You make it sound like Arnor was useless. Don’t forget they held Angmar off at the Weathered Hills for 600 years before Amon Sul fell. And Arthedain still fought (even won some field battles) for hundreds of years after
Elendil seems to have founded his kingdom in the north for two reasons: To be as close as possible to Lindon and Gil-Galad’s elves (which largely dissolved following the Last Alliance, depriving Arnor of its primary ally, and that it would be closest geographically to the for island of Numenor, as Elendil often spent his time looking through the last Palantir which is fixed only westward.
The island of Numenor was more Southward than Westward to Arnor. I believe he wanted to gaze at the Undying Lands, which was Westward (in a sense, though it was technically no longer part of Middle Earth by the time of Arnor)
Maybe, just maybe that is where he simply landed when fleeing Numenor and he decided to establish his kingdom via thst way. And yes, it was close to Lindon
Arnor only had one "serviceable" port--Tharbad. After the great flood, Tharbad started to fall into ruin and the bridge collapsed from lack of maintenance. Plus Eriador itself is sort of isolated. We only see two and a half seaports (Vinyalonde is the "half"), there are limited passes over the mountains, Winters can be harsh, and only the Gap of Rohan provides easy access to Eriador. Plus it was just less populated when Elendil came. There's no mention of permanent residents of Tharbad, there might have been villages and homesteads here and there, with Bree being the chief place once the Roads were established. Perhaps that's why the roads crossed in Bree--because it was a waypoint.
There is actually mention about Tharbad being both a port and a fortified town, and the Bridge only fell into decay after the Great Plague as both kingdoms withdrew their garrisons from the town
@@paulwagner688 yes, the Fell Winter devastated the whole land of Minhiriath and made the last inhabitants of Tharbad abandon it, but it came almost 900 years after the fall of arnor. As for the swamps and marshes, they had been around Tharbad ever since the foundation of Eregion at least, but the Numenóreans drained most of it.
@@kauetadaieski3131 maybe not, for even before the division of Arnor there were:"remnants of men of evil kinds, hostile to the Kings", and the Edain had a long time of peace to thrive and very fertile and rich lands, though Arnor had been at peace after Sauron, still not all of their lands were very good for farming, and the War of The Last Alliance took a heavy toll on their already smaller population.
One major and recurring theme in all of Tolkien's writings is that people must unite and work together in order to defeat the darkness of the world. This kingdom is an example of what happens when that theme isn't followed.
Two points you did not specifically mentioned: Gondor was based on the foundation of existing havens at Pelargir and Umbar, with the surrounding lands already peopled (maybe even with some Numenoreans. In contrast, Arnor was built mostly in the wilderness of Eregion, which had seen a far smaller Numenorean influence (beyond Tharbad). Elendil landed there with 4 ships, whilst his sons had 5 in the south. Secondly, whilst both Arnor and Gondor lost many men in the War of the Last Alliance, Arnor's losses may have been more severe due to the Disaster of the Gladden Fields, where Isildur fell. This loss close to the beginning of the realm, may have left relative weakness in Arnor, compared to Gondor.
To be honest, Arnor was built around the diminished but not small populations and settlements of the Dúnedain and Middle Men around the North Downs, the Barrow Downs and between the rivers Lhûn and Baranduin. All those regions had a lot of Numenórean influence. As for your second point, you are totally right. The losses might have been in the tens of thousands, and many were young and childless men.
@@anti-liberalismo I always thought that the disaster of Gladden Fields was just Isildur and his immediate retinue being ambushed. I figured it wouldn’t have been more than a few hundred men, after all, they had just crushed Sauron in the war of the last alliance and probably felt confident to travel in safety.
Can you further clarify the Gladden Fields issue and Isildurs death? As far as I remember, there were only 200 soldiers slained, including Isildurs sons. What do you think how much these men embodied in percentage of the overall army of Arnor? They probably had at least a couple thousands of soldiers. 5-7k I would guess. But I don't have knowledge that goes deeper into the subject, because I never was really researching the history of Arnor.
The great plague also tore through both kingdoms and severely thinned the already waning Numenorean blood. As I recall, Tharbad effectively became deserted even though it was a strategic port city in the west
This is a lesson for all Parents: Always Write Up a Will! Especially if you're a King and have three sons in which two of them are very petty, jealous and greedy. Cannot emphasize this enough people lol.
Also if you have three daughters, two of whom are greedy and ambitious and only one of whom really loves you--but, alas, doesn't have the tact or dishonesty to flatter you and feed your vanity.
@Joshua Lowe 2 of Charlemagne’s sons died before he himself did. It was Charlemagne’s surviving son and heir Louis who split the empire into 3 for _his_ 3 sons, who were Charlemagne’s *grand* sons.
