AFDD: Hager Hatchet Job
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- Опубликовано: 22 окт 2023
- Okay, I feel like a bit of a dick with this one because I don’t want to give over a Savo vs. Hager vibe and I’m really not deliberately gunning for them. I'd also quite like not to be sued, nonetheless, I have my opinion on this product and what I see as Hager's failings, so world+dog can tune in to agree or disagree... or they can go watch something else entirely.
I think Hager are proud of their AFDD offering and perhaps have their hearts in the right place as they attempt to proffer something other manufacturers don’t have. Nonetheless, as the very person Hager expects to buy, install and support this product, I have genuine concerns with it that they may not have considered which is a massive failing of their R&D. At the end of the day, does their doowhicker help to get me off the van and into the pub quicker than models from other brands?
No… no, it doesn’t. In fact, Hager have failed to provide the reassurances and resources I believe are vital when working with this device. Even a firmware update page is absent at the time of recording, and failure to support backward compatibility whilst simultaneously bragging of their legendary backward compatibility is frankly… astonishing.
I also don’t want to overlook Verso who kindly provided an example of their product for me and Linda to whizz through in the cave. Linda got a bit shy when the cameras were rolling, so sorry if this comes off more as mansplaining! Also, the focus is off on a couple of shots. Dunno why, and I didn’t notice when drunkenly editing the sodding thing.
So, there we have it. Maybe I’m missing something with Hager’s AFDD that the fanbois can defend. The comments are open folks - go nuts!
Chapters:
00:00:00 Intro
03:45:21 Verso testing
14:03:00 Hager R&D rant
17:37:17 Backwards compatible?
23:49:17 Hager testing (old firmware)
27:11:22 Hager firmware update
31:41:13 Hager testing (new firmware)
33:12:20 'Serie' arc logs?!
35:35:17 Hager testing to arc chamber limits
40:27:17 Marketing bobbins
47:10:01 Barbecued granny
48:16:05 The firmware nightmare
53:47:19 Is the standard up to standard?
57:27:01 Coffee and cigars
The boardroom and tech support phrasing shown in this video on behalf of the likes of Hager and Siemens are not representative of real-life conversations and are wholly fabricated. I imagine you knew that, but I don't want Hager's scumbag solicitors shouting at me.
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Наука
AFDD?
All Fucking David Does
Fucking tell me about it!
Good at least somebody is showing Hager for what they are Shite
😂
Little did Hager know, Ian's EV charger had a genuine fault and was producing massive arc's. The signature that was recorded and implemented in the firmware now means any type of arc is ignored.
Goes to show though - these things are supposed to be going in on socket circuits, yet if they have a problem with granny chargers, generally speaking that is, not just Hager, it could cause quite a headache for us on nuisance trip callbacks.
Your videos regarding this are definitely getting noticed here in Ireland, it was the talk of the wholesalers, Hager will find this tough to sell in future
David ….. excellent video as usual …. Infact the most important you have done to date.
Hagar are not new to recalls all over the world and I can see another before Greenville fire.
The other problem with these Hagar AFDDs is only the installer should be called out to any problems ….. if I was called out to a Hagar AFDDs board it is not worth the risk on doing anything….. firmware can’t be passed on to another installer and you have no chance of being paid by a customer for time spent on updates…… you can see hagars next problem …. Firmware is no longer compatible with this product…….Hagar should bring some AFDDs to your rig and explain why they don’t work …..this is a life saving video and Hagar must respond
Excellent work David with a funny side …. Always keep up the good work 👍👏
A few years ago the industry said we were behind the EU. They also said Germany had been using AFDDs for years. Well AFDDs in Germany were called Fire Safety Device. After several years of sparks arguing the point the German wiring rules changed. AFDD are no longer mandatory on all circuits in Germany as there were to many issues and no real way to test and verify the AFDD units.
I had this point (and a couple of others) in the script originally, but I cut it out when the damn video was exceeding an hour. I read about how the Germans had rowed back on making them mandatory.
Wow, again wow! Really interesting video Dave. Will definitely be looking into this and won’t be looking very closer at Hager! Thats truly a horrible strategy!
Wonderful and useful video! It is clearly seen that the temperature increase is noticeable regardless of the presence of an arc in the defective connection.
