The early LED lights were expensive, but fairly reliable. As time has gone on they have literally engineered the running of the LEDs to the edge of failure so they can guarantee future sales. Sounds like a conspiracy, but unfortunately it's real. And the ones you can't change the bulb/lamp in are just unscrupulous landfill. Especially the ones that go into disco mode when they fail. It's literally forcing low income people to do electrical work they may not be able to do safely. If only there was a government type of thing to regulate this stuff....
I totally agree David with the conclusions. Integrated LED strip lights are an absolute abomination in increasing landfill. Well done for shining a light on this issue. 😊
@@dsesuk I had this after slagging a product range, and some jedward quiffed 20 something in an office "blocked" me. Found the CEO on Linkedin and asked if this was normal practise. It wasn't. I was unblocked. The 20 something had a mysterious change of job.
I can't believe a manufacturer blocked you because you gave negative feedback. How childish and unprofessional is that. How will they ever learn that they have issues, if nobody tells them ? But then again, maybe they dont want to know. It certainly sais a lot more about them than it does you. Keep up the good work, Dave.
There are 3 fluorescent tubes in my dad's garage that have been untouched since he installed them back in 1984-5. The starters have been changed on occasion but they are all still going strong.
And they'll still be going long after all this cheap Chinese crap has failed. I remember fitting some T12 5ft fluorescents in my mum's garage in the mid 70's, they were still going when she died in 2020, only starters and the occasional tube replaced. LED..? No thanks.
The driver has a voltage that high to support the number of LEDs in series. LEDs have a varying forward voltage but brightness is dependent on current, so to get an even light output they all need to be driven at the same current. The simplest way to do this is to put them all in one series string, othewise you need multiple strings running at the same current. For a sealed light where high voltage is available this is the most simple approach. For lower voltage led strips there are multiple series strings (3 leds for 12v) each with a CC driver chip or a resistor within the strip. This is less efficient and more costly than whacking 50 leds in a series strip and running one driver.
Yeah, but also lower current also means cheaper components, thinner wire and thinner PCB tracks to keeps losses low I think. You see all sorts of configurations in LED tubes. The 24W LED tubes lighting me from above now have about 90V driver but the LEDs are grouped as sets of 4 LEDs in parallel, with 30 sets in series. I'm not sure which tail wags the dog, but it will be all down to cost one can be sure. I have had 2 out of 6 fail in 2yrs. Crap components crammed into too small a space and high temperature ageing kills them. Then they are e-waste. You just can't rework them because there is no space for a decent driver, unless you make a bespoke incompatible luminaire. They are only about £10 each but it's the waste aspect that stinks.
Ive dealt with the retail side for theatre lighting which includes many led manufacturers from Philips, osram, ledvance, ge and sorra. All of them have their own issues Ive had traditional halogen lamps last a lot longer which is alarming as many only have 500 hours guarantee due to their design.
I had nine dimmable integrated LED spotlights in my kitchen, one year later two of them had failed and the manufacturer had stopped making them. Ended up spending another £80 or so replacing the set while needlessly generating waste. I use GU10 LED bulbs now so at least the set is a bit cheaper to replace if needed. Easier too
Good work repairing the fitting! I acquired a job lot of similar fittings about a year ago in a similarly failed state. They had 1000mA constant current drivers in them which were all dead. I simply replaced them with some 700mA drivers that I already had. 1 year or so later all are still working, albeit irregular use in the man cave! They were 40w fittings, now run at 20-something watts, still plenty bright enough and hopefully running cooler means they should last a long time
I've retro-fitted all my flourescent fittings with Energizer LED tube replacements. No need for any rewiring, they come with a 'starter' replacement which bypasses the ballast, and the tubes can be fitted either way round in the fitting, and easily changed in the future without swapping the fitting itself.
The tubes normally have a fused resistor across the second end that pops if put across the mains, seen a couple of tubes with skid-marks on one end but still work! The constant current means if you short out a blown diode on the strip it will reduce the voltage so you will lose brightness but won't over power the remaining leds...
the failure rate for LED fittings IS quiet high and only purchasing the trusted brands from wholesalers who will replace failures is the way to put the cheap shite out of the food chain , the problem is dafty homeowner likes cheap he will happily pay a nifty for a pot of paint but thinks twenty notes for a light is way too dear
Had this convo the other day, we do lots of works in schools where mostly was fluorescent where if the odd tube would go, the caretaker could happily replace it and be up and running, now if they have an integrated led fitting like they all are, they have to call an electrician out every time if it fails
Yeah, I saw this all coming with LED lighting. There's a 2019 new build school near me and the old build had fluorescent lighting throughout which the site managers / caretakers could re-lamp. This included the emergency lighting as well as they were all 8w fluorescent. The new build is all LED and already they have had multiple LED failures which has already cost thousands. The failures weren't just a one off either. It includes loads of those mini downlight emergency lights, wall bulkheads and some outdoor lighting.
I fitted out a load of existing battens with the glass LED tube replacements, I just rewired each batten so the live mad neutral went to one end an didn’t bother with the bypass starter. The tubes were extremely fragile and a number were broken on purchase, however Denmans changed them all which was good.
One of the common failure modes on the LED part of the LED fittings is down to the individual sections being a handful of LEDs in parallel, and those sections then being in series. If one out of the (for the sake of argument) 8 LEDs in parallel fails, that means each of the remain LEDs is getting 1/8th more current than they should. That increases their temperature, so shortens the life of them so you end up with a cascade failure. Once all the LEDs in a section have died, because the sections are in series with each other that means the entire fitting stops working. If you're reasonably handy with a soldering iron it's not difficult to bypass a section and get the fitting up and running again, I made a (dull) video on the subject. That's assuming it's an LED issue rather than a driver issue. The battens seem to have the LEDs die and the floods seem to have the drivers die, not really sure why.
I guess I count myself lucky with all the integrated luminaires I installed in the communal places of our apartment building. Partly pre-Signify Philips in 2015 and partly Noxion in 2016. The former went in 'as is', were promised to last 15,000 hours, but are all functioning properly 8 years later in an application in which they are on 5,000-5,500 hours per year. The latter were promised to last 35,000 hours, but I modified the drivers to lower light output (they were too bright) halving the power consumption and probably tripling (or more) the lifespan. They also are still all operational. Having said that, my bad experiences are mostly, if not all, with retrofit LED bulbs that seem to really be designed to fail. Constant current drivers are preferably used to adapt to changing characteristics that occur when LEDs age and they negate the need for current limiting resistors. Another advantage is that if one LED fails short, the driver will adapt and keep driving the remaining LEDs at the same current.
Constant voltage is convenient for LED strip, since it is parallel wired and can be easily cut to length. However, it is less efficient, since there needs to be a resistor in each section of LED to drop the voltage. This wastes energy. Constant current has the LEDs wired in series. This is more efficient and is how all integrated LED fittings are driven
We use the NVC Phoenix range of LED battens when rewiring our substations and so far have been performing fantastic. For floodlights we’ve been using Brackenheath but they can be hit and miss.
I have had issues with Ansell floodlights where they failed within 2 years so I contacted them and they insisted the lights had a surge or a spike damage. So 5 year warranty not applicable. I got round it by replacing them for the cost of replacement part only with no labour charge as a sign of goodwill.
