Khatra - Speed Comparison
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- Non scientific comparison :)
Not about top speed, Raptor is capable of more :)
Only for comparison purpose
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Armin Hirmer
@ Hames Sensi
148A Vjal Kottoner
Fgura FGR1385
Malta
One thing that I think could be interesting is to test the arrow speed at a distance further away from the bow than just a few meters. Assuming khatra reduces the contact between bow and arrow during the release, even with an overspined arrow, it should result in cleaner, less wobbly flight. With less energy loss to arrow wobble during flight I would expect the benefits could be greater if measured at 20 or 30 meters. Would you be interested in testing this hypothesis?
Not sure about that, buy I can test next time :)
Very nice test. Very interesting results as well, Thank you very much!
Awesome Comparison. Thanks for this video Mr. Armin Great day to all in Malta.😀
This is a nice video comparison! Very well done!
I've been learning from you for a long time now. And I'm very excited to know that down khatra is the fastest.
I have experimented with all khatra techniques you have shown in the last years. The "down", or "forward" khatra is not only the most efficient but, at least for me, it is also the most accurate. Not sure why, but I always experience a considerable drop in my accuracy when trying side khatra. Probably because of the horizontal movement of the bow, that if made a millisecond out of timing with the arrow release, the effect in the arrow trajectory will be significant, especially for medium to long range shooting. The vertical movement of the bow, when performing forward Khatra seems to not suffer from this effect, hence the better and more consistent accuracy.
I have also tried the string twist technique you teach, but somehow I just can't figure it out. It seems to actually work, for dealing with the archer's paradox, the arrows do fly "straight", but nothing much better than just doing Khatra already achieves. However, it decreases my accuracy greatly, even more than when trying sideways khatra. Maybe the fact that I shoot with thumb ring has something to do with it ( I use 75 lb bow, it's not healthy to shoot for a long time without protection).
Love your videos, best regards from Brazil.
Lucas Atira em que Estado? E qual arco se me permite
@@fdel7032 Opa! Sou de SP, e vc?
Meu arco é um Qinghai
It's definitely the most consistent out of all of them, but it could be that he practices this technique more often. Either way it seems your experience and his line up so thank you for your input
Great video. Thank you for your work.
I thought that it would be faster. Seeing actual results is reassuring. 👍
Thanks for sharing. Perhaps you may try the experiment again another day but the other way round (shooting side+down+string twist first, and shooting no khatra at last) to minimize the effect of diminishing in strength.
Excellent tutorial the comparison shows that different types of khatra can be used in different situations for speed and consistent shot strength. I would like to see this same comparison based on penetration. I think that would be very useful also. Thank you for another great video to get your mind thinking.
good idea, I will think about it :)
you have 1 great arrow in the quiver :) mark the arrows 1 to 6 , allways do the same sequence to ensure arrow difference is not an effect.
well, I did it my way and it tells me enough :)
You always inspire me to get back out and shoot which is especially nice during this pandemic.
I personally do the side khatra. I get pretty good accuracy than without a khatra. I will be practising the down+side khatra when the public range is open again. No "Tszoo"? Next test should be group size at various distance with speed comparison. That would be nice to see. Vielen danke für die Testergebnisse.
Just starting the twist. I am not quite getting it all together as yet. But I,m getting more consistant. Thanks to your videos.
👌👍
I love your videos and saying that i had watched a prior video of you showing how to draw back using with a slight twist/bend in the string , and i have to say i had tried it and the results were nothing short of unbelievable.... my arrow not only seemed to launch itself but with a unseen amount of more power and accuracy..thank you very much for these videos.
Welcome :) thanks for watching
Thank you sir but I Guest before you did the results😁👍🏼👍🏼
Thank you
Thanks for these shorter but still very informative videos.. ^^.
Never thought that.
Very informative comparison and have shared this with club members. Of course, the results are peculiar to Mr. Hirmer but now, with measured results... Asiatic bow archers will have deep thoughts about this. Thank you. 🙏
Great work Armin! I am sure you very pleasant for you too making this video! wonder how it look for me. I try to figure a way without video. tanks also for inspiring..
Nice 😁
Thanks fo your tips about khatra👍👍👍👍
Armin, could you re-analyze this video? I cannot be sure, but i think i see anchor point for no kathra at least 1 inch closer to the bow.
Yeah there is soon some new stuff coming
I'll take down Katra for three please. Stance vertical and horizontal in balance with energy flow at Maximum. In the zone 5X5.
The most inconsistent was the torque, and I think that is because if you try to do it "consciously" you won't be as precise, as if you just let it happen. Your body knows (and learns) better than your mind. I always do this slightly "happening" side khatra with my bow, because it is a long and heavy one and you can't tilt it forward that fast...