AFDD does not protect against fire. This protection is an illusion because ignition occurs due to resistive heating. Fire also occurs when touching flammable materials and hot surfaces of heating devices. In this case, no electrical indicators change and the danger can only be detected by the fire alarm. Arc protection is thus a very narrowly focused technology that attempts to address a tiny number of the total number of hazards. Moreover, even this attempt usually turns out to be unsuccessful. AFDD tests just prove the low efficiency of arc detection. And I think that the Hager developers have deliberately lowered the sensitivity, they know that AFDD is useless and are simply avoiding complaints due to false shutdowns.
Thank God you are raising awareness David on this issue. Manufacturers lose sight of the human activity and just see the pound signs. My industry allowed millions of windows to be installed with burglar friendly external beads. Why the hell did the legislators do nothing to stop it? Guess they were playing poo sticks with unprocessed turds at the local river with their chums from the water works.
Think of the money these lot have been paid to write that cobblers on there, and you as a side job / hobby have picked the absolute ass out of it and done them on nearly every point. Amazing work as always Dave!
Ah its time for AFDD weekly! Awesome! Strapping in for more entertainment, top job! Who are the hager fan boys/girls?
Honestly, I am done this time Marky. Unless...
Very detailed and fair video! Wonderful to see Linda bringing some class to proceedings aswell! That is very worrying to see the Hager products not appearing to function as other options. Tbh we stopped using them when switched neutral rcbos become more of a requirement on those EV jobs I know you love! Other brands seem to be well ahead of them atm. I hope you dont attract a similar instagram pile on I had the pleasure of for explaining why outdoor 60898 products are not very smart. A sly, horrible person who did some good stuff with apprentice 121 is apparently what "everyone" thinks. Or perhaps just the view of some ego maniacs riding a false narrative of toxic positvity. Im not bitter about it, honest....
Oo-er, sorry to hear of the pile-on Marky. Mind you, anyone shouting at me will get a foul mouthed earful in return!
Can you send me one and I'll take a look?
@@Swwils Email me with your deets and what you have in mind!
@@dsesuk well these things have a rogowski coil in them so if they have messed up the dc power supply for this then they have a big problem on their hands.
Maybe they should rename the system the HAL 9000 given its famous quote " Sorry Dave I can't do that".
So basically hagers AFDD’s are a big con and cost £100+ each and do absolutely nothing but have an led on them and take up loads of space. I’m genuinely glad you shown this series (no pun intended) of videos because, until Hager recall these and release a working model AND David savery proves they work, I’ll not be using them at all.
I'm sure they do work - they must do, surely? I bet they rock the requirements of BS[EN]60626. The wider question may be if that standard is up to snuff.
@@dsesuk taking their word for meeting requirements obviously doesn’t cut the mustard.
Worth also noting that the temperature rise in your arc chamber was on those quite large brass pipe fittings which I bet has a much higher thermal inertia than some wire or switch contact which would probably heat up and melt a hell of a lot quicker under the same sustained arc!
Yeah, that copper pipe and brass stop-end makes for a phat heat sink compared to the usual termination point.
Dave, this is a bloody good job on exposing the possible pitfalls of these new fangled updatable smart home pointlessness. I don’t want to be making an appointment with a tenant who doesn’t want to see my ugly face again just to be saying “I need to update your Bluetooth connectivity on your non functioning expensive recently installed fuseboard”. What are they going to think! They will say “fuck you, you just installed it and now it needs another update”. It’s embarrassing! And bloody hell 175 degrees, that is quite frightening. I think Hagar have dropped the ball on this one and trying to pass the buck when the shit hits the fan! Always love the vids 👍
Yes, this is a problem. If I've just updated the CU with these things, my client won't be impressed with my turning up and trying to charge them for my time to implement updates. And how regular will these updates be?
So what happens if the consumer decides to do their own upgrade, without following the instructions. Will it go badly wrong and die?
Excellent report David - wouldn't now touch their stuff even with your bargepole!!
A pleasure to watch you two from start to end (even the shout outs). It’s a shocking story - reminds me of the VW dieselgate affair with a device tuned to only respond to the very specific test conditions in the specs.
Thanks for persevering! And an interesting comparison.
Does that mean you need to state the firmware version if you have a Hagar AFDD when doing an EICR? Is a firmware update then considered a remedial? Would an old firmware on the Hager AFDD constitute a C3 or does it get a LIM?
