Why Was The ONE RING Not Sent To The UNDYING LANDS? (Valinor!) | Middle-Earth Lore
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- Опубликовано: 16 май 2024
- Why was the one ring not sent away to Valinor to be dealt with? 🤔
We answer that for you today! 🔥
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I hope you’re all doing great today! Why not share with me your favourite theories from Tolkiens world for some fun 😁
What if All the elves of middel Earth went West in the years of the trees
What if All the elves of middel Earth went West valinor after the first Age war of wrath
the Dark LORDS
The Dark Lords
Here's a question for you to cover: Would the One Ring have worked on a Valar? I mean, would it have corrupted them and would it have amplified their power (if only by a little)?
What if Tom Bombadill took the one ring?
It’s worth clarifying - Isildur refusing to destroy the ring within Mt Doom “on the bridge” was a plot device for the movie and very different to Tolkien’s writing. Isildur was not really corrupted by the One Ring, but it was gnawing at his mind, and he came to understand that he could never master it.
Also, Elrond's quip about "the strength of Men" having failed is also a plot device for the movie alone. It was also not very well thought out by Jackson and Walsh because it made Elrond a hypocrite: if Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel were afraid to even touch the Ring for fear of it corrupting them, why the hell was he so harsh with Isildur and Men in general?
@@mikeroman5208 Why didn't he just kill Isildur right there and toss it in himself? Maybe the ring was affecting him as well........and he didn't want to do what needed to be done.
@@MrBottlecapBill Elrond did not have the opportunity they never entered the cracks of doom. Isildur simply claimed the ring as war prize from Saurons corpse after Elendil and Gilgalad died killing him. They left Mordor then and Isildur held the ring for many years unable to master it yet it could never master him. The trip he was taking at the beginning of LOTR was actually him going to imladris for a sort of proto council of Elrond. The reason the ring abandoned him in the river was that the ring realised it could not control him so it took the chance of lying in a river for a few millennia. Evidence of the rings lack of control is that as Isildurs brother had died in the war to destroy Sauron he could have claimed kingship of the entire middle earth that our map focuses on (as Aragorn did) but isildur instead set up the kingdom of Gondor anarion and took the throne of arnor only (though the high king was technically an overlord of both). He was under no obligation to share power like this and it isn’t the actions we see of slaves to the ring.
Dramatic effect and double purpose in showing just how quickly and utterly it's corruptive powers are. A book uses words for anything so it doesn't change much but for a film they had in my opinion like three options, either show him cowering in a corner of his chambers in darkness, clutching it alone by the hearth during a great feast and becoming very defensive over it or what was in the film. Any could work but showing exactly what would await Frodo and Sam at the end works better in my opinion.
Different mediums sometimes require different ways of portraying things, it's a change to be sure but a respectful one with clear thought behind it and not just thinking that they could do it better, still it's good to be aware of the original intention.
I did not know that thank you very much!!! Seriously that's an important fact that I did not know because I've never read the books.
The Dark Lords must be discussed!
THE DARK LORDS
Don't do it! The Darklords are (expletive of choice) willing to sell anything for attention.
Do not reward bad behavior!
😁
@@alanvatcher8374 love this comment. How to parent your Dark Lord. 👍
I have one huge issue with the Valar. They did a lot for the Elves but abandoned Men. Elves got their help with their great journey, came to ME to beat and capture Melkor, offered them the paradise to live in, teached them, protect them and what about Men? Men were not looked after from the beggining. Traveled to Baleriand on their own, were left to for Melkor to corrut them, probably making their life shorter.
My point - the Elves were loved and carred after and Men were left to be doomed and the 3 houses of the Edain, the middle men, had to fight for survival a lot harder than the Elves. That always makes me feel bad about the Valar. The only adventage Man had over the Elves was the time to get into high numbers. The Elves got all the best from the Valar being a lot stronger race than Men.
I would like to see a video comparing Melkor and Sauron as much as a video about the Valar leaving men alone to their doom
teached
Hm... Makes you wonder if the reason why the Valar showed more compassion to Elves was due to the fact that they were eventually fade along with the rest of the magical world except Humans.
Like the highest points for Humans was the end of Sauron, they have nothing else to contend with them outside of the end times.
However the high point of the Elves was at the start of their creation, then along came Morgoth and basically the road was downhill since then. Some elven lines would be forever corrupted and denied their birthright and be forced to slay their bretheren.
Not sure if the humans suffered war longer though, given that many elves likely witnessed both Morgoth's and Sauron's treachery/corruption, living for eternity sure doesn't have its benefits in war... and they have to live with the results of it for eternity as well.
Ulmo warned the Valar against helping directly the Elves though. He would have stopped at capturing Melkor, and leaving the Elves fend for themselves in Middle Earth. And he was proven right in the end, since the War of the Jewels would have never occurred if the Elves remained in Middle Earth. I believe the Valar got wiser at the end of the First Age.
I believe since the elves are so intrinsically tied to the very fabric of Arda, and men being called outside creation to Eru Iluvatar, the Valar feel or rather felt that the elves need all that they could get. The elves die from the moment they are brought into existence alongside the rest of the world, while mankind resides here I the world for a short time before departing towards something unknown and outside witnessed creation. At that, the Valar feel closer to the elves and indeed, the Valar are basically infinitely stronger Maiar, which are basically the spiritual version of the elves, just as the elves are so tied to the world. To the elves and the ainur, men's fate is unknowable and worthy of envy.
Men get to be with eru after death, no need for the undying lands. Elves however are tied to the world
Also: the last time the Valar directly intervened, they sank half a continent.
Precisely
Eru tho?
It's not like all of them had to come over. Wouldn't Tulkas or Orome be enough?
Sauron's biggest mistake was underestimating Eru Illuvitar's love for its creation
That wasn't a mistake, it was what Eru wanted him to do.
