Why Didn't the Valar Do More Against Melkor/Morgoth? Middle-earth Explained
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- Опубликовано: 18 ноя 2023
- The Valar were the masters of Arda, yet, when Melkor betrayed them again at the end of the Years of the Trees and the First Age of Middle-earth, they did not attempt to stop him earlier than the War of Wrath. Why? Today we will answer such a question! Thank you all so much for watching, let me know your thoughts on this topic in the comments below! As always, a great thanks to the online artists whose visual works made this video possible! If you are one of the artists, please let me know and I will post your name and a link to your work in this description!
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Развлечения
This seems like a “why not take the eagles” question but excellent work Yoystan
Well this one has more substance to the argument. Their only stated reason was "it would bring destruction"......which they did anyway during the War of Wrath. There is also the issue of Manwe forbeying any of the Valar from directly helping the people middle earth except for Ulmo who actually has an ounce of compassion and empathy.
@@nemisous83 I think it is worth noting that Manwë was also responsible for making the wishes of Eru were followed. It's just a theory but I suspect this helps explain some of the peculiar decisions of the Valar.
I believe it's called the Godzilla Threshold. Like, a situation has to be so ridiculously terrible before a Godzilla fight becomes the better option, so you try EVERYTHING else first. The Valar give the Elves every chance to figure out a way to do it themselves, because as long as the Elves had even an outside chance to fix it on their own, or even if they didn't, as long as they could realistically hide, that was the better option than flattening a huge bit of the planet.
Problem, the Valar doomed the elves with the Doom of Mandos because of the Kinslaying. Galadriel and Celeborn ascertained that fighting Morgoth was in vain under the Doom of the Noldor.
@@MountainFisher I mean yeah, but in all honesty, the Doom and 'you go ahead and fight Morgoth, fight the strongest of the Ainur and his armies, none of us are going to help you' are basically the same statement. Take the Doom away and just have them stay out of it and events go pretty much the same.
@@MountainFisher I disagree. My view is that the Doom of Mandos was not the Valar telling the rebellious Noldor that this was the Valar would bring down on the Noldo, it was telling the Noldor this is what they had brought down upon themselves.
@@istari0 The gates of Hell are locked from the inside, C.S. Lewis
We always bring our curses down upon ourselves. When people ask how can God punish people in Hell? I tell them He doesn't, they do because they cannot stand to be near God. In the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus notice the rich man never asks to be let out of Hell.
Except eru chides manwe for waiting. The true answer is because manwe is a vain douchebag and didn't like that his favorite toys didn't want to stay with him in a prison forever
I imagine it's like that bit in Futurama when God tells Bender that when you truly help, no one knows you helped at all. How many small acts changed the First Age, a mist from Ulmos river saved Hurin and Huor and that was important, the eagles of Manwe finding Beren and Luthien and bringing them to safety.
They kind of had their hands full with doing sod all
I think this makes perfect sense for Morgoth. I'm more interested in why the Valar didn't do more to deal with Sauron. He was just a Maia; there was no risk of nuking the planet in them dealing with him. And it isn't like he was the product of the Children of Illuvitar; he was 100% the Valar's mess to clean up. Yet all they did was send a few underlings and restrict their power to make it harder for everyone.
At least they could have sent gandalf with an army of elves back.
The Valar wanted Sauron to build them an army worthy of Valinor to fight against Morgoth in the Last Battle. which he succeeded in doing this. Sauron built an army so great that he saw in the Valar's eyes the same fear that would take the heart of him. That army was the army of the Men of the West. 😁
Not to mention that the last time they interfered in the affairs of the world... Beleriand sank.
And the next time they'd intervene (Dagor-Dagarath) Arda itself was completely destroyed.
Valarian negligence, like our judgments of our own mortal parents, can be tempered by the limitations of each Person's disposition and experience. The Valar had no prior generation to set an example for them, except the Music itself. And they each had their own weakness or blindspot. Their failures are inevitable, despite their power and intentions, these junior gods are not infallible.
I think that's pretty much it. The Valar were afraid of the globe-busting possibilities of a direct confrontation with Morgoth and held back at least until his battles with the Noldor and Men had caused him to dissipate his power to manageable levels. Furthermore the Noldor had made their fate by means of their oaths and actions, and the Valar may have been constrained to let that play out.
It's explicitly stated by the Valor that there war with Melkor risked the Elves since they didn't know where they would awaken, and given that when they did finally get involve, a sizeable chunk of an entire continent - Beleriand - was destroyed so comprehensively it sank into the Ocean, it was a bloody good job they didn't. The children of ilúvatar have no business being in the middle of a war between Gods.
Yes, the awakening place of the Elves - Cuivienen (sp?) was also destroyed in the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age.
There may be several reasons for the Valar's unresponsiveness:
1) They fear that the Children of Ilúvatar and the possible regions they will live on Arda will be harmed as a result of causing great damage to the geography in every intervention they make against Melkor on Arda.
2) A result of the insight they felt from the Music of the Ainur
3) They know that the struggle of Elves and Men against Melkor is their test on this world (This may be related to reason (2).)