Good point. Whether you fit these or not, and whether you like it or not, I imagine anyone performing EICRs will have to have the app and be prepared to interrogate any examples they come across. Either that, or expressly LIM it on the report.
It's an interesting question isn't it? AFDDs have a microcontroller or like sitting inside them running the show. Knock Hager, sure, but what about that other brand AFDD you have? Does it perform the same as the new unit of the same brand you bought last week? Does the new unit have any indication at all that it contains different firmware to the 2 year old unit of the same model?
If you are required/asked to fit a CU with an AFDD, which manufacturer is the one you would go to?
@@steveadderley4238 Verso
Another great vid and investigation Savo. Hager really need to reply to this one way or another, I can't imagine many sparks still installing them if they hide and hope this all blows over. It will be the talk of the counter in the morning.
Some basic website updates would be a start. Just adding a firmware changelog makes it a more valid product. Without that, we have no way of knowing whether past units require updating or not.
@@dsesuk Running the website through a spell checker would be a good start..!
When talking about "Testing to destruction", I had assumed the DUT, not the test gear.
So, If you install them in a block of flats, and a firmware update is issued are the building owner liable for paying the invoice for the time taken to upgrade all this or Hager, or as it is under warranty would we have to suck up the bill???
A ground-breaking new protective device? Doesn't sound very safe to me!
I see what you did there.
Keep em coming......loving it, well done
11 years ago Big Clive did "240v electric potato". I wonder if the Hager AFDD would recognise passing 240V through a spud as a fault?
It's interesting the way the Hager guys had their AFDD housed in, what looks to be, a plastic enclosure at Elex. I said it before and I'll say it again, if that Hager AFDD is in a metal CU, and depending on where the Bluetooth antenna is within the AFDD, the enclosure will act like a Faraday cage that will either seriously reduce, if not completely block the signal, unless you've whipped off the front of the enclosure.
A better idea would be to have an RCD form factor logger, or even a main switch sized logger with an LCD screen, that all the AFDDs in a board could log faults to, then that logger could store the faults for retrieval/clearing by a spark when they're called out.
Centralised monitoring is just over the horizon I'm sure!
@@dsesukit’s a game changer 😂
And the device is ONLY approved for fitting in a metal enclosure, where the pointless bluetooth functionality will not work!
@@JC-jv5xw Hager's next "game changing" idea, carbon fibre bus bars, that'll make CUs lighter, faster, stronger... 🤣
You have to remove the front cover to disconnect the load.
Ive not watched it all yet Dave, but Hager should be hiring you! No doubt there will be a recall on electrical 1st website soon. Unbelievable! David and Goliath! Hager with millions behind them, but it takes you, a sparky, a very clever sparky, to point out they dont work. Love your videos, well done. 👍
I don't think Hager will be thanking me for this, although they might sneak some changes into their web pages to at least correct the spelling errors and to change one or two instances of 'game changing' to, say, 'ground breaking!'
@@dsesuk Because fire safety is not a game, I guess.
Wow very interesting, I think Hager will find themselves in legal shit fairly quickly if they don’t sort things out.
I wonder how many returns and complaints they’ve had since that thing was launched. ?
Thank you for another great video David 👍
It probably works just fine to BS[EN]62606 Sean, and who would know otherwise as there's no official way for us to test 'em!
But good by the video Gary Hayers did at the lewden lab the did the same as you the only difference was arch chamber was in a three phase enclosure . Yes there divide did work fairly quickly. That Hager dive clearly has a few major design flaws .
Excellent work 👏 Insurance companies take note !
😂 01:04:50 the same noise made inside ones head when on holiday and a topless beach goer walks past and you can feel the wife's eyes 👀 on you
I am familiar with this scenario.
😂
Does an arc produced by a smaller CSA for which the arc can jump make some difference? Hypothetically could the AFDD be looking at the energy, time and arc waveform for a consistent result? Of course this would open the question of failing switches with enlarged contact pads being the point of failure if that would also not work. Either way, they are seemingly useless. Maybe solder some 6mm CSA cable to the arc pads, and see if the concentration of the arc makes it go?
