Why did the Valar take so Long to attack Morgoth? | Lord of the Rings Lore | Middle-Earth
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- Опубликовано: 1 июл 2021
- Middle-Earth would have to suffer under Morgoth's reign and tyranny for over 500 years before the Valar finally came to the aid of the Free-People, at their brink of their annihilation. What stopped Manwe and the rest of the Valar from attacking Morgoth earlier? Was it somehow for the sake of the Elves and Men or did they have some other motive in mind?
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Quotes from Morgoth's Ring (HoME volume 10):
"Manwe was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda. He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm."
"In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'. The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision. The intervention came before the annihilation of the Eldar and the Edain. Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind."
"Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwe that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it"
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Развлечения
Valar: “We’re gonna wait to avoid disrupting the Music.”
Eru: “your hesitation disrupted the Music.”
Valar: “…”
Lol 😂
You guys do know that a too long pause makes music awckward, don't you?!? Lazy bastards....
@@mariadocarmosobreira8323 you ever listened to the mii theme song with awkward pauses
Eru is in no position to talk smack. His stupidity and incompetence why this ish got out of hand in the first place
@@adrian_veidt everything that has happened is his will
"It Tulkas a long time but we got there" - Valar
It's almost like Yavanna make a game out of this.
🤣🤣🤣
Mandos not simply make a game out of Valar names.
“No matter how goth you think you are, I am always Morgoth.” -Melkor
Aule down the law and demand more of these puns.
Fascinating! I didn't know Tolkien wrote that Eru was critical of the Valar's hesistance.
"It's God... stop waiting for me to intervene, help your pupils!"
But, through their reluctance, was not Eru's will still carried out?
@@philipkeown I would say not "through" but "despite their reluctance". I understood Eru in this context as followed: "You were always going to eventually decide to fight Morgoth, therefore you could have acted earlier"
A classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. The creator of the world criticized his creations for not attacking another one of his creations whom he could have snapped out of existence in an instant.
The Lord helps those who help themselves ;)
The Valar were waiting for Tulkas to Leroy Jenkins his way after Morgoth...
"Lord God, what is a million years to you?"
"A second."
"And what is a million dollars to you?"
"A penny."
"May I have a penny?"
"In a second."
Ah, Manwe.
The guy who is king of Arda but essentially acted like king of Aman letting Melkor run amok in Endor.
What I recall from the Silmarillion is that the Valar didn't attack until all Elven dominions in Beleriand fell. I don't know if this was punishment, reminding that "without us, you're doomed" or simple waiting until conditions about certain prophecy could be fulfilled (and "Beleriandians" to be truly desperate?).
Hiw about the very fact that the time they finaly came to help was always the exact time they were suposoed to. Eru wrote it already.
Men Did Not Sin.They Were Innocent.But the ONLY VALA to Come to Men Was the Lord of The Dark and The Cold.Man wore the Chains of Terror and Despair form His Beginng.Only a Very Very Few Fled His Darkness West hoping the Light Dewlt there Still..
There was a prophecy that from Turgon of Gondolin would come the ruin of Morgoth. Said ruin was Earendil, Turgon's grandson, who went to the Valar to ask for help.
I think the answer to this is that when the Valar *did* finally come, their war was so great and terrible it literally sunk an entire continent.
It was the nuclear option
Valar: Hey Mandos, did you know that Melkor was lying about being reformed and would go back to enslaving the world?
Mandos: yes
Valar: Bruh
There was also the fact that the Noldor left Valinor against the will of the Valar. Because of that, they also hesitated to come to their aid, although Ulmo frequently asked them to do so.
That is why Earendil had to come to them pleading pardon before they started their attack
It was less the disobedience and more the mass murder that bothered them.
@@midgetydeath but the doom of Mandos tells them they need to go back and beg for pardon for rebellion and slaughtering the kin, which is for some reason not a problem for Men.
The Valar show that they see themselves as quasi lords of the Elves. Even if they wanted them to suffer in mortal lands, they still should've dealt with the great existential threats they were going to face. Instead they just said, "all of you go die for half a millenia so you learn your lesson. Total petulance.
The Valar really wanted to punish the Noldor for disobeying them and leaving Valinor. They placed the Doom on them and used Morgoth to play it out. Mandos basically tells them if you don't come back the Valar will use Morgoth to destroy you and will fence in Valinor so that even the echo of your lamentations shall not reach our ears. The Valar were responsible, they released Morgoth out of prison, he was one of them, Manwe's brother even. They were supposed to protect the children of Illuvatar.
yes the Valar dropped the ball a few times before getting it right
This is a super good video, and one not covered by other Tolkien tubers. Super original + super interesting = 10/10 video
Cheers mate, I really appreciate the kind words!
True! If you're interested, The Red Book has announced that he'll cover it too
I fully agree. It's nice to see you guys holding firm to the Middle Earth lore and the world within it. Keep up the great work!
Yeah but it was pretty clear that that Flight of The Noldor and Feanor's Oath tied the Valas hands. They needed something special to intervene(Earendil) like a plea for mercy and a big SORRY.
@@hydradominatus3641 very true! It's like they had to wait for the certain spot in the music. Almost. As it was written. The Valar didnt know the entirety of the song. Also I feel when they speak of Melkor not singing in melody and making his own version of the song, was an indication that he was part of the plan even if the Valar couldnt see it.
Class: It's a group project
Morgoth: It's a group effort
One of the quotes you mentioned stated that Eru told Manwe they should have dealt with Melkor sooner. And while everything is in Eru’s plan, the fact that Eru himself told the Valar they should have ended melkor sooner implies Eru doesn’t know when something will happen, just that it will happen. All this to say that the Valar were late in helping and the perfect time to deal with melkor had already passed.