I think the big problem here is that the Valar aren't just legend; they do, and still exist. In some respects, I'd say they serve no purpose, as they will let things go regardless. I feel this is why, in other tales, the old mentor character often goes and dies, so that they aren't compelled to either cheat, and deal with the problem personally, or resist, and seem aloof, and cruel. The Valar, by still being there, seem indifferent and uncaring, despite being somewhat responsible for all of this, in the first place. As for Elrond, "it falls to us who still dwell here to deal with it"...says the elf who plans to sail away, even if Sauron won, because the elves get a get out of jail free card.
As for sailing over the sea with the Ring, while I don't want to just downplay Sauron's power, he actually does a pretty good job of showing us he doesn't have a clue where his Ring is, most of the time. Gollum wore it off and on for centuries, and effectively in Sauron's temporary backyard, and the Necromancer didn't even feel it, he was so weak. We know Bilbo used it, occasionally, yet Sauron remains unaware, and still doesn't know where the Shire is. Once Frodo and Sam sneak away, he thinks Pippin and Aragorn have it, and can't even tell it is in his real backyard until it's too late. Meanwhile, elves he hates are sailing across the sea all the time, and he doesn't interfere. The Elven Rings could be going beyond his reach, and he still sits in Mordor, blissfully ignorant. I'm not sure hid spies would be up for the challenge, even if I do believe he could summon up sea monsters, and worse.
I don't want to just sit here, an bitch; of course a lot of it is simply "we wouldn't have a story if they could do this", or if Tulkas just strode into Mordor, and drug a weakened Sauron back to Aman, for judgment. It's a wonderful story, andvim usually glad it goes the way it did, but I am willing to poke at these things, like good stories of any author.
The Valar are unable to act as they do not fully understand the plans of Eru Illuvatar, especially where it pertains to the free will of his Children-Elves & Men. Also, action by the Valar tend to lead to the alteration of whole continents, so I can understand why they didn't act directly.
@@TheMarcHicks but illuvatar said everything they do including melkor will only further his design.
This is what happens when you introduce 'gods' like the Valar into a story like this. It creates more questions than it answers in the process.
This is my personal opinion it might seem stupid. For me the reason why valar doesnt involve with what happens is the same as why in real life we have bad people and bad things keeps happening. If god or angels decide to help us or stop bad people from doing bad thing then what is the point of living? We have take responsibilities for our actions and learn how to do it by ourself. Saying that valar is not helping doesnt makes sense, it is like saying i am a bad person because devil is making me do bad things or i am a bad person because god is not helping me. If gods and angels helped us in real life then it would be pointless. I dont know i am not really a religious person so what i said might not make any sense but what i am trying to say is just because there is something out there stronger than us doesnt mean that it's helping us is a good thing or it will end everything
its probable the frodo was helped directly by eru multiple times.
The dark lords
I wonder how much of it was deliberate how much of it just worked out but sauron's plans and machinations are so perfect it's amazing that he lost but it still works and make sense
He might be the only villain I've seen blinded by arrogance we're not only is it logical that he would feel that way but also that he was so confident that he knew that no one could oppose them and if they did have the power to oppose or more than likely they would just take his place
villains are blinded by their arrogance constantly.
@@efaristi9737He said that for once it was justified. Not that it merely happened. Usually it is unsatisfying for a villan to lose due to arrogance but in this case souron was right Frodo couldnt destroy it.
@@GhostEmblem Ah i see.
Much to his dismay, Sauron is but a tool of Iluvatar, just one voice in the cosmic music. For, without him, what would Sam and Frodo's courage, hope, loyalty, perseverance - and all those other traits we so esteem - mean?
@@Crash103179 Very true, Illuvatar claim as much at the beginning of time. It put him in quite a shady position XD
9:20 (1) Sauron's biggest mistake was not turning against Morgoth in the 1st age (he had 3 opportunities) When, Fingolfin cut his ankle, when Tulkas chained him, and when Ungoliant captured him. At that point Sauron could have figured out all of Morgoth's weaknesses, returned to Valinor as a hero, and the Valar might have even sent Sauron to Middle Earth as an Istari , (and no-one can argue he wouldn't because that's how he infiltrated the Court of Ar-Pharizon).
(2) Sauron's 2nd biggest mistake was influencing Ar-Pharizon to attack Valinor, any strategist would know Numenor is too valuable as an outpost to watch Valinor's ships and as a stronghold, Sauron's spies (in Numeor) could have stopped all 5 Istari
(3) Sauron's 3rd biggest mistake was not using his superior organizational and language skills to turn Mordor into the greatest economic power in Middle Earth instead of just making it into a Military Industrial Complex. Sorry only players of the Shadow of Mordor games series will get that last joke
And 4 not quitting the whole dark lord thing and opening a restaurant called lord of the onion rings
@@drakoloreseeker5112 Awesome you played Shadow of War too! I thought I was going crazy playing Shadow or War seeing all the wooden buildings in Mordor start to look like vegan Restaurants
Lotr legendarium is full of plot holes covered with plot armours. Good always wins, bad always loses. Quite the opposite of the real world we are trying to survive in.
The Istari were only sent to Middle Earth BECAUSE of Sauron. There would not have been a need for him to become one himself...and if it did work out like that, he certainly wouldn't have been called an Istari.
@@clfoster82 I think you forgot about Shelob, the Balrogs, the Werewolves, the Dragons, and the rest of Morgoth's Generals. Additionally no Dark Lord Sauron also means no Rings of Power, which means the Elves leave sooner for Valinor. Humans wouldn't stand a chance.
Yes, please discuss a comparison between Melkor/Morgoth and Sauron!
I think Sauron's biggest mistake was making the One Ring in the first place. His strategy to rule over the Elves with the ring failed, and the making of the ring permanently divorced his power into two parts, leaving him at risk of either losing the ring to another that could rule over him, or of being permanently diminished by the destruction of the ring.
It was an obvious act of desperation on his part.
He saw it as the only way he could win.