Other than Ulmo, the Valar DID remain completely inactive until Earendil turned up in Valinor - and then they wanted to KILL Earendil - though they NEVER WOUND Morgoth....
The Valar weren't long on forgiveness - I suppose when you're immortal you can hold a grudge for a long time. The elves who returned after the War of Wrath weren't ever allowed to live permanently on the mainland again, although they could visit...
To be fair, the Valar did wound Morgoth's pride.
@@davidandrews2972 Morgoth's victims were not only the Noldor who followed Feanor's lead. They included the Dwarves and the Second Children of Illuvatar and the Elves who had refused to move to Valinor. So what had they done wrong that they NEEDED the forgiveness if the Valar?
@@michaelodonnell824 The Valar are what's known as "neglectful precursors," and to be fair Tolkien alludes to this in one of his letters, by saying that they came close to making Valinor a fortress of light and leaving the rest of the world to it.
It's biblically accurate punishment.
Like how men died if they touch holy objects without permission or enter a sacred place improperly.
@@michaelodonnell824
Valar are like sort of the admins/moderators of the world, will not act unless absolutely necessary haha
People will say “Oh, if the Valar intervened then they would destroy Beleriand because they were too powerful”, but this is nonsense. Ulmo helped several times, and even provides Tuor with a Valarian Artefact (an invisibility cloak!). Maybe Manwe and the rest of them couldn’t DIRECTLY attack Morgoth, but the fact that none of them (except the CHAD Ulmo) could be bothered to subtly manoeuvre events in favour of the Free People really is an inditement of them. (And Ulmo seems to agree, considering he kept trying to covncine the Valar to help the free peoples, and when they couldn’t be bothered he said “fine I’ll do it myself”.) As you can probably tell, I am a huge fan of Ulmo.
Ulmo is the man-er i mean vala lol
Can we all agree the valar suck….ulmo not included
There are definitely examples of the other Valar subtly intervening. Manwe and his eagles is first to come to mind. Firstly in rescuing Maedhros. Other examples include the rescue of Hurin and Huor, and the guarding of Gondolin.
@killgriffinnow Are you a fan of Thanos as well? Because you did quote him. 😆
@@shawn092182 thanos was right
I love that tolkien actually gas ab answer for this rather than like a "mysterious ways" or something like that. Its just them being thoughtful of the distruction they'd cause to mortals
Its kinda silly though as Manwe's ban on the Valar wasn't just direct involvement but also helping and aiding the children of illuvitar...Ulmo helping the Noldor, Tuor, and Elwing was not at all sanctioned by Manwe.
The Valar were lazy, vindictive, and petty. They were so bent on punishing the Noldor that they willfully ignored the wellbeing of the Sindar, Men, and Dwarves. It makes no sense that such beings couldn't come up with even a low-key strategy to help the peoples of Middle-earth. Morgoth had renegade Maiar in his service, who served as his heavy artillery against the armies of the Children. The Valar *could* have balanced the scales by sending their own Maiar to Middle-earth (and convincing Melian to not leave by promising a swift reincarnation of Thingol). Instead, they selfishly focused on defending Aman and leaving all the Children in Middle-earth to fight a losing war. Yes, Beleriand was destroyed in Morgoth's defeat. But that is *nothing* compared to what would have happened to Middle-earth and everyone in it had Morgoth *won!*
Even the Elven loremasters' opinions are varied
@@celestialhylos7028 - Because the Elves are not a unified people and thus viewpoints will differ. For example, the Sindar and Silvan Elves had excellent reasons to hate the Noldor, who came into their lands after slaying their kin in Valinor and then started declaring themselves kings in Middle-earth. Didn't help that the sons of Feanor were going around murdering anybody that came into contact with a Silmaril.
Meanwhile, the Noldor saw themselves as heroes fighting against Morgoth because the Valar refused to do so.
Hardly a surprise that loremasters would have differing opinions. It's not unlike how some people IRL try to talk about "European history" as if Europe were a single nation and culture.
That may have well been the thought process of the Valar but I would have to say it was a mistake. Allowing Morgoth to escape to Beleriand gave the Dark Foe the time to resume leadership over Sauron, the Balrogs, and any other Maiar servants he had, build up great armies of Orcs and Trolls and develop Dragons. If he hadn't been given that time, I think he would have been defeated much earlier and with much less bloodshed and destruction.
They didn't let the Elves and Men fight against Morgoth - they left the Elves and Humans and other living beings suffer an die, while they partied on Valinor - singing, dancing and utterly ignoring the misery THEIR Negligence caused - It was the decision of the Valar to FREE Morgoth - and having freed him, they failed utterly to police or control him, until he attacked the Two Trees and murdered Finwe -
But hey, the Valar are "Good" aren't they....
Exactly.
Man Mellon, at least they arrived at the perfect timing...
Between them vs The Eternals in the MCU, *still haven't seen it* The Valar did stop Melkor after Arda was Settled In at the end of thr First Age!!!
Thanks Mellon for a Thoughtful Video on why didn’t do more against Melkor, Until's Saurman's Power Level...Marion Baggins Out!!!