They didn't attack because each time they fought they destroyed a portion of Arda. So they didn't want to help in the 1st age less they risk more damage. Until they had no choice. I mean you said it best in the video
I think it's wrong to say they were unable to fight and defeat him sooner. At every other stage the united Valar were able to oppose and undo the damage Melkor caused, even before Tulkas came to Arda. The thing that always seems to get lost is that the Valar, and the Maiar that came with them, were the same as Elves and Men saving only in stature and power. People asking questions like this always seem to forget that the Valar were not all seeing and all knowing and all wise. They could be prideful and wrathful and petty. The Noldor hurt them. They refused the counsel of the Valar and sought to live outside of their shelter and guidance. They refused to hand over the Silmarils, which contained essence that the Valar themselves had created and viewed as theirs, and which could have been used to undo the damage caused by Melkor and Ungoliant. Then the Noldor created horrific crimes against other clans of elves and then against some of their own clan when it became expedient to do so. I think the Valar didn't attack and end Melkor sooner because they were petulantly holding on to their gripe against the Noldor and the proclamations they had made in anger against them in the immediate aftermath of Melkor's attack on the Two Trees. I think they were acting just like Elves and Men when they suffered a severe disappointment and a perceived slight and they were holding onto that grudge until things reached such a tipping point that it shocked them out of their anger and indolence.
Great explanation.😃
The Valar are actually complicit in all of Melkor's crimes because they had the SOB locked up in Mandos and let him go. When Finwe gets reembodied, Manwe had better apologize to him.
@@Enerdhil Let's not forget that Melkor claimed reformation. The Valar mourned for Melkor's fall from grace far more than they hated what he was doing to Ëa, and hoped for him to be redeemed. They obviously felt that he should be given a chance to reform, and their compassion blinded them to the true depth of his corruption. So naturally, when he said that he had changed, their hopes were high and they seized upon the opportunity to see a truly redeemed Melkor- to their dismay and chagrin.
@@darchangel2136
100% agree. That is why you can't have "nice guys" in positions of power. They always get steamrolled by the bad guys, who take advantage of them.
Well it is not like they could have been handed the silmarils even if Fëanor had been willing, since they were stolen right after the death of the trees. To be fair, I think the valar suck ass
I've always wondered about the first assault on Morgoth's first fortress Utumno: Since the elves just arrived to the world, he could not had many converted orcs as his disposal. So what other forces did Morgoth had? Armies of evil maiar spirits disguised as proto dragons, vampires, werewolves, balrogs, phantoms and Boldog orcs?
At least Balrogs came to Morgoth's rescue when he was being tormented by Ungoliant. It took him 450+ years to build up his forces before his trial attack on the elves in The Battle of Sudden Flame, so there must not have been many other allies of Morgoth there. Unless Sauron was covering for Morgoth while he was gone.
@@Enerdhil But I'm talking about during the awakening of the Eldars timeline. The event with Ungoliant happened later.
my guess is that it was just a matter of deciding to make a move against Melkor. just a dispute between ainur.
@@Imperialistic82
Oops.
He had Many Orces.Far More Balrogs.And Many Unspecified "Spirits of Darkness."..
" No Vala Came to Men but One,The Lord of the Dark and The Cold."
Do you guys think that the Valar were right in waiting so long to attack Morgoth? Or should they have attacked earlier, and in that case what do you think would have happened? As always subtitles are available and feedback is welcome!
It was right.Decisions taken quickly may seem good but they dont work out in the long run
Since Tolkien said that the Valar should have attacked Morgoth far earlier, isn't that canon?
Its interesting that the valar have so much power and wisdom, and yet failed to understand Eru iluvitar. And that would cause countless deaths. But it took 4 of the weakest beings (in strength not mind) to defeat sauron and the witch king.
Honestly, there is no way to make the War of Wrath earlier without losing the best of Tolkien's lore, ie no Beren and Luthien, no Turin, no Tour or Earendil, etc. I believe the Valar were inept, but Iluvatar, with Ulmo's help, made a way to bring the seriousness of the Valar's negligence to their attention by guiding Earendil and Elwing to the shores of Aman and to Valinor.
When you are an immortal entity, apparently an understanding of time is a difficult concept. Foolish mortals get this, even if imperfectly, however. Thank you, Albert Einstein.
Eru:
You should've attacked earlier, and had faith that I wouldn't let your battle destroy the world.
Valar:
We had faith you wouldn't let HIM wreck the world on his own. Nice job. All part of the plan though, right Boss?
A war that could annihilated whole earth and its creature. That’s how genius Tolkien was. Also, IMHO, if only the Valar put more trust in what Eru said and confront Morgoth earlier, many of the free people lives will be saved. And maybe Beleriand no need to be sank into the sea.
Perhaps guilt and shame of the consequences of their inaction played a part in why the Valar waited so long to destroy Numenor despite its corruption. The people of Numenor were, after all, the descendants of humans in Beleriand, right?
Wow, it’s very cool to hear that! Specifically what Eru said about they shouldve acted earlier!
You appear to be overlooking the Doom of Mandos brought about after the kin slaying at Alqualondë. The pride of Feanor and the oath concerning the Silmarils and the the hubris of the Sons of Feanor. The Noldor refused to heed Mandos and return to Aman. The oath itself became a curse on the Noldor and a binding division between the Valar and the Noldor was the unhappy result. The Valar finally entered the fray against Morgoth only after the oath of Feanor had run its course with the deaths of his sons, and the half elven representative of both the Noldor and the Edain in the person of Earendil went west to Aman to crave the intervention of the Valar.
With a Silmalril as proof...
If they let the world burn to spurn Feanor, they're the worst world protectors ever
Tolkien was a literary and fictional storytelling genius, that's for sure. I would think that Valars' actions consume a lot of time because time doesn't pass for them in the same way as purely physical creatures on the plan of middle earth. It's like comparing Elves to Men. Their sense of time is dilated greatly.
