I’m surprised that on a 6.0 at the 1000 hp level the T6, especially with the larger downpipe, didn’t make much more power or reduce backpressure noticeably. Good test.
Interesting test as always Richard. I was surprised to see the tighter A/R being the T6 housing. I'd be curious to see the typical 1.32 A/R T6 housing, and maybe the The bigger guy, the 1.58 A/R T6 housing on the same combo. It would be neat to see how much each housing changes the curves while being on the same turbine size. Keep up the good work man!
In conclusion, the turbo won. Could you do a video perhaps showing what different A/R ratios do? It's the one spec of turbochargers that I don't understand. It would be interesting to redo the test, but plumb each bank to the separate inlet on the T6. I wonder how much it would help or, if not even worth it.
You actually made one of best suggestions I've seen. No one ever does turbo testing on A/R ratios or explains them. That's one thing the turbo someone purchases can be correct/perfect size turbo in every way & they order to large of A/R or to even to small it will ruin everthing with Performance the boost reaction, running out of boost, & even life of turbo & parts. A/R can define T4, T6, or Band Clamp which makes huge difference.
I went with the s498 with T6 for my built 413 LS2 Gen 4, I figured it could make 600-650hp on engine and i dont want to put 30-40lbs to get between the 800-1000hp im thinking it wouldn't be too much of a streach to do that without blowing things up
What it really does is give you two options To think about to get to a thousand horsepower I love these kind of test My favorite Testing Channel on RUclips by far Thanks a lot Richard for all the time you put into these videos
Thanks Richard, this was a great comparison! I've often asked myself how much difference there would be from the 1.25 T4 and the 1.10 T6 and you just answered my question and then some! 👍
Hey Richard, could you do a similar test one day with the big Borg Warner s480 , and test covering up 1 side of the turbine inlets. See how much it helps spooling up
would have liked to see this run up at least to 7500rpm plenty of camshaft to do so I think you would start to see a larger separation between the back pressure which is where most people including myself run this type of setup I currently run a vs racing s488 t6 1.32 96/88 turbine also love the videos I learn alot keep them coming
Was this with the BW 83 turbine? Turbine plays a big role in this argument. I'd love to see a future test similar to this where you test different turbine sizes with the same turbine housing to see the difference in response and back pressure vs HP
Great advice and conclusion as always Richard. If we ran these on a chassis dyno maaaaybe we could see a response difference, but at the end of the day, inlet pressure and temperature will determine 95+% of your power if fueling and timing remain constant. Any real difference between the two housings will be where we can make what airflow at what heat. If the boost is the same.... The power will be the same... What would be more fun imo would be to add a third turbo to this comparison, something much smaller with a similar T4 housing, to show a compressor running out of breath. Always nerve racking to raise the boost and see no power increase, just more heat.
Richard, what about us guys that brake boost, or have rolling anti lag..brake boost being more problematic then rolling anti lag. RATL usually will pull timing and then ramp in crazy fast once you de activate with target boost reached....I would think this test would or may be more problematic for smaller displacement engines that absolutely rely on brake boost and RATL ect
Loving these borg videos, do you wring the neck of the s475 in your next video? I would like some low end response and 1000hp from 5.4 4v modular. Thinking its asking to much of the s475 on 98 octane.
I just watched a video on a 3,000hp SR20 using compound turbos. I would love to see you revisit compound turbocharging, just sucks that they don't become beneficial until crazy high boost/ power/ cost numbers.
Yeah, it’s funny because I was running a pulsar 7985 if I remember correctly but it was in a T4 housing, however I have a 5.3 motor that is stroke to a 6 L. I was having back pressure issues because the biggest housing I could go in the T4 was a 1.28 AR. I had to go to a pulsar s480 I believe in T6 housing. Pretty sure that will solve my issue.
The timing helped me more than anything. Other than learning how to argue with myself and win every time 🥸🥸. Thank you again for all your hard work 👏👏👏
Years ago there was a test in Car craft on a vortec 350 with gapless 2nd rings. They actually do really good, like less than 1% when they're broken in. I would like to see a test with a modern set of gapless top rings. Some guys run them on land speed setups, and those guys would roll over their grandmothers for a single horsepower.
@@illreportbackinabit.8514 If you think I was talking about not gaping piston rings I wasn’t I was referring to Total Seal gap less rings which have an overlapping design so I want to know if they work as stated or a gimmick like u groove spark plugs
@@keithmceuen8775 Start listening to the Hidden Horsepower podcast series. Yes it's by Total Seal but the engine builders who swear by them will convince you they are worth power.
I have 2 s turbos, a VS s480 and a FI s485, both w the 96/88 turbine wheel. I also have a t4 1.25 , v band 1.32, and t6.1.32 turbine housings . I ran the s480 w the t4 on my 6.2 and it seemed to work well. On the s485 , I ran the t4 and v band. The t4 was more responsive than the v band , so I'm guessing, since I didn't do any repeatable test on power levels , the v band is freer flowing than the t4 . Good test ! Helped me make sense of my results . I never ran the t6 exhaust because of space restrains in my engine bay, but I would guess it would be the best for max boost w less response down low.