In my first AFDD vid from 2018 I tried using 4 or 6mm wires without much success. I switched to the brass stop-ends after seeing a couple of proper test rigs which seemed to have wider points of contact. It works completely reliably, except for the Hager!
@dsesuk I'm merely playing devil's advocate. The chamber you have made keeps the arc stable in terms of the distance. My query is merely that I wonder if the arc represented real life in terms of the "split" as such, being held constant distance on a lower CSA, would the Hager be looking for something like that. Maybe Hager have numbed their device to the point where it is accurately looking for a cable, fixed in position with a broken conductor, where rhe arc is consistent in terms of the dissipation of power and arc strength. Maybe also the cable must be installed in such a way, that the installers 4 great grandparents must be living in the household during an event?
TLDW: 3 Identical AFDD Hagers failed to trip from either analog arc simulators with and without firmware updates. Spelling mistakes on hager's PDFs and in the bluetooth app abound. Not retrofittable into non metal CU's.
Probably coded by an intern then 😅
Another fascinating watch, thanks for posting and all good points you raise. Have you started building a new arc generator using the BS62606 doc? I can see you eventually getting your scope out to record and compare different arc patterns.
I thought the idea was that AFDDs would spot any arc that could cause a fire? If the software only spots a specific test machine arc then I'd like to know more about why that is the "right" kind of arc and yours is the "wrong" kind
I tried reading that thing and it's horrendous Peter. Another iffily worded thing that sends you on a wild goose chase between sections as you try to interpret what it's trying to say.
@@dsesuk I'll bet the main priority is to avoid nuisance tripping, which to be fair, is probably not that easy. But the other manufacturers have managed to do it.
I've not read this standard, but your description reminded me very well of the time I tried to make sense of another.
It would be interesting to see what's inside and a reverse engineering, although it probably won't show much, with everything being done inside a microcontroller.
i have to say i purchased a hager afdd because i had some wacky ideas on how to make it trip all of them were unsuccesful it got to the point were i was so frustrated i started to get from sketchy to dam right dangerous and extreme. something you would see in a photonic induction or syropyro video. still couldnt get it to trip. i want to remain open minded but there marketing blurb and there case study is bs. it doesnt fill me with confidence. great video as always and nice to see the lovely linda again.
If I had a backyard, I would probably import one for a sketchy carbon-rod setup, just to see one trip.
@@MazeFrame tried that with no success
I have a sight with some "decommissioned" wiring with a real arc fault, would love to try the Hager on it and maybe the others...... Yes it's a listed building etc....
Couldn’t agree with you more David. This has completely changed my opinion of Hager, I have carried out my own experiments with these devices and have similar results. I have installed a couple of AFDDs in TPN boards which equally aren’t compatible now it seems.
I mentioned in the video that you might be able to stick their AFDDs into legacy TPN boards, but the guidance notes state these AFDDs "...are retrofittable in 18th edition (metal) Hager Consumer Units only", so it seems anything predating 2018 is off the table(?)
Yeah although they are only rated to 6ka and have a short neutral fly lead, so have to mounted lower in the DB or extend the fly lead.
Wonder if the firmware update is cached on the mobile device?
Might be able it code review it
Hi, this may be a very silly question but when can we Expect 10 KA afdds for 3 phase commercial industrial applications from any manufacturer? Or even Afdd equiped Switched fused spur units would possibly be a good idea, i also do not think Hager is perfect they do not bring any real innovation to market that other brands do alot better like Crabtree Starbreaker SBS Schneider, CPN Cudis LUMO or even M2.
It may not be a scientific test by definition, but that looked like a fair creation of a series arc to me. I've said it before I don't trust AFDD's that I cannot verify correct operation apart from taking it on faith by pressing the test button.
Hi, I also wonder about the life span of Afdds what happens with electronic computer chip in them dies and stops working.
I’m sure I saw a crosshair on your forehead before the end of this blog!! Good work Mr S .
Seems like Hager = Teflon here. Question - did you introduce the arc from open to closed circuit or the other way around, if that’s the right terminology
Both ways - contacts open (in the video) and contact's closed off-camera. Either way, a current flows, arcs appear and these devices seemingly ought to pull the power.
