, and new to me, next bit of reading to do.
Thanks for sharing.
Interesting. I would like to see what would happen if either line or neutral was arcing but not both at the same time. Could you re-wire and test again so the quick connect was only switching one live conductor? It could possibly be more representative of a real fault. Great video anyway, thanks for sharing!
It doesn't have earth connected, so it can't tell. Thus the suggestion is bogus.
Very useful testing.
John, So sorry to see that the manufacturers are making the wiring rules over there like they are here in US for the NEC! These are nuisance devices. My understanding is that they have tested many arcs and the device is looking for a waveform of a tested arc. So we were the testing group in US. Some loads that cause false trips were noted by others. Another one that causes problems is D.C. motor loads. Like a treadmill. You might like to test one since you have it set up. Also, it not only trips the device used but may trip several at one time. We are sympathetic about having to install them. Oh by the way, if these check for ground fault, what happens to the single device you have for the whole panel? The price of your electrical system just went up as well! At least the manufacturers come out ahead.
The idea is that these are used for one circuit only, one manufacturer has already put out marketing material suggesting a whole row of these devices, one for every circuit.
John Ward. So the question is, multiple RCD's behind one RCD. I believe you call our GFCI's RCD's.
@@KevinCoop1 Yes, GFCI and RCD are the same thing. If these devices were used, then there would be no upfront RCD, just a main switch. It's the same with RCBOs that are available now (combined MCB and RCD), you just have one of those for each circuit and a main switch for the whole lot.
Having a single RCD for the whole installation isn't done now, that was more of a 1990s and earlier thing, when RCDs were far more expensive and not actually required for most circuits. More recent ones have 2 RCDs, each doing about half of the circuits, but even that is moving to a main switch and RCBOs now.
This Eaton its made in Romania
Soon we will a bedroom for the consumer unit, one of these per circuit means the consumer unit will be 2x the size of an existing one...
Example: hob: 1, kitchen sockets(not hob): 1, heating system/heatpump: 1, lights upstairs: 1, lights downstairs: 1, sockets upstairs: 1, sockets downstairs: 1, for the garage: 1
For my house I would need 8 of these, each of them 3 spaces, just these alone are take the space of 24 single units
JW - have you read the Standard and looked at the detection curves? If so you would see that according to IEC 62606 & 60898-1 that a 40w load is not supposed to trip these things.
This type of video i like it good for you
john
3:55 I thought that meant don't use the phone on you'll get electrocuted. That sheet is just bizarre frankly.
John, have you done anything concerning cumulative leakage current on class 2 equipment?
In SMPS you typically have a 3n3 Y1 cap primary to secondary leading to about 0.4mA leakage.
Put 10 prices of AV equipment together and you have 4mA.
Quite a painful and potentially dangerous tingle if you touch a 0V part such as RCA connector.
John, you state the RCD/RCBO must trip within 200mS at x1. It is in fact 300mS at x1 for the current models of RCDs/RCBOs to BS EN61008 and 61009. As this device comes under a different BS number, does it state on the instructions what the tripping time should be at x1?
Very unimpressed. I'm sticking to my legacy fuses which can be rewired if they blow - but never do. I'll detect arcs with my ears and nose - but they never occur.
another informative video thank you John
it seems that this device is not such a guardian of protection against arching as its marketing spin suggests., minor arching at switches may well not have any effect until its already quite severe. but i suppose it protects against the ordinary person ignoring a developing problem with the electrical system and it will eventually operate due to hidden arching problems within the wiring system
Very informative video. Need to come up with an excuse to install this myself.
The LED should indicate the cause of the tripping when the device is open, so we don`t have to close on the fault to find out. If it trips right away on reclosing, the LED doesn`t have time to show anything...? Green means O.K. or RCD tripped?
Wonder if these devices will work with sodium or mercury lamp circuits, or even old fluorescent with traditional choke ballasts and starters?
What about "normally" sparking series brush motors?
i noticed that you said at caravan parks it will trip the rcd for the site but there is a rcd in the electric post for each caravan so would it not just trip that
John if you have a large Hostel many rooms all fuseboards are protected with AC type RCBO'S do you have to change them for AFDD'S and would it be just the sockets and cookers with the new regs or is it safe with all the RCBO'S for continued use How do I advise the owner Thanks
Has the electric heater got a variable heat knob? Could be sensing that as a dimmer?
Love your videos by the way. The crossover with GSH was really cool.
Thanks and keep up the great content.
I wonder how long it will take for a requirement for the arc faults to be detected by test equipment and recorded. Great test, if a little disappointing result.
would arcing between one live conductor be the way to trip the device, you are arcing it between both live and neutral which is why it can not see any surges happening in the sine wave?
Hi John, wondered if you have done a video on RCD types AC A F B B+ etc.