A Valar is never late, nor is he early; he arrives exactly when he means to!
Tolkein: A+ for mortal characters, D- for demigods. Reminds me of greek mythology in that these are supposedly beings beyond our comprehension and yet they act EXACTLY LIKE US
Yeah, turns out it's impossible to write beings beyond us in a universe where all fate and morality is thrust upon us by a single almighty overdeity.
I think that's kinda the point, it's a mythological structure that in this respect was made to resemble other European Polytheistic mythologies. It also then took inspiration from monotheism in Eru Illuvitar. Imo it's a fantastic mixture of the two systems
I think it's a combination of hoping that mortals can beat Morgoth themselves, a very practical concern of 'can we realistically win at this time without destroying Arda completely', and a remote fear that they themselves might somehow experience death and cease to exist, or at least, be very different afterward. They were also not I think fundamentally all-knowing beings themselves, with a few exceptions, such as Manwe and Mandos, who I think possibly had a much grander view of the world than the others, but still not all knowing, only Eru Iluvatar is all knowing (source: Silmarillion).
Personally, I never had the impression that the Valar feared Morgoth and his strength. They were part of the Music at the beginning. The Music must have include Aman as a separate part of Arda. They chose the time after the Lamps were destroyed to create Aman and fortify it against an attack from Morgoth.
The Valar, except for Tulkas and Orome, were not confrontational and seemed to act only when there was no other choice. They should have taken responsibility for unleashing Morgoth into Beleriand. It was totally their fault for pardoning him. They paid the price for that ill-advised decision, with the death of the Two Trees. Once Morgoth left Aman and entered Beleriand, they should have dug him out then, when he had a tiny army. It would have been a quick affair with few man and elf casualties. Instead, they use the Doom of Mandos to effectively give men, elves, and dwarves the middle finger for 500 years.
I think there's a writing by Tolkien (sorry I can't specify it) where he states that the main reason why the Valar were reluctant to fight Morgoth was the inevitable and apocalyptic destruction this would entail. I guess this argument became obsolete once there was almost nothing left worth of protection!
I agree with you. After destroying of two lamps Valar became cowards. They hid in Valinor and forgot rest of Arda. They came to battle with Melkor just to save elves. And then when the Noldor disappointed them, they rejected Middle Earth completely (with exception of Ulmo), because Noldor live there... They never came in to Middle Earth to offer humans/dwarfs/ents or other living beings to live in Valinor - which is unfair, because elves had this choice. From Valar I like only Ulmo, because he actively interfered in Middle Earth. Without his intervention Valar never started War of wrath, because he save Elwing and the silmaril. Without silmaril Eärendil never found Aman and without Eärendil's persuasion Valar just sit and weep in Valinor for thousands of years. And after some time Melkor would return with massive army and destroy their beloved realm...
@@bedlaskybedla6361 Check that one out 😉 ruclips.net/video/ZgHjDqwOdqM/видео.html
Yeah I always felt this too, it's really inexcusable that they just let Morgoth basically take over the world. Another thing I thought was off was when they rewarded the edain with their own paradise island for fighting with them and basically punished the easterlings and the middle men by leaving them to suffer in middle earth with all of Morgoth's demons just because they refused to fight for them. They've lived under Morgoth's influence for forever, he's like a god to them, of course they're going to do what he says. You just think about how many generations of men, for thousands and thousands of years, were living miserable short brutal lives because of that decision
@@owenb8636
Well said 👏👏👏👏
Absolutely superb video! Perfectly narrated, wonderfully comprehensive and thoroughly gripping.
See I knew it wasn't possible that Eruyaq Iluvatar was okay with the Valar not interfering earlier than they did. I believed the Valar should've avenged the killing of the Two Trees, whether they assisted Feanor or not. Amazing video!
Brilliant narration and content. Thank you.
You're welcome buddy!
I really love your videos I’ve learned SO much more AWESOME stuff and can’t wait for more!!😃
What a fascinating topic of discussion, thank you!
Super nice video! Subscribed! I always wondered whether the Valar didn't feel differently about time. 500 years may seem long to humans, but for immortal beings this period of time is insignificant. Still, the question remains why the Valar allowed so much misery and death before they intervened. And you examined this question very nicely.
The way you pronounce "Valar" troubles me BUT at the same time...I love the pronunciation. I am in an internal conflict just like the "Vala-ar"
Yeah it confuddles me too :D
This is why English needs diacritical marks. As a speaker of Romance languages, this lack drives me up a wall.
The V'lar
Nerd of the Rings...nice job with this. A couple of thoughts for you and your (our) fans out there for the Tolkien Legendaruim, I call the Legendaires. The foundation of this genre. Eru was right to chastise the Vala for their fear and inaction, showing to us all, and the races of Middle-earth why they were not the God-head- Eru. However, the design of what he made and the song that made it all, might not have been shown to be all-powerful had not the trials and tribulations been shown, and thus proved, as consequences for inaction against the Enemy- in all its forms in that world and this. Therefore, the lesson taught, was the lesson required. The valiant champions for good and righteousness are the only defense against the onslaught of Evil, as it always will be. So, in the end, Eru's plan was that the lessons were learned, in their own time and in their own way, that they might be learned and never forgotten. By this lesson, a way forward was found... By design. ~The Lore-Master
nerd of the rings?
@@howdareyouexist yeah you never heard of them?
This is what happens when everyone knows how a person is, and everyone knows they did it, but justice completely fails to hold them accountable.
Catch and release at its finest. Happens all the time in the real world, sadly. Also why i truly hate comic book super heroes whos "dont kill the bad guy" policy causes untold suffering when the bad guys inevitably escape. That whole "we have to be the better person" thing is horseshit. Your job is to protect people. That means ending threats to those people. That is how you are the better person.