Had his plan worked, he would have ended elven threat to his rule in one master stroke, remember at the time Númenor wasn't so involved in Middle Earth politics so elves were the main resistance against him. After the War of The Elves and Sauron, that's when Númenor became the main threat and by then he'd already made the One Ring.
Another point I think you're forgetting is that, even without the One Ring, Sauron was wearing down those who opposed him. Keeping the Ring away from him might have delayed his victory, but it would not have prevented it.
It says a lot that the powerful northern alliance of Erebor and Dale were only able to delay the destruction of the North just long enough for Frodo to destroy the Ring
If the Ring was never destroyed, Sauron had at least one more army ready to destroy Minas Tirith, plus his army coming in from the north once Erebor fell
Similar to the response to suggestio s of keeping the ring in Rivendell or giving it to Tom Bombadil. In both cases, it is assumed that Sauron would be able to regain it from those protectors "once all others have fallen".
The Council believes that Sauron can eventually overwhelm all opposition, even without the ring, so sending it away doesn't save them.
Got a question if the secret fire wouldve consumed morgoth if he were to possess it, like how the ring consumes and corrupts lesser beings?
Great question!! It’s on the list for a video idea to do it justice 😁
hm, good question, imho the Secret Fire is the spark of creation and so not something that destroys at all. Maybe it could have give Morgoth the power to truely create something uncorrupted.
Great topic! Another point to consider is that the tale strongly implies that there was indeed divine intervention in several subtle ways. A few that come to mind off the top of my head:
1) The sending of the wizards, which you mentioned. Also, Gandalf's return after falling in Moria, which is perhaps the most direct intervention.
2) It is strongly implied that the winds in Aragorn's sails, which tipped the scales at the most critical point of the climax, were a divine gift.
3) The appearance of the eagles is symbolic of having the blessing of Manwe and the Valar.
4) Gollum's role is repeatedly hinted as having a greater, unknown purpose. This cannot merely be something vague such as "fate," because the entire timeline is Iluvatar's song. Gollum's intervention after Frodo's failure is almost certainly inspired by the Christian teaching that men cannot "complete the quest" of their own power, and require God's grace.
I'm sure there are others.
The Dark Lords Please !
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Thank you for pointing out one thing I feel many people like to miss when asking the question "Why didn't Sauron do this or prepare for that?" Sauron was absolutely convinced no one would ever try and destroy the ring not out of hybris, he knew for a certainty it was impossible for anyone to willingly destroy the ring, and it turns out he was _correct_. Frodo was told quite clearly by Galadriel "If you can't do it, no one can." and it turned out Frodo couldn't do it, so it's safe to assume there is not a single being in Middle Earth that could've thrown the ring into the fire (something people also miss who blame Elrond for not doing something about it after defeating Sauron, he couldn't have done it either. Even if Isildur had given up the ring then and there, Elrond would've just kept it to be studied)
well Elrond could have thrown Isildur into the firery pit of Orodruin, avoiding the direct influence of the ring... but i guess, that would only be an option for ttrp gamers :o)
@@belegur8108 I'm not sure even that could've worked, I'd expect even Elrond to hesitate before doing anything to consciously destroy the ring.
@@gunarliepins it's also a mood point, because in the book, Elrond and Isildur never came that near the fires of Mount Doom for the elf pushing the matter so to speak 🤣
Or it's just Elves being Elves (translation - full of their own shit). Gimli would have yeeted the ring while laughing his ass off.
*A thought to consider:* Assume for a moment that the Valar *would* willingly receive the Ring from Middle Earth.
- Would Frodo be able to give it up to them to destroy?
- Would he be able to board the ship (assuming it would be he to bear it to Valinor), knowing there was no turning back?
- Upon coming into sight of the Undying Lands, might he plunge himself into the sea knowing he could not keep it from them once they reached the shore?
- Would giving it up to the Valar, to be surely and forever destroyed at once, be as difficult to Frodo (impossible!) as it was to cast it into the fires of Mt Doom?
If, when the time came, no mortal could bring themselves to destroy the Ring, could any mortal bear to relinquish it to one who decidedly would? Or would it be to them no different than destroying it themselves?
Even Sauron himself would have been unable to destroy the Ring.
@MikeD90 True, but Frodo ultimately wasn't able to destroy the Ring in Mordor anyway. My thought is whether he would fail if he carried the Ring west. Though short of jumping off the boat, I don't think he could withhold it once reaching the shores of Valinor.
... unless the Valar and their agents wouldn't be inclined to take it by force from the ringbearer, and maybe would instead send the corrupted Frodo back to Middle Earth.
Interesting to consider. Not sure if Tolkien ever wrote anything in his letters on the hypothetical.
@TheMarcHicks One might as well tear the beating heart from their own chest, so unthinkable it be. After all - he needs it.
Frodo had no problem to give the Ring to Tom Bombadil, so it is not that far fetched, that he would also do that to one of the Valar.
@@belegur8108 That's one way to look at it, and I think Frodo's ability to part with the Ring, or offer to part with it (at least as far into the journey as Lothlórien) is a testament to his strength of character. But I also wonder if the circumstances differ there: offering it to a more "worthy" or capable bearer, or temporarily to one who had no interest in it.
Like, if Gandalf stood at the cracks of Doom and said, "Frodo, give me the Ring, and I shall cast it into the fire for you," would Frodo give it up in that final moment?
Or if on a boat approaching Aman, he saw Eönwë calling out, ready to receive the Ring and convey it away for its destruction, and this would be the last Frodo saw of it?
Or if he were taken directly to Aulë's forge for it to be unmade... would he be able to set it down for Aulë to destroy?
Or if Aulë raised his hammer and prepared to strike... (I'm making some assumptions here)
It's an interesting question to ponder: how far one willing to destroy the Ring would go before failure. Frodo made it almost the entire way, but failed at the moment of no return -- he could not cast it into the fires.
Granted, he was far into an exhausting journey at that point, at the very limits of his mental and physical endurance, and the Ring had slowly gnawed at his will the entire time. But I do wonder if giving the Ring up to one who would and could destroy it would be a different sort of act in his mind than handing it to someone he trusts to keep it safe.