If I have ever seen a subject that you guys could collaborate with bigclive this has to be it. Also I didn't realise that some of the LED tubes have both a plastic and glass tube - why? I've just moved into a fairly new house where the garage has flourescent battens so will be modding them for LED use as the tubes fail - so your next project will be of great use - thankyou guys
Same here, had dealings with LAP and Eterna non good, my go too for LED battens are either Ansell or Knightsbridge, Both offer 5 year garantee and upto now iv fitted loads with only 1 failure about 2 years after and was swapped no questions asked.
We had 97 to fit where I work. All the same batch number. After fitting 12 which failed after 24hours we had to send the lot back to the supplier. Crap.
+David Savery Electrical Services Have you used or seen Tridonic driver installations? My experience with Tridonic ECO drivers (both LED and Fluorescent) with separate constant-current LED modules has been excellent!. I like setting up SwitchDIM controls, too. They seem exceptionally well made and reliable, if I'm not mistaken.
I used to replace 40W candle lamps in our wall lights on a regular basis, every couple of months. Replaced them with CFL's and although not changed, very slow to light, to a horrid colour. Replaced them with TCP LED lamps and I wrote the installation date on them, just checked and they have been in since 31/12/2013. 8 lamps saving 35 watts for about 3500 days, so almost 1 MW saved and no lamps changed. Those old ones were totally better.
Generally the integrated LED fittings are more reliable than replaceable lamp style fittings, because they have more space for the components. The GU10 style lamps have the LED and driver squashed into a very small space, making heat dissipation an issue. However, it now seems that manufacturers are squeezing out fixtures for the absolute lowest cost. Sadly of course, it is not in manufacturers interest to make a super long lasting fitting. They just need it to last past the warranty period. Then they can sell you another fixture!
This was my thought. 2014 - a community hall extension, 16 integrated downlights with a separate large driver block in the cool air space above the ceiling. Surely much more reliable than the same circuit crammed into a GU10 base immediately above the heated LED elements.Very low usage, most of it with the dimmers below 100%. 4 units failed in the first 4 years. Less life than the tungsten GU10s in the porch. Replaceable lamps for me every time now.
I must have been lucky as the 8 LED batten lamps I put in my garage which I bought cheap on-line are still going strong after about 6 years. The outside lamps I put in are also LEDs, but those are Edison screw bulbs in waterproof bulkhead lights (TLC I think), so I can swap the bulbs out if they failed, but so far fine (as are the two IR sensors I installed for them). In the kitchen, I use GU10s as they are replaceable, rather than integrated LEDs. Where practical I will continue to use light fittings with replaceable LED bulbs (or whatever we should call them). nb. it is possible to do your own LED lighting using self-adhesive LED strips in aluminium extrusions and diffusers with low voltage wiring and using 12 or 24V drivers. Those are fixable the the sense that you can replace the LED strips or drivers, but some soldering required. Also, the light output of those cheap LED strips are rather variable, especially cheap on-line ones. The LED strips are also not the most power efficient as they are groups of 3 (for 12V) or 6 (for 12V) with a dropper resistor in each set, and you cut them along lines. The design is inherently robust in that a failure only takes out one group of 3 or 6 LEDs. The resistor wastes a bit of energy as heat. To be truly efficient you need a design with LEDs in series, a higher voltage and a constant current driver. Those are more vulnerable though, as if there are, say, 32 LEDs in series, just one failing will prevent the others working.
We've been having Great Fun™ at work with LED floodlamps replacing some great big daft gas discharge lamps, and my boss was buying Mystery Magic Brand™ 30W floodlamps that were searingly bright compared to the 250W discharge lamps they replaced, for less power! Great stuff! ...yyyyyeah, they lasted anywhere between 1 to 6 months, before big patches of the LEDs would go out, or they'd go out in a very exciting puff of smoke and a skidmark. And each time, we're throwing nearly a kilo of aluminium, plastic, LED, and components into the skip. Meanwhile, I'm still grabbing bulbs out of the discharge lamps that we stashed in the back of the shed, to replace burned out ones in the fixtures we still have up. Since then, the boss has been buying slightly nicer branded floodlamps and they seem to be surviving a little longer, but it still remains to be seen how long they'll actually last. It's a shame that the market is flooded with so much cheap skip-ballast crap, that's been hewn out of the earth, processed into An Product at some expense (monetary, and environmental), only for it to be such shite that it lasts a month and then ends up lobbed into the bin.
What a JUVENILE thing for Luceco to do... We do the replaceable lamp route too, battens without control gear, and for downlights, GU10 etc. Had too many customers (not ours) with dead LED downlights of a kind you can no longer get, so 2 dead lamps means replacing every fitting in a kitchen, Ridiccoolus
24:36 that’s how you have to wire them in Switzerland when you convert them (they have a rule of course). Makes sense though as anyone replacing the LED tube in future doesn’t need to worry about which way around to put it.
Regarding CC driver with high voltage, the main thing is efficiency, for two reasons. Reason 1: Power dissipation is greater at high currents from the equation P = I^2 * R. For a given number of LEDs, they will have a given electrical power demand. Taking P = I * V this time, decreasing voltage increases current, which increases dissipation but to the second order (the I^2 from the first equation there) in any wiring, PCB traces, and components (semiconductors, inductors, capacitors, etc.). Reason 2: Conversion ratio of the driver. A driver converting between 240V and 12V just will be less efficient than an equivalent quality driver (i.e. not one using cheap components from 20 years ago) converting to 175V or whatever the number quoted in the video was. Essentially, for efficiency, wherever possible you want to run the highest voltage (below that of the supply, be that mains, a 9V battery etc.) at the lowest current. This is sometimes deviated from for practical reasons - one may want parallel arrays of LEDs so that a single failure doesn't wipe out the light completely as it would in a purely series approach. EDIT: This rule holds true for domestic wiring between the UK and US for example - electrical loads are rated on amps, right? Whereas we in the UK can get away with far higher power devices on the same rated wiring.
I wholeheartedly agree with you on the ban of fluorescent - and even incandescent - lighting. It's misguided and much to soon. Before such standardized technologies were phased out we should at the very least have had a consensus design for modular LED fixtures. Standard replaceable LED drivers like the old fluorescent starters and standard replaceable strips and bulbs.
I've had a Brackenheath LED floodlight on my house for about 7 years now still going strong 💪 they're not cheap but this one was "leftover" from a job so cant complain 😉🤣
That was very dangerous taking a photo of Nigel at meal times . Maybe you guys should reach out to companies with fluorescents and offer your conversion to led while keeping hardware. Seems brilliant.
Sorry to hear that Ledvance have gone down the pan: my older onces are, I think, from the Osram era and still working. However, I have suffered poor reliability of Meridian batten LEDs and each time I got an FOC replacement which, so far, have been OK. I agree: thermal management is the likely cause of unreliability, particularly when the LED strip looses adhesion to the carcass so all heat sinking is lost. As ever an informative video: thanks!
My mother has a fluorescent fitting in her kitchen since the 70s, tubes been replaced over the years and still going strong although it's buzzing in use which doesn't bother her as she's half deaf! point being the make is Crompton and will probably last another 50 years!
That's hardly surprising considering that there's nothing in it to fail apart from a choke that's buzzing and possibly a capacitor which you wouldn't notice if it did fail. I have one in my garage that was fitted in 1959 which also buzzes and is rusting badly but still works fine.