*I may edit this comment later*
I believe there's several reasons, with the first and most obvious being the destruction that could befall the World if they intervened. But also, as you mentioned in the video, the Valar were most certainly not unanimous in their decisions. For example, when Manwë anounced the Battle of the Powers, Tulkas was glad, but Aulë was saddened realizing much would be destroyed. So while some of them cared about the destruction and wanted to avoid it, others may have not cared at all, or at least seen it as a necessary and lesser evil to overthrow Morgoth. Maybe for the longest time the former were the majority, and Eärendil finally "converted" most to the latter group.
I think they also may have changed their minds about the Children of Ilúvatar after having brought the Elves to their home. See how Ulmo had wanted the Elves to stay in Midle Earth and rule their own lives while the other Valar wanted to bring them in, and afterwards Ulmo would directly involve himself with the Children while the other Valar kept their distance.
There's also a bit of a downside to directly interfering with the Children of Ilúvatar that I never see anyone mention. The Silmarillion states that Men are completely free from the fate "prescribed" in the Ainulindalë (last two pages or so of Ch1: of the Beginning of Days). If the Valar have no power over death, as stated in the Akallabêth, they should have no power over this freedom of fate. Now, when Ulmo speaks with Tuor, he tells him he was chosen from before his birth, and we know he chose him when his father Huor was a child (meaning he chose the son of a man who wasn't even married yet), and after their encounter Tuor was always drawn to the sea and even said to become immortal; if death is part of Men's freedom, which again, is a statement from Ilúvatar Himself, then Tuor was completely deprived of it since before he was even conceived, or thought about by his own parents. Other Valar (although quite possibly not *all* the other Valar) may have not wanted to interfere because they weren't ok with the aftereffects of interacting with Men, who are far different from them than the Elves. In that they could be divided like with the destruction ordeal.
Again, like you mentioned in the video, the Valar had other duties. The Feanturi, for example, are completely occupied: Mandos is the warden and judge of the Dead, which includes the souls of Men in their trajectory to their mysterious afterlife. Vairë weaves the history of the World, Nienna consoles the Deceased, and Irmo apparently makes people's dreams. Although it is never explicitly stated, it is safe to say Manwë controls the weather, just like Varda controls the Sun and Moon and other celestial objects, and we all know Ulmo controls water. The Valar may not be actual gods, but they are divine beings with power over the World, and they certainly act like gods in some matters. They probably have some mystical abilities through which they can interact with the people indirectly (let's say, for example, Yavanna's blessings will give you a good harvest, but she doesn't need to physically be there to bless your crop). I think a lot of fans forget that, even if the Valar aren't gods, they are at least supposed to feel like gods, so they're more like personifications of the elements than people. So even while they're not going to war against Morgoth they are doing something for the people, even if that something isn't super direct and explicit, or the center point of the story.
Perhaps the Valar feared that fighting Morgoth directly might break the planet, especially knowing of Morgoth's Ring...
Well "Morgoth's ring" is more of a metaphor not an actual thing. It's saying that since Morgoth had so much to do with the shaping and marring of Arda that it sort of is his own ring of power though metaphorically speaking not literally as Arda doesn't keep Morgoth's spirit alive
@@nemisous83 It's more real than that. Morgoth actually poured most of his inherent power into corrupting the substance of Arda. Even as powerful as he originally was, he could only do so much but nonetheless he damaged the entire world outside of Aman.
@@istari0 yes but like I said it's essentially a metaphor. If Morgoth had dominion over Arda or even middle earth then the forces of good would never have been able to oppose him nor would anything be able to grow or live due to said corruption. When Morgoth was cast through the Door of Night his spirit left Arda. The destruction and shape of Arda is just a reminder of his influence not evidence of direct control.
Regarding the point about the Valar "seeing" that it was fate for the Children to be humbled by Morgoth, Tolkien actually says the opposite. The original intention was for the Ainur and the Children to dwell together in middle earth, however the Valar basically became both too complacent in the peace of Valinor and also did not trust in Eru enough to actually take the fight to Melkor.
*Morgoth's Ring:*
"Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwe that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it."
*A version of the above is also in Nature of Middle Earth: Elvish Reincarnation:*
"Eru accepts and ratifies the position - though clearly he thinks the Valar should have contested Melkor’s domination of Middle-earth earlier, and made it “safe for the Elves” - they had not enough _estel_ [‘trust’] that in a _legitimate_ war Eru would not have allowed Melkor to so damage Arda that the Children could not come, or live in it."
*Nature of Middle Earth also says this (also published earlier in Parma Eldalamberon #17):*
"But there was thus introduced an element of uncertainty into all their operations after the Coming of the Elves and Men. The wills and desires and the resultant deeds of the Elves remained forever in some measure unpredictable, and their minds not always open to admonition and instruction that was not (as was forbidden) issued as commands supported by latent power. This was even more evident in the case of Men, either by their nature, or by their early subjection to the lies of Melkor, or by both. It was also held by some that the Valar had even earlier failed in their “trials” when wearying of their destructive war with Melkor they removed into the West, which was first intended to be a fortress whence they might issue to renew the War, but became a Paradise of peace, while Middle-earth was corrupted and darkened by Melkor, long unopposed. The obduracy of Men and the great evils and injuries which they inflicted upon themselves, and also, as their power increased, upon other creatures and even upon the world itself, was thus in part attributable to the Valar. - not to their wilful revolt and pride, but to _mistakes_ which were not by design intended to oppose the will of Eru, though they revealed a failure in understanding of His purposes and in confidence in Him.
