Traditional Martial Arts are doomed to die
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- Опубликовано: 8 ноя 2023
- Q&A with the Coach
What kind of lifespan can we expect from traditional martial arts now that the public is much more aware of modern combat sports?
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Ramsey Dewey is a retired pro fighter, combat sports coach, referee, and fight commentator… and occasional musician based in Shanghai, China.
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I fought professionally in Mixed Martial arts, Sanda, Muay Thai, K1 and American kickboxing from 2004-2011 when I was forced to retire due to a broken skull and being blinded in one eye. I hold a brown belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Black belts in multiple traditional martial arts, including Taekwondo and kyokushin karate. I also train in catch wrestling, sambo, taijiquan, judo, and boxing.
I currently coach at the Animal MMA gym, the Extreme Fight Lab, and the Mordor Fight Club, all in Shanghai, China. 
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Do you know the history of your martial art? How long has it existed for? How much has it changed and evolved since it’s inception? How long will it continue to exist?
Yes I do bjj and I love the fact Roberto Pedreira and Robert Drysdale are using evidence to show the true history of bjj rather than the creation myth of bjj that everyone is told. I think it’ll stick around. The sport has fractured into specialized factions. Hopefully it’ll be put back together in practice but will continue to have so many modes of competition. I don’t think that’ll happen. I think that specialization will cause a greater fraction down to the art.
I am one of those hema guys, and you might be suprised, but its reenactment thing growth up to academic research (it's rare, but it is serious), and its hitting each other with swords growth up to half-proffesional combat sport, with international ranking and paid judges. The techniques persist, because from XV century up to modern fencing they haven't changed much - eepeist could be suprised, but all epee techniques were already described in XV century - for example in Leckuchner messer fightbook. Just because its how you fight. And of course wrestling part of hema fencing, absent in modern olympic fencing, when look at, is nothing different from wrestling and judo; but its nice to think that it was so well described like 500 years ago, and dates probably much further. There are some peculiarities about earliest fencing traditions, mostly related to footwork, but reenactors and researches try to unravel their secrets. Not without benefits for learning combat, yet 100% certain that we can never be 100% certain wether this is how it worked / looked like back in the day.
Savate has existed for about 200 years. It started off for Street Defense, but it eventually became a Sport. Pretty much no one in USA likes this sport. Personally, I practice the Street Defense aspects of it. Like most martial arts, it has Devolved into a Sport/Commercial venture. I don't think it will exist very long in USA. But that is fine, it's like my own Secret Art ;)
I have been practicing Daito ryu aikijujutsu it is a old version of grappling I think 1200 yrs old no one does it so I find it fun
Yep. Aikido. Developed by Morihei Ueshiba out of daito-ryu aikijujitsu from a period roughly 1930-1969. Depending which style of aikido is practiced, some have changed/evolved more, some less. How long will it continue to exist is hard to say. Numbers have certainly been dwindling for a couple decades now.
The year is 2167.
After a grueling test the MMA student passes. And is rewarded by being allowed to add to his traditional early 2000 style tribal tatoo, signif6ing his higher rank. He can now also be in the proud company of those who are allowed to use the traditional Bad Boy shorts.
😂
‘Hail Ye, Mighty Chuck of Liddell’
He also gets to watch the rip from ancient VHS "King of the Cage - Wild n Wet" in the masters locker room
LOL!
You know what I'd like to see...a separation and distinction from "Traditional martial arts" to "historical martial arts" in the same sense that we see Hema, it's very into recreating history of techniqal use but it pressure tests and criticaly evaluates the information previous humans left for us to explore...that'd be amazing.
You may be interested in my channel if you want to learn about how we interpret and understand the historical practice of Chinese martial arts.
This. Definitely this. I am very much up for this.
@@thescholar-general5975 subbed!
What a sensible and pragmatic approach to suggest
@@zompreacher 🙏
Spot on about Taekwondo. I take Tang Soo Do and at my school we readily acknowledge its roots in Shotokan. You can see it in the forms. It's blatant. We also don't pretend it is some ancient system or feel we can't make any changes, revisions, or improvements. And we added BJJ to our school because our instructor saw the lack of any ground fighting in TSD as it is now.
tang soo do is shotokan
@@ektran4205 pretty much. There are some differences in the forms and some additional kicks not found in Shotokan but no denying it's a huge influence.
@@bryanwaldron9076 shotokan was te first stle of karate to be exported outside of japan
I started with Tang Soo Do in 1979 and didn't realize it was Shotokan until many years later. A few years ago I saw an article written by a black belt from my old TSD school where he was saying that MMA wasn't all that and that his TSD training was just as effective if not more so. I asked him if he'd ever gone to an MMA gym and sparred with anyone there, and he said he didn't need to do that because he already knew his art was sufficient. When I countered that he absolutely didn't know that because he hadn't tried it he said I was "getting mad." I told him no, I'm just calling your bluff; don't say you know something if you haven't tried it. This is something I've run into with a lot of TMA practitioners.
Have you read the book A KILLING ART? The author of that book also points out the founder of taekwondo studied Shotokan, but hid the connection to Shotokan.
Judo was founded in 1882 by Jigoro Kano which makes it 141 years old. It stems from Japanese Jujitsu
There is this tendency to view "Judo" as relatively unchanged since that time, despite how the "reality on the ground" has drastically shifted. Jigoro Kano didn't want competition in the form of tournaments, although he did encourage sparring. The focus on competition in Judo is now so emphasized that it is impossible to get a black belt in Judo without participating in Judo tournaments and collecting enough points to "earn" your black belt.
This emphasis on competition, and winning competition, has created a culture in Judo whereby most schools don't train Judo techniques which are not allowed in tournament competition (as you might accidentally do them without thinking and get disqualified); which has led to a massive shrinking of Judo techniques which are taught (as much as 50% - 60% of the techniques are now no longer allowed in competition). The direction of Judo development is now not based on self-defense and self-betterment, as Jigoro Kano envisioned, but, instead, is altered to make Judo more exciting to spectators and to thereby increase the popularity of the art.
Thus raises the question: is Judo the same martial art, with the same techniques, values, and outcomes which were envisioned in 1882? Or has Judo changed beyond recognition?
Archery in all it's forms has got to be an ancient martial art, it certainly has a special place in the culture of the UK, agincourt and all that. Whilst it is true that a modern olympic bow is vastly different from a traditional self bow or composite bow, but the principle is the same and universally understood from the most primitive to the most sophisticated societies.
Absolutely! This reminds me of wrestling as well.
Some societies didn't develop the bow and arrow though... so it really cant be considered as universal as wrestling.
@@linuxman7777You are right, I just checked and it seems the Australilian aboriginals did not have bows, but they seem to be the only ones. However they did have ranged weapons so the concept of pitching a sharp stick at a distant target would not be alien. I will revise my statement Fighting with clubs, everything from Arnis to Bataireacht has got to be ancient.
But if we are talking fighting vs HEAVY longbow I think we are looking at the complete degradation from fighting to sport.
Now sport is good. So not degrading sport, but if we needed bows to fight again the sport is the wrong place to start.
Well grappling yes every county has their own grappling style, wrestling is your talking french *“greco roman”* style or freestyle is only 100 years old.
I got to learn Aikido for free as a kid at the local Y... I think it was very important for me to learn it. Not to be able to defend myself, but it helped me to learn how I learn. dedication, practice, discipline, coordination, confidence in my body. Ya, I learned a lot in a few years.
And honestly these lessons are probably more valuable and practical in your life than knowing how to defend yourself physically in a fight
@@noborikoon until you need to defend yourself..., if you're serious about something you will learn those (discipline, dedication etc) whether it is aikido, bjj, mma, karate
I think it's the true reason traditional martial arts are important.
