Why did Morgoth become so weak?
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- Опубликовано: 12 фев 2024
- In this video, we look at the reasons why Morgoth went from battling all the other Valar at once in the beginning to being a mere shadow of his former self by the time of his final defeat.
Thumbnail Art - Thomas Rouillard
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Melkor has always wanted the iluvatar's flame imperishable and ability to create life.
Since he couldn't create life, he invested alot of his own power to corrupt beings instead.
He also used his own power to curse Hurins line.
Like an evil god of squirrels, he stashes little bits of evil throughout the land, that he might find and subsist on them when he awakens again.
Tulkas hadn't yet allocated his stats. So when the other Valar discovered Morgoth was vulnerable to strike damage, he did a min/max STR/DEX build to achieve maximum DPS with Mithril knuckles, which were upgraded to +10 Heavy infusion by Aule.
9:39 I think the reason Sauron couldn’t overthrow Morgoth (even though, as you said, the former was more powerful at this stage) is because Morgoth pouring his power on his servants also made them more “bound” to him the same way the One Ring is bound to Sauron himself.
Thus, Sauron likely couldn’t distinguish some of his thoughts from those of his master’s and betraying the latter is something he would not have even considered as long as Morgoth’s presence lingered on the Earth.
Edit: typo
Quite possible. Tolkien talks about Sauron's actions after Morgoth fell, and he says that while Sauron may have initially repented sincerely (if only out of fear), over time he slipped back into evil "because the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong."
Morgoth had so corrupted Sauron that he owned his Mind, in Numenor remember how Sauron lured people into the worship of NOT himself but Morgoth.... Sauron was completely owned by him
@@stevemiller4494It could also be that it'd be a hard sell to get them to worship him when he was brought to the island in chains. Tolkien talks about this in one of his letters iirc
Hey Darth Gandalf, could ever do a video on the abandoned valar aka Makar and Meásse?
Yes I like this idea
I've always imagined that Morgoth developed some sort of vast fungal-like slave farming system in Anband and Utmno. It would be operated by worker creatures dedicated to the role. This idea is inspired by what ants do in the natural world.
I wonder if the Ants would end up like the ones in Hunter x Hunter lol
It makes me imagine Row after row and mile after mile of dead beings. Orc, elf, man and almost any being that once walked within Arda.
From each body there are spore bearing pustules. When ripe the spores are harvested and then converted into food for Morgoth's armies.
Of course whilst well fed, the orcs hunger for man or elf meat. This makes them even more dangerous in battle, for they often see it as an extra harvest.
This assumes that they can eat before the overseers cart off the corpses to the "body farms."
Is this what you were thinking of? 😊❤❤❤😊
@@markstott6689 Only Morgoth's favorite pet beasts get to sample growths fed by these exotic meats!
Rumor has it that Morgoth delights in tinkering with the maturation process. He's had centuries to find ways of keeping a few select 'fertilizers' alive for as long as possible.
Compared to this hell, Sauron's above-ground slave plantations in Nurn are a mere shadow in scale. They feel far less otherworldly, are worked by Orcs and Men, and are more orderly.
@@Uncle_Fred That's evil, even by my standards 😂😂😂🤢🤢🤢💀💀☠️💀💀🤢🤢🤢😂😂😂
Could be ants were designed by Morgoth all along.
Seriously. Fuck those things.
Thank you. This is the first video on this topic that I feel actually explained the metaphor between Sauron’s ring vs Morgoth and Arda. Even reading the HoME books not everyone gets that clearly. Well, that’s my take on it based on some of the videos I’ve seen.
You are quite good at the explication of the ideas in many of JRRT’s and other’s books.
Best, JTI
Well seema you havent found about Nerd of the Ring or InDeepGeek youtube channels then my friend! Suggest you follow asap
I remember one sentence that went something like he wasted much of his power on himself.
I wonder what that means, I'm sure it can be interpreted in many ways but personally I can't find a meaning for it
What if himself means his creations as they are from him.
I suspect it has much to do with his physical form, and his mighty fortress Angband, as well the various monstrous races he twisted into being
He was never pictured as having power equal to the other Valar combine, just the most powerful amongst them having varìus abilities which were in the specific domains of the others minus the power over water which is to explain his utter hatred towards Ulmo. He even tried to gain the allegiance of the main Ulmo's Maiar in Osse for that reason.
