What was Gondor's War Strategy? | Lord of the Rings Lore | Middle-Earth
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- Опубликовано: 21 апр 2022
- Gondor was at the forefront of Middle-Earth's defense against Sauron, and if it had to fall nothing would stop Mordor's armies from swarming and conquering all the other factions of the Free People. In today's episode we'll be exploring every aspect of Gondor's war strategy from its outer defenses in Ithilien to the great fortress of Minas Tirith.
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Check out my latest video!: "What were the Nazgul's Weaknesses? | Lord of the Rings Lore | Middle-Earth"
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Развлечения
Hey guys, I'm currently travelling so I couldn't make a new video this week, instead I decided to reupload and fix an older video which had some copyright issues :) Hopefully most of you haven't seen it yet!
Hopee your travels are fun!
Safe travels . Enjoy your self
I haven't seen it yet
Be safe
Take care and enjoy the trip even if it is a business trip.
You're soldiers of Gondor. No matter what comes through that gate, you will stand your ground!!!
Olog-hai WE SMASH!
That was one of the best and most intense quotes and moments of the films! Hope we'll be able to see something matching at least that.
General Gandalf was by far my favorite persona of his. He was in front with the troops, inspired by all who heard his voice. Fighting tooth and nail, truly badass.
Book version of that scene is so much better
classic!!!
The loss of Minas Ithel really was a calamity. It's loss opened up Ithilien and Osgiliath to attack. M.I. was such a great bottleneck to hold back Mordor.
Isn't Osgiliath also an amazing bottleneck since it's on a river and requires extensive fording if the bridges are destroyed?
@@youraveragescotsman7119 Yeah 😔
Hey. New person here. I finished watching the LOTR trilogy recently and I’ve read fellowship and two towers. Return of the King is next. Middle Earth and Tolkiens legendarium is becoming a great hobby and interest for me
That's awesome man! Are you planning to check out the Silmarillion eventually?
@@GeekZoneMT yes at some point. I’ve got exams soon but after that I’ve got the summer holidays to catch up on things 👍
@Thisis Gettinboring ok haha. I’ll read it when I can
100% worth it. I've actually been rereading RotK myself (No idea where the other two went) and I gotta say, it's even better reading it after having watched so many lore videos. Also, reading Tolkien's masterwork also gave me appreciation for the movies and everyone who contributed to making them. There's a lot that was shuffled or removed (like everything between Bilbo's birthday party and the Hobbits reaching Bree), but it was a very good translation from book to movie format.
One part of the movie version on the attack on minas tirith I did like was when the orcs invaded the city and breached the walls and gate.
I know that doesn't happen in the book and I do like the books version of the battle but I gotta admit, that's one little change I loved because it showed the sheer desperation and unlike the book there was civilians in there which theatrically is better
FOR GONDOR! FOR GONDOR! FOR GONDOR! FOR GONDOOOOOR! -Boromir and the madlads.
Awesome video! FOR GEEKZONE!
14:40 This is the best picture of the city.
Had Sauron been able to form an alliance with Smaug and the Balrog, he could put a great deal of pressure on the defense of Minas Tirith.
"A great deal of pressure" is maybe the understatement of the year xD
Would been interested to see how large a force gondor could muster if denethor had not gone mad🤔
probably not enough for a traditional military victory, which is why the spy-craft of the Hobbits and Galadriel’s camouflage robes proved a better strategy
@@Gokkee best comment on here. I wonder if Gondor would’ve had enough in the tank without Rohan during the battle for Middle Earth had they’re Stuart not gone mad…
@@Gokkee I mean, Denethor went mad at the very end - he summoned reinforcements when there was time, and I don't think there was much more he could have done at that point even if he hadn't killed himself. The movies massively misrepresented him.
@Amelia-zm9yq agree on the last part about the movie👌
But madness manifests over a long time and in different ways.
To clarify on that part.
He used to much mental power to try and fight sauron, stay in power, and not muster an actual army.
He had the time and bolster and had a reserve army from the wast land of gondor.
I suppose Gondor had the best defense they could have had, considering the location of Minas Tirith and Osgiliath in relationship to most of the realm. Excellent content as always and I can't wait to hear Karl himself reading his own work.
Sounds like Sargon of Akhad speaking
@@nevilleslightlylargerbotto1726
AKA Carl Benjamin.😁👍
@@Enerdhil lol okay yeah I figured it was him.
Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!
West Wind blew there; the light upon the Silver Tree
Fell like bright rain in gardens of the Kings of old.
O proud walls! White towers! O wingéd crown and throne of gold!
O Gondor, Gondor! Shall Men behold the Silver Tree,
Or West Wind blow again between the Mountains and the Sea?
Wow Gondor has a very efficient structure to their city and had an effective battle stragedy so interesting great narration and video! 😊👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Awesome video!! Gondor is easily my favourite faction in the books, it’s a massive shame that the films did them dirty- huge missed opportunities.
A few days ago I was looking this specific video! For me this is the best video you've ever made! Glad you broght it back!
As always great video, hope to see mire videos like, maybe Batlle of the Five armies video like this, about strategy, tacticts, movements...Great video!
Excellent video, but the comment that Minas Tirith's beacons were there to call her soldiers from 1000s of miles way is surely off by an order of magnitude.
Awesome video. Very well done. Two thumbs up.
It's kinda hilarious that you use LOTRO's map for Osgiliath. Definitely my favorite MMORPG of all time, between game mechanics, story, combat, and how it's not over the top in any way. (Even if the graphics could be better, but it's as good as we can reasonably expect.)
I love this video, thanks for reupload.
Love your videos man keep it up!
I had your older video on a watch later playlist. I guess now is the hour to watch it.
Great video as always
I love Strategie , war is sad but also interessting 🔥. Thanks for the Video 🙏
Great video man.
Constantinople had an expectation that families who did not maintain a food stockpile to survive three years were to evacuate the capital before a siege. I expect Minas Tirith had a similar policy.
Essentially they’re strategy was to wear down the OP numbers and elite units of Mordor with guerrilla warfare, layer after layer and depend on Allies not being held up by guerrilla warfare due to pirate armies of Sauron’s evil men waging havoc on the outstretched legions of Gondor. They’re big flaw was they’re bad placement of the capitals right next to enemy territory. Minas Ithil was literally on the doorstep of Mordor and Mina’s Tirith was almost as hopeless. They did as well as they could plan after the fatal flaw of stretching out the heavy numbers elsewhere to get cut off while Mordor’s OP legions swept through quickly as possible to get to Gondor. Time was not Mordor’s friend but it didn’t need to be. They just needed to distract Gondor’s backup long enough to Wear Down the countless layers of the capital defenses!
Karl totally understand! Great video! Travel safely!
Great video!!
Bonus points for Warlords Draenor Soundtrack in the background
Verry nice Video would love to see more Lord of the rings Strategy Videos 🗡🛡🏹
I've seen it mate but I don't mind seeing it again.
It's good. 😁👍
To answer the question: Yes, at least three things we actually know from historical fortresses immediatley come to mind:
A) Prepare ditches! Dig ditches! I mean, if you know they have to come for the gate AND that they will need siege engines and not just troll muscles to breach it, then why not have a ditch and a drawbridge right in front of it? Imagine how many more orcs the Gondorians could have peppered with arrows if knobhead Sauron's hordes would first have to fill up a decent ditch to get Grond in touching distance to the gate.
And ofc. you dig a labyrinth of ditches across the Pelennor fields - at least within the range of the defenders bows. You can't let them parade their siege towers and other heavy stuff like that!
B) Along with the ditches, have canals from the Anduine river across the fields and use the water to make the ground wet and swampy. It's a lesson from multiple historical battles: An attacking force on slippery ground ... that's when archers have a field day. Ask for example the French army at Azincourt.
And since I think that engineering is not actually a forte of orcs and trolls, both installments would have caused them massive problems and delay.
C) Construct the buildings on the first level from mostly wood and in a way that they can be disassembled relatively quickly (and obviously disassemble them in time before the gate is breached). Simply so that when the attackers start entering the city (and thus starting to really cluster) there is nothing that gives them makeshift protection from any missile that comes from above. Besides, this would also allow for the cavalry to proper charge at them. ... and/or again, prepare ditches on the road.
For A) yes that is probably the single best improvement they could have done.
B) it could cause alot of troubles digging rivers through the land since the pelenor fields was already a massive fertile land with huge farm areas, so it would probably cause alot of problems.