What's most obvious to me, is that the fragmentation of Arnor is based on what happened to Charlemagne's empire after he died, when the kingdom was split up among his children/heirs because the custom of "primogeniture" had not evolved yet. This was an historical tragedy that was likely well known to Tolkien's readers, and the analogy would have been easily seen.
Yes, I have always thought that. Tolkien did create a world with some similarities to our own--perhaps to show that history tends to repeat itself (or that there are only a few ways in which human civilizations can arise and evolve--and die) and perhaps to show the reader that this really is our world, only in an earlier age. Minas Tirith seems to echo Constantinople, particularly in its later years of Byzantium, when it was menaced by the various peoples pressing in on the Eastern Roman Empire from the east. (The mention of the wain riders in the Appendix definitely brings to mind the various nomads of the Asian steppes sweeping into Europe.) If Gondor is the Eastern Empire, then Arnor is the Western, which in our world fell apart centuries before the Western was reduced to one fortress city with a dwindling territory around it, finally falling in the siege of the Ottoman Turks.
Charlemagne's Empire actually survived for another generation because all of his legitimate sons except Louis the Pious died before him. Louis however splitted the Empire between his sons Lothaire, Louis the German and Charles the Bald. Louis the German inherited the Kingdom of East Francia, Charles the Bald inherited the Kingdom of West Francia and Lothaire inherited a buffer zone between those Kingdoms called Lotharingia as well as the title of Emporer
@@elainechubb971 On the other hand, the charge of the Rohirrim is said to be based on the Polish cavalry charge against those same Ottomans at Vienna in 1683, so the historical parallels continue, even if they are heavily remixed.
I think the biggest weakness Arnor had was its geography. Eriador was an isolated area compared to Gondor so it had less trade and it’s only neighbours were the mostly isolationist elves of the grey havens and Rivendell. Also the more northerly middle men have past grievances against Numenorians and were already predisposed to turn against them. Also where as Gondor was always tried in the fire of war Arnor had almost no conflicts after the end of the second age and was unprepared for Angmar wars. As someone else pointed out Arnor’s only port was Tharbad and the greyflood likely froze over in the winter further limiting opportunities for communication between the two kingdoms. Isolation, declining prosperity, and a lack of external conflicts were probably the contributing factors to cause the division with in the kingdom.
I agree, and to add to this, there is a clear geographical centre of power & population in Gondor which just isn't present in Arnor. Most of Gondor's population lived on either side of the Anduin: in Anorien, Ithilien and Lebennin, where there are clear lines of communication, providing a solid base for the kings to spread their influence north, south, and west. From the little that we know of it, Arnor's population seems to have been pretty widely distributed, with the main cities of Annuminas, Fornost, Bree and Tharbad separated by huge distances.
I think that also, like a lot of why political divisions occur, geography plays a surprisingly vital role. Gondor is a Kingdom built around the White Mountains, one of its key fortresses at Minas Tirith literally built into the mountains with its original capital not far away on the river Anduin surprisingly close to its ancient foe of Mordor against which there was a need to be constantly vigilant. Gondor was a relatively small, tightly knit kingdom whose key lands were focused around Ithilien yet vulnerable to the Haradrim to the south and Mordor to the east. Yes, it claimed dominion over great stretches of land to the west of the southern facing side of the White Mountains but from what we can tell, these were sparsely populated lands with little strategic or commercial value to the Kings and Stewards of Gondor who regarded the region most directly under the view of the White City as the heart of the kingdom. The only exception ti this rule being Dol Amroth which is a vital princedom but comparatively far away from the capital. Arnor, by contrast, was one vast, unbroken series of rolling fields as far as the eye could see. Unlike the White Mountains of Gondor, there was no natural impediment to Fornost’s rule for as Elrond once said, it was possible in the Elder Days for a squirrel to travel from Rivendell to the Grey Havens across the treetops without ever touching the ground. The trees were felled by the time of men, but that vast unstoppableness of the land remained. It was impossible for Fornost to manage a centralised government like Osgiliath or Minas Tirith since the population was too vast and spread out to be neatly controlled by one monarch and, more importantly, the land was so vast that it was possible for regional powers to become as powerful as the King in Fornost as he could not enforce his will as effectively as a local Lord could, let alone the King of Gondor. Additionally, besides the Elves and Dwarves occasionally causing problems, Arnor had no natural enemies until the rise of Angmar caught them completely by surprise. It led the Dunedain to develop a culture of personal infighting as they had the luxury to do so whereas Gondor had a culture always focused on honour and discipline as they were always aware of the enemies on their borders ensuring that they could not be lax or unprepared should the enemy ever seek to take advantage of their small, easily crossable borders that would put the foe within spitting distance of the capital. Yet Arnor, by contrast, could sustain invasions for centuries without them ever reaching Fornost, as even the Witch King could not march on Fornost quickly or easily, but Fornost’s deep entrenchment in its own borders proved to be its undoing in the long term whereas the proximity of Minas Tirith to its own borders ironically proved to be its salvation as the urge to defend it was quick and instant. Overall, there are a series of obvious geographic factors that informed the political development of these Kingdoms and what caused them to be the different places they were which goes a way to explain why one fell to the forces of darkness whereas the other did not.