They also suggest sailing out with the ring and just dropping it to some deep part of the ocean. But there are powers in the deeps of the seas and eventually it will be uncovered. I want to know about that. So essentially they take it to the ocean drop it and eventually when someone stumbles upon it fishing etc. or some water orc finds it. They know eventually whether it is 100 or 100,000 years the ring will be uncovered and back at square one
A silmaril was lost in the same way, so by this logic that should be found eventually too?
@@halikarnak1862 probably. But the ramifications of finding a silmaril vs finding the one ring. I think the point was they can’t half ass this job
Sauron made two mistakes which were particularly noteworthy in that he should have known better:
(1) He allowed Isildur to get close enough to cut the ring from his hand, when he could have simply bashed Isildur with his mace and been done with it.
(2) He let Gollum go, for reasons which are frankly unfathomable. If he expected Gollum to die, then why not just kill him? If he expected Gollum to live and perhaps track down the ring for him, then Sauron should have kept much closer watch on his whereabouts - because that would have actually worked.
The Dark Lords.
As for Saurons mistake, I would say asking the dwarves for information on Hobbits. I believe he was wise to their stubbornness and all it did was allow Dain to prepare for war. Now knowing Sauron was beginning to reach beyond Mordor.
If the dwarves and men of Dale were caught unaware and unprepared, the northern part of the conflict could have been won and further pressure put then on Lothlorien, Gondor & Rohan.
Would love to hear your thoughts on that matter.
well there was a small chance that they would have given him the location of the shire in exchange for the remaining dwarfen rings of power.
Saurons biggest mistake was turning to evil in the first place.
He was trying to Make Middle Earth Great Again.
@@earlofdoncaster5018 Better than falling asleep after every sentence!
Thank you for your amazing content. Please dicuss the Dark Lords.
Sauron's biggest mistake was underestimating Gollum and his lust for the Ring. It was Gollum who unintentionally destroyed the Ring, not by shear will power or desire but by accident as he celebrated on the precipice of the lava pit in Mount Doom after getting the Ring back from Frodo. The Ring had corrupted Gollum so much that he could ignore its will to return to Sauron. Even the Ring abandoned Gollum in the cave back in "The Hobbit" story. It could no longer control Gollum. Only Gandalf had an inkling of the role Gollum would play in the tale of the Ring.
Sauron's biggest mistake was arrogance, believing no one could destroy the ring.
He wasn’t wrong though…
There was someone working silently in Middle Earth.
I appreciate your kind words of respect toward Professer Tolkien more than I can express. I've heard so much negativity aimed at his memory lately. It is refreshing to hear some much deserved praise.
From reading the books, I think Sauron's greatest downfall was that he did not concern himself with hobbits. He did not acknowledge them at all, let alone as an actual threat to him. He did not consider that hobbits were hardy enough to resist the ring of power or endure the conditions of Mordor itself. He was more concerned with Aragon sitting on the throne of Gondor and saw him as the threat. This allowed for Frodo and Sam to make it to Mount Doom. It goes back to the theme of the book that even the smallest and insignificant of us can achieve great and glorious things. Sauron was too focused on the more powerful lords and armies of Middle Earth that he underestimated the Hobbits. Even when he knew a hobbit carried the ring, he still concerned himself with the elves, dwarves, and men around them and not the hobbits themselves. It was the arrogance of thinking people who are of lesser stature and status cannot compete with the likes of Sauron which caused his downfall.
I feel it would have been easy for them to GET the ring over, they just apparently knew it was pointless. The istari could pretty easily have transported it, without much trouble, and even the eagles could fly the ring over(I believe the eagles were still able to cross between middle earth and the undying lands). In fact, if the valar were willing to accept the ring, the could have potentially appealed to Ulmo himself, who desperately wanted to help middle earth with Sauron, but was stayed by the Manwe’s orders. If he was allowed to help, he would gladly take the ring. Of course, if he was allowed to help, he would personally just go kick saurons ass. I think it would have been easy to get Ulmo to at least try to convince the valar to take the ring, even by men, but especially by the elves, and ESPECIALLY especially by the istari, but if they didn’t change their mind, he wouldn’t be able to do a thing.
I absolutely love this content, theories that have to do with the Valar, the hierarchy of gods (notice the small “g” there) that Tolkien organised. Please keep this up!!
I think Sauron's greatest mistake was ever putting himself into a position where isildur could take the ring from him in the first place. He wouldn't have been defeated, mordor wouldn't have been pacified, he wouldn't have spent thousands of years weakened and hiding if he'd just taken down the last alliance in a safer, less supervillaine-esque way. Perhaps he only felt safe to do so because the ring was his insurance- he knew that one of those proud kings of men would take it from him as a trophy or prize, and be manipulated as so many men before him.
The Dark Lords!
Yes please, I'd love a video compare/contrast Morgoth/Sauron!
Dark lords, great channel keep it up
The road from Rivendell to the west was being watched. It was not a viable option at the time.
Gandalf knew this.
The Dark Lord! I would love to see a video comparing Melkor and Sauron!
Isildur never stood before the fires of mount doom. The movies imply that he did, but he never went there. He, along with the last alliance, came fairly close, but it's not that he went there and changed his mind like Frodo. He simply never considered destroying it. He immediately decided to keep it as weregild for his father and brother.
If you do af video on the dark lords, please include their respective worldviews, raison d'être and "how they are evil.
One thing i think you should have mentioned is that any time the Valar intervened in the events of Middle Earth, they tended to completely wreck the place.
They might have beaten Melkor, but at what cost and to what end? Mankind, Dwarves and Elves were still stuck with evil at the end of the day (or era as it may be) and the scars of battle were still fresh in the lands.
As much as the Valar allowed Middle Earth its independence from the gods intervention. They also allowed Middle Earth to be spared from their overwhelmingly powerful side effects on the lands.
