Where is Valinor?
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- Опубликовано: 25 ноя 2024
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Finally a reasonable explanation for the Bermuda Triangle - its that bloomin straight road and all of our missing ships are washing up ashore in Elf Land
Bermuda doesnt even have any statistically noticeable excess of lost air-or sea vehicles.
Its really all just storytelling heaped onto earlier storytelling.
But a fun story it is to imgagine WW2-aircrews staggering onto the jewel-strewn white shores of aman. Being reluctantly greeted by teleri fishermen who remember Ar-Pharazôn´s armies.
They don’t have the hallowed boats, though. If the journey can be attempted in boats that are different, I’d wager that they are not washing up on the shore of Valinor, but are getting lost somewhere in between, but I’m not sure what that would look like.
No wonder Elves don't like humans in every lore, we littered all over their aftrrlife
Nah. I figured this out in a different post about mimics in D&D. The post was joking about the players wondering if the entire ship they were on was a mimic. I said "no, the ship isn't a mimic...but the ocean is." Someone replied that the Bermuda Triangle is its mouth, and we decided that's canon now.
@@FischerNilsAit’s also not even a triangle. Half the stories of things going missing within the triangle are actually nowhere near it lol
My impression was when Eru Illuvatar made Arda a spherical world, Valinor was seemingly sealed in its own realm or dimension and only reachable by permission of the Valar and Eru, to prevent another maritime invasion as when Ar-Pharazon’s armada stormed Valinor.
The spiritual realm being reachable by sea yet separated from the mortal world was similar to Avalon of Arthurian mythology, especially for how a mortally wounded King Arthur is borne west to be healed and rest until Britain’s hour of need.
My view is that Valinor is on the Unseen dimension, the one that the Nazgul existed in. Glorfindel and the Ainur have a presence in the Unseen, so I argue that while before the Akkalabêth Valinor was in both Realms after it the Land of the Valar was fully submerged in the Unseen.
Could use Arthur about now..
Sounds right to me - don't they say that Valinor can only be reached in a straight line? I mean, that's hard to do on the surface of a sphere. Eru could make that happen, though.
03:33 I shoula waited.
@@igorlopes7589 the unseen realm? Cannot be, as the landscape is identical in both the seen and unseen, thus if humans were sailing and the unseen world just magically had a different landscape, this wouldn't make sense.
Elves always exist in the seen and unseen realm, and if the landscape were different, this would be disastrous. This isn't another 'realm' with different geography and landscapes and such; it is literally just the same world but the spirit is shifted into its own 'wavelength,' so to speak, so people not in this attuned world cannot see such spirit.
When Frodo saw GlorFindel in his full glory, that was because he was seeing him in the unseen and seen 'worlds.'
Calling it a 'world' is what is confusing people, as the seen and unseen world are not two separate worlds (they are in the actual sense, but not in the modern definition of world, of what most people think of when they think of world), but, rather, are in two separate phases; and if you are phase shifted into this dimension, you likewise see beings in this same phase; if you are not in the same phase, you do not see them.
The ground, the actual Earth itself (Arda), is not something that is in a different phase; its phase locked to all phases, so everyone sees the same actual/physical earth
Never would I expect to hear "geosynchronous orbit" in a video about Tolkien. :)
Glorfindel is the definition of how a good employee gets "rewarded" with more work
Dig the best holes, they'll reward you with a bigger shovel.
Cirdan. Poor Cirdan. The eons extra he had to work before retirement. When you're an elf, and you're so old your hair is gray and you have a long beard... And he was on the last ship. And he built ALL of the ships for all of the elves! And all along, his dream was to go West! But no! Some asshole king disappeared or whatever, and he had to go to try to find him, and he had to help everyone, and he had to learn how to build ships that could stand the trip, and then build all the fucking ships. Makes going for a stroll i mordor and throwing a ring into some volcano sound like a pretty good deal for a ticket on one of those boats! 😄
@@LA6NPA it's worse, some asshole king disappeared....to go get laid
The metaphysics of Tolkien’s world are at once thought-provoking, emotionally fulfilling, and extremely beautiful. Another wonderful video, Robert! Thank you for all you do.