A very good points. I would add the problem of climate.The northern parts of Arnor were pretty bleak--its northern boundary was with the lands of the "ice men," who resemble the Inuit or other Arctic peoples. The Shire, protected by the downs, has a pretty mild climate (like that of southern England), but the Wilderness obviously does not. The vast stretch from the Misty Mountains across to the sea is mostly pretty bleak. Probably not great arable land or climate conducive to agriculture except in smallish areas. Probably mostly rangeland, much like the northern Plains and prairies of North America before the European farmers plowed up the grasslands. As Frodo and Sam move south through Ithilien, the weather becomes warmer, the vegetation lusher, and the whole feel more "Mediterranean." It was obviously a more pleasant environment.
Gondor was initially large as well, but they managed to either abandon frontier areas completely or created buffer vassal states (Rohan) in there and consolidated their own defense in Gondor's heartland. Overall I would say that Gondor just had more luck with better rulers and Witch-king targeting Arnor first.
It echoes the Western Roman Empire and the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire. But also echoes the collapse of Charlemagne's empire woth the splitting of Arnor in three. Also fun fact, there was a time period where Charlemagne could have married the Byzantine Empress Irene as there was with Arvedui and Firiel.
Yeah but Irene also blinded her own son and usurped the throne so if Karl married her, there's a non-zero chance that he would have awakened with a knife in his back.
@@NathanS__ Not saying it is 100 percent, also Gondor rejecting Arvedui's claim is also reflective of Constantinople rejecting Charlemagne's title as Western Roman Emperor.
Sadly the Roman and Byzantine empires were both rife with betrayal and infighting. I just finished the book 1453 and even up to the final defeat of the Byzantines there was infighting. Seems like something that inherently happens to human civilizations after too long, they just start rotting from the inside
Gondor also had very strong natural barriers to invasion in the White Mountains, the Anduin River, and the ocean to the south, whereas Arnor was much more geographically open to invasion.
How? There were only two ports, and the way into Arnor was either through the Gap, over the mountains, or through the passage between the Misty Mountains and Grey Mountains.
I may have to disagree with you here. I remember Gil Galad mentioning to the numenorians before they turn against the elves tht the misty mountains is their barrier against the attacks of sauron. So it may not lack natural bariers.
It was certainly open to attack from Angmar, the main threat to Arnor. Presumably peoples from the east could have invaded by a route north of the main Misty Mountains, just south of Angmar, if in league with the Witch King.
Interesting video and great insights on this topics. Here is are interesting ideas for a What if videos: 1. What if Arnor never fell? 2. What if Arnor remained united like Gondor? 3. What if Earnur was declared the king of both Gondor and Arnor?
I think another very relevant point is that with the deaths of Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion so close together and all the resulting political turmoil coming so soon after the War of the Last Alliance, Gondor and Arnor really split into two separate kingdoms fairly early in their mutual histories. Had that not happened, had there remained one high king over both kingdoms, Arnor would have been in a stronger position. I don't think it would have split into three and I'm not sure Sauron would have ever tried to establish Angmar.
"Men are weak...." It seems even middle earth had its own political problems In way it's reassuring that our own world reflects in this but given the downfall of the north 😬 It does make me wonder how much Saurons plans would have changed had Arnor survived 🤔 If they United they would have been a very powerful ally and serious contender on the map
These strifes and conflicts that occasionaly rose among both Elves and Men in Tolkien lore have always fascinated. Were these strifes the result of Melkor's discord during the Great Music, the result of Morgoth's and Sauron's lies and corruptive power, or were they inherent in these races' nature? Or maybe a mix of two or more of these?
I think mainly due to Melkor, there was an instance in The Silmarillion where it states that Morgoth's first corruption of men left a scar in the race that would never be ceased, so they were always bound to corruption. Sure some of the Edair were not tainted but mostly the seed of the corruption of men was planted early on and only took its toll more and more, specially after Sauron tricks and perversion during the second age. I only not sure with this corruption happened during the great music or was something that happened after, I am more in the side of happening after since it would mean that men were born "pure" which I think it would fit more with Tolkien's believes and in lore text.