I am old enough to recall the 1980s when, at the shows, we were told that once they get LED lighting sorted, they will last so long that you will build them into the house like a brick, because they will NEVER go wrong - yeah right.
And manufacturers just repeating the 50,000 hr life quoted for the LEDs (when correctly driven and cooled) , and driving them with poor and over-rated components that fail as fast as a tungsten bulb!
I agree with your stance David on the LED crapola out there. I have been using Ledison manufactured by Volticon for the past 3 years which are retrofit single ended LED straight to mains tubes. They also do an emergency module if you want to convert a standard existing fitting to emergency which is great. Yet to have one fail on me having installed 100s. They also do the pl compact fluorescent Led straight to mains. Unless a fitting is damaged, why the hell go to all the agro of ripping it out, especially if its recessed or fead through conduits etc.
Nice video I do share your woes, Unfortunately we have the same replaceable batten leds in a workshop and we are forever changing them , poor design with the electronics in the end cap that can not dissipate the heat, I replaced the mains controller capacitors and series inductor, to ones of higher qualities (longer hour caps 12,000 hr at specified ripple current) I then designed a brand new controller for the Light that was small enough to mount in the light fitting. Yes definitely a bit of over kill but was just to proof the concept it was more efficient and is using a dedicated controller.
Agreed that integrated light source LED battens are landfillums. I have double 18W 2G11 bulbs in daily use from 2018 and as long as the LED's wont outlive it I wont switch as long as I have spare tubes._
This luceco 6 foot led replacement tube definitely read 10 ohms across the dead end then sizzled and smoked when I stuffed 10 amps through it with the bench power supply. Fusible resistor perhaps? I did the same thing, nicked it out the recycling. Forgot about it until I saw this video.
Hey guys, see if you can get your hands on some DAVIS lighting or SAL gear. They’re two very common brands in Aus and I’ve installed hundreds of each with very few problems (SAL has personally had slightly more failures than DAVIS). Not sure if they’re complaint with British Standards but great LED options in my opinion.
HAH yes, the single resistor... failure... our livingroom tv is a 'kerbside rescue'. the PSU wasn't powering up, it was the bootstrap resistor to let it get itself out of standby.
Why high voltage output for the constant current driver? Sounds like that is about 50W. I guess the lower the voltage then the higher the current needs to be which means more cost in thicker wiring, thicker PCB tracks and higher heat dissipation and losses to worry about.
I'm concerned about the quailty of most electrical components, from the UK and the far east. How can you make a RCBO for less than £15, it may catch fire, solution house it in a metal fusebox. Its for one of the big lighting manufacturers to design floods and strips with removable led modules, something you can return to the wholesalers and pick up a fresh module and slot it in to the fitting. If they did that I would then stick to the brand, any fault would be a quick swap over.
Good call on wiring the lampholders in series, prevents bangs when customers/maintenance people put the toob in backwards. Also a lot of those tubes actually have a fuse linking the 'do not power' end CC driver is probably to provide even output across the length of the tube, constant voltage tends to be lower voltage and could suffer volt drop down the length
The forward voltage of around 3V varies between LEDs and with temperature, constant current is best for driving LEDs as it keeps the correct current and consistent brightness. Constant voltage is less efficient as it needs series resistors on the LED PCB to limit current. The 12V LED tape has sections of 3 series LEDs and a resistor across the 12V rails, repeated along the length.
@@cunning-stunt With long parallel strings when you are limited to 12V and fed from one end, it is the same problem with either CV or CC, drawing 3A or more current and the brightness dropping along the length. With a constant 12V supply and series resistors, around a quarter of the power in a 5m strip is wasted by the resistors. This is seen as OK for convenience and being cheap to produce, but it is no good for room lighting.
@@dino6627 Yet all Led strip is produced to run on constant voltage. You can also buy voltage amplifiers for install at every 5m. If the LEDs in a strip were series connected the copper tracks and LEDs themselves act like resistors and the size of the tracks on a 5m strip would need to be considerably larger in size. You are worrying about fractions of milli amps and creating a problem where there is not one. All LED strip these days is 24V not 12V and I have never had an issue with dim LEDs due to volt drop on a 5m run of strip..
You can buy R7 LED double end cob lamps which retrofit into conventional halogen floodlights. So just fit a conventional halogen pir fitting with the LED R7 lamp installed. Worst case, if the lamp fails, the customer just fits another led R7 rather than calling you back to fit a new floodlight. The led R7's are cheap enough to even leave a spare lamp with the customer which combined with the original lamp will probably see out your warranty period.
Regarding ip rating. I bought an ansell tornado 6ft led fitting for my garden under a pergola (so out of direct weather). Supposedly ip65. It has 6 metal clamps on each side to clamp the shade on. However, the plastic base and shade are so flimsy there's actually gaps between the two with all the clamps fastened shut. I wouldn't trust them exposed to the elements at all. I was surprised to see them installed out in the open at a local theme park. I was even more surprised to see them fitted in abundance at my am2 test centre! 😂 I would love to see somebody get hold of a thorlux light (£££) and see what's so special about them and why they cost so much.
I have DIY LED lights in my apartment. AC-DC PSUs are running somewhat warm to the touch, the last few volts get dropped via Linear Regulators. Had a single issue with a cold solder joint in a switchmode PSU. And if something ever breaks, I built it, I can repair it.
I like the idea behind LED lighting, but the practice makes it a load of crap. Given my line of work, I'm using a lot of theatre and effect lights; not all that long ago, if a lamp went phutt, you replaced it and ensured you had a ton of spares for when the next one inevitably went phutt... Now, when a lamp dies; you have to replace the whole fixture; some of which are hundreds, if not thousands of quid a pop... And where does the old fixture go...? In the bin, as in the case of a lot of light fixtures, even the good ones aren't worth a wank...
As you say LED lighting can be a problem. I have had several Meridian LED replacements for fluorescent fittings in my garage which have failed. They inevitably failed when some of the LED packed up. I have repaired them by bridging the failed LED with 3v LED strips off eBay. Unfortunately I accept that this isn't a commercial solution but It is difficult to find an LED strip light replacement that is as reliable as the suppliers suggest.
I don't know if you ever fitted the JCC downlights a few years back. I went back countless times to different jobs where they had failed after a few days/weeks /months. Absolute shite. Stopped buying them. Many other contractors i know also had the same issues. I now use KSR. no failures so far apart from over heating issue due to dense loft insulation on one job that was my fault.
Most failures probably fall in to a couple of camps... overheating of the LED's causing them to fail... usually as a result of being driven way to hard which generates more heat. The other mostly are the capacitors - many failures are the ones that bootstrap the chip that generates the voltage to actually drive the fiting. Symptoms include things like flickering until things warm up or they fully take a dump and don't work at all. FInally the LED's themselves, although these are generally reliable so you'll have usually had to do something really horrible to them to make them take a dump as well
You guys should do a vid with big Clive !!! Buy a bunch of les floods from the wholesaler and get big Clive to break it down … what’s good what’s not!!! Would be awesome…
The problem is that LED manufacturers have been quoting 50000 hours life time. The issue is that this is over 5 years and the consumer rights act basically says things should last for reasonable period of time and if they state 50k hours then that sets the definition for reasonable period of time. The problem with is that you have to take them to court to get it settled and it’s not worth the effort so the manufacturers get away with it.
