Are the castles/cities in Lord of the Rings realistic?
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- Опубликовано: 7 окт 2016
- The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy is one of the more visually realistic medieval fantasy films, but just how realistic are the cities and castle like structures?
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You've missed out a massive point with Minas Tirith - It was originally built as a fortification - not a city - Osgiliath was the capital.
I was just about to say this, Minas Tirith was not intended as a city they retreated to it after Osgiliath was under assault from Orcs
I feel like you guys also missed a point.
This is an analysis of the movies depiction of the castles.
He never claimed to having used any source other than the movies, and his focus on visual representations throughout his channel is pretty clear.
In the movies, Aragorn is crowned king in Minas Tirith. And you barely even see anything else of Gondor.
From that perspective the angle of his arguments come from are not so farfetched.
Chris Piccolo and Minas Tirith was meant to house the White Tree together with Minas Ithil
+Haiiry Cake I only saw the movies, and it was pretty clear to me that Minas Tirith was basically the castle of Osgiliath rather than a city on its own.
In that case though, if it's only the castle, where is the city? And regardless of whether an ancient super-advanced civilisation built it or not, they've been LIVING there for YEARS! So where ARE the farms?! Where are the "adjustments"?! Even if they don't know how to work the stone, they still have to farm and feed the animals, as well as house the ever-growing population into a constant number of buidings - in the best case, as deterioration would actually decrease it. Like real cities, they would have actually expanded outwards with a new layer of wall and defences every single time they did.
Some points: 1. Edoras only exists to govern the rest of Rohan. Only the politicians live there, and they import all their goods from the farming communities that we never see. Their wall/palisade was only meant to keep critters out. 2. Minas Tirith is somewhat hollow, with tunnels and chambers inside to house more people. Here, there should be farmland, however, and that farmland around Minas Tirith and Osgiliath is mentioned in the books. 3. The Hornburg was used to shelter the people of Rohan in times of need. They would leave the poorly defended cities and towns of Rohan and travel to Helm's Deep and the Glittering Caves when a foreign army invaded Rohan while the Rohirrim cavalry dealt with the invaders. It was never meant to be a long term dwelling. It was not built by humans, but by Dwarves during the First Age, who mined the Glittering Caves, then gifted to the Men of Rohan who re-purposed it as a refuge. For Dwarves, those ramparts are perfectly sized, as is evidenced my Gimli's inability to see over them. Also, where that door should be but isn't, there used to be a massive iron door there, but it fell into disrepair and was removed. Again, all mentioned in the books.
u sir said what i tought during the video specialy for the hornburg that the forteresse is made for dwarfs
I just wrote this exact comment in a lot less detail... and then scrolling through and found your much more professional version... haha! While you touched on Osgiliath you left out the Rammas Echor. The massive wall that surrounds the farmland and Osgiliath. As Minas Tirith is only a stronghold it makes since that the area just outside the first wall is barren so you can better defend from attackers. Having buildings there would give them shelter from the elements and from the defenders.
Just a detail: the Hornburg and the Glittering caves were built/discovered by the Númenóreans, and it was a Gondorian fortress in the province of Calenardhon until they gifted the province to the Rohirrim
i have the same idea about hornburg... it's not a city or castle, it's a fortress used when rohan is under attack/invasion... it's spesifiead as last resort for rohans when under attack/invasion... the glittering cave it self is only used as shelter, since rohans is a horsemaster not miner... the high of their defense is above the head of dwarves, so it's fit for dwarves who build hornburg... but also non practical since the dwarves can not fire their arrow in their dense war fence (i dont remember the name), since dwarve is close combat master than long distance figther, but it's not mean that dwarves cannot use bow... and the long wall, in my opinion, mean to used as diversion... there is nothing behind the long wall, only small door to the main fortress... the attacker may want to breach the long wall since it's harder to breach the main gate because of it's position... attacker may use siege weapon to easily target the long wall or climb it as the uruk-hai did, but will achieves nothing since there is nothing behind it... but there is also flaw on using hornburg as last resort defense : location... no farming land or if they want to have one, they cannot because it's location is on rocky mountain... In worst case scenario, it's a trap for rohans it self, if the attacker choose to starve rohans out... and since rohans is a horsemaster, maybe little bit like mongolian, their battle tactics will be more practical on open ground... but it's perfect for dwarves since they are a miner, close combat fighter mostly, and their small figure can fight easily on narrow ground... just my opinion, no offense, peace...
Sound commentary, but it still one thing doesn't make sense. Gimli can't see thru the ramparts, so they are virtually useless for the dwarves as well.
Fun fact about the Hornburg - during filming, Weta made the gate's doors so sturdy that they actually couldn't break it with the ram for a long time. It got to a point where they had to start removing internal sections of the door to get it to break like we see in the movie.
Misson failed successfully
Did they use mithril for it?
@@marisbury A kingly gift!
I noticed something that no one has pointed out yet. Shad says why are the walls of edoras so pitful despite the impressive craftsmenship of Minas Tirith?
Well, Minas Tirith wasnt built by the humans we see in the movie. It was built by Numenoreans. A human race so superior, they could almost match elves. When their island/kingdom was flooded by the sea and they went back to the mainland, they created 2 kingdoms but slowly vanished over a long period of time. Minas Tirith is one of the few artifacts left by the numenoreans. The Kingdom of Arnor for example, was completely destroyed.
True
Yeah there is zero practical context given in this video regarding any of the vast lore and history. It's probably better to do a movie _explanation_ of the book lore and explain why these differences exist.
Also who compares two nations and says their technology should be the same? Some nations on earth had vast stone cities while everybody else was still hunt and gathering.
It's pretty identical with the Roman empire in the real world after the vanishing of the empire nobody nows how to build such buildings. So they often used the old Roman fortresses and when they build new ones the only possibility was to build crappie wooden palisades.
ok, but it still doesnt justify why the city is not as defensive as it could be. He is pointing out the defensive problems of the cities/fortresses. so i don't really understand why u posted that comment. But that's a cool fact from the books to know.
hey well me shad, and probably many other people don't watch much lord of the rings lore
7:08 No he wouldn't, the king's means of transportation include throwing himself off that cliff whilst on fire.
Edit: to everyone saying it's not the king, IK I'm just using the same words Chad Shad did. I've read the books and watched the movies.
Darek Wroblewski ruling steward
Darek Wroblewski Into a moshpit of orcs
Denethor: "Hey, hey... bet you I can reach the bottom of Minas Tirith in less than a minute."
Guard: "My lord, that's impossible. There are too stairs and you've been out of track and field for, like, thirty years."
Denethor: "Hold my wine and grease me up, boys! I got a plan."
Ok, thats going down, but how does he go up?
Nelson Chow Thank you!
I believe Minis Tirith wasn't that big of a city, the original capital after all was Osgiliath which is massive. And of course the rest of population is further south.
Yes and you could argue, that it were built as a castle/fortress, which would explain the fact that it isn't that big.
from what i remember from lotr lore, minas tirith is indeed a huge forteress converted into a city after the fall of osgilliath
Ah, well that makes much more sense ^_^
I don't know how peaceful the times before the ring war have been. If there hasn't been much warfare going on, that might explain the underwhelming walls of Edoras. There just was no need for heavier fortifications, they would have been a waste of recources. Whereas Minas Tirith, apart from the Osgiliath thing, lies just next to Mordor and has to live with the possibility of an attack at any time, so people there are more willing to take the downsides of living in a city designed for defense.
It´s just the old problem of varying technology levels in fantasy. While there is theoretically no reason that the king of Rohan doesnt order a fancy suit of Gondorian plate armor or a longsword with a proper crossguard, it would just look very out of place with the overall style of the Rohirim people. Same goes for the walls, which I think, fit the look of Edoras perfectly with its early medieval style. I tend to be rather harsh on logical consistency in medieval fantasy as well, but in LOTR the style is so incredibly well done, it would probably bother me if they went for a more logical approach and watered down the Rohirim culture with Gondorian influence, even if it would make more sense.
Yeah, the lack of farmland always bothered me in LoTR. It seems like Hobbits are the only race who actually farm in the movies.
They couldn't have used the actual scenery then. They had to dismantle "Edoras" to restore it to it's original state. You can build a mock fortress in a month and take it down again, you can't do that with a patchwork of crops. There are no farms because it would have doubled the already exorbitant budget of the movie (and maybe run afoul of environmental laws). Minas Tirith might be different, it was model-and-CGI, but only the white city proper was CGI-inserted, the backdrop mountains and the surrounding fields through which Gandalf approached were New Zealand, I reckon.
I think Rohan’s walls are more primitive because all the major structures like Midas Tirith were built at the height of Numenor and the skills have been lost. Even Gimli comments on the age of the stonework when entering Minis Tirith.
Also Theoden was under control of Saruman so he wouldn't be able to take care of the defences of his capital
No. TheRohirrim understood that Edoras occupied a very hard to defend location. Building Edoras as they did meant that it could be rebuilt fairly easily if it was captured or burnt. But Harrowdale and the Hornburg and The Forts at Isen were much more solidly built.
But they could have built better walls anyway, they were not so backwards
Have you ever considered designing your dream castle for purpose of defending against medival assault? Taking everything you know into considerance, such as optimal suroundings, not just the castle itself.
Yes and yes ^_^ and you get to see the castle in this video: ruclips.net/video/ZBn7f3H-eqM/видео.html
You should work for a Cinematic studio as a Siege & Defense Expert.
First Wolf in
@Spencer Andrew First Wolf to use this name, so I am the first wolf in youtube and various other medias.
one of the best castles I've seen was built on an island and could only be accessed from the mainland by ferry or a land bridge that was exposed during low tide.
To be fair, Minas Tirith didn't have stairs. It was a up-spiral road that lead from the bottom to the top. The king could have road his horse downward, as Gandalf rose his to the keep.
The books describe these places more realistically than the movies do.
the people of gondor have learned how to get horses or at least donkeys to walk up and down the mountain.
Yes but lord of the rings needs to have unrealistic castles. That allows it to be unique
@@sethwashington6450 I believe it is possible to make fiction both unique and realistic to some degree. Extremely unrealistic characteristics of the world should be explained through the worldbuilding.
Minis Tirith actually had stuff outside the city in the books
How so? I looked, and for the most part, none of the details really differ in ways that significantly affect defensive effectiveness. The hornburg is still a massive near-miss, having so much wasted potential in its design, and Edoras and Minas Tirith respectively also seemed pretty faithfully done.
About Minas Tirith, the books describes a long wall extending almost half the way from the city to the Anduin.
Also, they describes the fields of Pelennor as being mainly farmlands.
This. For cinematic reasons, the moves leave out a lot of detail concerning the areas around the cities.
@@xshullaw
Just imagine the hardship of the CGI staff if they had to "change" the farmland during the battle for Minas Tirith, with each apporaching army and their animals...
@@tristanellis-mascoll1171 Oh I know. As if Jackson didn't put everyone through enough pain anyways lol. Seriously, the outtakes of this movie is hilariously painful.
@@xshullaw
Sometimes its just the right scene that brings the kick (remembers as "the kick the helmet scene)
Also it would not have been that great if he had gone for less than what we have.
and the outside of minas tirith was also LUSH lands, not scrubby little bushes that look half dead
If I ever need a castle built, I know who to contact.
