A professor that loves shooting an arrow more than learning the science of it but teaches anyways for the sake of his students. An effort highly appreciated. Maraming Salamat Armin as always.
I've worked as an aircraft engineer (tooled in inches) for 35 years and i never knew about an inch being 3 grains of medium barley end to end. Proof that we can learn something new every day. Today it was your turn to teach me something. Thank you. ;)
I’m new to archery (got bored with gunpowder 😞) of all the archery channels I’ve been watching, yours is the most informative for me. You give great input and without ego. Makes everything much easier to understand? Thank you
I gave up the number game of the arrow a long time ago when my head exploded. So I went back to primitive/traditional archery and parked my compound bow. Now I,m shooting Horse bows (thanks to you) with mongol style thumb release. Sooo much more happy now. 👌
Excellent video my friend definitely helped understand the science behind the arrow. Now I know why my Grozer Turkish shoots as well with 350 spine with a lighter tip than 450 spine with a heavy tip at 42# at 28" thank you. Hope to see more videos from you I've watched all the rest multiple times but still learn something new every time I watch one.
Hey! Mr. Armin!! 🙏as always 1000 thanks. for such valuable information.And to be able to continue learning and helping many understand the terminology of the arrows. Thanks for sharing video.✌😀
Realy good to check back on some older vid.s and realize how much info there is. I recently started to make some arrows for myself and needed to dig up some specific terminologies. I tought, hey, i remember havig Armin talking about stuff i just need. A big thank you, again, for bringing the light on those defiitions. Well, explaned
I've been thinking about my arrows spine/FOC this past few days. But I couldn't wrap my head around the different spine values. Now I know the lower the spine value the stiffer the arrow. Thanks Armin.
I heard the meter comes from a drop of water on a Smith table. Dip a chop stock in a glass of water then let it drip in the table, it's vary consistent. Good measurement.
Thanks, Armin for explaining a few concepts of which I was unsure. I think the Imperial system can seem archaic and confusing to many. I grew up with the Imperial system and use the metric system as part of my profession so I'm very comfortable with both systems.
Ridiculous having to know all these little details just to buy an arrow. I use on-line arrow charts and follow my bow manufacturer’s suggestions. I want to have fun shooting, not studying mathematics and engineering. Lol. 🙂 Still, I found this video quite informative and helpful.
Hey Armin, thanks for explaining all those terms, I still had some missconceptions you cleared up! Small correction: with a heavy tip, you don't make the spine "weaker", as you say in the video. The arrow has to push the tip and accelerate it - the heavier the tip, the more force is needed to accelerate it, which makes the arrow either bend more than you would expect from its spine value (which is probably what you meant by "weaker"?) or bend so much that it breaks. So essentially, the heavier the tip the lower spine your arrow should be, or else you risk excessive flexing/damage to your arrow.
VE: although the spine if the shaft hasn't changed, the dynamic spine (how the arrow as a whole behaves) does change. A heavier point "weakens" dynamic spine while a lighter point "stiffens" dynamic spine. This is well documented in the archery world and is covered in every tuning manual from Olympic, to compound, to trad.
Great information and easy to understand, I think you should have explained what can happen when you shoot an under spined arrow, if it breaks from being pushed forward there's a possibility that the arrow goes through your hand and that's bad lol
Hi Armin. Great video, as always. Can you please elaborate a bit also for tip weight - is a matter of taste or it has to be in a range, in sync with arrow weight as well. Thank you! Antonio
Armin I did make a discovery. Replacing an arrow tip with a heavier one it does indeed weaken the spine. However, if you use something like a brass insert, replacing the normal aluminum insert spine can actually stiffen especially if that insert is somewhat long. A 300 grain brass insert is fairly long and so you may habe to tune the arrow. I used a slightly longer arrow shaft and tried the shot, then remobed the insert and shorten it very slightly, replace the insert and try again until I get it as near as perfect as possible. I takes time and paitience to do this and I only to get much better penetration for large or dangerous game Ie ferral hog (boar) or other such.... I hope my explanation made sense. A high foc arrow can penetrate heavy bone when done correctly with normal draw weights (40 to 60) in traditional bows.
Interesting comment about the spine of an arrow not impacting thumb release archers. I thought correct spine adjustment was mainly to benefit from a better archer paradox arrow recovery once out of the bow. Therefore enhancing performance and precision. Is the Archer paradox less present with a thumb released shot? All this only makes sense for non-center shot bows of course. Excellent video as always! Thanks a lot!