Okay but the REAL question is where was Valinor when Westfold fell??
Valar responded to Morgoth conquering Beleriand by doing absolutely bugger all until someone actually broke through all their defences and knocked at their door. They're not the most dependable allies, for sure
In Valinor.
Jesus, I love this comment!!❤
"The grey rain-curtain turned to silver and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores, and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise." In the movie this is how Gandalf described the afterlife to Pippin in the midst of the battle for Minas Tirith.
In Tom's house Frodo "either in his dreams or out... heard a sweet singing in his mind: a song that seemed to come like pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass, until at last it was rolled back, and a far green country opened before him under a swift sunrise." [Fog on the Barrow Downs]
He wasn't describing the afterlife; he was describing his faint memories of Valinor, which is not the afterlife.
@@pyropulseIXXI Even among the Valar only Mandos and Manwë know the afterlife of mortals: men and hobbits. Tom is not Valar but, being First, he knows too, & the vision comes to Frodo in Tom's house
(Gandalf doesn't meet Bombadil, to compare visions, until his own mission is complete).
This is Gandalfs description of the afterlife in the films to Pippin during the battle at minas tirith in film 3. However, it is Tolkiens description of Valinor in the books. If I remember correctly, the description is used during Frodo's vision of it in Tom Bombadil's abode in book 1 and also when he actually sails there at the end of book 3.
@@pyropulseIXXI I'm inclined to agree, as we know who and what Gandalf is and where he comes from, but the movie makes the glaring error of portraying this dialogue as such, as an "afterlife" for those who don't know Tolkien's work at least.
Which has always been funny to me, as Pippin talks about an end, Gandalf says no, not an end and goes on to describe a place in which Pippin can actually never set his feet on or get too XD. Quite in fact the Destiny of mortal creatures, only Eru would know.
So I just head canon movie Gandalf is just absolutely trolling that fool of a Took before his potential imminent death XD
You really have a way with words, Robert. I knew all the info presented in this video, and knew the answer in its entirety, but the way you present it is really evocative of Tolkien himself, and reminds me of why I adore his world so much.
Reminds me very much of Narnia and the other Ring worlds in the work of CSLewis. A real place, physically accessible, but only by magic, or invitation, or chance.
I must say this Channel is the best Channel which covers Tolkien. Especially because of your voice. It's perfect for narrating. I like others too, but yours is without a doubt on another level. Thanks for doing what you do Robert!
So here's a theoretical question. You have two ships. One full of Elves bound for Valinor. The other not bound for Valinor. However, they sail parallel to each other. From the viewpoint of the people on the 2nd ship, what happens with the 1st ship? I think, based on what Tolkien wrote, that it would slowly appear to rise into the sky as it follows the Straight Road while the 2nd ship falls away beneath the 1st one as it follows the curvature of the world.
Maybe. This reminds me of Special Relativity thought experiments with travelling spaceships.
@@maksphoto78 Imagine having two Swan ships, travelling close to the speed of light...
I view it more of a secret path that only the elves know how to get there. Because of that I think that the 2nd boat would be able to follow it because it is in fact a physical bridge type thing, but Eru or Ulmo wouldn’t allow it and would sink the 2nd boat.
I think that the Valar have placed nameless things in the ocean to prevent the hijacking of the road to Valinor. So, a ship not designed to travel to Valinor would be shredded.
What a beautiful close you made. I have not yet finished reading the red book, but the way you described being able to glimpse only a bit of valinor, right before dying, makes me feel that this is what I would want to experience as my last moment.
When I picture the halls of Mandos, all I can think is that they’ve got a special place where Feanor is still sitting facing a corner wearing a dunce hat
Hehehehehehehehehehe, naughty boys get a time-out in the shame corner.
Why? He is a legend
@@SWOTHDRA His stupidity was legendary indeed.