Ya, I took boxing, BJJ, much later, but in those early years, the traditional martial arts gave me the confidence to be able to walk away from a fight, and not fall into peer pressure. Just what i needed back then.
@@tprnbs same can be said about jiu jitsu, what if you get crushed by something heavy, good luck berimbolo'ing your way out of that one, should've done bodybuilding instead
In french martial arts, there was no ranking either. In the salle d'armes (training room), there was the teacher, the assistant(s) aka prévôt(s) and the students, which formed the bulk of the group.
In Japan, there is no ranking system either. Everyone has a black belt. The ranking system was invented in the USA (to improve the commercial value of the teaching). The ranking system does have a value to set up the base from which you progress. However, I've found the best and practical school (in traditional martial art especially) were the ones that didnt apply the ranking system... everyone could train with everyone
Jigoro Kano wanted to make Judo more educational in nature, vs how Japanese Jiu Jitsu was so he developed a belt system like how a school system has a grade system. It caught on quite a bit because it was relevant for the times, as martial arts lost their real life combat value with the invention of gunpowder.
So nowadays martial arts seem to be more about fitness and learning than about actually becoming a warrior.
Everywhere in the world where martial arts is practiced they didn't have a ranking system especially those who joined the military in the 1900s and learned Western art like boxing, fencing, stick fighting, and bayonet.
@@vonb2792 Kyokushin had two belts. White and black. White belts would fight black belts and would improve at a significant rate.
@@aurelianspodarec2629I like that
Great video. That was a good question, and I love the way you answered it. I appreciate that you were respectful of people's religious, spiritual beliefs, or lack thereof. You are an inspiration. I learned a lot too. Thank you, sir.
Awesome video. Not many people know that Shotokan Karate is the precursor of TKD. Glad you mentioned it.
But where did the kicks come from? I dont got deep knowledge or experience in either style of shotokan or taekwondo.
But i remember both reading and hearing about shotokan not having much fancy kicks in its original form.
So where did the spinning and flying stuff come from?
@FrodeFalch Good question. I don't know too much about Shotokan, but I have seen basically all of the TKD kicks in various styles of Karate. I'm guessing that because of the ruleset for sparring TKD became specialized in these kicks and refined the technique over time.
@@FrodeFalchthere is nothing unique about Taekwondo’s kicks, literally all of them are in shotokan and all they did was put an emphasis on them over other things. The fact that it needs to be explained in 2023 is still kinda wild to me. The only reason I reason its not addressed directly is due to tensions with Japan due to WW2 and Japans genocidal occupation of the Korean Penisula
@@FrodeFalch modern karate high kicks come from Savate which evolved from sword (fencing, dueling). Karate in the early 20th century was also influenced by western boxing. Old Okinawan Te had no high kicks, and it was basically evolved from older Chinese arts.
@@FrodeFalch From the French Savate.
Thank you so much for answering my question, Ramsey! I really appreciate it.
A lot old traditional techniques are not taught properly or not taught at all. There’s always that miscommunication or language barrier between East and west, plus many traditionalist styles (wether it’s in China, or Japan or any other traditional country) don’t want to adapt old techniques into modern ways to show they can actually work.
Btw, I’m a Bajiquan and Goju Ryu and my teachers always focus on modernizing old techniques to show how it can be applied today. My teachers told us, “learn the forms rigidly but apply them in ways that work best for you as an individual”
I love this. My kung fu teacher is the same way. A Phoenix eye fist,by itself, is goofy. You set it up with some in fighting and it's ugly. Rapid fist with set up? Win. A 6 to 12 elbow uppercut after a one handed clinch to the back of the head? Xingyi.
Folks tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater, I think. If you train it under pressure, you can make it happen. Folks just have to be real, brave, and willing to put it in.
By the way, I'm jealous. I've always wanted to try Baji
btw in america you can buy the belts
@@ektran4205 that’s the other issue, the thing about west is that we focus on quick improvements without taking our time. Even though, a lot of teachings involve patience but many of us have rejected patience in exchange for quick results.
A lot of eastern countries have the concept of patience whether because of culture or Buddhism or Hinduism or Daoism or whatever other philosophy/ancient beliefs. It’s integral to them
@@bw5020 Bajiquan is really fun and has a lot of great techniques.
I’m glad you added your thoughts about because you notice that some old traditional eastern styles use same techniques as traditional western styles but named it different or practice it differently
Yep, my teachers are the same and are very pragmatic and you do have this problem with traditional styles, yes very traditional with the style because we train with Japanese instructors, but this is what stuff like Kata Bunkai is for.
To hear you talk about HEMA alongside other martial arts so casually is incredibly validating
I felt the same way.
I personally think that there is a future for traditionally safe martial arts. Kids won't start martial arts with MMA. And very few people who never did any sport will move into MMA when they are already adults.
Kids need karate, taekwondo, judo etc to start their martial art journey. The reality is that I am close to fifty and while I enjoy exercise I never ever had the need to punch someone in the face. That applies to most people I know.
I think wrestling is best for kids.
agree
The kids classes are not really traditional, they just became common practice as a daycare program to help pay the bills. That practice was a major source of watering down the perception of what martial arts were, but it did help keep open doors of gyms for authentic evening classes for longer. The demand for adult classes was and remains usually too low to cover rent. In the 90s at least, most of the credible guys in the CMA community were teaching out of their homes and in parks.
Alot of these "traditional Martial arts" are being exposed as frauds, which makes me wonder what were the ancient people really using as their martial art back then? and are they even effective even put in the present?
@@Moses_VIIWrestling is very hard on the body
Great video! Thank you!🙏
So in high school after doing Karate for basically my whole life I got my second degree brown belt. After this I started looking through the techniques I had been taught and started pressure testing them and making them work in sparring or at least trying to. After a lengthy process of about 6 months doing this I compiled a list of techniques that worked and techniques that I modified to make work, and realized I had just reinvented kick boxing. I left my school a few months later and moved to Kick Boxing and then to Catch Wrestling later.
The "modern martial arts" or combat sports or what have you are simply the traditional martial arts with all of the pomp and tradition stripped down to pure combat effectiveness. They are simply what the art was always intended as before people got too focused on uniforms and belts and stuff that doesn't actually help you win a fight.
There is no divide between "traditional" and "modern" martial arts. There are just schools that lost sight of what martial arts is actually about and those that didn’t, and that is winning a fight.
"realized I had just reinvented kick boxing". So funny, so true.
That's what I try to tell the Wing Chun and other TMA enthusiasts (many who don't even train, they just like to talk about why it is the best MA why they would train it if they did...haha..) that whenever someone takes their favorite MA, pressure tests it, and adapts it to live sparring or fighting, most of it ends up looking like the same kick boxing.
I have seen a few exceptions who can pull of some impressive, pretty, textbook techniques in an MMA fight that look like something from Karate Kid or a Kung-fu movie (Tenshin, Wonder Boy Thompson, Oliver Enkamp), but is very rare. I also think Kevin Lee demonstrates some legit ways of doing this.
Well, no, actually EVERY SINGLE MARTIAL ART EVER, everyone of the 3000 Kung Fu styles in China, all Silat, all Karate, all ancient Muay Boran, etc, they ALL were developed to defend against a common street attack by a thug.
Grab with one hand, two hands, choke, push, pull, single overhand, front kick, double leg, etc
They're not like Kickboxing.
Think at all of them like Krav Maga.
That's the point of the forms
Good on you for going through that process.
However, all striking sparring does tend to end up like kickboxing because it is kind of its own thing.
It's a particular approach and ruleset, so you do what works within that.
As mentioned above, none of your sparring will start with someone grabbing you, for instance.
Self-defence is not sparring is not fighting.
Though obviously there can be lots of overlap.
Kickboxing is literally karate & came from karate, but yes all striking styles look similar under real mma rules.