Doesn't supersize me, Cummins boys are making over 800hp on t3's and driving turbos much harder to boot. Turbine size makes a big difference in the diesel world however, something that would be interesting for Rich to test.
Richard who care about psi being same... what about CFM air flow vs hp vs turblow`s man ...lol i had to pester ye much keep up good work be blessed man
92mm turbine wheel it seems from another video, not sure but might be a non Borg wheel, can only find 83/87/96 in their catalogs....F.I. does a 92mm wheel
I believe the timing curve should be more of a 'V' shape, more timing below torque peak, less cylinder filling that needs more timing advance and then more timing near the top of the rev range to lite the fire sooner for complete combustion. Richard what is your opinion on CR vs timing. An author of an engine build article suggested lowering CR (10 to 9:1) to take advantage of running more timing on pump gas. I believe in more CR over timing (within limits, or 10 over 9:1). A higher CR would provide a more efficient combustion, whereas, timing is a bandaid for an inefficient chamber/combustion. What say you?
Was this the 3.2" or 3.4" exducer s4 turbo? I think you don't see much change because the cross section of the turbo is very similar to the area of the t4 so the turbine is the choke point. If this was a bigger turbine like a 3.9" I think you would see a big change going to the t6.
Great content! So my question is since I’m going with a bigger cubic inch, which I’m building a stroked 418 LT/LS street/ strip car it will be 70% street & 30% track-street racing What size T6 turbo and A/R size should I use so it can be the most responsive In your expertise opinion, oh I’m also going twin turbos too. I’m new to this so I’m very curious about what size turbos would be best & the most responsive off the line and driving around with. Get back with me if u can thanks 💪🏾
@@richardholdener1727 I’m trying have at least a thousand rear wheel on the street all day & max power when I wanna turn it up on the track between 1400hp-1700hp …
I had always heard that when you go up in turbine housing size that you drop down one A/R size to stay the same. For example T3 .82 = T4 .63. Looks like you just proved that.
I have an 5.0 coyote i'm going to put an s475 on. It comes with the standard T6 but they make several T4 with different a/r. I'm curious what the standard T6 will do, if it's too big. It's a drag car. Hopefully find out late this summer or next year. I've also seen they make a quick spool valve that works on split housing that kinda mimics a veritable turbine.
Depending on what you have done to the coyote the t6 is probably a better call on a drag car. This is especially true if you have a two stage. If you are not worried about the spool when you are rolling into the throttle from a stop sign and you might make a little more squeeze at the big end.... Some guys have good luck with a spool valve. I have never tried one.
@@timothybayliss6680 vvt delete/locked 2ed gen mustang cams, 2018 manifold, fast tb, holley hp efi, sleeved block, forged bottom end. I'm used to building sbc this is my first coyote. I'm told that 4 valve engines move air like a big block at high rpm so they can handle big turbos as long as you don't care about low speed torque. We'll see. 😁
If the larger turbo flange didn’t make much difference, then the bottleneck is elsewhere. I’d look at fuel. Do you have enough injector and fuel pumps to match? Does your camshaft have enough lift and duration to get that fuel air mix in there? If you can’t get enough fuel with the increased airflow, is the timing backing off to avoid detonation? You only changed the flange and a small length of pipe. Shouldn’t all the piping be upgraded to match?
@@richardholdener1727 As a 50 year professional in the computer and telecommunications industry, I’ve found that as soon as you remove one bottleneck another often appears elsewhere.
As far as I know there are 3 common turbine wheels for the s400 series turbos. There are third party housings but I don't think Borg makes a t4 housing for the biggest turbine wheel unless there is an obscure diesel that has one for commercial engines. I am assuming the t6 has the big turbine wheel, do you know what the turbine wheel was for the t4 turbo? As a reference of comparison, one has a 74mm turbine, one 82mm and the largest an 88mm. Lots of the base t4 units come with the small turbine wheel and I think this is going to mount more of an obstacle to flow than the flange.
Wouldn’t running the same boost levels always mean the same power? I have a 88mm precession and went with the bigger housing they offer and it allowed spool at the line and made a hell of s difference on the top end
There's an Australian RB30 that's making 1500whp with a gt42 shoved into T3 housing. You can flow a shitload thru T3 & T4 housings, the restriction is the turbines they normally use.
Hey Richard what's the ETA date of your " Let's make some noise " turbo kits for LS ? Price ? Availability ? Single ? Twins ? Put me down for 2. Thank you Sir.
@@richardholdener1727 so there's hope...my jedi mind tricks must be working bcuz you said " yet " Use the FORCE Master LS jedi. Please reserve first 2 kits for me. Thank You for all your videos & knowledge.
It looks like in order to take advantage of lower backpressure on an exhaust turbine side, you would have to go to a bigger turbine, not just a bigger housing, as you are funneling everything, ultimately, through the exact same set of turbine blades in this T4 versus T6 test. Yes, I know this can lead to higher polar moment/slower spool.