Have you got any experience with Thorlux fixtures at all? Quite a few of their models have replaceable parts and modules, not to mention retrofit replacement modules for the old discharge lamp fixtures they used to make and sell. We've got plenty of their 2D and 6ft fluorescent fittings still going strong.
Replaced kitchen fluorescent light with 6no 4w Megaman 246211 13years ago still going strong (still listed for sale on Amazon) I wonder if they are of same quality now, I agree with non replaceable led lighting manufacturers driving the chips too hard hence shortening there life modifications can be made to make them last longer (bigclive) .
Constant current power supply has some merit, if an individual LED in a series string goes short it does not over-run the remaining ones. A constant voltage supply suits a "tube" that has integral current limiting. I share you disgust at many modern light fittings and the lamps, had halogen lamps that have not lasted a day, flourescent tubes that have failed in a month. It is not the technology at fault, it is cheap manufacturing and lack of quality control. About the lamps were compact flourescent, lights, some of them used conventional chokes nd nearly pulled the drop cord out of the ceiling rose
On a personal note I've changed a 40watt led flood at the same property 3 times with the last 18 months, it's frankly embarrassing now, the guys very understanding but I'm running out of manufacturers to try.
With regard to security style lighting, I will only fit Steinel lights, they might help you maintain your 2 year guarantee to your customers. They’re much more expensive but built to a proper standard.
Had several failures from both decent and cheap brands. Crap capacitors, poor soldering (goddamn lead free), driver IC’s self destructing. No airflow around the driver board. Also the LEDs themselves go o/c and kill part if or the whole thing. Must give a mention to some older Asda branded GU10s though, when I did the basement I used lots of GU10s as got the fittings cheap but the bulbs were chewing up the electricity even when it was cheap. Threw the Adsa LED ones in and they have been superb!
I used to use robus. They weren't cheap but didn't go wrong . Then we had a install of emergency lights. 109 lights installed and after 6 months 95 of them failed the battery test . Robus didn't want to know. No customer support . Nowt . I now install Bell lighting. They actually do onside support. And will Sent someone out to change a light if it does go faulty.
The rush to replace 70lm/W fluorescents with 90lm/W LEDs of dubious reliability is an absolute waste. Nowhere near as much benefit as the replacement of incandescents. And the demand for cheap fittings to do so just pollutes the market with junk so we can't get good ones for new installs. And if the manufacturers weren't so set on selling you another one as soon as possible, we could have reliable fittings which are significantly more efficient, but they need their revolving door of revenue for the shareholders - stuff the customer. Just had to source and replace the driver in a 65W LED fitting (which replaced a
How about linking up with Big Clive to do a video to analyse the faults with these failed LED battens. He did one where the fault was the driver, not the LED strip, which he repaired.
You drive the LED string with a constant current so the current through the string is self limiting. If you drive an LED with a constant voltage the current will be unlimited and burn out the LED. (You will need a limiting resistor if you want to drive an LED or LED string with a constant voltage). There will be a limiting resistor on the LED strip segments that are designed to be driven from a constant voltage supply.
If an LED shorts (more likely?) a constant current will result in the same volt drop across the remaining individual LEDs adn the same current through them . Ohms law..1mA through a 1k resistor = 1v, 1 mA through 2 x 1K resistors in series = 2v, but still only 1v across each resistor, short out one of the resistors and the same 1mA current will still leave 1v across the only remaining resistor. Constant voltage on the other hand will see the voltage and the current across the one remaining resistor double and stress it out leading to greater chance of future failure Where as if you have a device that is more likely to open circuit you would have multiple devices in parallel with each having a current limiting resistor for load balancing because none of the LEDs will have the exact same volt drop across them. From memory LEDs are a current devices, so a constant current through them will result in them being closer to intensity to each other than constant voltage, you also only need 1 resistor to set the current limit for a series LED driver resulting in a lower component count. The LED strips that were used are in parallel and have that limiting resistor. I am presuming that the higher voltage output constant current module has a higher over all efficiency too In larger flat panel LED lights we have it is a combination of parallel and series, so we may have 12 LEDs in series and 12 strings in parallel, so any fault will not take out the whole panel be it a short or open circuit. Just my 2 cents on the matter...
Hate to say it but the basic LAP LED batten in my kitchen has been fantastic. So good I've got 2 in the garage and one on a flex and plug top I use as flood lighting. Brilliant, doddle to fit and they can daisy chain. I'm not a spark dealing with this stuff day in day out mind, but for a consumer who understands his skill and capability level these have been great for me. Hopefully I've been lucky and will still have a working kitchen light in the morning 😂
The early LED lights were expensive, but fairly reliable. As time has gone on they have literally engineered the running of the LEDs to the edge of failure so they can guarantee future sales. Sounds like a conspiracy, but unfortunately it's real. And the ones you can't change the bulb/lamp in are just unscrupulous landfill. Especially the ones that go into disco mode when they fail. It's literally forcing low income people to do electrical work they may not be able to do safely.
If only there was a government type of thing to regulate this stuff....
Leds are terrible
I totally agree David with the conclusions. Integrated LED strip lights are an absolute abomination in increasing landfill. Well done for shining a light on this issue. 😊
we installed 200 led strips five years ago and haven't had to replace one as of yet
Imagine a manufacturer blocking you on Twitter. Ludicrous behavior
Lucecocrous behaviour Mark.
Something a teenager would do 😂
@@dsesuk
I had this after slagging a product range, and some jedward quiffed 20 something in an office "blocked" me.
Found the CEO on Linkedin and asked if this was normal practise.
It wasn't.
I was unblocked.
The 20 something had a mysterious change of job.
@@digitalradiohacker +1 for the jedward quiffed
I can't believe a manufacturer blocked you because you gave negative feedback. How childish and unprofessional is that. How will they ever learn that they have issues, if nobody tells them ? But then again, maybe they dont want to know. It certainly sais a lot more about them than it does you. Keep up the good work, Dave.
There are 3 fluorescent tubes in my dad's garage that have been untouched since he installed them back in 1984-5. The starters have been changed on occasion but they are all still going strong.
And they'll still be going long after all this cheap Chinese crap has failed. I remember fitting some T12 5ft fluorescents in my mum's garage in the mid 70's, they were still going when she died in 2020, only starters and the occasional tube replaced. LED..? No thanks.
Evening gents….what a bonus for a Sunday evening…..👍💪🇮🇲😂
I'll be on the Electrician's Podcast at half seven tonight Andy where we'll be talking about this subject further... if you're really bored!
'It'll probably end up in a dolphin somewhere' 😂 brilliant
Tell that to the dolphin 😢
The driver has a voltage that high to support the number of LEDs in series. LEDs have a varying forward voltage but brightness is dependent on current, so to get an even light output they all need to be driven at the same current. The simplest way to do this is to put them all in one series string, othewise you need multiple strings running at the same current. For a sealed light where high voltage is available this is the most simple approach. For lower voltage led strips there are multiple series strings (3 leds for 12v) each with a CC driver chip or a resistor within the strip. This is less efficient and more costly than whacking 50 leds in a series strip and running one driver.
Yeah, but also lower current also means cheaper components, thinner wire and thinner PCB tracks to keeps losses low I think. You see all sorts of configurations in LED tubes. The 24W LED tubes lighting me from above now have about 90V driver but the LEDs are grouped as sets of 4 LEDs in parallel, with 30 sets in series. I'm not sure which tail wags the dog, but it will be all down to cost one can be sure. I have had 2 out of 6 fail in 2yrs. Crap components crammed into too small a space and high temperature ageing kills them. Then they are e-waste. You just can't rework them because there is no space for a decent driver, unless you make a bespoke incompatible luminaire. They are only about £10 each but it's the waste aspect that stinks.