@@ValyrianPrinceThat's certainly counterintuitive
I have long speculated that Melkor's spirit being dispersed might have a secondary, long-term consequence: that the *dispersed* spirit in Middle Earth might develop an agenda of its own, different from that of Morgoth's now exiled body. Perhaps, when Túrin finally slays Morgoth during Dagor Dagorath, what actually happens as a result of that is for the disparate parts of Melkor's spirit to reunite - and then the *real* finale begins!
wydm finally it already happend
He is the final boss, of course that fight has at least 2-3 stages.
Besides power, I wonder when Melkor crossed the point of no return in terms of being an enemy of the Vala and Eru. Probably the orcs, but you've got to be pretty far gone by that point to consider doing that anyway.
I don't know, I remember a line not long after the creation of arda where Eru revealed snow to Ulmo, who wondered at it despite being a byproduct of Melkor's extremes. I wonder if it was Eru offering an out (or perhaps in this case, a way back in) for Melkor to see how he could bring change and new wonders to arda without becoming a rebel, even if Melkor probably just got mad they actually liked something he made.
My guess when he destroyed the two trees.
It is stated if i remember correclty, that for Eru all the bad things Melkor did, even despicable ones and even being detestable like elfs turning to orcs, even all these were finally turn to good at least to a good ending.
"Evil is self-defeating" like the author in the video says.
He did during the song.
He was made to go against everything.
@@jawstrock2215 Eh...remember that Eru smiles and only got a bit stern the first two times Melkor cut loose, and we should remember that Tolkien stated that nothing was truly evil in the beginning, so he wasn't made to go against Eru's plan.
I suspect the reason Eru allowed the initial acts during the song was because in a way, this was Melkor's role: beginning and stirring up new things in order to enrich Arda with greater diversity of environment and life. The problem was by the end, he clearly was striving against Eru, hence the need for chastisement and a reminder that nothing he did would do more than serve as Eru's instrument and causing things yet more wonderful.
I think an important thing that wasn't mentioned is that Morgoth's Ring was specially impregnated in Gold, gold corrupts beings
Another Maiar he was said to be terrified of was Arien, the Maiar who would carry the sun through the sky, who he tried to recruit but was spurned by her. But to suggest Morgoth became weak is wide of the mark because more nuanced than that. It wasn't that he became weak, its that his strength became more dispersed through Arda and the creations he made. He was still as strong as he ever was but that strength had become too decentralised to be useful on a practical level.
Which is weakness
That is what was said in this video.
It is still a lot better then putting so much of your power into the one ring. They can´t throw arda into mount doom to get rid of him.
His body and spirit became weak, but his influence is eternal.
Ooo. Do a what if Sauron launched a rebellion against Morgoth in the first age
Maybe sauron was so bound to Morgoths will could not have even thought about doing so, someone did mention Tolkien did write something that did point to that direction. But I propably should read Silmarillion again.
I totally forgot about the ring of Melkor being Arda itself... if I even read about it somewhere.
Also there is another mistery I would love to know about, the outer ring/gate that appears in some ilustrations depicting the home of Eru? Outside arda and guarded by Dragons...
I’ve always figured Sauron was genuinely loyal to Morgoth and it wasn’t a Sith kind of situation. Sauron admired Morgoth’s ability to enact designs quickly and masterfully but I’d say Morgoth turned a lot of that over to Sauron so they both thought they benefited from it.
The weakness of Morgoth by the end of the First Age means that the Free Peoples would have been victorious in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, which was due to the Oath of Feanor preventing their final victory. How the Oath did this is unclear, but outside of a general metaphysical curse, in concrete terms it probably resulted in the treachery of Men at the pivotal moment of the battle, and it also certainly alienated Nargothrond and Doriath, so they didn't send their forces.
So without the Oath, the Union of Maedhros would have crushed Morgoth, and could have captured him bodily. What they would have done with Morgoth after that, because they didn't have the option of casting Morgoth into the Void, who knows, but they probably would have kept him in some supermax Middle Earth prison.
If they had prevailed, the other Valar would had come to take him away for judgement.
They didn't directly intervene, because they feared a loss, and also the destruction of the land like it did before the Elves woke up, but if Melkor was already defeated, that would not be an issue.
I thoroughly enjoyed this video. Superb!
I imagine Morgoths realisation at his own diminshed power came as Tulkas slammed him on his head.
Idk I saw a video where manwe and Morgoth ran into each other in the wild or something like that and they were both kinda shocked because Manwe could actually kinda hold his own. He wouldn’t have beaten him but there was a quite noticeable change in their power levels.
@@forfun6273 I never heard of that happening, maybe Tolkien wrote about it somewhere but I've never read anything like that.
@@akeelyaqub2538 yeah. Idk. I recall someone talking about it in a video. Maybe they were speculating too. Idk.
