HI David, your tests seems to be as close as you can safely get to a real world issue, is there any governing body that is actually capable of forcing Companies like Hager to prove their device actually does what they say it will?
I believe standard IEC 62606 applies and I presume Hager and others are rubber stamped to that or whatever else is required. I'm not saying this device doesn't work, just that I haven't been able to force it to work. That said, these faults do represent what a series and parallel arc would look like if you had a genuine loose connection or damaged cable, so I don't know what's missing from my messing around. With AFDDs, we're totally reliant on the manufacturers' claims and that their self-test diagnostic firmware is robust.
@@dsesuk More f'ing "self regulation", it's only as good as the overworked, sleep deprived, Chinese child that put it together in the factory. I'm sure if they actually had to send anything in for real independent testing they'd have tested it to within an inch, or 25mm, of its live before hand.
On a plus note, it's reassuring to know we can now potentially brick our consumer units with a firmware update. Real arc fault detection is made very hard by modern switch mode power supplies and motor drives in cheap appliances. Many have a very aggressive pulsing and sizzling current characteristic that pretty much looks like an arc. I still think these are not needed in the UK as opposed to the wiring sh*t-fest of America.
Let's take a functional device that already has a surprisingly small form factor for its intended purpose of breaking massive fault currents safely, and just stuff it with ill conceived electronic circuitry. I mean - what could go wrong. Maybe it's just as well that they switched back to blast-proof metal consumer units.
I’m also wondering how long these devices will last if they a spamming log files all day long. What happens when they exceed the read and write cycles of whatever chip they are using.
Now we know why the Hager AFDDs have software update capability. This is to enable you to reprogramme them when they actually work out how to make them work!
The thing about bluetooth connectivity and the app is how long are they going to support it for? How many consumer units out there that are 20-30+ years old? Is the current app for a smartphone in 30 years time still going to be able to talk these breakers?
@FrontSideBus I think 20-30 years is a bit optimistic - the capacitors in them will probably fail in about 10 years and cause them to trip all the time or even worse never trip!
Bloody brilliant video mate, more trades need to be sceptical of what we are buying before fully cupping the balls of these manufacturers in front of the whole social media electrical geek community! 👍🏼
Love it, sparks, flash bang and devices not operating! Brilliant demo. I think it would have all worked fine if you offered the AFDD a glass of the fruity stuff first.
By realtime clock they probably mean that it counts time since the trip, which is the only sensible way to do it as you don't want to have to set the time of day into the device, which is going to drift over time and will often never get done. However the app ought to translate the "xx time ago" into a real event time to display it in a more useful way. Would be good to know if it can maintain timekeeping over a power failure.
It was me who assumed there was a clock in there based on being told it logged trip events. It was only when I started playing with it did I realise it was just a basic counter that doesn't tell you much.
@@dsesukthe difference between a clock and a counter is really semantics. On computers The RTC is a counter that started in 1970. Hager made the right decision to just store how far back an event occurred, as even a set clock is going to drift massively over the time frames these things are going to operate over. Mike is right, the app should be translating these offsets into date and time of the event.
@@edc1569 The problem is they're not counting how far back it occured - they're counting how long the device was powered up before it occured. There's no way to relate this to real time - the only knowledge we have is that at an unknown time the device was powered up, it was powered for a known duration, then it tripped and was no longer powered. Great, so we have an hour meter on a piece of machinery - but did it do 1000 hours in its first year and sit for the next 9, or 100 hours a year over 10 years?
David, thank you so much for making the effort to demo this. It’s proper work making these videos, and it’s genuinely appreciated. The findings are astounding, adding “functionality” isn’t worth a damn unless it provides a benefit. The very least the device should do, is react to the faults for which it has been described to do. If it can’t do that, apps and registrations are total snake oil and an added pain in the arse. As an aside, if we are responsible for fitting these devices, the manufacturer should be responsible for developing a device to test it. I would love to see a manufacturer produce a device that can simulate RCD, OL and Arc Faults for us poor bastards who have to second guess what the hell is going on with a device when we’re trying to find a fault. Where’s the kit to eliminate the protective device being at fault, that’s what I want to know!
I love the fact that your AFDD tester is made out of a bin, seems like some good irony there. Great video by the way. Great to see some honesty in the industry instead of the usual bull shit!
Legal grey area, totally different market there's loads of examples of companies having the same name but in totally different industries so it's not a problem.
It’s honestly worse that they (seem) to have a device that tells you it has some capabilities but it doesn’t actually respond as expected. Maybe we should all put pressure on Hager to test the device you tested
Great video David, one can't lie about the arc machine you created, it does exactly what it's supposed too.. Back in the late 80's I worked at GEC designing polyphase electricity meters, we used to do a lot of type testing to check for faults etc and one test we used to nickname the "ba$tard file test" basically a course engineering file within an insulated acrylic box that was connected one end to live and the other end had a mechanism that could be swiped across the file, and connect to the circuit of course all insulated...this would be used to simulate micro arcing to test the meter wouldn't fail (MOV's etc)...you could rig something like this to do single or parallel arcing to further test your proof....BTW adding software to individual breakers is a recipe for disaster, I can just hear the sparky saying you need to reboot the system or in the PC world the good old 3 finger microsoft salute (ctrl+alt+del) !
That shit can get right in the fucking bin. I want install it, test it and give the customer as simple an explanation as possible on how it works and forget all about it until EICR rolls round
What you have there is a very expensive RCD with bluetooth. I was rooting for the Hager bluetooth, I've got a colour deficiency and at times cannot see the colour, a log would have helped.
Great video - all good content about smart consumer units. Ever since you first started looking at AFDDs they've felt to me a bit "emperor's new clothes" - if we all believe they work then they must be working. They fall outside of ohms law and until there's one of those MFT testers you have that has an AFDD test option then I can't understand how their installation can be mandated
Good video David! Thanks. The firmware is the most important component of the AFDD, but is checked last. It was somewhat unusual to see a parallel arc break cable. There was arcing, but the signatures may be different if carbonized cable was used. Can't say anything definitive here. The main source of problems for us are low quality LED lights, treadmills, switching power supplies,...Of course, now we've learned how to work with it.
The reason for this to be built into each separate afdd, is because you can re-programm microcontroller which sits in each individual one. You can't do for obvious reasons with a board level processor. Although it seems logical that Hager or someone else will introduce board level as well. In that case you'll pair afdds to the board and you can update and monitor them centrally.
Fascinating video, even more so that you’re alive to have filmed it. I bet this has caused a shit storm at the Hager offices if it turns out this isn’t an isolated incident
Well this was very interesting I am very surprised the Hager did not trip and you threw everything at it! Would love to see the Fusebox AFDD and any others to see how they perform after this poor showing from Hager. Would be interesting if Consumer Unit World would send you a replacement to test and then you can be 100% that it isn't just a duff unit, if it is a duff unit not looking good on Hager as that self test is BS and where is the quality control?
Excellent video Dave, if you do anything else on this, you should have the AFDD swapped for a new one and repeat your tests to remove any doubt it was just a defective device, I expect the Hager demo gizmo was just a signal injector set up to send perfect waveforms that the AFDD would instantly recognize and trip accordingly
Yeah, I figured it would be a signal injector too - can't see how else they can apply an array of different faults at the push of a button. I could do with a follow-up - perhaps another unit from a different source. It's an expensive game though.