C) the housing problem is well... a nightmare of logistics and the city is made out of stone to not burn to the ground when someone tips over a candle. Just ask London or any great city's about that xD
One thing I'm really curious about is what if sauron got a huge Moria goblin army to climb down from the top since they have shown themselves as climbing masters🤔
@@Gokkee Oh, I wasn't suggesting digging rivers and certainly not across the entire Pelenor Fields.
Firstly, I am thinking along the lines of something like the irrigation systems they use in Asia for cultivating rice or along the Nile to cultivate crops. So, it might even come as a benefit to farming: If there was a draught, they could use it in a controlled way for irrigation. And if there is a siege mounting, they literally open the floodgates and make a mess for their enemies.
Secondly, I am only anyways only speaking about those small strip of land in front of the city's walls that is within reach of their missiles. There is a military saying/ rule that "barriers must be guarded". Which means that you use barriers in an attempt to stall or direct your opponent. That only works meaningfully if he's within reach of your arms (else he'd simply lift the barrier).
Lastly: Actually, such sort of (card-)housing was actually used throughout the medieval and until the end of the 19th century in Europe. And is was applied for areas both inside the walls but more prominently the area outside the walls. The French term used for that is "Rayon".
And I am suggesting this only for the first circle of the city, not the city as a whole. Also, it would be highly stupid to have any craft that heavily uses fire (like smiths, backeries, etc.) in that circle. Such vital assets need to be as close to the core of the city as possible. Historically, you'd rather find smelly, "watery" buisinesses on the outskirts (and downriver) of a city: Dying, butchers, etc..
@@eugenebelford9087 didn't expect an answer but your comment is great👌 and I'll take notes ;)
Thanks
The rangers of Tolkien remind me of SpecOps of nowadays in their specialization to go deep into enemy controlled territory and sabotage and harass the enemy as much as possible.
Fan-bloody-tactic video!
That Druchii theme music though.
Great video 🙂 only I highly doubt that Sauron had hundreds thousands of orcs... In fact I think he did not have even 100 000. Although there are no exact numbers given in the books or movies, there are more mentions in the LOTR saga of how big a huge overpowered is and the „magical number“ is 10 000 (examples are Boromirs reference during the council of Elrond that it is impossible to pass into Mordor even with 10 000 men, size of Sarumans army which was considered formidable was 10 000 Uruk-hai, Theoden hoped he could muster 10 000 riders if he went all-out, after the Battle at Pellenor fields Gandalf said that 10 000 orcs now stand between Frodo and Mt. Doom, etc.). With hundreds of thousands Sauron could send the Nazghul to Umbar on vacation and still easily sweep all armies of his enemies, there would be no chance to win Pellenor fields and to hold Erebor and Lothlorien if Sauron really had that big advantage.
@sargeras7518
That's exactly what I was thinking - Gondor ended up with like 5000 men, Rohan brought 6000 riders and Aragorn brought a couple of thousand maybe - there's no way they could have defeated an army of hundreds of thousands no matter how good Minas Tirith's defences were.
Definitely more. Remember he was also throwing large armies at Lorien and Mt. Erebor at the same time. Plus the army at the black gate vastly outnumbered Aragorn 6k. While the Erebor army probably had easterlings, the Lorien army was likely orc heavy and black gate army seems to have also been majority orc. 150k orcs I'd make it.
@@Amelia-zm9yqAragon brought 500 at most from the oathbreakers
Great video. Can't fight a war on defense alone though. Did they have any planned counteroffensives or a planned first strike?
Nope.
No. For a very good reason. They would lose.
People often forget that Sauron had fortresses just as strong as Minas Tirith. (Minas Morgul is her sister city) These would be harder even to breach, as they were said to be maddening to attacking soldiers due to the evil that lived there. The Host of the West didn't even try attacking Minas Morgul durring its march, even though the city had been stripped of most of its troops durring the loss at the Pelennor.
Also, sieges require a some things as a prerequiste. Firstly, you have the numbers advantage. Fortifications always favor the defender, and you need large numbers (and the ability to lose large numbers) to stand a chance of breaching a fortress. If you have less numbers, they will just sortie and destroy you on the field before the siege even starts. If not that, you need time to starve them out without running out of food yourself (a common problem) or being driven off by a relivieing army.
