Kata and Shadowboxing Are NOT THE SAME
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- Опубликовано: 7 май 2021
- Kata and Shadow Boxing aren't the same thing.. despite how many karate boys may tell you they are.
Huge thanks to my boys @KARATEbyJesse and @fighttips for helping me out with this one!
Now, when it comes to the karate community, there have been some people who speak with the intent of spreading the "karate culture" without wanting to ENHANCE it!! Kata, like Jesse speaks about is an awesome way of creating tradition through repetition, and it certainly serves its purpose (as much as its purpose may have changed from back in the day!). Howeverrrr, shadowboxing, is much different.. in fact, its different than drilling is in general! Mr Shane Fazen helps us break down a bit of that as well!!
Kata doesn't have to be kata, it could also be referring to as forms which you'll find in ITF and WT Taekwondo or most Kung Fu styles like Wing Chun, Wushu and more!
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Karate, Taekwondo, Muay Thai, Kung , MMA, UFC, Sensei Seth, Kata, Kumite, Sparring, Fight, Boxing, Kick, Side Kick, Yoko Geri, Roundhouse Kick, Spinning Wheel Kick, Tricking, Bottlecap Challenge 
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Big Thanks to Jesse Enkamp and Shane Fazen for the knowledge here!
Jesse: ruclips.net/channel/UCRIeMHsEdzA9RroG19kXdYg
Shane: ruclips.net/user/FightTipsVideos
Dope! Great colab, great points, great video!
kata is advanced meditation
in judo and in kungfu you do kata with more persons (1vs 1) like a movie fight
in kungfu one group lean a kata and another group leanred another kata (tao) and they fit perfectly
Box sings....
Kata is the physical mapping for meditative exploration of waza... Kata can be used as shadow boxing - by intent of different applications during the physical form
Shadow boxing is continuation of training _ alone... Using the learned technique in solitary control, the training (with another) adds variety, and sparring adds range training (interior & exterior evasion/exploitation) that leads back to shadow boxing for the mental intention during meditative exploration
Gaining mindfulness while active is situational comprehension and problem solving_ meditation can be passive for rest, active for physical memory
Thumbs up if you do both kata and shadowboxing!
yes I do both , actually I do poomsae ( kata of taekwondo 😁) and shadow sparring.
Okay I lied, I just thumbs-upped your video because I like you I want to thank you for your contributions! I shadowbox, but I've never had a TMA background so I never learned any katas (parents wouldn't let me!) 😢
I shadow sparring... basically outside of class when we’re not wearing protective equipment, me and my buddy will spar with each other with NO CONTACT. This way we practice techniques still but it feels more alive and interactive than just shadow boxing
You do kata? Yo Fightips when we gonna see you collab with karate nerd and seth?
Ayeee.. well, sorta 😂
Domo arigato for having me on Sensei Seth! 🙏🥋👊
Thanks for the knowledge! I actually had no idea about the Kata being a “non martial arts” thing
Your channel is the best bro I've been following you since the first trip to Okinawa.
@@eggsiclefishstick5569 Thanks for supporting my work! 🙏
@@SenseiSeth It’s considered the backbone of Japanese society 💪
@jesse I have a question/comment. You say that Kata has lost it's meaning due to the sands of time, but a lot of legitimate schools are not that far removed from the founders (Funakoshi Sensei passed in 1957, Miyagi Sensei 1953, Mabuni Sensei 1952, Otsuka Sensei 1982). I think it's more a function of politics (whether it's regarding sport rules, how it became mainstream, etc) and mysticism that went unchallenged that made it that way. Thoughts? (big fan of your channel btw)
Karate basics=alphabet
Karate moving basic = words
Kata= basic sentence (the dog is brown)
1 step sparring = pre set conversion I.e. “hi my name is Jordan” “nice to meet you “
Shadow boxing=poetry
Sparring=conversation
Fighting = serious debate
Self defense = argument
Defending yourself from a firearm= verbal abuse
@@christopherwalker810 hahaha
I would call shadowboxing freestyling and not necessary poetry
I would rather call bunkai poetry
@@IbrahimKhalil-bt9yh why is that?