@@forfun6273 there was something i heard about, in that tolkien wrote some now scrapped details about the war for the sake of the elves. I remember a portion included Manwe scorching a bunch of balrogs with lightning so maybe him facing melkor was a part of those scrapped scenes.
“Puny god”
Too greedily and too widely did he spread his seed. 😁
This was one of the funniest "Cheers, farewell and remember" zingers you've done in awhile. Way to go!
I prefer Sauron over Morgoth but I have to admit that without him Sauron would have had problems later on, I also loved your idea about a what if Szenario were Sauron tries to overthrow Morgoth.
Morgoth was def way smarter then sauron. He put his power into arda instead of in a magical object. All they had to do to get rid of sauron was throw the ring into mount doom, can´t do that witrh arda can you ? In the end sauron is gone but part of morgoth will be there till arda ends
@@daftwulli6145 yeah I have to admit that Morgoths Influence shaped Arda forever, and Sauron didn't come near to that. Do you think Sauron would have been able to overthrow Morgoth in the first age?
@@ulbingelias6894 Able ? Possible, the big question we would have to ask first is if he would have actually tried. He had a lot of morgoth in him and if he overthrows morgoth what happens to himself ? I do not think he would have been willing to find out. Overthrowing him might have spelled his own doom.
I think sauron would have naturally tried to get influence over morgoth to be more in line with saurons goals. Way less risky and more his style. Also the ultimate challenge, if he can influence Morgoth he can achieve his ultimate goasl of dominion over middle earth and he could go for the valar next. I think that is way more fititng of the dark lord then open rebellion.
1. Nearly gets killed by a giant spider
2. His pet Dragon who he kept in reserve broke free and won the battle for him and yet he disciplined poor Glaurung despite winning the battle for him
3. Get mortally wounded by being stabbed in the shin
He aint so tough afterall
Well, in all fairness the "Giant Spider" was essentially a cosmic Eldritch Horror.
Well, in all fairness the "Giant Spider" was essentially a cosmic Eldritch Horror.
Considering that Morgoth was said to fight in the Final Battle where the world was destroyed does that mean that all or at least a good portion of his power returned to him with the destruction of the world? Like how liquid is released when you smash a bottle?
So it would appear.
I think it may go like this. Arda is not perfect courtesy to him. Thus, I suspect matter and energy can be accessed through tiny cracks or holes at the borders of the world and our dark lord Morgoth simply regain his powers that way. He may even stay near the spot of where Utumno and Angband used to be and slowly reabsorb his powers like a leech on Arda's border in the Timeless Void beyond. When he's ready, he simply overwhelemed the guards at the door of night, no longer the weak and pathetic self he is reduced to and bam, Dagor Dagorath.
I mean, no way all that ocean spilling and continent reshaping does no damage right?
Very good video 👍 In my opinion a video about Sauron - why he did not rebel against Melkor being stronger. Melkor beast and creations still would not obey Sauron. Melkor had the army of creatures Sauron was not able to make those submit to his will. Melkor was still the Boss because he had control over dragons, balrogs etc. because they had his power inside so...
Very great video, I'm very surprised to not see 100k+ views
Almost all through the story, Morgoth runs away with his tail between his legs, sneaking around and acting like a thief. With the power he possess, it is clearly that of a cowardly villain and nothing more.
Great video!
Morgoth used part of himself to create “evil”, which can never be completely removed from the earth. He was obsessed with creating something that was his and not illuvatars, but “evil” was all he could manage.
You'd think Sauron would use Morgoth's weakening as a precautionary tale, instead he committed the same mistake.
Actually he didn't. Morgoth dispersed and became personally weaker. Sauron concentrated and became personally stronger.
@@ghostdreamer7272 he put his entire power into the one ring did he not?
@@MagashiSaizen True but i believe while he possessed the one ring his power was actually enhanced beyond his natural power but also severely crippled without it. His creation of the ring being a high risk/ high reward sort of thing. Just my own personal theory.
@@MagashiSaizen Not his entire power but most of it.
@@MagashiSaizen Sauron didn't put all his power into it,, it was a magnifier of his power, but his power became dependent on its existence. Think of it this way. Every body has some watts of electricity. What's more effective, spreading your body's electricity throughout the planet, or compressing it into a battery (which you're hooked up to and have to carry around, but the reserve power gives your more strength and will save your life). Sauron did the opposite of Melkor. However, when the Ring, such a small thing, is destroyed then his threat is over. But Melkor made it so he and his presence and impact can never be gotten rid of without destroying the whole world and everything in it - since Morgoth's "ring" survives so does he, and it's probably this way that Melkor would return for the Dagor Dagorath.