Funny watching Davo masking his pain by slating his former partner/lover Nigel, he’s left a big hole but I’m sure Dave is an expert in filling holes and will really move on soon 😉
Great video David! Love to be a fly on the wall the next time you see the guys at the Hager stand 🤦♂️ They’ll be dreading it #awkward 😂
Dave, can you rig up something to test mcbs. We've been putting our faith in them for years, much the same way we are expected to with these afdds and spds. Very rare to come across an mcb which has tripped, it's the Rcd 9 times out of 10. How do we know an mcb is going to operate as it should.
MCB technology is simple and tried & tested enough that we can generally trust the big brands to work. The only surefire way to test one is to whack a fault current through it. Easy enough - short the outgoing line to neutral! (Don't really).
Oh they deffo work alright once working in a old house knocked a florescent light on the ceiling not very secure may I add the earthed metal caseing cut through the live wire and the mcb went bang straight away the rcd didn't have time to blink lol
Great video.
How many updates before it just gets bricked, regardless of the tripping history?
Maybe Hager will supply you with an Elex style box of tricks to test all your AFDDs with from now on?
I want to know what this 'trace box' is that their boffins apparently use?!
@@dsesuk Probably just a DSO (digital storage oscilloscope!)
I hope no cats were harmed in the making of this production. 😊. Great presentation, as always highlighting important points. Is there any relation to the magnitude of the load current and arc being superimposed on it.
I've seen that expression more times than I care to remember; "Get that stuff off me, point that camera somewhere else, oh and FEED ME" 🐱
You are absolutely right again! This product is dirt. Rubbish, utter crap and really hager need to answer as to why this doesn't work in real time scenarios. I fit hager boards and will be going back to lewden or switching to fusebox. Bloody shame.
Wow. That Hager just didn't want to trip on that series fault. I can't see how there's any acceptable explanation for it.
09:30 Rather dangerous is it not if you have to reset a fault and repower the system to see what the fault is?
Just to add 28:00 updating the AFDD does that mean you have to do each one individually as thats going to take an age with a large board , even more with a bad connection? ( no restore to old firmaware if the new one fails)
This is one thing Hager got right. Holding down the button with the device off gives a fault indication of why it's off. And yes, you have to connect to each one individually to update it. They're all standalone.
@@dsesuk So in a board full, how do you know which one you are updating? Maybe that’s why there is a label field. I know you need to press the test button to start, so I guess you go along the board pressing the buttons until the app says 1% loading …..
@@AndyK.1 Yes, you'd have to put it into Bluetooth mode, update, disconnect and move on to the next one.
What is going on with that shaver socket all blackened.
I bought one for a quid from wickes, started buzzing after one day but at least it works
It just looks black in the shit lighting. It's been converted with 4mm banana plugs ready for a future video!
@@dsesuk Ah, I was wondering what that was. I thought 'that's a shaver outlet' but they don't have bananananananananananananananana (sorry never know when to stop with that word..!) sockets 🤔
Very good point regarding firmware revisions on the website
Very much needed. Otherwise, how are we supposed to keep tabs on when an update has been released? How often are they going to release changes? Hager expect us to pop back and check in with prior installations to see if an update is needed! Ridiculous!
I was wondering if you could somehow use the HV from the jacobs ladder.
I did that in the Dud Device video. It won't fool the thing because it's on the other side of a step-up transformer.
Since it seems clear that the Hager AFDD is not for detecting arc faults, perhaps it is for detecting Ark faults? May I suggest that the next test is to build an Ark of Gopherwood, precisely to the specifications laid out in the old testament (rooms inside, 3 decks, covered inside and outside with pitch - the basic Ark spec). You can then hold the Hager AFDD near to the Ark (similar to a non contact tester) and see whether it trips. Then simply change the initial spec (remove pitch etc) and see whether you can generate a trip event. Not sure who would fund this work, but if Hager have managed to produce an Ark fault detection device it could be crucial to the future of humanity in the event of heavy rain or the like.
great vlog David keep up the good work mate
Nah Nah that is unforgiveable, how the hell can they allow that on the market, I always assumed they where tested thoroughly but it looks like its never gone through any actual functionality or stress testing, I just understand why a company would be this reckless, but this is what happens when you get people who have no idea about what they are doing working in engineering or any speciality subject its endemic in the world right now, great vid
I shot a Hager AFDD in a plastic board at a set of student flats installed originally in the 90s. A tad tight but managed to fit without any major issues. I'm a naughty boy indeed, but why would I change a perfectly fine DB for the sake of 1 device?