"Design my castle to be an absolute turd to attack"
Yep, Mr. Shad doesn't read Tolkien. The tech used to build most of the stuff in Middle Earth is long lost. When Gimli arrives in Minas Tirith for example, he notices how the newly applied stonework by the current populations doesn't come close to the original stonework used to build the base of the city. Another obvious failure is the wrong interpretation of the overall setting of the LOTR (and other Tolkien ME works)...... it's not actually medieval...... it's more of a dark age with glimpses of long lost legendary glory. People of Middle Earth don't live or build actual cities (they don't have a civilization as such). They are mostly pastoral or nomadic, with few settlements scattered throughout the land. Gondor is the only and last place where any traces of civilization still exist. Rohan is basically a wide plane with less then a handful semi urbanized centers that are mostly there for defense and administration.
The rest is just pastures and farmlands. And yes..... the walls of Edoras are wooden in the books.
EDIT: Also, Minas Ithil and Minas Anor (as Minas Tirith was originally called) were actually a western and eastern "gatehouses" to Osgiliath and as such, more of defensive fortresses then actual cities. It was only after the fall of Minas Ithil (now Minas Morgul) and the desolation of Osgiliath that Gondor moved its capital to Minas Anor, now as the last remaining stronghold renamed to Minas Tirith, which translates to something like the Tower of Defense.....
Possibly if you compared one to the capital of the Hunnish Empire. While the Empire was huge, it was based on horses and therefore mobile, without hundreds of years going into building the capital.
I wish i could upvote you twice for that comment. Spot on.
Probably so, yes. The Rohirrim were relative newcomers to their land and
they only arrived there after a prolonged migration period (just like
the historical migration period tribes of Germanic, Slavic and Hun
tribes).
I see what your saying, but I'm sure Shad is talking from the perspective of the movies alone. This is all nicely explained in the books, but in the movies it is just glanced over- if even that.
Besides- ancient or not- impractical is impractical. the lack of stone in that specific city was nowhere near the focus of the video.
I know the movies don't go into the level of detail the books do.... but then again, they could not possibly do so without being hours long footage of pure exposition and it would make them unwatchable. And if the move makers decided to go completely against the lore (i.e. making Edoras into a stone walled fortress instead of the wooden palisade), it would insult the original material (and even more so the fans of that material). If one was to portray the locations of Middle Earth as bursting centers of economic activity and focal center for future urbanization of the land (as medieval castles were), then it would definitely violate the setting. So are the castles in LOTR realistic? Absolutely not....... are they authentic though? Well..... i'd argue 90% yes...
From what I remember there is a long wall called Rammas Echor that encloses the Pelennor Fields. This is the first line of defense.
What army would be big enough to man those walls
@@kaisermeiji2144 Gondor's army in the second age apparently
@@skdKitsune 😳
Yes, and there was a bunch of farms and houses enclosed by Rammas Echor.
@@Albert_Herring yep
One of the fascinating aspects of Tolkien's works is Decay as an overarching theme. You see it everywhere in the books and films and that aspect alone explains a lot of your misgivings.
No one skips Leg day in that city!
True story! Uniform is key!
Imagine being disabled in a wheelchair though. That would be a nightmare.
@@redrangerrr558 hah! Like a disabled person would survive a day in medieval times
@@albertschoise8091 they did exist, but true, it was a lot less common to see one.
@@redrangerrr558 true but tell me. Those that DID exist. Where most farmers who had to work the land all day OR nobles who coild afford not to
Minas Tirith was not built by the "modern" humans of LOTR, it was built by the Numenoreans, ancient long-lived men from a vanished island in the west. They built the various fortresses of the world, but then went into decline. Their stoneworking knowledge was lost - that is why Edoras is so much more primitive-looking than Minas Tirith.
Thank you. The concept of this video is absolutely absurd but what makes it worse is the author's lack of knowledge of Tolkien's world. This was never supposed to be set in the medieval era or any period of human history for that matter.
If there's a mistake in the video, it doesn't mean that the whole video is absurd. I found the 3rd part accurate enough.
No I agree, the third part was interesting and followed a logical path.
pretty sure they employed the dwarves to build the city, so no human had the know how. just the master builder dwarves
Uh...No Dwarves were used in the building of Minas Tirith. Orthanc is another structure build by the Numenoreans
Imagine longboarding down Minas Tirith...
Yeah imagine , the streets where probably perfect for lobgboarding
@@gorillagrip9867 lonbboarding?
@@remigiuscaesar8307 it's just like an skate board but bigger. Good for riding downhill
Two things are obvious:
1) you know medieval military infrastructure, which is impressive
2) you are not a Tolkien geek at all, seeing as you are trying to understand empires as just cities because the cities are the only things the movies show.
Haha.. true tho
@@darcyliz9993
Thanks. Besides, the movie shows a Rohan farm village being attacked by Easterlings that serve Saruman. If you remember, a mother calls to "Eothain" and "Freda", her children and puts them on a horse and sends them to Edoras to raise the alarm. Mother and children reunite at the Hornburg (Helm's Deep). Rohan and Gondor are very huge empires. Gandalf tells Pippin that they just crossed the border into the realm of Gondor as they ride to the city of Minas Tirith.
Osgiliath that Faramir could not defend is one of Gondor's cities through which a river passes. Great place to fish and farm. Even Gollum catches himself a fish before Faramir captures him, Frodo and Sam. Farther close to Mordor is Minas Morgul where the Nazgûl (Ring Wraiths or the black riders) live. Before it turned green and evil, it used to be a fortress city of Gondor. It's name was Minas Ithil, but the enemy took it and renamed it Minas Morgul. Remember that river where the giant statues with arms outstretched? Aragorn says to Frodo, "Look Frodo, the Argonath. Long have I desired to look upon the kings of old, my kin", as they sail in their boats from Lothlorien after visiting Galadriel. All that stuff belongs to Gondor. That happens after Boromir was killed. He died in his own borders. It's green, vast with lots of waters, hence lots of food and lots of people. Same as Rohan.
Orthanc in Isengard through which the river Isen passed was built by Gondoreans and when Saruman wanted to live there, Gondor allowed him. He lived there, but it still remained Gondor's property. Lots of wood, and farming 🚜 was so easy there.
I love how the comment section was full of LotR geeks and superfans.
I'm just always amazed how good their battlefield clean up is. Thousands killed, and not a drop of blood to be seen by the next day.
The books go into detail with the post-battle cleanups, especially after the Battle of the Hornburg
Mr. Nugg what do they do
When does this happen? You can always see the bodies after the battles, and the burning piles of them afterwards. The only instance of this is outside Minas Tirith, but a very long time passes before you see it cleaned.
I know the first wall of Minas Tirith is black in the books, but what I really want to see is some poor fucker scrubbing the walls with a brush and sponge to get all the blood off them.
If there is one person in a work of fiction you should always feel sorry for, it’s the janitor.
The reason is some time had passed between Pelennor battle and the march of Gondorim and Rohirim.
Still beter use of trebuchets than Winterfell...
That's a very low bar to set :p
The new “Still a better love story than Twilight”
LeoVillads Twilight had a good love story tho 🥺😌
@@benjamin9120 It’s treason, then
The Front Treb omg If you do that in aoe2 you will be dead
Yeah the smallness of Edoras and the barrenness of the landscape, how it feels completely uninhabited except for a few tiny pockets of men, is one of the thing that bothered me most about the Jackson films.
He did it on purpose to show how the evil was already seeped into the land. I think it was a smart idea.
I know people will say the book says this, the book says that, but movie audiences arent reading the book. We are watching a movie and it should be a good movie to watch. I couldnt agree more about ederas. When i watched the movie i thought what the hell. Its built on a big ugly outcropping of rocks with a few houses. Looked completely out of place and not believable as a movie watcher. Several times i felt the same about the jackson films. Just completely left me feeling like they dropped the ball on the movie experience. And yes, where the hell is the all the people and stuff to support a big castle like minas tirith. Its like they just designed a big castle and they expected the majority of simple minded movie watchers to go.....oooh, wow, what a castle. Yeah its fantasy, but i guess i still need to believe it on some level. Maybe they just supported everything with magic invisible food and other invisible things.
I feel Rohan seems like it takes more of a Turkic Steppe kind of governance idea, with most of the Rohirrim simply being nomadic (in the movies at least), and use a bit of Mongol Empire-esqe reliance on horses.
@@rebelgaming1.5.14 Turks? Mongols? LOL, they're literally Anglo-Saxons on horses.
@@TomorrowWeLive I never said they WERE mongols. I said they are like Mongols with their government and reliance on Horses.
If you had a glowing city full of raging undead across the river from you, you'd hide behind a bunch of walls too.
The Rohirrim were actually nomadic in their behaviour, this was just a central point from which to gather, just like Helms Deep.
This, they're like mongols crossed with Vikings
Theodore Baker Anglo-Saxon*
Doing deeper research beyond watching the movies? Burn, heathen!
Yeah, and their lands are h u g e. They have several regions like the Westfold, mostly populated by semi-nomadic peasants. This is the reason they have such a big army, and such a small "capital" - they're spread out from Edoras into the plains.
Red Dragon
Edoras was a full-size set. No cgi. I'm sure they would've liked to have made it bigger.
The Anglo Saxons used degraded Roman defensive structures which they augmented and in some cases would have looked quite similar to the walls of Edoras.
I'm a bit late, but if you watch the making off, you'll see that only the top of edoras have been built. All the lower part is cgi.
Was it really a set? I remember they made a lot of the cities (such as minas tirith) as miniature models
@@Qbliviens yes it was a full set , it was shown in the extras on the extended versions.
lee Sloan the buildings on the top of the rock outcropping (2:40) are real, the rest is cgi.
21:15 tHeRe'S nO dOoR.... iTs JuSt aN ArcHwAy
Freaking killed me
Edoras is protected by the geography and the massive army of the Rohirrim outside that valley. The reason they had to flee to the hornburg (helms deep) was because the army of horsemen were gone.
i thought so too. if your settlement is in a more step-like environment and your army is mainly cavalry it would make much more sense to fight them on open plains, since rohan excels at this type of combat. and whenever they cannot, they flee to helms deep.
this reminds me of the scythian faction in rome total war. i would always fight enemies on the plains with my horse archers. i would avoid sieges at any costs since defeat would be certain. if i had no army nearby to defend the city i would leave, let the enemies have it, come back with a horse archer army and trap them in the city.
9:00
I mean, Minas Tirith literally translates to “Tower of the Guard” from Sindarin, Previously called Minas Anor, “Tower of the Sun” and ruled by Anárion from Osgiliath.
The original Capital of Gondor was Osgiliath, and Minas Anor was built to protect it.
Just one minor addition, it’s Minas Anor. Arnor is the Northern Kingdom near the Shire that fell into disarray but was later reunited with Gondor under High King Elessar.
@@dingenmetminecraft2169 edited, cheers.
Read up on Silmarilion and know about the Numenoreans. They're Aragorn's folk, and they're basically like Atlanteans. The Numenoreans of old built Minas Tirith. Their knowledge, being lost to more modern Rohan and Gondor is a theme of the story. You can observe this theme as well with the Elves leaving Middle-Earth. It makes sense that the more modern Rohab doesn't have as much technology as old and ancient Minas Tirith.
Not to mention they're like Atlantans because the ones that lived in the Undying Lands were covered by the ocean
That actually does make sence. In the story, the civilizations are all on a massive decline due to the results of their previous wars against Mordor. There is also a precident for loss of technology in real life, and when highly advances civilizations fall, often a lot of their tech is also lost. Examples include the fall of Rome, where as their empire went into decline, they would take the skilled cfraftsmen with them as they withdrew theid armies and governors. Another example is the massive loss of knowledge and technology from the sacking of Alexandria, when the famous library was burned. Comparing the Gondor of the time of the LOTR trilogy with the Gondor of the original war with Mordor and the modern Gondor is a small, frail shell of what it once was. I could easily believe they would have also declined in technology as well, especially if that last steward is any example of what their recent leadership was like.