"This is said because the invitation given to the Eldar to remove to Valinor and live unendangered by Melkor was not in fact according to the design of Eru. It arose from anxiety, and it might be said from failure in trust of Eru, from anxiety and fear of Melkor, and the decision of the Eldar to accept the invitation was due to the overwhelming effect of their contact, while still in their inexperienced youth, with the bliss of Aman and the beauty and majesty of the Valar. It had disastrous consequences in diminishing the Elves of Middle-earth and so depriving Men of a large measure of the intended help and teaching of their “elder brethren”, and exposing them more dangerously to the power and deceits of Melkor. Also since it was in fact alien to the nature of the Elves to live under protection in Aman, and not (as was intended) in Middle-earth, one consequence was the revolt of the Noldor."
"This is not our war."
It's clear they knew more about the overall outcome than men or elves. Having a direct line of communication with the maker of the world definitely helps. But the children can't grow strong if everything is done for them. Would it b easier for the Valar to help? Yes, but it wouldn't b right
The problem is that the whole mess was caused by them. They allowed Melkor to flee from Arda while they were building it, they didn't look for Melkor after he destroyed the Two Lamps, they only went after him when the latter had already created the orcs, and they bought into his lies and released him.
Melkor was the second strongest being on existence, and they expected for the Elves, Dwarves and Men to deal with him? Just to defeat a single Balrog took a lot of effort!
@@lisboah: Absolutely. The Valar are to blame for everything since they released Melkor from imprisonment. So they should have taken responsibility for pursuing him after he corrupted most of the Noldor and destroyed the Two Trees. Just dealing with Sauron was a big enough problem for the Elves, never mind Melkor himself.
Well the Valar were wise but they weren't really acting on the will of Eru per say. By this same line of thinking Ulmo was acting against the will of Eru when he helped the Noldor, Tuor, and Elwing.
They bought into Melkor deceit and set him free and when the Noldor went to finish what they should have they damned them even those who didn't take part in the kinslaying all because they decided to leave Aman
That would make sense if it was evil Men or Elves they were fighting. But it was not, it was one of the Ainur, taking out Melkor and later Sauron should have been their war.
@@nemisous83 Yeah, let's not forget that thousands of innocents suffered and died because of a curse that was cast hundreds of years before they were even born. And they all suffered because Feanor wanted to go after the guy that murdered his father, a guy that the Valar set free.
Just look at Maeglin. The poor guy was most likely doomed to betray Gondolin even before he was actually conceived.
Using the Valar to fight Morgoth is much like the nuclear option, you wouldn't want to take it unless you know the other side is completely indominable and set out for destruction. The war of wrath definitely reasserted the Valar's fears over their own power and the regret of using said power that left the world so scared wretched that a whole section was sunk in the process, it also helps explain why the Valar didn't intervene with Sauron (the Valar probably understood as well that Elves, Men and Dwarves could resist on their own in open combat as they did originally in the 3rd age before Sauron played essentially the espionage game on Numenor.) and why the Maiar that were sent to assist the west we're so dummed down in power, not just out of fear of corruption but fear of what that power even if used correctly might taint the world with if it came to blows with Sauron.
The Dagor-Dagarath reaffirms this I believe because its only after Melkor returns and when he brings out the possible destruction of the world the Valar intervene causing the destruction of all of creation before Eru Iluvatar summons the second music of the Ainur with the children of Iluvatar included.
Calling Vala negligent is an understatement. Guess that was Eru’s choice
Perhaps the actions of Feanor created a problem for the Valar, in that they could not allow the Elves to assume that they would be follow their impetuous actions. It would have given Feanor a truly dangerous sense of his own influence.
As if he wasn’t dangerous enough already!
Certainly was, and not just to himself and his kin. @@timonsolus
I just asked myself the question yesterday when I started the chapter about the attack of Morgoth on Beleriand! Great timing :)
I puzzled over this as a kid in the late 70s and early 80. And then a non-Christian, unlike Catholic Tolkien. I settled on the fact that in the early times, and even to some degree on, the Valar were "unfallen," they had no frame of reference for what "evil" or "marring Arda" meant.
With Tulkas and Ulmo relatively active participants in co-creation, they seemed to grasp what Melkor was up to first; Manwe comes across as astonishingly clueless, but again: I think he didn't even know what "evil" was; it was outside his wheelset.
Unlike in our world, with the War in Heaven happening first, the Valar were blindsided and, once in the world and in time, had to learn.
I think it's a bit silly to say that the creation of the sun and moon was to help the Noldor when in reality it was just them trying to fix their predicament of not having any light source in Arda. The only Valar who actually cared about the people's of middle earth was Ulmo aside from that the Valar were more than content with leaving Melkor to wreak havoc on Middle Earth so long as their lands weren't affected. Just like Manwe couldn't comprehend evil most of the Valar were apathetic towards anything outside Aman.