If the Valar kept intervening then there would be little to no Middle Earth left to protect and men, dwarves and elves would still not have learned to recognize and combat evil at its roots before it blooms again.
It's very difficult to guess what the Valar would do. It seems that the Will of Eru can be used to explain anything in this world. Perhaps they did nothing, because Eru commanded them to do so. I mean, even Melkor was doing Eru's bidding, if you read the texts: “And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.” It was a genius line in the text. It's kind of a catch-all explanation for these sorts of questions.
One other thing I didn't see mentioned here. Remember, sending the ring over the sea is only a good strategy if there's any reason to think the Valar will take it and destroy it. True, they probably could have destroyed it, but this is only a good strategy if the Council felt certain they would take it. Simply losing the ring in the sea, by this late date, would not have been enough. Sauron didn't need to wield the ring personally to recover the vast majority of his power. By the time of the War of the Ring, he was pretty much as strong as he'd ever been, minus the personal enhancements the ring itself gave him when he wore it. He was militarily, and personally, unstoppable.
The only way to beat him was to use the ring, or to destroy it. So sending it over the sea was only a good idea if the Council believed the Valar would take it. For all the reasons mentioned in the video, they didn't. Coupled with the risk of trying and then just losing it, or even worse losing it to the enemy, it starts to paint a pretty reasonable picture of why the Council opted for a different strategy.
Manwe: "you guys got yourself into this mess, get yourself OUT of this mess!"
The Dark Lords await a video on them....
0:23 _"Build me a RUclips Army worthy of Tol kien"_
........ Is what i say in my head , during the intro
What-if video idea for you to do:
What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
At least one of Sauron's biggest mistakes was not having enough of an intelligence gathering agency, or at least one that could deduce what options his opponents might take. He already knew the Ring was once in the Shire, and then in Bree, and then in Rivendale. Any thought that Elrond took it was dispelled. He at least knew the Ring went South, not West. And have enough intel (Palantir) to know it didn't get to Gondor. And eventually found out not to Isengard (Paltantir, plus the followup by the Ringwraiths).
So, while it's plausible he didn't think anyone would take it to Mount Doom, his available intel should have opened up that possibility, by process of elimination. Plus, a couple of clues at his own doorstep when the Watchers sounded the alarm when the Ring passed into Mordor, as well as the business with Frodo getting away from the guard tower. Obviously this is hindsight, but not entirely. Of course, even the best intelligence agencies can miss.
Sauron’s greatest weakness was his ambition. He spent so much effort doing so many different things that he never focused his efforts on just one thing. He was fighting the dwarves in the north and ruling the haradrim in the east and building up orcs for Gondor’s siege and looking for the ring. He even spread his riders thin looking for it. A smarter task would have been to create a crisis that would bring forth the ring in desperation, spend all his resources conquering or destroying just one group or area. Instead of fighting all the peoples of middle earth united, he could have ethnically cleansed the dwarves and the elves would have turned a blind eye. Then he could have wiped out the elves of Mirkwood and MAYBE Rivendell would have been concerned, but the realms of men would have shrugged and said “go for it!” Rohan already lost touch with Lothlorian and would have viewed the sacking of the scary elf enchantress as at best removing a bad influence.
In other words, Sauron went full Ukraine war on middle earth, uniting everybody against him like Russia. Their reach exceeds their grasp and it will only result in failure. Ambition always results in overreaching and failing to achieve, while small measurable increases make for big results in the long run.
Great video. I would live a dark lords video. I dont know if y have made a video of this but I am curiouse, why would sauron make a ring that he knew could destroy him in the first place?
I’d love a video discussing the Dark Lords!
A point on the Valar not intervening: the last two times they directly were involved, first Beleriand and later Numenor, sank. They may not have been willing to see more of Middle Earth destroyed.
It’s also important to think about the two times the Valar interfered in Middle Earth directly. Both the Battle of the Powers and the War of Wrath caused plenty of collateral damage via geographic upheaval. We don’t know exactly what the result of the Battle of the powers was in terms of geography (apart from most of Utumno being destroyed), but the War of Wrath sank Beleriand beneath the sea.
The Battle of the Powers had less impact on the Elves because they were 100% living in the east at the time. But the War of Wrath displaced huge populations from their homes.
By the end of the third age, men had spread about the continent the same way Elves had spread about under the ages of Stars. So direct interference by the host of Valinor would likely have been as devastating for the free peoples as it would be for Mordor.
I never understood that a Maiar makes a powerful artifact using the skills he learned from Aulë the Vala smith how that artifact belongs to Middle Earth when no one from Middle Earth made it. It belonged to Valinor and Aulë should have been able to destroy it. The reason Elrond gave was bogus and it's not up to lesser creatures to get rid of the meddling's of the most powerful Maiar. But there wouldn't be much of a story. They still could have sent the Ring to Cirdan right after the Council of Elrond and Sauron couldn't do anything before they sailed out of the Havens. Doubtful Sauron would even know about it if they kept it secret.
The Dark Lords, my friend !
The dark lords please, that would be an interesting video.
And Sauron's biggest mistake was joining Morgoth from the start.
I think since the elves were complicit in making the rings, and that Numenor had Sauron captive and were willing to launch an invasion against the Valar WITH Sauron, the Valar assigned the Middle Earth Sauron responsibility to them. With a little help of the Istari to make sure it gets done.
I believe the ring could have been destroyed in Valinor, and that it could've been sent off on a boat. But the ring, sensing danger, would cause the elves aboard to be tempted to take it, maybe even causing them to fight each other over it. Maybe it would call out to Cirdan specifically, causing confusion or promising power if the ring is returned.
The Ring would never allow itself to be destroyed, even by Sauron himself. It took an act of Illuvitar to destroy the Ring in the end.
I have wondered whether the corruptive nature of the ring would have been powerful enough to corrupt even one of the Valar had it passed into the west. And as for the suggestion in the council that they throw it into the ocean, what if Ossë had taken it? He had already been prone to violence and was partially corrupted by Melkor in the early ages of the world. The course they chose was easily the wisest.