@@ArdashirSassanigwould you elaborate on the stupidity a bit. Thanks
@@gipsonjoseph8207 created and coveted the silmarils, caused a civil war amongst the Elves of Valinor causing the first Kinslaying, threatened to kill Fingolfin, and believed the lie Melkor told him that "Elves were being held captive in Valinor by the Valar so Man could conquer Middle Earth". Now, because of his actions, he must wait in the Halls of Mandos for the Dagor Dagorath, the final battle, wherein he'll participate in the war against Melkor, break the silmarils, and give the Light to Yavanna so she may restore Telperion and Laurelin, the two trees of Valinor.
Very poetic writing and narration by In Deep Geek.
When I was a kid, in my hometown in Croatia there was a dance club called Valinor. It was famous for being a venue for techno, trance and mainstream pop events. It was the home of pop culture coming from, incidentally, the West.
Unfortunately, in its later years it became a home for Serbian turbofolk music and scene. So, in our world, there is a Valinor that fell to the forces of the dark. Well, actually, forces of kitsch and glitter, but you get what I mean.
This is fuckin hilarious. Thank you for sharing
This is funny... man, I understand that Serbs and Croats are not friends, but we as Slavs and white race as whole must stand together to protect our legacy, DNA and culture (including Tolkien's books).
Ala si se iskenjo sad hahahaha,
They're taking the hobbits to Isengard
@@AlexanderVasilyev-cf4ec "the white race" lol Tolkien would've hated you.
Sometimes, when either reading Tolkien's work, or reading/watching something about him and the legendarium, it actually feels real.
Now we finally know where Amelia Earhart went lmao
She's just hanging out with the Valar
That quote at the end is my favorite from all of Tolkien's work. Actually made me tear up the first time I read it.
My first new In geek deep video.
And I must say, cant get enough. My love for Middle earth and lotr has been rekindled.
Thanks so much.
Always happy to see a new IDG video!
I love your voice. It's so calming and peaceful. You are a true bard
Indeed and thanks to Robert for not going down the AI narrator route!
I'm dyslexic so the silmarillion is a no go , this helps me so much , therapeutic and fascinating, and I usually can't hold my attention with fiction. but this ! *chefs kiss*
I'm 64 now but since I first read the Rings trilogy as a teen I have always been moved by Frodo's description of the Far West much more than the description of any afterlife in any scripture from the "real world". I've read them all and if Heaven, Nirvana, Zion, Elysium, and the various and sundry descriptions of enlightenment had half the hold on me as Tolkien's far green country, you might find me in church more often.
Tara's Turquoise Pureland of Yurlod Kurpa is described as such: "Covered with manifold trees and creepers, resounding with the sound of many birds, And with murmur of waterfalls, thronged with wild beasts of many kinds; Many species of flowers grow everywhere." It's a mountainous land covered completely in forests, with opulent palaces embedded in the high cliffs. Closest thing I know of.
What a wonderful video, you never cease to impress! Your closing thoughts were particularly beautiful and reminded me of one of my favorite literary quotes which is ironically about beginnings and not endings. It comes from "The Magician's Nephew" (Chronicles of Narnia) when Frank the Cabby is witnessing the creation of Narnia:
‘Glory be!’ said the Cabby. ‘I’d ha’ been a better man all my life if I’d known there were things like this.’
I hope everyone is able to find something that inspires them to be better no matter their current circumstances ...
I always liked Frank the Cabby, when he was accidently brought into the newly created Narnia, Aslan made his horse into the first Pegasus, and also brought Frank's wife to join him.
They were both clearly good people, as Aslan made them the first King & Queen of Narnia.
I like how poetic you get with this one. Bravo!
Marvelously said. The straight road that we can only glimpse just for a second.
And is so hard to stay on...
I knew all that was said in the video, but I watched it all the way through nonetheless. You have a very eloquent way of putting it all into words that makes these videos very nice to watch.
I’ve been there and they want you to make longer videos 😮
i like to think that tolkien made this straight road to incorporate arthur and his passing into avalon into his mythos. makes sense as, just like frodo, arthur went to avalon to heal his wounds.
