Why was Morgoth Freed by the Valar? | Lord of the Rings Lore | Middle-Earth
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- Опубликовано: 8 дек 2022
- Why did the Valar free Morgoth? Was Manwe simply naive to trust him or were there deeper reasons behind Morgoth's freedom? And was Eru Iluvatar involved? These questions and more as we explore why the Valar were reluctant to stop Morgoth even though he brought tremendous suffering to the lands and free people of Middle-Earth.
References:
Osanwe - kenta (Vinyar Tengwar 39)
Communication of Thought - Morgoth's Ring
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Развлечения
Hope you guys enjoy this week's video! As always subtitles are available, and feedback / topic recommendations are most welcome! :)
Maybe you could do a video on the Peredhil, half-elven. Explain why only two generations of Elros's kin got the choice, while every one descent from Elrond does. Also, explain Dior. He should be wholly human, since Luthien chose to be counted among Men, for Beren's sake, yet Tolkien allowed her to keep her Elven and Maian qualities. If Dior is indeed a Peredhil, isn't Elwing three-quarters Elven/Maian and a quarter human? I get a headache trying to figure out Tolkien's "fuzzy logic" in regard to the Half-Elves. Please clarify this mess, if you can.
It's chilling to think that any of the Valar could be the next "Melkor." Maybe Manwë foresaw something that no other seen because of his widsom. I like to believe that the Valar didn't want to impose their power against a fellow god, because despite his terrible deeds, Melkor's role was a necesary evil to prevent another terrible dark lord to arise.
Yeah I think we sometimes overlook that they too could be corrupted 😕
Better the devil you know but you still need to know and be prepared.
I just discovered your channel and i find it so impressive that I am willing to share gifts with you, in the form of wisdom and guidance. My first gift to you is the song of MY people, it's about unity and strenght
"Ash nazg durbanduluk ash nazg gimbatul. Ash nazg tharkatuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul"
What generosity 😍
Oh, you are _so_ magnanimous… 🙄
There is no good without evil, no joy without suffering. At least I think so and, perhaps, that was one of messages we can learn from Tolkien.
still sad for the souls who where catched up by his evil never feeling the light of iluvitar , the lands who where destroyed and beings that are gone and still the fear exist that morgoth will free himself on the end of days
I think this is one of my favorite philosophies in Tolkien's work, I think my interpretation is that evil is powerful but inherently self destructive but there is no power in goodness either. But sacrificing compassion under the guise of virtue is where evil resides. It is the commitment to virtue and kindness that eventually leads evil to destroy itself.
Thanks for Morgoth's freedom vid!
You're welcome buddy! 😁
"Sometimes you have to sacrifice a piece or two in order to arrange checkmate. You get all your pieces back in the end." -Tigorious the Victorious Tiger 🐅
I look at this way, Melkor made the choice to be in discord of Eru, to be the antithesis to Eru's thesis, all that Manwe and the rest can do is make the synthesis, for while Eru could just unmake Melkor... it begs the question of why even thought up Melkor and let him spring from his thoughts in the first place. Melkor's purpose was to be the driving force for change and growth. On a different note, without Melkor's release, no Sun and no Sun means no Men, no Men means no full union of the Children (Ainur included) and thus a lesser reshaping when it comes time. It's a baby in the bath water situation.
Well thought through and well researched. Thank you for sharing.
Tolkien wrote none of the other Vala possessed evil. Therefore it was inconceivable to them. Morgoth was stronger than any individual Vala but not against them all. That is why he parlayed his strength by dispensing it into legions of orcs, balrogs and dragons.
The Vala could fight Morgoth but the aggregate sum of evil and good powers could damage, even destroy Middle Earth.
What a great video!! Thank you! Get to watch this video through the weekend!
He did the crime, served his time and now people are questioning the will of the valar?!!?
LOCK HIM UPPPP!!
Short answer?? Yes. To much touchy-feely. Some folks need to be buried and the valar should have reminded Manwe that evil doesn't get cured with time.
Morgoth had completed his sentence so there was no justification for keeping him imprisoned. I think a more interesting question is why the Valar did not detect that Morgoth was not at all redeemed during his time on parole in Valinor.