Jesse: Wearing full gi, in his dojo, proper camera setup
Shane: Sweater, on the couch, filmed on his phone
I’m an overachiever 😩
@@KARATEbyJesse Så svenskt 😂👏
It's obvious they're different.
I'm 14-4-2 in my shadow boxing fights, but 22-1-2 in Kata fights
The founder of Kyokushin termed karate in 3 ways - Kion being the alphabet, Kata as the sentences, and Kumitie as being the conversation.
May I ask what Kumitie is?
@@LittleRapGuy sparring / fights
So basically, kata is practicing form with pre-determined scenarios and moves and shadowboxing is free flowing application of form with more realistic, imperfect, and spontaneous situations
No. if you practice kata as pre-determined scenarios then you have missed the point.
@@Cailean_MacCoinnich If katas are not form for pre-determined scenarios, that what are they?
@@mlkvblendzior I could be wrong but this is what I understood katas are solo drills, to help you get muscle memory of how to do certain action correctly and shadow boxing is you applying those drills in free flowing application.
@@mlkvblendzior For me Kata works well for situations where you don't want to overthink things. If you are ambushed there isnt time to come up with a plan. Its good to respond with a few moves that cover as much ground as possible until you can get your head in the game. A lot of Katas cover similar territory using gross motor movements for attack and defense over a wide area. That said I only have a couple short katas I focus on currently.
@@paulcastro8790 Not really. In kata I often seen moves that are between debatle at best and totally useless. For example - why in kata punchces are mostly thrown from armpit, while in combat you throw them mostly from the normal guard. Not to mention about other goofy strikes like spear hand. Covering as much ground with as little effort as possible can excerciesd with much simpler and more efficient drills.
So the whole defence of katas by karate nerds (which I've used to be) looks like "We've spent a lot of time on bullshit and now we are looking any means to justify it".
Sensei Seth being the Tony Stark of the RUclips Martial Art Universe (YMAU, it's a thing now!). You defo are the glue that brings all these youtubers together! :D
Hmmm.. I wouldn’t mind having Tony stark money!! Lok
Facts
I wouldn't mind being a part of that collab.
Soooo kata is kinda like learning the words
Shadow boxing is rehearsing the conversation
Sparring/fighting is having the conversation
also basketball analogy was dope
I actually said this almost exactly but cut it because I started Rambljng 😂 exactly how I feel!
I've always seen it this way:
Kata is about turning technique to muscle memory;
Shadowboxing is meant for single-person practice.
Love it
There is also some modern new Katas, which are "non-traditional" and actually really just "sets" to train some body mechanics by repeating patterns.
Example: "The Kicking Kata" of Kyokushin Karate, "Sokugi Taikyoku Sono", in which "Kyokushin Crescent & Axe-Kicks" are trained.
Makes sense!
I can't see the word kata without hearing it in Jesse's voice. I knew we'd be seeing him just by the title haha great video.
This made me think maybe all my years of air drumming will pay off one day when I get a set. I've been doing drum kata my whole life!
What kata is your favorite?
Same 😂
Yooooo you all put this in a way that I clearly understand both of these better than before. Going to add these both back into my routine more efficiently
As a Wing Chun practitioner myself, this resonates with me quite a bit. Most schools will have you spending an irrational amount of forms/katas and then instruct you to mechanically repeat those movements with a partner, and they would call it a "fight". We should totally start learning from Karate and other TMAs with a solid tradition of practical applications.
These crossovers are amazing.
Diving deeper into topics and analysing nuances is interesting and good content. Have a like Seth 👍🏻
Thanks! 🙏
The best description I came up with was "coreographed shadow boxing"
I always saw Katas as a cool-down between drills or workouts. A way to keep practicing while resting.