Always not easy with running camera :) at least for me
Interesting test. Thank you @Armin.
Is there any logic reason why down khatra is fastest?
no idea
Yes. Your draw lenght gets longer so it increses the power stroke, the distance and compression in the shoulder and the lenght of the bow arm is flexible, lowering the wrist angle can ad lenght.
@Tim Berg if you place the arrow high on the string the power stroke is reduced as, the whole point of using a thumb release is either to pinch the arrow in place or reduce the string pinch from using short bows. Also the string does not travel in a perfect triangel so you want the arrow to pass the middel of the bow where there are less angels. But if yoy look at the arrow pass its in most bows abow the middel so the forward khatra movement might help direct the string occilation down towards the middel, but in slow mo the arrow has left the string be for the khatra motion
@@mortenjacobsen5673 Lowering the wrist is not part of side khatra, but okay...
Also, you seem to be contradicting yourself in the next comment. If lowering the wrist extends the draw, how is that the arrow has left the bow before the khatra motion? The motion itself initiates the release. Any subsequent movement is just momentum. A byproduct of khatra.
You also forget the fact that the motion itself creates better clearence for the arrow. It does not wrap around the bow, it does not slap the bow, thus it does not lose any power uppon release. Meaning, more speed.
@@gizmonomono the back half of the arrow is stil on the string if you have a long arrow and a slow bow. Show me video proof where newton 3rd law dont apply. Put flower on your riser and film what happens
Interesting viewing.
Another great video you are making my lock down in the UK a lot more interesting.
One quick question if you don't mind, if you could only keep one of your bows which would it be 😊 always a different question to answer
as of right now I shoot mostly the Raptor by Simons Bowcompany :)
I shall have to check it out to see what could be the next inline after I have experience with a starter bow for thumb release.
Very clear table
Any chance you could include the make and model of bow(s) you are using in the video, in the text description of your videos? I love your videos!
I get similar results. about 8 percent. and i am not good at it. I found this accidentally and called it erroneously snap shooting.
Very interesting
i guess the only issue is that not using exactly same arrows. just pointing out for the sake of scientific method.
close enough for me as it is :)
Have you ever tried shooting two arrows at once? Can it be useful?When trying I usually have results changing in every shot
yes, up to 6 arrows, just makes no sense :)
@@ArminHirmer I do shot 2 arrows with Lars style, our online contest is based on shoting 1 target from 2 distances and you always have chance to shot once from each position, if you load to you have 2 hits and more points:)
Ive tried it
Its a fun trick to do and you can get fairly accurate
But you have far less control with 2 arrows and they'll only fly half as fast/far.
Or rather the bow strength is divided by however many arrows are on the string.
Very interesting, so with khatra (properly) applied, the string pushes further the arrow increasing the speed by using momentum ? Great video as always Master Armin. Thank you so much!
I suspect it has as much to do with removing the bow and hand from contact with the arrow as early as possible, reducing energy lost through friction or even an arrow strike against the bow.
@@PXCharon could help speed as well i guess, good point
No, there is somthing called brace hight, so the power stroke is set but changes with human error, slow motion fotage and you can Paus this video and se the arrow has left the string before any khatra motion, hence the increase how ever so sight its within the variation of a release,must be from somthing else.
@@mortenjacobsen5673 Do you have any experience performing khatra? the straight arrow flight regardless of arrow spine and the increased speed all suggest decreased friction between the bow and the arrow shaft. The bow doesn't need to move much to make a difference in friction, the amount you need to move before the arrow clears would be a couple of mm and you wouldn't be able to detect that in this video; it doesn't have high enough frame rate or resolution to make that assessment.
@@colinrobertson7580 yes and i did not get straight flight using the same bow and single arrow all got diffrent result left and right, getting the bow away does not matter as the Newtonian reaction is decided regardles of the khatra, the release decide what force the dynamic spine pushes or does not push against the riser
., speed is relative to the draw lenght, the release wil always have variable friction. You can find slow motion video of arrows passion well before the khatra, i also have hyper mobile elbow so once the compression is gone the joint turms natural so neef to worry about khatra, its natural energi Flow if your forcing the khatra what is the point? Style? In arab archery they knew how spine worked so the science and observstions and trails does not support khatra if it did olympic archers probably wont spend big cash on exspensive arrows and plungers. And why weaken bows with center shot if you could just khatra your way to consistantcy?
Interesting. It seems that the no-khatra was more consistent, and since arrow speed also affects where in arrow hits, perhaps no-khatra will give higher precision?
Matter of practice
It looks like its just a matter of preference and practice. All these methods accomplish the same thing, its just a matter of what you've gotten used to.