Love the vids related to Melkor
There is an inevitable "in-lore vs out-of-lore" aspect to considering this, and you considered it as well as one could, I think. This whole angle on looking at Tolkien's works runs butt up against the fact that he built it with apologetics for christian cosmology/theology in mind. In that, it basically exposes the inherent assholery of judeo-christian-islamic monotheistic philosophy. Ultimately, the character Eru didn't care how much his creations suffered, so long as it proved that he was the big sky-daddy in the end. You just have to love the storytelling for its own sake, even as it takes place within that tragic frame of reference.
The weird truth is that if there was no Great Evil in the environment, there would be no story about overcoming it; and that struggle is symbolic of the effort that must be put in by each of us if we are going to rise above our own corrupt or selfish impulses. That's why I love how you finish by summing up the virtues and principles embodied in each of these video topics, because ultimately that is what matters. The true battle is often what we must face within ourselves.
Of course, because some people fail to win that struggle (or even try), they do become greatly evil; and then, eventually, it does take the forces that guard the good to take them out of the picture. Unfortunately, we can't identify the criminals until they actually start committing crimes, and then it takes some time to mount an intervention. Politics tends to complicate and extend the gap between recognizing the threat and actually being allowed to stop it. It's called "due process." Without due process, the guardians themselves may become the greatest tyranny.
The Valar didn't go to war with Morgoth immediately after the murder of the Two Trees, et al, primarily because humans were about to be born at some random place out in the world, and the Valar couldn't risk at that time the cataclysmic continent-destroying conflict required to bring Morgoth to heel. Morgoth chose the timing of the culmination of his poisoning of the hearts and minds of the Noldor very well, he knew the gods wouldn't risk accidentally snuffing out the second Children of Iluvatar.
Manwe could simply have asked Eru. "Hey, we're about to deal with Morgoth. If you tell us where these Men are going to appear we can avoid killing them."
@@disgruntledtoons He tried, no specific reply.
Eru: "Are you out of your mind? Melkor has spies everywhere. You messed up one time already when you let Melkor corrupt my first born. If I tell you where my favorite children are, he's going to corrupt them as well, especially when he's got a head start on you."
(Right before the drowning of Numenor)
Eru: 🤦♂️ "I see that you have once again demonstrated your incompetence to rule Eä, allowing Melkor's influence to corrupt my favorite children. This will be the last time that I bail you out. I knew I should've put Ulmo in charge instead of you."
🤣🤣🤣
Why didn't Tulkas carry the one ring to Mordor?
To be clear he probably wouldn't even need to carry it. Man could just three point it into the crack of doom from Rivendell
No need. If Mount Doom can undo the ring, so can, not Tulkas perhaps, but Aule - wherever he happens to be. He doesn't need a volcano to do so.
But "those who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it; for good or ill, it belongs to Middle Earth".
Probably for sort-of the same reason why Gandalf flat-out refused to be of any assistance to the hobbits in the specific matter of dealing with Lotho Sackville-Baggins and a very cunning, tyrannical scoundrel by name of Sharkey. (I did not say "wizard" or "Saruman" because Sharkey did not use specific wizard-powers; these things Gandalf probably *would* have considered his job.) "You can do this on your own; do it."
That would be a bad idea. Just imagine the Valar that single handedly took out Melkor corrupted by evil while being drastically amped up.
@@shawn092182 The valar should be immune to the ring, simply because the rings power is Sauron's. And The valar are all above the power of any Maia, including sauron and the ring. However other Maia, such as gandalf, Saruman, the eagles, as well as any being lesser than them are susceptible to the corruption of the ring
@hibob1321 They have the power to overcome the will of Sauron, but there's no evidence that they are immune to the corruption of evil that the ring holds. We've seen numerous times of powerful beings losing to lower tier beings. Even Morgoth came close to losing against Fingolfin.
thanks Yoystan!
I feel like their non-interventionist policy is scuttled by the Doom of Mandy's which reads as the Valar actively forsaking the Noldor to Morgoth. It'd be one thing if they just let them figure out Middle-eartg in their own. But they let them go into a hopeless war and seemed to have a role in making it more hopeless. They never once took any blame for what happened. Feanor have them a convenient out.
Was expecting to hear more relating to this from Iluvatar:
Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.
Great video, as always! Would love if the videos had credit for the individual artists on each image.
Sometimes the Valar seem very stupid to me. Coming to Arda and then discover Eru's plan step by step, for instance how it is their job to create Arda further. I wonder why they did not ask for proper instructions. But that is probably just me.
THank you for your amazing work. I love to learn about Middle Earth, Númenor, and the other parts of Tolkien's world and you do a great job providing the information. God bless you.
They only saw a glimpse of Eru's plan and didn't fully understand it.
It seems to me that the Valar missed an opportunity to capture or slay Morgoth directly following his duel with and wouncing by Fingolfin.