It contains Sauron's spirit, Sauron came from Valinor, therefore, it's their responsibility.
The Dark Lords. No one I'm aware of has truly delved into that subject. Break Tolktube man.
I don't think Sauron made any mistakes he was just very (supernaturally?) unlucky. Frodo, Sam and Smeagol's journey I believe was too serendipitous to be unaided by Eru Illuvatar and part of his plan to allow men (and halflings) to come into their own and inherit middle Earth. I don't believe the Noldor would ever leave their jealous realms without a clear divine portent such as this and the pull though the destruction of their rings.
I think Sauron's biggest mistake would be assuming that the ring would never be destroyed. He was very much right in his assumption that no-one would willingly destroy it, but he's aware of the existence of The One, he should've probably assumed that Eru Ilúvatar would have intervened if he took things too far.
noone COULD destroy it willingly. He didn't consider it would be destroyed, as it was literaly impossible.
@@oliverjensen223 I'm aware that it couldn't be willingly destroyed, not even by Sauron himself, but that's only half the point. The point is that the ring could be destroyed, just not willingly. The other half is that Sauron as an Ainu should be aware of Ilúvatar's existence, and the possibility of Him intervening to destroy the ring. He has been the "victim" of one of Ilúvatar's earlier interventions in the destruction of Númenor, which Sauron caused by taking things too far. He has no reason to assume that Eru wouldn't intervene a second time even if the Valar themselves don't seem to care all that much according to Sauron
Step 1 - build a big blast furnace
Step 2 - increase the temperature inside unitl it reaches around 1000 degrees Celsius
Step 3 - yeet the ring into the furnace
Step 4 - gradually increase the temperature inside by basic engineering and magic if you want to speed up the process
Step 5 - Watch the temperature exceed that of a volcano
Step 6 - Watch the one ring getting obliterated
Step 7 - Win
And all of that with a technology they had for millenia at the very least, judging by the armour worn by even the most basic of grunts.
Oh well, I guess Tolien simply followed the writing tradition of not knowing the numbers and capabilities they give.
I think you miss a major reason that the one ring could not be taken to Valinor. We see in the death of Isildur that the ring had a mind of its own and would betray any who tried to keep it from its Master. Something terrible and/or unforeseen would have befell any party who would have attempted to take the ring permanently beyond Sauron's grasp. Frodo had great resistance to the ring but yet at the very end when the ring "realized Frodo's plan" it exerted itself and its power on him and he failed. Only due to Golom's attack and the two of them struggling for possession of the ring was it destroyed. Bottom line if elves had tried to take it to Valinor the ring itself would have caused the mission to fail in some way and though it may have been lost in the sea somehow in someway it would have been reclaimed by Sauron who could wait patiently for the ring to return to him as he was more that immortal he was as one of the Maiar eternal.
I feel like Sauron's biggest mistake was the One Ring itself. It's creation tipped off the elves to his continued evil as well as provided a convenient way to end him for someone with the willpower to destroy it... Sure, it had massive levels of protection, including corrupting the wielder, but it still was not a very good tool considering it seemed content to be lost in a river for quite some time and was only rediscovered by pure chance, then proceeded to wait under a mountain when Sauron was setting up a fortress practically next door in Mirkwood. Not to mention how it was always claimed to be very powerful and everyone treated it like it was a superweapon they could use to wipe out armies, but in the end, the ONLY power it demonstrated at all was invisibility for a single person and somehow anchoring Sauron to the world even in a state of death. It couldn't even be used to control the Nazgul, who listened to Sauron directly instead even though the rings they had should have been linked to it!!!
I can also thing of another possible reason. Are we sure that Valar were immune to the ring?
They probably could. But Luthien Tinuviel successfully casted a sleep spell on Melkor. So he affected his mind. And he is a Vala while she is just half Maia.
If the ring could have even small influence and just make a Vala more greedy, imagine the impact in the hands of tulcas or worst, what would Aule create influenced by the ring?
Great video! However, early in the video you mentioned Frodo stood on the same bridge as Isildur. But that's incorrect. Isildur never stood in the Sammath Naur. The conversation of Isildur rejecting the ring took place in their camp, not in the volcano!
The Dark Lords!
There's another reason the sending The Ring to Valinor wouldn't work and I'm surprised you didn't bring it up. Whomever was responsible for making sure that The Ring reached Valinor would have ended up claiming it and turning the ships around before it ever reached its destination. The Ring itself was smart and would have exerted its influence on whomever was most likely to bring it closer to its master.
I feel like Sauron's biggest mistake was keeping the bulk of his forces in Mordor. Perhaps he was playing defense until he had the ring. Maybe he was trying to be ready if the Valar had decided to set sail. Maybe he needed those forces in case a vassal empire in the east or south had decided to rebel. Still, it seems he could have easily overwhelmed the surrounding lands and made passage into Mordor much more difficult had he more fully deployed his forces. Why he kept the bulk of his forces in Mordor might make for an interesting video in its own right.
I've always wondered did sam and frodo plan to go through the black gate ?
Yes
So the Valar basically said that the ring was a middle earth problem? The ring was created by a Maiar right? How was this not their problem???
1:30 - honestly, when I read it now I don't find it confusing at all compared to when I was younger, and I don't mean lore-wise. It is actually quite well written.