“It seems then that the Arthurian Avalon, the Fortunate Isle, Insula Pomorum, the dominion of Morgan La Feé, has now been in some mysterious sense identified with Tol Eressëa, the Lonely Island. But the name Avallon entered, as a name of Tol Eressëa, at the time when the Fall of Númenor and the Change of the world entered also, with the concept of the Straight Path out of the Round World that still led to Tol Eressëa and Valinor, a road that was denied to mortals, and yet found, in a mystery, by Ælfwine of England. How my father saw this conjuncture I am wholly unable to say.”
-Christopher Tolkien, ‘The Fall of Arthur’
Your guess is pretty much confirmed as correct
I put "valinor" into google maps and it is apparantly a lodge 10km north of Hull in England. If you travel West to get to it then that would seem to imply Middle earth is a small village on the coast called Mappleton. We should have an annual event dressed as LOTR characters in Mappleton to confuse the crap out of the locals
Thank you, Robert!
Your videos are very well done, and if you'd sell a coffee mug with your logo and the background scene on it, like your channel banner, I'd get one!
Your prose are beautiful, I don't like anyone messing with Tolkien but you do it very well and are lovely to listen to. 💗
Tolkien putting in a nice Arthurian link there with Avallone. King Arthur, dying after the Battle of Camlann was taken to the Isle of Avalon by boat.
There is a poem by Tolkien about the voyage of Saint Brendan the Navigator which seems to describe the Saint and his companions arriving in Valinor, rather than the east coast or North America.
Is the east coast of Valinor cluttered with abandoned ships?
That or the ship's material are reused in buildings.
@@stevetopop2028Or raised up to carry new stars, perhaps.
That ending may be the most powerful yet, I'm on the verge of tears :')
Just started listening to these. Fan of LOTR since childhood. I love the love you bring to this. Thank you so much. ❤❤❤
West of middle earth
As I clicked on the video I was snarkily saying "it's West, of course" to myself lmaoo
The west is the best.
Thanks….🤣
Nothing else need be said.
Some heroes don't wear a cape xd
Marvellous. One of your best. Thank you.
Have always been so intrigued by this place. Thank you for this video Robert.
I wasn't sure myself before this video that Valinor was among the realm of the living and was possibly a realm of the dead much like the concept of Heaven. As usual, your video was very insightful and informative. Your documentary-like format and impeccable detailed explanations are always a treat.
It's like Avalon or Tir Na Nog. Existing in parallel, needing the right magic to slip through the mists between the worlds and sail on.
South America in pre-historic times. We're finding all the temples with LIDAR presently. There are tens of thousands.
Thanks, a really compelling description. It is so Tolkien to keep the magical at arms length, seen as you said, only "out of the corner of your eye." His world and his works strike so true because, in the end they are like our own world; Magic here is never seen and only rumored or said to have existed in antiquity. Our logical, practical minds would reject obvious magic as fable or farce.
The way you describe humans getting one last glimpse of Valinor before dying is how I think you would approach a Black Hole. A great unknown that we can't return from, but if you were on your way out and you had that chance to see inside before the end...
This was so much more than any other explanation of the Undying Lands than I have ever heard. Thank you!
You are a poet. Thank you.
That was a truly beautiful closure for this video!
Bifrost - pronounced beef-rost, probable etymology "bifa" (shake, shimmer quiver) and "rost" (rainbow, bridge), meaning "shimmering bridge", possible origin also, bilrost, "bil" (fleeting, momentary (not to be confused with the modern Norwegian word bil for car, which is a shortening of "automobile"). So it's not bi-frost, not two and ice, but bifa and rost. Hence "beef-rost". Hope this helps!
Also, your videos are such a wonderful well of deep knowledge! Thank you! ❤
Beautifully written, TY
That was one of the better vids that In Deep Geek has done.
Robert, I am absolutely addicted to your work. I hope to be a supporter soon.
Another great treatment of an interesting topic, thank you Robert.
A completely unrelated question has occurred to me, in case you'd care to address it in a future video: How did Gollum know that Frodo was a Baggins? He knew Frodo had the Ring of course, because he sensed it. But Frodo never "introduces himself" - indeed Gandalf had mentioned to him how foolish it had been for Bilbo to tell Gollum his name.
Frodo introduces Gollum to something Bilbo had:
"This is Sting. You have seen it before once upon a time.