''With great power comes great responsibility ''
I think the fact that the valar were partying when Erendil arrived speaks against any good will or care for beleriand. Moreover, if taken as pattern and chaon of events, I think its likely that they had ptsd from almaren, since they were even slow to act before the war of the powers. The majority of them stay in valinor during the peace when that time could have been used to spread the light of the trees across middleearth and hunt down any remaining evil creatures that yet remained. And, that dwarves and men had nothing to do with why the noldor were beefong with morgoth also I think puts a wrench in their overall care. Essentially, they were too scared by their past and too comfortable trying to hold on to what was left rather than caring for middlearth as a whole.
Eru is side eyeing the Valars.
In other words, the "nuke" option should be a last resort type of option.
Great video as always, thanks.
But they could've just dropped a smart bomb on him. One Tulkas aimed straight at Melkor alone.
It is made clear in the Silmarillion that the Valar didn't want to cause the upheaval and destruction on the land that thier intervention came with. Example, The sinking of Beleriand.
You should do a video about what would happen if Saruman accepted Gandalf’s act of mercy after the downfall of Isengard!
Ah, Yoystan... time to sit back and listen with my imagination.
The war of wrath shows why, the land below will be annihilated. This is why the Istari are sent and not to display their powers (physical). It would be too much for non valar
I think the Valar always underestimated the work of evil and didn't really want to do anything as a group outside Aman. There were a few Valar who seemed to have more care for the events outside Aman, particularly Ulmo, but he seemed in the minority and I guess did not to act openly in a way counter to the consensus. The underestimation of evil includes basically letting Sauron go unchecked for pretty much all the Second Age which clearly lead to the destruction of Númenor and the next intervention by the Valar.
In my opinion, the Valar were awful guardians of Middle-earth for dramatic reasons and not much else. I also think they had a bias against all creatures outside of the elves who they clearly spent the most time with among the creatures of Eä, which led them to a blind spot for all else.
Okay, but the true question is: why the Valar didn't intervene against Sauron in the Second Age? They knew that he was the main servant of Morgoth and his successor as Dark Lord. The official chronology say that Sauron settled in Mordor around 500 SA, begint to build Barad-Dur around 1000 and complete it around 1600. And if Manwe is all-seeing, I suppose that he sees that. Remember that, at this time, Valinor was still in the material world. So, why the Valar didn't intervene to stop the new Dark Lord, before he committed new deceptions and destruction?
Sauron was only a Maia (although perhaps the most powerful one) not one of the Valar like Melkor. So perhaps the Valar thought that it would not be right for them to make war on a being weaker than themselves. Instead they eventually sent 5 other Maiar, the 5 Wizards, to combat Sauron.
@@timonsolus Sauron may be weaker than the Valar, but he was still stronger than the Free People of Middle Earth. And when he began to enslave and exterminate them, the Valar should've been intervene. The Istari was send only in the Third Age, but the intervention from Valinor was necessary back in the Second Age.
@@parmandil594 : That’s true, the Istari should have been sent much earlier.
Also, the last time they actually engaged in battle with him was the War of the Powers. The War of Wrath was *not* ; they sent a host led by Eonwe and chiefly apparently consisting of the Vanyar and those Noldor that had stayed in Aman (ferried by the Amanyar Teleri, who did not wish to fight for the perpetrators of the Kinslaying though). It did include Maiar, no doubt, for instance Eonwe; also Eagles; but no Vala. (Must have been a strange feeling for a Tulkas or an Orome to be left behind). Afterwards, Eonwe apparently even did the judicial business, save for Sauron and perhaps a few others whom, with them being of his own rank, he was supposed to refer to his masters.
I do imagine them to personally take part in throwing Morgoth through the Door of Night (was he brought to Aman by the Maiar for the purpose? did they step across the sea just briefly for that?), but during the war they did not engage personally.
And considering that even without that, the war was devastating enough for the Earth that Beleriand was flooded for good, one might perhaps see why.
This is perhaps where Tolkien's firsthand view of how the battlefields of the First World War *looked like* afterwards might have come in. As for the in-world perspective, one does start to wonder how the lands looked like before the War of the Powers, when the changes made them think "let's not do this again".
Thx !
I think the Valar, in their haste to punish the exiles, also shot themselves in the foot by saying no direct help will be sent until the elves had shed tears unnumbered, but they did help indirectly. Manwe sent the Eagle to rescue Meadhros, Ulmo advised Finrod and Turgon on hidden kingdoms and Orodreth about the bridge. I just wonder what would have happened if the Eagles of Manwe had attacked Morgoth's army on the on the third day after the Feanorians arrived and Angband was emptied to counter them and before Uldor acted?
The Valar learned consequences of direct intervention hard way.
Those lazy bums just didn't want to wrangle their jerk brother... well, except Tulkas.
Thanks you
In the accursed 'rings of powers' there is a short Ecton in ep1 depicting the war of wrath. This has always fascinated me cause it involves so many important individuals and creatures, resulting in Melkors defeat. Little is said in the original sources of Tolkien but my question is.