Pretty much what Bas Rutten did as well
I think it’s the opposite: mma proves that, for example, judo should return back to its origins, since original judo was more dangerous and combat oriented than the sport version that we usually see now. In fact Bjj came from original judo and so on most “modern” jujitsu methods (like Clark that came from Kawaishi)...
Judo is dangerous because you can train the moves at full speed against a resisting partner without needing an ambulance afterwards.
@@Reflectionmaterial Judo was a lot more dangerous when it was firstly created by Kano and his first “followers”. You should see world jujitsu federation method.
@@mattonthemoon225 great.
But how do you train their stuff at full speed against someone who is an expert grappler??
The answer. You don't.
You either mess each other up during training and will be to crippled to do anything in real life.
Or you end up doing choreographed stuff without resistance that will fall apart when shit hits the fan.
@@Reflectionmaterial you miss the fact that first judo had ground and grappling techniques (do you know where bjj came from?).
First judo was called Kano Jujitsu, it was a very complete martial art, it was trained with randori (free style combat with a subset of dangerous techniques) but it had a lot of dangerous techniques that today are not trained or only present into katas. If judo kept its striking and grappling background into the modern sport you will see a kudo and bjj mixed martial art.
@@mattonthemoon225 Judo has groundwork.
And again how do you train Kudo safely at full force???
Can kids compete safely in a sport with dangerous techniques and strikes?
All things will change. Sometimes for the best and other times for the worst. Traditions can change or they fade away to be replaced by other traditions.
Alot of these "traditional Martial arts" are being exposed as frauds, which makes me wonder what were the ancient people really using as their martial art back then? and are they even effective even put in the present?
Started in karate but just started my journey in boxing! Excited to see where it goes.
I continue the traditional style at my gym and it is passed down carefully. I dont believe they will ever truly die as long as at least a few carry the torch.
Awesome discussion coach! The distinction between traditional and modern styles, codified vs adaptive styles, is always an awesome topic to go over. None of us can predict what will last and what will fade away.
I don’t know if you’re still having folks on your podcast but I think you’d have a great time with @thescholargeneral who is a great guy, and has thoughts on traditional martial arts in China, and how we get to where we are today.
Thanks for the shoutout!
Alot of these "traditional Martial arts" are being exposed as frauds, which makes me wonder what were the ancient people really using as their martial art back then? and are they even effective even put in the present?
Thanks for the video
I had some assumptions and this video confirmed most of them
intriguing video and an interesting topic! great to hear your thoughts!
I agree but Muay Thai & Boxing
will never die.
Those aren't what people mean when they say traditional martial arts did you not pay attention
Alot of these "traditional Martial arts" are being exposed as frauds, which makes me wonder what were the ancient people really using as their martial art back then? and are they even effective even put in the present?
muay thai also isn't the same that it was before
Neither is boxing.
Didn't boxing start in ancient Greece/Rome?@@matheuslarrubia7619
I hope Ramsey you will also make a commentary on Authentic Shaolin Kung Fu. I saw a sparring video of Jeff Chan with them.
One of these days I suppose I’ll have to make another trip to Henan to make a video about Shaolin.
@@RamseyDewey Thanks. By the way I really love listening to your realistic commentary about fighting and because of that I'm already skeptical about self defense technique. Before, I am also one of those who are delusional about self defense. Right now I play boxing and BJJ which are both legit martial arts. By the way I'm just a beginner and I am not good. I'm still studying how to be a better practioner of the sport.
@@RamseyDewey adam chan wing chun/kung fu youtube channel
I bet you got 10k steps doing this video Ramsay. Awesome content man. Great insights.
I love to listen to Ramsey's words. Watching him pacing around, not so much.
TMA will never "die out". They may become niche disciplines, but if something like "Bartitsu" can gain a following, after seemingly going extinct, I seriously doubt that other MA disciplines will. Besides, as your fellow YTuber "The Karate Nerd" once demonstrated, there always can be gems found in TMA, when he demonstrated that "katas" weren't just dance moves, and that they were designed to help stimulate muscle memory, based on the fighting style of the era that they were developed in. Food for thought.
That’s like saying dinosaurs aren’t extinct because paleontologists have found their fossil remains and learned stuff about them.
@RamseyDewey Well, they do say that modern-day day lizards and birds are descendants of dinos, which gives us homosexuality sapiens an idea of what they might have looked like, as well as what their physical mechanics might have been. I'm not saying that you are wrong in your assessment, my caveat is that, at the end day, you can find something useful in TMA, for today's application, if you have the talent and know how to pull it off. Just depends on the setting that it is being used for, that's all.
@@dswynne Exactly! It's about constantly refining the techniques as well as mental aspects of the system.
@@RamseyDewey The knowledge of TMA is not transmitted by the bones of those who have practiced them (although ancestor worship also exists...), but by the living practice of those who continue to bring them to life. I hope you can identify your cognitive bias.
@@ISkandarash I identified a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy for you. You’re welcome.
Traditional martial arts will never disappear as long as (daycare) aka after school martial arts programs, exist. Parents love it. Also, it is apparent that many people like paying for belts, bowing, wearing strange pajama like uniforms, learning to count to 10 in Korean, and learning to say techniques in various foreign languages. I did all of those things. Let me save you a lot of time, money, and frustration: If your goal is to improve your fighting skills, you know what actually works. Now, as a very wise man once said, “get out there and train.”
PS: great video!
I think u mean mcdonalds i mean mcdojo lmao 🤣
people might enroll their bullied kid into a Gracie Jiu Jitsu program, only to find out that it doesn't work when he decides to fight back against his bully, since bullies never operate alone and always fight together ... and what's to keep his bully from training jiu jitsu as well ... back to square one, and as long as they pay, the Gracies won't care he's a bully
@@ColossalSwordFormAndTechniqueyes, to me virtually all traditional martial arts are best suited for Mcdojos.
@@SINdaBlock411 if the kid joins a real gym, he won't be alone in the fight either. If the bully joins the gym, they will likely become friends with some mutual respect. Even if the bully joins a rival gym, they can test their skill in competition. Heck, the bully might not need to start fights at school anymore as an outlet. I know all of this is a bit overly optimistic, but it's to counter all the negative "what-if" scenarios with some hope
@@strongwiseandfree what do you mean "a real gym" they're all the same, and none of his bjj friends will help him at the moment of truth when he's at school ... bullies don't befriend victims, they never change, bjj will make a good person arrogant and a bully an even worse bully ... competition will only make things worse between them ... now the bully can bully the victim both at school as well as on the mat ... again, bullies stay bullies, they never change, if a bully learns bjj on top of his already superior strength, it will only make things far worse still for the victim ... yes, very optimistic indeed, delusional even ...
Wise words. I was training karate shotokan when I was a kid in the 90'ties. I got green belt, won few tournaments (in kata and kihon kumite). After 25 years I went to train karate in the same club (it's a good club that's a member of World Karate Federation, not some McDojo) - with the same trainers. I was SHOCKED how it changed over those years. Training became way more practical, elements of judo and BJJ were introduced - it was obvious that MMA had influence over the karate trained in that particular dojo.
Ramsey, great take today that hit hard on a lot of points as you get your 10,000 steps in. Sorry in advance for the wall of text. My karate style is only about 60 years old at this point, but the funny part (or maybe normal part) is that it was started by someone who had a bunch of other martial arts training and changed a few things and combined a bunch more and called it a style. He continued to change it throughout his life, where there is video evidence of him doing techniques or kata differently as he got older. Sensei says he taught us exactly how he was taught, but it was interesting to see the differences from other senseis' students when they had a big black belt test. That's just one generation of teachers who all changed things based on which 8th or 9th dan they continued to follow. I expect it will continue to evolve until people don't want to put in the effort anymore and it will slowly decline or morph into something else entirely.