@@dsesuk I don't expect it to be as advanced as a waveform, I suspect this is a special tradestand example whereby the buttons go to a direct input on the AFDD PCB and the microcontroller acts accordingly
Thanks for the mention Dave, yeah it was really warm up here, Sammi says it was the warmest she's ever seen in 30 years 🥵 We ran out of bootlace ferrules while putting them on the cables in the CU, we have now restocked so that will be done as soon as we get back from our impending trip. Oh yeah, that Hager thing looks like a piece of [insert expletive of choice] so I'd certainly throw it back. Take care and see you at the weekend 😋
Excellent! I really think you have to get hold of some other brands to test, and hopefully show positive results from the three simulated fault conditions to took their trouble to create.
Gah. Not everything needs bluetooth and an app. Hager man 1: ‘These manual breakers are too simple. How can we innovate?’ 2: Bluetooth makes everything better! 1: Oooh, how about a poorly developed, crashy app to go with it? 2: Yes! Setting it up will become like trying to quiz a heroin addict slipping in and out of consciousness! *both conga around the room*
It will be interesting to see if anything comes of this, pretty damning for hager though. Wonder if they are all like this or they will just fob it off as one faulty model. Although without any kind of tester out there for this think about how many faulty ones have already been installed.
that tripping device hager had i have been thinking about that all week i have some ideas. great to see the daswacan back in action and back on the old camcorder. i think you should open a competion who can get the hager afdd to trip
Good video (like normal), I have a lot of interest in this as I have two different 32A Hager AFDD’s, installed in different boards, both randomly tripping in series arc on a pure ring circuit (which it can’t apparently see), all sockets removed and wagos in-place, RN+R1+R2 readings are all good on each leg, swapped with different Hager AFDD’s. When the Rings are split into radials and the split moved every week or so it won’t trip at all. I can’t sort out the random tripping. I’m going to Exeter Elex so planning on raising it (again).
Do any of these AFDD devices actually remember the fault status of the last trip AFTER they have been reset? Such that pushing the status button will show the trip status. In a real life situation the householder will almost certainly have reset them, probably without noting the status. Particularly since it is done through a single flashing LED. It is a problem that started with RCBOs - you cannot see if the trip was over current or leakage.
Usually the LED status indicator holds the last condition until the indicator itself is reset, although I have seen a device which only gave a brief indication before resetting to a 'nominal' indication.
It's working perfectly - like all AFDD's, it's supposed to do absolutely nothing when it comes to real world arc faults. It's the Siemens model that isn't working correctly as it detects arc faults and actually does something...which is not normal. Most AFDD's have been designed to only detect your money and take it.
Hi David, In one of your videos your Hager pilot app only shows "Automation / Add a hub" not the bluetooth AFDD options, getting exactly the same thing after downloading and registering the app, re-install makes no difference, how did you resolve?
Will be interesting to see Hager’s response, which they must do now. A wild guess, they may respond their units are programmed to ignore false positives and need a longer arching period to trip. I wait with bated breath :-)
My update is I couldn’t get it to trip and I had the back of the test socket melting and on fire 😡 Was definitely arcing than sparking parts of the time and you clearly had an arc singing. Now where do I stand. The reason I installed them and it doesn’t even work. My test was on the older firmware. Haven’t tried updating as you’ve already tried it on that.
A great DSES classic style video with lots of useful questions Hager might have difficulty in answering. One of the points you raised that I would love to get their reasoning behind relates to firmware updates and who is supposed to do them and how often? I don't use the brand as i think they're well over priced but for those loyal sparkies that do, do they have to price into their quote numerous returns to do the upgrade because they are not able to be hacked or updated remotely. Will the IT-iliterate customer have to have a go themselves because they can't afford a sparkly to do it every time and ultimately..... why bother if they don't actually work!!!! Keep your eye on the post though because as we are on the doorstep of October, Christmas party invites will soon be dispatched and your Hager one might be just around the corner, to thank you for bumping their year end sale figures for this device😂😂😂 Keep up your fantastic work Old Bean 👏
its bad enough that the switchboard manufacturers pushed for these or as you said previously in your AFDD install video "to some, already sniffs of snake oil". I'm sure it repels tigers very well too. hopefully this is just a faulty unit or maybe even the firmware isn't set correctly.
How many burnt out shower isolators have we all been called out to replace, that would have had much less arcing than you created here. This really is quite worrying. There needs to be some sort of test instrument that we can use on site to verify the functionality of AFDD's before we go slinging them in all over the place.
Shower isolators are the number 1 where AFDDs can do something useful, but A2 is only pushing them for socket circuits, so builders will get cheap and omit them for showers I expect.
That's you well amd truly off hagers Christmas card list 😂 never used hager but always thought they where the dogs bollocks just coz so many sparks rate it. Very interesting and useful video thanks dave keep em coming
I think they're perfectly fine as a brand, but others put them on a pedestal that, in my opinion, they shouldn't be on. Their pricing is cack and some of their products are awful. Did you ever see a pre-Amendment 3 insulated board of theirs you could close the flap on??
Or that had the stupid quarter turn plastic cover screws that broke on cover removal for an EICR/Additional circuit on Con Units more than two years old. @@dsesuk
I've got a CU full of these (testing them out, varying sizes) at a cost of about £1400 just to see what they were like. Only ever had them trip on RCD for damaged cabling & short circuit from my UPS starting up. No arc faults yet, even with unplugging and re-plugging in a 2kW heater. Updating the firmware is a bitch, the 'personal notes' will not stick and they take up a ton of space. Wiring in the house is mainly 20 years old at this point but has been well maintained. I wouldn't install these for other people but I'll probably leave them in at this point as my CU is in an awkward place. A little birdie tells me they have 'compromises in design' also (edit: all single mod AFDDs will have these 'compromises') make of that what you will.
Brilliant video Dave, absolutely get hold of other brands, would love to see the FuseBox offering as we’ve almost exclusively moved over to their brands and would love to see how their product behaves. Keep up the entertaining videos, you should have so many more subscribers 👍👍
Your Siemens AFDD works well but red is a really peculiar colour choice to indicate that a fault monitoring device is detecting a healthy condition. Really not sure what the hell they were thinking there. That Hager unit is about as useful as a chocolate teapot.
I agree. I made the same point back in the day in the earlier vids; I don't know why they went for red over green. I used to work in comms where we trained people up on hardware. One manufacturer, Newbridge Networks (bought by Alcatel in 2000), used to confuse because one piece of hardware had either a yellow or a green LED for normal operation which interchanged between batches. When quizzed, their guy said they went for whichever colour they could get slightly cheaper at the time of manufacture.
Hi David - Just watched a RUclips video by Bitluni on testing Huawei solar inverters etc. at university lab in Cyprus. The inverters include DC AFDDs and it was interesting to see that their arc fault creation device was identical to yours! OK they didn’t use Lego and old bolts, but in principle it was just the same - take a look!
Holy Sh 1t! That's mad! Genuinely can't believe how bad that is! I'd understand if it was some cheap, no-name Temu nonsense, you might understand it.. but.. wow!
Wow that was interesting. As for the app who phone is it supposed to be on? The installer or the clients? Also I think you have proved that that Hager really needs to have a rethink and redesign these things and ditch the pointless Bluetooth connectivity. . Thank mate for a fantastic video. 👍👍
What about people who don't have (or want) "smart" phones or other devices..? Personally I wouldn't touch anything that claims to be "smart" with a very long pole.
Ohh am off to Elec Exeter this week, might pop by the Hager stand with a life size cardboard cut out of you for them to display. Any suggestions for the speech bubble?😉
Another great episode David. Hagar cooked their goose with me years ago regarding pricing and then the mcb recall farce! I'm going to Elex Exeter and will be avoiding them.