Jason Ross
Gondor is a country under threat. Their other major city, osgiliath is completely overtaken by orcs. Sure it's easy to imagine the borders of minas tirith to extend way past where it is shown in the movie, but it makes sense that they shrink behind the walls closer to the high ground when under threat.
*****
Exactly! It was once a mighty civilization who's borders extended through the lands of Rohan, and all they way past Rivendale almost to the Shire. In the days of Gondor's greatest expansion, it reached from as far east as the sea, as far north as Mirkwood, west to the borders of Arnor (which in tern borders the Shire), and as far south as Haradrim. By the time of LOTR it had shrunk to include just 2 or 3 major cities, a shadow of it's former glory and was really on it's way out, without Rohan, and Aragorn taking over leadership, they likely would have fallen.
If you ask me Tolkien was right. Welcome to the 'idiocracy' of the future. xD
I think Shad’s analysis on the absolute overkill that is Barad Dûr would be very... entertaining.
18:47 Not to mention the extremely intimidating "No Entry" sign
Yup. The Golden Horde saw that, pouted, turned about, and called it their limit.
The reason the city in Rohan is so small is because they are horse lords you can't raise horses in a city. So the population is mostly rural.
You do have a poit, I just felt that Rohan has a too big regular army in the films for a nomadic population. For the walls, I think that a steppe country of Rohan could have those wooden walls, but Rohan has a border in the mountais, so they would have a stone source.
Nomadic or not, gives no hint about an armies size. Just thinks of the people of the steppe in our world, the armies of the huns and the armies of ghengis khan. Or lets stay in a similar culture like the rohirrim, think of the germans when they overrun the roman empire. The army fielded by Rohan is small compared to them.
The only named settlements of Rohan, that we know of (though certainly there were more) were: Edoras (the capital with Golden Hall of Meduseld), Aldburg, Grimslade, Upourn and Underharrow in the valley of Harrowdale, just beneath mountain fort/refuge Dunharrow. We know also that Westfold is the more thickly inhabited region, Deeping Coomb the valley before Helm's Deep was also densely settled. Edoras was located on a hill, at the opening of the valley, Rohirrim were congregated more in the dales of Ered Nimrais. Those sheltered valleys had forests, while up north there spread the grassy plains dotted with small thickets of trees and bushes, grass in some points was growing so tall that it reached above knees of a rider, horses could almost hide in the grass:
"For many hours they rode on through the meads and riverlands. Often the grass was so high that it reached above the knees of the riders, and their steeds seemed to be swimming in a grey-green sea. They came upon many hidden pools, and broad acres of sedge waving above wet and treacherous bogs; but Shadowfax found the way, and the other horses followed in his swath."
But yeah Rohan and it's people are a bit more rural.
"The dwellings of the Rohirrim were for the most part many leagues away to the South, under the wooded eaves of the White Mountains, now hidden in mist and cloud; yet the Horse-lords had formerly kept many herds and studs in the Eastemnet, this easterly region of their realm, and there the herdsmen had wandered much, living in camp and tent, even in winter-time."
They had no craft and skill of Gondorians. Rohirrim were unsophisticated and only Edoras and Aldburg were truly their contruction, in the manner of Northmen people who build so called fortified burgs, but they were rather basic and somewhat primitive (even though there is lack of detailed descriptions). They were highly independent people who were slow in exchanging any knowledge of tech with other cultures. They lacked somewhat in education, Aragorn described them as "wise yet unlearned". In fact it was the gondorian metalworkers who provided much of the weaponry of Rohirrim thanks to which they had advantage over barbaric tribes of Dunlendings. Descriptions of Edoras and Meduseld indicate some amount of skill but not reaching the one of Numenorean craft, not even close. Edoras was in fact a sort if defense in itself and the farmland and rural country actually lied behind it:
"Before them stood the mountains of the South: white-tipped and streaked with black. The grass-lands rolled against the hills that clustered at their feet, and flowed up into many valleys still dim and dark, untouched by the light of dawn, winding their way into the heart of the great mountains. Immediately before the travellers the widest of these glens opened like a long gulf among the hills. Far inward they glimpsed a tumbled mountain-mass with one tall peak; at the mouth of the vale there stood like sentinel a lonely height. About its feet there flowed, as a thread of silver, the stream that issued from the dale; upon its brow they caught, still far away, a glint in the rising sun, a glimmer of gold. 'Speak, Legolas!' said Gandalf. 'Tell us what you see there before us!'
Legolas gazed ahead, shading his eyes from the level shafts of the new-risen sun. 'I see a white stream that comes down from the snows,' he said. 'Where it issues from the shadow of the vale a green hill rises upon the east. A dike and mighty wall and thorny fence encircle it. Within there rise the roofs of houses; and in the midst, set upon a green terrace, there stands aloft a great hall of Men. And it seems to my eyes that it is thatched with gold. The light of it shines far over the land. Golden, too, are the posts of its doors. There men in bright mail stand; but all else within the courts are yet asleep.'
...
he morning was bright and clear about them, and birds were singing, when the travellers came to the stream. It ran down swiftly into the plain, and beyond the feet of the hills turned across their path in a wide bend, flowing away east to feed the Entwash far off in its reed-choked beds. The land was green: in the wet meads and along the grassy borders of the stream grew many willow-trees. Already in this southern land they were blushing red at their fingertips. Feeling the approach of spring. Over the stream there was a ford between low banks much trampled by the passage of horses. The travellers passed over and came upon a wide rutted track leading towards the uplands.
At the foot of the walled hill the way ran under the shadow of many mounds, high and green. Upon their western sides the grass was white as with a drifted snow: small flowers sprang there like countless stars amid the turf.
...
The dark gates were swung open. The travellers entered, walking in file behind their guide. They found a broad path, paved with hewn stones, now winding upward, now climbing in short flights of well-laid steps. Many houses built of wood and many dark doors they passed. Beside the way in a stone channel a stream of clear water flowed, sparkling and chattering. At length they came to the crown of the hill. There stood a high platform above a green terrace, at the foot of which a bright spring gushed from a stone carved in the likeness of a horse's head; beneath was a wide basin from which the water. spilled and fed the falling stream. Up the green terrace went a stair of stone, high and broad, and on either side of the topmost step were stone-hewn sea, There sat other guards, with drawn swords laid upon their knees. Their golden hair was braided on their shoulders the sun was blazoned upon their green shields, their long corslets were burnished bright, and when they rose taller they seemed than mortal men.
...
The guards now lifted the heavy bars of the doors and swung them slowly inwards grumbling on their great hinges. The travellers entered. Inside it seemed dark and warm after the clear air upon the hill. The hall was long and wide and filled with shadows and half lights; mighty pillars upheld its lofty roof. But here and there bright sunbeams fell in glimmering shafts from the eastern windows, high under the deep eaves. Through the louver in the roof, above the thin wisps of issuing smoke, the sky showed pale and blue. As their eyes changed, the travellers perceived that the floor was paved with stones of many hues; branching runes and strange devices intertwined beneath their feet. They saw now that the pillars were richly carved, gleaming dully with gold and half-seen colours. Many woven cloths were hung upon the walls, and over their wide spaces marched figures of ancient legend, some dim with years, some darkling in the shade."
The Roherim had a relatively small capital because of the nature of their culture and social structure. A large portion of the population were semi nomadic.
"Where are their fields of horses?"
Out in the fields, with their owners, being semi nomadic, not living in big capitals.
fmmetamc also being banned from Rohan under pain of death if I remember correctly
@@aidanwaters3679 That was only one éored, the one lead by Éomer. All the other éoreds were still inside the realm and not banned.
@@PGraveDigger1 Eómer was also still in the realm, just riding around. Possibly still in controll ofd his ancestral lands in the eastmarch.
However that's just the filmversion.
When it comes to Rohan- and Edoras, Rohan's "safe place" was Helm's Deep, and during the War of the Ring, the people of Rohan fled to Helm's Deep. People in Rohan live of farming and horses, and so it would be unnecessary, or rather stupid to locate a large amount of the population in a single area.
Clearly you probably haven't read the books or checked plenty of other people's comments about it.
Someone already mentioned it "Edoras is where people do the trades and state affairs than being where everyone lives. Rohan is a large vast land with different fiefdoms loyal to Rohan."
Helms Deep is an refugee for Rohan due to Rohan is an cavalry focused peoples. Most of their lands are flat and grass lands, most of the refugees would've gone to helms deep whole an messenger sent by the king to warn the rest of Rohan's fiefdoms to form and send their men to aid and attack the enemy that's gonna arrive on helms deep. And or be able to destroy the enemy in the open field.
The defence of helms deep was not easy since only a handful of soldiers actually knew how to fight plus the garrison of helms deep were of the elite due to its an safe haven.
The designs of the castles weren't the best. But it's way more better compared to GoT who destroys the castles as if they were nothing with dragon fire
“Having to climb long, narrow stairs to get to each successive level would make it such an absolute turd in trying to conquer this city.”
Well yeah. It’s literally named the Tower of Guard.
The books contain much information that answers many questions. And even then, movies always miss something, like the farms, for example. There were farms in the book it self.
@Peter Hibshman it really pisses me off when movies do that. "Peter Jackson's Lord of the rings" or "Ridley Scott's The Martian", as though the directors of the movie are trying to take credit for writing the story...
There were farms in the movies - we may not see the crops in the fields, but we see the results of farming everywhere: crates, barrels, wagons, and wains filled with crops. It's implied.
@@oliverturner1649 For the movies its more that you need even more money to build that stuff and time.
Oliver Turner donate them some money then?
@@oliverturner1649 Don't be foolish, Directors have to "translate" a story from one media, like a book or a video game and try and recreate the story in a film. Peter Jackson missed some things like having farms around Minas Tirith, but he did a good job overall.
1. Rohan uses the Swiss Militia system for it's war army. It's standing military is very small, and in war every man or boy able to lift a sword serves. The battle of the Pelennor Fields is virtually all of Rohan's army... and virtually all of it's adult male population, and a fair amount of it's female population. Shieldmaidens were actually a thing in Rohan and it was Eowyn's place in the royal line that kept her off the battlefield, not her gender. Edoras is small for the land area of the kingdom because Rohan is sparsely populated and populated primarily by nomads. Despite their physical appearance culturally Rohan owes more to the Mongols than the Vikings. Only those who have attend court or serve government functions live in Edoras. 2. Minas Tirith means "Tower of Guard" and it served as the western outpost guarding Osgiliath. It only became the capital of Gondor after the Kin-Strife and the decline of Osgiliath. It was not intended to serve primarily as a city and certainly not as a capital. The Pelennor Fields, the area the Orc army is marching across, is the farmland that supported Osgiliath and now supports Minas Tirith. Also, as shown in the movie, Minas Tirith had a large port and imported much of it's needs by water which is why Corsairs of Umbar were such a problem. Lastly, there were other provinces of Gondor which don't factor into the movie... such as Dol Amroth, a major city and seaport on the coast. 3. The Hornburg isn't permanently occupied. As is shown in the movie it is only used during times of trouble as a refuge. It was built by dwarves, not men, thus it's slight problems with scale... which were actually worse than shown in the movie. The army of Rohan had been dealing with the Dunlendings and other wild men Saruman unleashed on Rohan, which is why they were out of position to deal with the orc attack from Isengard... especially since Saruman and Isengard were supposed allies of Rohan.
I know this is a couple of months old, but the Hornburg was built by Gondorians before Rohan lived in what is now Rohan. In the books, Gimli was astonished that men were able to build such a thing, and after the War of the Ring, dwarves came and repaired the Hornburg because they liked the caves and stone of the area. But dwarves were not the architects.