Hello Armin, Thank you very much. That means, when my bow maker wrote me to use 9-10gpp and a minim of 8. My bow has 32 pounds and i choose 10Gpp: X (arrow weight in Grains) 10gpp= --------- 32 (drawweight, i draw exactly 28") Follows : 10x32 = 320 Grains I buy an arrow with a total weight of 320 Grains I guess?
Thank you very much Armin for all these explanations, it is true that today we can go loing in the science of archery, if we remain purely in a material and scientific dimension . But Life is not limited to the left brain! There is also the right, the intuition, the power of the Spirit on matter etc... Of course it requires to be lived and felt! I was wondering what exactly is the F value? I seem to have noticed a strong F value on a Simsek bow. Is this the raport between power and dimension? What impact in practice? Thank you very much Armin for these videos and exchange of Spirit!
So glad you explained gain, I have always been confused by that term. Question: While feathered flights are preferred, is there anything wrong with rubber flights?
Very helpful new archer haven't covered this yet in my archery lessons, out of interest do you bow hunt or just do competition there is a Archery competition called Scorton Arrow been going since 1673
After watching this I learned so much. The arrows I got are wayyyy too heavy for the turkish alibow I have, 30# at 29" and I bought 30" arrows with 500 spine and 100 grain arrow tips. Great to know the standard of 10 grains per # and 1 grain = .065g so 30# x 10 = 300 x .065 = 19.5 grams So the ideal weight for arrows in my alibow turkish bow would be minimum 300 grain to 450 grain?
Thanks a lot for the info. How does that all relate to bamboo arrows with irregular thickness and tapered nature? I imagine thumb release helps and I am happy to have got into that early on thanks to your encouragement.
Most historical wooden arrows were also tapered, either symmetrically (kinda barrel-shaped) or just like bamboo ones - the spine rule stays the same as with straight ones
Thank you very much!! Very good info!!! What is AMO? I'd be happy to know that, because I bought a Bear Kodiak and there's a measurement related to that term.... Thanks again 😊
Slow it down a bit please. First time listening to terminology is important. You’ve done a great job. Yet the math one may need some time to ponder. Thank you. I did enjoy your video.
What "should" be the lowest gpp? I have some arrows I like and with the bow right now it's about 10.4gpp. With the bow "I have in mind in case I get better" it would be 7.4gpp.
I've been making my own arrows lately, I find it a real art and tricky to match the arrow to the bow. Matching gpp & gpi...sorry for me, I love traditional wooden arrows .... make them as accurate as you can and they each seem to still have their own character of where they want to shoot....
Because of that western way of measuring You just how long shaft of arrow is I ended up with buying 12 so called 29" arrows that I can barely pull through clicker although I have 75 cm from anchor to clicker at full draw
i have a question im shooting the tibetan qinghai from alibow alot and the arrows that i got with the bow are a bit to light how could i add weight to the arrow without messing up the spine too mutch? i tried a heavier tip but that makes the spine to weak
Straight off to those that are crying about the use of Imperial measures, I'm no fan of the Imperial system, but frankly, using grains where the value is a whole number and not a fraction is easier to work with. The same is true for the spine of an arrow. One could take a half inch or 1.27 cm of flex and multiply by 1000 to get a whole number - 500 or 1270, but more to the point, "If everyone is using and understanding the same system, be it derived from the Imperial or the Metric, what is the problem?" Case is, archers and those in the archery industries have simply continued with what was used previously. Learn that system and accept that fact.
long live the metric system! grain pound inch foot ... is so not understandable. what type of arrow is suitable for my snake 26 (11.8 kilo) 60 inch (1.52 meters) ??
Armin Hirmer Wow thx Mr. Hirmer. Did not think you answered questions yrself. Thought I would be lucky if one of yr followers would know - therefore twice in two videos. Thank you again
The imperial system is by far the stupidest thing there is. inch grain pound feet cups... how hard can it be to use the simple metric system for archery in europe.
long live the metric system! grain pound inch foot ... is so not understandable. what type of arrow is suitable for my snake 26 (11.8 kilo) 60 inch (1.52 meters) ??
![2/1/2025 (Sat): Jigeiko [地稽古]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/aVlfWbogcc0/mqdefault.jpg)
A professor that loves shooting an arrow more than learning the science of it but teaches anyways for the sake of his students. An effort highly appreciated.
Maraming Salamat Armin as always.
Finally, someone explained very clearly these issues
about the arrows !!!
Thanks a lot !!!
