I finally have my first bow! It's a second hand Kaya Wind fighter and after almost 100 shots I can't be more happy. Nice and calm feelings is the first i've noticed after a while. I also got a thumb ring and i'm directly shooting with thumb release. You are inspiring! Thank you
Armin, Great video! I wasn't even aware that there was more than one style of khatra. Very informative! Especially combined with the commentary and demonstrations with an excellent selection of bows of different lengths, widths, limb weights, handles, etc!! Thanks very much!
Armin Himer Another great video. Probably the most in depth coaching video on performing the Khatra manoeuvre. Using all the different types of bows and explaining how & why it works with them. Keep up the good work Armin. Best wishes Claypole from Scotland
was expecting 3 min Friday on the topic. i was thrilled to see those wide range of bow you've prepared for the video. :,) a whole new perspectives for me when looking at a bow after this. a bunch of questions i had in my head are answered today; my soul is at peace now. i hope this will help people looking for which criteria that works for them when choosing their bow. thank you for your time and effort Armin. i've lost count how many arrows you've shot for this one!
Makes perfect sense that grip size and shape would be at least equally determinative. My long Living Arrow bow is magic for helping me follow through with whichever khatra version I chose. But it seems to be encouraging my use of the side/down method, which surprising.
So Friends, Armin has rightly cleared us all that not every bow is meant for doing "khatra".So don't make "Khatra" a habbit, specially by watching videos on internet ( for internet learners), which looks so amusing with wrong kind of Bows, they are doing "Khatra" deliberately, whether its required or not. many people has shown that " Khatra" is not necessary, because when its movement is not done perfectly, it gives a very bad release. so now the question arise.... How necessary is "Khatra" ... do you want to get a Bow only for doing "Khatra" or to hit your Target, or you think that by doing "Khatra" your arrow speed is increased or your arrow will not reach target without doing "Khatra"..... Thank you Armin again for such lovely video and showing us small part of your Bow collection
Khatra isnt required but it makes each shot straighter and faster. Isnt that more efficient than having to make sure the spine of your arrow matches to get decently accurate. Gary Chynne does reverse khatra and hes a longbow shooter. He even says it adds speed and u can be accurate with it. Given it may take more practice but you would be practicing all the time anyway. That's my opinion. Every bow can do khatra and getting the most out of your bow you would want to. My accuracy does not change with ot without khatra
It seems like the weight distribution along the bow limbs would have a large affect on how nimbly a bow would handle and perform khatra. The more weight you have farther from your bow hand, the more inertia there would be to overcome.
I've found with all my Turkish bows the further around the handle I grip the better side khatra works the less grip side and down khatra works better. With my longer bows side and down khatra are the only ones that let me group well. My Sai Cai from AF is long but side and down khatra work really well but looks way more exaggerated with the same amount of force I use on my Turkish bows. Really looks like I'm throwing the arrow with the longer bows. I've started using more tourque style with my Turkish bows but not exaggerated and it works well. I think grip has as much play in this than length. Thank you for this tutorial my friend I really liked it.
Very interesting video, being able to have so many bow design is really a great thing. It also show why different cultures went for certain design, not all cultures used Khatra/torque, this makes it fascinating. I gathered that Kathra was performed because thumb release being almost as clean as using a release aid, the arrow could slide off the bow sideways, so you had to push the bow aside, i think the arrow pass width and design can also be a big factor for this.
Hey Armin, really love the way that you are doing this khatra research! I practice Kyudo and do something a little similar to the sideways torque method, though we call it "yugaeri", and the application is a bit different from how you did it. but in observation of how khatra is done, I realise it seems very similar as we also build pressure around the base of thumb and base of last finger. Would love to explore with more asiatic bows since the japanese yumi is a bit hard to transport around! I do have a question regarding bows and khatra as I have heard that some bows cannot have khatra performed on them like the Mongolian or Manchu bows. Does the khatra movement cause harm to the bow's shape and structural integrity?