Always enjoy your videos. I agree that kata is excellent homework for when you just get started in martial arts. Now that I am older, it is also excellent for trying to maintain balance, flexibility, and coordination. As always, thank you 🙏
Thank you, my last "coach" said that same stupid statement. I appreciate you breaking this down!
For me forms are really helpful for helping people learn techniques. It forces them to really focus down on a few techniques in addition to giving them a general idea of how the technique would be used. It's also useful to practice because it forces you to use and practice techniques that you might not otherwise incorporate into other exercises, since most people tend to stick to what they're already comfortable with when they're doing things like shadowboxing or bag work. It's not a replacement for those things, but can get you better results when done in tandem with those other exercises.
100%! Kata and shadowboxing are two separate but equally important exercises.
Bam!
@@SenseiSeth I prefer
BANG!
I'm the kind of person who enjoys kata because it shows the technique and how it goes in a sequence, then we go into bunkai to see the application of each technique in each kata. Then shadowbox in order play around with the bunkai and techniques from the kata. That's how we do it in my dojo, in Goju ryu
Perfect reason to do Kata!
@@SenseiSeth and I understand why you teach kata, sensei Seth. I actually enjoy your videos. Still hoping you go to an Okinawan dojo or to Okinawa so you can compare your US style of karate with the country of origin later on this year
Thanks! Would love to
That was a really good explanation and analogy.
Apology not necessary, sir. I subbed specifically because I enjoy hearing your perspective about whatever topic you decide to highlight 😁
😂🙏
Well said my man. I think there is a little more to kata than what you've said, but generally I agree. One aspect of kata that I like is taking basics and making them flow.
sensei seth bringing in the big guns 😂
Gotta do something!
I think your analogy was spot on and easy to understand
Thanks Robert!
I used to hate doing kung fu forms, but now i find it very relaxing and kind of therapeutic
I love it when I see a Karate Sensei who looks good shadow boxing. Good hand flow. Open not closed to other styles. Very smart. 🥋✌👍🤙
your jabs are looking nice, Sensei Seth
Your analogy of using basketball and breaking it down to its component pieces is way better than mine. I used to use baseball. You have batting practice, you practice bunting, the coach wants you to do nothing but hit to the opposite field. You're at second base, and someone does nothing but hit ground balls to you - and they ask you to fire it home.
Then there's inter-squad teams. And then - the big game. But I think I like your basketball analogy better, because there's more individual skills in basketball that's needed than baseball.
Many thanks. Good video.
I think most karate practitioners like metaphors a lot👍 also on the way to 90k🔥
👏👏👏
I feel good already knowing sensei is back, G'day Seth, welcome back. Love from an Aussie in down under 🤙🔥🇭🇲 interesting video, learning bout Kata & different to shadow boxing.
This was actually recorded beforehand 😕 kiiinda back
@@SenseiSeth that's good enough for me mate, least your with us in spirit or chi...hmmm 😋
My sensei says individual techniques are like letters and kata is like alphabet. Some combinations in sequences we call kihon are like words. I really like the analogy
I see them as more like two sides of the same coin instead of as two exactly identical things that exist simultaneously without variation. Good video thanks for posting!
I feel like this is the perfect reasoning behind practical application of the movements in kata, and the combination of the two. The moments themselves have a flow from one another, and into one another. That doest mean that each move has to absolutely come after one another. But more than once I've noticed both in a random fight and full contact sparing, I've noticed specific sections maybe even really just two movements that come free from a kata.
I was kinda 50/50 on kata for a while. Now, especially for solo training, it can definitely be useful. I tried to relearn my old taekwando katas, and it was definitely a challenge, I remember certain parts but not all of them. And throughout doing it, I could feel my breath getting slightly heavier and my legs felt it more. Plus the mental training of remembering and overall learning. You're training your brain to remember things which can be very important in a fight.