I've worked as an aircraft engineer (tooled in inches) for 35 years and i never knew about an inch being 3 grains of medium barley end to end. Proof that we can learn something new every day. Today it was your turn to teach me something. Thank you. ;)
Same here! Bet most BAE Systems engineers don't know either.
I’m new to archery (got bored with gunpowder 😞) of all the archery channels I’ve been watching, yours is the most informative for me. You give great input and without ego. Makes everything much easier to understand? Thank you
Impressive how you unpacked all this information so perfectly.
You are the only one in this traditional archery world you share everything about bow and arrow.
5 years later an I've learnt of foc or what grain weight actually meant.
Thanks Armin, it all helps.
I gave up the number game of the arrow a long time ago when my head exploded.
So I went back to primitive/traditional archery and parked my compound bow. Now I,m shooting Horse bows (thanks to you) with mongol style thumb release. Sooo much more happy now. 👌
awesome
Excellent video my friend definitely helped understand the science behind the arrow. Now I know why my Grozer Turkish shoots as well with 350 spine with a lighter tip than 450 spine with a heavy tip at 42# at 28" thank you. Hope to see more videos from you I've watched all the rest multiple times but still learn something new every time I watch one.
I love these videos, always learning.
Jesus! That was super informative!!! I'll download it and probably listen few times more! I cannot be more grateful!
Hey! Mr. Armin!! 🙏as always 1000 thanks. for such valuable information.And to be able to continue learning and helping many understand the terminology of the arrows. Thanks for sharing video.✌😀
Your the Best in the game Armin !!
Realy good to check back on some older vid.s and realize how much info there is. I recently started to make some arrows for myself and needed to dig up some specific terminologies. I tought, hey, i remember havig Armin talking about stuff i just need. A big thank you, again, for bringing the light on those defiitions. Well, explaned
Thank you
So useful ! I was totally lost with all these grains, gpp, foc, etc... Thank you very much !
Armin thank you so much for clearing up the cob webs of my mind on this subject.I can now breath with no stress.Danke
I've been thinking about my arrows spine/FOC this past few days. But I couldn't wrap my head around the different spine values. Now I know the lower the spine value the stiffer the arrow. Thanks Armin.
Very useful information. Thanks. Learning something new with every video
Very nice and complete summary! One to bookmark!
I have engrained the grain 🌾 weight for arrow now, thank you.
I heard the meter comes from a drop of water on a Smith table. Dip a chop stock in a glass of water then let it drip in the table, it's vary consistent. Good measurement.
Thanks, Armin for explaining a few concepts of which I was unsure. I think the Imperial system can seem archaic and confusing to many. I grew up with the Imperial system and use the metric system as part of my profession so I'm very comfortable with both systems.
And always happy to watch your videos dear Armin!!!
Ridiculous having to know all these little details just to buy an arrow. I use on-line arrow charts and follow my bow manufacturer’s suggestions. I want to have fun shooting, not studying mathematics and engineering. Lol. 🙂 Still, I found this video quite informative and helpful.
I love how you said F.O.C
10:40
oh, nice video. all the arrow parameters nicely explained.
Hey Armin, thanks for explaining all those terms, I still had some missconceptions you cleared up!
Small correction: with a heavy tip, you don't make the spine "weaker", as you say in the video. The arrow has to push the tip and accelerate it - the heavier the tip, the more force is needed to accelerate it, which makes the arrow either bend more than you would expect from its spine value (which is probably what you meant by "weaker"?) or bend so much that it breaks.
So essentially, the heavier the tip the lower spine your arrow should be, or else you risk excessive flexing/damage to your arrow.
That is what I meant
VE: although the spine if the shaft hasn't changed, the dynamic spine (how the arrow as a whole behaves) does change. A heavier point "weakens" dynamic spine while a lighter point "stiffens" dynamic spine. This is well documented in the archery world and is covered in every tuning manual from Olympic, to compound, to trad.
I hadn't never heard of FOC, very informative video. I hope there'll be others like this. :)
Thanks millions for the information.
Great information and easy to understand, I think you should have explained what can happen when you shoot an under spined arrow, if it breaks from being pushed forward there's a possibility that the arrow goes through your hand and that's bad lol
Hi Armin. Great video, as always. Can you please elaborate a bit also for tip weight - is a matter of taste or it has to be in a range, in sync with arrow weight as well. Thank you! Antonio
Thank you, Armin. Great video! As always)
Armin I did make a discovery. Replacing an arrow tip with a heavier one it does indeed weaken the spine. However, if you use something like a brass insert, replacing the normal aluminum insert spine can actually stiffen especially if that insert is somewhat long. A 300 grain brass insert is fairly long and so you may habe to tune the arrow. I used a slightly longer arrow shaft and tried the shot, then remobed the insert and shorten it very slightly, replace the insert and try again until I get it as near as perfect as possible. I takes time and paitience to do this and I only to get much better penetration for large or dangerous game Ie ferral hog (boar) or other such....