BAck pressure seems high for a T6 setup. I would be VERY curious what that t6 curve looks like with a set of turbo headers and dual 3" into a 4" entry on the hotside. I suspect the oem exhaust manifolds and y pipe and 3" are the restrictions here and NOT the turbo. AS backpressure looks nearly the same.
SOOOO...!, THE A/R the A= represent the area of the Volute at the tongue which is 105mm The R= represent the radius measured from the center of the turbine axle to the center area of the Volute at the tongue which is 84mm on a T4 in about 96mm on a T6 ....So the{ T4 turbine has a 105mm-Area / 84mm-radius equals 1.25A/R } { T6 turbine has a 105mm-Area / 96 mm radius equals 1.10A/R } SOOO...!,🤔 with that being said I think if you turned the units up to 20 lb of boost the HP output should be the same....!, but wait🤚🙄 wait { Icould be totally wrong }🤨
Richard do you have a comparison video of an identical turbo on both a 4.8 and 6.0 near the 1000hp range showing the difference in back pressure and boost required to hit that power mark?
I would assume more boost would be needed on the 4.8 to hit the same power number as the 6.0. I'd be curious to see if the back pressure would be greater relative to the higher boost pressure required.
@@richardholdener1727 I understand that purpose built is the best option. Just thought it would be neat to see if a 4150DP would work. I have heard of it being done. Was just a thought.
meh.... i don't go for them whistlers or them crammers or any of them forsaken crank position sensors, i'm what they call a retro grouch. if you can't make 800 HP out of a decent big block you're having a problem.... Sure, yeah! You bet there are cars faster than mine but i have ass loads of bottom end torque and all i do is change the oil and wax the car.
Thank you you answered all my questions I want to make about 1000 hp I have a 6.0 I just gapped the rings 26 on top ring & 28 2nd Might go bigger on the gap heard you say you went to 30 thousands gap should I
Richard, you had me confused for a little while with comments you have made in a few vids . You say a cheap turbo will make the same or similar power level at the same boost to a Mac daddy high end turbo. Tell me if I'm ready to graduate ........the boost pressure is a product of the ENGINE and its restriction . 14lbs is 14lbs and will product a very close result in power regardless of turbo quality in the same engine . Here is the part I just figured out and I'm not sure you have explained this part in the vids I've watched so far . The difference in a cheap cast wheel chopstick unit and , say, a new Garrett g42-1450, is what the TURBO is doing to make the said 14lbs . If a test was run to observe wheel speed on the turbo , id bet the cutting edge design would be working less to create the same boost level at the engine . Wouldn't this also explain why some turbos are capable of 1200-1400hp with a 75mm turbine restriction, while others can only muster 800hp with the same size exhaust restriction ? I would also assume the newer , better (?) design would be more responsive IN THE CAR .I doubt the dyno would quantify that trait since it doesn't take the real world dynamics of the car into account. Would you agree ?
@@richardholdener1727 how would we account for the ability of one compressor wheel being able to move more air per rotation ? It would reach the same boost level before it reached the same rotational speed , would it not ? The boost and backpressures would be similar, but the turbo wouldn't be spinning as fast to reach the same level of restriction ( boost ) . If the turbo wasn't required to spin as fast to make the same boost level, one would think it would reach that boost level quicker (be more responsive ). The level of added response would be suspect , but something has result from a more efficient compressor wheel design. I'm not talking about different sized compressor wheels , but longer blade designs utilizing a smaller center to add blade length , thinner lighter blades , etc. A compressor wheel sensor in a apples to apples test between two turbos , one with a basic cast wheel and one with a trick billet wheel , to see if the boost/backpressure was reached at the same turbo rpm. Otherwise , how would you account for two turbos w the same basic specs , compressor and turbine inducer/ exducer , turbine footprint and AR having drastically different HP potential . It has to be the effect of different efficiencies from the design. I doubt these are things a dyno can pick up on very well because much of these traits would be happening as you load the dyno at the beginning of the pull . I whole heartedly agree that 14 lbs is 14 lbs . I just can't wrap my head around 2 different wheel designs reaching that boost at the same rotational speed . There has to be an explanation for generations of turbos being rated at progressively higher outputs while staying in the overall turbo footprint .
During the conclusion I got a little confused lol Would it be fine to run T4 on a 6.0 (lq4) staying under 1,000hp? My build had been in standby because I just don't know haha
Would like to see race manifold vs. Log style manifold(Hooker setup). Seen the comparison you did. Log style had a lot of back pressure. Can the back pressure be cured with different camshaft or a/r housing?
@Richard Holdener i've got an 04 GTO, and I am going to turbo it. My question involves the block and crank. It has the aluminum block 5.7L, and i've read that the aluminum block starts to get some serious torsional stress around the 1000 hp mark. What are your thoughts on building off of the 5.7L aluminum block using the stock crank (replacing the pistons and rods) to get around 9.0 sec quarter mile time? am I going down a road I don't want? It's much easier to keep my block than to say switch over to an iron block LQ4, and do the same. What do you think the reliable HP mark is with the aluminum block? I drive it like I stole it, so she gets beat on pretty hard. I do have a dry sump to keep things oiled up, but I don't want to spend the money on a timebomb. Do you think the aluminum block is worth keeping or should I just sell it and get an LQ4 and build that up?
i just blew up my turbo LS1. block is crap, i put a rod through the block. thats 4-5 months of drag racing on e85 aswell. Get an iron block or gen 4 block. Im going LSA now.