Ive dealt with the retail side for theatre lighting which includes many led manufacturers from Philips, osram, ledvance, ge and sorra. All of them have their own issues Ive had traditional halogen lamps last a lot longer which is alarming as many only have 500 hours guarantee due to their design.
With RESPECT David! I still can’t get that woman saying that out my head 🤣 I hope she got the help she needed in all seriousness.
I had nine dimmable integrated LED spotlights in my kitchen, one year later two of them had failed and the manufacturer had stopped making them. Ended up spending another £80 or so replacing the set while needlessly generating waste. I use GU10 LED bulbs now so at least the set is a bit cheaper to replace if needed. Easier too
I don’t know who makes IKEA lighting but I don’t think I have had a failure on it great stuff
Good work repairing the fitting! I acquired a job lot of similar fittings about a year ago in a similarly failed state. They had 1000mA constant current drivers in them which were all dead. I simply replaced them with some 700mA drivers that I already had. 1 year or so later all are still working, albeit irregular use in the man cave! They were 40w fittings, now run at 20-something watts, still plenty bright enough and hopefully running cooler means they should last a long time
I've retro-fitted all my flourescent fittings with Energizer LED tube replacements. No need for any rewiring, they come with a 'starter' replacement which bypasses the ballast, and the tubes can be fitted either way round in the fitting, and easily changed in the future without swapping the fitting itself.
The starter replacement is just a starter with shorted together pins, Ballast stays in circuit normally!
The tubes normally have a fused resistor across the second end that pops if put across the mains, seen a couple of tubes with skid-marks on one end but still work! The constant current means if you short out a blown diode on the strip it will reduce the voltage so you will lose brightness but won't over power the remaining leds...
also constant current requires no resistors less wasted energy.
the failure rate for LED fittings IS quiet high and only purchasing the trusted brands from wholesalers who will replace failures is the way to put the cheap shite out of the food chain ,
the problem is dafty homeowner likes cheap he will happily pay a nifty for a pot of paint but thinks twenty notes for a light is way too dear
Totally agree LED fittings are huge con because you can’t repair them.
Just watching a few of your old videos today what a nice evening treat
Had this convo the other day, we do lots of works in schools where mostly was fluorescent where if the odd tube would go, the caretaker could happily replace it and be up and running, now if they have an integrated led fitting like they all are, they have to call an electrician out every time if it fails
Yeah, I saw this all coming with LED lighting. There's a 2019 new build school near me and the old build had fluorescent lighting throughout which the site managers / caretakers could re-lamp. This included the emergency lighting as well as they were all 8w fluorescent. The new build is all LED and already they have had multiple LED failures which has already cost thousands. The failures weren't just a one off either. It includes loads of those mini downlight emergency lights, wall bulkheads and some outdoor lighting.
Worse than that a lot of them don’t just fail they start flickering and flashing so it then becomes an urgent callout costing the school more
I fitted out a load of existing battens with the glass LED tube replacements, I just rewired each batten so the live mad neutral went to one end an didn’t bother with the bypass starter. The tubes were extremely fragile and a number were broken on purchase, however Denmans changed them all which was good.
Live and neutral*
One of the common failure modes on the LED part of the LED fittings is down to the individual sections being a handful of LEDs in parallel, and those sections then being in series.
If one out of the (for the sake of argument) 8 LEDs in parallel fails, that means each of the remain LEDs is getting 1/8th more current than they should. That increases their temperature, so shortens the life of them so you end up with a cascade failure. Once all the LEDs in a section have died, because the sections are in series with each other that means the entire fitting stops working. If you're reasonably handy with a soldering iron it's not difficult to bypass a section and get the fitting up and running again, I made a (dull) video on the subject.
That's assuming it's an LED issue rather than a driver issue. The battens seem to have the LEDs die and the floods seem to have the drivers die, not really sure why.
In an age when single-use plastics are becoming a complete anathema, how are non-replaceable luminaires okay??? Boils my p*ss to throw out a light.
I guess I count myself lucky with all the integrated luminaires I installed in the communal places of our apartment building.
Partly pre-Signify Philips in 2015 and partly Noxion in 2016. The former went in 'as is', were promised to last 15,000 hours, but are all functioning properly 8 years later in an application in which they are on 5,000-5,500 hours per year. The latter were promised to last 35,000 hours, but I modified the drivers to lower light output (they were too bright) halving the power consumption and probably tripling (or more) the lifespan. They also are still all operational.
Having said that, my bad experiences are mostly, if not all, with retrofit LED bulbs that seem to really be designed to fail.
Constant current drivers are preferably used to adapt to changing characteristics that occur when LEDs age and they negate the need for current limiting resistors. Another advantage is that if one LED fails short, the driver will adapt and keep driving the remaining LEDs at the same current.
Constant voltage is convenient for LED strip, since it is parallel wired and can be easily cut to length. However, it is less efficient, since there needs to be a resistor in each section of LED to drop the voltage. This wastes energy. Constant current has the LEDs wired in series. This is more efficient and is how all integrated LED fittings are driven
We use the NVC Phoenix range of LED battens when rewiring our substations and so far have been performing fantastic. For floodlights we’ve been using Brackenheath but they can be hit and miss.
I have had issues with Ansell floodlights where they failed within 2 years so I contacted them and they insisted the lights had a surge or a spike damage. So 5 year warranty not applicable.
I got round it by replacing them for the cost of replacement part only with no labour charge as a sign of goodwill.
I buy cheap or free fluorescent fixtures and a whole box full of spare lamps. last for decades unlike led garbage
If I have ever seen a subject that you guys could collaborate with bigclive this has to be it. Also I didn't realise that some of the LED tubes have both a plastic and glass tube - why?
I've just moved into a fairly new house where the garage has flourescent battens so will be modding them for LED use as the tubes fail - so your next project will be of great use - thankyou guys
The plastic encapsulates the glass usually, the fittings can be used in food production facilities if the glass is encapsulated.
. @billdoodson4232 Thanks for the explanation and I can see why manufacturers just want to make one type rather than food and non-food types
Same here, had dealings with LAP and Eterna non good, my go too for LED battens are either Ansell or Knightsbridge, Both offer 5 year garantee and upto now iv fitted loads with only 1 failure about 2 years after and was swapped no questions asked.
We had 97 to fit where I work. All the same batch number. After fitting 12 which failed after 24hours we had to send the lot back to the supplier. Crap.
+David Savery Electrical Services
Have you used or seen Tridonic driver installations?
My experience with Tridonic ECO drivers (both LED and Fluorescent) with separate constant-current LED modules has been excellent!. I like setting up SwitchDIM controls, too. They seem exceptionally well made and reliable, if I'm not mistaken.
I used to replace 40W candle lamps in our wall lights on a regular basis, every couple of months. Replaced them with CFL's and although not changed, very slow to light, to a horrid colour. Replaced them with TCP LED lamps and I wrote the installation date on them, just checked and they have been in since 31/12/2013. 8 lamps saving 35 watts for about 3500 days, so almost 1 MW saved and no lamps changed. Those old ones were totally better.