I have lernd some things from you in this video I'm working on a pacific yew wood bow.and probably two . Then I'm looking forward to juniper then ash . This is the first time I've seen you I think I will enjoy your channel . Nice collection .
Interesting video thank you. The handle shape makes a lot of sense for the pivot point and the throw of the bow. Would have been good to see you shooting the original Scythian from Flagella Dei, maybe you could do a test review of it again as you are now much more comprehensive in your tests - I seem to recall that you really liked it as a bow when you first shot it. I have been shooting their Scythian for about nine years now and it is still my favorite bow for roving, clouting and all round fun. Great bow at an excellent price!! I tried the Black Mamba and didn't enjoy it as much as the original, it seemed a little slow. I also noticed that you seem to hold the Scythian a lot higher up the handle than I do, which would also effect the pivot point. One thing I have also noticed with Flagella Dei and the multiple Scythian bows I have had from them , is that the handles are always a different size and shape. So you either take the leather grip off and re shape it, or order 3 or 4 and find the one you like and sell the rest ;) One other point is the choice of laminate seems to change the way the bow feels and shoots, again having tried all the combinations, the zebrano offers the best performance. Thank you for you videos, very helpful always. Keep up the good work!
Moment of inertia does matter. For bigger size bows, try rotation about the axis of handle instead of leaning toward. Eg japanese bow. Same way applies to the heavy weight (mass) bows or bows with large siyahs. In some conclusion: @The make of the bow determines whether the bow can be rotated, e.g. Korean vs Manchu. @The moment of inertia determines how the bow can be rotated.
First guy I see, using a kind of khatra, was Gary Chynne(i think hes name is, canadian) He did explain the technic but not what it was. He used a american style horsebow doing it. Then a longbow. So I started trying. Then I discover you on youtube, and it was a revelation to me. You explain the consept of khatra so easy, that I understood it imidately. Now I use khatra on every type of bow (Not compound thou, wich I shot befor. Stoped using those types of bows now). Some are easyer to preform khatra with, like you say, but most bow work with it. The whole point with khatra, is for the arrow, not to be in contact with the bow when it leaves the string, right? That way archers paradox dosnt affect the accuracy? I feel my accuracy has increast and it feel like khatra gives bow a little more power and speed to the arrow. I see this from penetration in the target. The arrows go deeper when using khatra. Thank you very much for your very good instructions on the topic, here on youtube. You have in friend in me even if we havnt met, because of this free lessons. (Thou, I still can teach you a thing or two about knife throwing, haha. Our first conversation on net, when I commented you throwing knife without twist 🤣)
And why can anyone give this video a thumb down? They cant understand what its about. There you see, peoples stupidity reflect back on themself. Keep it coming, the videos. 👍
Whoa..i love this video..soo much i could learn from this video sir.. By the way, this video make me remember when I made 1 special bow just because i love khatra.
Love your earlier video explaining how to khatra, but I couldn't find a video on how to perform the torque side khatra you demonstrated here. Any chance for a video explaining how to do that one as well? Or if you already have one and I just missed it, it would be nice to know. Love the videos in general as well.
So timely thank you. Good to see two of my three bows in there. I love the whole ceremony with the twist using the Sarmat yumi. However I feel like getting a tennis arm when I practice daily. After I broke my Orhan (not the bow's fault), I practiced with the 71 humble Sarmat Varang longbow and after developing some side down khatra the arrow slap disappeared and I was impressed how well the bow shot. Not a design for it but still quite doable. Tiring in the wrist though. Then recently ordered the Babylon which arrived within a week. Quiet a different khatra experience. However I'd rather take the cheaper and tougher Varang to shoot in the forest but due to the difference in arrow pass it takes quite a while to 'sight in' from one to the other . Any suggestions Should Khatra be able to compensate for arrow pass? Thanks
I find it easier to perform khatra with my Ottoman and Tatar style bows than with my manchu style bow, although having said that, I'm still getting the hang of shooting the manchu bow accurately when I'm drawing it as far back as my arm length permits. Right now, my targets tend to look a bit like they've been hit by an arrow shooting shotgun after I've given them the manchu treatment.