I think at this point the suggestion should be, "We know he's evil, so SHOULD we let him go?"
Manwe's problem is that he was SO good, the VERY CONCEPT OF "PURE" EVIL was anathema to him; he didn't even BELIEVE the concept existed and Middle Earth has suffered for that blindness ever since.
@@Aequitas_RJ They didn't exactly let him go. He was required to remain in Valinor so the other Valar could watch over him. But he was a master of deceit and managed to manipulate the Noldor, particularly Fëanor, right under the noses of the Valar, even though some were mistrustful of him.
As far as the Valar go, I finally arrived at the conclusion that their "mode" of thinking is so far removed from that of Men and, to a lesser degree, Elves that the Valar have a limited ability to understand the Children of Ilúvatar, who were something Eru Ilúvatar added to the Music of the Ainur on his own and not part of what the Ainur put into the music. Knowing the mind of Eru Ilúvatar best, this was even more true for Manwë, who also served as the intermediary between Eru Ilúvatar and the other Valar and was responsible for ensuring Eru Ilúvatar's will was carried out. The mind of Eru Ilúvatar would have been far more baffling for the Children of Ilúvatar to try and understand.
Furthermore, all of the horrible things that happened began with the Discord of Melkor of which Eru Ilúvatar said to Melkor in the Ainulindalë:
"Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: ‘Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.’"
Hello Carl! Great video👋🏻
First of all, it is not right to question and judge by our human perception why the Valar cannot understand Melkor's evil. Also, the third theme of the Music of the Ainur includes the melody of Melkor. If Manwë had imprisoned him forever in the Halls of Mandos, he would have been acting against the theme of the music and fundamentally against Eru's plan by hindering the history that would be shaped by his attempts. Second, Melkor's plea for forgiveness from the Valar, claiming that he could undo the damage he had done to Middle-earth, is similar to thinking that he would be forgiven by the Valar through his mission to heal Middle-earth during Sauron's repentance after the War of Wrath.
I'm wondering;
Was Sauron a better smith than Fëanor?
Could Fëanor forge the one ring?
Could Sauron forge the Silmarils?
Nice to hear your voice again, Carl (Karl?)
In my opinion, if Morgoth was NEVER pardoned, then evil would still exist, seeing that there was still dragons, and balrogs, and orcs.. Basically the inhabitants of ME would become complacent, and if another dark lord were to arise, the inhabitants would be inept at dealing with evil.. Not only that, but Manwe would lose respect, and authority of being good, and wise and merciful ... and if Morgoth somehow escaped, Middle Earth would suffer even more hardships in the end, seeing Manwe would not have the same respect and leadership to wage war on him, and cast him into the void forever..
Releasing Melkor was the right path not only for the Valar but also for the world of Arda and it's inhabitants. In my point of view if the world would had left Melkor imprisoned then none would had been ready for the events of Dagor Dagorath. As I see it, the end of time would had come to Middle Earth regardless if Melkor would had been denied freedom and by doing that it would had denied the world the hardships, failures and struggles in order to be shaped rightfully in order to overcome the greatest challenge that the world needs to face which is the end of Arda. If the Valar would had denied a world with Melkor's influence then they wouldn't had gotten the rightfull figures that would make the difference in ending Melkor's reign to end and it would had denied the Second Song of Ainur to take place. My conclusion to it is that without good there is no evil and without evil there is no good and without these two you would have a bland world, one without identity, history and emotion and evil, even if it's destructive in nature it needs to exist if we as living beings are to bring the best in us.
Nice....very nice.
Cheers karl
You're welcome man!
Manwe could of stopped millions of deaths by just getting rid of melkor permanently
Perhaps since he hadnt exhausted his spiritual power back then? Melkor could simply reform and return
@@GeekZoneMT iirc, even now he's not necessarily _gone_ per se, merely powerless and banished beyond all hope of return.
ah the problem of evil. Us mortals cannot see to the 'other side' and so the injustices appear final. Tolkien was a Catholic however and even considered death a gift. Still hard to swallow though I agree
I believe that the rest of the Valar were largely incapable of understanding what drove Melkor inexorably towards greater and greater acts of evil & malice, nor of really comprehending the existence of true evil, at least not at that time. All of the Valar were born from different aspects of illuvitar'a own thought and being, each with a very specific set of functions and capabilities. But Melkor was the most powerful, and sharing in all the gifts of his brethren. He, like his creator, desired to create life of his own design and will, above all things. But unlike Eru Illuvatar, he did not possess the power of the Fire Unquenchable, and he never could. Ever. Existing for all eternity with a sickly-sweet taste of true power, but what seemed to be his main purpose was an itch he could never scratch made Melkor very bitter, and increasingly angered ti the point of committing acts of increasingly true evil. Which was his purpose all along.