Gondor has none of this. They had lower numbers and could ill afford to lose them, unlike the expendable hordes of orcs at Sauron's disposal. Also, they didn't have the time before they would be cut of by another army and then surrounded and Minas Tirith would fall while undefended.
The best they could do is what they did. Guerilla warfare in Ithilien to hurt supply lines, and then heavy fortifications to make the most of their defensive position. Long term, they would only hope to hold on, destroy the armies sent against them, and last as long as possible, be that years or decades. The time had long passed where they had the resources for attacking themselves.
@@Trigm While nothing you said is wrong, I would like to point out they DID have an offensive action. Did they not surround and defeat in detail Sauron's forces before the gates?
But again, the question had no relation to my feelings on the series, just a curiosity on if there was anything in the EU I didn't know about.
@@ChairmanKam True. I assumed you meant attacks into Ithilien or Morgul-vale. I don't really count such action (sorties and such) as "offensive" considering that they are really just tactics in a defensive battle.
What do you mean about the EU?
@@Trigm Expanded Universe, literally anything outside the main text of the trilogy. Not meant to be derogatory, just a distinction.
Their strategy?
Survive.
Effective 👌
That's an objective, not a strategy (tomorrow I'll laugh with you, today I'm nitpicking)
Also if Minas Tirith only had 3 ditches and mote on thos walls they could prevent Seige Towers and if they had a draw bridge near the great gate then Grond would just break the draw bridge and fall over or they draw up the bridge and Grond has nowhere to go. Ditches had just been soo useful! And I wished Gandalf could have used his spells like Star Light on the nazguls.
the plan pretty much failed because of saurons overwhelming force. gondor knew how large his host was, but did nothing to prepare for it. they sent for no aid until sauron basically marched in front of their doorstep. they used tactics of attrition on an army so large, they could tank it. they had nothing to demoralize the orcs. they should have made contact with rohan, saruman, the south and the elves and dwarves years ago to assemble an army that could stand its ground. not to say all of these would have helped, but that would be the smart thing to do. they never really did a counter assult against minas morgul, osgiliath or tried to take back ithilien until aragon showed up. that way the conquest of minas tirith was a matter of time. something their enemies had plenty off.
The narrator has an excellent storytelling voice.
Basically Byzantine history 😮
Gondor's layout seems inspired by Japanese castles.
obi wan confirmed that 11:37
I would have installed blockages infront of the gate, basically serve the same purpose as anti tank blocks, basically extremely heavy strong big boulders on the floor, to stop any large battering ram, they knew a small battering ram would never break the gate so its fine to let them pass, obviously have the gaps between the blocks big enough for cavalry/carts to travel between unhindered. would essentially make the gate invincible unless they destroyed the blocks which if they tried to do that would give the defenders time as they could shoot any orc/troll being used to move them.
True. However, the city was also a city, and having such blocks would greatly harm the traffic into and out of the city durring times of peace. Not to mention that it would also impede the ability of your armies to sortie quickly, or the recover the retreat from the Ramas.
@@Trigm Ye i said leave the gaps big enough for horses/carts to travel through unimpaired, it would only serve to block HUGE machines like grond, but i do agree it would undeniably affect any cavalry sortie as it would break the lines up, the most desired option would be some sort of system where they could retract into the ground but idk if thats within the capability of middle earth yet
I don't know why the gondorians did not throw down rocks or install catapult or trebuchets at the part of the 7th level that sticks out. If a level was taken, the gondorians could throw down rocks at the attackers or the trebuchets would have even more range.
Details that are present in the books like these are somewhat lacking in the film.
Although I understand movies have to adapt for the format and cinematic simplicity.
I wish wars were still faught like this. Screw all the tech used now haha.
Gondor painted its Black Stone Gate White😂
You seem to be mixing books and movies a lot, so some sort of clarification might be good.
How to improve Gondor's Defenses?
*GUNPOWDER*
If Only They had the Blackstone Legion😂
At the end of the day Gondor just didnt have the man power to literally man the defenses. IMO after Minis ithel fell i would have pulled all remaining forces and garisons including osgiliath to Rammas Echor. If that section of Rammas with those numbers and a clear supply line from minis tirith and the farms of pelanor fields probably could've held for months if not a few years allowing us to deal with the pirates in the west and then send all my forces to Minis tirith and Rohan wouldve have had way more time to rebuild and probably reinforced with a force 2x - 3x the size the one they did.