Let go, or you'll feel it this time." [The Taming of Smeagol]
Gollum followed the Fellowship in Moria and beyond for some time before Frodo and Sam caught him, so he may have heard it mentioned at some point that Frodo was a Baggins. Merry and Pippin, especially, were not exactly models of discretion and Gollum had very sharp ears. However, you do raise a good point.
My own theory is that Tolkien had basically antedated Arthur C. Clark. His ships to the west were sufficiently advanced technology to seem magical to those unaware. It would satisfy his urge for steampunk (see Roberts video on that) and fit the description of the consequences of not beeing on a boat while arriving.
I know the original ships only had to go by sea. But now I imagine Saruman teaching new shipbuilding and navigation to Earandil, to travel the sky, and to Cirdan, to resume the voyages after the changing of the shape of Arda.
Tolkien didn't have an urge for steampunk...
Mentioning the steampunk, I wonder if the flying ship of Earendil, the presumed flying ships of Numenor and now these presumably flying ships to Valinor are pretty much the same technology/magic. Maybe Numenorians discovered the secret and could potentially go to Valinor on their own, without the Elves' help - assuming they weren't all but destroyed. Eru, being all powerful, could probably make Arda round without completely wiping out Numenorians, but he probably needed to send a message to anyone who would potentially discover the "flying ship" secret again.
That said, the flying ships of Numenor were a scratched idea, if I remember correctly, so it doesn't really come into the actual story. It's a fun thought, though.
One of the most beautiful parts I find about Valinor is that it's a realm of peace and healling.
When I read the part where Frodo reaches Valinor, the way Tolkein describes the grey rain curtain peeling back and beholding a far green country, I always feel like a great weight has bee
One of the most beautiful parts I find about Valinor is that it's a realm of peace and healling.
When I read the part where Frodo reaches Valinor, the way Tolkein describes the grey rain curtain peeling back and him beholding a far green country, I always feel like it's a bit metaphorical for Frodo's spiritual state and his potential healing.
The terrors and the hurt he endured on his journey obviously weighed so heavily on his heart that he could never fully enjoy the world he lived in the same way again with the grey rain curtain signifying the spiritual shroud that now hangs over him between him and normal life now. Almost like a spiritual form of PTSD.
Then, as he gets closer and he hears the singing, it peels back and all turns to silver glass, signifying his sorrow turning into something beautiful (something quite prominent in Eru's third theme in the Ainunindale). Then the true beauty of a world unmarred reveals itself to be far and green, signifying the boundless nurturing and healing to be received and the swift sunrise signifying a new beginning and hope.
Whenever I read that passage, I well up. I can almost feel the weight being lifted off Frodo's shoulders and the relief he must have felt when seeing Valinor.
It's the same when Sir Ian McKellen delivers this line in TRotK and Billy Boyd's reaction. I can't help but cry.
Honestly the Valar are jerks for letting human sailors find the straight road by accident when they are lost at sea and dying. "We're not going to help you, and we're not going to let you experience the wonderful undying lands untouched by the evils of the world, but we _will_ let you catch a glimpse of that place so you know it exists and that people we like better than you get to live there forever, just before you lose everything including your life." Gee, thanks. 😡
Yeah pretty typical of the Valar tbh
Average Greek god
If anyone could go there valinor will get corroupted
The elves were immortal and had Valinor, but were still bound to the physical world forever until the end of time which Tolkien described as a burden in a way. Men were given by Eru the gift of death which was mysterious, but the Numenoreans began to view it as a curse and envied the elves, things began unraveling for them after.
@@AliAhmed-bu7gp Morgoth the spurce of corruption has been there and Valinor didn't get tainted, your argument is ridicules.
Good video as always. It’s worth mentioning that Roverandom gets a glimpse of Valinor on his way back from the Moon.
Robert, you've left me yearning for a place I cannot go.
Same...
Surprised you didn’t mention Ælfwine, the only human that ever traveled to Eressea and back. He was Tolkien’s original framing device, a human that would slip away to Eressea as described in the Silmarillion and be permitted to come back with a book of lore - essentially the Red Book. Tolkien abandoned the idea in favor of the Red Book of Westmarch framing narrative, so he isn’t ‘canon,’ but it’s interesting that this metaphysics was developed quite early.