First off the Rohirrin women did NOT go to war. As stated in the book, Return of the King, chapter 6, The Battle Of The Pelennor Fields. Quote,
and rising he looked then on Éowyn and was amazed. 'Surely, here is a woman?' He said. 'Have even the women of the Rohirrim come to war in our need?' 'Nay! One only,' they answered. 'The Lady Éowyn is she, sister of Éomer; and we knew naught of her riding until this hour, and greatly we rue it.' End quote.
Also, Helm's Deep was not built by dwarves, Gimli founded a colony in the 4th age after Sauron was defeated.
There was only 1 female in the Rohan army, stop making stuff up
Women in Rohan were shieldmaidens but they protected the Hearth and Home. It was their duty to protect the homes of their men when they rode off to war. They were home defense.
@@jackmclaughlin605 Yes and no, funny enough. Yes there were no women in the army save for one but, for the film, they disguised the women who handled the horses on set as Rohrim warriors.
Yes, in the context of the book and films within the story, there is only one woman among the army. However, there were actual women acting as men within the stages of acting the battle out on set.
Exactly, where are the farmlands around Barad'ur ! Oh wait.
Since the Lord of the Rings Online made it possible to spend hours walking around Minas Tirith, I can confirm that visiting Bob will just take too long.
Luckily, there are places to get a beer on every level...
Very interesting video! Kind of makes me want to jump into the game and count how many gatehouses I can find. Maybe I'll do that later.
In the books Minas tirith's Pellenor fields are all farmland. ITS not shown in the movies
good to know!
Yup. There's no farmland around Minas Tirith and Edoras because these parts of the movie were shot out in the NZ wilderness, and they probably blew the entire "realistic medieval farmland" budget on the Shire sets.
Gondor in general is poorly treated by the movies. In ROTK the only Gondorian characters of note are Faramir (wounded early in the movie and does nothing after that) and the crazy Denethor. Then Aragorn comes in and just takes over like a coup d'etat, with zero continuity. Tolkien did a much better job fleshing out this civilization, establishing characters like Beregond, Prince Imrahil, even Ioreth in the Houses of Healing.
On a more macro level, there is almost zero mention of the rest of Gondor; in the book, the battle of Pellenor Fields is won by reinforcements from the south, led by Aragorn. In the movie, it's nothing but a deus ex machina with an army of green ghosts saving the day.
Also there is actually a big ass wall around the Pellenor fields but I don't recall what it is called. I am pretty sure that the Orcs overwhelm it pretty quickly and thus it is mostly irrelevant to the actual siege which the movie cares about.
@@desmondd1984 Aragon taking over out of nothing? What nonsense are you talking about? He's the rightful heir, it was said multiple times in the movies, and Denethor only looks after Gondor until the new King arrives. There's no coup d'etat, except you count Denethor and Boromir not wanting the King to return ("Gondor has no king, Gondor needs no king").
And you also forgot Denethor's other son, Faramir's brother Boromir.
Minas Tirith was built as a watchtower/garrison city, Osgiliath was the capital of Gondor until it was abandoned.
Which somewhat explains the layout of the fortress. However, they didn't pay any attention to the surroundings of any of those places. There are no settlements (anywhere, actually - even in supposedly civilized lands - well, except for the Shire, of course, and for any important places in the story), no farms (except for, again, the Shire) but also no defenses outside the fortresses. No ditches or moats or any earthen defenses. The fortifications of Minas Tirith literally end at the outer wall and go straight into no mans land.
That's true and it was also admitted by the film crew (in the comments of the Hobbit trilogy). The reason was that with the technology of the time it would have costed too much, if I remember correctly.
Minas Tirith was already the capital of Gondor for 1400 years by this time. Quite some time for expansion.
Adrijana Radosevic
I think the point was that we see the nearby terrain where the fields and stuff should be but are not. However, I argee with that the movie focuses on the interesting stuff so it's no wonder we don't see any farmland - even where they should have some - since it plays no part in the plot.
I believe in that time they were hit with a plague lile disease and the Kin- Strife
The best defense is the "no entry" sign at 18:45
Interesting fact is that in the books there is a wider wall surrounding Minas Tirith, they are called "rammas" if I remember correctly, and there is farmland and many houses and other structures inside it. Great video and really good analysis!
About technology level and comparing Minas Tirith to Edoras. Minas Tirith was build by Gondor people who inherited remnants of Numenor knowledge. So basically it's comparing Byzantine Empire with some random Dark Ages European country.
Also, most Numenorean knowledge is long lost by the time movie events happen. As are Numenoreans themselves. As Elrond states - the blood of Numenor is all but spent.
Im confused, Byzantine empire lasted for many years in the middle ages and before and their tech wasnt always the same but it was never relly better then European middle ages tech. Europe was by far the most developed part of the world in the middle ages...
@@magikarp2063 Think about it as Gondor/Byzantines with the Theodosian Walls while Rohan has barely advanced much further than Motte and Bailey, and mostly use wood whereas Gondor uses stone.
@@deamongimli I get that gondor is more advanced then
rohan. Its the analogy I dont get, motte and bailey castle was an easy to build structure, not the best thing the medivals could make while theodosian walls were a great achievement. Why dont you compare it to some beautiful medival fortifications like the pierrefonds castle or something?
@@magikarp2063 I don't quite get your objection. The point is that the great stonework of the Numenorians is supposed to be an amazing achievement which man has forgotten how to replicate, while Rohan can only build things like Motte and Baileys unless they devote huge resources to build stone fortresses of their own which they don't really need.
For Minas Tirith, you also have to keep in mind that Gondor was founded by the Numenorians that escaped the Great Flood at the end of the Second Age. Meaning that they had inherited the masonry knowledge of say the elves of Gondolin, or Doriath. That's why the most impressive manmade architecture in LoTR (Minas Ithil, Minas Tirith, Orthanc, Fornost) were all miles ahead of what common man was able to do. Edoras isn't necessarily behind technologically, because the men of Gondor in the Third Age were no better.
I noticed how people commented on the walls of Edoras vs. Minas Tirith and I have some additional speculative points to add. The LOTR universe has a different time scale than ours does. Rohan is around 500 years old and with that fairly young. For comparison, Elrond, who might be rather old even for an elf (or half-elf) but far from the oldest resident of Middle Earth, is 6500 years, that is 13 times as old as that. Minas Tirith was built at least 3500 years ago, which in our universe corresponds to 1500 B.C., a time in which the Mycenaean greek, the Phoenicians and Ancient Egypt were around. The humans in Middle Earth do not live longer than we do (except for the Dunedain or Numenorians, of course) and while they propably have a better skill and information preservation, it is possible that no one in Gondor could go and help the people of Rohan build better walls, because they might not know how to either. One could argue that they would be able to learn the necessary skills from looking at the structures of Minas Tirith, but if there was indeed a decline of skill in the Third Age it could've been like during the early Middle Ages in our universe. Although they would likely recover a lot in 3000 years. Another factor one might have to consider are the Elves. During the time Minas Tirith was built the Numenorian refugees or Elendili were, as the name suggests, propably on good terms with the elven people. The Elves have indeed skill in building castles or fortified cities and experience with building in a mountain. They built the city of Gondolin, which was only conquered by a huge army of Balrogs and Orcs after its location was leaked and the Sindarin of Doriath did indeed live in a sort of hollowed out mountain (as far as I can remember). So they would've had the skill to aid the humans in the construction of Minas Tirith. Relations with the Elves, though, have worsened over the Third Age, so Rohan might not have had access to such techniques.
TL,DR: Minas Tirith was built thousands of years ago so techniques might have been lost and they were more friendly with the Elves who were good at building stuff.
I'm not a native English speaker and I've pulled all of this from my memory of reading LOTR and the Silmarillion so if I've made any mistakes in either language or facts, do point them out to me, please.
This was really fun to watch. I'm actually interested in seeing what you would have to say about the Black Tower oh, the Tower of Isengard, and Rivendell. Please consider doing a video on them too
The realism here still makes GOT s8e3 look like a cartoon
Untill you read the books
@@zazi5305 hes an idiot
Not really. Game of Thrones S8 castles were weird, but they were at least grounded in reality (it was the bad battles that made them worse). LotR forts are almost borderline insane from the very beginning when it comes to usefulness.
प्रियदर्शी I think what he means is that they don’t utilize the castles strengths at all in the battle of s8e3. Trebs not behind walls, setting a frontline in FRONT of a palisade type structure, lighting the trenches before anyone has even crossed them, not massing archers on walls directly behind the trenches, etc. someone made a whole video saying why the battle was just illogical. Might have been shad, but I’m not sure.
Thrones & L of Rings are both brilliant imo , there's so much trash atm remakes of classic movies which are always terrible & proves they're running out of fresh ideas,,
New movies that all seem the same, teen trash , fast non stop action movies are ok until you want something that makes you think, & there is nothing,,
I prefer series nowadays to movies, that's Netflix fault, s movie is over so quick , but series last longer, when I binge watch, I always notice loads that I missed when watching one after the other until I fall asleep,, ;)
He says "there should be a large outer wall all around the base" there is in the book it is surrounded by a wall 6 miles from the base of the city, the rammas echor which surrounded "the townlands" But in lore namely Minas tirith was a fortress not a city. Osgiliath was the capital
Emphasis on was, I don't remember the exact number of years but Osgiliath fell a Long time before the War of the Ring. And yeah, there was an outer wall surrounding the farmlands and such. Miss on the movie's part.
Théoden even mentions it in passing in the movies.
'Grimbold, take your company right, after you've passed the Wall!"
What Wall? It probably isn't referring to the first walls of Minas Tirith, it doesn't make sense if it does. The only Wall that would fit the bill is the Rammas Echor. And it doesn't even appear in the films.
Also, it has been 1,582 years since Osgiliath was laid to waste by Castamir, and 1,479 years since Minas Anor became the capital.
Minas Anor (as it was originally called) was designed as a fortress indeed. It was rebuild and enlarged at one point by king Ostoher and for a long time it was simply summer residence of the kings, while the capital proper was at Osgiliath. In the beginning of the kingdom brothers Anarion and Isildur had Minas Anor and Minas Ithil respectively under their authority while they held a joint rule over South Kingdom (their father Elendil as supreme High King ruled over both realms from Annuminas in the North-kingdom of Arnor)
"In Minas Ithil was the house of Isildur, and in Minas Anor the house of Anárion, but they shared the realm between them and their thrones were set side by side in the Great Hall of Osgiliath."
The Silmarillion, Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age
Minas Tirith (Anor) was surrounded by Pelennor Fields which were described as "rich townlands" with many farms, orchards, gardens, walls, homesteads, huts, buildings, fields with it's grassy pastures supported large herds of cattle. The outer wall of Minas Tirith of great thickness was nearly indestructible made of the same black stone as Tower of Orthanc (not even Ents with their super strength, able to tear apart solid stone like butter, could not scratch or damage it), the entire fortress was also located on a huge hill (called Hill of Guard) "out-thrust knee" of Mount Mindolluin. It is quite defensilble.
fantasywind Not to mention that there are hidden tunnels leading to and fro the mountain vales of the Ered Nimrais, which means the citizens of Minas Tirith have a way out, while supplies have a way in.
Also, the gates of the seven levels are on different sides of the city.
For example, the second gate is on the right side of the city, or the northern side, while the third gate is on the left side of the city, making it even harder for attackers to push up into the city, being peppered by arrows and rocks.
Truly a fortress.