I hope my explanation made sense. A high foc arrow can penetrate heavy bone when done correctly with normal draw weights (40 to 60) in traditional bows.
Excellent explanation, the best one on youtube, cheers!
thank you
I can't thank you enough for this video
Welcome. Thank you for watching
Interesting comment about the spine of an arrow not impacting thumb release archers. I thought correct spine adjustment was mainly to benefit from a better archer paradox arrow recovery once out of the bow. Therefore enhancing performance and precision. Is the Archer paradox less present with a thumb released shot? All this only makes sense for non-center shot bows of course. Excellent video as always! Thanks a lot!
Does not affect that much as long as the arrows are stiffer than needed
Hello Armin,
Thank you very much. That means, when my bow maker wrote me to use 9-10gpp and a minim of 8.
My bow has 32 pounds and i choose 10Gpp:
X (arrow weight in Grains)
10gpp= ---------
32 (drawweight, i draw exactly 28")
Follows : 10x32 = 320 Grains
I buy an arrow with a total weight of 320 Grains I guess?
Exactly
@@ArminHirmer thank you sir robin, 😉
very enlightening, thank you, master
Wonderful! Thanks Armin!
Thank you for another beneficial video.
looks a lovely day there in Malta.
yes finally summer started :D
Second !!! 😄😄😄
Thank's Armin for this usefull videos and explainations🙏😊🙏
Richard Lionheart 😎🇫🇷
Thank you very much Armin for all these explanations, it is true that today we can go loing in the science of archery, if we remain purely in a material and scientific dimension .
But Life is not limited to the left brain! There is also the right, the intuition, the power of the Spirit on matter etc... Of course it requires to be lived and felt! I was wondering what exactly is the F value?
I seem to have noticed a strong F value on a Simsek bow.
Is this the raport between power and dimension?
What impact in practice?
Thank you very much Armin for these videos and exchange of Spirit!
Thank you for watching
So glad you explained gain, I have always been confused by that term. Question: While feathered flights are preferred, is there anything wrong with rubber flights?
Now I know! Thanks. Great stuff.
Wonderful video
Thanks for sharing
Greetings from Iraq
Veeeeery nice...will share it..Thank you
Good job. Well done.
Perfect! Thank you
Very helpful new archer haven't covered this yet in my archery lessons, out of interest do you bow hunt or just do competition there is a Archery competition called Scorton Arrow been going since 1673
No hunting no competitions :)
Very good info Brother !
Well done, thank you.
Thanks allways!
After watching this I learned so much. The arrows I got are wayyyy too heavy for the turkish alibow I have, 30# at 29" and I bought 30" arrows with 500 spine and 100 grain arrow tips. Great to know the standard of 10 grains per # and 1 grain = .065g so 30# x 10 = 300 x .065 = 19.5 grams
So the ideal weight for arrows in my alibow turkish bow would be minimum 300 grain to 450 grain?
Lol, I actually understood all of that, amazing!
Thank You!
Thanks a lot for the info.
How does that all relate to bamboo arrows with irregular thickness and tapered nature?
I imagine thumb release helps and I am happy to have got into that early on thanks to your encouragement.
Bamboo is stiffer overall and heavier, so it is different. Might do a video once I get new bamboo arrows from somewhere
Thanks, what would be your bow of choice for self-made bamboo arrows?
Have a strong urge to get into that more than making a bow.
Most historical wooden arrows were also tapered, either symmetrically (kinda barrel-shaped) or just like bamboo ones - the spine rule stays the same as with straight ones
Thank you very much!! Very good info!!! What is AMO? I'd be happy to know that, because I bought a Bear Kodiak and there's a measurement related to that term.... Thanks again 😊
That is the American standard of measuring bows. Archers agreed on that :) and it's fine for me
Regarding your bow it is the length of your bow measured in AMO standard, means nock to nock along the belly
Thank you very much dear Armin!!
Thx! So, another reason(s) to tolerate the occasional flyer arrow off to the right when shooting thumb-draw. ;-)
no tolerate, accept and work on it :D
Slow it down a bit please. First time listening to terminology is important. You’ve done a great job. Yet the math one may need some time to ponder. Thank you. I did enjoy your video.