Well, when you are building a world for a story, you really should build the world first and the laws that govern it (physics, magic/faith systems, etc.), before you even start writing the plot. Maybe not yet in detail, so that you have still room for storyrelated changes, but the more efford you spend at this stage, the more consistent and full your story will feel and the easier it becomes to write the plot, once you have defined the setting. Building a world like Tolkien did might very well take more time than writing the actual story, but you have the advantage, that once that world is created, you can write any number of stories for this world, while you only have to do the world building part once.
There is no canon, and using this word needs to die. Yes, there is a Legendarium, but there is not "this isn't canon, but this is!" nonsense. it is a real historical and mythological narrative being told via Tolkien after he found the book and translated it into English. Thus, the 'canon' is not known by anyone, not even Tolkien.
Also, do you describe actual history as 'canon?' "This isn't in the historical canon" just sounds like people arbitrarily decide what is and is not a real past event; thus, real history does not have an 'canon.'
@@Daniel-rd6st Tolkien created the languages first, then created the world of his languages to 'live in.'
Id consider languages as part of the worldbuilding aspect, basically everything that isnt strictly storyrelated 🙂 @@pyropulseIXXI
@@pyropulseIXXI agreed, 'canon' is a sloppy word. Given that the entire concept of Ælfwine was dropped from the Legendarium in favor of the Red Book of Westmarch mechanic, I wanted to make clear that he was not part of Tolkien's ultimate vision.
Kinda spooky. We just rewatched the trilogy during our snow induced lockdown, and I was explaining to the wife what the west was, and realized I didn't have a really good handle on it.
And here we are.
You reading my mail? Lol👍
Good stuff as always.
Thank you Robert, that was quite prophetic there at the end, about humans and corners of eyes and perhaps we will get there. Evoked thoughts of the fall of man and eternal life in me.
saruman, in his dispair declares that the ships sailing west will be 'full of ghosts'
So Valinor is in the Unseen Realm, the same dimension where the bodies of the Nazgul existed. Not immaterial as in how angels work but a material dimension more connected to the spiritual, for good and for bad.
Evidence for this would be that the Calaquendi, who saw the Light of the Trees, existed in the Unseen too.
So the Straight Road is part of the Unseen and is a path not only between Arda and Aman but between the Seen and the Unseen worlds.
Those who pass through the Straight Road are fully immersed in the Unseen, not in an unnatural way like the Nazgul but in a Divine way.
The lidless eye flashed violently and Frodo could hear a voice inside his head, as clearly as if its source was right in front of him: "Curvature!? What curvature? Arda is flat, you witless worm!"
Sam shook Frodo out of his trance and gave him time to recover. Surprisingly, Frodo calmed down very quickly and smiled blissfully. Sam was obviously bewildered by this reaction, but Frodo explained what he had just learnt: "Sauron's a fucking moron. Let's get this over with, EZ GG!"
Wonderfully well said. Thank you!
I'm relistening to The Hobbit and LOTR and the Silmarillion. The new readings by Andy Serkis are amazing, he's a wizard of voices. I've just reached the point where Merry and Pippin meet Treebeard, and it made me wonder... Did i miss something in the lore all these years, or do we actually have no account of how hobbits came to be?! I know about elves, men, dwarves, ents, orcs, trolls, dragons and so on, but i can't remember anything about hobbits... 😅
Hobbits are just a subspecies of Men, hence why they live in such close proximity and get along with Men so well.
It's tales like this and how Tolkien left his story that make me wish that someone would be allowed to develop new stories in the Universe. I'm sure many readers and fans of his writing have imagined a modern story, set in our own world where the Old Magic is re-awakened by something dark and foreboding.
The beautiful thing about Toliens writings is that there are things that aren't just clear and open to interpretation, just like Tom Bombadil or the Watcher. Some things just are, like the place Valinor is located.
So what happens with orcs when they die? If they are some kind of perturbed elves, do they also go to the Halls of Mandos? (Also, dwarves, trolls, ents?)