@@custink22 This is a very overly simplistic take. Comic book superheroes are not judges or executioners, nor should they be. If it is anyone's failure, it is of the systems in place and not of the heroes themselves that the threat of a supervillain is not ended.
But then again, why not go around just blasting and killing whomever one deems to be guilty? I'm sure that wouldn't have any negative repercussions or stigmas associated with it. After all, it's not like legions of people are constantly railing against American police forces on a daily basis whenever a suspect is killed- justified or not.
@@Tracker947 if a mass murder escapes prison several dozen times and racks up a quadruple digit body count maybe leaving them alive is a bad idea? Sure, lock up a being that is so overpowered only the equivalent of demigods could stand against them, I’m sure Gus the guard can handle that guy.
wow just wow, amazing coverage
I think based on what you said about the damage Morgoth could've caused if he felt too overwhelmed that the Valar's strategic timing of their attack on Morgoth in the War of Wrath was pretty well-done when you consider that the total destruction was limited to the north of Middle-Earth instead of much more of the continent being devastated. I think if they attacked earlier, there would've been more extensive damage done to Middle-Earth by Morgoth and more of the Free Peoples would've died and struggled to repopulate, and some non-evil magical races might've been outright wiped out or never come to be.
40yrs of Cataclysmic War.Half of Creation.Shattered and Drowned.Uncounted Casulties. 6000+ Yrs Later The Maia Orlorein and a Valaruko take off Their Physical Forms and Battle for a Month as Elemental Energy .Flame and Lighting, Earthquakes,Lava. Eastern Moria Slagged.The Moutain Top DESTROYED.
Interesting theory. Yet I think you neglect important events that might challenge your conclusions.
Don't forget that the Valar prepared to pursue Morgoth to Middle Earth right after the Darkening of Valinor. Yet the rash deeds of the Noldor, Feanor's terrible oath, the kinslaying of Alqualonde, concluding in the Doom of Mandos, prevented them from attacking right away. Supporting the cause of the Noldor and thereby aiding in the immediate destruction of Morgoth (which might not have been too hard for them right after his escape) was just out of the question for the Valar, as long as Feanor and his sons were bound by their oath and as long as the Noldor wouldn't return to Valinor to repent.
In the end the Valar were swayed by pity for the free people of Middle Earth and the realisation, that the Noldor had suffered enough - as was made plain to them by Earendil's plea.
The very late attack of the Valar, the War of Wrath, has always bugged me, too. But it was the hubris of the Noldor and the resulting judgement by the Valar (the Doom of Mandos), that prevented an earlier intervention from Valinor.
This is how I view the story at least and I think you shouldn't omit such important events when you concoct a theory about the motivations of the Valar.
Entertaining video, nonetheless :)
Men did Not Sin.They Were Innocent.But the ONLY Vala to come to Men was the Lord of the Dark and The Cold.Men wore the Chains of Terror and Despair form the Beginning.Only a Very Few Fled West.Encountering the Sylvan Elves in the Woods They Learned Much of Them and Still Fled West seeking the Light and so Met Finrod and Took Him As Their Lord.
And apparently dwarves, ents, men and the non noldorin elves did deserve to suffer due to the Noldor, eh?
If the Valar are good, then they are little different from Melkor, who is their brother after all.
It seems that the apples didn't fall far from the tree.
@@durshurrikun150 No doubt the full purpose of the valar will always be kind of unfathomable for us mere men. No matter how you view or interpret their deeds, there always seems to be a huge amount of avoidable collateral damage. Take also the downfall of Numenor as an example: That situation could have been easily de-fused by removing Sauron and showing the Numenorians who is boss. Instead they knowingly let things get out of control and then drown the entire country in their wrath.
On the other hand, we'd have much less entertaining stories to read, had things gone more smooth.... ;)
@@weinmalig7462 Ah yes, the "god acts in unexplainable way" pathethic excuse to justify evil( and explain away arguments that challenge the dogmas of certain religions), i haven't heard that one before.
Or they could have regularily visited Numenor to maintain the faith and ensure evil would never take root there.
Or they could have done the same back when men first awakened as they did to the elves.
The Valar also ignored all the men of Harad and Romen( clearly the valar were western chauvinists). Did they not deserve the enlightmenent of the Valar, their wisdom and skills?
That last claim is absolutely true.
@@durshurrikun150 as i said in another reply chain. IMHO the Valar became lazy, complaisant, and Arrogant after defeating Melkor and refused to do their jobs of teaching and guiding men like they did the Elves. when you Add in that Eru adopted the Dwarfs and Ents it could be argued that the Valar also had an obligation to teach and guide them as well but again did nothing falling into apathy for all but the Elves that dwell in Valinor
Doriath wasn’t destroyed by Melkor/Morgoth, nor by his forces. The first sacking of Doriath occurred at the hands of the Dwarves of Nogrod, and the second sacking occurred at the hands of the Sons of Feanor (Noldor Elves).
I've been grinding Tolkien legendarium youtube videos for a few years now, and in many hundreds of them, I really think that this is the best one I've seen.
Amazing script, rithm, story telling, artwork and above all, the crackdown of important view points in the overviewed story of the war between Morgoth and the other Valar.
🌟
I was thinking of you that you would make videos about the first age i was hoping for it ... then here it is! thanks! also make video's about utumno and angband,fall of gondolin,Nirnaeth Arnoediad,dustruction of the 2 lamps etc etc if of course you have time! :):)
I should have a video on Numenor out soon :)
Why didnt Iluvatar interfere? Also If Iluvatar Knew everything, why did he create Melkor?
I think that Valar have been waiting so long because peoples of Middlearth had to prove that they were worthy of their help and that with all suffering and sacrifices they have seen and endured, they deserved the help of the Valar.