Why indeed? It's nuts to expect a five-minute swap out job to become a full-on board change just to accommodate one of these friggin' things.
Come on Hager where is the response to this interesting piece of work. Either make a statement detailing why Dave test method is limited or rush around to his house with your box of tricks and record the signature of the Arc. You have to do one or the other to keep some credibility!
Can't see why you'd need to disconnect - maybe they just mean turn the switch off?
And if the switch was off, how would it even know anything was connected?
I think it would have made more sense for the Bluetooth function to also work in the off position so updates could have been applied without having to disconnect fixed loads.
Tenuous but maybe it has to do some form of recalibration with no wiring attached, can't see any good reason for that but who knows.
To reduce the chance of tripping during a software update bricking the device. That or during the update the safety of the device is reduced if it can't perform AFDD or RCD fault monitoring.
@@pradolover I would hope the tripping on the RCD side would be done by traditional passive methods and not software dependant, also seems crap design if the microprocessor looses power on trip when there's still power being supplied, I'd have to watch again (can't be arsed) but doesn't it light up with a trip code on tripping meaning it must still be powered, or was that other models? As it's apparent it can't do AFDD tripping anyway , no real loss of safety there.
@@mfx1 Yeah it's probably more about arse covering than much more. It's probably cheaper to do RCD functions in software with minimal hardware but I have no idea on how these ones work.
Regulators should have stepped in by now to BAN any wireless update of distribution board equipment such as this. It is too critical to safety to encourage manufacturers to shove half designed unfit for purpose products out the door knowing that someone 'qualified' can 'fix' them later by waving their phone around. The ONLY way changes can be allowed must be with a replacement unit. This helps ensure manufacturers actually design and test products properly (not just on their pet dog). And if a manufacturer has not got a product that is fit for purpose then don't bloody sell it yet. (At least Hager have designed it so that you have to physically disconnect something as this increases security against bad actors.)
Hager R&D team need a f**king good kick in the balls basically. If I had one of those arcs in my 20th floor flat and was relying on my AFDD I would not be happy. A product recall is probably more expensive than some bad PR so when one of these fails an insurance company should sue them that might make them sit up.
I'll have to rejig my rig to keep one of these Hager's powered Andy - see if any new firmware updates drop in the coming weeks!
Was that a Hager R&D person I saw buying Lego today ? Hope they remember to include major investment at their afdd test facility in the latest Ian Smith publication in Hager news.
I expect they may have an ADC on the output transformer so it only ativates the afdd when load is over 1000w or so.
The bin tester has a multi kW shower element in it IIRC.
@@pradolover trying to give them the benefit of the doubt!
I've never been able to get any AFDD to operate with loads under 1kW, but the bin tester is two shower elements in series for a load of 2.2kW which ought to get anything fizzing!
@@dsesuk ABB released a brilliant technical guide on the topic.
Dear Mr Savery. Thank you for testing our Hager product. However I would just like to point out your arc test does not mirror our own involving a kite,thunderstorm and long length of copper wire and so not subjecting our device in a real field condition.
Ah - that's where I'm going wrong. I need more lightning!
Hi David, another good video presentation! I am quite keen on Hager, it has been my premium offering to customers for CU changes and what I have in my own home. I have always found their technical team responsive to my enquiries but have yet to install one of their AFDDs or endure some of the issues that may come with that.
It is a shame to see the comparsion you have highlighted between the marketing speil and the reality such as backwards compatibility, obvious spelling mistakes in file names and the ProTools app; and one must question the efficacy of the AFDD when all those other brands operated with your test rig which certainly looks to produce messy series arcs. I would like to see Hager fix the spelling mistakes and would be reassured as to the product if they would show us some footage from their R&D or a certification laboratory showing the AFDD operating under the test conditions for the BS EN standard or otherwise an explanation as to the difference in performance when subjected to these pretty decent 'amatuer' tests.
Personally, I'm somewhat annoyed that despite this video being released on Monday, here we are on Friday and those same spelling mistakes, marketing claims and a lack of a firmware update history page remain. Hager know this video is out, even though they don't engage with me, yet they've done nothing to correct even their schoolboy errors for those viewing it later. You can still go to their website today, at the end of the week this video was released, and verify everything I said remains current, warts an' all. A company who cared would have jumped on the basics on Tuesday because it's easy and it costs them nothing. Hager aren't listening, and the longer they ignore installers, the less sympathy I have for them.