That’s why I’m staying fluorescent, got loads of spares. Solar panels mean the extra consumption doesn’t matter.
Generally the integrated LED fittings are more reliable than replaceable lamp style fittings, because they have more space for the components. The GU10 style lamps have the LED and driver squashed into a very small space, making heat dissipation an issue. However, it now seems that manufacturers are squeezing out fixtures for the absolute lowest cost. Sadly of course, it is not in manufacturers interest to make a super long lasting fitting. They just need it to last past the warranty period. Then they can sell you another fixture!
This was my thought. 2014 - a community hall extension, 16 integrated downlights with a separate large driver block in the cool air space above the ceiling. Surely much more reliable than the same circuit crammed into a GU10 base immediately above the heated LED elements.Very low usage, most of it with the dimmers below 100%. 4 units failed in the first 4 years. Less life than the tungsten GU10s in the porch. Replaceable lamps for me every time now.
I must have been lucky as the 8 LED batten lamps I put in my garage which I bought cheap on-line are still going strong after about 6 years. The outside lamps I put in are also LEDs, but those are Edison screw bulbs in waterproof bulkhead lights (TLC I think), so I can swap the bulbs out if they failed, but so far fine (as are the two IR sensors I installed for them).
In the kitchen, I use GU10s as they are replaceable, rather than integrated LEDs. Where practical I will continue to use light fittings with replaceable LED bulbs (or whatever we should call them).
nb. it is possible to do your own LED lighting using self-adhesive LED strips in aluminium extrusions and diffusers with low voltage wiring and using 12 or 24V drivers. Those are fixable the the sense that you can replace the LED strips or drivers, but some soldering required. Also, the light output of those cheap LED strips are rather variable, especially cheap on-line ones. The LED strips are also not the most power efficient as they are groups of 3 (for 12V) or 6 (for 12V) with a dropper resistor in each set, and you cut them along lines. The design is inherently robust in that a failure only takes out one group of 3 or 6 LEDs. The resistor wastes a bit of energy as heat. To be truly efficient you need a design with LEDs in series, a higher voltage and a constant current driver. Those are more vulnerable though, as if there are, say, 32 LEDs in series, just one failing will prevent the others working.
Love the glass smashing sound effects 😂 (only joking, would of thought it was made from clear plastic)
Proper glass my friend. I'll be keeping the shoes on in here for a while as I keep finding shards the hoover didn't pick up!
We've been having Great Fun™ at work with LED floodlamps replacing some great big daft gas discharge lamps, and my boss was buying Mystery Magic Brand™ 30W floodlamps that were searingly bright compared to the 250W discharge lamps they replaced, for less power! Great stuff!
...yyyyyeah, they lasted anywhere between 1 to 6 months, before big patches of the LEDs would go out, or they'd go out in a very exciting puff of smoke and a skidmark. And each time, we're throwing nearly a kilo of aluminium, plastic, LED, and components into the skip. Meanwhile, I'm still grabbing bulbs out of the discharge lamps that we stashed in the back of the shed, to replace burned out ones in the fixtures we still have up.
Since then, the boss has been buying slightly nicer branded floodlamps and they seem to be surviving a little longer, but it still remains to be seen how long they'll actually last. It's a shame that the market is flooded with so much cheap skip-ballast crap, that's been hewn out of the earth, processed into An Product at some expense (monetary, and environmental), only for it to be such shite that it lasts a month and then ends up lobbed into the bin.
What a JUVENILE thing for Luceco to do... We do the replaceable lamp route too, battens without control gear, and for downlights, GU10 etc. Had too many customers (not ours) with dead LED downlights of a kind you can no longer get, so 2 dead lamps means replacing every fitting in a kitchen, Ridiccoolus
Hello @TheChipmunk2008 🍺🍻🍺🥃🥳
24:36 that’s how you have to wire them in Switzerland when you convert them (they have a rule of course). Makes sense though as anyone replacing the LED tube in future doesn’t need to worry about which way around to put it.
Regarding CC driver with high voltage, the main thing is efficiency, for two reasons.
Reason 1: Power dissipation is greater at high currents from the equation P = I^2 * R. For a given number of LEDs, they will have a given electrical power demand. Taking P = I * V this time, decreasing voltage increases current, which increases dissipation but to the second order (the I^2 from the first equation there) in any wiring, PCB traces, and components (semiconductors, inductors, capacitors, etc.).
Reason 2: Conversion ratio of the driver. A driver converting between 240V and 12V just will be less efficient than an equivalent quality driver (i.e. not one using cheap components from 20 years ago) converting to 175V or whatever the number quoted in the video was.
Essentially, for efficiency, wherever possible you want to run the highest voltage (below that of the supply, be that mains, a 9V battery etc.) at the lowest current. This is sometimes deviated from for practical reasons - one may want parallel arrays of LEDs so that a single failure doesn't wipe out the light completely as it would in a purely series approach.
EDIT: This rule holds true for domestic wiring between the UK and US for example - electrical loads are rated on amps, right? Whereas we in the UK can get away with far higher power devices on the same rated wiring.
I wholeheartedly agree with you on the ban of fluorescent - and even incandescent - lighting. It's misguided and much to soon. Before such standardized technologies were phased out we should at the very least have had a consensus design for modular LED fixtures. Standard replaceable LED drivers like the old fluorescent starters and standard replaceable strips and bulbs.
I've had a Brackenheath LED floodlight on my house for about 7 years now still going strong 💪
they're not cheap but this one was "leftover" from a job so cant complain 😉🤣
I have one on my house and it's lasted 3 years. However, I installed one for a customer and it failed 3 times 😮
Hooray - Linda’s coming back! I recall she taught me a new naughty word last time you filmed together!
Yes, if all goes well then Linda and I should be hard at it on a site this time next week!
Ta Richard .. err .. yes, one could say I have a way with words .. and btw, I loved the upload on your channel ..
@@LindaTheLearner Thanks! I assisted the artists with automation of the water pump / siphon and making it safe for the public (RCD etc.)!
That was very dangerous taking a photo of Nigel at meal times . Maybe you guys should reach out to companies with fluorescents and offer your conversion to led while keeping hardware. Seems brilliant.
someone producing LED floodlights with robust Diodes in factories with low ambient humidity would be a start
Sorry to hear that Ledvance have gone down the pan: my older onces are, I think, from the Osram era and still working. However, I have suffered poor reliability of Meridian batten LEDs and each time I got an FOC replacement which, so far, have been OK. I agree: thermal management is the likely cause of unreliability, particularly when the LED strip looses adhesion to the carcass so all heat sinking is lost. As ever an informative video: thanks!
I'm also upset to see that collingwood are failing... always liked them
My mother has a fluorescent fitting in her kitchen since the 70s, tubes been replaced over the years and still going strong although it's buzzing in use which doesn't bother her as she's half deaf! point being the make is Crompton and will probably last another 50 years!
That's hardly surprising considering that there's nothing in it to fail apart from a choke that's buzzing and possibly a capacitor which you wouldn't notice if it did fail. I have one in my garage that was fitted in 1959 which also buzzes and is rusting badly but still works fine.
I am old enough to recall the 1980s when, at the shows, we were told that once they get LED lighting sorted, they will last so long that you will build them into the house like a brick, because they will NEVER go wrong - yeah right.
Dunno who said that in the 80s? If you use a phosphor, which any nice white light does, it has a finite life.
If the systems were designed and tested properly then they would. But they're not.