Great video Dave as always 👌 I am a tad worried now though. Hager is my go to brand on commercial work and I installed 20 of these earlier this year in a care home 🤔 it’s insane that AFDD’s were brought to market with no way of testing. I wonder if Hager will comment on your video. Thanks for sharing
Remember that my pissing around is hardly to any standard or lab conditions. If Hager are your flavour, then there's no need to doubt their gear isn't fit for purpose - they've had it tested and approved. Maybe my particular unit or method of testing is at fault; I honestly don't know, although I did expect my model to react to the conditions I subjected it to. Even if you have installed these and they don't stop the arc fault electrical fire that burns down your care home, you won't be at fault because Hager said their goodies were good and there was no way for you to prove otherwise short of observing a green LED and it tripping off when the button was pushed. Not that it helps all those who died in the fire, but I don't want you losing any sleep over it!
Good video David, . I concern is arc faults on the main bus bar and meter tails where I find most arc faults. I sure you see main switches melt along with breakers melting on the bus bar.
Funny, I’ve played round with the Hager AFDDs and can’t make it trip either! However, we have an on going issue on a job where they were used and it’s tripping out intermittently! This is concerning!
You won't trip them by rubbing wires together, but increasing the contact size by using something like 15mm brass plumbing stop-ends seems to generally work. Aside from that, the Lego is just a mechanical means of moving one contact to the other without getting your fingers too close. All I have on the construction is in this video: ruclips.net/video/e0ElFaKc_e8/видео.htmlsi=pVB7jq05J7gQ9BwS&t=976
@@dsesuk thanks I have been trying to just make a slight connections. The bouncing and rubbing for big sparks is just cuz tik Tok algorithm needs the first 5 seconds to be catchy
Given arc fault detection is using digital signal processing, it would be unlikely implementing a central multi-channel system with a single processor would be more cost effective as they would potentially need multiple processing cores or a CPU fast enough to handle 16+ circuits simultaneously. This might change at the point they designed a custom multi-channel ASIC and achieve sufficient volume. It is very short sighted for them to assume an installer will individually configure all of these, though in future this could be centralized if all units are linked via Bluetooth mesh or otherwise connect to a central device via Bluetooth or a wired interface. This could possibly already be done with current hardware and may be in their future firmware plans. I suspect they will do this in future.
That's what I was thinking. The button box is just that probably - I reckon the clever stuff is inside that CU. I'd like five minutes alone with it and a screwdriver!
Did you ever experience any false tripping due to arc faults since your consumer unit upgrade? I've heard some people from the US complain that theirs tripped whenever they used their vacuum cleaner.
I've had two AFDD trips on two different modules since putting them in at the end of 2020. In each case, I couldn't account for the fault and it didn't repeat when the device was reset.
Just a quick question . I am lead to believe that in order for the AFDD to work you have to ramp up the load current to quite a high level of arching for it to trip but if there was a small amount of arching going on somewhere on a circuit a fire could still ignite . Especially where next to something inflammable ie an old oily rag lying about in a loft space next to a junction box or whatever So whats the point of the device at all.
I was always surprised that 18th Edition recommended AFDDs for circuits of 32A or lower when it's shower isolators I see the most arc damage on at 32A or higher. In my prior videos, I couldn't force an AFDD trip on a load of less than about a kiloWatt. Arcing can happen on something like a LED lighting circuit, but the energy levels are generally too low for a series fault which is the most common arc type. A parallel fault would need the kind of damage and external influences I applied to my cable here. That said, any kind of arc - even a small one - near flammable materials or in a flammable atmosphere could result in a lot of bother.
Hmm, connecting AFDD's to an internet device (your phone), what could go wrong? 🙄 I'm sure some marketing muppet thought this was a good idea and didn't think it through.
Never did trust "smart" stuff. I don't need my fridge ordering groceries for me or my lights going on and off like a disco. And don't get me started on so-called "smart" phones... My Nokia 6310i has done me for the past 20 years, it makes phone calls and sends the occasional SMS, which is all I need a phone for.
This is worrying. I need to install some afdd's and won't be trusting Hager after this. The only thing I can think of is that it may self calibrate to the circuits characteristics. That wouldn't be wise for socket circuits though. There's another range of afdds with a arm code. I don't know if they will be any better and it doesn't excuse this product.
The Bluetooth and phone setup seen on the Elex video made me 99% certain I'd never touch one of these and this video has now added the final 1%. To be honest if I'd not seen the Elex vid then this would have done it for me. Sometimes these companies try to be more clever than they actually need to be. What a pile of Hager crap.
Here is why electrium have rushed to develop miniature afdds. Social housing. Thats it. Crabtree and wylex are massive in social housing spec. And social housing are fitting afdds like crazy following grenfell. A town near me has fitted new consumer units, spds and afdds on every circuit in every flat in their high rise stock.
Common problem with trade shows of all industries; staffed of salespeople and the technical staff aren't allowed out of the R&D office. 7 years at a company and I met the customer twice, right at the end when I was trusted.
I definitely find this kind of cack interesting David lol. What a load absolute shite that is, no excuse such as “not proper lab conditions” will be suffice here, end of the the day if that arcing was within an installation that device should seeing that signature, Hager didn’t account for the old Davo Savo critique to start arcing out their devices for the world to see. Seriously tho after seeing this how could anyone have an ounce of confidence installing their AFDD’s. Great video and great work David ✌️
Great video, it’s good to see new products like this reviewed by an installer with real world experience - Bluetooth doesn’t always make things better!
Yep, very interesting video. I'd suggest you keep Mark's generous donation to go towards a legal fund you're probably going to need once Hager's lawyers mobilize in your direction. Hope I'm wrong, genuine unsponsored, unfiltered product reviews are too few and far between.
@@andrewd762 I don't think there's anything illegal here. It's just my opinion and my attempts to force the thing to operate in a way where I believe it ought to. I never said the product was crap or that it doesn't work, merely that I can't get it to work, unlike my Siemens/Wylex models, which forces me to question its efficacy. There's no means for installers to properly test such devices; we're totally reliant on the manufacturer telling us they've made it right and it's clever enough to keep tabs on its own sanity. I'm happy for Hager to tell me why they think I've been unsuccessful, but there's nothing here that can win them a takedown of this content.
@dsesuk They've been legislated as required in the US for several years now so most of the testers are US market based. Klein Tools do a combination GFCI / AFCI tester but I'm not sure if it's available as a 230v 50hz version. also Fox Meter Inc developed a portable tester which I think is now badged as a Greenlee, again I'm not sure if it's UK compliant. Both of these testers were fairly cheap.
@@andrewd762 Thing is with the US AFCIs, they're not processor based from what I've seen. They're $30 dollar devices the US have been fitted for years, so perhaps work in a different way to the ARM hardware turning up over here. It is possible to make a signal injector that will show an AFDD in action - that's probably exactly what Hager have on their stand, but an MFT manufacturer told me IEC 62606 demands "the Test type requires 'real' arc not waveform simulated by electronic devices" and that the energy dissipated would be more than an MFT can cope with: "Example: 230V x 63A x 0.12s = 1738 Joule ( our loop tester works currently with a max energy : 460V x 10A x 0.01s = 46 Joule )"
Plus what if there is no or at best a poor data connection anywhere near the property or worse comes to worse the firmware update fails, who pays for the replacement? OH BTW is there a cast iron guaranteed number of years they are supporting these devices or is the end user going to recieve a letter in 5 or 6 years saying all that expensive hardware is no longer going to work after a certain date?
What happens when something like the Bluetooth protocol moves on? Who expects their iPhone fifteen years from now to have a Bluetooth protocol that's compatible with what these use if Hager can't, or won't, update them? It's a can of worms.