My personal guess would be that likely they go to Halls of Mandos. On the other hand, apparently Uruk-hai were supposed to Orc/Human hybrids so maybe they might have the Gift of Men. I remember it being said that Dwarves at least believed that they have their own section in the Halls of Mandos.
I had always thought of the straight road as being a path that only those immortal beings such as Elves and Maia could navigate. Something along the lines of beings linked through the Song to the very concept of Arda's existence meaning they can still perceive the way West as it originally was, rather than the new shape of Arda after the Sinking of Numenor.
Bravo. So well done. Thank you.
Easy
It's in our minds and hearts 🥰
Of course it makes you wonder where Andilar is and it’s silver ships? (That is a deep cut for those Townes Van Zandt fans)
Plz just keep this up. Awesome content!
I'm surprised you didnt mention Earendil in any way, isnt he the one who found Valinor by luck and sheer determination to find the Valar and ask for aid?
yes, lol. This is super essential to any ponderings, and it is simply ignored
I think Eärendil also had one of the Silmarils and wore it on his brow when he sailed to Aman. I suspect it was instrumental in him being able to reach Aman.
After reading the silmarillion as a kid, I always imagined that middle earth used to be flat and then everything got rolled up into a sphere except the path to Valinor
Thats my understanding too, it’s only after the destruction of numenor that the world is made round and aman is removed. Until that point the world seems to have been flat, so that the path to aman was flat, and when the world was made round the path to aman remained flat thus the straight road and ships disappearing into the horizon rather than drifting down over it.
It has echoes of the Irish myths of Hy Brasil and Tir na Nog, supernatural island realms of everlasting youth and beauty, reached by sailing to the west over the ninth wave magical barrier.
Home to the very elf-like Tuatha De Danaan and occasionally visited by mortal heroes like Ossian.
Turns out Hy Brasil wasn't mythical but a very old remembering, there is a small landmass in the right area that would've been exposed when sea levels were far lower
@@ThailandOutsider Is that something that's known with high confidence or is it an uncertain hypothesis?
@@seneca983 relatively high confidence, given it's appearance on older source maps that also show other supposedly mythical islands that turned out to be real but now submerged by raising sea levels, and that various sea mounts exist in roughly the right place off of Ireland's coast, I'm confident enough to say it was also real. The main point of contention is that there shouldn't have been anyone around able to map it at the time, though that paradigm is beginning to crumble pretty hard these days.
@@ThailandOutsider I'd say just appearance on maps is still very weak evidence. Many old maps have shown landmasses that have been completely non-existent, such as Frisland.
Presumably this Hy Brasil wouldn't have existed anymore when the maps you mention were drawn. Thus they weren't drawn based on actual geographic info in the case of Hy Brasil but just what the cartographers had heard from somewhere. What they have heard can easily be either old stories that originally have some basis in truth or just complete legends with no such basis.
If the only evidence is what you've mentioned so far I would still call it speculative.
@@seneca983 it's not so much that they were just on any old map, the maps some (and I definitely mean some but not all mythical places) of these places show up on maps that date back to the 1400s if not older and have been used as reference for other map makers, these source maps show Antarctica's landmass accurately, 400years before it was discovered and shown as it would have been 10/12000 years ago, along with other now submerged land masses, when sea levels were far lower, hence the mythical folk memory of an island that if sea levels were as low as they were near the end of the ice age, would be there. Like I said the main contention is that it shouldn't have been possible to make maps like that at that time but the maps exist and are authentic so it kinda suggests that someone did. So in my opinion, yes Hy Brasil was a real place and still is, it's just now a submerged sea mont that after alot of time gathered fairytales around it.
Valinor is what we call the moon. Tol eressea is the international space station. Neil Armstrong was actually earendil. Yuri gargarin was actually Tuor.