How would you write the war of wrath. From begginibg to end. A detailed chapter depicting as uch as possible. Love you attention to detail and story telling so I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
I usually hide behind the religious ramifications of it; God DOES allow Evil into the world, and he expects us to deal wirh it. Angels won't swoop down, with their majesty, and save us, to then leave us to our own devices until the next time. If we expect to be masters of our own fates, WE need to be the ones to do it. Also, I'm not sure the Valar were intended to safeguard the world. Someone builds me a house. They don't then reserve the right to come in, and change things to their preferences, as they see fit. They built it for me, and handed it to me, for my own use. The Valar did help shape Middle Earth, but not to dwell in it themselves. They made it for Men, Elves, and Dwarves, and it fell to them to shape it further, and help it assume it's proper form. That Melkor refused to step away, and let the world be as intended, is part of his crime, and he was punished for it. The Valar had played their part, and it was time to let the Children have their turn, and grow.
Lastly, and this is where I get back to evolution, I feel that Eru intended Morgoth to do what he did, for what else could Morgoth do? Illuvatar Himself said as much; "you can only do as I will, and any effort to the contrary will only be revealed as my intent, in a plan greater than you ever envisioned." For life to grow, and evolve, there has to be conflict; a motivation to change, and improve. This is less so for Elves, who seemed made for a more static, consistent, and slower world, and they suffered, but it was this evil that allowed others to better themselves; to hone their gifts, and without it, their existence would have been empty. The destructive fires of Morgoth were also the flames that heated the shapeless steel that was the Children, and permitted them to take on their intended forms. For the Valar to take that away, would have been to stunt the destinies of the Children, as well as deny them the chance to choose their own paths.
When Morgoth fought Fingolfin, the swings of his hammer Grond left CRATERS on the earth! Now imagine not just Morgoth, but ALL the valar at war. The world would’ve been destroyed indeed.
Isn’t it a stated rule that the more “powerful” something on the forces of good is the more worthless they are at doing anything substantial.
Personally, I think pretty much all Feanor's shit was forgivable/excusable, up until the Kinslaying, and then the Valar were like "No."
Agreed. The Kinslaying wasn’t even necessary - Feanor and the Noldor could have reached Middle Earth without the ships of the Teleri, as demonstrated by Fingolfin and his followers, who crossed the Helcaraxë, the Grinding Ice, in the far north, where Valinor and Middle Earth were separated only by a frozen narrow sea.
We have to see this angle: As all the valar, Melkor sang in the music of the ainur, and his dissonase was the evil that will came in the future, challenging to Eru himself, so for good or evil, the presence and actions of melkor were entangled with the song of the rest valar, and was a written destiny, which is quite common on tolkiens works.
Manwe knocked down the first domino by not understanding evil. The Valar seem to be sleep at the wheel when it comes to protecting the children of Illuvatar.
Sometimes your children have to stand and be allowed to walk and face the world.
I would say they wanted the elves to stay in valinor in safety. However that would not stay that way.
What if Fingolfin killed Morgoth or at least destroyed his Body by beheading him in their Duel?
The Valar created the children of Eru to create their own future. Only when Melkor was powerful enough to destroy the children of Middle Earth did they do something. Follows the logic of the Valar.
What do you all expect?
A thousand years saga about how the Valar keep shooting fireballs and turbolaser at The Enemy while the Children of Eru live happily under the shield dome of Melian? ???
Definitely not a boring story
If Feanor and the Noldor had done Nothing, neither would the Valar.
While the Silamrillion focuses an enormous amount of attention on the High Elves and later the Noldor, we need always remember that the vast majority of the Elves did NOT journey to Valinor. When Morgoth escapes, he can only be going to Middle Earth (there is literally nowhere else for him to go) yet no attention of the Valar is given to the innocent lives in Middle Earth who they must know will, sooner or later, be destroyed by a Vala - one they have NO POWER to oppose - Yet the Valar have no problem living happily in Valinor while the Peoples of Middle Earth (which actually by now incudes Humans - born with the rising of the First Sun) become the victims of their "Brother"....
Actually, the Noldor were more numerous than the Vanyar and the Teleri in Valinor.
I wasn't referring to the Elves that eventually arrived in Valinor.
I was talking about the far more numerous Elves, Dwarves (and soon) Humans abandoned by the Valar in Middle Earth...
There is only one reasonable answer.
Mandos said no.
NGL
the Noldor indeed had a chance to defeat Morgoth if they didn't keep bickering among themselves
Truth is, imagine they all just went to middle earth straight away and fucked up morgoth, we wouldn’t have so many amazing stories.
Other than the kinslaying, feanor had the right of it. Valar incompetence was at the root of the problem.
Wow first lol. Can't wait to finish the video.
There is the matter of free will: the Noldor chose to return to middle earth and fight (and be killed by) Morgoth. The elves who remained in middle earth in turn chose not to go to the sanctuary of Valinor. The Valar offered them a peaceful existence, but the elves did not accept their offer. The elves are free to make their own mistakes.
There is also the matter of faith. The valar knew that Melkor would not win. LotR shows that even if evil reigns supreme militarily, Eru will ensure his will is done. The Valar do not need to be the final guard against darkness.
There is the risk that competing in war with Melkor, the Valar might become the thing they seek to oppose. Fëanor and the Noldor fell. Saruman fell. Sauron himself was hinted at being genuinly repented after the War of Wrath, but chose to 'fix' middle earth by imposing his will on it first. The Valar, despite making some mistakes, remain Good, sinless and the force that opposes Darkness. There is power in pity and restraint and not just in stiving to destroy your enemy.