Like I said before Im new to the channel I really like your content. Just go forward!!!!!
Cheers mate!! 😁
Kinda messed up with such odds and evil magic against them all at the fault of the Valar not checking thier own in the first place.
@@His_Name_Was_King The Beleriandians caused all their own problems.
Feanor burning the ships and delaying Fingolfin. Thingol’s paranoia and isolationism, and later his coveting of the Silmarils. The disastrous oath of Feanor and the mistakes his sons made. Etc etc.
If they would have banded together from the beginning, they would have crushed Morgoth. But nope. The constant infighting and distrust between the Elves in Beleriand directly allowed Morgoth to survive, build up his forces, and crush them in back to back battles.
Keep in mind that if at any one point, say, Fingolfin or Fingon kill Morgoth and retrieve the Silmarils…there would have been another war immediately after caused by Feanor’s sons or Thingol or the dwarves or Edain or all of the above.
Beleriand caused its own problems.
@@holymolythejabroni9040 Morgoth didnt come from the elves. He should have been dealt with from the beggining.
@@His_Name_Was_King I dont think that's his point. Eru could have deleted Morgoth but did not. This leads me to believe that Eru saw the song play out and knew that he and his would triumph. He was essentially the worst aspects of human, elves and dwarven tendencies. The free people lose alot due to corruption, greed, pride and distrust, they needed to overcome this first.
Amazing video as always..
Wow! Here’s to hours of more listening material. Just subscribed
Excellent narration.
My god, the deep lore in these videos. I'll probably comment something similar on most, but hell of a good job incorporating information from the HoME series! Proper research here!
Excellent analysis
The real reason they wait so long was that they didnt understand the concept of evil. Sometime you have to use evil to defend what you love.
Great video!
Cheers Bjorn!
only one mistake: it has been said that melkor was the only valar that felt fear. so they were`nt scared of him.
and 0that was an awesome video! thank you!
If the Valar would have attacked earlier, tens of thousands of lives would have been spared. However, Tolkien's Three Epic Tales would disappear. Just take a look at the events of the First Age. The most important are clustered at the beginning and the end. Beren, Turin, Tuor, Dior, Elwing, Earendil, etc are all BORN in Beleriand, which will sink after the War of Wrath at any time. Their existence either gets wiped out or the entire history of Eriador has to change. Also, would there even be a Numenor in that scenario?
Well, they are only fantasy, made up stories, so what we know of The Silmarillion and TLOTR, etc., would simply have been replaced by another amazing Tolkien fantasy and those books we know now, would simply have never entered our minds and would have been replaced by other stories we would now be talking about as if The Sil., TLOTR, etc., would have never existed. It's really basic and simple. And, the elves were as prominent in everything in the first age, not just men and peredhils, as you said, regardless of Tolkiens created fantasy.
@@markuse3472
I am sorry, but Beren and Luthien, Turin Turumbar, and the Fall of Gondolin are three of the best stories in Tolkien's Legendarium. I don't think you want to lose that treasure, do you? If he could have created better stories, I'm sure he would have. He spent his whole life making those stories and others.
@@Enerdhil I would not say spared. More so like a total annihilation. If they had attacked earlier, Arda would have been ruined, because Melkor was far too powerful. They had to wait for him to scatter his essence into the earth and him becoming too weak to contest with them, like he did in the beginning.
@@Greendalewitch
Excellent point. The two quintessential evil characters of Tolkien's world weakened themselves by scattering "their essence into the earth," thus making it possible to defeat them.
@@Enerdhil Well in Saurons case, yes. But in Morgoths, not. Saurons power was condenced into a small ring which could be easily destroyed, while Morgoth had scattered his essence into the very earth itself, making Middle Earth, as the title would suggest, Morgoths Ring. In other words, in order to destroy Morgoth once and for all, you will have to destroy Middle Earth itself. Morgoth, though disembodied and currently in the void, is gathering strength and healing himself. And one day, he will return and instigate Dagor Dagorath.
But there is one thing i wanted to bring up, and that is the nature of the Valar. problem with this, and it is on the nature of the Valar. You see, The Valar preach about good arising from evil, and that is the nature of the world, yet they themselves are removed from said evil. They live in Aman, a paradise on earth where no shadow exists. There is no pain, and no illness. Its hypocritical to preach about how good rises from evil when they do not experience it for themselves. Their ignorance was so astounding they did not understand why men chose to invade Valinor. Sauron sped the proccess up, but men were already starting to be angry at the Valar. Some of it was unjustified since death is not a bad thing in Lotr, but in others cases it was not. Its not fair for people to preach about good rising out of evil when they themselves are removed from said evil, illness and all sorts of pain.
Im sorry if this seems a bit random. The nature of the Valar is something ive been thinking a lot about.
Very cool Video - enjoyed it a lot and left a subscription.
I do still wonder, though, what might have happened if the Valar had left the Elves in Middle Earth after Melkor's defeat.
Fantastic video.
Tolkien was very specific on pronunciation so it was weird hearing the words Valar and Orome said in this manner.
So it can be summed up as being overly cautious both in what Eru intended and how damaging a war with Morgoth could be
I'm really glad you made this because I love the silmarillion
Very good Analysis!
Thanks Curtis!
Great episode.
The thumbnail made me think that this video was going to list of the Valar’s signature attacks like they were a bunch of anime characters.
I think one of the simplest explanations and i think the best one, is that the valar and even the miar are just not human in the way that they think and act. They just show inhuman ways of acting and thinking. To me this explanation honestly makes the story cooler, places are much bigger responsibility on the men and elves who may be able to act more rationally but also act with less power.