Hi Dave, great Video. I have never been a fan of hager but Wow, and i thought the Hager RCD's not tripping in time when tested was bad. That AFDD isnt fit for purpose. What a piece of Garbage.
Well that RCD 5x thing was a whole other debacle of course. Why Hager ever thought they could release a product to market that many MFTs couldn't test to the version of BS7671 out at the time was full on nuts. To think BS7671 had to change to sort out that mess is madness!
If Hager really wants to smartify their range while also considering the installer's time and patience, they should replace the data-harvesting excuse of a bluetooth app with a low-power mesh network similar to cheap Hue/Zigbee bulbs. Firmware and other "learned information" could then be updated as a cascading deployment after being triggered once. A simple management device made for installers could start the propagation, download fault logs, etc. Given amendment 2 by and large wants AFDD's in commercial developments, where hundreds could be installed, not considering deployment at scale is such an unforced error. They're leaving money on the table too as we'd stick with one brand if we knew installing a brand new Hager AFDD in the CU could quietly update all the older AFDD's in the building to the latest firmware (just like bulbs do).
Good video David. I find it personally enthusiastic the way Hager markets this device. It's challenging enough trying to keep software up to date with smart home gadgets and hardware, but on safety devices is a bit too much. I get it for the likes of ACB's that need remote switching and monitoring for higher currents in commercial & industrial environments, but in a domestic setting, 40A and below realistically, it's overkill and not needed. Especially when the home owners 9 times out of 10 never test their RCD every 6 months!!!
Good to test a third brand in the same way - does it behave like the Siemens or like the Hager? The former proves how I perceive these things to work, the latter perhaps shows there's something missing from my tests.
I bet they will come up with some sort of argument about the device not being left for long enough before an arc being induced. It's still an incredibly worrying perspective if so, as that would potentially mean that an existing arc on a board change may be ignored. As for it being the correct signature, there are plenty of guys tapping wires together to create an arc, but the devices would only potentially see this as switching arc, but for your devices, they are sustained for definite. Really glad I saw this before installing a board in an HMO. I would love to see some sort of response from Hager to support their product, but I feel it will be weak at best!
I'm sure they'll figure my testing wasn't real life. Although, had that loose connection been on the back of a socket outlet with a heater or granny charger plugged in, I would suspect it would be melting before this thing reacts.
@@dsesuk Exactly. I just feel like they will say some tosh along the lines of "but it needs to be initialised", leaving an already problematic circuit with an arc either forever, or until it has finished initialising or whatever. I'm here on edge waiting on some form or response though. Surely.
MK has their Logic Plus range, so the tech to have a single management unit is there, their point that its nearly cheaper to put it all in one unit is fairly true as it will be the same ESP type module to do the comms, but the better solution would be to have say a din rail controller, with separate buttons to pair a new module and a button to allow "quick access" for an installer without the need for all registration which times out after say 15 mins, but the controller could also connect to WiFi and handle any firmware updates or remote monitoring if that is needed Unless its a BMS based system, home stuff should not require registration to single installers etc. It seems to be a designed by a Product team without real world users or forsight to how it will actually be used, normally happens when the people setting such decisions have not been at the sharp end.
A properly designed smart consumer unit range would not need devices to be paired. Just the L + N busbar contacts and a small data connector (probably carrying SPI). The devices would be addressed by physical position and identify themselves to the master CPU. So no configuration required on adding or changing a device, just simple plug and play. But I expect the manufacturers would take 2 or 3 generations of unusable abortions to get to this arrangement though.
@@dsesuk I have a few of these in the garage, but didn't have any arc trip events with those. Actually the older type (2 units wide, AFDD and MCB only) do work, as I did have a single oven melt the 13A fuse/plug that was pre-fitted, so perhaps they've gone backwards with the new design.
@@sdgelectronics Yeah, I recall Hager were two-mod units with no earth leakage protection back when I was installing my Wylex all-in-ones back in 2020. I wonder if they've got too clever with these?
@@mikeselectricstuff I'm always very apprehensive whenever I have to do a firmware update, I'm convinced the device whatever it is will turn into a very expensive brick. It's not happened so far, but it's sure to one day 😵💫
Corruption? Yes, that will be it. There's probably some small print saying it mustn't be installed on circuits that could be subjected to arcing spikes!
HI David, your tests seems to be as close as you can safely get to a real world issue, is there any governing body that is actually capable of forcing Companies like Hager to prove their device actually does what they say it will?
I believe standard IEC 62606 applies and I presume Hager and others are rubber stamped to that or whatever else is required. I'm not saying this device doesn't work, just that I haven't been able to force it to work. That said, these faults do represent what a series and parallel arc would look like if you had a genuine loose connection or damaged cable, so I don't know what's missing from my messing around. With AFDDs, we're totally reliant on the manufacturers' claims and that their self-test diagnostic firmware is robust.
@@dsesuk More f'ing "self regulation", it's only as good as the overworked, sleep deprived, Chinese child that put it together in the factory.
I'm sure if they actually had to send anything in for real independent testing they'd have tested it to within an inch, or 25mm, of its live before hand.
@@dsesuk And this is a thing, they may update tripping logic later on without issues, where other cannot ;)
@@paulf3353 They best get updating then as, as it stands, it's friggin useless.
On a plus note, it's reassuring to know we can now potentially brick our consumer units with a firmware update.
Real arc fault detection is made very hard by modern switch mode power supplies and motor drives in cheap appliances. Many have a very aggressive pulsing and sizzling current characteristic that pretty much looks like an arc.
I still think these are not needed in the UK as opposed to the wiring sh*t-fest of America.
Let's take a functional device that already has a surprisingly small form factor for its intended purpose of breaking massive fault currents safely, and just stuff it with ill conceived electronic circuitry. I mean - what could go wrong.
Maybe it's just as well that they switched back to blast-proof metal consumer units.
I’m also wondering how long these devices will last if they a spamming log files all day long. What happens when they exceed the read and write cycles of whatever chip they are using.
@@M0LHA The likelihood of their internal power supply failing within a few years is also probably quite high.
Now we know why the Hager AFDDs have software update capability. This is to enable you to reprogramme them when they actually work out how to make them work!
The thing about bluetooth connectivity and the app is how long are they going to support it for? How many consumer units out there that are 20-30+ years old? Is the current app for a smartphone in 30 years time still going to be able to talk these breakers?
@FrontSideBus I think 20-30 years is a bit optimistic - the capacitors in them will probably fail in about 10 years and cause them to trip all the time or even worse never trip!
I have no wish to see your kitchen roll soaked in salty fluids, but glad there's someone pointing out the nonsense of these devices ...
It took me a few minutes to get that Kleenex just right for fizzing up.
Bloody brilliant video mate, more trades need to be sceptical of what we are buying before fully cupping the balls of these manufacturers in front of the whole social media electrical geek community! 👍🏼
Love it, sparks, flash bang and devices not operating! Brilliant demo. I think it would have all worked fine if you offered the AFDD a glass of the fruity stuff first.
Pouring booze into it, rather than into me, might have got it doing something of interest Mark.
Even I work after a glass of the fruity stuff 😅😅
By realtime clock they probably mean that it counts time since the trip, which is the only sensible way to do it as you don't want to have to set the time of day into the device, which is going to drift over time and will often never get done.
However the app ought to translate the "xx time ago" into a real event time to display it in a more useful way. Would be good to know if it can maintain timekeeping over a power failure.
It was me who assumed there was a clock in there based on being told it logged trip events. It was only when I started playing with it did I realise it was just a basic counter that doesn't tell you much.