It'll work great keep it . I've seen guys run them to 24 lb of boost With 12 degrees timing But 16 lb of boost E85 with 18 to 21 degrees of timing will get you 800 Tire . Don't go over 16 Pounds for safety . Change the rods , Pistons , camshaft , Springs , Fuel pumps , 210 lb injectors
I have an lq9 running a t4 turbo, and have recently found very small and few aluminum shards in my oil filter. I have never opened the motor to check the ring Gap, and the turbo has never boosted more than 10 lb as far as I know. I'm thinking I might be losing some head material, but is there a chance it could be general wear within the head, as it is a 128,000 mi motor?
@@richardholdener1727 as far as I can tell it isn't magnetic, and it is very shinny, like aluminum. We're talking sizes of about the head of a fine ball tip pen, but flakes, not chunks.
What if the cubic inches was even bigger more like a 502 ? Lol I think my friend might got too small turbos . They just look small idk wth they are but he pump gas street car . Hope they work 🤞
Depends on the goals. Roughly speaking you size the cold side for the power goals and the hot side for the engine displacement relative to the goal. If your engine makes 300hp NA and you want to make 500hp, then you buy a turbo that can flow (compressor, cold side) 500-600 hp worth of air, or maybe 700 if you want some reserve capacity to grow in to. But if that's a 6 liter 300hp engine the. Get the larger turbine housing (hot side) offered for the turbo. If it's a 2.4 liter screamer making 300hp NA then you want the smaller turbo housing offered for that turbo.
@@richardholdener1727 that’s unfortunately for me. Do you have a Facebook page do you to work for a customers or just for teaching purpose thanks for putting all this info out there for us you’re the man
I’m surprised that on a 6.0 at the 1000 hp level the T6, especially with the larger downpipe, didn’t make much more power or reduce backpressure noticeably. Good test.
He had enough of dumb comments so he argued with himself and now everything is good
I'm done taking smart alec comments from myself!
@@richardholdener1727 the tactic actually works (( SOUPER Richie preventive disclaimer))
Interesting test as always Richard. I was surprised to see the tighter A/R being the T6 housing. I'd be curious to see the typical 1.32 A/R T6 housing, and maybe the The bigger guy, the 1.58 A/R T6 housing on the same combo. It would be neat to see how much each housing changes the curves while being on the same turbine size.
Keep up the good work man!
In conclusion, the turbo won. Could you do a video perhaps showing what different A/R ratios do? It's the one spec of turbochargers that I don't understand. It would be interesting to redo the test, but plumb each bank to the separate inlet on the T6. I wonder how much it would help or, if not even worth it.
You actually made one of best suggestions I've seen. No one ever does turbo testing on A/R ratios or explains them. That's one thing the turbo someone purchases can be correct/perfect size turbo in every way & they order to large of A/R or to even to small it will ruin everthing with Performance the boost reaction, running out of boost, & even life of turbo & parts. A/R can define T4, T6, or Band Clamp which makes huge difference.
I went with the s498 with T6 for my built 413 LS2 Gen 4, I figured it could make 600-650hp on engine and i dont want to put 30-40lbs to get between the 800-1000hp im thinking it wouldn't be too much of a streach to do that without blowing things up
What it really does is give you two options To think about to get to a thousand horsepower I love these kind of test My favorite Testing Channel on RUclips by far Thanks a lot Richard for all the time you put into these videos
Great point!
90% of comments resolved with self argument 🤣
Thanks Richard, this was a great comparison! I've often asked myself how much difference there would be from the 1.25 T4 and the 1.10 T6 and you just answered my question and then some! 👍
Definitely this. Esp once he nailed the back pressure tradeoff
Should've used the 1.32 T6
Given the same turbine wheel. The results aren't too surprising.
The shiny housing obviously made more power.
Shiny, pretty.
Needs flames tho
It would be cool to see a turbine vs compressor size test. Like a S475 vs a S480 and a S475 with the bigger (like 88x96) vs smaller turbine wheel
Hey Richard, could you do a similar test one day with the big Borg Warner s480 , and test covering up 1 side of the turbine inlets. See how much it helps spooling up
would have liked to see this run up at least to 7500rpm plenty of camshaft to do so I think you would start to see a larger separation between the back pressure which is where most people including myself run this type of setup I currently run a vs racing s488 t6 1.32 96/88 turbine also love the videos I learn alot keep them coming
Good thing the cam knows whether it's single or twin turboed
I think the single turbo cam is just more jealous, especially of the mirror image twin turbo cam.
The cam knows best, LOL
All cams are turbo cams.
Which turbine wheel 87mm? 83mm? Would be cool to see results with different sized turbine wheels as well. Even the 96mm which is a dirt cheap charger.
Was this with the BW 83 turbine?
Turbine plays a big role in this argument.
I'd love to see a future test similar to this where you test different turbine sizes with the same turbine housing to see the difference in response and back pressure vs HP
This makes me feel better about getting a s480 in a T4 configuration.