Great video 🙂
So in attempting to not break from the grand plan the Valar did break from the plan? Guess this was the first of many lessons for the Valar building up to the books on what and what not to do
Millions of lives and unimaginable suffering would have been spared had the Valor not waited so long.
Amazing video as always bro! What is The Background song did you have 👍 PS sorry for My bad english
Why valars didn't came forward to capture sauron? So that we can have a story?
When you think The Lord of the Rings was a master piece but in reality its just the tip of the iceberg!
An interesting topic. Some thoughts:
1- the way the video is constructed and concluded makes me think that teh Valar were driven by fear, the worst possible motivation. The fear that their creation could be undone, that the elves and men would suffer or even could not come to exist. The valar are not gods, they feel like we do, and fear is a very understandable emotion to most of us.
2- some problems. how was the communication between Eru and the valar? was there any? if not, how can we blame the valar for bad decisions? the same thing as real religion/gods. if we have to use our minds and free wills, if god allows evil to happen, isnt god, the only all powerfull and truly wise, the ultimate responsible?
3- Time is relative. Do the valar comprehend elves and men? how long was the first age, some 2000 years? that is a blink in the eyes of immortal beings. did it feel like a long time to them?
4- the way the stories are told, we place elves/men on the center of things, but do the valar see the as such? after all, their creation and plan is much, much bigger than either race. even if they think about us and what morgoth doings, how often did it happen? they have all the world/universe to manage, why would they focus solely or even mainly on belerian?
5- has i said before, i dislike Tulkas. the idea of a warrior valar fits the nordic influences of the story but not it´s christian side and in my perspective it conflicts somewhat with the the way the BIG story ends(with LoTR) where everyone, even the smaller hobbit must do his/her part. the idea that the valar waited for Tulkas makes sense, as you need warriors to make war, but it bothers me a lot.
6- ultimately we dont understand things bigger than us. we call the valar powerfull and wise but it is hard to say why and how. we do not know them and even to the elves that have never been to the West they are more religion/belief that known things.
to your second point, ultimately it's about choice. good must be chosen freely over evil, or else it wouldn't be good, it'd just be the way of things, nature. as much as it pains me to say, a dog can ultimately not be good, for it doesn't know evil and is perpetually innocent. the good boy is a lie. a good man can be good because people can choose to be evil but choose good instead.
if eru takes away the choice, elves and men wouldn't exist, the whole experiment of arda would be a wash.
the thing with a lot of religious interpretations somehow lead to an abdication of responsibility. oh god will make it right, in this life or the next. when a lot of the time, the higher power is often asking for you to own up to your decisions. to take responsibility.
just to pull a subject outta my ass for comparison- let's go with abortion. personally i'd avoid putting myself and a partner in a situation where we'd require an abortion. how do i do this? by wrappin' before tappin', not having horizontal dances, or staying single.
what i wouldn't do is scream outside abortion clinics because that's a horrible thing to do. see? personal responsibility.
eru gives free will so that elves, men, dwarves, valar and what have you would choose good instead of evil- and for you to be able to choose good, evil must be an option or it's not a choice you're making.
@@feifiefofum1 and who defines good and evil?
@@goncaloferreira6429 there are so many definitions and so many interpretations. ask any religion and they'll not only give you one, but at least 20.
personally, i go with harm reduction- which is unfortunately rhymes a lot with the catholicism. we exist, and unfortunately existing alone causes harm whether we like it or not. we need to eat, we need to carve a place for ourselves in the world, etc etc, that causes unforseen misfortune to others, you get the job instead of another possibly more needy, more deserving other, and on and on. so you try to minimize the harm you do to others, act with the intention to do your neighbor the least amount of harm and malice.
in the grand scheme of things, you have precarious control over outcome, and you have total control over your intentions. so take control of that. however, this does not absolve you just because you have 'good' intentions.
let us look again at, to pull a topic out of the ol' a-hole, abortion!!!
now technically, the anti-abortionists are technically on my side. i'm not fond of aborting any potential offspring i might've 'sewn', but i'm also aware of rape, medical complications where a fetus proves to be non-viable, and just bad luck with that 1% failure of birth control/condoms of all stripes. shit happens, so i'm not in favor of abolishing abortions, since america's healthcare is laughable and the mortality rate of childbirth is, omg not zero, dangerous and traumatizing in so many ways, and that carrying a child to term is traumatizing as well and severely hampering towards an individuals lifestyle in so many ways. so yeah, i look at intentions of the anti-abortion movement and the outcome of said movement being a lot of sketchy abortion clinics that are not up to code and i conclude that hey, not interested.
that and i find the religious hypocrisy of its backing hilarious in a terrible, terrible way. so, not in favor.
so good and evil depends on the outcome of your actions and decisions and the intent behind it. so if you have good intent and a generally good outcome, congrats, ya did good. if you have evil intent, but a good outcome, or vice versa, it depends but mostly frowny face. evil intent, evil outcome obvious conclusion.
but good and evil is difficult to define. let's go again to my usual go to for examples abortions! a lot of people would say, hey, this should be a no-brainer, killing someone that did nothin' should be a no-brainer as explicitly evil. and usually i agree. but we've got too many examples of mommies dying in childbirth with dad's becoming terrible and blamin' and abusin' the kid stories to just, y'know, ignore this conundrum. so, just becos anti-abortion types love to speculate on aborted fetuses growing up to develop the cure for cancer, what would you advise future parents if you could look into the future and discover that they'd abuse that kid they'd have? would you push for them to abort? would that be good? outcome vs intent.
there's philosophy classes in colleges that dig into more stuff like this, but, uh, good luck. hopefully, my bare bones rickety framework is somethin' to start on.
@@goncaloferreira6429 Why do you ask? Are you literally just wanting to know 'who'? Or would you like to declare yourself a superior judge in defining them?
Very interesting topic :)
Cheers mate!