@@dsesukthe difference between a clock and a counter is really semantics. On computers
The RTC is a counter that started in 1970. Hager made the right decision to just store how far back an event occurred, as even a set clock is going to drift massively over the time frames these things are going to operate over. Mike is right, the app should be translating these offsets into date and time of the event.
@@edc1569 The problem is they're not counting how far back it occured - they're counting how long the device was powered up before it occured. There's no way to relate this to real time - the only knowledge we have is that at an unknown time the device was powered up, it was powered for a known duration, then it tripped and was no longer powered. Great, so we have an hour meter on a piece of machinery - but did it do 1000 hours in its first year and sit for the next 9, or 100 hours a year over 10 years?
David, thank you so much for making the effort to demo this. It’s proper work making these videos, and it’s genuinely appreciated. The findings are astounding, adding “functionality” isn’t worth a damn unless it provides a benefit. The very least the device should do, is react to the faults for which it has been described to do. If it can’t do that, apps and registrations are total snake oil and an added pain in the arse. As an aside, if we are responsible for fitting these devices, the manufacturer should be responsible for developing a device to test it. I would love to see a manufacturer produce a device that can simulate RCD, OL and Arc Faults for us poor bastards who have to second guess what the hell is going on with a device when we’re trying to find a fault. Where’s the kit to eliminate the protective device being at fault, that’s what I want to know!
I love the fact that your AFDD tester is made out of a bin, seems like some good irony there. Great video by the way. Great to see some honesty in the industry instead of the usual bull shit!
The maker of the Pro Tools audio software might have something to say about Hager using the same name for their software...
Legal grey area, totally different market there's loads of examples of companies having the same name but in totally different industries so it's not a problem.
It’s honestly worse that they (seem) to have a device that tells you it has some capabilities but it doesn’t actually respond as expected. Maybe we should all put pressure on Hager to test the device you tested
Wow-crazy results.! I have five of these fitted at home and now feeling quite ripped off… Will you let us know if Hager ever responds?
electrocutions are finally feeling the pain of undue logic and bs like us mechanics have had to deal with for years lol
Interesting video i really think manufacturers should take your advice onboard. Good vid as always dave!
Cheers Jimbo. Maybe they'll hire you to be their spanner and screwdriver man on the stand next time?? My fee's 25% by the way.
Great video David, one can't lie about the arc machine you created, it does exactly what it's supposed too.. Back in the late 80's I worked at GEC designing polyphase electricity meters, we used to do a lot of type testing to check for faults etc and one test we used to nickname the "ba$tard file test" basically a course engineering file within an insulated acrylic box that was connected one end to live and the other end had a mechanism that could be swiped across the file, and connect to the circuit of course all insulated...this would be used to simulate micro arcing to test the meter wouldn't fail (MOV's etc)...you could rig something like this to do single or parallel arcing to further test your proof....BTW adding software to individual breakers is a recipe for disaster, I can just hear the sparky saying you need to reboot the system or in the PC world the good old 3 finger microsoft salute (ctrl+alt+del) !
Your breaker won't reset? Have you tried pulling the main fuse and putting it back in again?
Extra points: he built that arc tester out of LEGO. At least parts of it... Even the beestriping is a LEGO part.
That shit can get right in the fucking bin.
I want install it, test it and give the customer as simple an explanation as possible on how it works and forget all about it until EICR rolls round
What you have there is a very expensive RCD with bluetooth.
I was rooting for the Hager bluetooth, I've got a colour deficiency and at times cannot see the colour, a log would have helped.
Great video - all good content about smart consumer units. Ever since you first started looking at AFDDs they've felt to me a bit "emperor's new clothes" - if we all believe they work then they must be working. They fall outside of ohms law and until there's one of those MFT testers you have that has an AFDD test option then I can't understand how their installation can be mandated
Good video David! Thanks.
The firmware is the most important component of the AFDD, but is checked last.
It was somewhat unusual to see a parallel arc break cable. There was arcing, but the signatures may be different if carbonized cable was used. Can't say anything definitive here.
The main source of problems for us are low quality LED lights, treadmills, switching power supplies,...Of course, now we've learned how to work with it.
The reason for this to be built into each separate afdd, is because you can re-programm microcontroller which sits in each individual one. You can't do for obvious reasons with a board level processor. Although it seems logical that Hager or someone else will introduce board level as well. In that case you'll pair afdds to the board and you can update and monitor them centrally.
Fascinating video, even more so that you’re alive to have filmed it. I bet this has caused a shit storm at the Hager offices if it turns out this isn’t an isolated incident
Well this was very interesting I am very surprised the Hager did not trip and you threw everything at it! Would love to see the Fusebox AFDD and any others to see how they perform after this poor showing from Hager.
Would be interesting if Consumer Unit World would send you a replacement to test and then you can be 100% that it isn't just a duff unit, if it is a duff unit not looking good on Hager as that self test is BS and where is the quality control?
Excellent video Dave, if you do anything else on this, you should have the AFDD swapped for a new one and repeat your tests to remove any doubt it was just a defective device, I expect the Hager demo gizmo was just a signal injector set up to send perfect waveforms that the AFDD would instantly recognize and trip accordingly
Yeah, I figured it would be a signal injector too - can't see how else they can apply an array of different faults at the push of a button. I could do with a follow-up - perhaps another unit from a different source. It's an expensive game though.
@@dsesuk I don't expect it to be as advanced as a waveform, I suspect this is a special tradestand example whereby the buttons go to a direct input on the AFDD PCB and the microcontroller acts accordingly
Thanks for the mention Dave, yeah it was really warm up here, Sammi says it was the warmest she's ever seen in 30 years 🥵
We ran out of bootlace ferrules while putting them on the cables in the CU, we have now restocked so that will be done as soon as we get back from our impending trip. Oh yeah, that Hager thing looks like a piece of [insert expletive of choice] so I'd certainly throw it back. Take care and see you at the weekend 😋
Catch you down the pub at the weekend!
@@dsesuk Where else..? 🤣
Excellent! I really think you have to get hold of some other brands to test, and hopefully show positive results from the three simulated fault conditions to took their trouble to create.
Watching your arcing goes very well with the local thermal effect of my cuppa.
Gah. Not everything needs bluetooth and an app.
Hager man 1: ‘These manual breakers are too simple. How can we innovate?’
2: Bluetooth makes everything better!
1: Oooh, how about a poorly developed, crashy app to go with it?
2: Yes! Setting it up will become like trying to quiz a heroin addict slipping in and out of consciousness!
*both conga around the room*
It will be interesting to see if anything comes of this, pretty damning for hager though. Wonder if they are all like this or they will just fob it off as one faulty model. Although without any kind of tester out there for this think about how many faulty ones have already been installed.
There should be a real world test meter that replicates your contraptions.
Great video as always
that tripping device hager had i have been thinking about that all week i have some ideas. great to see the daswacan back in action and back on the old camcorder. i think you should open a competion who can get the hager afdd to trip
Can't go wrong with the old Canon! At least I know it's bothering to record the flippin' audio!
Great video. I can’t think of anything worse than a smart protective device!
It’s typical over complication of a device for the sake of it! Madness!
Fantastic real live scenario video dad , but I need some new shoes and you brought AFDD,s
It was expensive Junior. I'm afraid you're having cornflakes for all your meals too this week.
Good video (like normal), I have a lot of interest in this as I have two different 32A Hager AFDD’s, installed in different boards, both randomly tripping in series arc on a pure ring circuit (which it can’t apparently see), all sockets removed and wagos in-place, RN+R1+R2 readings are all good on each leg, swapped with different Hager AFDD’s.