Sensei Seth on the road to 100k subscribers this summer! 👊
Yessir!!
I’ve been out of karate practice for years now, and I’ve been thinking about Kata a lot. IMO, a kata essentially summarises a bunch of techniques in a sort of flow, which you can break down into different techniques and applications, and go from there.
I look at katas as specific workouts. As an adult who was never athletic during childhood and adolescence, I understand their importance because movements that might feel natural to an athletic person need to be built afresh in the muscle memory of someone like me. To give you an example of my lack of athleticism, it took me years to figure out how to actually throw a punch without being totally stiff, and my punching still isn't any good, but I can tell that it is closer to the "correct" technique (i.e., one that will actually work).
For year i thought kata was pointless because i'm not gonna do that if i'm in a fight so i took Muay Thai. now i understand tyvm for the explanation especially the basketball comparison
This is very good info.
If you’ve ever been a police officer or served in the military, every time you’ve done drilling with your service weapon you’ve done kata.
Think about ;)
You look really good! I'm glad your back in action!
Not back in action, old recording 😔
You had me thinking you were superhuman. Lol
Hope you have a fast recovery!
I was thinking the same 🙁 Wishing you a quick recovery, mate.
I liked this video and I agree, also what Jesse said made me think that I would absolutely suck at Japanese kata because I literally never learnt a single kata in the proper order so I just made up my own with the moves I learnt in class because that made more sense in my child head. (I still think that was a good decision)
Oh I’m terrible at Kata (maybe because I don’t practice it) 😬😂
I do both. Kata helps me create moves I wouldn't think of. And shadow boxing helps me apply those moves
Finally someone who knows and can give the answers!
Loved this video. Kata is a good teaching tool for those who understand how to use it. Kata is also good for those looking to practice Karate-Do or the artistic side of Karate. Kata can have different value to different people. The key is honesty. If you are practicing kata without sparring, don’t expect to be good at fighting. If you are practicing sparring without kata, don’t expect your combat movements to look like one of the Machida brothers. That being said, neither is the wrong path. But be realistic about what you are practicing and why you are practicing it.
That ending cracked me up XD
I don’t know what kata is 😂, but forms are really nice to practice transition, and technique so we can commit it to muscle memory. Don’t want to have to think about it when we need it. I love shadow boxing. It’s like taking print and then learning cursive. Thanks for being great. Now for a question. Have you ever used a side kick as a throw/take down? I don’t know if I’m just lucky but I’ve had some great success with it.
Forms in kung fu is like very wild kata, with tons of lost applications
Great Video!
Agreed! Awesome video. Agree 10000%. Kata /form is just a drill and a way to transfer information. It was never meant to be a way to measure fighting ability or rank
I've always looked at Kata as an encyclopedia of techniques that works in compliment with written catalogue techniques . Its a foundation for fluid free style sparing.
Yes!
A lot of the oldest kata in existence look like short repetitive drills. Look at Hsing I kung fu for example.
The longest kata I’ve ever seen is from Lohan kung fu. It’s 256 movements long and designed to teach body mechanics and rhythm more so than fighting techniques (although it has those, two man drills too).
When you work your kata, you can repeat certain movements over and over and then return to the sequence. You can drill individual moves from the kata on their own. You can start doing a kata and then flow into shadow boxing. You can do the footwork from the kata with different hands or no hands at all. You can train kata without thinking about fighting applications and just work on body mechanics. Do kata fast, slow, backwards...
Try to find the “themes” in the beginning of kata and use those ideas to decipher the rest of the form.
And if you haven’t binged watched Iain Abernethy’s videos about kata yet, go do that right now.
i do practice both forms and shadow simply because the form is a great way to practice the moves and keep them sharp, and maeby improve them, and shadow to actually use them if i can and to practice without more people.