I also find interesting the diaspora of Asian martial arts to the US, especially from US military personnel who trained with Japanese and Okinawa masters. At least in the case of my style, at a certain point, the master gave a handful of Americans black belts (of whatever degree) and they came back home and began to teach. In most cases, it probably vastly increased the number of followers of those styles. In even more cases, it probably eventually watered down the style to the point where 6yr olds can get a black belt. Sensei wouldn't give junior belts, and I agree with him. Some mom did actually ask how much it would cost to buy her 10 year old son a black belt. He said no and I never saw that kid again, and he had been coming to the dojo for years. I used to care about belts to an extent, but I'm old (your age) now and couldn't care less. I'm personally proud of what I accomplished, but I'm not a vegan or crossfitter, so I'd never actually bring it up in conversation. ;)
I've gotten jumped on in real life for pointing out the hypocrisy or bullshido of someone's proclaimed karate idol. Oh, just pay $100 to come to this guy's seminar on Saturday and (oh, you also have to buy his special self defense keychain tool for $49.95) and he's going to show us all kinds of cool self defense techniques! Yes, if I have a spiky keychain knife I can stab someone in the eye with it, but I'll probably go to jail for having it. Another 9th or 10th degree guy they brought over from Okinawa or somewhere was absolutely horrible to every female he encountered. He just insulted everyone because they couldn't do pushups on 1 finger like he could (that he never demonstrated). Eventually he got caught being a pervert and probably went to jail. And then there's all the meaningless awards from all the martial arts associations on top of the inflated belt system! OK, I've offended everyone, I'll go hide now.
"You have been trained in the ancient ways, no go forth and show the staggering strength of namek!
...Fool. if he had been trained in the new ways, he might have had a chance."
didn't expect a TFS reference here 😂😂
@@pascalpodszus8091what’s TFS?
@@RamseyDeweyteam four star, they do anime abridged videos on youtube. This is from Dragon Ball Z abridged.
@@julian7247so it’s a parody of a Japanese cartoon I’ve never seen?
@@RamseyDewey Yes.
As a Taekkyon teacher, I can tell you that taekwondo and Taekkyon really have nothing to do with each other.
By the end of the Japanese occupation of Korea, there were very few teachers: Im Ho, Song Duk ki, Kim Hong Shik, and Shin Han Seung. Kim died during the Korean war. Ho died in 1957. Both shin and Song died in 1987.
The bulk of the art that remains was the collaboration between Sien and Song from 1970 through 1987, Shin having trained under two of Song's Contemporaries circa the Japanese occupation and in private.
Even my own work that has spanned the last 35 years in restoring the art to what it was is perhaps similar to the work of Jim Arvantis' work with Pankration.
For over three decades, my own work has shown that Taekkyon was originally a similar approach as today's mixed martial arts.
The original art was a mixture of traditional dance footwork combined with Shoupo, Xiangpo (collectively: Wuyi), and Shuai Jiao.
Along the way, cross-cultural influences included Shaolin longfist and in some aspects Wing Chun. Perhaps maybe as many as a dozen other arts were absorbed, most of them through trade and warfare.
The key is actually in the footwork which is known as pumbalgi, or stepping on triangles. A rhythmic alternating lead.
The focus of my work has been restoration and the preserving of it- where it goes after I publish my works in the next few years remains to be seen. But at least it (a comprehensive curriculum I call Jinhwa, or evolving, Taekkyon) will be in print and on video with the intent being very specific, such that the art remains versus what happened during the Japanese occupation.
Of interest is how Chinese martial arts nearly died out when Mao's forces destroyed the Shaolin temple in 1928. Jing Wu and Wushu came out of that. At the same time, Karate was struggling to stay alive and 1928 was a banner year in that Karate styles sprang up that year to impress Kano, who came to visit around the same time Itosu and Funakoshi were inserting watered down karate in the school system to keep it alive. In Korea, 1928 appears to have been the year the Japanese began suppressing the practice of Taekkyon in earnest- perhaps there's a video in there. (This info is based on the info I have read- if you have more/different info, I'm all ears). It appears that 1928 was a BAD year for most martial arts and for different reasons.
Anyway, I truly enjoyed your commentary on the roots of taekwondo because it seems its origins are the myth that simply will not go away.
Great video!! Much respect to you.
Great comment but Mao didn’t come to power till 1949.
As a Taekwondo practitioner, I know for a fact that Taekkyon and Taekwondo are very different systems. The kicks are light years different from each other and the overall focus is different.
So Taekkyon is a restored art? Like HEMA?
"Of interest is how Chinese martial arts nearly died out when Mao's forces destroyed the Shaolin temple in 1928." You have confused it with the burning of the Shaolin Temple under the patriotic Kuomintang government, well BEFORE the Maoist period. On the contrary, the Kuomintang played a fundamental role in the transmission of Chinese martial arts with the creation of the Central Guoshu Institute: this period corresponds to a boom in traditional martial art throughout Chinese society due to government policy. If "Kung fu" is known throughout the world today it is mainly thanks to these people... The practice of Chinese martial arts is far from being limited to the Shaolin monastic tradition, it is above all family traditions , and we must also add the Taoist tradition, at the time of Mao traditional martial arts were already widespread throughout China and among the popular classes as explained! It's not a matter of "Monks"...
Bro, I just watched an amazing Jason Lee video with Erik Paulson doing some impressive Wing Chun variations.
Anything you can do with your hands and feet will never go out of style ! 😁👍
I'd like to add that Okinawan karate was originally a loin cloth martial art and some of us uphold that tradition at home.
Also there where no styles , thows and joint locks were also part of Te. And if your teacher had shown everything he knows it was normal to go to another sensei to learn more from him.
Interesting you bring up the point about some martial arts teachers acting as if they are gods. I visited a wing Chun school taught by Ben Der, a former high school classmate of Bruce Lee. I noticed the lack of formality in his school compared to The Japanese martial arts where people arrive at the same time bow in and start class. He responded he didn’t want to be a god. I think the teaching was done by his senior students, but he would drop by and give more detailed instruction to the student being guided by the senior student. Gichin Funakoshi, in his book karate do: my way of life poked fun at those who made grandiose claims of their martial art. He wrote that you cannot transcend the bounds of human limitations.
Pushing the other guy after he's insulted your wife/mother will never die.
Great story of mom thinking everything is for sale 😅. Thanks for sharing.
In some ways, I think you could incorporate a formula into this. What's interesting about the martial arts market is how is does infact cater to many people's different needs. There are some that want strict functionality, while others want rewards and glam, and perhaps a less physically demanding road down it. Than many inbetween that hold new goals, and some that are a mix of many of them, from cardio boxing to bare knuckle boxing. Fads change over time, and in our modern day where people search for quick satisfaction from a lack of effort, it is interesting to see where some martial arts will go. Yet I think generally, many people who engage in them, do have a good sense of patience and discipline, depending as mentioned on the art. Than there are influences, such as advertising and such that truly push them forward, and basically sell the art to people. Which is interesting, because over time, when an art begins to gain popularity, and is thrown into sport, it seems to become watered down compared to its original form. Some people are claiming that this is happening to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, while an art like karate, that went through Pacification may infact rebound in realism with some karate dojos incorporating more kickboxing like sparring rather than single hit point sparring. So in the end, if you include Advertising, effectiveness, cost, availability, reward, ease of learning, aswell as the opposite, glamor, and general risk vs reward, than you can somewhat guess how it might continue to do. As some say also, it's a matter of keeping it simple and practical.
I wonder why most people in the west dont consider boxing and wrestling a "traditional martial arts" since at least their modern iderations have been around 200 years easily
Yeah if we think about it. Sherlock Holmes had been doing boxing 150 years ago and his author Conan Doyle. And Judo existed only 120 years😅.