🤡
So… Cirdan was making spaceships all along
Great video as always! I’m wondering about Penguluin and Aelvine (probably misremembering exact names)…. I think in Morgoth’s Ring it suggests a man went to Tol Eressea in the modern Middle Ages, spoke with Elves, learned of the deep history and then sailed back to Middle Earth and his accounts effectively became the legenderium.
great vid and descriptions reminds me one of my favorite fan fictions on lord of the rings where middle earth was our earth and the hidden world of Valinor and Aman still exist in the present day only after so much time being long forgotten yet still corrupted by their connection to our world and all of its vices has become dark and twisted where once was Valinor now is lost Carcosa and all great magic beings of the old world have grown into eldritch horrors Manwë himself now beyond all recognition twisted and malformed into The King in Yellow :)
I wrote something similar to that concept in my own vast universe; that there was a sort of flat aspect of the world, but only under a perception of special conditions, and in such conditions one could pass over the mythical ice wall and into a mysterious eternal realm many have called Valhalla.
A video on the role of fate in Middle-earth would be a cool topic
I feel the urge to nitpick on Norse hyphenation. It's not bi-frost (as in two-reallycold), but bif-rost or biv-rost, and it meant "the shimmering way".
The way i read it, the world was flat in the beginning and Valinor was an island in the West. But after the war with Morgoth, the world was bent to a sphere except for Valinor. It stayed in the same place and became a sort of moon. That's why it's hard to sail there. The Valar have to make your ship go perfectly straight, above the water and into the sky. The early flat earth is how the two trees could light the whole world.
Great vid, thanks
It's on Venus if you like the Tolkien crossover in Lewis' Space Trilogy. It hints at that strongly at the end and calls it Avallone. People have to be taken there by the eldil/angels.
you could easily explain it in that the whole of the space rock is kept invisible by being completely in and of the spiritual realm of Arda same with the bridge.
When Arda was new it was more like an ellipse than a sphere, so I imagine that it is a flat circle the bisects the spherical world.
Tolkien's genius. He has us trying to describe how one gets to a mystical place of existence after this life. I think he might have said acceptance and faith in The Christ (whoever that may be in Tolkien's books, if there is an equivalent being at all) though obviously, that would have taken us down a much different path. Many fascinating parallels nonetheless.
Never thought of the ships as space ships before. That means Bilbo and Frodo were the first hobbit astronauts.
8:48 this is the key IMO. I'm sure we could construct a theory involving another dimension such that as you move west you also move on a new, 4th, axis that goes "straight" in a higher dimensional geodesic while all of our ordinary physical space curves. But there's no need to, and we're not called on to do so. That the metaphysics is different from that of reality is the point, it should be outside our understanding. Let's not forget that this was all constructed from a Christian theological view point where that things don't make sense and can't be fully understood by mere mortals is a feature, not a bug.
For me Valinor before the Arkansas existed in both Seen and Unseen, and after it was fully submerged in the Unseen.
Evidence for this is Glorfindel and the Ainur having a presence in the Unseen.
Loved this one!
So basically the Undying Lands are in a sort of parallel Earth(Arda) and the straight road is a sort of wormhole.
Wow, this puts a dark spin on Gandalf's speech to Pippen when they were trapped in Minas Tirith.
It seems to be part here and part other side…white shores and a swift sunrise.
Good video. I've heard people call Valinor the afterlife but that doesn't seem to fit. For immortal elves who don't lose their bodies to injury or sorrow [or are re-embodied] they could in theory come and go as did some of the Noldor and Teleri. While our current world may be spherical, maybe Valinor is still part of this world, just as the mesosphere is connected to this earth. I like to think its so connected but separated by a thin difference of vibration, much like we can't see the frequencies that allow us to have cell phones.
Hear me out: If the key to getting to Valinor is using one of the ships that is capable of the journey, what's to stop a stowaway from simply hiding below decks? If I knew that an Elven ship was heading West at a certain time, you bet your last flagon of mead that I'm swimming up the opposite side of the dock and sneaking into the cargo hold.
The way I see it, Arda is essentially a planet, and the undying lands are a bit like a realm that isn't "constrained" to the planet of Arda but is still connected to it, and isn't strictly round, like Arda is. If you can see a round planet with a rectangular addition that can be reached by going true west in a specific kind of boat, that's pretty much how I picture it. There's kind of like a "sea bridge" that isn't "specifically" constrained to typical physics