Tolkien never fully determined it himself, but I have to wonder if the answer to "why do all orcs seem to be evil if the are incarnate beings" could be that they actually are not. The fact that Morgoth couldn't create life didn't stop his pride from forcing him to invest tiny pieces of his own spirit into his work to fake it. As such, each orc would be effectively an intelligent animal, but invested with a tiny amount of Morgoth's broken and evil spirit (some like Bolg get more than others) where on death those pieces are lost in the void or reshaped in new orcs.
Is there anything said about the fact that since Valar have seen the vision of Arda, so they do know what will happen (apart from later eras), does that mean they've seen all what Melkor will do too? And if they haven't, how can they predict what will happen in their prophesies? Or was this whole thing not really addressed by Tolkien anywhere?
None of the Valar knew everything contained in the Music of the Ainur. Some knew less, some knew more, and some things were unknown to any of them.
I'd argue that Morgoth was always a coward and he just became more and more what he truly was inside.
Didn‘t Eru say that all those Ainur who went to Arda couldn‘t leave until it‘s destruction? So how could Morgoth flee Arda?
Those Ainur were bound to remain in Eä, the larger creation (universe for lack of a better term) but they were not bound to stay within Arda.
Yeah, once they went into the vision, they became bound to it's fate.
Melkor traveled the deep void before the Song though, seeking the flame eternal or something else.
Arda is just the bigger continent, that he claimed as his own.
Would love to see a middle earth mysteries on Hurin the Tall, Warden of the Keys. As far as I can tell no elaboration is given on this title, though he is clearly an important person as he commands the forces that hold Minas Tirith while Aragorn and Imrahil lead the host of the West to the black gate. This means he likely outranks the Lord of Lamebon as many of these men were reinforcements originally under the command of Angbor
I always chalked up his weakening to "going against the will of Eru sapped his majesty", but this is nicely specific and reasonable!
Naw, just like all other Valar, to create or change things, they had to use some of their own essence. Melkor just did it way more, on way more things, giving that permanent corruption effect.
@@jawstrock2215 Is it the case that ANY act of creation -- even ones perfectly in line with Eru's intentions -- depleted the Valar?
@@General12th yes, this is explicitly mentioned with Yavanna and the 2 trees of Valinor.
She mentions she would never again have the strength to recreate them. Not without a part of it to grow from.(e.g. the silmarils).
It also goes with the general entropy of the world overall.
Morgoth's power going into the world and thus corrupting everything in it is an echo of Adam and Eve's sin and it's tainting of humanity
“Evil cannot create anything new, they can only corrupt and ruin what good forces have invented or made.”
-John Ronald Reuel Tolkien
Writer and philologist
So, I think I remember reading that the "Melkor element" that became a part of Arda is the source of evil sorcery in Tolkien's works, but I'm not sure where I remember it from. Can anyone help me out? Or at least confirm I didn't hallucinate it?
They grew special mushrooms in Angband which orks fed upon.
On one hand, we never "see" Morgoth, as he's "prequel" historical content, even in the Silmarilion, and there is SO MUCH diverse artistic depictions of what he may have looked like, so we don't know, but I still wish that there had been some way of representing his diminishment, like he entered the world as a surging titan, but then, as instances where he was seen proceeded, he'd appear smaller, or less magnificent. He might've started glowing, and brilliant, but then slowly tarnished, dimmed, or corroded. Maybe he would have once appeared as an obviously whole being, but then, over time, more and more of his faded form might've been covered, or literally replaced, with his monstrous armor; not to protect his invulnerable body, but to conceal that he literally had less of himself as he continued to divest his essence into Middle Earth. It also might have been nice if they had described, at least partially, how he broke himself apart, like did he let flow some of his blood, and contaminate the lands, rivers, and forests with it, but then obviously even he only had so much essence to spend? Sure, Tolkien probably didn't want to describe his Dark Lord opening a vein, or something, and lots of Morgoth's actions were more spiritual, than physical, but it still might have helped depict his diminution if we had known what of himself he was spending, as well as either noting others noticing it, or him making concerted efforts, apart from just staying holed ip in Utumno, to prevent them from noticing, as his weakening might have pushed others to try and best him sooner.