And manufacturers just repeating the 50,000 hr life quoted for the LEDs (when correctly driven and cooled) , and driving them with poor and over-rated components that fail as fast as a tungsten bulb!
I agree with your stance David on the LED crapola out there. I have been using Ledison manufactured by Volticon for the past 3 years which are retrofit single ended LED straight to mains tubes. They also do an emergency module if you want to convert a standard existing fitting to emergency which is great. Yet to have one fail on me having installed 100s. They also do the pl compact fluorescent Led straight to mains. Unless a fitting is damaged, why the hell go to all the agro of ripping it out, especially if its recessed or fead through conduits etc.
Nice video I do share your woes, Unfortunately we have the same replaceable batten leds in a workshop and we are forever changing them , poor design with the electronics in the end cap that can not dissipate the heat,
I replaced the mains controller capacitors and series inductor, to ones of higher qualities (longer hour caps 12,000 hr at specified ripple current) I then designed a brand new controller for the Light that was small enough to mount in the light fitting.
Yes definitely a bit of over kill but was just to proof the concept it was more efficient and is using a dedicated controller.
Agreed that integrated light source LED battens are landfillums. I have double 18W 2G11 bulbs in daily use from 2018 and as long as the LED's wont outlive it I wont switch as long as I have spare tubes._
This luceco 6 foot led replacement tube definitely read 10 ohms across the dead end then sizzled and smoked when I stuffed 10 amps through it with the bench power supply. Fusible resistor perhaps? I did the same thing, nicked it out the recycling. Forgot about it until I saw this video.
Hey guys, see if you can get your hands on some DAVIS lighting or SAL gear. They’re two very common brands in Aus and I’ve installed hundreds of each with very few problems (SAL has personally had slightly more failures than DAVIS). Not sure if they’re complaint with British Standards but great LED options in my opinion.
How about whacking a power supply directly on the led strip just to make sure it's the strip at fault?
Has anyone ever mentioned that you look like Greg Davies? 🙂 Keep up the good work guys! Love your videos!
HAH yes, the single resistor... failure... our livingroom tv is a 'kerbside rescue'. the PSU wasn't powering up, it was the bootstrap resistor to let it get itself out of standby.
Why high voltage output for the constant current driver? Sounds like that is about 50W. I guess the lower the voltage then the higher the current needs to be which means more cost in thicker wiring, thicker PCB tracks and higher heat dissipation and losses to worry about.
It's generally a capacitor that's fails, are rescued a few for use at home, but clearly something you can't afford to mess about with for a customer
23:18 I have been quite drunk, we need a full on pissed up drunken rant video
I'm concerned about the quailty of most electrical components, from the UK and the far east. How can you make a RCBO for less than £15, it may catch fire, solution house it in a metal fusebox.
Its for one of the big lighting manufacturers to design floods and strips with removable led modules, something you can return to the wholesalers and pick up a fresh module and slot it in to the fitting. If they did that I would then stick to the brand, any fault would be a quick swap over.
Most people use sound effects to insinuate destruction.... Mr Savery just smashes the shite out of stuff....
Good call on wiring the lampholders in series, prevents bangs when customers/maintenance people put the toob in backwards. Also a lot of those tubes actually have a fuse linking the 'do not power' end
CC driver is probably to provide even output across the length of the tube, constant voltage tends to be lower voltage and could suffer volt drop down the length
CC drivers for series LEDs
CV drivers for parallel LEDs
The forward voltage of around 3V varies between LEDs and with temperature, constant current is best for driving LEDs as it keeps the correct current and consistent brightness. Constant voltage is less efficient as it needs series resistors on the LED PCB to limit current. The 12V LED tape has sections of 3 series LEDs and a resistor across the 12V rails, repeated along the length.
@@dino6627 So how thick would the tracks have to be on a 5m led strip?
@@cunning-stunt With long parallel strings when you are limited to 12V and fed from one end, it is the same problem with either CV or CC, drawing 3A or more current and the brightness dropping along the length.
With a constant 12V supply and series resistors, around a quarter of the power in a 5m strip is wasted by the resistors. This is seen as OK for convenience and being cheap to produce, but it is no good for room lighting.
@@dino6627 Yet all Led strip is produced to run on constant voltage. You can also buy voltage amplifiers for install at every 5m.
If the LEDs in a strip were series connected the copper tracks and LEDs themselves act like resistors and the size of the tracks on a 5m strip would need to be considerably larger in size. You are worrying about fractions of milli amps and creating a problem where there is not one.
All LED strip these days is 24V not 12V and I have never had an issue with dim LEDs due to volt drop on a 5m run of strip..
You can buy R7 LED double end cob lamps which retrofit into conventional halogen floodlights. So just fit a conventional halogen pir fitting with the LED R7 lamp installed. Worst case, if the lamp fails, the customer just fits another led R7 rather than calling you back to fit a new floodlight. The led R7's are cheap enough to even leave a spare lamp with the customer which combined with the original lamp will probably see out your warranty period.
I have used these before. I've no problem fitting these where the floodlight casing and sensor are still sound.
Regarding ip rating. I bought an ansell tornado 6ft led fitting for my garden under a pergola (so out of direct weather). Supposedly ip65. It has 6 metal clamps on each side to clamp the shade on. However, the plastic base and shade are so flimsy there's actually gaps between the two with all the clamps fastened shut. I wouldn't trust them exposed to the elements at all. I was surprised to see them installed out in the open at a local theme park. I was even more surprised to see them fitted in abundance at my am2 test centre! 😂
I would love to see somebody get hold of a thorlux light (£££) and see what's so special about them and why they cost so much.
I have DIY LED lights in my apartment. AC-DC PSUs are running somewhat warm to the touch, the last few volts get dropped via Linear Regulators. Had a single issue with a cold solder joint in a switchmode PSU.
And if something ever breaks, I built it, I can repair it.
I like the idea behind LED lighting, but the practice makes it a load of crap. Given my line of work, I'm using a lot of theatre and effect lights; not all that long ago, if a lamp went phutt, you replaced it and ensured you had a ton of spares for when the next one inevitably went phutt... Now, when a lamp dies; you have to replace the whole fixture; some of which are hundreds, if not thousands of quid a pop... And where does the old fixture go...? In the bin, as in the case of a lot of light fixtures, even the good ones aren't worth a wank...
As you say LED lighting can be a problem. I have had several Meridian LED replacements for fluorescent fittings in my garage which have failed. They inevitably failed when some of the LED packed up. I have repaired them by bridging the failed LED with 3v LED strips off eBay. Unfortunately I accept that this isn't a commercial solution but It is difficult to find an LED strip light replacement that is as reliable as the suppliers suggest.
I dont think its boring at all guys, absolutely agree with you, the issues with this technology should have been sorted years ago,
I don't know if you ever fitted the JCC downlights a few years back. I went back countless times to different jobs where they had failed after a few days/weeks /months. Absolute shite. Stopped buying them. Many other contractors i know also had the same issues. I now use KSR. no failures so far apart from over heating issue due to dense loft insulation on one job that was my fault.
Yeah, I caught the JCC FGLED wave. Put me off integrated downlights and JCC for life. Haven't touched 'em since, never will.