Interestingly, in Morgoth's Ring, Manwë consults with Eru after the war of the Powers. Eru's response: "making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's dominion of Middle Earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel [hope/faith] that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor to damage Arda that the Children could not inhabit it"
But in unfinished tales, the Istari, it is said:""For with the consent of Eru, they send members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to thirst and be slain, though because of their noble spirits they did nto die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emisarries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power...".
So does Eru want the Valar to engage with Melkor in combat or does he want them to take advisary roles instead?
What book is Morgoth's ring in? That's one I've missed and it sounds like one I need for my collection and much-read copies of LOTR lore.
I'm one of the Valar and one of the younger sons of Fingolfin
For that matter, a question: rather than take a Silmaril, could Beren have ended Morgoth's life with a sword, as we imagine Turin Turambar will in the Dagor Dagorath?
Well he wouldn't have "killed" Morgoth he would have just destroyed his physical body. Maia and Valar are spirits that take token bodies so they can interact inside Arda. It's the same way destroying sauron's body didn't destroy his spirit until the destruction of the one ring which was effectively his spirit made tangible.
So the Valar didn't want to bring desolation to Arda if they were going after Morgoth? The problem is that they did it anyway. Beleriand sank to the bottom of the ocean. They should have marched while Angband was being besieged for 400 years. If they had done so, the damage to Middle-Earth would have been contained.
I have always wondered if this was the only group of Valars or were there many more of them?
No these were the Valar in their entire whole. However there were many more Maiar that Tolkien never mentioned.
There are 14 gods (Valar), and many thousands of angels (Maiar).
@@LordTelperion Correct. Also the Valar are equivalent to Archangels and the Maiar to Angels.
In the end it was always going to come down to the Valar coming in and the ruination of Beleriand in their defeat of Morgoth. Nobody ever had a chance with Hurin and the house of Hador running around bringing the doom laid upon them by the Dark Lord. His curse upon them always meant that wherever they went, that place would eventually be laid low by the forces of Morgoth. The only way to defeat the God deemed mighiest among them you had to bring the whole rest of the lot to bear. And with Beleriand already basically rolled over they could just go scorched Earth and stomp his darkness back into the deepest part of the hole he issued from. Then just sink the whole thing under the ocean and wash it all away like nothing was ever there west of the Blue Mountains.
The Valar could've stopped Morgoth before he cursed Hurin.
"The only way to defeat the God deemed mightiest among them you had to bring the whole rest of the lot to bear."
Nope. All you need is Tulkas, Champion of the Valar. He did once, he can do it again.
@@shawn092182 maybe just Tulkas for the one on one with Morgoth but the whole host of the Valar had to come in to eliminate all the dark forces Morgoth had gathered to him. It took decades for their whole lot to defeat Morgoth.
Because they're the real villains. They take after their maker.
Where were the Valar when the Westfold fell?
Everyone has their agency. Melkor did as well. Plus at times through the actions of wickedness are the Gods plans moved forward, even if the wicked believe otherwise
Orome is a great Valar.
😍😍😍💕💕👌
Not like they didn’t create the sun and moon or anything
Free will that’s why didn’t do more
I would agree the Valar response would always create world shattering consequences... like they did during the War of Powers. But maybe it is because any reponse they could take would be extreme in the children of Ilúvatar eyes. The two Trees were replaced by sun and moon, which shown the Valars reponse would always be nothing less than world changing.
As for their intervention during War of Wrath, Beleriand was mostly under Morgoth, the Eldar and Edain almost exterminated compared to their prior condition, hundred of years ago, and exiled to islands and few patches of the coast. And again, Beleriand was still destroyed from their intervention. Most surviving Noldors prefered to return in Valinor by then. As for the Edain, they gave to them Numenor, as they couldn't go to Valinor.
Even during the Fall of Numenor, Iluvatar intervened itself in behalf of the Valars (mostly too afraid to destroy another part of Middle-Earth as they have already done before) to counter how far Sauron was making the Middle-Earth into an horrible place.
The coming of the Istari, however, have shown the Valars did learn in time how to intervene on Middle-Earth. Then again, Gandalf was the only one left true to its task and prove them right in this venture. Saruman, the greatest of the chosen ones, ended up doing a lot of evil instead. Radagast went rogue and the blue wizards ended up being forgotten (if they just didn't sadly failed).
Any more intervention by the Valar would have made some of them nothing less then the 'lesser evil version of Morgoth'. They were servants of Iluvatar, each having a portion/vision of the Chant Iluvatar was ordaining. I'm just surprised Morgoth was the only one to actually be a part of Middle-Earth, even if it was to be the King of Arda... but again it would have made the Valar the protagonists of the story, the free races nothing more than the weak species they have to protect.
Thank god Tolkien wasn't raised/interested in the superhero genre.
FIRST!
Funny way to spell "fourth"?
All that background music is distracting and made it difficult to follow the narrative. I gave up at 4 min.
The real answer is that it would have made the main books stupid and pointless and Tolkein was just writing a good story. No real need to deep dive on this one