Great advice and conclusion as always Richard. If we ran these on a chassis dyno maaaaybe we could see a response difference, but at the end of the day, inlet pressure and temperature will determine 95+% of your power if fueling and timing remain constant. Any real difference between the two housings will be where we can make what airflow at what heat. If the boost is the same.... The power will be the same...
What would be more fun imo would be to add a third turbo to this comparison, something much smaller with a similar T4 housing, to show a compressor running out of breath. Always nerve racking to raise the boost and see no power increase, just more heat.
Thank you for the timing explination and graphs!. I was also surprised the t6 was basically the same as the t4.
Richard, what about us guys that brake boost, or have rolling anti lag..brake boost being more problematic then rolling anti lag. RATL usually will pull timing and then ramp in crazy fast once you de activate with target boost reached....I would think this test would or may be more problematic for smaller displacement engines that absolutely rely on brake boost and RATL ect
Loving these borg videos, do you wring the neck of the s475 in your next video? I would like some low end response and 1000hp from 5.4 4v modular. Thinking its asking to much of the s475 on 98 octane.
This was an awesome test! Thank you Richard!
Very welcome
I just watched a video on a 3,000hp SR20 using compound turbos. I would love to see you revisit compound turbocharging, just sucks that they don't become beneficial until crazy high boost/ power/ cost numbers.
I liked right after the self argument because it was funny
Me too. Hahaha why dont you mind your own Business
Yup 👍
Yeah, it’s funny because I was running a pulsar 7985 if I remember correctly but it was in a T4 housing, however I have a 5.3 motor that is stroke to a 6 L. I was having back pressure issues because the biggest housing I could go in the T4 was a 1.28 AR. I had to go to a pulsar s480 I believe in T6 housing. Pretty sure that will solve my issue.
at what powe level
The timing helped me more than anything. Other than learning how to argue with myself and win every time 🥸🥸. Thank you again for all your hard work 👏👏👏
Nice little bonus on the timing testing, thanks for another great video!!
Could you test the gap less piston rings to see how much difference they actually make on blow by
Why don't you do it?
Years ago there was a test in Car craft on a vortec 350 with gapless 2nd rings. They actually do really good, like less than 1% when they're broken in.
I would like to see a test with a modern set of gapless top rings. Some guys run them on land speed setups, and those guys would roll over their grandmothers for a single horsepower.
@@illreportbackinabit.8514 If you think I was talking about not gaping piston rings I wasn’t I was referring to Total Seal gap less rings which have an overlapping design so I want to know if they work as stated or a gimmick like u groove spark plugs
@@keithmceuen8775 Start listening to the Hidden Horsepower podcast series. Yes it's by Total Seal but the engine builders who swear by them will convince you they are worth power.
Lol I love the back and forth in the beginning , great work Sensei 😄
Thanks 😆
I have 2 s turbos, a VS s480 and a FI s485, both w the 96/88 turbine wheel. I also have a t4 1.25 , v band 1.32, and t6.1.32 turbine housings . I ran the s480 w the t4 on my 6.2 and it seemed to work well. On the s485 , I ran the t4 and v band. The t4 was more responsive than the v band , so I'm guessing, since I didn't do any repeatable test on power levels , the v band is freer flowing than the t4 .
Good test ! Helped me make sense of my results .
I never ran the t6 exhaust because of space restrains in my engine bay, but I would guess it would be the best for max boost w less response down low.
Nice, I'm getting ready to run a t6 1.32 in my cam only 6.2. When did the turbo start building boost? Mines in a tow vehicle
That argument with yourself was great
Doesn't supersize me, Cummins boys are making over 800hp on t3's and driving turbos much harder to boot. Turbine size makes a big difference in the diesel world however, something that would be interesting for Rich to test.
Richard who care about psi being same... what about CFM air flow vs hp vs turblow`s man ...lol i had to pester ye much keep up good work be blessed man
92mm turbine wheel it seems from another video, not sure but might be a non Borg wheel, can only find 83/87/96 in their catalogs....F.I. does a 92mm wheel
I believe the timing curve should be more of a 'V' shape, more timing below torque peak, less cylinder filling that needs more timing advance and then more timing near the top of the rev range to lite the fire sooner for complete combustion.
Richard what is your opinion on CR vs timing. An author of an engine build article suggested lowering CR (10 to 9:1) to take advantage of running more timing on pump gas. I believe in more CR over timing (within limits, or 10 over 9:1). A higher CR would provide a more efficient combustion, whereas, timing is a bandaid for an inefficient chamber/combustion. What say you?
THE COMPRESSION/TIMING IS OCTANE LIMITED-IT'S NOT ONE OR THE OTHER
I’d like to see you run the 96x88 turbine with the 1.15 housing
Was this the 3.2" or 3.4" exducer s4 turbo? I think you don't see much change because the cross section of the turbo is very similar to the area of the t4 so the turbine is the choke point. If this was a bigger turbine like a 3.9" I think you would see a big change going to the t6.