When the Rings are split into radials and the split moved every week or so it won’t trip at all.
I can’t sort out the random tripping.
I’m going to Exeter Elex so planning on raising it (again).
Do any of these AFDD devices actually remember the fault status of the last trip AFTER they have been reset? Such that pushing the status button will show the trip status. In a real life situation the householder will almost certainly have reset them, probably without noting the status. Particularly since it is done through a single flashing LED.
It is a problem that started with RCBOs - you cannot see if the trip was over current or leakage.
Usually the LED status indicator holds the last condition until the indicator itself is reset, although I have seen a device which only gave a brief indication before resetting to a 'nominal' indication.
I think That you should be a stand up comedian for Sparkys. So funny. Massive respect for your video excellence.
It's working perfectly - like all AFDD's, it's supposed to do absolutely nothing when it comes to real world arc faults.
It's the Siemens model that isn't working correctly as it detects arc faults and actually does something...which is not normal.
Most AFDD's have been designed to only detect your money and take it.
This AFDD feature is the best I've seen.
Hi David, In one of your videos your Hager pilot app only shows "Automation / Add a hub" not the bluetooth AFDD options, getting exactly the same thing after downloading and registering the app, re-install makes no difference, how did you resolve?
In my case, uninstalling and reinstalling the Pilot app did the trick.
Will be interesting to see Hager’s response, which they must do now. A wild guess, they may respond their units are programmed to ignore false positives and need a longer arching period to trip. I wait with bated breath :-)
I can’t really see how much more, “benefit of the doubt” that you can give Hager?
Great video!
Im telling ya...if this man became Tutor i would become a full time student for every class he gave......absolutely brilliant
Concerning seen as I have 11 of the bastards in my board. Please try another one. I’ll have a go and let you know if I can manage. 🤦🏻
My update is I couldn’t get it to trip and I had the back of the test socket melting and on fire 😡 Was definitely arcing than sparking parts of the time and you clearly had an arc singing. Now where do I stand. The reason I installed them and it doesn’t even work. My test was on the older firmware. Haven’t tried updating as you’ve already tried it on that.
@@robintodd3901well the batch fault theory isn’t lookin good
A great DSES classic style video with lots of useful questions Hager might have difficulty in answering. One of the points you raised that I would love to get their reasoning behind relates to firmware updates and who is supposed to do them and how often? I don't use the brand as i think they're well over priced but for those loyal sparkies that do, do they have to price into their quote numerous returns to do the upgrade because they are not able to be hacked or updated remotely. Will the IT-iliterate customer have to have a go themselves because they can't afford a sparkly to do it every time and ultimately..... why bother if they don't actually work!!!! Keep your eye on the post though because as we are on the doorstep of October, Christmas party invites will soon be dispatched and your Hager one might be just around the corner, to thank you for bumping their year end sale figures for this device😂😂😂 Keep up your fantastic work Old Bean 👏
If Hager invite me anywhere, I assume it'll be a dark room with the Central Sales Team all present and armed with socks crammed with snooker balls.
@@dsesuk I was hoping that might be the inference without me putting my head above the parapet. 🤣 I'll miss your videos when you're gone!
its bad enough that the switchboard manufacturers pushed for these or as you said previously in your AFDD install video "to some, already sniffs of snake oil".
I'm sure it repels tigers very well too. hopefully this is just a faulty unit or maybe even the firmware isn't set correctly.
How many burnt out shower isolators have we all been called out to replace, that would have had much less arcing than you created here. This really is quite worrying. There needs to be some sort of test instrument that we can use on site to verify the functionality of AFDD's before we go slinging them in all over the place.
Shower isolators are the number 1 where AFDDs can do something useful, but A2 is only pushing them for socket circuits, so builders will get cheap and omit them for showers I expect.
That's you well amd truly off hagers Christmas card list 😂 never used hager but always thought they where the dogs bollocks just coz so many sparks rate it. Very interesting and useful video thanks dave keep em coming
I think they're perfectly fine as a brand, but others put them on a pedestal that, in my opinion, they shouldn't be on. Their pricing is cack and some of their products are awful. Did you ever see a pre-Amendment 3 insulated board of theirs you could close the flap on??
Or that had the stupid quarter turn plastic cover screws that broke on cover removal for an EICR/Additional circuit on Con Units more than two years old. @@dsesuk
I've got a CU full of these (testing them out, varying sizes) at a cost of about £1400 just to see what they were like. Only ever had them trip on RCD for damaged cabling & short circuit from my UPS starting up. No arc faults yet, even with unplugging and re-plugging in a 2kW heater. Updating the firmware is a bitch, the 'personal notes' will not stick and they take up a ton of space. Wiring in the house is mainly 20 years old at this point but has been well maintained. I wouldn't install these for other people but I'll probably leave them in at this point as my CU is in an awkward place. A little birdie tells me they have 'compromises in design' also (edit: all single mod AFDDs will have these 'compromises') make of that what you will.
Can’t see installers queuing up to fit Hager units.
Brilliant video Dave, absolutely get hold of other brands, would love to see the FuseBox offering as we’ve almost exclusively moved over to their brands and would love to see how their product behaves.
Keep up the entertaining videos, you should have so many more subscribers 👍👍
The stats show most people watch without subscribing. I think I'm a few people's dirty little secret they don't want to admit to!
@@dsesukprobably 😂 extremely entertaining though as well as informative. Subbed twice to make up for it mate 👍
Your Siemens AFDD works well but red is a really peculiar colour choice to indicate that a fault monitoring device is detecting a healthy condition. Really not sure what the hell they were thinking there. That Hager unit is about as useful as a chocolate teapot.
I agree. I made the same point back in the day in the earlier vids; I don't know why they went for red over green. I used to work in comms where we trained people up on hardware. One manufacturer, Newbridge Networks (bought by Alcatel in 2000), used to confuse because one piece of hardware had either a yellow or a green LED for normal operation which interchanged between batches. When quizzed, their guy said they went for whichever colour they could get slightly cheaper at the time of manufacture.
Strangely could smell the arcing from here with the Hager in place 😂
Hi David - Just watched a RUclips video by Bitluni on testing Huawei solar inverters etc. at university lab in Cyprus. The inverters include DC AFDDs and it was interesting to see that their arc fault creation device was identical to yours! OK they didn’t use Lego and old bolts, but in principle it was just the same - take a look!
Holy Sh 1t! That's mad! Genuinely can't believe how bad that is! I'd understand if it was some cheap, no-name Temu nonsense, you might understand it.. but.. wow!
Of what good is an arc fault protective device that even an obvious arc fault that you see with your own eyes does not trip?
Aye. There should be enough energy in my snap, crackle and pop machine to get this thing shitting its knickers, but I'll be damned if I can fool it.
Wow that was interesting.
As for the app who phone is it supposed to be on? The installer or the clients?
Also I think you have proved that that Hager really needs to have a rethink and redesign these things and ditch the pointless Bluetooth connectivity. .
Thank mate for a fantastic video. 👍👍
Cheers Sean
You ok mate .
What about people who don't have (or want) "smart" phones or other devices..? Personally I wouldn't touch anything that claims to be "smart" with a very long pole.
Ohh am off to Elec Exeter this week, might pop by the Hager stand with a life size cardboard cut out of you for them to display. Any suggestions for the speech bubble?😉
"DON'T BUY OUR SPUNK - BUY SIEMENS"
Another great episode David. Hagar cooked their goose with me years ago regarding pricing and then the mcb recall farce! I'm going to Elex Exeter and will be avoiding them.