hey nice video like always. I have a question about bows from Imre Nagy they are quite nice but models you tried had big heavy siyahs, have you tried or you know someone who shot tatar and assyrian model? they have much lighter siyahs and im intrested how they would perform
That forward khatra with the Yumi lol. I have seen them do it in a movie but....who knows. Side khatra makes more sense and doesnt take as much effort to get the bow back into place
Do you have the facility to shoot out to longer ranges, example, 100 meters, I would be interested in knowing what aiming methods you use, and which of these bows has better longer range accuracy?
Armin, have you ever tried designing your own bow, maybe even manufacturing them? I bet there are about 40.5 k subscribers who would be interested in buying them
To do an exhaustive scientific study of this fascinating topic it seems to me that you would need to be a bowyer. A series of bows would need to be built with identical handles. The bows would be made with various lengths. They would need to be made it the same materials. Bows of different mass/weight would need to be made of each length. And even the distribution of the weight along the length could be varied. It would take years. If you wanted to study bows of different designs it would take a lifetime!
@@Daylon91 Hi 🙂, I'm interested in getting one of those triangle bows also. I tried to order the Kadesh bow from AF but they're not shipping to the UK at the moment due to the Coronavirus. That Babylon bow looks identical though, do you know who manufactures it? Thanks.
I have this 35kg @ 90cm, bamboo yumi. A khatra is not an easy thing for this bow. But i use this bow what it is meant for, to kill a peace of paper at any distance. And because i am left handed the Japanese won't like me anyway.
@@jake4194 I find it difficult for these heavy bows... I "heard" there is a secret "wave away" method... And i can only say that this is easier to prevent the arrows to cut my 77# yumi into two halves.. (1/3x2/3)
After you pull the bow back to full draw apply a little bit of left twist on the bow (thumb draw arrow on right side) when you shoot try to keep a loose ish grip on the bow and the bow should rotate to varying degrees depending on how tight you grip how much torque etc.. the bow will do most of the work, it's not a forced movement.
@@ArminHirmer what is draw weight on this bow and at what length , Would be handy if various bow companies not just gave the standard 28" weight but gave the weight at each length up to their claimed draw max , But am interested As much as you have given me free of charge in your great videos , I feel I should try to pay back For sure once this silly fear porn panic of curunoo is over I would love to go to Malta for a course or sign up for course that you give in Europe somewhere Send details on bow and perhaps???
A very good idea to make this comparison. We need to rediscover what our ancestors perfected through battle in practice. Good on ya
I finally have my first bow! It's a second hand Kaya Wind fighter and after almost 100 shots I can't be more happy. Nice and calm feelings is the first i've noticed after a while. I also got a thumb ring and i'm directly shooting with thumb release.
You are inspiring! Thank you
Armin, Great video! I wasn't even aware that there was more than one style of khatra. Very informative! Especially combined with the commentary and demonstrations with an excellent selection of bows of different lengths, widths, limb weights, handles, etc!!
Thanks very much!
Armin Himer Another great video. Probably the most in depth coaching video on performing the Khatra manoeuvre. Using all the different types of bows and explaining how & why it works with them. Keep up the good work Armin.
Best wishes
Claypole from Scotland
was expecting 3 min Friday on the topic. i was thrilled to see those wide range of bow you've prepared for the video. :,)
a whole new perspectives for me when looking at a bow after this. a bunch of questions i had in my head are answered today; my soul is at peace now.
i hope this will help people looking for which criteria that works for them when choosing their bow.
thank you for your time and effort Armin. i've lost count how many arrows you've shot for this one!
So many lovely bows. Interesting experiment. Look forward to your next video, Armin.
Thank You Armin ! Such an interesting video as usual
As usual, excellent and interesting video. thanks for your time Mr. Armin🙏
Makes perfect sense that grip size and shape would be at least equally determinative. My long Living Arrow bow is magic for helping me follow through with whichever khatra version I chose. But it seems to be encouraging my use of the side/down method, which surprising.