Hey Shad, I love the videos, especially with your expertise on medieval architectural design. I am currently doing a deep dive on the Hornburg for a movie accurate 1/72 scale build. I completely agree that there should be a second gatehouse, and if you look reaaaaaaly closely at the ruins of the inner wall, you can see where a second gatehouse has completely fallen off of the structure; with machicolations less too 🤓👍
Good video brother. I just wished they had put in the Rammas Echor, the Great Wall that surrounded most of the Pelennor Fields after Osgiliath was abandoned. It wouldn’t have been hard to at least put a small glimpse in the movies, and it would have lent credence to the movies depiction of Minas Tiriths apparent small size. Considering a massive amount of civilians lived and worked outside the walls, it’s a shame. Guess you can’t have everything though...
Update: Jesus Christ people in the comment section really like to go for the throat huh...
Gonna build a wall and make Gondor pay for it?
oncemoreuntothebreach Yep
There is a wall around it, called Rammas Echor. It encloses the entire Pelennor Fields. Edoras also happens to have a little place called Helm's Deep nearby. Because Edoras is in a secluded location, they have plenty of warning if they need to move to the Deep for protection - the weak city walls shown in the movie are only for protection against foes on the scale of bandits.
Osgiliath didn't have a wall, it relied on a river to stop unwanted invaders, it fell.
Make Gondor great again
Aragon did actually!:)
Aight, gonna nitpick. First off the LotR setting is one where technology moves backwards, due to the constant wars and losses there was no room for progression (And Elves as the dominant culture of middle earth dont have a progressive bone in their bodies, give them a million years and they'd still be singing in the forests rather than developing guns) and the human population of middle earth was tiny compared to Medieval Europe (Which is not surprising given the lack of dark lords and creatures more evil than mosquitoes in Europe).
First off, Edoras.
Spot on with the lack of farms.
Edoras is home to Rohan, an dark age technology people roughly analogical to the anglo saxons or scandinavians. If you look of the size of non-roman anglo-saxon or Scandinavian cities they were actually quite small, closer to Edoras than the pictures you showed which were mostly late-medieval ones. Additionally they are a steppe horse people and do not dwell in cities.
The comparison to development of technology is a bit faulty, Gondor which built massive stone fortresses would in this case be Constantinople with its three-layered stone walls which were indeed contemporary with anglo-saxon hill-forts. There was no technological overlap there. In general LotR peoples dont really talk or learn from to each other much.
Minas Tirith
First off it was never intended to be a city it was built as a fortress. Minas Tirith means "The Tower of Guard" Osgiliath was the city it was defending from the west (The runined city on the river they fight over) and it was intended to work in conjunction with Minas Morgul from the south (The green evil fortress) which was lost at this time to Mordor and Cair Andros from the north encirceling Osgiliath in a ring of fortresses. At this time Mordor is almost finished slowly grinding down Gondors eastern defenses. Most of the populations of Gondor live further to the south in cities like Pelegir and Dol Amroth not on the very frontline in Minas Tirith which was partially abandoned at this time. Thats why it was built like that and not very practical.
Secondly the trebuchets would never fit behind the wall, as you said yourself the streets were narrow enough as it is xD
Helms Deep.
Good points on the lack of moats, secondary gate and drawbridge. However on the crenelations they are covered in historical fortresses and you actually show pictures of crenelation in that style. 13:57
As for the lack of extensions. Well there's two of them in the deeping wall you did not mention as seen on the pictures and you have the hornburg itself with its towers covering the deeping wall as well. As far as defensive structures go it got a very well done layered defense. Within a small area you have three different defensive platforms each covering each other.
The reason they dont have crenelations on the inside is because if they lost the outer wall the archers on the inner wall could fire at the enemy unobstructed. If there were crenelations there then they'd basically give cover to the enemy.
As for lore, the lack of the inner gate is probably because they rotted away long ago, and the Rohirrim which dont know squat about fortifications never replaced them. Helms deep was built by gondor.
to be fair for Helms deep though It was a LOT smaller when the Rohirim took over it. Helm Hammerhand had a part in making it a lot bigger and more defensible. I would argue that the Rohirrim do know how to make fortresses but just don't have the mines or the real want to do it since they are a semi-nomadic people.
this is fantastic, i wanted to say all of these things myself, but to add to it, i'd say that Edoras lacks the defensive architecture of minas tirith for several reasons: one being that men are 'diminished' and are basically going through a dark age- think of minas tirith like roman architecture that some anglo saxons are trying to defend from marauding danes. basically, the architects that could make that stuff happen are few and far between if they even exist at all in the end of the third age. what's more, while gondor is a culture formed from the pinnacle of men, the numenoreans, and they're in a state of decline, rohan is just another random culture that came to their aid in an ancient war, thereby becoming allies and neighbors.
Minas tirith i don't have much more to say about, other than the fact that the film hardly displays rammas echor, the far larger ring-wall around minas tirith. it may be that for defensive reasons the land between this wall and the front gate of the city is kept cleared.
The hornburg was never really intended to be a fantastic fortress, but it was better than the rohirrim could make themselves, so they kept it crudely repaired and it worked. however, in the books, gimli remarks that the dwarves could make it a fortress that armies would break on like waves against a rock- perhaps he sees the relatively small improvements that could be made for huge effect (the crenels would actually be the right size for them too, unless they were standing on boxes).
overall, middle earth as we see it in lord of the rings is in a state of war. minas tirith is a great fortress, it would be reasonable to assume that it could manage whatever was thrown at it. hornburg, when the population of rohan aren't sheltering in it, is a relatively pointless fortification and throwing funds at making it more defensible probably isn't a good choice, and frankly both edoras and helm's deep were under theoden's rule... who was mind controlled by saruman. if saruman were looking to conquer rohan, why would he make king theoden beef up his fortifications for the coming war? when the mind control is over, theoden knows edoras is poorly defended and sends everyone to helm's deep.
while the fortifications could be better in LotR, frankly i think they make sense- except for the lack of farmland, i noticed that too and it sort of irritated me. the size of the cities more or less makes sense to my mind too, but going into discussing the size of countries, what proportion of the population mobilizes in times of war etc. seems a bit too much theory for me to want to go into.
The points you covered are the reasons why I love the fanfic Saurman of Many Devices. It's an alternate take where he develops into the Urukhai and Orcs into a army that uses rifles, cannons, and gun powder to effectively combat Sauron and his armies.
People definately lived within the Rammas Echor on the pelennor Fields
"It was a great wall, over 10 leagues in length, encircling the hitherto
defenseless townlands of the city. At it furthest point, it was four
leagues from the Great Gate. There were three main gates to the Pelennor; north, east and south.[2] The eastern gate and accompanying watch-towers were known as the Causeway Forts[3] and were the strongest section. It looked out over the road to Osgiliath and the banks of the Anduin. On the southern end, at Harlond, the wall was only one league from the city.[2]"
I was going to comment on the video but now I rather comment on your comment xD, just the first part that got me thinking, the one about the Elves. I think you are quite right, they would continue to live on in forest or riverside or shore or a cavernous city built by the dwarves and not develop guns... but thats just because the more progresive 'people' of the elven race answer to the summon of the Valar in the first age. When some of them (the sons of Finwë) came to ME happened almost the same thing as when the Numenoreans did: The Noldor build fortressess and castles and reigns and became the dominant culture of their time.
Why Rohan, at peace time, would invest resources in fortifications?
The Rohan strength is in open field with cavalry. They would meet their enemies there.
Also, there was no time to build or buy defense fortifications by the time that Theoden, the king, was set free from Saruman's mental spell and alert about the imminent danger...
I like this RUclips channel because of the historical realistic analisis.
Conclusion: The Castles had an average design. They could have done better! I agree with the constructive criticism 👍😊
Learnt a lot here, keep it up!
thats a very good point
Shad, my goodness, you are such an excellent speaker. I followed your review so well. Bravo sir, Bravo!!!!
The Deeping Wall is the perfect height for Dwarves.
Problem is that the crenels look way too narrow to fire arrows through, at least in any directions other than straight forward. in addition to it being too short for human height (its supposed to be manned by *men*, not dwarves) then it really defeats the purpose of having crenelations in the first place.
@@RJALEXANDER777 Dwarves aren't really archers, and are shown to use mechanical siege weapons in the Extended edition of Battle of the Five Armies, so they wouldn't really need a wall built for archers.
Ah you spelt four wrong. Battle of Four Armies
@@uglyduckling81 Ironfoot, Laketown, Woodland Elves, Orcs, Eagles. If you want to be technical, there are the Orcs of Dol Guldur and the Gundabad Orcs. So you could really say six.
Orcs were all controlled by one guy, therefore one army. Dwarf, Elf, Man. Eagles aren't an army, they are an ally sure but certainly not an army.
4:16 If you read the books you’d know that the craft needed to build the walls of minas tirith was lost, even to the men of Gondor.
he specifies at the very beginning of the video that hes reviewing the movie castles, not the book ones.
@@dangernoodle3343 That excuses how many things he got wrong? I'm not bashing him, I'm a fan of the channel. Still is irritating when so many of his issues with the castles are explain with a quick Google or wiki search...
He didn't even need to read the books. Technological and economic disparities between different nations are only realistic. The comparison between Gondor and Rohan is like the comparison between Rome or Constantinople and some Norse/East-European tribals in the Middle Ages. Just because Constantinople was built out of stone and had a big wall surrounding it didn't mean some Norse king could just send and emissary to say "I like your walls, could you make similar ones for me" and suddenly there's a Constantinople in Sweden. Rohan is consistently portrayed as technologically less advanced, less wealthy kingdom compared to Gondor, if their capital was as advanced as Minas Tirith it would be very unrealistic
@@exantiuse497 Osgiliath > Constantiople
I always thought it was obvious that Rohan are a lot poorer than Gondor.
The area surrounding Minas Tirith (in the novel, that is) was enclosed by a wall and contained farmland and several defensive ramparts. That being said, another enjoyable video, well done.
Shad I feel like you've missed a lot of research here. Minas tirith was surrounded by pellenor fields, which was rich and cultivated farmland, but the shots and timeframes in which the lotr films were shot, happen during wartime, whole sections of both Rohan and minas tirith were aflame or completely in ruins. Including osgiliath, the Capitol of gondor. Also, minas tirith was constructed on a spiral ramp, so ascending would be winding around like a spiral, rather than climbing like a stairway
I think he was just going off of what we saw in the movies to see how well the movie makers did when making a realistic fortress/city.
I believe that there are staircases at almost every level though, I am not 100% positive on tolkiens version, but mostly it was just a gradual slope up to the next level with maybe 20 feet or so of stairs at the end of each level to be more defensive.
Whoa, whoa. Hornburg was built by the dwarves. Perfect dwarven height!
It was too height for Gimli to see over the wall.
No it was not! Do your own research.
It was made by the numenoreans not dwarves.
That makes it equally impractical. What's the point of dwarf-height wall when there's no slits for the defenders to fire at the attackers?
Not if you cant see above them to shoot the enemies. And dont tell me dwarves arent archers cause that is yet another problem with fantasy races, they are not realistic in their ways of war. Yeah you like the axe, but what about when you cant reach the enemy??
Using polystyrene as the building material may have been their biggest mistake.
Must totally agree with you!
I always assumed that elodras was small because Rohan was mostly nomadic and it was just a governmental town, but that was my guess
I am late to this as I just watched the video. Has anyone mentioned that Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul as well as Sarumon's keep were built by the high men (first men, it's been awhile since I read the books). The capital of Rohan was built by common men. The technology of the greater buildings is lost.
Good point. But I’m pretty sure Barad’ur was built my Sauron himself. Or at least his army. In the middle earth timeline it says that Sauron constructed it.