Lastly, this has always been one of my own biggest gripes with Sauron, and especially with Morgoth; they hold SO MUCH supernatural might, but so often play the role of armchair general, and delegator, that they rarely seem to be seen USING their might, and by the time they are forced, they've faded so much they are effectively only shadows if their prior power, and they get beaten by individuals. It makes more sense with Sauron, though he is, at times, a protean shape-shifter, and I wish that he had been seen more doing battle, and being powerful enough that opponents needed to find alternative ways to best him, lest he do his best impression of a Beorning, and Elden Ring ruin bear roflstomp through an army division, but by the time he was bested, even with the Ring, it took two people. And I know, both Elendil, and Gil-Galad, were "epic heroes" of people, it took days, and they both died, too, but it still seemed like not so much. Melkor was worse, though. Here was THE evil power. He was mightier than the other Valar, even combined, but we don't see him toppling mountains, to block their armies, or forcing the Valar back by physically overpowering them, and MAKINGthem have to deal with him via proxies. Their inability to fight against Morgoth always seems more tied to their fear of damaging Arda, again, or Incidentally maiming the Elves, and Men, than any fear he could actually harm them, and he's, I think, the only Vala we ever see who does get harmed. If not for him, we could almost assume angels are invulnerable, as the way they were made, by Eru, there was never a need for them to be damaged, or feel pain, and so they lacked those qualities, but then he IS maimed, and by an Elf, wielding a weapon angelic hands hadn't been required to forge. Fingolfin was, again, epic, and did die, but his weapon wasn't created by Aule, to mar the flesh of even a Vala, and then he was weak enough a single Elf COULD hurt him, and while he was mightier than ALL the Valar, by the time we get Tulkas, he can wrestle the mightiest down alone, and without injuries to himself. I almost wonder if Tulkas could have just strode into Mordor, beating down both the Black Gate, and the doors of Barad-dur, to seize Sauron, and drag him back to Valinor? Could Orc arrows have hurt HIM? Would they have just balked at his presence, and let him pass uncontested? And I know, I'm just crapping on Tolkien, at this point. For the story to work, evil needs certain allowances, and for the heroes to have their own chances to claim their victories, amd to fail, but I guess I like to harp on some of this?
could you make a video about sequel prequels ideas for shadow of war Mordor the Shadow games
Tulkas “ come get these hands”
So Morgoth and Tulkas wrestled and got sweaty. That's hawt, Precious.
It's called "The Peter Principle." Morgoth promoted himself to become the ruler of everything single thing in Middle-Earth, which as it turns out spreads him so thin as to become almost completely incompetent, especially during a crisis like a full-on attack by your former colleagues in management who've had enough of your BS.
great vid & perspective. itd be awesome if you go in depth w manwë.
Would Morgoth die if he was slain or would he just start recollecting his power and return stronger? It would make sense if he just resurrects that he continues pouring his power into his creations because he is trying to prove that he can take over the world with his own creations.
THIS is something that has always bothered me, finally explained. I could not understand why an entity SO powerful, he was second only to G*d (Illuvatar) himself, was later getting beat on by elves.
I didn't expect that last sentence LOL
"If you want to roleplay as Morgoth and gradually weaken yourself, you can do that through the power of cigarettes." LOL. When you said that I just for a split second thought "Someone should have told me that when I was 14." Then I remembered. People DID tell me that when I was 14 and long before. I was just the idiot that didn't listen and still vapes decades later.
Over time he just became Lessgoth
Evil will always lose
I would think that while Morgoth initially had the greater power overall, in all aspects, Tulkas was sent with greater physical power. Morgoth could not create life? Presumably he found some creature, and made them into trolls, and dragons/worms. It’s possible that Morgoth still had great power, but in the light of the sun, he was not able to withstand Eonwe.
Also, my theory on why Earendil was able to defeat Ancalagon was he wore the Silmaril, negating the dragons ability to mesmerize, and in fact Ancalagon was mesmerized by the Silmaril
An interesting take on entropy by tolkien. In most fiction evil bad guys wither because of the lust for immortality. The part about the horned beasts is interesting made me think of some precursors to the oliphants.
Put down Them Cigarettes!!! -Frodo Baggins
Salute from Toronto cheers
Is there a reason Sauron's ring strengthened him but Morgoth's ring didnt? Like, yes his power is poured into the earth but he's on that same earth, hes still in contact, or is it simply because its being "used"/ marring everything else at the same time?
That's a good question. I think it's a matter of design--Morgoth put his strength in the earth with the intention of raising an army of strong things, and making those things strong required a sacrifice of his own strength. Whereas Sauron's ring was designed to dominate weaker things, which is... different in an unspecified way. Tolkien tended to explain more _why_ his magic system worked rather than _how,_ so sometimes we can only guess as to the how.