English is second language
Mine not yours
🤙❤️🍻
What "should" be the lowest gpp?
I have some arrows I like and with the bow right now it's about 10.4gpp.
With the bow "I have in mind in case I get better" it would be 7.4gpp.
Depends on the bow and bowbuilder. The new speed Turkish by Nawalny as example can go down to 7gpp
I've been making my own arrows lately, I find it a real art and tricky to match the arrow to the bow. Matching gpp & gpi...sorry for me, I love traditional wooden arrows .... make them as accurate as you can and they each seem to still have their own character of where they want to shoot....
Because of that western way of measuring You just how long shaft of arrow is I ended up with buying 12 so called 29" arrows that I can barely pull through clicker although I have 75 cm from anchor to clicker at full draw
Thank you very much 😁
Thanks
Great job.
Great lesson
Did you ever get around to doing a video on spine selection for thumb release?
might do one
i have a question im shooting the tibetan qinghai from alibow alot and the arrows that i got with the bow are a bit to light how could i add weight to the arrow without messing up the spine too mutch? i tried a heavier tip but that makes the spine to weak
we measure our arrows with a badger and weight with a cup of bees! things a little different in the shire. : /
:D
What happens when not following this, except length?
Oh, you gave som offer
Salam & Peace Shaykh 😃
So if my bow is 40# @ 28”, but I shoot at 32” which is 52#, would I calculate a 400 grain arrow as 400÷52 = 7.69gpp ?
This video gave so many input but only got few likes. Please do spread this knowledge among your fellow friends who are into archery.
What spines do you consider 'safe', when you shoot thumb release?
Depends on the draw weight.
Sempre molto bravo, e f-value Cosa è?
Will do a video about it
@@ArminHirmer Grazie, aspetto di vederlo con interesse, saluti.
Straight off to those that are crying about the use of Imperial measures, I'm no fan of the Imperial system, but frankly, using grains where the value is a whole number and not a fraction is easier to work with. The same is true for the spine of an arrow. One could take a half inch or 1.27 cm of flex and multiply by 1000 to get a whole number - 500 or 1270, but more to the point, "If everyone is using and understanding the same system, be it derived from the Imperial or the Metric, what is the problem?" Case is, archers and those in the archery industries have simply continued with what was used previously. Learn that system and accept that fact.
10:41 first time ever Armin swears 😂
I thought measurements were to the throat of the knock?
Always the place where the string sits
Which one ideal GPP for arrow 8, 9 or 10?
Is it important to get correct arrow FOC?
or FOC only needed for hunting archery?
For spruce shaft is the spine always linear to the GPI and shaft weight?
Depends on the bow
Sorry i ask too many, maybe you can give me some information that i need..
Thx alot before and after...,🙏
Always good to have a balanced arrow
Wow that sun came out of no where
Just a little something of interest. A grain is 1/7000th of a pound. There are 7,000 grains in a pound.
interesting thank you
long live the metric system! grain pound inch foot ... is so not understandable.
what type of arrow is suitable for my snake 26 (11.8 kilo) 60 inch (1.52 meters) ??
Hi. I think it's enough to place your question once :)
Armin Hirmer Wow thx Mr. Hirmer. Did not think you answered questions yrself. Thought I would be lucky if one of yr followers would know - therefore twice in two videos. Thank you again
10 to 15% nose heavy good. Heavier the point stronger the spine, in gradient to length. Check! ????
(Spine needed) amended
the heavier the point, the weaker the spine
@@ArminHirmer or am I confused in assuming spine # = strength 340
@@Forever-into-Cars-and-Stars the smaller the number, the stiffer the arrow
@@ArminHirmer and that's why I'm / was a tow truck driver. I always get things backwards.
My head hurts
no worries, mine to after reading some of the comments :D
Like that
These!!
Long horsebows!
7th!
Still no f-value explanation :v
So the guy that is concerned about all of this is trying to shoot the flies off the animal and not actually kill the game
Grain weight is idiotic as imperial units.
You don’t have to use it :)
First
The imperial system is by far the stupidest thing there is. inch grain pound feet cups... how hard can it be to use the simple metric system for archery in europe.
It shouldn't be hard to get both European bow manufacturers to agree on this ;)
I am not in the industry, I shoot arrows and use the actual terms :) start a petition and make Europe great again
Thank you!
long live the metric system! grain pound inch foot ... is so not understandable.
what type of arrow is suitable for my snake 26 (11.8 kilo) 60 inch (1.52 meters) ??