Another great video I didn't know about the twisting khatra, makes perfect sense with a long bow or unusual shape handle
So Friends, Armin has rightly cleared us all that not every bow is meant for doing "khatra".So don't make "Khatra" a habbit, specially by watching videos on internet ( for internet learners), which looks so amusing with wrong kind of Bows, they are doing "Khatra" deliberately, whether its required or not. many people has shown that " Khatra" is not necessary, because when its movement is not done perfectly, it gives a very bad release. so now the question arise.... How necessary is "Khatra" ... do you want to get a Bow only for doing "Khatra" or to hit your Target, or you think that by doing "Khatra" your arrow speed is increased or your arrow will not reach target without doing "Khatra"..... Thank you Armin again for such lovely video and showing us small part of your Bow collection
Khatra isnt required but it makes each shot straighter and faster. Isnt that more efficient than having to make sure the spine of your arrow matches to get decently accurate. Gary Chynne does reverse khatra and hes a longbow shooter. He even says it adds speed and u can be accurate with it. Given it may take more practice but you would be practicing all the time anyway. That's my opinion. Every bow can do khatra and getting the most out of your bow you would want to. My accuracy does not change with ot without khatra
Ahhh i wait to watch this video. Thx for sharing your knowledge.
It seems like the weight distribution along the bow limbs would have a large affect on how nimbly a bow would handle and perform khatra. The more weight you have farther from your bow hand, the more inertia there would be to overcome.
Very astute, its one of several variables that are often over looked in conversations about Khatra
I've found with all my Turkish bows the further around the handle I grip the better side khatra works the less grip side and down khatra works better. With my longer bows side and down khatra are the only ones that let me group well. My Sai Cai from AF is long but side and down khatra work really well but looks way more exaggerated with the same amount of force I use on my Turkish bows. Really looks like I'm throwing the arrow with the longer bows. I've started using more tourque style with my Turkish bows but not exaggerated and it works well. I think grip has as much play in this than length. Thank you for this tutorial my friend I really liked it.
Another great video. I have only experimented briefly with Khatra, but I found it awkward. Well done sir, beautiful bows.
Very interesting video, being able to have so many bow design is really a great thing. It also show why different cultures went for certain design, not all cultures used Khatra/torque, this makes it fascinating.
I gathered that Kathra was performed because thumb release being almost as clean as using a release aid, the arrow could slide off the bow sideways, so you had to push the bow aside, i think the arrow pass width and design can also be a big factor for this.
Very interesting topic. Have been subscribing u since 2017 !
Hey Armin, really love the way that you are doing this khatra research! I practice Kyudo and do something a little similar to the sideways torque method, though we call it "yugaeri", and the application is a bit different from how you did it. but in observation of how khatra is done, I realise it seems very similar as we also build pressure around the base of thumb and base of last finger. Would love to explore with more asiatic bows since the japanese yumi is a bit hard to transport around!
I do have a question regarding bows and khatra as I have heard that some bows cannot have khatra performed on them like the Mongolian or Manchu bows. Does the khatra movement cause harm to the bow's shape and structural integrity?
Interesting topic. Thanks for the info.
It's not about the length, but how you use it 😁
I have lernd some things from you in this video I'm working on a pacific yew wood bow.and probably two . Then I'm looking forward to juniper then ash . This is the first time I've seen you I think I will enjoy your channel . Nice collection .
Great tutorial 🙏🏼
Interesting video thank you. The handle shape makes a lot of sense for the pivot point and the throw of the bow.
Would have been good to see you shooting the original Scythian from Flagella Dei, maybe you could do a test review of it again as you are now much more comprehensive in your tests - I seem to recall that you really liked it as a bow when you first shot it.
I have been shooting their Scythian for about nine years now and it is still my favorite bow for roving, clouting and all round fun. Great bow at an excellent price!! I tried the Black Mamba and didn't enjoy it as much as the original, it seemed a little slow. I also noticed that you seem to hold the Scythian a lot higher up the handle than I do, which would also effect the pivot point.