No Tolkien explicitly stated that Morgoths lost power was not in commune with him whereas Sauron’s power was in commune with Sauron.
What if gimli took the one Ring
What if beren took all Three silmarils
What if Sauron killed isildur won the battle of Mount doom
What if Smaug went to Eriador instead of the North dale erebor
Good questions all!
“What if gimli took the one Ring”
- The world would face an eternity of hairy little women, malt beer and meat ripe off the bone.
“What if Beren took all Three silmarils”
- He could have opened a 3-star Michelin Restaurant on the first day of operation.
What if Sauron killed isildur won the battle of Mount doom
- It would have saved A LOT of people A LOT of work and running around Middle Earth as part of some halfass last minute plan to fix everything on a budget.
What if Smaug went to Eriador instead of the North dale erebor
- That would have made him look like such a total fool, when he could have just FLOWN there instead of walking all the way.
Hope that cleared things up forya 👌
which of Melkor's servants were stronger than Melkor? If you're thinking about that titanic dragon, then it's understandable. Others? Maybe, if we look at Melkor after he was injured, but pre-injury, definitely not.
All power, no game.
I suspect that the breeding of Glaurung cost Morgoth a good portion of his potential. It is written that he was afraid of facing Fingolfin, and he received his first wounds from an incarnate in that duel that shortly followed Glaurung's rampage at the Dagor Bragollach
Imagine that every member of the Ainur each have a maximum amount of gold coins they can carry, and every time they use their powers, a gold coin is spent. Each night, a single gold coin is automatically given back, but if their counter reaches 0, then this automatic restock ceases.
The Maiar can hold 100 gold coins each. The Valar can hold 1000 coins each, and Melkor can hold 10, 000.
The Ainur were more cautious and conservative with their interference with Middle Earth and its people, spending precious few coins, and being able to recover what was lost each consecutive night.
Melkor however, fully spent his coins with reckless abandon, using his power to reshape and corrupt the physical land of Middle Earth as well as its peoples. He very quickly spent far more gold coins than could be sustainably restocked over time, and relatively quickly reached his “0 coins” amount.
Despite being the most powerful, he spent so much of his power in such an unsustainable way that it burned out - hence why Sauron (a Maiar and lower power) would eventually end up having more power (or “gold coins” in my analogy) to Morgoth, and how The other Valar were eventually able to defeat him in his weakened state and cast him into the void - something they were woefully unable to do when they all initially entered Arda.
Nice video. Can Morgoth recover his power with rest? Gandalf seems to recover his strength after resting.
You got to remember that Sauron had the one ring in the second age, increasing his own power. Morgoth might’ve still been stronger in the first age than Sauron
very insightful look at the concepts in Tolkien. Morgoth was not demonstration of Hannah Arendts nature of evil (Sauron, however, might be tho)
So basically in trying to go further than Sauron ever did and dominate and corrupt all life in Middle Earth. Morgoth opens himself up to the same weakness that would destroy Sauron, pouring so much into massive project that when he loses control over it, is left a shadow of his former self.
I would assume that Sauron (or anyone else) couldn't overthrow Morgoth specifically because Morgoth poured so much of himself into dominating them. Much like with Arda, the hold is permanent. And at least that wouldn't be a completely stupid decision - exchanging your power for powerful slaves. Maybe even it was net positive..?
Smoke em if you got em
From defeating all of the valar to getting his butt kicked by a really angry elf.
The thing is, I think that's just a figure of speech(the defeating all other Valars). I don't think they ever thought head to head, but it was more, they tried to create something, and Melkor would always come and undo destroy or modify/corrupt it. They grew tired of it and left and made Aman instead, leaving Melkor to do has he pleased in Arda(thus winning).
Although, Melkor could never totally remove anything others made, so we had leftovers of the creation.
he poured all his knowledge and abilities into tearing down and corrupting the achievements of the other Valar, rather than help them create an even more effulgent Arda than they were able to without him.
He weakened himself by giving into the vice of envy and spent all his power trying to appease it, until he spent it all. Or if not all, then so much of it that it's all he can do to keep himself together and his thralls (orcs etc) going after going hog-wild in the Marring of Arda and then getting his ass beat by Tulkas and then Ungoliant
I love how Tulkas didn't give a fuck about Morgoth being more powerful than all of them combined.