I would have much liked more detail in the battle formations seeing not only the armaments and numbers of those participating in these wars but also knowing of their plans and hearing of how communication errors caused losses of battles and stuff like that
This is slightly touched upon when it states things like who has the high ground and what not but not in nearly enough detail
I love just seeing thousands of soldiers on the battle field! So yes I agree with you!
I'll surely include those details when covering some of the battles of Arda :)
@@GeekZoneMT yes you did however the battles aren't nearly complex as real battles and also lacks the manoverments of the armies beyond how they fled the battle such as the dwarves at the battle of Moria in real world history it is this planning they makes or breaks nations well that and supply lines
I love your username and avatar 👌🏿
@@Crafty_Spirit much appreciated
Eru said he had power over all things, that Melkor's discord was part of his plan, then he faults his first creations for respecting that? Again, why do theists call a deity like that moral?
No he didn’t fault them he is saying you could have acted sooner, it’s not a criticism as it was a fact if they did act sooner Morgoth could have been taken by then
What music is playing at around 4:22? What soundtrack?
I love the picture at 7:53 !
7:30 - "Now Manwe was the King of all the Valar, as the wisest being in all of Arda..."
Me: Uhm, he's the one who let Morgoth out of jail. Not so wise after all.
The Valar didn't step "foot" in Middle-Earth during The War of Wrath. There Army was lead by Eonwe, a Maiar and Herald of Manwe. It really grinds my gears when even well meaning Tolkien channels push that false narrative
No they did. Stop spreading the fan fiction here. Tolkien says *"Sauron dismayed by the wrath of the Lords of the West"* in the war of wrath. It proves Valars existence in the war. "Lords of the West" is another name for the Valar. Eonwe or the Valinorean Elven kings never been described as ''Lords of the West" by Tolkien himself.
"[...]And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, *being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West.* But it was not within the power of Eonwe to pardon those of his order. And he commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there receive the Judgement of Manwe. Then Sauron ashamed and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valar a sentence, it might be, of long servitude in proof of his good faith, for under Morgoth his power had been great, therefore when Eonwe departed he his himself in Middle Earth, and he fell back into the evil, for the bonds of Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong."
[The Silmarillion - Of the Rings Of Power and The Third Age]
P.s Eonwe, other Maiar or any other Elven power cannot cause the entire continent to sunk into the sea.
Lords of The West. LORD IS A VERY VAGUE TERM. Ingwe is a "Lord".. Finarfin is a "Lord". Eonwe is a "Lord". Pretty much everybody is Valinor is a "Lord".
@@_semih_ Eonwe was in Charge of the Forces he was among other Maia as well and yes they have the power to wreck a Continent when in full power. If even a SINGLE VALA was in the War it would have been over in 2 seconds. Do you think Tulkas would have had a problem against anything a weakened Morgoth could throw at him?
@@hydradominatus3641 "Lords of the west" is not a very vague term, its a name for the Valar only.
"Therefore by Elves and Men
he is called Eärendil the Blessed, for he achieved his quest after long labours and many perils, *and from Valinor there came the host of the Lords of the West."*
(Silmarillion, Akallabeth)
"But Elwing answered: ‘Then would our paths be sundered for ever; but all thy
perils I will take on myself also.’ And she leaped into the white foam and ran
towards him; but Eärendil was sorrowful, for *he feared the anger of the Lords of
the West* upon any of Middle-earth that should dare to pass the leaguer of Aman.
And there they bade farewell to the companions of their voyage, and were taken
from them for ever.
(Silmarillion)
"[...]Then men grew afraid. ‘Behold *the Eagles of the Lords of the West!’ they
cried. ‘The Eagles of Manwë are come upon Númenor!’* And they fell upon their
faces."
(Silmarillion, Akallabeth)
"But Manwë put forth Morgoth and shut him beyond the World in the Void that
is without; and he cannot himself return again into the World, present and
visible, *while the Lords of the West are still enthroned."*
(Silmarillion, Akallabeth)
Lords of the West= Valar.
I can show you too many references that is showing Tolkien used that term/title for only the Valar in his story. If you want I can send you more paragraphs
@@hydradominatus3641 Tolkien scholars says that the Valar joined to the war when Morgoth sent all his forces (including dragons) and managed to push the host of Valinor back. Remember, before that as the book said: the host of the west were "retreating". If the power of the (good) Maiar was enough to defeat Morgoth's forces why they got pushed back then? lol It was Valar who destroyed the enemy and sank the continent.
Earendil and Thorondor defeated Anchalagon the black, then Valar came and helped their host to destroy the army of the evil. ( they chained Morgoth tho)
So Tulkus aka Mr. Badass chased him off at one of his strongest points but never showed up when he appeared even weaker. And Eru causing all of the issues in the first place with the ability to resolve the issue entirely in an instant instead blames his kids. TWO USELESS OPS CHECK
The Valar raised the sun and moon with the remnants of the trees to directly limit Morgoths spread which lead to the long siege of 400 plus years which gave the Noldor time to build their realms in Beleriend ,they couldn't help directly until Earaindil the representative of the kindreds could sue for pardon from the Valar and Eru
The moral is never ever let evil of that nature endure.
love this
I think you're forgetting that the Valar had to let Feanor's Oath work its way out too. His sons were warned by Mandos that they could never never defeat Morgoth, and all their plotting to bring all the Elven kingdoms under their rule before attacking finally led to compete destruction. Defeating Morgoth would have been useless if Feanor's sons then turned to fight the Valar over possession of the Silmarils. Feanor has a lot to answer for. No wonder he hasn't taken a body again, I don't think he'd have a very friendly welcome from all the elves that died because of his pride and obsession.