Blows my mind that the IET hasn’t standardised what the flashing light on an AFDD means, would save millions in people’s time
I had this debate with the Hager rep at CEF Live.
They're too busy making-up new coloured books to flog you.
I’m surprised the Europeans didn’t do it on our behalf, seems to be how we operate these days.
Great video Dave as always 👌 I am a tad worried now though. Hager is my go to brand on commercial work and I installed 20 of these earlier this year in a care home 🤔 it’s insane that AFDD’s were brought to market with no way of testing.
I wonder if Hager will comment on your video. Thanks for sharing
Remember that my pissing around is hardly to any standard or lab conditions. If Hager are your flavour, then there's no need to doubt their gear isn't fit for purpose - they've had it tested and approved. Maybe my particular unit or method of testing is at fault; I honestly don't know, although I did expect my model to react to the conditions I subjected it to. Even if you have installed these and they don't stop the arc fault electrical fire that burns down your care home, you won't be at fault because Hager said their goodies were good and there was no way for you to prove otherwise short of observing a green LED and it tripping off when the button was pushed. Not that it helps all those who died in the fire, but I don't want you losing any sleep over it!
@@dsesuk Yes that’s a fair point, I won’t lose any sleep but like you I would have expected the device to trip under those conditions. Interesting
Good video David, . I concern is arc faults on the main bus bar and meter tails where I find most arc faults. I sure you see main switches melt along with breakers melting on the bus bar.
Funny, I’ve played round with the Hager AFDDs and can’t make it trip either! However, we have an on going issue on a job where they were used and it’s tripping out intermittently! This is concerning!
Great video Dave, can't wait to see Hager's response on this - no doubt they'll suggest that you have a faulty device.
I have 84k followers on tik Tok I am trying to test out Arc fault breaker. I can't them to trip. Do you have a video on your arc chamber construction?
You won't trip them by rubbing wires together, but increasing the contact size by using something like 15mm brass plumbing stop-ends seems to generally work. Aside from that, the Lego is just a mechanical means of moving one contact to the other without getting your fingers too close. All I have on the construction is in this video: ruclips.net/video/e0ElFaKc_e8/видео.htmlsi=pVB7jq05J7gQ9BwS&t=976
@@dsesuk thanks I have been trying to just make a slight connections. The bouncing and rubbing for big sparks is just cuz tik Tok algorithm needs the first 5 seconds to be catchy
Another cracking upload with plenty of technical chiz to entertain and educate.
Given arc fault detection is using digital signal processing, it would be unlikely implementing a central multi-channel system with a single processor would be more cost effective as they would potentially need multiple processing cores or a CPU fast enough to handle 16+ circuits simultaneously. This might change at the point they designed a custom multi-channel ASIC and achieve sufficient volume. It is very short sighted for them to assume an installer will individually configure all of these, though in future this could be centralized if all units are linked via Bluetooth mesh or otherwise connect to a central device via Bluetooth or a wired interface. This could possibly already be done with current hardware and may be in their future firmware plans. I suspect they will do this in future.
Thanks for the Hager update...will give them a miss for now. Brilliant video as usual :)
Thanks as ever old sport!
It would be interesting if you contact hager with this video and get their perspective
Love to see inside that test box at the show, probably just a posh signal injector, smoke and mirrors springs to mind.
That's what I was thinking. The button box is just that probably - I reckon the clever stuff is inside that CU. I'd like five minutes alone with it and a screwdriver!
I heard there's a little bloke inside that manually pulls a lever when he thinks he hears arcing
@@ChickenWizy It's all done with imps.
Did you ever experience any false tripping due to arc faults since your consumer unit upgrade? I've heard some people from the US complain that theirs tripped whenever they used their vacuum cleaner.
I've had two AFDD trips on two different modules since putting them in at the end of 2020. In each case, I couldn't account for the fault and it didn't repeat when the device was reset.
Just a quick question . I am lead to believe that in order for the AFDD to work you have to ramp up the load current to quite a high level of arching for it to trip but if there was a small amount of arching going on somewhere on a circuit a fire could still ignite . Especially where next to something inflammable ie an old oily rag lying about in a loft space next to a junction box or whatever So whats the point of the device at all.
I was always surprised that 18th Edition recommended AFDDs for circuits of 32A or lower when it's shower isolators I see the most arc damage on at 32A or higher. In my prior videos, I couldn't force an AFDD trip on a load of less than about a kiloWatt. Arcing can happen on something like a LED lighting circuit, but the energy levels are generally too low for a series fault which is the most common arc type. A parallel fault would need the kind of damage and external influences I applied to my cable here. That said, any kind of arc - even a small one - near flammable materials or in a flammable atmosphere could result in a lot of bother.
I fitted 10 of these into a large consumer unit. Couldn’t even manage to get through the Hager registration on the app ☹️
Has Hager responded yet ? Just checked in.
Wooooo, snap, crackle, pop
Great Video
Be interested to know what tests, standards they have to pass to be called afdd.
There were more sparks and arcs than a sparkler on bonfire night
Hmm, connecting AFDD's to an internet device (your phone), what could go wrong? 🙄 I'm sure some marketing muppet thought this was a good idea and didn't think it through.
Never did trust "smart" stuff. I don't need my fridge ordering groceries for me or my lights going on and off like a disco. And don't get me started on so-called "smart" phones... My Nokia 6310i has done me for the past 20 years, it makes phone calls and sends the occasional SMS, which is all I need a phone for.
@@TestGearJunkie.kind of handy though if you get a log of AFDD trips that show they happen are a certain time of the day though? This stuff has value.
Can you test a Schneider AFDD?
This is worrying. I need to install some afdd's and won't be trusting Hager after this.
The only thing I can think of is that it may self calibrate to the circuits characteristics. That wouldn't be wise for socket circuits though.
There's another range of afdds with a arm code. I don't know if they will be any better and it doesn't excuse this product.
The Bluetooth and phone setup seen on the Elex video made me 99% certain I'd never touch one of these and this video has now added the final 1%. To be honest if I'd not seen the Elex vid then this would have done it for me. Sometimes these companies try to be more clever than they actually need to be. What a pile of Hager crap.
It's was a turn off for me too Andy. My phone has no business talking to my flippin' CU!
If Hager reply you need to do a follow up to let us know what they have to say!
I wonder how the American versions compare and do they incorporate high tech.
The US AFCI's have been mandated since 1999, so whatever's in 'em, it ain't a tiny computer!
Here is why electrium have rushed to develop miniature afdds. Social housing. Thats it. Crabtree and wylex are massive in social housing spec. And social housing are fitting afdds like crazy following grenfell. A town near me has fitted new consumer units, spds and afdds on every circuit in every flat in their high rise stock.
All true, but they also have developed AFDDs that work...
Common problem with trade shows of all industries; staffed of salespeople and the technical staff aren't allowed out of the R&D office. 7 years at a company and I met the customer twice, right at the end when I was trusted.
I definitely find this kind of cack interesting David lol. What a load absolute shite that is, no excuse such as “not proper lab conditions” will be suffice here, end of the the day if that arcing was within an installation that device should seeing that signature, Hager didn’t account for the old Davo Savo critique to start arcing out their devices for the world to see. Seriously tho after seeing this how could anyone have an ounce of confidence installing their AFDD’s.
Great video and great work David ✌️
Great video. Let me know if you ever want to test ours 👍🏽
Great video, it’s good to see new products like this reviewed by an installer with real world experience - Bluetooth doesn’t always make things better!
Blimmin generous of you as always Mark!