Because the word 'traditional' is used in contrast with 'practical combat sports' such as boxing and wrestling.
@@Moses_VII judo isnt near as useless as aikido ☠
@@Moses_VII Alot of these "traditional Martial arts" are being exposed as frauds, which makes me wonder what were the ancient people really using as their martial art back then? and are they even effective even put in the present?
New Ramsey Dewey in the morning. Goes good with coffee. My thanks, good sir.
The point about fun is a good one. Tkd is really fun to do. Learning to throw 360s makes you feel like a ninja. And that day when you land one in sparring? incredible.
I'm in a sparring circle with some bjj and MT people and we occassionally have a few rounds of tkd or western boxing, not out of a desire to compete in those sports, but because they are so enjoyable to practise.
I do both modern and traditional combat sports/MAs. I live in a major US city and there are 3 BJJ/MMA schools within a 15min walk from me, but the nearest TMA school is a 30min drive away.
So okay. I do kung Fu. Like animal and various. I do kickboxing and spar for modern combat.
As I age I realized how essential kickboxing and sparring was to help me even understand my old kung Fu.
And so in return I now I'm super into kung fu. And I break my forms down into kickboxing or just modern techniques and ways. I find it beneficial in various ways. 😊
traditional really means the 1880s interpretation of historic. so, realistically its a contemporary martial art.
Well, most of todays traditional martial arts don’t even go back that far. Judo, for example, started around 1890, but wasn’t fully codified until the 1920’s, and wasn’t the sport we know today until some time later. And every TMA that uses a gi and belt came after judo. Most of the TMA’s that don’t are either historical revivals or gross misinterpretations of the source material. (Take karate for example: about 80% of the techniques from kata are grappling and hand fighting techniques, meanwhile what’s actually taught is most dojos is 100% kicking and punching)
@@RamseyDewey thanks or the reply coach. Just look at how lots of American JI's stationed in Japan in the late 40s got suckered into thinking Aikido was pure ancient martial arts. the Dojo's made a fortune out of selling black belts to them.
@@RamseyDewey taekwondo was created in the 50s by general choe hong hi by combining taekkyon and shotokan
you have not much documentation before the 1900s, take for example Li Ching-Yuen or Lu Zijian both shall have been way over hundred years old, but still no ones really sure, the rest is basically what is called in china "wild history" and is not really taken for real, comparable to jackie chan, he is considered comedy too and not real martial arts
@@ektran4205 I know they say that about taekkyon, but it's not actually true. Taekkyon was a dead art in the 1950's. There were martial arts scholars in Korea who knew about taekkyon on an intellectual level. People weren't practicing it. Because of Korean nationalism, they made the claim that TKD was derived from taekkyon. As I said in this video, taekkyon as we know it today, is a historical revival like HEMA, not an unbroken lineage of traditional martial arts, contrary to what they will tell you.
Totally agree that the rank systems in traditional systems have caused alot of weekend warrior martial arts schools interested in selling belts and not real knowledge.
To your point about Judo, you are absolutely correct, I received my Black Belt in 1979 and Judo is very, very different,, similar, but different.
The Edo period was a nail in the coffin for ju-jitsu. Most of the Jujitsu was figured out from books after a point in time.
Didn't know this. Thank you for adding to the knowledge base. Respect to you.
I recall reading somewhere that Jigoro Kano couldn't find a Ju-jitsu instructor that could teach him more things because how unpopular it had become by the time he was a young man, so it really was his initiative (and lifelong goal) to revitalize and make new an art@@docbohemian1328
This made me think of something.
Throughout history there are a lot of example of wars wear innovation beat tradition. One example that comes to mind is the way Napoleon changed warfare with the use of guns. Whereas before armies would March in formation, Napoleon used more guerilla tactics and had his troops use new unconventional methods. Another example is how nobunaga unified Japan using the arbques (spelling) which even Musashi admitted was the greatest battlefield weapon.
So it made me think that in the realm of martial arts, tradition is a bad thing. Sure, there are lessons to be learned from the old styles and the old ways, and it's important to understand history; However at the same time in order for a martial art to be effective -whether I be hand to hand combat or war between nations- it has to evolve in order to stay effective and stay competitive. Even sometimes it goes full circle and the old ways become the new ways, but always it's changing. Even from opponent to opponent you have to adapt your style.
If you remain too attached to tradition you will never learn anything new. At the same time, it's important to respect and honor the people who came before us, and it's important to have knowledge and understanding how things evolved. There is still value in the history of martial arts and I believe that there are techniques from ancient times or in history that lots of martial artists don't use or aren't aware of that could still be effective.
I think it's important to keep an open mind and not become attached to any particular style. I think when you focus on too much of one style a person can lose sight of the purpose of the martial arts.
Man,
Just spot on.
i didn't expect to, but i like your take on this. i am in agreement with most of it. what a lot of people don't understand is that the "traditional" martial arts are already modern adaptations to "keep up with the changing times" but it's just that those changing times happened 100-150 years ago...
Interesting video, Ramsey. I would like to hear your opinion on something in particular: do you believe the idea of converting a martial art on a sport modality have bad consequences? I've practiced judo for some time and one thing that displeased me is how almost all dojos reduce judo to the sport modality. As a strict sport, there's a lot of restrictions on the techniques studied and practiced and the whole martial art is reduced to a matter of points. While I understand the goal and can see the benefits of the sport, it turns really hard to learn and practice the martial art to its complete extense. Maybe I'm just confusing things. Anyway, thank you for your videos, I appreciate them a lot!
Jigoro Kano, the founder of judo, considered that there were three levels to judo: low-level, middle-level, and high-level.
The lowest level of judo is learning to defend against an attack. The middle level of judo is being able to control both the body AND the mind at will; having the full control of one's physique, emotions and mental fluctuations. The highest level, then, is the full application one's energy in contributing to society with maximum efficiency.
So yeah, if you study judo, the "martial efficiency" should really be the least of your goals.
@@Veepee92 Yeah, neither I nor anyone who studied the art need to commit to such ideal. While I respect Jigoro Kano, eastern martial arts try to develop this holistic approach that one needs not worry about.
@mobili2 Kano wasn't really an orientalist in this regard to any extent. He was a staunch modernist, mostly influenced by the utilitarian ethics of Herbert Spencer. Trying to belittle his pursuits as "eastern holism" does a real disservice to his work and his legacy, and it's not that any kind of masculine "sport bad only real fighting good urgh orgh" argument is any better in the first place.
@Veepee92 don't remind saying my argument about martial art vs. sport was better, nor that was it the case. In fact, if you read it properly, you'll see I'm asking for clarification precisely because I believe I may be missing something and there might be a better response. However, saying "this is what Jigoro Kano wanted" only addresses his particular opinion on how judo should be understood and not if judo qua sport modality can harm judo qua martial art. Hope I made myself clear.
I think 'lower levels' of practise are what support the 'higher levels', and are thereby more important to train on a daily basis!
Application training is not basic training. Limiting your application training to one sports modality can produce good results in that specific field, if that's what you're looking for. But yes I agree there's a risk or rather a certainty of losing a lot of the the basic training, if you're training for such limited goals.
It's quite easy to spot if a martial arts school promotes well-balanced and well-grounded practitioners. To me that's the most important thing. And let's face it, both traditional and modern schools can have their issues with ego nonsense. So can competition based schools versus development based schools. A full system versus a limited system. No matter how you draw that divide, both sides will be prone to issues. What's important is a good teacher, good students and a clarity of method and approach. In order to cut away any ego nonsense. If a school can do that, the worst of bad consequences will be avoided.
As for preserving the traditional arts, I don't think we need to worry about all the sport schools, simply keep training it (our more traditional arts) with those who see its merits. We may seem like a minority, and sport styles / competition styles seem to take away from it, but really it's not so. We'll always be at the core while they may look for the limelight. It's all good. As we say in TaiJi, the core feeds out to the rest of the body; The whole body supports the core.