Concerning the technology of Rohirrim compared with the Gondorian people:
The people of Gondor originate from Númenor. Númenor was a big island granted to 3 clans of Men in the First Era by the Valar (kinda gods), because of their brave deeds in the wars against the First Dark Lord. The Valar granted those Men - the three clans were called the Édain or in the Third Age the Dunédain - a longer lifespan, great knowledge of forging , CUTTING STONE (!) and a whole lot more. Actually, the Valar granted the (Dun)Édain a taste of the Elven race. But the Númenorean Édain grew more jealous and jealous of the immortality and other privileges of the Elves, so they attacked the Valar. Hence, their island Númenor got sunken into the sea and their assaulting army got defeated. A few Édain, called the Elffriends, did not participate the attack against the Valar but escaped to Middle-earth. They founded the realms Arnor and Gondor. That's why Gondorian people are much more skilled in almost everything, than the Rohirrim. Of course, the Rohirrim is not a folk of Númenor and they do not have those skills.
Longest comment evah
The main problem the Rohirrim face in building Edoras to Gondorian standards is that even Gondor had lost the ability to build in stone on the scale of their ancient cities by the time Rohan was founded. And the Dwarves had also retreated from significant commerce with men, so they also couldn't hire in a dwarven stonemason to do the work.
The technology required to build architectural marvels has been gained and lost more than once in human history - living in a city built to last an Age ago isn't the same thing as having the ability to build another today.
Yes and we have real life examples! After Rome Fall the Dark age begun! The remaining cities had great walls but thier new owners (Barbarians) Had no technology to repair nor expand these fortifications! Many times there were lucky tribes who held a great fort from the Roman age while their neighbours had to live in a self made town protected by basic palacade.
***** Yep, the Dwarves gave a new gate to king Elessar, made out of mithril! For Minas Tirith of course.
Matthew Nickolas While you are correct about the "schizo tech" of the neighboring fortifications, it's not because that technology was lost. Infrastructure and economy were the limiting factors: large stone walls are usually time consuming, and expensive to build.
Well damn, you've put a tarnish on the trilogy for me now. Not broken them, by any means, but... yeah.
I can't believe it never occurred to me that Minas Tirith was just plopped down there with NOTHING outside it; no farms, no structures, no grazing for herds. Granted what we saw were 'dark days', where there was constant threat of war, so you'd want to be close to a safe place, but that's exactly why you'd have your farms and flocks as close to the city as possible, so you could retreat inside if hostile forces approached.
And if it's so dangerous that you don't dare go outside the walls to work your fields or tend your herds, then you're already under siege, and pretty much screwed anyway.
Great video; love your channel.
I think the fact that seemingly obvious stuff like this can just slip by our perception speaks of how enjoyable and engaging the films were. I certainly didn't notice it the first several times I watched the films.
It has buget me too but allso I think part of the missing farms and lifestock is from movies creation to grow or rent large number of animals for such scenes of edit them vould be dam dificult.
they did a large prep time to make the shire believable but for reasons of having a reversible set for edoras, they obviously cannot set up those fields unless on a raised platform or through CG. just having the patchwork of fields by CG with some close ups my means of a stage or set could resolve this situation with out being unreasonable, this will only be a thing if it is demanded how ever and as we are now we dont nessisary know what to look for.
Tolkien did not forget it. But we should also not forget that the movies were on a very tight budget compared to the scope. The whole trilogy cost less than than a single big production in the US. New Zealand was not just a great location, it was also far cheaper to do it there and there was a huge effort to come up with ways to cut on costs without compromising the vision. This makes the result even more stunning.
I am angry about quite a lot of decisions made plot and character-wise but the visual artistry is beyond anything that could have been expected.
Or it just speaks for what we are taught about history. Nothing. I mean... if LotR would be supposed to look like today's civilisations, everyone would ask where the streets, tracks, or industry districts were.
‘There should be another expansive wall’ - the Rammas echor was 35 miles in length and enclosed the pelennor field
You have no idea how much I’ve thought about the missing farmland of middle earth, could not get over it
OK Shad. Usually you're spot on. But you overlook a number of things in this.
1) The Rohirrm are specifically said to be tribal. They gather by moot, not levy. Edoras is for a glorified Jarl and his court. It is not the redoubt of the people. And tribal warriors could gather huge armies. See the Danes or Mongols.
2) Minas Tirith was not the intended capital. It was the last of Osgiliath's bastions. The final fortress of the fallen capital. And the stoutest of them. Because it was intended as such.
3) I can't defend the movie's Helm's Deep. That was so different from the book portrayal I don't know what Peter Jackson was doing.
Can you explain why Minas Tirith's towers break like they were made of Lego in the third movie siege. It was pretty absurd in my opinion.
@@manolgeorgiev9664 the walls are so strong that the orcs catapults have no effect. So it's just for the films sake they also never enter minas tirith the rohirrim show up just as they break through.
@@Dayrahl They did enter Minas Tirith up untill the upper levels.
@@ro2592 in the movies yes but not in the book.
@Ensiferum Fan the movies?? I'm defending the honour of the books which themselves are the true canon.
Minas Thirit is also not a city, it was a fortress, Gondor Capital was Osgiliath.
francesco miele doesnt mean it has to be big, and they wont expand in a war, osgiliath was that much bigger
francesco miele still, the initial design of minas tirith was to be as a vanguard for osgiliath. A fortress, not a city. Plus, Gondor also has huge population centers in its southern regions like at Pelargir and Dol Amroth
not a vanguard, vanguards are in front. If anything, I would call Minas ANOR, along with The Orthanc, to be more of links between Arnor and Gondor, and also the homes of some of the palantiri, with others at osgiliath, Minas Ithil, Annúminas, Elostirion, and Amon Sul. However, the Minas Ithil Palantir was lost to Sauron, Osgiliath i believe went into the river, and all the arnorian ones were lost, i believe to the ocean when the king attempted to escape by sea.
Thanks for using your brain
Christopher Taylor a rearguard then, if you prefer (really depends on your perspective and direction of approach). The point still stands that it was a defensive bastion for osgiliath and that was it’s original purpose. When the time came for a retreat to minas tirith (the tower guard by its name) they were well into the third age and I’m fairly certain they had lost a lot of the splendor and knowledge of the old days of numenor. Not to say that Gondor was weak, something boromir is sure to reiterate in the books, but they were more focused on surviving a war than making advances in architecture. That being said, there doesn’t seem to be a lot of technological innovation in middle earth anyway, with thousands of years passing and people continuing to use the same weapons, armors, etc.
Awesome!
Just found out you made this by sheer chance..
Putting the kettle NOW!
They were herdsmen, you can't raise large horseherds in a city. Look at ancient Mongols, they didn't have huge cities.
But then where are their fields
@@Koyomix86 Obviously somewhere that wasn't shot in the movie...haha.
The surroundings could just be for grazing
My theory about the smallness of the cities is that in the films, "men" as a race are doing pretty poorly compared to their glory days. That may also be why the surrounding land looks very dead instead of full of food. Just kind of portrays visually to the audience that Middle Earth is in a period of decline and is not very fruitful in many ways. Still unrealistic, but it effectively sends the message to viewers without having to say it outright.
It's post apocolyptic, all of the wars that happened in history reduced the various populations of sapient creatures to near extinction, including orcs and trolls and things.... what the film manages to depict is a land that was once poulated and cultivated that has had a hundred or so years to go back to being wilderness.
The thing is that in the books technology in middle earth was mostly tied to magic and by the third age magic is leaving middle earth fast, so knowledge of how to build the advanced and litterally magical stonework the makes up Helms Deep and Minias Tirith have been lost.
also the fields outside Minas Tirith are supposed to be farmland in disuse because of the siege and wintertime but the movie went with empty fields. Edoras is small because it's not actually a city city, it's more of an Administrative center where lords and officals live, as such they don't grow their own food they import it from the farming villages that make up most of Rohans population. Rohan is basically the Vikings but instead of sailors they are mongols.
Thats a nice theory but I think the awnser is that they didt have THAT much budget lol
Re: Minas Tirith
It was never intended to be the largest city in Gondor -- it really is much too small for that. It was meant as a protective tower, in tandem with the dark tower on the other side of the river (not Sauron's eye, the other creepy looking one), that was lost to the humans. Combined, it was Gondor's defense against Sauron and forces from that region.
Where the river is, in between those two towers, was the giant, huge city of Gondor that was really the capital -- Osgiliath. But that's the city where the humans and orcs were fighting -- and was completely lost to the humans before the Battle of Gondor.
There are some other large cities across Gondor around the ocean, etc. I imagine their populations are also larger than Minas Tirith.
So, yes, Minas Tirith is too small to be the true capital of Gondor. But that's only because the real capital (Osgiliath) had been laid waste to by the time LOTR's story starts.
Very good video though!
+Ryeguy123a
With the dark tower on the other side are you referring to Minas Ithil, aka Minas Morgul, the city Frodo and Sam pass when they go to see Shelob?
Excellent info on Osgiliath, I didn't know.
explains the importance of retaking it
Well retaking it wasn't so much important for living. After Minas Ithil was (re)taken (it was taken again when Sauron returned while be abandoned prior), the towers that originally guarded where the Black Gate is were taken, and so on, Osgiliath was highly vulnerable and there was no intention to live there. However, it was the only place where Anduin could be easily crossed for many, many miles. The nearest other possible crossing was either all the way down at the deltas by the sea and all the way up at or past the Rauros Falls.
Hmmm Minas Tirith was never intended to be the capital of Gondor... Osgiliath was the capital...
The other tower is Minas Morgur. Minas Tirit was a castle that protected refuges of Osgiliath during the war and has naver fallen to the enemy. But it was also a place when the King of Gondor resided. like London and Castle of Tower.
Where's the damn farmland!!!😂
Oh this is an incredible video, I often thought the sizes and lack of farmland was an issue.
If The Hornburg had a drawbridge and a moat I can't help but think that would've been over powered resulting in the use of landslide tactics with explosives from the mountain
The reason for the rohirim being behind in building technology is because the big castles are lost technology of the ancient numanoreans. The people of middle earth are living in cities created thousands of years in the past that they don't have the ability to recreate. Minustirith, orthanc, Corith ungle, the black gate, minus Morgal, and helms deep, among all the ruins strewn about middle earth were all ancient numanorean strongholds.
Also think of them as strong holds of an ancient empire like Rome or Egypt that is still utilized. We don't understand how the pyramids were made but they have held up really well over thousands and thousands of years.
ya, the Hornburg, Isenguard are all relecs of the past. Rohan are based on a combinations of the Goths and the Ango-Saxons, who in general did not build in stone that much. they took over Roman Ruins but did not really build their own stone structures. London for instance took advantage of its Roman era walls but the English did not originally improve it.
MR.Chickennuget 360 exactly, granted the movies could have explained it better than they did but that being said they were left overs from an ancient civilization that spanned all of middle earth. That is why there were ruins all over the place.
"We don't understand how the pyramids were made" i don't think this is true. we might not have a fully comprehensive model, but we understand many, many things about how the pyramids were built.
you are absolutely right but man my inner tolkien geek really cringed at how you butcher the names
4:00 ... uhm you should've read the books then. The art of constructing those magnificent cities has been long lost to mankind in the third age. They just maintain the cities, but are not capable of building them. that's why edoras is kinda low tech, eventhough they are a big nation. And they cannot hire anyone, cause no one still knows how to build that. Except maybe the elves, and they just dont give a fuck about the humans mostly. They just want to go home to Valinor.