Great breakdown Sensei Seth! I like to practice Tai Chi, not for the moves but for the purposeful focus of my base/posture/structure/balance. The same approach can be used when learning a new technique from whatever style you want to pick. Going "Tai Chi slow" is great to make sure you're moving the way you should be moving, a lot can be overlooked when going too fast. I like to go Tai Chi slow when learning new takedowns or throws too, I've learned how to really capitalize on the method and I think many other people could learn faster/proper when doing it.
If you can't do it slow, why should you be able to do it fast?
Thanks for the content!
Love these videos and the videos on other karate styles. I’m a kyokushin black belt and like learning about other styles of karate
Nice! Jesse does. Great job with those videos!
I love the points you brought as well as you guests. I liked the point Jesse made about Katas not being meant only for solo training. This can be seen across several Japanese martial arts. There are Kata in some Japanese Jujitsu styles, Judo, Aikido and in Japanese weapons such as the Jō for example. These katas involve two participants which help to bridge the gap between techniques and application. Granted that these katas are generally shorter than karate katas where you often have a single kata or groups of katas that represent an entire style or concept of combat. Take for example the motions of changing levels of Kushanku (Kankudai), close quarters engagement as implied in Nainhanchi (Tekki) or defending against an armed assailant as in Jutte.
One of my Taiji teacher told me "you must go from no form through form to no form" .
Meaning the functional practice designs the form then practice of the form makes you better at functional movements.
Problem in most taiji school is that they only do forms...
But taiji isn't a martial art.
@@Cailean_MacCoinnich yes it is. it's root is in fighting, and it has a competitive practice like and sumo or greco-roman wrestling called pushing hands. It just evolved in a more health oriented practice.
And most modern schools only do forms. Hence you believing it's not a martial art.
@@Cailean_MacCoinnich There's a bare few schools out there that practice it in the martial form, but when it is, it works out to being primarily a stand-up grappling system. However, it's mostly the chi gung (qi gong... various spellings) exercises from it that have widely spread, and some of what is often called "taiji" are actually chi gung exercises lifted from other styles of kung fu.
@@Cailean_MacCoinnich If it's of any interest to you you can watch this ruclips.net/video/zOnEARtQYRk/видео.html
Love the outro beat.
To make it simple, Kata is drilling. You work body mechanics for a specific set of movement and muscle group. Shadowboxing is fighting without an opponent, where you try to invoke reflex, reaction, counters, pressure, mind game, etc. Both are essential to any martial art and/or combat sport.
I always thought that kata was primarily a way to pass an art down before we had cameras or RUclips (for younger readers, as hard as this is to believe, RUclips wasn’t very good in the 19th century). The fighting methods, techniques and applications were laid out in the katas. Memorizing and then teaching others the forms were a way of keeping the art alive. I don’t think they are useless now but I think there is less of a need for them as there are much more efficient training methods and better, more comprehensive ways of passing the arts along.
and thank you for the rant. Subsrcibed
Hey any advice for someone trying to start my own Martial arts RUclips Channel?
which kata are you performing at 2:26?
Made me think, I'm glad I did this as a kid. As a young boy in safe space karate it allowed me practice my kicks and punches over and over. If you have a kata with 10 side kicks and you do it 10 times in one class, you've just done 100 side kicks plus whatever else. It is exactly like writing lines. It's pure repetition till you understand the moves, then you can use them on your own.
Taira Masaji, the head of Okinawa Gojuryu Kenkyu Kai has great bunkai, he changes very little when going from kata to applications.
I am really surprised that I didn’t hear kata spoken about in a better light.
It’s not just strikes and techniques
It’s a lexicon of the systems methodology of fighting including the techniques mindset powerdelivery rules of movement
At the highest levels kata becomes a spiritual exercise.
On fun thing my Dojo did was a) learn kata, b) learn the one-steps involved in kata, c) Randori using kata. Still formulaic but closer to an actual fight and I believe it did help in sparring.