You could argue that the Istari were actually there to recreate the conditions of the fight against Melkor in a way... Melkor against a lot of Valar and the people of Middle-Earth, Sauron against a lot of Maiar and the people of Middle-Earth, so the Istari as counterparts to the Valars active involvement in the fight against Melkor. Sure, their powers were limited by their bodies, but that's maybe an oversimplification and a narrow view on what 'powers' are. We can't really say for the Blue Wizards or Radagast, but Gandalf's 'power' of inspiring people and bringing them hope, strength to rise up against the Enemy is actually an immensely valuable trait. Not to mention the Voice of Saruman, imagine if he had fully dedicated himself to aiding the free people like Gandalf had. Add to that what Radagast and the Blue wizards might have been able to bring to the table, combined with the wisdom they held, and maybe in the best case scenario Sauron would not have had the odds in his favor, but more balanced and the outcome coming down to the free people. At the very least, 'letting the free people decide their fate' but then sending the Istari with the purpose of pushing people towards opposing Sauron instead of joining him, doesn't sound to me like truly letting the people decide for themselves, unless you look at it as the Istari are there to offer another choice than the one Sauron brings and the freedom lies in the choice between those two options.
Well of course, depending on the version you choose about the Blue WIzards, they might or might not have been doing what Gandalf did. At one point it is said that they probably did help the people in the East as Gandalf did in the West, at another point it is said that only Gandalf staid true to his mission. (Correct me if I'm wrong though) I can't really say what Radagast could have brought to the table that would have been comparable to Saruman's and Gandalf's "powers", but maybe we shouldn't even count Radagast (and Pallando) since the Valar actually wanted to send three Maiar to Middle-Earth as the Istari, but then Alatar wanted to take his homie Pallando and Yavanna was getting tired of Radagast...
Ye id love to watch a video comparing the dark lords
i see you tryna drive up that community engagement
Sauron's greatest mistake, was underestimating Eru Illuvatar. It was providence and ucatastrophe, the tools of Eru that defeated him. Not Men, Elves, Dwarves, Maia, Vala or Hobbits, as they were the tools not the wielder. Sauron had not learned the lessons of watching his own previous master being undone, and had failed to understand that he was doomed to failure in his plan to dominate Middle-Earth. This misunderstanding that the final word and the very architect of the whole narrative had fated him to fail, just like Melkor before him, led him to try and echo the same failings that trapped Melkor. Even if the fellowship had been unsuccessful, eventually Sauron would have been overthrown in the designs of Eru, because no creature can do anything that is contrary to the creator's will. As was shown in the beginning, introducing discord leads to a change of the theme, therefore, the only option is harmony.
I think this is the great genius of the work. Sauron is defeated by his own hubris and self-will. The very greed and murderous possessiveness that the ring provoked as a mechanism for its own preservation, was the very thing that destroyed it. Eru had turned the finest plans of the most devious mind in on themselves.
However, this highlights a bit of an issue I have with Tolkien's philosophy as I understand it. Tolkien's resolution to the "problem of evil" is wrapped up in this idea, where the existence of Evil is like a garnish on the rich and delightful meal that is God's creation. The overcoming of this thing we call evil creates a greater story, a greater narrative than if it wasn't present at all. Yet, it fails to address meaningless evil and malevolence. The Dark Lords were indeed evil, but they weren't senseless and sadistic without purpose. They didn't inflict suffering for no reason, but in order to buck and bristle at Illuvatar's designs, degrading his children for their own pleasure and pride. Yet the world we find ourselves in has much senseless sadistic evil, as well as random and intense suffering, for which no purpose could be construed by mortal minds. I think there are answers to this, but I don't think Tolkien adequately addressed the question as well as he might have thought. Although, I will admit, I haven't read everything the man had to say on the subject and like all followers of a religious tradition, it is likely there were some questions he left for answers both ineffable and incomprehensible.
I've always been perplexed by the apparent non-intervention of the Valar, but bringing in Arthur C. Clarke's theme of "childhood's end" and the reminder that the Valar did intervene by sending the Istari -- Maiar on the same level as Sauron -- are good explanations. Illuvatar probably advised the Valar through Manwe about what their level of intervention should be. I also think Illuvatar intervened directly by giving Bilbo luck and by resurrecting Gandalf.
I seem to remember that Tolkien said in one letter how Iluvatar intervened in mount Doom, at the very last scene, by making gollum trip.
I have a quick question before I watch this video. If the ring could draw orc's then the watcher in the water to it then could It draw sea monsters like the 1 we see in the rings of power show? An wouldn't the ship get sunk by the sea monsters. I don't know I'm just asking
Thought on why not use the eagles to fly to Mordor: Did not the Fellowship recognize the advantage imparted by secrecy against Sauron? Wouldnt a giant eagle flying into Mordor draw too much attention and risk Sauron focusing his full force on protecting Mount Doom and downing an eagle carrying a ring bearer?
It's amazing how essential Gandalf is to have it all. He's basically Saurons little brother.
What is the soundtrack starting at 1:19 ?
Interesting thoughts
I personally would love to see a video about the dark lords
The childhoods end thing is always hypocritical to me, Sauron was the Valars problem, he’d not human, elf or Dwarf. Sauron is equally not of Middle Earth, if they’d been bothered to actually finish the job at the end of the Wars with Belerialand and hunt him down rather than just let him sneak off it could all have been avoided. Ultimately Sauron was one of the Maia who went rogue, it should have been their business and if they were self righteous asses they would have dealt with what was their problem
One should also not forget that Sauron was the servant of Morgoth. Morgoth was cast away into the void. For all the power Morgoth had beyond Sauron, Sauron did manage to bind himself to Middle-Earth through the ring. After the destruction of the ring, Sauron was dispersed in Middle-Earth, but never cast to the void.
Oh and those Silmarils that Morgoth stole and one of which was brought back to Valinor? Those were fashioned in Valinor. They did not belong in Middle-Earth.
And yeah, Tolkien loves people. That oozes from every part of the story.
The dark lords
when i take an objective look at Sauron as a indirect character, i see his failure to hold many aspects, first among them, narcissism, he think himself so grand and holy, that he is provoked and want to muck the threats so much, that he ignores everything else. see the battle of hornburg, and minith tirith, that he ignores isengard and the hobbits who he know to exist, and gandalfs prans(told to saruman) is therefore presumed to be known to sauron, he would have to ignore the hobbits and the rings progression(to look the other way) . besides that, he could not belive that one would choose to destroy the ring, and therebuy the objective of the party, because that would lesser his perseption of the ring and thereby his own might and grandure.
i vill watch more of your videos, you research a lot and tell thins nicely
Perhaps Sauron's biggest mistake was letting Gollum go after torturing him.