And about minas tirith: there is a big wall around the land around minas tirith. It is called the pelenor. It is even mentioned in the movie, so here you can take from the book I guess. Where they say the pelenor fields are used as farmland ...
Most of the elves left in Middle-earth are Sylvan Elves anyway, they'd have no idea how to build a big stone city. The only Noldor left are a few people in Rivendell and a few more around the Grey Havens.
He's not analysing the books, therefore they are irrelevant.
A lot of people in this comment section not getting that.
and galadriel
Liamjm lol the construction for the castles CAME from the books, and since the filmmakers didn't deviate from the books, but FOLLOWED them, they ARE in fact relevant since they are the direct cause of the castles looking that way.
The point about the defensive value of the Minas Tirith cake layers is actually explained just like that in the book, it is supposed to be hell for attackers to take the main keep at the top because they have to fight through an entire level, then up the stairs at the end, then the stairs for the next level will be at the other end, it was built as an impossible to take fortress that later was turned into a city.
I know it's been 3 years, but I really like Shad's videos and the way he looks insightfully at fantasy, and I also really love lord of the rings, so I wanted to leve my little rant here :p
Very interesting and exciting video. I love this topic.
Rohimir? really? But yeah, the size of Edoras was weird to me too. Tolkien gave the impression of a much larger city.
Anyway, In the books the Pelennor fields(outside Minas Tirith) were huge farmlands surrounded by an outer wall. It stretched for 1 league (IIRC) out from the citywalls in a huge ring.
tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:Ted_Nasmith_-_Minas_Tirith_at_Dawn.jpg
I really like this drawing of Minas Tirith, it looks much better IMO
The glittering caves were discovered by Gimli, while fighting in the defence of the Hornburg, before that they were just caves. The Hornburg was in a strategic location because it guarded Helm's Deep, which was a large valley of strategic importance in old times. Also, long before the time of the war of the ring the Hornburg held a Gondorian regiment, defending that part of Gondor.
Sorry, I keep putting in comments before watching on, but new comments would make it spamming, so that's the reason for the edits. Also, sorry for nitpicking a bit, but I love the Lord of the Rings. Also Tolkien's description of the different cities/fortresses are more plausible, though not very detailed.
Bram den Braber thanks for referring to the books
I think he's refering to the movie not the books in this video.
horace harris, true the video takes a look at the castles from the movies not the book, but it's still important to note that it wasn't necessarily the fault of Tolkien that these faults exist, but mostly of the ones interpreting the books and making it a visual reality (which is probably a huge endeavour, especially around the time the movies were made).
Lewisking50 Yeah your right about that.
I bet they scaled it down to cut back on using money.
Regarding Rohan and Edoras. Did horse people in real life gather up in massive cities behind giant walls like you suggest Rohan should?
I dont think so. The known horse people tend to be at least half-nomadic. The Monghols had a big capital at one point, but from the limited knowledge I have that still was built rather lightly with lots of tents and wood and didn´t last all that long.
Ever heard about Karakorum or Khanbaliq? Pretty huge cities for their time.
They didn't if they were the Mongols.
There are a fair number of cases, at least when nomadic peoples conquer territory instead of simply raiding.
Kublai Khan For example built a new capital near what is today Beijing in order to be able to administer both china and mongolia effectively.
And the medieval kingdom of Hungary was founded by steppe nomads that settled down in conquered territory.
Rohan also is half-nomadic at most by the time of the third age and isn't strictly a cavalry-only people either, the reinforcements Gandalf brought in the books during the battle of the Hornburg was infantry after all instead of cavalry as in the movies.
no they didn't. unless they had conquered other peoples
Hey Shad. Big fan and Patron supporter here. Love your videos and delivery.
One query I did have relative to this video though is why, while you emphasize the genius of the recessed gate, the principle you assert following 12:30 wouldn't have made even more sense placing a gate in line with the outer walls - then the recess - then from there I agree with you completely.
I just fail to see why you'd compliment the design of the recessed gate and not mention how the opportunity was missed to place a gate beyond the first one for attackers to break through.
Keep up the great work. A devoted fan and fellow student
Steven
I need MORE CASTLE VIDEOS!!!
I just can't get enough of them. So hopefully we'll get some soon! :)
Edoras isn't that big because the population of Rohan IS spread out, if you remember in the books and in the movies Eomer and a few others were sent to scour Rohan to muster the Rohirim. So yes, Rohans population is spread out and Edoras doesn't need to be that big because of this.
Dustin Hickey it reminds me about the mongoks in history, also thus spread out and with horses
It shouldn't remind you of the Mongols, Karakorum was huge. Shad is right, Edoras should be bigger. It's even bigger in the books anyway.
He literally addressed that argument at 1:22. Literally no country aside from nomadic ones work like that. People are attracted to large cities. There's more security, more business, more luxuries, more opportunity than as a peasant farmer whose gonna spend his whole life in the dirt, taxed dry by his local lord, and in the wide open for raiders.
Now, of course not everyone's gonna be there. A feudal society will naturally have a majority serf population who do not have the choice to leave like a freeman. But those who can will definitely huddle up in cities that are naturally and economically advantageous, generally where a capital is located. There's good reason the capital is almost always the pinnacle of any given society.
Peasant farmers do not stay under the thumbs of their lords for lack of a city to move to, but by the compulsion of their lords. In a nearly completely agricultural society there is not a lot of reason to move to a town (other than to enjoy the filth).
"spread out" is way missleading. When you live in wasteland like they did, you either have no kingdom at all, living all by their owns, or you concentrate into big distant cities. This is small town in middle of nowhere, with no farmlands and viliiages at sight, not a capital of kingdom with strong and respected army.
Rohan doesn't need a capital city at all, just a place for the king to sit.
Not only is Rohan a rather large country, also every man is a rider. When the king called for the Rohirrim to ride one last time, not every soldier stationed in the capital came, but every single citizen of the whole country. What you see riding there isn't an army, it's the countries' entire male polulation.
Forth, and fear no darkness! Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Spears shall be shaken, shields shall be splintered! A sword day... a red day... ere the sun rises!
Ride now!... Ride now!... Ride! Ride to ruin and the world's ending! Death! Death! DEATH!
Forth, Eorlingas!
0lfan
And that's completely unrealistic in and of itself.
But still true, according to the books.
CATwoman 1
Mayhaps, but when discussing realism it's not a better explanation. A nation being able to call from seven to ten percent of its able bodied men to arms is about the absolute maximum. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to maintain farms, livestock, and other logistical duties. The economy would crumble under such a weight. You could probably get away with the ten percent, maybe even a little bit higher, in LotR's context because they are at total war. It's a do or die situation so risking to break your economy is worth it, because the alternative is so much worse, but then I'd expect the nation to fall apart or at least have years if not decades of slow recovery from that one incident. I would also expect to see famine to be a wide spread problem after the war.
Furthermore, they wouldn't have been able to get every able bodied man to the battlefield and organized in such a time frame, nor would they be able to feed such a mass of troops. But you also wouldn't have to pay them as this was pretty much do it or you are going to be killed by orcs and your lands plundered and children slaughtered and probably eaten, so that'd be an amazing motivator. Overall, not a better explanation, but it's Fantasy, so we can suspend some realism... maybe a wizard fixed it for them somehow...
Catwoman 1 not even in the books they called the entire population of rohan, is obvious since in the sagrary, theoden complained they didnt had enough time to gather all the spears/riders rohan had, he even speaks about doubling the number wtih enough time, they look massive but according the books they were 6000 not a really big army if u take in consideration for example alexander the great had close to 100 000 in the peak of his campaings and they were all professional soldiers. a standar roman legion were 5000 men and each was considered a mobile city.
This is the true reason Aragorn didn't want to be king. All those darn steps!
Thank you very mch for this video, especially the part of the Hornburg is quite entertaining, and you are absolutely right in your analysis.
Just two small comments:
First, the architecture of Rohan is indeed to be considered massively different from that of Gondor. You are right, import of architectural means, techniques and styles was frequent in the Middle Ages, but these are not the Middle Ages. The Rohirrim moved into Calenardhon when Gondor was declining, and according to Tolkien, contact between the various people became scarce afterwoods. Indeed, if we were to compare the times of the Middle Earth of the LOTR to real Europe, we should arrive at something like the Dark Ages; think of the Germanic tribes who did not have the capacity to adopt the Roman ways of building after invading Roman provinces (e.g., Britain). Plus, the knowhow had passed in Rome itself. The same happened in Gondor. Hence, Gondoreans virtually lived in archaeological evidence of their own past, without them being capable of replicating it: The demolished gate of Minas Tirith had to be replaced by the Dwarves (!) after the war!
Second, just a minor detail. In my visits to the castle of Criccieth, Gwynedd, I liked to stand on the catapult tower. There's only its foundations and a bit of stonework left standing, and I think there is no evidence a catapult has ever been erected on top of the structure, but it was built for the purpose. Hence, obviously, at least in some instances, medieval fortresses did have engines on the walls, or were designed to be able to.
Minas tirith is a fortress.
No
@@Heisenberg929 - No, it is a fortress. The real capital city of Gondor is Osgiliath which is now in ruins after being invaded by Orcs and plague.
But it has the tree and citadel. It must be capital.
@@hovnousek1962 there were 2 white trees I believe, belonging to Isildur at Minas Ithil (Morgul), and to the King of Arnor. When Ithil was overrun Isildur took a Sapling of the white tree and planted it at his new residence in Minas Tirith. Osgiliath was the capital for many years before being destroyed.
@@hovnousek1962, Osgiliath was the capital of Gondor until T.A. 1640, when the Great Plague wiped out most of the massive city's population. It just seemed better to the Kings of Gondor to relocate to the great fortress of Minas Tirith (which literally means "Tower of the Guard" in Sindarin) than the ghost of Osgiliath.
Shad, my excellent fellow, would you consider doing a review of some of the evil strongholds of the Lord of the Rings? Cirith Ungol, Isengard, and of course Barad Dur would be LEGENDARY!
Don't forget Minas Morghul
yeah! and Moranon!
@@sharkfacemlg Minas Morgul is actually a twisted city of Men, having been formerly named Minas Ithil the city of light. After it's capture in the mid third age, it was corrupted by the Witch King of Angmar, but it was a man made city, with a composition that brought both the style of Osgiliath and the Defensive strategy of Minas Tirith together.
What about the elven cities
@@Polarisk2106 Minas Ithil meant Tower of the Moon, Minas Anor (now Minas Tirith) means Tower of The Sun
I have often wondered about this, personally because I have read the books many times. I love the designs of the buildings, their amazing. The biggest issue I have, is with the fighting style. It's chaotic and all over the place. Merlons, the pointy part of the battlement, I learned something new today.
Oh nice! you put in the picture of Montebello Castle in Ticino Switzerland! I leave nearby and I played on that wall many times as a child!
I don't want to nit pick but minas tirith is NOT the capital of gondor. The capital is Osgiliath which is across the pelennor fields, minas tirith is one of two military strongholds that protect osgiliath the other being minas ithil which was renamed minas morgul after the armies of mordor captured it
And if you look osgiliath is definitely big enough to be a capital
Hey Yo Minas Tirith is the capitol during LoTR. Osgiliath used to be the capitol tho.
they are under constant threat cause the enemy is right freaking there in front of them. Yeah it would be great to put houses all around the castle but that would be ruined immediately and provide cover for the enemy forces.
The movie isn't like real life where you have the luxury of diplomacy and trade to make your castle a last resort. The enemies intention wasn't to take its people, it was to kill them.
Obviously the movies could have made things better with the design in terms of function. Nobody went to see a working economy, proper design, and function. They went to see AWSOME never before seen things, things that don't look like what we have and know but what we couldn't have. People didn't go in thinking "I hope I get to see a lot of farms, houses, and real life designs."