Great content! So my question is since I’m going with a bigger cubic inch, which I’m building a stroked 418 LT/LS street/ strip car it will be 70% street &
30% track-street racing
What size T6 turbo and A/R size should I use so it can be the most responsive In your expertise opinion, oh I’m also going twin turbos too. I’m new to this so I’m very curious about what size turbos would be best & the most responsive off the line and driving around with. Get back with me if u can thanks 💪🏾
what power level?
@@richardholdener1727 I’m trying have at least a thousand rear wheel on the street all day & max power when I wanna turn it up on the track between 1400hp-1700hp …
I had always heard that when you go up in turbine housing size that you drop down one A/R size to stay the same. For example T3 .82 = T4 .63. Looks like you just proved that.
Awesome tests as always, debunk gapless rings with boost next ?
I have an 5.0 coyote i'm going to put an s475 on. It comes with the standard T6 but they make several T4 with different a/r. I'm curious what the standard T6 will do, if it's too big. It's a drag car. Hopefully find out late this summer or next year. I've also seen they make a quick spool valve that works on split housing that kinda mimics a veritable turbine.
Depending on what you have done to the coyote the t6 is probably a better call on a drag car. This is especially true if you have a two stage. If you are not worried about the spool when you are rolling into the throttle from a stop sign and you might make a little more squeeze at the big end....
Some guys have good luck with a spool valve. I have never tried one.
@@timothybayliss6680
vvt delete/locked 2ed gen mustang cams, 2018 manifold, fast tb, holley hp efi, sleeved block, forged bottom end. I'm used to building sbc this is my first coyote. I'm told that 4 valve engines move air like a big block at high rpm so they can handle big turbos as long as you don't care about low speed torque. We'll see. 😁
It looks like they both are very close as far as power goes but how much response (lag) do you give up down low with the larger housing ?
If the larger turbo flange didn’t make much difference, then the bottleneck is elsewhere. I’d look at fuel. Do you have enough injector and fuel pumps to match? Does your camshaft have enough lift and duration to get that fuel air mix in there? If you can’t get enough fuel with the increased airflow, is the timing backing off to avoid detonation? You only changed the flange and a small length of pipe. Shouldn’t all the piping be upgraded to match?
YOU ARE LOOKING IN THE WORNG PLACE FOR THE ANSWER
@@richardholdener1727 As a 50 year professional in the computer and telecommunications industry, I’ve found that as soon as you remove one bottleneck another often appears elsewhere.
As far as I know there are 3 common turbine wheels for the s400 series turbos. There are third party housings but I don't think Borg makes a t4 housing for the biggest turbine wheel unless there is an obscure diesel that has one for commercial engines. I am assuming the t6 has the big turbine wheel, do you know what the turbine wheel was for the t4 turbo?
As a reference of comparison, one has a 74mm turbine, one 82mm and the largest an 88mm. Lots of the base t4 units come with the small turbine wheel and I think this is going to mount more of an obstacle to flow than the flange.
THE TURBINE WHEEL WAS NOT CHANGED-JUST THE HOUSING
Wouldn’t running the same boost levels always mean the same power?
I have a 88mm precession and went with the bigger housing they offer and it allowed spool at the line and made a hell of s difference on the top end
Awesome you just saved me 400 bux going with a vsr billet 80mm t4 vs the billet 80mm t6.
The Question is: is the additional cost for a T4 housing on a BWS400 justifiable
Depends if you want to get the small 83mm (inducer) exhuast wheel , you have to go for the T4 I believe.
And the t4 takes up less room under the hood.
There's an Australian RB30 that's making 1500whp with a gt42 shoved into T3 housing. You can flow a shitload thru T3 & T4 housings, the restriction is the turbines they normally use.
1500 hp through a t3 hot side?
You should definitely do a 4.8, 5.3 pt7675 with stock heads!!
Last week I argued with my self!!! Ended up with a black eye!!!!!!
You need a restraining order
Did ya fight back, or take it like a wuss? 🤣
@@donellmuniz590 I am old : wuss of course!
@@Miguelspl150 no : can't afford a lawyer.
@@brucekultgen132 😂
Hey Richard what's the ETA date of
your " Let's make some noise " turbo
kits for LS ? Price ? Availability ?
Single ? Twins ? Put me down for
2. Thank you Sir.
no kits......yet
@@richardholdener1727 so there's hope...my jedi mind tricks must be
working bcuz you said " yet "
Use the FORCE Master LS jedi.
Please reserve first 2 kits for me.
Thank You for all your videos & knowledge.
You should do "big bang" on all the Hemi's!!!
It looks like in order to take advantage of lower backpressure on an exhaust turbine side, you would have to go to a bigger turbine, not just a bigger housing, as you are funneling everything, ultimately, through the exact same set of turbine blades in this T4 versus T6 test.
Yes, I know this can lead to higher polar moment/slower spool.
Great video Richard! Thank you. I love these turbo comparisons
Love your videos. Learned alot from your content.
Glad to hear it!