One thing I have also noticed with Flagella Dei and the multiple Scythian bows I have had from them , is that the handles are always a different size and shape. So you either take the leather grip off and re shape it, or order 3 or 4 and find the one you like and sell the rest ;)
One other point is the choice of laminate seems to change the way the bow feels and shoots, again having tried all the combinations, the zebrano offers the best performance.
Thank you for you videos, very helpful always. Keep up the good work!
Moment of inertia does matter. For bigger size bows, try rotation about the axis of handle instead of leaning toward. Eg japanese bow. Same way applies to the heavy weight (mass) bows or bows with large siyahs.
In some conclusion:
@The make of the bow determines whether the bow can be rotated, e.g. Korean vs Manchu.
@The moment of inertia determines how the bow can be rotated.
Nice info.Thanks
First guy I see, using a kind of khatra, was Gary Chynne(i think hes name is, canadian)
He did explain the technic but not what it was. He used a american style horsebow doing it. Then a longbow. So I started trying.
Then I discover you on youtube, and it was a revelation to me. You explain the consept of khatra so easy, that I understood it imidately. Now I use khatra on every type of bow (Not compound thou, wich I shot befor. Stoped using those types of bows now). Some are easyer to preform khatra with, like you say, but most bow work with it. The whole point with khatra, is for the arrow, not to be in contact with the bow when it leaves the string, right? That way archers paradox dosnt affect the accuracy?
I feel my accuracy has increast and it feel like khatra gives bow a little more power and speed to the arrow. I see this from penetration in the target. The arrows go deeper when using khatra.
Thank you very much for your very good instructions on the topic, here on youtube. You have in friend in me even if we havnt met, because of this free lessons.
(Thou, I still can teach you a thing or two about knife throwing, haha. Our first conversation on net, when I commented you throwing knife without twist 🤣)
And why can anyone give this video a thumb down? They cant understand what its about. There you see, peoples stupidity reflect back on themself. Keep it coming, the videos. 👍
Der sounds of Khatra!
Great show Armin, Hahaha,
British Longbow Thumb release Khatra will have Them purists rolling!
Whoa..i love this video..soo much i could learn from this video sir..
By the way, this video make me remember when I made 1 special bow just because i love khatra.
I thought it just depends on how comfortable and how confident you can perform the Khatra.
Love your earlier video explaining how to khatra, but I couldn't find a video on how to perform the torque side khatra you demonstrated here. Any chance for a video explaining how to do that one as well? Or if you already have one and I just missed it, it would be nice to know. Love the videos in general as well.
Good idea. Thanks for watching
Length seems to matter in conjunction with weight it seems
The more mass in the handle, the easier it is to move around the bow
Nice comparison!5*
Wow love your red and I think blue bow, the one with the arrowes on it, sorry I've just forgotten what you called that one
Before i start the video. My Khatra technique is slightly hindered with my 52 inch bows, not my 48 inchers though.
So timely thank you.
Good to see two of my three bows in there.
I love the whole ceremony with the twist using the Sarmat yumi. However I feel like getting a tennis arm when I practice daily.
After I broke my Orhan (not the bow's fault), I practiced with the 71 humble Sarmat Varang longbow and after developing some side down khatra the arrow slap disappeared and I was impressed how well the bow shot. Not a design for it but still quite doable. Tiring in the wrist though.
Then recently ordered the Babylon which arrived within a week. Quiet a different khatra experience. However I'd rather take the cheaper and tougher Varang to shoot in the forest but due to the difference in arrow pass it takes quite a while to 'sight in' from one to the other . Any suggestions Should Khatra be able to compensate for arrow pass? Thanks
I find it easier to perform khatra with my Ottoman and Tatar style bows than with my manchu style bow, although having said that, I'm still getting the hang of shooting the manchu bow accurately when I'm drawing it as far back as my arm length permits. Right now, my targets tend to look a bit like they've been hit by an arrow shooting shotgun after I've given them the manchu treatment.
hey nice video like always. I have a question about bows from Imre Nagy they are quite nice but models you tried had big heavy siyahs, have you tried or you know someone who shot tatar and assyrian model? they have much lighter siyahs and im intrested how they would perform
for the price they are very good
Armin Hirmer yeah i agree, but do you know something about this 2 models i wrote?