I mean I have a different version of khatra compared to yourself Armin, and they come out super straight and faster than I could have had with 3 finger. Just due to draw length. My 3 finger draw is about 27" while my thumb draw is 32.5~33.5"
thats why I did not compare 3 finger draw with thumb draw
@@ArminHirmer Yes, it would not have been a fair comparison if you did 😆
Ah my favorite archery controversy haha
Very interesting how down khatra was so consistent... I think I'll start practicing that.
I personally would've considered that 130 a fluke tho, lol
Yes hahaa 130 just a fluke i can see that hahaha
Hey Armin, what pound is the bow @28', whats your draw length?, and what are the arrow weights please, Cheers brother :)
40 I think I draw 32" so around 50# arrows are 500grn
Thanks heaps, blessings from Oz :)
that down kathra has consistent speed showing that the arrow is stable which could be means more accuracy and highest speed too
or Armin is most proficient using down khatra
Nice video Armin congrats ! I have a question for you .
What it is your favorite bow , let's say if you have to chose juste one !?
recently one can see me shooting mostly the Raptor by Simons Bowcompany...
I'm really surprised that such a recorved bow with siyahs is only shooting in the 150 range... is that normal? Even selfbows tend to shoot in the 170s if they are well made. Or are these arrows heavier than others? I thought these would be shooting in the 190s at least.
Superb demonstration sir, have been watching your “lessons” for a while, improved my technique a lot thanks to you, even for me being a lone trainer. Just watched the video from another bow TUBER, who claims khatra is only fiction, man it would be hurt to throw aways the smart, open minded fan, and retains all the idiots with him due to one single show-off video to prove the smartness he has. It’s kind of .... well you know.
Hallo Armin, denkst du, dass eine Steinschleuder ein brauchbares Übungswerkzeug für die Bogenhand wäre, um die Khatra Bewegung ins Muskelgedächtnis zu bekommen? Oder ist der Unterschied zu einem Bogen zu groß, so dass man sich dadurch falsche Bewegungen antrainiert, die sich negativ auswirken.
Kann helfen, nahezu die gleiche Bewegung
What about accuracy?
matter of practice I guess
Is Khatra comparative with slingshot technique? I remember when stationen i Iraq, the kids with slingshot seem to have used Khatra. Had no knowledge of it at the time, but I remember thier movements quite good. Also slings have the same momentum technique.
Yes you can do forward kathra with slings. Just because you mentioned it I remembered used it as a kid(me and other shooters) bit not in Iraq it was in Brazil. But it's was something natural we never though it could have a name.
Aloha from Hawaii. I took my Nomad Warrior to the range for the first time yesterday, (everyone else shooting compounds) but shot Mediterranean. Not ready for thumb release. I could see that my arrows were flying cockeyed. Not that I can perform Khatra shooting Mediterranean. When I begin thumb release is Khatra also getting the bow out of the way so the arrow can fly straighter?
Should be like this, as long as your release is crisp
nice master... I like u..
Perhaps it's just me but all styles of khatra seemed to be quieter than without.
That's a very interesting experimental test, but do you have any idea why there's so much difference?
first the difference is not that big, second I think you release the arrow with lass bend, so the energy is used for getting the arrow forward
It looks like you gain 10 feet a second by not having all that drag on the side of the bow
that's not my opinion....see also the video from Murat Özvery. it seems to low power in the bowhand, thatswhy the big range of results! At my point of sight no representative results
Never said that there is something representative :)
@@ArminHirmer mir ist nur aufgefallen, daß immer bei Side Khatra (also Torque-Kraft-bezogene Khatra) die Werte stark abfallen bzw. inconsistent sind. Das läßt halt den Schluß auf Probleme in der Bogenhand zu (Kraft, Torquetiming). Auf jeden Fall aber gibt es hier eigentlich keine Aussage Fakt ist, daß richtig ausgeführtes Khatra erhebliche Auswirkungen von ca 10- 20 % je nach Bogen und Pfeil auf die Erhöhung der Pfeilgeschwindigkeit und - Reichweite hat. Bereits mit einem Kinderbogen läßt sich der Effekt einfach nachweisen- auch bei der Reichweite Flightshooting...Deswegen bin ich ehrlich gesagt enttäuscht, daß Du dieses wichtige Thema in diesem Video so scheinbar flüchtig und ohne Aussage mit einer derartigen Streuung abhandelst. Damit widersprichst Du auch Deinen anderen besseren Videos zu diesem Thema Sorry, Ja-Sager gibt's genug, ist halt meine Meinung, wenn Du sie nicht hören willst, mußte mich halt blocken, auch egal. Aber schade...
I don't think it's very accurate if you keep moving closer to the chronograph.
Aha
Nice 😁