Instructions unclear, nob stuck in rgb AFDD. Please advise
Excellent!!
Carry on the good work
I would suggest that if there is no way of testing then these should not be mandatory until there is.
It’s worrying that you’ve built things that pretty much simulate an arc fault then it should trip. If not then it feels a bit like snake oil.
More sparks there than a sparkler on a bonfire night
MR AFDD IS BACK
AFDD Savo to his friends
Heck, you are on to something regarding the Hager software updates. I guess the customer pays in the end but this is new and not discussed elsewhere that I have heard of. Others brands are likely to follow Hagers lead and sparkies will probably be expected to ensure software is up to date to properly sign off an installation as 'safe'.
FFS need to swap out my double-stack Hager board with a Wylex. By the way I don't think you actually have to disconnect the load during FW update for it to work - it's merely that the "protection" for final circuits is disabled during an update.
From a technical perspective, I wonder if there isn't enough inductance on such a short cable run to the load - not that the others struggle with that. "serie" is a German translation too.
@@sdgelectronics I guess I could try it on a longer lead Steve? Yeah, I saw you'd fitted these yourself. Hager even gave you a 'good video' comment! I don't think I'll be getting one! I imagine the arc protection is off the menu during an update, but I would expect the earth leakage and overload protection to remain in place. They probably advise you disconnect the load to cover their arse, and hey, we installers have nothing better to do with our day so it should be of no inconvenience, right??
Maybe noise from appliances on the circuit could corrupt the firmware load. Switching it off would fix that though
@@dsesuk I might try to play around with one of mine. I can only assume your perfectly resistive load is impossible to detect because it could conceivably be genuinely drawing such a variable current. But again, the others have no issue with this. Some additional inductance or capacitance will give quite a different spectrum on a spectrum analyser looking at current during an arc event (which is effectively what the Hager AFDD is doing - a frequency analysis of the voltage and current.)
How i see it an honest opinion and the company needs to listen so that they can rectify the issues.
Had me little bit… I’m a improver and mainly work on these new build high rise flats/apartments… and their board of choice is Hager…so hopefully there listening to experience people on the frontline and get that problem solve
Hi another problem I can see with afdds is pretty much all brands only go up to forty 40 amps devices so an incomplete range with no 50 amps Afdds or 63 amps afdds avaliable yet which would be good for big electric showers, big car chargers submains lol.
If Hager had faith in their AFDD product they wouldn't need to make provision for firmware updates in the first place, would they?
@philipwardle6820 tale as old as time..... erm, fix it later with software 🤷♂️🫤
Fault arc detection is such a tricky thing that it's really not hard to imagine better ways worked out as time moves on giving both better detection of actual faults and better rejection of false positives. I'm no Hager stooge but at least they have a way to update the firmware. In the extremely small exposure I've had with AFDDs this is the first brand I've seen that offers it at all. The others? Throw the device out and buy a new one.
Don't get me wrong, as an AFDD i'm not backing up Hager at all here, it clearly *doesn't work*. However, anything which is basically a computer with external wireless access (which this is, with bluetooth) you're gonna need an update mechanism as future vulnerabilities in the Bluetooth stack may allow for remote tripping of circuits by attackers etc.
@@metahertzuk Yes, Bluetooth is always going to be vulnerable, expecially if the manufacturer seeks to retain backward compatability to early versions. A more secure protocol for IoT, perhaps inspired by Industry 4.0 best practice, might be better.
@@metahertzukunlikely, there probably is a very limited surface to attack, just some BLE packets fired about. Must be billions of Bluetooth devices out there with no way of updating firmware. Can it even self trip, will it update to an unsigned firmware, hopefully not, even then, does it need a button press to turn the Bluetooth on?
Shouldn’t have cooked the AFDD tester. It’s the only one in the world and need it as a reference 😂
Don't worry Andy, once the glue cooled down and the deformed Lego brick was squished back into shape, it went right back together ready to torture the next AFDD that happens across my way!