Nice! Awesome
Thank you for saying this
Oss Sensei Seth!!! I’ve always thought of kata as a really good foundational exercise for stance-work, balance and leg strengthening. Plus if you crank through like 6 or 7 katas at full speed and power without stopping it’s a damn good workout hahaha
I agree!!
Nice video
They are basically meditation in motion. It's like practicing the four limbs of yoga in martial arts form. (abstinences), niyama (observances), asana (posture), pranayama (breathing), pratyahara (withdrawal), dharana (concentration), dhyana (meditation) and samadhi (absorption).
I like to add the variable speeds and intensities of shadow boxing to my kata
it’s amazing how you can come up with your own martial arts from doing shadow visualizations with a martial art you have watched from others
...what? Haha I don’t follow
What if I do Shadow Kata?
such a good Video if i would have known anything about basketball which i dont
Kata is like doing the alphabet your doing a couple of moves and stances in a order, while shadowboxing is like an freestyle doing different punches acting like there is an opponent
I had no idea there's even a comparison between the two
I still think it's a good idea to regularly go over your kata as a regular practice are least 3xs a week. I made the mistake of not and now I only know a few and can't teach the rest. I am restarting the learning prices of basic goju ryu kata so I can start with private lessons.
I like to relearn them as I need to teach them!
I started out as fat frick doing karate
I'm still a fat frick
BUT now I have better balance and posture and also slightly better stances and I think it's because of the katas that I have practiced over and over again
Also I think basic katas like naihanchi or gekisai can be done as warmups??
Couldn’t agree more!
I always look at as something past shadow boxing really. Not better, but if you cant shadow box you cant understand kats either. This goes back to some old karate texts were the kata is viewed as a dictionary or repository of the technique that makes ip the art.
this was cool
If kata may not change - why do they differ between styles? Did someone break the rule and added their own improvements?
Everybody is always taking about that if karatekas do full contact they need to fix their striking, what’s your thoughts and solutions?
3 cheers for the algorithm !!!
In HEMA there are drills found in many sabre manuals, There's even one called solo drill found in "The art of defense on foot" by roworth 1798 which is basically a kata. Since sabre was a military weapon taught to a large number of recruits, the use of form or drills was widely use by instructors. I get the feeling that modern martial arts because they aren't taught to a large amount of practitioners at the same time, as old close combat weapons used to be taught in military training, there's no connection of kata and drill for most of them.
I think of kata as much like what soldiers do on the parade ground. Watching soldiers 'square bashing' its crystal clear that what they're doing is a billion miles away from laying face down in mud, shooting and being shot at during a battle. But the things they do on the parade ground, not dropping their rifles and always knowing exactly where they're supposed to be and exactly where they're mates are, is kind of important.
For me, the kata of karate-do are:
* exercises that include representations of techniques passed down from the kata creators
* a performance art form (like high-diving or gymnastics or dance which are judged by their aesthetics)
* moving meditation, like a form of yoga
Deciding to focus on one or another aspect of kata is a personal choice, and I appreciate all the different points of view.
This is exactly how I teach jata over shadowboxing.
Kata is very clean cut moves. Shadowboxing is freeform.
Can you review silat plsssssssss
As a practitioner I like shadowboxing but as an instructor I like Kata. When a student does their Kata I can tell where, when and how they are failing or excelling. If they are shadowboxing I don't know if they did certain moves to counter a made up opponent but if they are doing Kata I know exactly where and when they may or may not have made a mistake, even if it's just a slight error of body position or transition of body mechanic.
Glad to see you’re recovering well from your appendectomy Seth..
this video is good... when do teakwando and karate practitioners really learn to fight? .. i never thought about it but its pretty stupid if they just do katas and nothing else
Kata of a syllabus of moves - applications and body methods. You practice them all at once in sequence so you don't forget anything, but drill them individually to perfect them.
Shadowboxing is just as you described - it is not drilling moves.
The reason why kata gets compared to shadow boxing is to encourage the visualization and not just repeat a pattern without intent.
Just saw the title and thought well obviously it can't be the same