Hey, Ramsey. Have you ever thought of making a video of you sparring with someone who does weapon martial arts? Like HEMA, Kendo, stuff like that. I really like the idea. It sounds fun
A gun
@@thomaskent3136
Why would I need a gun when I can just use a nuke?
One of my students was a local kendo champion. We used to sword fight with poodles after class on a regular basis. Who knew anyone wanted to watch that kind of thing?
@@RamseyDewey
I think it'd be cool. Maybe a thing where it starts out with both of you having them, one of you doesn't have them, you switch who has them, and then it's just regular sparring to close it off. I've always been intrigued with the bare hands vs weapon type of sparring, but I've rarely seen anyone do it
@@hypnoticskull6342 in my experience its very difficult for the unarmed person. Turns out swords are very effective
Excellent response Ramsey! I don’t really consider myself a martial artist anymore, but I obviously still observe what’s going on. I took Taekwondo as a kid and earned my 1st degree black belt in 5-6 yrs as a teenager. I failed 2-3 of my tests, so it wasn’t easy. Taekwondo nowadays looks quite different & students seem to get through the belts faster. It also looks less effective outside of competition sparring scenarios. I’m also not a traditional person, so those analogies made sense to me too.
In another few hundred years, will someone revive them as "ancient, forgotten techniques"
Alot of traditional arts need a Jigoro Kano for a new age, as they must adapt for modern times. Like how because of Judo, Japanese Jiu Jitsu didn't completely die, and it aroused new interest.
The history of my martial art, Bead-Fu, is only 3 years😅 old. Started my OWN martial art 🙏🤛 Absolutely love your coaching and experience! I wear a belt, to hold my pants up, it happens to be black🤷♂️
Fighting will never die. Certain ways of how it is taught, though, will die, others will be born
Today's TMA were yester-year's MMA. 200 years from now our MMA will be "traditional".
Ramsey, I think I'd disagree with your characterisation of Judo. Yes, the form it's in dates back only a hundred years, but Judo originally was just a methodology or system for teaching traditional Jujutsu. No idea how far those techniques as a somewhat cohesive body can be traced back, but they definitely predate Jigoro Kano by a considerable time period.
I suppose in the last analysis it's a matter of definition.
Kuresi exists for over 6000 years and looks similar to Judo
aikido jujitsu and judo were all one style before kano and ueshiba came along
I competed in the early 2000s and I watched some of the recent olympic TKD events and it looked very different because of the shift to sensors for point scoring. I remember when I was training, the guys who came up through the 80s had a different stance and style. And the ones from the 70s were even more different
And because they changed the rule set last year (or was it 2021?) it is changing rapidly again. Once everyone catches on to the new rule set, there will be a night and day difference between TKD in 2015 and 2025.
The sensors really impacted my enjoyment of the matches in a negative way. It just didn't even look like fighting anymore. Hopefully they change the rules back to an approach that prioritizes 'trembling shock', which was the approach they used still when I was doing it
@@olindblo
Mate, a hundred years is by definition more than a lifetime to anyone less than a hundred years old!
On the subject at hand, I learned Tae Kwon Do back in the late 1980s when it was still written as three words. Our gradings were conducted by Rhee Ki Ha, one of the original masters and General Choi still taught seminars, so I guess I'm closer to the original "tradition" than many people who teach, but for me it's still a hobby. I have few students. I don't charge much. I think there should be a delay between belts to make the students focus and study hard and not treat the grades as participation awards. I actively discourage the students from calling me 'master' and only expect (but seldom get!) the same kind of respect that schoolkids should show their teachers in class. I make no grandiose claims. I am a competent martial artist, but not an invincible human fighting machine. If my students try hard, they will get fitter, understand their bodies better and hopefully be more capable of self-defence than if they don't, but that's all I claim. Those who claim more are lying either to themselves or to their customers!
Many people teaching only the Olympic sparring style make a lot more money out of it than I do, mostly teaching kids. Teaching what wins points in an Olympic style bout is great for winning that kind of bout, but it leads to a style that is as far from real self-defence as olympic fencing is from real swordsmanship (I teach fencing as well btw).
IMO, there's a lot of fiction in TMA. But I think some of the reality out there is fascinating. Not far from me, there's a 10th Dan who has an oversized red belt with 10 stripes. He teaches about 75 forms, and it's his own style. I think traditional training is great for health, discipline, and learning control. But I wouldn't choose karate for that necessarily. Learning Naginata or Iaido seems more appealing to me, or exercise Tai Chi. I decided to go to a Shotokan school a couple years ago. I liked the Sensei. What was bothersome to me was that her 8 year old daughter was part of the grading group. Now I'm sure what she said didn't pull major weight, and I totally understand wanting to involve her, but I don't need to be judged by a child. I could rattle on about this stuff for days lol.
I remember in that mega drive game, Eternal Champions, there was a character set in the not so far future who was cyberneticaly altered to compete with other cyborgs in fighting tournaments. A possibility....
There are two aspects to your talk which I thought I'd contribute to: 1) if you are an academic doing research on and discussing "cults", and you are asked to define it, there isn't actually any clear difference between definitions of "religion" and definitions of "cult"; for example, all religious founders become divine in some way. The actual difference is that a "religion" is socially accepted and a "cult" is not. That pretty much the only difference, made so due to how their is no universally accepted definition of what a "religion" even is. Then, people are taking the term "cult" out of its religious context and putting it into a "martial arts" context, making the term even more difficult to wrap your head around. It can be a useful shorthand for "this martial art seems more like a religion", but given the amount of seemingly religious underpinnings in so many martial arts, even that isn't a particularly useful form of delineation. Bowing, seemingly worshipping, instructors is, unfortunately commonplace in traditional martial art settings; you get into Aikido, and I have personal experience in how you are basically taught to worship swords (the training swords are treated better than people are).
2) Just a sidenote on your discussion of religious traditions being left behind. According to most research findings, it is the women in the family who tend to carry the "weight" of religious belief and practice for the family. If the father stops practicing their religion, but the wife does, the rest of the family tends to remain religious. But if the mother stops being religious, the rest of the family tends to end their religious practices as well. Just thought that I'd mention that because it's interesting. I read a few academic articles detailing this some time ago but I cannot remember where I read it.
"Christmas" is actually a great example of a tradition that is also not so old. For example the thought of a "white holiday" is can be traced back to the works of Charles Dickens and the fact that during his lifetime there was one particular winter with way more than average snow, influencing his writing. So his "Christmas Story" later on became a Christmas classic, participating in forming this "tradition" of a white Christmas, laying the ground work for a lot of things that latch onto that image: Santa Claus (which is an invention of the 20th century) climbing through the chimney (which is borrowed either from Native American or Skandinavian literary traditions) etc. etc. Christmas is also a very made-up tradition that is barely a hundred years old, similar to what you are describing considering Martial Arts.
What? Christmas is the birth of Jesus . And is the same date as a Roman festivity. So Is and old tradition.
Even having a "Christmas" tree comes from a pagan Germanic tradition .
If you mean the thing about giving eachother presents you are correct.