BAck pressure seems high for a T6 setup. I would be VERY curious what that t6 curve looks like with a set of turbo headers and dual 3" into a 4" entry on the hotside. I suspect the oem exhaust manifolds and y pipe and 3" are the restrictions here and NOT the turbo. AS backpressure looks nearly the same.
its not that
If you already tested this then i look forward too seeing the data :)
Id also be curious too see the power/backpressure curve with anither 3-400hp in the mix.
Hilariously incorrect 😆
SOOOO...!, THE A/R the A= represent the area of the Volute at the tongue which is 105mm
The R= represent the radius measured from the center of the turbine axle to the center area of the Volute at the tongue which is 84mm on a T4 in about 96mm on a T6 ....So the{ T4 turbine has a 105mm-Area / 84mm-radius equals 1.25A/R }
{ T6 turbine has a 105mm-Area / 96 mm radius equals 1.10A/R } SOOO...!,🤔 with that being said I think if you turned the units up to 20 lb of boost the HP output should be the same....!, but wait🤚🙄 wait { Icould be totally wrong }🤨
Was this the 83mm turbine?
Id like to see the same with a rear mounted turbo !
I did not expect those results. Did they use identical turbine wheels?
FYI twin scrolls have no benefit on a crossplane V8, single or twins.
SAME TURBO-JUST SWAPPED THE HOUSING
Timing timing timing.. Now there's a debate!
More timing less boost, more boost less timing.. Ah now let's throw compression in there 😂
Richard do you have a comparison video of an identical turbo on both a 4.8 and 6.0 near the 1000hp range showing the difference in back pressure and boost required to hit that power mark?
I would assume more boost would be needed on the 4.8 to hit the same power number as the 6.0. I'd be curious to see if the back pressure would be greater relative to the higher boost pressure required.
it would take a lot more boost on the 4.8l
Performance observations make sense. Richard on Richard argument less so...
What's the chance you would do a blow thru carb test? More specifically, a modified 4150 vs purpose built blow thru.
we normally run a CSU
@@richardholdener1727 I understand that purpose built is the best option. Just thought it would be neat to see if a 4150DP would work. I have heard of it being done. Was just a thought.
Richard that was great, you crack me up.
Can you test the twin scroll valve for anti lag
meh.... i don't go for them whistlers or them crammers or any of them forsaken crank position sensors, i'm what they call a retro grouch. if you can't make 800 HP out of a decent big block you're having a problem.... Sure, yeah! You bet there are cars faster than mine but i have ass loads of bottom end torque and all i do is change the oil and wax the car.
Thank you you answered all my questions I want to make about 1000 hp I have a 6.0 I just gapped the rings 26 on top ring & 28 2nd
Might go bigger on the gap heard you say you went to 30 thousands gap should I
YOU WILL BE FINE
Was the t6 1.25 and t4 1.10 or vice versa
t6 was 1.10
Richard, you had me confused for a little while with comments you have made in a few vids . You say a cheap turbo will make the same or similar power level at the same boost to a Mac daddy high end turbo.
Tell me if I'm ready to graduate ........the boost pressure is a product of the ENGINE and its restriction . 14lbs is 14lbs and will product a very close result in power regardless of turbo quality in the same engine .
Here is the part I just figured out and I'm not sure you have explained this part in the vids I've watched so far . The difference in a cheap cast wheel chopstick unit and , say, a new Garrett g42-1450, is what the TURBO is doing to make the said 14lbs . If a test was run to observe wheel speed on the turbo , id bet the cutting edge design would be working less to create the same boost level at the engine . Wouldn't this also explain why some turbos are capable of 1200-1400hp with a 75mm turbine restriction, while others can only muster 800hp with the same size exhaust restriction ? I would also assume the newer , better (?) design would be more responsive IN THE CAR .I doubt the dyno would quantify that trait since it doesn't take the real world dynamics of the car into account.
Would you agree ?
ASK YOURSELF IF BOTH TURBOS CAN SUPPORT THE SAME BOOST LEVEL WITH THE SAME NA POWER LEVEL, AND IF THEY HAVE THE SAME BACK PRESSURE
@@richardholdener1727 how would we account for the ability of one compressor wheel being able to move more air per rotation ? It would reach the same boost level before it reached the same rotational speed , would it not ? The boost and backpressures would be similar, but the turbo wouldn't be spinning as fast to reach the same level of restriction ( boost ) . If the turbo wasn't required to spin as fast to make the same boost level, one would think it would reach that boost level quicker (be more responsive ). The level of added response would be suspect , but something has result from a more efficient compressor wheel design. I'm not talking about different sized compressor wheels , but longer blade designs utilizing a smaller center to add blade length , thinner lighter blades , etc.
A compressor wheel sensor in a apples to apples test between two turbos , one with a basic cast wheel and one with a trick billet wheel , to see if the boost/backpressure was reached at the same turbo rpm. Otherwise , how would you account for two turbos w the same basic specs , compressor and turbine inducer/ exducer , turbine footprint and AR having drastically different HP potential . It has to be the effect of different efficiencies from the design. I doubt these are things a dyno can pick up on very well because much of these traits would be happening as you load the dyno at the beginning of the pull .