Seen hager have brought a 18th edition DB with type A rcds in, thought these were only required where car chargers were installed but most car chargers have them in them any advice? Thanks Darren
Do they make anything to stop my partner leaving her hair straighteners on or candles burning unattended.
What a waste of money.
Yes re hair straighteners etc... count down plug . energenie make one .
@@samuelchamberlain2584 cheers, they can put that one in the 1st amendment of 18th edition in July.
@@samuelchamberlain2584 cheers, they can put that one in the 1st amendment of 18th edition in July.
To what is that arc detection based?
what about trying a universal motor in series with heater or? brushed motors arc by design or better still a 1920s carbon arc sun lamp lol
Does anyone know if these would trip if you were using a arc welder on the circuit?
would this protect against contactor chatter?
Do electricial fires smell different from most. Fires
Mr ward i am in the state's and i purchased a mixer from italy and it. Works off of 230v single phase european. It has a brown and blue and earth wire. I know the brown is my power and blue is my neutral. I watch your videos all the time even though I'm in the state's.
Now for my question. Can i run a 120v line to make it work. Cause here in the states 230v is two phases and an earth. Im a little doubtful that our 120v will have the mixer working to its full capacity. Please help
An arc ussualy is a high spike in voltage, inductance your test rig looks like it it dose not provide fault conditions
Might i sujest rubing 1 wire together rather than dual live nuetral rub.
Hi John. Do you if these will be taking over from RCD's? Like new comsumer units will have AFDD's instead of RCD's.
AFDDs are 3 in one devices, and are intended to replace RCBOs. They are designed for use on one circuit only, so won't replace RCDs that cover multiple circuits.
Nice informative video John. There's not really much about regarding AFDDs apart from Americans and it seems they don't like them. I hope it takes a long time before these unnecessary pieces of equipment are actually required by the regs. Fortunately, I should be retired before they are required. RCDs do the job of preventing fire well enough. I can't see them getting the balance right to allow them to be effective while not being oversensitive and tripping every time you use a hoover etc. There don't seem to be any statistics proving effectiveness or the need for them.
How on earth are you going to put these in a domestic DB at 3 modules wide. I can only see there use in special circumstances in dedicated enclosures or large TPN DBs.
A bit of advice on creating arcing using the mains safeblock. Not a good idea. It will damage the contacts. I now always switch off before opening or closing mine. I only had a light load on and it arced without me realizing. I went to close it and it was catching. When I looked closer the spring contact had a slightly pitted surface that the top contact was catching on and bending out of shape.
How do you install this device in fuse board without cutting busbar ,or is a stand alone product?
This was how RCD breakers looked like 10 years ago, hopefully we can get these in two modules in sometime including the RCD function. Might be hard to put 3 functions in two modules, but we can hope.
Siemens have that already
Dear John,
This is not a dear John message..... but how do I contact you otherwise?
Just discovered (whilst on a job) a TN-s system but the power to the shed and metal frame greenhouse at the bottom of the garden both have earth rods as well earthing to house.... puzzled, necessary? I can't work it out somehow...
Steve Retired electrician
why would you use one of these and on what type of ccts would you be requird to use it?
Why: in my humble opinion, only if you have more money than sense...
It currently is not a requirement for any circuit in the U.K.
I see only 1 test button instead of 2. Ideally we should have 1 for AFDD, and 1 for RCD. For many reasons, I suspect the yellow test button to be for RCD instead of AFDD. The white indicator should turn blue for all causes of tripping, including overcurrent. Also, as for RCD, 30 mA is good enough for equipment protection, but not good enough for human protection. A person might die with 20 mA maintained through vital parts of the body (even more so if caused by 240V than 120V). In Canada and USA, we have 5 mA with a time of about 30 msec (a bit less than 2 cycles).
Does the test button test the AFDD function or the RCD function? I only see one test button on the device. The new 18th edition test sheets have tick box for the test button operation for AFDD's and another tick box for the RCD's test button function.
The button is supposed to test the whole thing, RCD and AFDD .
@@jwflame Ok, thank you. How do you know if one of them failed the button test ?The RCD and AFFD leavers are joined together. .
@@ProCertsSoftware Unfortunately no way to know. The RCD can be tested with a normal RCD tester, but for the AFDD part the only test is the button, or relying on the device to show a fault via the LED on the front.
How it works with relay? AFDD?
Perhaps the arc detection is deliberately insensitive to avoid nuisance trips? In terms of old switches vs actual faults, it might be a very narrow window to work with. But I'm just speculating...