@@AlexiusRedwood Okay, so first of all, yes, it is a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. Is it the date that Jesus Christ was born on? Most certainly not! Is Christmas as a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ an old tradition? Also not; it probably only dates to around the 1700s (that is more than 1.5 millennia (!) after said birthday. Also, most of the elements of this celebration that you can think of (for a US-american for example eating a big dead bird with a lot of gravy, handing over presents, having a guy with a white beard and a red dress driving around the country in a Coca-Cola-Truck etc) are also barely decades old. Yes, even the gifting thing is a very recent development. Up until the 1800s most presents in Christian countries were not given for Christmas, not even for one's birthday, but for saint's day (i.e. the day that is associated with the saint that you are named after). One of the main origins for Santa Claus for example is also Saint Nicolaus, a Byzantine bishop, who was celebrated on December 6th. I am so old that I can still remember that St. Nicolaus came in early December and the little Christ Child (yes, no joke) came for Christmas. Because, you know, a baby Jesus to deliver presents makes more sense than a guy wearing a red suit (if you are referencing Christmas as a religious birthday of sorts). Funny little details as well: The traditional celebration in Spain is Epiphany (January 6th) where the children receive presents from the three wise men, which also makes a lot of sense.
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So, yes, you are right: The metaphor for christmas is the celebration of Jesus' birth. But that is only one small puzzle and has only been becoming more important over the past 100-150 years. It is also (today) majorly influenced by the US-American way of celebrating that holiday. That Roman festivity that you are referencing to (Sol Invictus) was a festivity to celebrate solstice and only became a Christian holiday during the 17th century. Festivities for solstices are common amongst pretty much all cultures and are "traditional", yes. But the way the are celebrated can change massively between cultures and also over time. Even if we say "Christmas is just Sol Invictus" (which it is not) I am pretty sure your family would look at you flabbergasted, if you'd celebrate Christmas by grating cheese into a bowl filled with red whine and topping it off with spices.
@@Manta665 In Germany, St Nicholas Day is early December. You put a boot out and if you were good/polite you get candy and maybe a little gift. If you were bad, you get a stick.
But even boxing has changed greatly! Ancient Greek boxing was very different from bare knuckle Pugilism of the 1800s. Bare knuckle allowed for head locks, sweeps, throws, hammer fists, back hands, etc. Some rule sets even allowed for stomps to the feet & shins + kicks to the shin.
Bare knuckle boxing was clearly different from boxing post Marquis of Queensbury rules (modern rules) but even so boxers in the 1920s fought different than those in the 1960s & they fought different than boxers in the 1980s, etc.
Alot of these "traditional Martial arts" are being exposed as frauds, which makes me wonder what were the ancient people really using as their martial art back then? and are they even effective even put in the present?
so what was the difference of ancient greek boxing to bare knuckle pugilism and ancient greek wrestling to modern wrestling?
@@jmgonzales7701 ancient boxing (as I understand it) was essentially just punching. Defense via foot work/maneuvering was seen as a negative. They stood in place & took turns hitting each other as it was a test of strength, resilience & endurance.
Bare knuckle pugilism was street self defense & fighting that was practiced in a sporting fashion. It allowed many hits ban today (hammer fist aka chopper, backhand, rabbit punches, etc). Also standing grappling, headlocks known as chauncery, foot sweeps, stomping the opponent's shins or feet, kicking the opponent's shins, etc were all allowed..
As for wrestling I know less about the differences but I believe it's more subtle. Kinda like the difference between traditional jujitsu & Ringen aka Medieval German wrestling.
@@jmgonzales7701 aditionally the Olympic wrestling style of Greco-Roman (possibly Free-style too but I'm not positive) was created for the 1st modern Olympics. It was done to create a common set of techniques & rules for competitors since many countries had indigenous wrestling styles but many styles had different rules & varying techniques.
@@asa-punkatsouthvinland7145 so pugalism is pratically street fighting in sport form.
Can u help me? I can choose now 2 styles as beginner boxing or miau thai. Wchich one style could be better as base for MMA?
I'm currently trainin' in Zui Quan, and I'm realisin' that it draws heavily on the traditions found in Cockney Kung fu. The main difference is the lack of weapons in the former compared to the latter. Nothing beats a glass throwing star, but they were banned from pubs in the UK back in 2007 and we're already losing some of the forms in the drink-jo.
Nah, traditional Asian martial arts isn't going anywhere for a couple of reasons. The big reason is that contrary to what people may think, combat sports like MMA are still a niche, not mainstream like boxing. It just seems that way because the fans congregate at events and on RUclips channels.
Second reason is that both combat sports and traditional martial arts have limitations, not just TMA. TMA has stuff like eye gouges, fish hooks, strikes to the throat, while combat sports does not because of rules, while combat sports has the advantage of pressure testing. So the limitations go both ways.
And the third, and this is a BIGGIE, is that a lot of people love practicing forms, especially with old weapons like swords, staves, and spears. And these people have ZERO interest in going into a cage.
The more I think about, the more I'm positive that the video title is 100% incorrect, and not even close to reality. TMA is not going anywhere anytime soon.
Just listening to the video and reading the comments
A bunch of uneducated thugs , ignoring ART
Well tbh, he is kinda right.
Like, it's true, but not for the reasons many people believe.
Traditional martial arts won't die because they are uneffective, they will die and fade away because their own foundations are not of this time. The way of the martial artist is one of a lifetime, starting off in childhood and which never finishes because there is always room for improvement. How could this extremely long and rude lifelong journey would attract anyone in an era where everything is fast, quick and intense? The food, the TV shows, the movies, the professional careers, everything is made to create as much dopamine in the brains of people as possible. Who cares about a lifelong journey of mastering the body, the mind and the spirit through erasing the limits of the human mind such as fear or pain? It's not marketable, is it? But saying "train for 3 years and become the boxing world champion !!!" is definitely much more marketable right? You understand where i'm getting at?
So the death of traditional martial arts has nothing to do with traditional martial arts in itself, but it has everything to do with the modern situation of our world who can't get anything profitable from such a "boring" lifestyle, which is the one of a martial artist.
@@jundullah9869 Your observation is interesting because it reminds us of something that most people don't know about traditional martial arts: they have NEVER been popular. That is to say that they were never made for the masses, they were traditionally reserved for a minority of selected individuals, a master meticulously chose his future students because he knew that this type of transmission required particular faculties. the Transmission Circle remained family and privileged. If they became so popular it was only by "accident", traditional martial arts never needed to have 10 million Bruce Lee fanboys to survive. So NO: these arts are not going to disappear because they had more reasons to disappear 300 years ago because the number of practitioners was MUCH lower than today and limited regionally!
Alot of these "traditional Martial arts" are being exposed as frauds, which makes me wonder what were the ancient people really using as their martial art back then? and are they even effective even put in the present?
As much as I like HEMA, it's not always so focused on practicality. There are a lot of people involved in it who react poorly to more practical, yet modern training/combative techniques becaue they "aren't in the sources."
That’s what you will get with historical revivals.
Why are you looking for practicality in HEMA? Its literally the antithesis to what HEMA is. There's zero practicality in walking around with a broadsword. And if you're wearing mail under your shirt then you need therapy. The entire point of HEMA is historicity. Its the first word in the name. They aren't trying to modernize rapier technique, they are trying to recreate what they best perceive to be the art as it was at the time it was practiced. Because, frankly, that's about the most you will ever get in terms of practicality; a history lesson.
@cjohnson3836 I'm only looking for practicality regarding fencing, not self defense or anything. And, frankly, HEMA practitioners who disregard the centuries of sports science that have developed since their favorite treatise was written end up being crappy fencers.
@@paulconrad6220 OMG this isn't hard to comprehend. Their priority isn't being a "good" fencer. Its understanding what the people who practiced the art at the time it was relevant were trying to do. Its a historical pursuit with a sprinkling of exercise. Why is this hard for you to understand?
@cjohnson3836 Oh, are historical presentations what they do at competitions, then? Seemed like people were trying to hit me with blunt swords.
Do you even fence, bro?
They will never die completely. They are great for kids. There will always be parents who know nothing about what is useful or not useful.