Yep, very interesting video. I'd suggest you keep Mark's generous donation to go towards a legal fund you're probably going to need once Hager's lawyers mobilize in your direction. Hope I'm wrong, genuine unsponsored, unfiltered product reviews are too few and far between.
@@andrewd762 I don't think there's anything illegal here. It's just my opinion and my attempts to force the thing to operate in a way where I believe it ought to. I never said the product was crap or that it doesn't work, merely that I can't get it to work, unlike my Siemens/Wylex models, which forces me to question its efficacy. There's no means for installers to properly test such devices; we're totally reliant on the manufacturer telling us they've made it right and it's clever enough to keep tabs on its own sanity. I'm happy for Hager to tell me why they think I've been unsuccessful, but there's nothing here that can win them a takedown of this content.
@dsesuk They've been legislated as required in the US for several years now so most of the testers are US market based. Klein Tools do a combination GFCI / AFCI tester but I'm not sure if it's available as a 230v 50hz version. also Fox Meter Inc developed a portable tester which I think is now badged as a Greenlee, again I'm not sure if it's UK compliant. Both of these testers were fairly cheap.
@@andrewd762 Thing is with the US AFCIs, they're not processor based from what I've seen. They're $30 dollar devices the US have been fitted for years, so perhaps work in a different way to the ARM hardware turning up over here. It is possible to make a signal injector that will show an AFDD in action - that's probably exactly what Hager have on their stand, but an MFT manufacturer told me IEC 62606 demands "the Test type requires 'real' arc not waveform simulated by electronic devices" and that the energy dissipated would be more than an MFT can cope with: "Example: 230V x 63A x 0.12s = 1738 Joule ( our loop tester works currently with a max energy : 460V x 10A x 0.01s = 46 Joule )"
Great content Dave,can you get some other makes and give them a good seeing too?!maybe a fuse box or contactum
A Fusebox model may be put through its paces soon, so watch this space.
Plus what if there is no or at best a poor data connection anywhere near the property or worse comes to worse the firmware update fails, who pays for the replacement?
OH BTW is there a cast iron guaranteed number of years they are supporting these devices or is the end user going to recieve a letter in 5 or 6 years saying all that expensive hardware is no longer going to work after a certain date?
What happens when something like the Bluetooth protocol moves on? Who expects their iPhone fifteen years from now to have a Bluetooth protocol that's compatible with what these use if Hager can't, or won't, update them? It's a can of worms.
@@dsesuk or if the app will still be available, after all why would they pump money into software if the hardware isn’t selling in high volumes.
Not a single AFDD is being fitted by me unless in one of 4 mandated categories. I don’t want a wifi breaker, just want it to work for 30-50 years.
Hi Dave, great Video. I have never been a fan of hager but Wow, and i thought the Hager RCD's not tripping in time when tested was bad. That AFDD isnt fit for purpose. What a piece of Garbage.
Well that RCD 5x thing was a whole other debacle of course. Why Hager ever thought they could release a product to market that many MFTs couldn't test to the version of BS7671 out at the time was full on nuts. To think BS7671 had to change to sort out that mess is madness!
The regs shouldn't change to suit the product, the product should fit the regs.
Utter madness
If Hager really wants to smartify their range while also considering the installer's time and patience, they should replace the data-harvesting excuse of a bluetooth app with a low-power mesh network similar to cheap Hue/Zigbee bulbs. Firmware and other "learned information" could then be updated as a cascading deployment after being triggered once. A simple management device made for installers could start the propagation, download fault logs, etc.
Given amendment 2 by and large wants AFDD's in commercial developments, where hundreds could be installed, not considering deployment at scale is such an unforced error. They're leaving money on the table too as we'd stick with one brand if we knew installing a brand new Hager AFDD in the CU could quietly update all the older AFDD's in the building to the latest firmware (just like bulbs do).
Good video David. I find it personally enthusiastic the way Hager markets this device. It's challenging enough trying to keep software up to date with smart home gadgets and hardware, but on safety devices is a bit too much. I get it for the likes of ACB's that need remote switching and monitoring for higher currents in commercial & industrial environments, but in a domestic setting, 40A and below realistically, it's overkill and not needed. Especially when the home owners 9 times out of 10 never test their RCD every 6 months!!!
Great video as always old chap, ive got an AFDD sat on my rack, ill stick it in the post to you soon, another brand to try.
Good to test a third brand in the same way - does it behave like the Siemens or like the Hager? The former proves how I perceive these things to work, the latter perhaps shows there's something missing from my tests.
I bet they will come up with some sort of argument about the device not being left for long enough before an arc being induced. It's still an incredibly worrying perspective if so, as that would potentially mean that an existing arc on a board change may be ignored. As for it being the correct signature, there are plenty of guys tapping wires together to create an arc, but the devices would only potentially see this as switching arc, but for your devices, they are sustained for definite. Really glad I saw this before installing a board in an HMO. I would love to see some sort of response from Hager to support their product, but I feel it will be weak at best!
I'm sure they'll figure my testing wasn't real life. Although, had that loose connection been on the back of a socket outlet with a heater or granny charger plugged in, I would suspect it would be melting before this thing reacts.
@@dsesuk Exactly. I just feel like they will say some tosh along the lines of "but it needs to be initialised", leaving an already problematic circuit with an arc either forever, or until it has finished initialising or whatever. I'm here on edge waiting on some form or response though. Surely.
Thanks very interesting, love a good arc fault in the morning
That just fucking great
I’ve seen this video after just installing 6 of these afdd in my consumer unit
MK has their Logic Plus range, so the tech to have a single management unit is there, their point that its nearly cheaper to put it all in one unit is fairly true as it will be the same ESP type module to do the comms, but the better solution would be to have say a din rail controller, with separate buttons to pair a new module and a button to allow "quick access" for an installer without the need for all registration which times out after say 15 mins, but the controller could also connect to WiFi and handle any firmware updates or remote monitoring if that is needed
Unless its a BMS based system, home stuff should not require registration to single installers etc.
It seems to be a designed by a Product team without real world users or forsight to how it will actually be used, normally happens when the people setting such decisions have not been at the sharp end.
A properly designed smart consumer unit range would not need devices to be paired. Just the L + N busbar contacts and a small data connector (probably carrying SPI). The devices would be addressed by physical position and identify themselves to the master CPU. So no configuration required on adding or changing a device, just simple plug and play. But I expect the manufacturers would take 2 or 3 generations of unusable abortions to get to this arrangement though.
Looks like I need to update my AFDDs since I did my video. You're a version ahead!
Do you have the Hager ones Steve? Have you ever tried them out in anger?
@@dsesuk I have a few of these in the garage, but didn't have any arc trip events with those. Actually the older type (2 units wide, AFDD and MCB only) do work, as I did have a single oven melt the 13A fuse/plug that was pre-fitted, so perhaps they've gone backwards with the new design.
@@sdgelectronics Yeah, I recall Hager were two-mod units with no earth leakage protection back when I was installing my Wylex all-in-ones back in 2020. I wonder if they've got too clever with these?
Excellent. Have u got any discount codes for this before I snap some of these up
BUNDYSUCKSCOCK10
@@dsesuk Ye gods you get worse, if that's possible 🤣
Interesting Test, Bit Sceptical about a device that can have firmware updated could it get corrupted in normal use.
No reason for that to happen if it's been designed at least half-competently
@@mikeselectricstuff I'm always very apprehensive whenever I have to do a firmware update, I'm convinced the device whatever it is will turn into a very expensive brick. It's not happened so far, but it's sure to one day 😵💫
Corruption? Yes, that will be it. There's probably some small print saying it mustn't be installed on circuits that could be subjected to arcing spikes!