The Vala left the Second Children to Be Enslaved By Morgoths TERROR.They Did Not Sin.They Were Innocent.Only the Very Few.Unaided Fled West .Seeking the Light
Meh. Feanor has a lot to answer for? How about Manwe who let Morgoth make a mess in Valinor, no less? He let him kill Finwe, steal the Silmarils and even destroy the Two Trees and get away with it? If he and other Valar took action there and then, Feanor wouldn't have had to take any oaths to avenge his father and take back the Silmarils. After all, he didn't force anyone to come with him. Noldor people had free will to decide what to do and they decided to follow him to Middle Earth.
Why did they have to let the doom of Mandos and Feanor's Oath work it's way out? Seems like a cop oit on their part
"Ooh, we were gonna fight Morgoth, the planet wrecking force we let loose and then let divide and manipulate you and then kill your king and steal some of your kin and torture them into monsters but you swore that oath so...our hands are tied 🤷
Tulkas just had to get a good workout in for the right pump to turn Morgoth into a mogged goth.
cool vid Robert
Eru may have been critical of their choice to wait an may have said that he wouldnt allow Morgoth to stop Elves & Men from awakening, but he did ALLOW the Valar to believe that waiting was the best course of action.
The one issue with all powerful deities saying they won't allow evil to win, is that they tend to contradict themselves by allowing evil to exist.
The question that needs to be asked is "Why did Eru allow Morgoth to enter Arda in an attempt to disrupt it?" Doesn't matter that Morgoth couldn't win, what does matter is that Eru allowed Morgoth to believe he could win. And more importantly, why allow your children to believe that the monster in the darkness could win against them?
Eru seems just as sadistic and twisted as another "omnipotent" creator guy I've heard of before
I have to say the more you think about it, the more I think the disgruntled men of numeneor had a point. The Valar went to war with Morgoth for the sake of the elves and made a garden of Eden for them as a haven. The elves having brought war to middle earth and rebelled against the Valar are rescued again by the Valar and once again allowed to join the haven. Men awaken and are left to defend themselves from the malice and shadow. Men rebel and have their haven taken away from them. Men battle again one of the Valar’s lose ends Sauron and win, but Sauron survives, the elves are allowed to run away. Men are left to defeat Sauron by themselves and clean up the Valar’s mess for them. Elves are gifted great wisdom and immortality, men are gifted sickness, frailty, old age and death. It is said the Valar love the elves most, and it definitely shows, Eru is meant to love men most, but it definitely doe not show. I think humans got shafted in the great music.
Great topic. Who among the Valar kept the situation of Middle earth in their minds at their councils? It was Ulmo, of course. Tolkien wrote that Ulmo was always the most concerned with the plight of the people there. I always imagine Ulmo sitting in on a Valar meeting...."Ulmo, anything from you." "Well, if you ask...I'm wondering....we've got this situation over the sea...and yeah, I GET that the Ban of the Noldor is official policy. But...just saying. Father's second born children have arisen and you know, THEY had nothing to do with the Noldor's rebellion. And those kids Aule made...well, Father gave them life too. They are ALL under threat. And I'm just wondering if we're gonna sit here forever enjoying stars and plants and what not and do nothing about He who shall Not be Named just lording over everyone and everything over there. They ARE losing. They're falling under his dominion while we...sit and debate. I guess my question is...what are we waiting for?" I'm not sure I agree with the claim of "precision" in the Valar's counter stroke. They only acted when Earendil arrived and plead for their intervention. What if he had failed, even with the Silmaril on the bow of his ship? What if he had been forced to turn back? That's not how it played out but still. The power of fate? Fate led Beren through the Girdle of Melian to find Luthien...and that led to Earendil's journey west. Hell I don't know. But then again..these little speculations are part of what make Tolkien's stories so damned enjoyable and addictive!
Melkor "im the most powerful"
Tulkas : " my fists go brrrrr"
It wasnt just Morgoth, but the valar themselves that spent their power trying to heal and keep everything together.
Perhaps they were waiting for Earendil to come and ask for forgiveness and help. But of course many Elves had done nothing wrong since they never went to Aman. And that goes for the race of Men as well. So the Valar were pretty unforgiving for a time.
The rest of middle earth was also damaged greatly, not just Beleriand sank, but parts of Eriador, parts of what would become Gondor and parts of Harad at least.
It's simple, the valar were either incompent or complicit with Melkor their brother.
I ask, why should men trust the valar, since the valar never cared about them and were indifferent towards them?
The valar never showed up to enlighten men and help them and to dispell what Melkor did to them.
Why should men respect spirits who ignored them and didn't help them?
Men shouldn't, it's as simple as that.
The valar ignored and despised men and men should do so to them.
However that doesn't mean siding with Melkor or his servants, since they also despised men( although they feigned respect, which is more that can be said about the valar his brothers), it means that men should be indipendent and create their own path in the world.
01:03, am I wrong or would it not be incorrect to call Melkor Morgoth at this time?
He wouldn’t be named Morgoth for thousands of years.
The line about the Noldor being the perfect instruments to grind down Morgoth makes me dislike the Valar even more. It makes it seem that the Valar just used them as sacrificial lambs. You could make an argument they were ultimately glad the Noldor "rebelled" because it gave them a weapon to use on Morgoth. I doubt the War or Wrath would've been near as destructive without the 500+ years Morgoth had to build up his forces.
The Noldor "rebellion" was a win- win for them: take out their rage on Feanor and let someone else fight Morgoth and wear him down so they could finish him off.
Thanks
Why did the Valar take so long to attack Morgoth?
Eru Illuvatar - "They f****d up!"
is that wow soundtrack on the background ?
I say Val-ar. You say Va-lar. The stressing of the second syllable sounds so strange.
Hopefully there will be movies of this origin of stories.
“They got an e-mail about it, but it ended up in their SPAM folder…”