I've been a martial artist for 24 years.. With that, I have been to war, been in combat. Did private security and executive protection for Embassadors and Dignitaries... With that, I've been in many fights, mass fights, shootings.. As I aim to begin teaching.. I won't have a traditional school. I'll have a school that teaches combat. The things that I aim to teach I've been put into positions to use. My team has been put into position to use.... and if we didn't.. we didn't go home to our families. . I see more people aiming to become proficient at protecting their families in a more realistic manner.
Thank you for your service. I am pleased to hear/ read that you have become a well trained soldier. I am training to be one too one day. In which unit did you serve, if you don't mind me asking?
Ironically high school wrestlers with no belts and no hierarchical traditions are practicing the world's oldest martial art.
Ironically, what you call “high school” wrestling isnt as old as you think. It was invented around 19th century France because they thought that’s how the ancient Greeks wrestled. In reality, how the ancient Greeks wrestled is a totally different style from “high school” wrestling. Traditions and such are just the customs and practices of the local culture. “High school” wrestling has them too…you just dont realize it.
As long as I can watch all the old king fu movies it will never die Sam Snead lives forever
Ramsey can you please lead me in the right direction about training with injuries not related to the martial art. What art would you recommend?
Having personally known a founder of a traditional karate, I’ve seen changes as early as the 2nd generation. Usually when that happens they’ll change the name or modify it, the name that is. Look how much social media has changed us.
Boxing and wrestling is all you need.
Depends on why you train martial arts, if it’s just to fight , or to be used in a particular application of violence then most traditional arts fall way short, but if it’s for the beauty of the movement or the preservation of the artform itself, then it will always be there, it’s all about intent
Bruce Lee said something along the lines of "a kick is a kick, a punch is a punch". The only thing that changes their implementations is rule sets. My system was UFAF/Chun Kuk Do, otherwise known as the Chuck Norris System, which continues to evolve.
Great video! Boxing, Wrestling, Archery, Shooting, and Fencing are ‘martial arts’ found the world over. Depending on the laws in your country many of these ‘traditional martial arts’ are more practical for self defense than MMA. Also, all of these martial arts are evolving…. HEMA and Filipino martial arts are influencing fencing, BJJ is influencing wrestling, Muay Thai is influencing boxing, there are modern takes on archery such as the videos by Lars Anderson and the instant Legolas by Joerg Sprave, shooting even is changing with the AR platform, laser sights ect. It’s a wonderful time to be alive with all of the innovations! Belts if done right are more about curriculum… it’s like a university degree…. You need so many credits to graduate…. Martial Artist just say you need so much Matt time and you have to take an exam to be certified. Once you are certified, the cirtification is backed by the organization saying “this person earned their black belt and will be a knowledgeable and reputable person to take lessons from because of what they know and what they can do. Certification won’t go away…. The belts might. Belts just help people keep track of the percentage of the curriculum that is known.
Hi Ramsey. I recently joined a kickboxing class at my local bjj gym and I was really disappointed with how it was set up. After the warmup we all got pads and hit static combos then after half an hour just switched, and held sparring afterwards. I feel like holding pads isnt making me any better at kickboxing, but is this something i should try to talk to the instructor about or just not bother and try to find another gym elsewhere…thanks a lot
That sounds pretty standard training to me. You hit pads to sharpen up the technique of your punches and kicks and then you do sparring to apply those skills in motion and under pressure. Not every training session should be like that imo but judging just from one it seems fine to me
Sounds to me like you'd really benefit from some 1on1 technique practise. Maybe ask the coach if they do 1on1 coaching sessions and go from there.
I think he had a video discussing how holding pads was making him better, because it gives him time to watch and anticipate an opponent...
In your case i think you should go to a pure muay thai gym, sanda, or a kyokushin karate gym with kb, in few words short, better find a pure striking gym to get more attention in the techincal aspect of striking, because in bjj/mma gyms or any grappling focused gym, striking comes 2nd and is something that they are forced to do in order to compete in mma bouts.
Ironically, the true tradition is one of pragmatism, and continuous improvement; keeping the torch lit, and seeking what the previous generation sought. There's only so long you can keep a certain eras methods preserved in amber. I was on the verge of giving up karate 6 years ago, when I realised that I'd been taught form without function. Then I stumbled upon a certain RUclips channel that revealed this whole new practical, pragmatic strata of the art that I thought had nothing more to offer. I decided from there to stick around, and even teach it now.
Shui Jiao is the oldest Kung Fu being established in The Spring and Autumn period in 581 B.C.E. and Luohan quan 18 hands from 500 C.E.
The Lunge Punch…
Will Never Die
Yes and it is a good thing.
signed a karate black belt
Well Dewey, nice idea, you gonna buy some swords and invent the blind master dewey invicible sword fist style charging only 49.95 british pound per day. Hope you gonna make a playlist of it comparable to icy mikes road to street beefz, this could become fun
Martial arts belts /and ranking /chain of command and dictatorship.Martial Cults.what is your take on that?
Hi there, from France. I train in an fighting school which teaches grappling, jjb, mma (classés devoted to making bridges between striking, takedowns and floor), karaté and what they call self défense (a bit of striking holds and takedown nothing fancy or scenery), and kickboxing.
A lot of people came there for self défense only, or mma only. Tell you what : the next year, if those people are still there, they enter the karaté class.
So now, the once almost empty karaté class is full of people. Why ? Because they realised karaté could bring them some things other classes could not : how to Strike, how to stay in posture and stand your grounds, how to move around, stay focus...or whatever.
If people start to find the value of other classés and go and learn that...they will not die :)
@12:20 reminded me of ChosunNinja 😂
I think the question is related to some specific Martial Arts like most of the ancient Chinese forns of Kung Fu with a not a practical approach. maybe the example of Aikido.
Wrestling and Fencing and Boxing and Archery are 10's of thousands of years old.
Mine (Mantis) started to die as soon as it was taught in a standard school. As it was created it started to decay pretty much instantly. It's taken pressure testing, looking at all versions, and looking at historical texts to get the effective ideas out of it. When it went from bodyguard style to dueling style and finally a "sell forms to rich guys" style. It went from a few key motions to hundreds of useless forms.
To people who ask how long to get a black belt on first day or how much for a black belt i advise them that amazon sell them and a swift purchase will save a lot of time, effort and money in the long run.
The style of, “Is it effective in tha streetz?
Nice take
XLNT 🛑 Moving!
That's indeed true about Taekkyeon and it wasn't practice in the 50's because of the war. The last master died in the late 80s. What is interesting it became the first martial art to get recognized by UNESCO
It wasn't practiced "much." Valid reasons you have stated. Kim Hong Shik died during the war, leaving Song to train with his master, Im Ho after the war was over- who then died in 1957.
Song practiced his skills in security work after the war, but pretty much every other Taekkyon Kkun was gone until Shin Han Seung caught up with him in 1970.
They collaborated, trying to put everything to paper, which Song was against. Shin persisted. Song relented and published a book in 1983 with his student Park.
A very politically well-connected Hwang Kee created a lot of obstacles as he attempted to pass off his very sloppy and plagiarized version of Shotokan for presentation to UNESCO- thankfully, he failed (and it was Shin that got the UNESCO feat done).
Anyway, the art almost completely went extinct except for that- my views on Taekkyon aren't particularly popular and I'm a Taekkyon teacher.
More another time.
What Ramsey posted here was very good and pretty damned close to 100% regarding my own art- say about 97%-99% accurate- the art was almost completely extinct except for Song, post Korean war through 1970 (and that must have SUCKED). I have been at the restoration work for over 30 years, you see. I hope my work gives it a better shot at survival than during the occupation...but it's still reconstruction.
I wouldn't tell anyone any different.
There are two nights a week where I have the choice of sitting on the sofa or going out to do Shotokan karate. In the 80's and 90's, the club would have been full; now, there are a dozen of us there at best. The club might not survive for many years, judging from that trend. It exists now though, so that's roughly a dozen of us not sitting on sofas for at least two nights a week.