It is just every drama in every minecraft server
one does not simply remain strong after so much sundering
Will cigarettee also make me a dark lord? 😂
You have to go back to the very beginning of the silmarillion you really have to look at the entire situation from the very beginning and you have to ask deeper questions.... One question that comes to mind is why did Big Daddy Eru Iluvatar make Melkor more powerful than all the Ainur combined? Then after giving him all this power for some reason then he shames and humiliates him... But then all of the Ainur are told about Arda in many of them went down many of them stayed back with big daddy... They were told that they could make In-Shape the world so while they were in the world all of their power went into Arda.....
So obviously there was constraints that while you were in the physical world your power stayed there in the physical world....
As was noted in the video and in JRR tolkien's works Morgoths Ring was Arda itself he had poured the majority of his power into Arda and permanently corrupting it.... Since he was more powerful than his brethren all COMBINED that means the Majority of Arda was his and under his power with or without him....
What most people don't realize, is that the Valar lost even more power than Morgoth.... That's why they had to have Tulkas come down with fresh power to deal with Morgoth and even then that wasn't enough....the Valar how to put up large amounts and set up guards around Valinor to prevent Melkor from asailing them because they were so weak..... Later by time the war of wrath came and so much energy was dispensed on both sides....the Valar became very weak....
By the time you get into the second age and with Sauron and Numenor..Later.Eru had to step in to take on the Numenoreans and sink their island and imprison them and Valinor/undying lands had to be taken out of Arda because of the fact that they were so weak the Valar they couldn't even fight the Numenoreans...Big Daddy had to come in and save them...
Thats why Sauron was able to thrive in Middle Earth because the the Valar was too weak... And that's why they sent the Istari wizards to help fight against Sauron.
But in my opinion it's clear that when the Valar and Morgoth leave Arda, their powers regenerate....when Morgoth left Arda after the Wsr of Powers he did this because he knew he could regenerate his powers.... That's why he didn't continue to fight off a fresh off the bench Tulkas... Because if both of them had been at full power when they met... Morgoth would have dealt with with Tulkas like a Bulldozer dealing with a flimsy shack....
So yea morgoth spent most of his energy in Arda and was greatly weakened by it but that was his plan....
And the fact that the Valar threw him into the void.... They stupidly were setting him up to regain all his power back through regeneration....
So Morgoth sat in the darkness of the void regaining all his power...
So I can ask the question why did Big Daddy give Morgoth so much power? Well my opinion he wanted him to be his heir apparent..... I mean why else give him all that power? 😩
I remember seeing somewhere that as Sauron poured much of his power into the ring, Morgoth poured much of himself into Arda itself. Not sure if this is cannon or anything.
Edit: “Morgoth’s Ring”. Thank you.
Morgoth was not more powerful than all the Valar combined. Combined, the Valar did not have the strength to subdue him because Morgoth had many powerful servants like Balrogs, maiar, and perhaps other Nameless Things. Morgoth was more powerful than any individual Valar, meaning his spiritual essence or magical power, surpassed that of all other Valar. Tolkien never stated who the 2nd most powerful Valar was, but we assumed Manwe because he was the closest to Eru Ilúvatar, but it could have been Tulkas.
Well he wanted Arnur and so to make it his he had to invest himself into it if for no other reason than to ensure that it would never be what anyone else wanted. Because he's spiteful like that.
Could the free people breed their own orc armies and use them against Sauron?
What would happen if Saruman bred his Uruk army, but tried to help Gondor and Rohan against Mordor instead?
Would you really want to though?
With orcish temperament being what it is, would you really want 100,000 orcs in your army when their allegiance is easily bought by the enemy?
Perhaps not after all. 😊❤😊
@@markstott6689 Thats why I wonder a) if it was possible and b) if it would be worth the effort.. some cannon fodder is always useful
@@untitled568 The thing is this. Orcs aren't the mindless morons that they are often portrayed as. It takes Sauron and his abilities to hold an army together. It takes Saruman the use of power to hold his much smaller army together. Orcs don't carelessly get themselves killed for the fun of it. Coercement is needed.
However, if you have two opposing orc armies facing off, can you guarantee that they will fight and kill each other. Might they just unite and turn on their supposed allies? Again. Do you want to take that chance?
@@markstott6689 Fair enough..makes sense, thanks for the answer!
I think it must have been all that crappy orc cooking that did him in. 🤔
Even if Sauron was stronger than Morgoth at the end of the 1st Age, would he have known it? He was very used to being Morgoth's lieutenant so he might simply not known how far Morgoth's native power had been diminished. There's also the matter of who would have supported him? Say what you want about him but Morgoth's servants were loyal to him.
I don't think Sauron at the time of the War of the Last Alliance was peak Sauron; he had been diminished when he died at the Fall of Númenor.