Comment update: finished Return of the King and LOTR first read through 🙂
Orcs eat the dead no supply lines
The way Denethor the 2nd handled or rather mishandled the defenses of Gondor is a study in itself as is so obvious he left so much to be desired.
The whole Palantir fields could have been rigged with booby traps including hidden tar pits which could be set aflame and last, tar and even boiling water could have been used against any attackers of the city outer walls.
And if the outer wall was breached again round rocks and heavy logs could have been thrown into the steep streets to crush any advancing orcs and even trolls to slow their advance and decimate as many of the enemy as possible.
This is Warhammer backround music brah
Dark elf music, and it’s amazing.
The thing that often surprises me is, without just sounding dumb, that Sauro had as much trouble as he did. His orc horde was vast, and while I know that they are still people, and have people needs, they don't often get depicted as such. Orcs didn't have cities, nerd to maintain trade, or get bogged down in the othet minutiae of living other days; they seemed to ONLY exist to prosecute Sauron's battles, or build up to the next one. They needed supply lines, but I almost imagine them just being forced to eat their own dead, or the like, and be expected to put up with it. I t just seems like an unstoppable green wave (I know Tolkien orcs aren't green, but...) should have washed over the lands of Gondor, the majority of whose peoples weren't soldiers.
It's also a shame that Sauron didn't, or couldn't, claim air superiority. His side was able to forge fell beasts, for the Nazgul, but it could've been terrifying if their like had flown over Minas Tirith, raining bombs, corpses, or elite cadres of Uruk-hai into the deeper levels; and I know I'm leaning more back into 40k comparisons, again, but even if some orcs died in the drop, others might survive, and they were all expendable, anyway.
Lastly, it's a shame that neither side employed "real" Wizards. Not trying to crap on Gandalf, or entirely downplay the efforts of the Witch King; it's all the Tolkienverse inspired D&D I play, but magic does exist in the verse, even if Tolkien could be light-handed and vague with it, so if either Gondor, or Mordor, employed lesser "battle mages", things could have been very different. Think if Sauron, or some lesser Necromancer, could have animated the dead, and zombie-rushed Minas Tirith? Oh well. I think everyone else's greatest weakness was Mordor; no one could do to it what it did to them. No one would lay siege to Mordor; the casualties would have been astronomical, and needless. Orcs didn't have non-combatants, or infrastructure to be broken, so basically every body in Mordor was another obstacle, and the only prize might have been forestalling Sauron, because he'd be back. He'd always be there, biding his time, and wanting to simply crush his enemies, and dominate their survivors.
Eating their dead would be a very limited help on their supply line.
Supply is one of the reasons the attack on MT was so straightforward and ignoring losses
The few fellbeasts were used for recon and command and there were some eagles about.
Parachuting troops in the city would be a massacre the UH would be easily slaughtered
This is LotR no DnD
Lies
That picture of ME was romantic
Mordor proganda is strictly forbidden here! 😡😡😡
I have to say this post made me laugh.
Lmao!
@@GeekZoneMT Don't respond to the Mordor trolls! They are only there to confuse you!
Why didn't you mention about the Rammas Echor?
I know Tolkien wasn't well versed in medieval siegecraft but the Pelennor fields was such a massive missed opportunity to bleed mordor. I'd have sectioned it into zones separated by low walls running from the city to the Rammas echor, so that when a breach occurs you don't need to abandon the entire length of it and fall back across an open field. Now you'd force the orcs to take every single zone in order to complete the encirclement, each zone basically being a nice little playground for the cavalry to sally into without needing to go all the way back to the city for safety.
Also no earthworks meant Grond and the orc siege engines had a field day :(
Gondor strategy is "never again will the lands of my people fall into enemy hands!" And then fail.
Try not to die
Coping.
I guess you could say that Gondor was like the Ukraine of Middle Earth: it is the overt defence against physical evil in the east, but there are other evils (not always physical) that exist to the north and to the west that it is unable to keep back that other guardians must deal with. Rally up my hobbits and dwarves and and elves and men and ents and wizards to deal with the evil you find in your own paths, wherever you may be.
Appeasement.
Now I'm disappointed with the film portrayel :/
Please stop saying "for" and say "because" or "since". You are not yourselves ancient elves.