I whole heartedly agree that 14 lbs is 14 lbs . I just can't wrap my head around 2 different wheel designs reaching that boost at the same rotational speed . There has to be an explanation for generations of turbos being rated at progressively higher outputs while staying in the overall turbo footprint .
During the conclusion I got a little confused lol Would it be fine to run T4 on a 6.0 (lq4) staying under 1,000hp? My build had been in standby because I just don't know haha
Probably around 700-900hp
yes, we have run near 1000 hp on a t4
Would like to see race manifold vs. Log style manifold(Hooker setup). Seen the comparison you did. Log style had a lot of back pressure. Can the back pressure be cured with different camshaft or a/r housing?
THE HOOKER MANIFOLD IS MORE RESTRICTIVE BECAUSE OF THE MERGE (NOT BECAUSE IT'S A LOG STYLE)
@Richard Holdener i've got an 04 GTO, and I am going to turbo it. My question involves the block and crank. It has the aluminum block 5.7L, and i've read that the aluminum block starts to get some serious torsional stress around the 1000 hp mark. What are your thoughts on building off of the 5.7L aluminum block using the stock crank (replacing the pistons and rods) to get around 9.0 sec quarter mile time? am I going down a road I don't want? It's much easier to keep my block than to say switch over to an iron block LQ4, and do the same. What do you think the reliable HP mark is with the aluminum block?
I drive it like I stole it, so she gets beat on pretty hard. I do have a dry sump to keep things oiled up, but I don't want to spend the money on a timebomb. Do you think the aluminum block is worth keeping or should I just sell it and get an LQ4 and build that up?
i just blew up my turbo LS1. block is crap, i put a rod through the block. thats 4-5 months of drag racing on e85 aswell. Get an iron block or gen 4 block. Im going LSA now.
we don't run over 1000 hp on alum ls1 blocks-cheap to get a 5.3l iron block
It'll work great keep it . I've seen guys run them to 24 lb of boost With 12 degrees timing But 16 lb of boost E85 with 18 to 21 degrees of timing will get you 800 Tire . Don't go over 16 Pounds for safety . Change the rods , Pistons , camshaft , Springs , Fuel pumps , 210 lb injectors
@@richardholdener1727 thank you for your info. I think if I'm switching over blocks I will prob go ahead and get the 6.0L block.
keep testing those turbos !
Would a built 6.0 lq4 with t6 s480 turbo with 1.10 are be a good set up
What about a s475 t6 1.32 Ar on a 370ci richard?
The self arguing at the beginning was hilarious 😆 saves the need for some of the comments..
I have an lq9 running a t4 turbo, and have recently found very small and few aluminum shards in my oil filter. I have never opened the motor to check the ring Gap, and the turbo has never boosted more than 10 lb as far as I know. I'm thinking I might be losing some head material, but is there a chance it could be general wear within the head, as it is a 128,000 mi motor?
is it bearing material
@@richardholdener1727 as far as I can tell it isn't magnetic, and it is very shinny, like aluminum. We're talking sizes of about the head of a fine ball tip pen, but flakes, not chunks.
What if the cubic inches was even bigger more like a 502 ? Lol
I think my friend might got too small turbos . They just look small idk wth they are but he pump gas street car . Hope they work 🤞
Depends on the goals. Roughly speaking you size the cold side for the power goals and the hot side for the engine displacement relative to the goal. If your engine makes 300hp NA and you want to make 500hp, then you buy a turbo that can flow (compressor, cold side) 500-600 hp worth of air, or maybe 700 if you want some reserve capacity to grow in to. But if that's a 6 liter 300hp engine the. Get the larger turbine housing (hot side) offered for the turbo. If it's a 2.4 liter screamer making 300hp NA then you want the smaller turbo housing offered for that turbo.
The self argument made me immediately like this video. 😂😂😂
thnx
Do you know anyone that makes custom headers I keep cracking headers with my turbo
What’s the difference when you turn the boost up??
Now this is the test I wanted to see... Watching...
What turbine ??
Good info... thank you.
Can someone explain what the a/r is?
10/10 Comedy
10/10 Knowledge
where is the 1/1 from the Russian Judge?
@@richardholdener1727 Pretty sure there’s no communist here sir!!!
YES. PERFECT TIMING
Can an oil return from the turbo be run to a valve cover instead of the oil pan?
Needs to go downhill.
only with a pump
I've been going through withdrawals Richard where have you been? 😅
Silver is propaganda. None of us are buying it. $GME.
Gullom. !!!! Gullom !!!! Richard!!!! Richard!!!!! No precious? Boost is the love of your dyno test. Lol. Funny 😆 Richard. 😁
Great video sir
Do you do remote tuning ?
no sir
@@richardholdener1727 that’s unfortunately for me. Do you have a Facebook page do you to work for a customers or just for teaching purpose thanks for putting all this info out there for us you’re the man
Lol the intro cracked me up
I would assume that neither one of these is in their efficiency range either.
you spelled both wrong
@@richardholdener1727 really? I figured something of this size would be happiest around 20psi or so... Guess I'll have to look at the maps 🤣
Got boost?
You are such a nut, Richard, lol.
87octane with water /methanol testing on boost???
no thnx
Thank you!!!