Hi John love watching your videos they are brilliant. I am not an electrician by trade but was helping a freind with installation can and this has really grabbed my attention. Can you recommend a good textbook on installation design and calculations. Also can you explain the different tupe of Earthing used in England
Thanks
Earthing types in this video: ruclips.net/video/AWxeb2MI37c/видео.html
Many books available but this one covers most of the basics: amzn.to/2GYuKwW
Is this device compulsory in new installs if not I would not have one.
No it is not compulsory at the moment in the U.K.
Thanks for the video =)
But will my arc welder cause it to trip ?
Bigclive has mentioned they reduced the qualifications to be an electrician in UK. The instructions based on happy/sad emojis really play to that.
Wonder if how different brands compare anyone got some thay could check out, I'm not a great fan of eaton gear when there new range of mould case breakers came out a few years ago terminal clamps where falling off ,windows over the trip current setting where missing ,wernt impressed
Thanks, John, I am not enthused by this device especially as it is a 3 module unit and fault interpretation is not clear for most end users. London Fire brigade should stick to their day job.
@@mikeZL3XD7029 most regs that apply to fire prevention come in because of the fire brigade
@pmailkeey agreed, they don't investigate very well. Appliances are the biggest cause of house fires with electricity yet they just put it down as electrical fire and try to prevent the wrong way. Like metal consumer units to prevent fire spreading, instead if addressing what causes the fire, ie loose terminations. Most tails come loose and they could resolve this with 2 screws to tighten down on the cable or have a crimp/ferrule to clamp on instead of stranded cable
@@adrianking6309 Very good points made regarding terminations in consumer units, this is exactly where I see improvements should be made, also there is room for improvement with the screws themselves.
i wont believe so many people who says the device is useless. if it is really so then try to test with an arc fault that actually results in fire (and that of course does not result in mcb and rccb/ or rcbo to trip). If an afdd device still does not trip, then it is a useless device. that will be its real test
What would happen if an ark lamp were plugged in, would it trip?
@Lucky Joestar That does sound nice!
I'm guessing you already know but you get single module normal size MCB & RCD combined and there not the long ones as well. There just the size of a normal MCB.
Something that will be being installed soon and I recon it'll be saying it in the new regs are fault current devices. Clive's done a video on one. There design for TT systems but personally I think they should be in every type of supply's. I've just purchased one (even though I haven't installed it yet) and I live in a new development TN-C-S. You can get them in different kA's, I think the one I've got it 60kA 🤔
You can get cheaper ones that have different breaking loads 20kA & 40kA.
If you've got a lot of electronics (which is every dwelling these days) then I'd highly recommend one. Even though most electronics are designed for over voltage protection but if you loose a phase on your local tranny, it'll shoot way over 400V as most incoming supplies are over 240V.
Mines between 245-248! and I know Clive's got (even though he lives in the middle of nowhere like my nan & grand (TT)) around 245V n so does my nan & grand.
All of these new "laws and regulations" really have worked well changing the voltages even though they haven't.
They should of kept the 240 & 415 as that's what it is and then some.
Sorry I'm ranting like Clive with the "new colour codes"
Over voltage trip would be more useful in the uk as we can get high voltage in from the supply with the loss of neutral. I have witnessed this in a housing estate with the street lights going up in smoke. Apparently these devices don’t work on a ring main ether. Anyone know about this being correct?
Read the BEAMA Guide to AFDD's (Section 9 on page 15)
Good video JW but when can we see you playing the organ?....
So to find out why it’s tripped, you have to close the thing into a potential fault!
Yeah, that seems like a stupid design. Why couldn't they just add a "display fault" button?
Is that an electric organ behind you @
John Ward
Thankyou sir
I was at the Elex Fair at Ally Pally the other day and all the manufacturers were saying if you dont fit arc fault & surge protection in new installs and CU replacements you should get them to sign something saying they didn't want them or you are open to being sued!
What do you guys think, genuine thing to do or scare tactics by manufacturers to sell more devices?
Sounds a bit far fetched to me.
Nice breaker
German company Doepke make these for Eaton. Their AFDDs look exactly the same. Might explain the slow tripping because Doepke offers a version with delayed tripping...
www.doepke.de/en/products/protect/fire-protection-switches-afdd/type-of-residual-current-a/
great video..
John you failed to mention this can't be fitted in consumer units
There is an input for the phone line but not an output???
That globe behind you is irrelevent as Earth is not a ball.
Wylex do 2 module
Ground fault, ark fault, Your fault what will they think of next to get your money?
So what i see, this will not detect earth leakage, infact i see the earth fault loop is not there, so ze is not therer, the protection is in R2, Not extinguished by earth fault current, extinguish by AFDD, C an any one tell me, the mechanical stresses, that could cause this thing to trip
Nice Great : Ranbir Singh Havells India
Great vid as usual but please will you ever take that pathetic round illuminated ball and kick it as far as you can into a body of level water with zero curveture and see if it floats thanks