I had two of those fail. Both times just a dry joint on that solder tag 😂
Most failures probably fall in to a couple of camps... overheating of the LED's causing them to fail... usually as a result of being driven way to hard which generates more heat. The other mostly are the capacitors - many failures are the ones that bootstrap the chip that generates the voltage to actually drive the fiting. Symptoms include things like flickering until things warm up or they fully take a dump and don't work at all. FInally the LED's themselves, although these are generally reliable so you'll have usually had to do something really horrible to them to make them take a dump as well
You guys should do a vid with big Clive !!! Buy a bunch of les floods from the wholesaler and get big Clive to break it down … what’s good what’s not!!! Would be awesome…
The problem is that LED manufacturers have been quoting 50000 hours life time. The issue is that this is over 5 years and the consumer rights act basically says things should last for reasonable period of time and if they state 50k hours then that sets the definition for reasonable period of time.
The problem with is that you have to take them to court to get it settled and it’s not worth the effort so the manufacturers get away with it.
Osram makes some decent retrofitt LED tubes,I put some in my shed 3yrs ago & still going strong,no bullshit thus far.⚡🔌💡
Have you got any experience with Thorlux fixtures at all? Quite a few of their models have replaceable parts and modules, not to mention retrofit replacement modules for the old discharge lamp fixtures they used to make and sell. We've got plenty of their 2D and 6ft fluorescent fittings still going strong.
Is there any particular LED tube brand that you would currently recommend?
We fit Fusion from CEF. Three-year warranty and Fusion stuff has been pretty robust for us in the past.
Replaced kitchen fluorescent light with 6no 4w Megaman 246211 13years ago still going strong (still listed for sale on Amazon) I wonder if they are of same quality now, I agree with non replaceable led lighting manufacturers driving the chips too hard hence shortening there life modifications can be made to make them last longer (bigclive) .
Need to start a movement to stop this crap especially when EFIXx are pushing all this garbage
Constant current power supply has some merit, if an individual LED in a series string goes short it does not over-run the remaining ones. A constant voltage supply suits a "tube" that has integral current limiting. I share you disgust at many modern light fittings and the lamps, had halogen lamps that have not lasted a day, flourescent tubes that have failed in a month. It is not the technology at fault, it is cheap manufacturing and lack of quality control. About the lamps were compact flourescent, lights, some of them used conventional chokes nd nearly pulled the drop cord out of the ceiling rose
On a personal note I've changed a 40watt led flood at the same property 3 times with the last 18 months, it's frankly embarrassing now, the guys very understanding but I'm running out of manufacturers to try.
I don’t supply them now,I get the client to get or choose them,if it fails then the client pays to replace.
Still running a Thorlux T12 Twin with SRS chokes in my garage.. That ain't going nowhere 👌
I've always used BELL and JCC, no problems so far 🤞
With regard to security style lighting, I will only fit Steinel lights, they might help you maintain your 2 year guarantee to your customers. They’re much more expensive but built to a proper standard.
Had several failures from both decent and cheap brands. Crap capacitors, poor soldering (goddamn lead free), driver IC’s self destructing. No airflow around the driver board. Also the LEDs themselves go o/c and kill part if or the whole thing. Must give a mention to some older Asda branded GU10s though, when I did the basement I used lots of GU10s as got the fittings cheap but the bulbs were chewing up the electricity even when it was cheap. Threw the Adsa LED ones in and they have been superb!
I used to use robus. They weren't cheap but didn't go wrong .
Then we had a install of emergency lights.
109 lights installed and after 6 months 95 of them failed the battery test .
Robus didn't want to know.
No customer support . Nowt .
I now install Bell lighting.
They actually do onside support. And will Sent someone out to change a light if it does go faulty.
Power Factor is one of the main drivers of electricity prices
The best LED lighting is the installation of a rose holder batten and an LED bayonet bulb.
Change that for an incandescent bulb and I'm with you there..!
Imagine the cost of running the whole house on incandescent lamps
Ours are all either incandescent, halogen or CFL. Wouldn't have an LED if you paid me. Horrible things.
I have had no issues with Timeguard, Tamlite, Collingwood, Scolmore Ovia and NVC Floodlights.
Waiting for the pan out to the bandaged bloodied feet as you walk out the door
cheers
This is exactly why i don't buy products with integrated LED's At least with a led bulb it's only a few quid to replace.
Had nothing but problems with collingwood floods. We use Ansell. Rarely have an issue
I hear good and bad things about Collingwood and Ansell. For any one person who rates 'em, another will come along to slate 'em!
Sealant Tip - Put a screw in the end of it when finished - You wont get any more blockages.
The rush to replace 70lm/W fluorescents with 90lm/W LEDs of dubious reliability is an absolute waste. Nowhere near as much benefit as the replacement of incandescents. And the demand for cheap fittings to do so just pollutes the market with junk so we can't get good ones for new installs. And if the manufacturers weren't so set on selling you another one as soon as possible, we could have reliable fittings which are significantly more efficient, but they need their revolving door of revenue for the shareholders - stuff the customer.
Just had to source and replace the driver in a 65W LED fitting (which replaced a
How about linking up with Big Clive to do a video to analyse the faults with these failed LED battens.
He did one where the fault was the driver, not the LED strip, which he repaired.
You drive the LED string with a constant current so the current through the string is self limiting.
If you drive an LED with a constant voltage the current will be unlimited and burn out the LED. (You will need a limiting resistor if you want to drive an LED or LED string with a constant voltage).
There will be a limiting resistor on the LED strip segments that are designed to be driven from a constant voltage supply.
If an LED shorts (more likely?) a constant current will result in the same volt drop across the remaining individual LEDs adn the same current through them .
Ohms law..1mA through a 1k resistor = 1v, 1 mA through 2 x 1K resistors in series = 2v, but still only 1v across each resistor, short out one of the resistors and the same 1mA current will still leave 1v across the only remaining resistor.
Constant voltage on the other hand will see the voltage and the current across the one remaining resistor double and stress it out leading to greater chance of future failure
Where as if you have a device that is more likely to open circuit you would have multiple devices in parallel with each having a current limiting resistor for load balancing because none of the LEDs will have the exact same volt drop across them.
From memory LEDs are a current devices, so a constant current through them will result in them being closer to intensity to each other than constant voltage, you also only need 1 resistor to set the current limit for a series LED driver resulting in a lower component count.
The LED strips that were used are in parallel and have that limiting resistor.
I am presuming that the higher voltage output constant current module has a higher over all efficiency too
In larger flat panel LED lights we have it is a combination of parallel and series, so we may have 12 LEDs in series and 12 strings in parallel, so any fault will not take out the whole panel be it a short or open circuit.
Just my 2 cents on the matter...
Slightly off topic but whats the chauvin arnoux F407 like? Looks a nice bit of kit?
When I get a chance to properly play with it, I'll let you know! It's the only clamp meter I've got with Bluetooth though!
I fit loads of LAP floodlights and I've only had 1 failure. They may not be a quality brand, but they work well and last fine
That's not been my experience.
Time to swing by the Barber hey Dave?😉✂️
Hate to say it but the basic LAP LED batten in my kitchen has been fantastic. So good I've got 2 in the garage and one on a flex and plug top I use as flood lighting. Brilliant, doddle to fit and they can daisy chain. I'm not a spark dealing with this stuff day in day out mind, but for a consumer who understands his skill and capability level these have been great for me. Hopefully I've been lucky and will still have a working kitchen light in the morning 😂
Same. I’ve had my LAP up in my kitchen for about 3yrs now.