-Build me an army worthy of More Door
-Builds him 3 big towers and a lot of small towers
-Install More Door
So basically the Valar deal with the Valar problem and the Maiar deal with the Maiar problem.
I never understood why elrond didn't force isildur to throw the ring in or even push him in with it, you've had to battle your way through an enormous war with everything that goes with that and then watches isildur walk away with it
I've seen this considered by some, and the most compelling argument I've seen is this: by seizing a weregild from Isildur, or outright killing him, Elrond would have sparked a devastating war between the already-exhausted men and elves. The men would see it as a betrayal by the elves, theft and murder, unforgivable and demanding an answer. In saving Middle Earth from its potential ruin in the future, he would ensure its ruin would come to pass anyway.
But I'm also not confident that Elrond could have destroyed the Ring either, nor that he was confident that he could. Coming into ownership of the Ring through violence (especially by murder) seems to greatly accelerate its corruption: it was because Bilbo took it with mercy and pity (for Gollum) that he endured it for so long.
I think we would have immediately seen Elrond's heart wither from taking it through an evil deed, even if he was motivated by a good purpose. *Elrond, Dark Elf-Lord of Middle Earth.* King to elves and men alike. Wise in counsel, mighty in works, and *terrible in wrath.*
Either way, Elrond was a very wise character. No doubt he recognized the folly of trying to take the Ring from Isildur. And perhaps he foresaw that Isildur would come to recognize what needed to be done. Indeed, Isildur died on his way to to seek Elrond's counsel about what to do with the Ring, realizing his mistake. Had fate seen to it otherwise, they might have ventured to Mt Doom together to destroy it...
*...and failed anyway, for none could bring themselves to destroy the Ring.*
Isildur and Elrond were not as close to the Cracks of Doom as the movies imply. Also, Elrond wasn't as insistant about Isildur destroying the Ring as the movies imply. Indeed, at the Council, Elrond seems to be talking more in hindsight, and that neither he nor Cirdan were certain that the Ring *needed* to be destroyed in order to end Sauron for good.
The elves managed to perform the Kinslaying and Oath of Feanor without the item of ultimate corruption egging them on. Keeping it in the undying lands would just be guaranteeing another tragedy.
I was under the impression that the Valar didn't intervene was because they were reluctant to have another half of Middle Earth sink under the waves.
Saurons mistake was that if the people of Middle Earth, aka Frodo, could get the ring close enough to Mt Doom, then he, (iluvitar) would tip the scales. Having used Golum as he did was just poetic justice on Aru's part. Once Frodo and Sam set out on their own, Sauron's fait was sealed.
Ah the help of the istari. That worked out. Saruman turned coat, Rhadagast got high on mushrooms, the two blue wizards went off to the east and did who the hell knows what. According to Tolkien only Gandalf fulfilled his mission. I kid mostly, Rhadagast did what he could, but was kinda to concerned with the flowers and beasts to be of to much help. The istari weren’t exactly the greatest help imo.
Nazgul vs Oath Breakers please!
I bet taking the ring to Valinor would have been similarly difficult to the ringbearer(s) themselves as was dropping the ring into the lava. They could have not made themselves do it, and succumbed during the boat trip. But without any Mt. Dhoom lava to fall into.
What if: Orome on one of his rides - "Ooh look! Shiny ring in the river!"
What if Gothmog lived? would he join Sauron or fight him into the 3rd age? or what if Sauron took the Silmarils for himself?
My own thought: the Valar were loath to intervene directly to stop Sauron, not out of a lack of concern for humans, but because the last time they did intervene to stop Morgoth, their power and armies destroyed a massive expanse of western Middle-Earth. Beleriand, once the home of the elves of elder days, was mostly sunk below the sea. If they'd come in force again, to destroy Sauron in Mordor, how much more of the land would be ruined and sunk? So, I think they sent the Istari, and limited the power they could use directly, because of that precedent. Direct intervention by powers of that magnitude had proven to be disastrous.
I was under the impression that the Valar wouldn't tolerate a tool of evil in the undying lands.
and yet they let Ungoliant live in those lands for ages.
And Morgoth. But Ungoliant doesn't seem to be one of the fell beasts. A creation of Illuvatar. Just doing what giant magical spiders do.
@@johnmiller5987 i am not so sure, if Ungoliant is a creation of Illuvatar, or if she is an entity from the void, who entered Arda, when Eru called all the Valar to help in his song.
Actually, I think Sauron’s biggest error was overestimating men, not underestimating. It was his fear of Aragorn that lead to the emptying of Mordor, and he was quite correct in that none would wish to harm the ring. If he had a more realistic view of the prowess of the host of the west, Frodo and Sam would not have reached Orodruin.
My question is though...
We already have ideas of what if Gandalf took the One Ring, as well as what if Saruman took the One Ring...
But what kind of ruin upon the world would happen if Radagast the Brown took the One Ring?
Likely still with Gandalf as his main advisor, but Radagast with his power over all flora and fauna... amplified by the One Ring and shifting events surrounding that
I think Saurom's biggest mistake was turning to evil in the first place. I know he started from a desire to do good - to establish order in the world - which was corrupted - to do so with no regard for the lives or agency of Eru's children. Evil in the Legendarium is always self-defeating. By resorting to it, Sauron set himself up for failure.
The Valar already helped Middle Earth by sending the Istari and even further helped by bringing back Gandalf after he died so that he could complete his mission. Basically they wanted to teach Middle Earth to fend for themselves but they didn't completely abandon them. Kinda cool if you ask me.
When Aragorn and the men of the west marched on the black gate it was a last ditch effort. If the ring hadn't been destroyed Sauron would have likely won then and there. In other words, if the ring had been sent into the west or even simply thrown into the sea, middle earth would have fallen