Great video as usual David .I like the fact that your are not paid to promote manufacturers kit ,and can be brutally honest in your review .Correct me if I'm wrong , does the efiixx channel charge manufacturers to promote their kit ,and if so how unbiased would they be, if being paid by them ! Can somebody enlighten me with regards efixx ? Thanks ,and keep the videos coming.
My understanding is that eFixx do charge to feature companies, products or services. What vetting process they go through I cannot say.
I'm not a spark but imho any RCBO should have two lights on them one for the "MCB side" and one for the "RCD side", when the RCBO trips, the appropriate light should show which side tripped (ie was it an overcurrent event or an earth leakage event). For an RCBO with AFDD built in as well, there should be a third light to show if it was an arcing event that tripped it.
I personally wouldn't want all that updates and Bluetooth shit in my CU. Isn't there the risk of someone hacking it, fucking around with it and effectively bricking your CU?
The fire potential of these safety devices, its scary, im going back to fusewire!!!!!
Hagar can suck my plums if they think I'm going back to every AFDD fitted, stripping down the board to remove loads so I can spend the day individually updating devices. Invoicing customers for each update would be interesting with the parting gift of explaining I could be back next week, year or regular random visits with a new invoice for each visit. Screw Hagar. A rewireable fuse was more reliable!
Great channel, keep it up 🍻
Loved the childish party popper
Great video. Have you approached Hager for a reaction?
Ahhhh a Davo Savo upload, i think I’ve just jizzed myself.
Great professional electrician framed picture.
Where would we be if it wasn't for intelligent professionals like yourself putting themselves on the line because of the seriousness of their understanding of what constitutes safety of others.
I do tend to focus on words as a counsellor and would to remind those fresh out of university who cannot spell that this is NOT a GAME. Change your mindset before people are hurt.
Wow! It’s a worry that they don’t work. …..and if you are called to a Hager board with an AFDD that you didn’t install, for some other reason (eg to install a circuit on a spare way) would we just install the new circuit or would we be duty bound to check the firmware on the fitted AFDDs.
Where does the responsibility lie?
Remember my amateur efforts may just not be fooling it here, although it's odd that all the other models worked. But the question of liability is a good one especially if you're modifying something on a circuit which has one of these. A new update is in the making right now, so watch this space.
Could be an interesting time for the fly by testers.
Thank the good lord that you beefed up a bit since that 2015 photo!
Some things get better with age.
There is no box on any EICR form for a firmware revision (particularly the IET example, the idiots that mandated these devices)
I wonder if future EICR checklists will have a tickbox for 'Devices checked for up-to-date firmware'. That'll end up being a LIM for most I imagine.
This definitely looks like a cost to benefit calcul for me. They know the product doesn't work, nothing is right about it, it's just less expensive to not caring about the problem. The margins is way more important than the right working of the product or the or the life of people
This is the problem with a product that can't be tested. How on earth do we know these things are working when we take them out of the box. I've not used Hager for awhile and it doesn't look like I'll be using them soon either. How is Nigel? Be nice for him to appear now and then.
Thanks
Right back atcha!
Well as sir Alan Sugar would say ………Hager your 🔥 (fired) quite literally
Anyway thanks for the vid, ill scrub Hager off my price list.
Firmware update Paige: minor bug fixes and performance improvements.
We've made updates to improve the app experience.
New updates are regular release to improve your mobile experience.
Bug fixes.
Bug fixes and performance improvements.
We release updates regularly and are always looking for ways to make the app better.
We've updated our app with bug fixes and changes to improve overall experiences.
Improvements.
Engagement numbers are no rounded to four characters.
We fix the tubes that bring you the videos.
Bug fixes.
Performance improvements.
Several experience improvements and bug fixes.
Thanks for using insert app Name.
I and that is just the ones I didn't get bored of reading through on my app updates. These companies can't even be bothered to see what they're fixing it in the app updates page what's a change log I haven't seen a change log in about 10 years!
I love your cat pat pat
Brilliant
High temp JBWeld or Silicone for the Lego next time.
Lovely cat 👋🐈
I'm glad you appreciate the pussy.
@@dsesuk Meow purrrrrrr 😻
Haaaaaaaaa wicked
you are to hager what andrew bridgen is to the government ,keep up the good work
Andrew Bridgen is a bell end who repeats conspiricy theories as if they were true. David is conducting testing of his own.