That forward khatra with the Yumi lol. I have seen them do it in a movie but....who knows. Side khatra makes more sense and doesnt take as much effort to get the bow back into place
Do you have the facility to shoot out to longer ranges, example, 100 meters, I would be interested in knowing what aiming methods you use, and which of these bows has better longer range accuracy?
Unfortunately not...
I'm thinking the weight of the longer bow limbs or heavier siyahs must act a bit like stabilisers (as on Olympic recurve bows)?
Hope you don’t mind but I fast forwarded to the longbows🧐. I shoot longbow. Great video, Armin. Cheers.👍😎🇨🇦🏹
Armin, have you ever tried designing your own bow, maybe even manufacturing them? I bet there are about 40.5 k subscribers who would be interested in buying them
Haha maybe a special edition one day
To do an exhaustive scientific study of this fascinating topic it seems to me that you would need to be a bowyer. A series of bows would need to be built with identical handles. The bows would be made with various lengths. They would need to be made it the same materials. Bows of different mass/weight would need to be made of each length. And even the distribution of the weight along the length could be varied. It would take years. If you wanted to study bows of different designs it would take a lifetime!
Agree
Somehow missed this very interesting video 😢😭 Rectifying that now😅
Great, now I want a triangle bow
They shoot great. Nice and fast. The limbs are nice and thin but stable.
@@Daylon91 Hi 🙂, I'm interested in getting one of those triangle bows also. I tried to order the Kadesh bow from AF but they're not shipping to the UK at the moment due to the Coronavirus. That Babylon bow looks identical though, do you know who manufactures it? Thanks.
it literally sounds like a minecraft bow
I too prefer the downside it just seems to come more natural.👍🏼🏹🇺🇸
What is khatra?
I have this 35kg @ 90cm, bamboo yumi. A khatra is not an easy thing for this bow. But i use this bow what it is meant for, to kill a peace of paper at any distance. And because i am left handed the Japanese won't like me anyway.
you need to use the torque method
@@jake4194 I find it difficult for these heavy bows... I "heard" there is a secret "wave away" method... And i can only say that this is easier to prevent the arrows to cut my 77# yumi into two halves.. (1/3x2/3)
After you pull the bow back to full draw apply a little bit of left twist on the bow (thumb draw arrow on right side)
when you shoot try to keep a loose ish grip on the bow and the bow should rotate to varying degrees depending on how tight you grip how much torque etc.. the bow will do most of the work, it's not a forced movement.
He's mounting the arrows on the inside of the handle
Sooo many choices.. I can totally see myself becoming a bow addict . I hope it doesn't affect my marriage 😂
If it does, it would be the wrong woman anyway hahaha
Hmm, if your karma can keep up with you mantra, you get khatra..
🖖 👍
✨🧸✨🙂👍
Curunoo has really caused a dent in my wallet and I clicked on this video ?????? Now I NEED a Babylon???? Oh well better start selling a kidney
Hahaha if you like the one in the video, I can make you a good price
@@ArminHirmer what is draw weight on this bow and at what length ,
Would be handy if various bow companies not just gave the standard 28" weight but gave the weight at each length up to their claimed draw max ,
But am interested
As much as you have given me free of charge in your great videos , I feel I should try to pay back
For sure once this silly fear porn panic of curunoo is over I would love to go to Malta for a course or sign up for course that you give in Europe somewhere
Send details on bow and perhaps???
@@mickjenner6697 can you send me an email or fb message for this please? thanks
Hey Armin .
Bows are never accurate
The arrows are .😝
When bows start flying down range
And hitting stuff . Then I worry .
🤪🤪🤪🤪