That being said these analysis are fun to watch after the fact.
While such realism might not have been Peter Jackson's priority, it certainly was for J.R.R. Tolkien when he wrote the books. He studied history, and constructed complete languages and calendars for his fantasy world, all to make it as realistic as possible (apart from monsters and magic, that is). Some of that realsims carried over inot the movies. Some of it did not.
I wish he talked about Osgiliath. But I guess it being easily accessed by ships is probably a major weakness. Looks like a good trading post tho.
Minis Tirith was known as Minas Anor (Tower of the Sun) and Minas Ithil (tower of the moon) is now known as Minas Morgal and was controlled by the enemies. These were sister cities for northern defense, and were only created for defending against the threat from what is known as Mordor in The Lord of the Rings. So Minas Tirith was only built as a defensive city. The King or ruler would only be there in time of war and great danger.
Osgiliath was the true capital, and had the most people living in it. Indeed, Minas Tirith was only a defensive city, and was only made the capital when Osgiliath fell into ruin after the great plague and the constant attacks from Mordor and the Corsairs of Umbar killed most of the Gondorian population there.
What he didn't mention here either is that, like the Hornburg, it has offset gates and gatehouses, which means the exact defensive advantage he tried to give Helm's Deep was a significant advantage in Minas Tirith because it was done properly! The orcs never made it past the first level of the city either, because it was super difficult to capture, as Shad mentioned. They had no way to get a battering ram into the city itself and they relied on a troll with a hammer to break down the rest of the gates (it was doing a piss-poor job at it too). Unless the Witch King and his fell beasts started flying in troops on the upper levels, the city could have held out for months even after being breached, especially if the defenders managed to kill the trolls.
Is anor a real word in a foreign language? I think it means ancestor.
Im only asking because theres a game called dark souls with a city called Anor londo and the theme of the sun is common in dark souls. does anor mean sun or ancestor?
According to Google Translate "anor" seems to mean "ancestry" in Swedish. :P Would not be surprised if that was right. Tolkien was a linguist long before he was an author.
Anor means ancestors, singular (seldom used) "en ana".
Anor in Tolkien's Sindarin means "sun". Not "son", but "sun".
Depends on whether you count Sindarin as a real language.
Ancestors is what "anor" means in Swedish, which is another language.
I believe the lesson here is "even if it's not ideal, it does not mean it's not realistic". Most things in our life aren't ideal. If the books give a good enough explanation to why things are the way they are, then they correctly represent reality.
The books describe those cities completely differently with a lot more farmland around them. The real reason why the films did not add farmland around their cities was the budget I believe.
I was actually surprised that Minith-Tirith didn't have some sort of simple pulley based elevator system for moving large items, and maybe the royal family up and down
Maybe inside the mountain?
would have been nice to establish it. and have the plot thicken when Mordor breaks it via Nazgul air support.
Alright let me go through this:
Edoras:
So Edoras looks the way it does for about 3 reasons. Edoras wasn't the original capitol of Rohan. The original capitol was Aldburg which was just Southeast of Edoras around Dunharrow. Only in the past 200 years or so did Rohan's capitol move to where it currently is and Aldburg was given to the third marshal of the mark (Eomer). Also most of Rohan's population lived in the Westfold of Rohan. The rest were nomadic peasants who had small villages here and there. Second, about Rohan's army. Rohan doesn't have a standing army. They have about 3 groups of 200 or 300 horseman who patrol the Riddermark. Eomer is one of the commanders of these patrol groups. Then they have the guard of the city of Edoras, which is basically the army we see fighting the wargs in TTT. So when we see Rohan muster it's full might that is the entire population of Rohan coming together to fight the war. This is something they rarely do. For example, they didn't muster the army when Theoden fled to Helms Deep. The army that Gandalf arrived with was simply all 3 of the patrol groups together led by Eomer, Earkenbrand, and Elfhelm. Lastly, Rohan was already in a major decline by the time of TTT. Theoden was already possessed by Saruman for roughly 30 years. This was the time in between the beginning of Fellowship to where Frodo actually sets out. 26 years to be exact. So many of the marshals like Eomer recognized the corruption and many of the capitol dwellers left for other locations like Aldburg and the Westfold. Rohan was up the creek economically by TTT. I will grant you that. And Rohan didn;t need an army. Why would they? They had Gondor between them and Mordor and Fangorn and Lothlorien between them and Dol Guldur. And they all thought Saruman was protecting the from the north. So, Rohan didn't need these huge structures to build off of. They had Helms deep to retreat to. Edoras was just the capitol, Helms Deep was the fortress.
Minas Tirith:
The same goes for Gondor. Minas Tirith was a work of Numenorian make. The Numenorians came back to Middle Earth and build huge structures like Minas Tirith, Minas Anor, Minas Ithil. the Argonth, and Fornost. The main city and capitol city of Gondor was Osgiliath. Osgiliath was ransacked at the end of the second age by Sauron. So the people of Gondor named Minas Tirith their capitol. It was always the seat of the king however. The reason we don't see farmlands around Minas Tirith and Osgiliath is because these are port cities. All the food and resources came down the Anduin and up to Palargir to the cities. Minas Tirith is huge. It is not given a proper representation from the shots in the movie however. And it says in the book that Minas Tirith could house ten timed the men it currently held. And Gondor wasn't a horse culture, they had Rohan for that. Another large city in Gondor is Dol Amroth. A good chunk of Gondor's population lives around there and in the Anfelas/Befalas region because it was of less threat to Mordor as opposed to Osgiliath and Minas Tirith which are located right in front of Mordor. Literally. Minas Tirtih was build precisely for the reason of it being a fortress. Which is why it has 7 levels. Also it is called the "Tower of the Sun" so it better be tall. The reason the trebuchets are on the wall is because on the upper levels the stones wouldn't have gotten thrown as fall.
The Hornburg: The fortress was build there because of Helms Dyke: a wall/hill/ridge type structure in the middle of the valley of Helms Deep. It was also built there because it was very difficult for an army to attack the valley. I agree with you that the crenelations are too short. Ok so the lack of towers on the wall. We see them on the Keep but not on the Deeping Wall. Well, the wall was curved in on itself (like a spoon) for that very purpose; so the archers could essentially cover any part of the wall they wished. Allen Lee (artistic designer for the movie) explains this in the "making of". Orcs are not smart enough to actually go around the keep. Goblins maybe (hence Battle of 5 Armies from Hobbit book) but not orcs. And certainly not the Uruk-Hai. That stream of waster did not provide enough water to dig a moat in front of the keep and wall.
Most of your arguments on Minas Tirith and Edoras fall flat because you don't take into account the situations these two countries are in. And your arguments on the Hornburg are mostly well founded but the idea was that the defenders could hold Helms Dyke and wouldn't need the Hornburg to defend. It was a fallback option. And like said below: these are not medieval castles in Germany or Italy. It is fiction not history and Tolkien wasn't a designer of castles.
All in all I did enjoy the video. You know more about the world than most people, and I give you that.
I also think it's funny how people talk about all old fortifications like they are the same. There are huge differences between time periods due to what they were protecting themselves from. Rome's wall is/was very different from the wall that surrounded cities in the Middle Ages which are also different from early and late castles.
Castle in Austria for example where made to stop Ottomans from advancing. They had to be huge and command valleys so that you couldn't get by them. Castles in Wales (UK) were built to subdue the populace. No one was going to invade Wales, but the English needed areas where the army could stay and where they could fall back to encase of an uprising. So if you go look at both you might think they are similar...but they are very much not.
Good response, but:
"The reason we don't see farmlands around Minas Tirith and Osgiliath is because these are port cities."
This isn't true. Minas Tirith has farmlands around it in the book - the films got this wrong.
@@_Fornad Yes but those farmlands are not made to fully sustain the population they are just last resort if there was naval blockade or something and to stock up before sige.
Awesome video, I love finding fellow medieval enthusiasts. One item of note, the reason Minas Tirith wouldn't need a gatehouse is because the gate was made virtually unbreachable to where only a battering ram created with dark magic such as "Grom" could breach it.
the battering ram is called Grond the hammer of the underworld. the battering ram is the hammer head of Morgoths (saurons master and first dark lord) Hammer
United Gamers Sorry, I didn't have my copy of "The Return of the King" on me (I'm not being sarcastic, I sometimes forget the names of things like Grond which are mentioned once.)
TheAwesomeKielbasa this isnt in "return of the king". the silmarillion adds in the extra detail
United Gamers Ahh, I haven't finished that one yet.
TheAwesomeKielbasa finish it, it really good.
Just to emphasise what others have said, the film version of Minas Tirith doesn't really do the book version justice. In the books, the capital was Osgiliath, guarded in the west by Minas Arnor (later Minas Tirith in LoTR) and in the east by Minas Ithil (later Minas Morgul on LoTR when it's been taken by Mordor). Osgiliath could be expected to have heavy defence walls as well, but we don't see them in the films, and I don't remember them from the books. These were all built when Gondor was at its height, using knowledge from Numenor later lost. For example, the outer walls of Minas Arnor were built of the virtually indestructible black 'stone', described by Tolkien as follows "hard and dark and smooth, unconquerable by steel or fire, unbreakable except by some convulsion that would rend the very earth on which it stood." The ents for example, despite being able to easily tear down the outer walls of Orthanc (built using ordinary stone), were completely unable to make any impact on the tower of Orthanc itself. The only point of weakness in these outer defences was the Great Gate of Minas Tirith, which consisted of large rolling doors made of steel and iron, set between towers and bastions of indomitable stone. Inside these outer walls there were seven concentric tiers cut on the hill culminating in the Citadel at the summit, 700 feet above the plain below, each one walled with a gate facing in a different direction (as your video recommends).
It's important to note that neither Minas Arnor nor Minas Ithil were built primarily as cities, these were fortresses, guarding the capital, Osgiliath, and the passes to Souther Gondor, (there were also further defences at Cair Andros about 50 miles to the north), and were surrounded by farmlands, and small settlements, those around Minas Arnor (Tirith) being called the Pelennor Fields. You could expect a population of Minas Tirith of around 50,000, with many more living outside the walls in the Pelennor Fields, maybe around 150,000.
Minas Tirith itself was about 20 miles east of Minas Tirith, so unlike the film, you wouldn't see it from Minas Tirith. It rather bothered me that the films didn't depict any of that, with Minas Tirith just being set down in an inhospitable moorland. I think Jackson could have done a much better job here.
Anyway, that was all the situation at the beginning of the Third Age. By the time we get to the time of LoTR, the end of the Third Age, Osgiliath has been abandoned due to war, civil war and plagues, and after the fall of Minas Ithil it became less defensible. Minas Tirith (Arnor that was) is now the capital, but it's inherited the design and fortifications from the past.
This is a problem, so what to do? What the Gondorians did was, about 200 years before LoTR, they build the outer defensive wall of the Rammas Echor, about 12 miles from the Great Gate of Minas Tirith, with gateways to the north at Forannest, the south, and east facing Osgiliath there were the Causeway Forts, fortified twin towers guarding that gate. It was around 30 miles of walls, and was still being finished when Sauron attacked, having partly been let fall into ruin. Again none of that is shown in the films. In times of war, as in the LoTR non-combatants would be evacuated to Southern Gondor, whilst the men conscripted to Gondors' army would man the defences, as is described in the book.
All in all, I think the descriptions of Minas Tirith and its defences in the book address most of the criticisms you make of the film Minas Tirith.
I’m not gonna let my love for the movie get in the way... (minutes later) ITS GORGEOUS!!