And all it cost was untold suffering of many people, but then those people are finite, and wouldn't have ever-existed, had it not been for Morgoth anyway, so I guess it's okay? We don't know some things about what goes on outside Arda, but maybe I'd be that little bit happier knowing that a special, "better" place was set aside, for the souls of those people who were ruined by Morgoth, and the only reason given as to why they had to is "because that made the overall creation of Eru Illuvatar 'better'."
Best it will be left him in chains but everyone deserve a chance ! Plus it will be broken promise which leads to "dark melkor route.."
Basically, Tolkien says that Tolkien's perspective is wiser than ours. Manwe my butt. If you publish a story in which a character looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, but 20 years later you write a letter saying that it is foolish to think it was a duck, ... the foolishness is not on the part of the readers.
Where's there's evil will always be evil, Morgoth should never have been released
Yea still though, the choices ofI guess Eru left a lot of the younger beings to suffer for ages. I think thats just as bad as becoming morgoth 2.0
Make a whole video if Morgoth was never pardoned ..
I mean, sure Melkor ushered in his own downfall, but it seems like the Noldor and middle earth were just play things to teach this lesson or achieve some design of Eru. It only makes sense from that kinda Catholic worldview. But without those assumptions, it seems so cruel.
The tragedy of Melkor's Evil ended up producing a greater beauty and Good than Evil had ever imagined. Of course, this is an aspect of Christian (Catholic) theology that Tolkien inserted into the Legendarium:
- Death as punishment and gift of Eru to men. For mankind will have a privilege that not even the elves will have: to stand by God's side after they leave Arda, whether in joy or sorrow;
- Life and death are the Yin and Yang of cycles of creation, destruction and renewal. This prevents the stagnation of life. Can you imagine if everything was perfect and harmonic? I imagine that everything would be tedious and stagnant.
- The arrival of Eru himself to heal the wounds of Evil in the world: Finrod and Andreth's dialogue says that Ilúvatar will enter his work to save his children. Obviously, this is a reference to Jesus Christ. But I think that the Silmarillion itself references an even greater beauty (than the Ainur, than that of the Elves) would come to Arda and "and evil yet be good to have been.’:
"he raised his head, as one that hears a voice far off, and he said: ‘So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been."
This beauty "not before conceived be brought into Eä" is, in my IMHO, a reference to Jesus Christ.
How was Tolkien so wise wtf
An excellent situation to ponder. I personally disagree with giving true evil a second chance. I believe it is God's job to sort things out though. In the case of Manwë, he did as I would expect Jesus to have done in light of God's Will. He, Manwë, turned it over to Eru. He did his part as he was made to do, and Eru's Plan prevailed. So, even though I could not have acted as Manwë did, I understand how it played out and this was a logical means to an end. Though it did not end... exactly.
Interesting. I have always thought that every time Manwë messed up, it was because he did not go directly to Eru (in prayer) to ask him what to do. Of course, Eru's grace is sufficient to cover Manwë's faults, too.
I think Manwë's mistakes can all be attributed to him NOT going directly to Eru Iluvatar (in prayer). This reminds me of me mistakes I have made in my life because I didn't pray before acting on something.
Without the threat of Morgoth, Men would have been nothing more than potential servants to the Eldar in the beginning, and an ever growing threat later. Men would never have been elevated to the height of Numenor and would have been the defacto orcs in later eras.
Geez dude. Narrating is pretty good, as usual, as is the lore.
But what’s will the absolutely terrible background uhm, artwork?
Yipes.
Is this from the local elementary school from the short bus kid’s?
I rarely look at the artwork. Karl's content is what I crave.