Not all fans realizes that Battle of the Last Alliance was Sauron’s most diminished moment
I figure sauron was bound to morgoths will much as the nazgul were bound to his.
This is all very reasonable
Algormancy!
Would Morgoth have truly died if his physical form was destroyed, or would his spirit go into the Halls of Mandos, the void, or returned to Eru-Il? If Morgoth entered the Halls of Mandos, would Morgoth be subject to its laws of death and waiting, or could Morgoth withdraw his spiritual essence from the world back into himself, and overpower the Halls of Mandos, and return to the world?
He would become like Sauron at the end of the Third Age; an impotent spirit with very little capability of interacting with the physical world. Basically, a malevolent, but mostly harmless ghost.
I'm pretty sure Morgoth would let the orcs eat each other before he'll serve them food 🤔
I like how you say elve, instead of elf. Proper tolkien scholar.
Tolkien used elf and dwarf. He used the -ve for plurals.
incorrect@@Disgruntled_Grunt
for the elf part. dwarf yes.
@@dubya85 Read the books and see which the author used in his published works.
A victim of his own ambitions.
I think comparing him to mortal is too much. At his weakest I imagine he'd atleast still have fair advantage against Elven High King's (like Fingolfin). Besides, there would be much more assassination attempts if that was the case. And Sauron himself would seek to overthrow him. And despite weakened body he still had much greater attunement to power and will than any Maia, including Sauron.
i heard that last line a i was rolling a joint.. guess I'll make my own morgoth's ring of smoke lol
I think you have a basic misunderstanding of "power", no offense. The word power doesn't necessarily mean the power to fight. This isn't like Dragonball or any superhero story. I think Morgoth has the power to create, change and corrupt the world of Arda. The war the Ainur fought was more like a building competition with dirty tricks than an actual fight. This is why Tulkas was a such a big change, he specifically had the power to fight unlike the other Valar. This is also why Morgoth created the orcs, dragons, trolls etc. their role was to fight the battles he couldn't.
Another aspect that is missing here is that the Ainur at the start did not have any bodies. After they took a form the were able to become tired and get injured. There is part of the Silmarillion that states that after a certain point Morgoth lost the power to change his form, so that all the injuries he suffered and the exhaustion took their toll.
I'm just here to comment for the algorithm.
0:44 to 0:50 1:16 to 1:24 1:25 to 1:30
Weak isn't really the most correct way to put it.
I dunno, is it really a high fantasy idea that evil is self destructive ? We see evidence in the real world that this is true.
Vaping
you've been accused of being too harsh on the biggest villain in the world?
He was never in the game lol eru's was beyond his evil rebellion. Must have been real humbling
Morgoth did nothing wrong. Free my man, Morgoth.
Why did morgoth made himself weaker? Is he stupid?
Morgoth tainted, corrupted and marred the whole world of Arda- and perhaps even Valinor. Every dark thing in the natural world can be blamed on Morgoth: storms, earthquakes, volcanoes, floods, drought, disease, blight, decay, predators, etc. And while Elves and Men can do either good or bad, their darker impulses may be increased by Morgoth's dispersed essence- or darker impulses arise when encountering substances tainted by Morgoth.
This means there will all always be evil and the world will always be broken- even if new beauty and new wonders emerge. The only way to completely destroy Morgoth and destroy all corruption would be to destroy the whole of Arda. But that would mean the extinction of the Children of Illuvatar.
In a sense Morgoth won. His main legacy is of course Sauron and the Orcs who ravaged at one point or another much of Middle Earth. After Sauron's fall the powers of darkness will concentrate in the hands of Men. And though Men could never control the world as Sauron or Morgoth did, they can be just as tyrannical, genocidal and cruel.
Had Morgoth been good then there would be no dark lords. Men would be almost as enlightened as Elves, and Men could perhaps live for centuries before choosing to die at their own time; while all parts of Arda would have the bliss and timelessness of Arda. That was the original hope of the Valar.
But Eru Illuvatar had other ideas, hence why Morgoth was permitted by Eru to enter Arda even though Eru knew that Morgoth's heart was already rebellious and darkened. Morgoth was necessary evil.
@@skatemetrixfantastic comment
Melkor/Morgoth initially wanted the Flame Imperishable, the power of true creation, but only Ilúvatar had the Flame Imperishable. Then he decided to seize Ilúvatar's creation for his own but despite all the damage and destruction he sewed, he was still losing. He basically then went insane and decided to try and destroy everything.
yeah, i'm morg
Did you have to ruin a perfectly good video with a crap joke at the end? I suppose that was Morgoth's influence working through you...