In the case of the elves, it must have been due to Melkor's discord, or in the case of the first major conflict between the elves, due to his direct influence. For men it could have been both since they can conduct their affairs outside of the music.
It's interesting that in 1975 T.A. the people of the North lost their kingdom but the line of kings survived while în 2050 T.A.,Gondor lost it's line of kings but the kingdom endured towards the end of the Age
As I stated in an earlier comment I am not college educated, but my education came from being stationed in Europe, The Middle East, and the US. I will say any internal strife comes from mostly political sources, and maybe it also came to being in the northern kingdom. Soviet Premier Nikita Kruschev said of the US that it's down fall will not come from outside sources, but from internal sources. That sounds like what happened here in Arnor, and it's enemies saw this and took advantage of it. Great video!
Its funny how this exact thing you´re talking about already began in the US. Looking at Republicans and Democrats or all these conservative states vs more open ones... Looking at wealth distribution and how many people do not want to fight against it. Or health care, or education, or the right to own a weapon or all this black and white stuff... I don´t want to say that one or the other is right or wrong, but its definitly parting the US quite heavily. It becomes especially more visible since Trump became president- but was there well before him. I´m in fear it may someday lead to another conflict like the american civil war and that would create really really big problems for the world right now.
Its kinda funny how Arnor got split three separate areas, but one of them would later have a new place that would later be formed as the shire by a pair of Hobbit brothers.
@@Enerdhil yeah I'm not sure about that. I can’t believe Amazon would introduce us to the Hobbits way too soon like seriously, they're don't even exist until around the third age. 🙄
I also wonder if the premature death of king Valandur during a time of peace was likely a political assassination, meaning the political issues went back further, even to the time of Valandur.
Tolkien said explicitly that the Dúnedain of the North did mix very little with the Middle Men, at least during and after the time of Elendil, and thus the average numenorean height of 2.13 meters was more common in Arnor. It's said in the Appendices that the Dúnedain were far fewer in number than the Middle men since the very beginning, both in Arnor and in Gondor. Even though Tolkien never specifically mentioned that Gondor was more populous than Arnor, as far as i know, many think it was so, for the chief haven of the Faithful was Pelargir, and the heartlands of Gondor were far closer to the sea, and to many rivers. The folk of Arnor also dwelt closer to rivers, but since the Gwaithuirim which dwelt along the coasts of Minhiriath and Enedwaith might have been hostile to them, fishing could not be a large source of food like in Gondor. Since fishing would not be a common source of food, than the source would be agriculture, but even though Arnor had large and fertile lands such as the future Shire, to have such a limit of arable lands would prevent the large growth of population to an agrarian society. Tolkien said that the Middle Men of Arnor were largely friendly to the Dúnedain and helped Elendil to build and populate the cities and fortresses which he built, but after the devastating loss of manpower during the Last Alliance(which Arnor never recovered, according to Tolkien) the Middle Men became a bit fewer to populate the places built by Elendil, many of them were young and died childless.
@@kauetadaieski3131 yes, if they had remained true to their friendship with the Eldar, then such things would not happen, but after the War of The Last Alliance, men and elves became sundered and did not live as they did before
Arnor always seemed like the greater of the 2 kingdoms, at least in stature during the early days of the realms in exile. Its Arnor that Elendil came to rule and came from the north to demolish the forces of mordor. After the war it’s Isildur who heads north to take up the high kingship as it was seen as the greater realm. It always felt more like the continuation of true Numenor to me compared to Gondor which mingled with the low men and lost that air of majesty the Arnorians had. I think Isildurs death is what really sealed Arnors fate. They lost their promised high king which split the realms and lead to the severe decline, as well as the enormous military commitment they made to the south.
Very interesting video! Arnor's fall is very cool and reminiscent of the Fall of the Western Roman Empire and the division of Charlemagne's Empire. Maybe "What if Gandalf found out Bilbo had the ring earlier"?
Great video, the tragic fall of the Kingdom of Arnor is in my impression Tolkien's take and inspiration from so many real life medieval political downfalls, actually I would love an adaptation of the early third age focusing on the troubles the realms in exile had after the great numenoreans kings of the past died and their descedants were not up to the job of maintaning the greatness of such realms.
thoughts 1- infighting apart, it is curious to note that the witch king felled arnor with most have been much smaller forces than what we later saw in the south against Gondor. 2- interesting that Tolkien has some thematic consistency even when we are talking about the history of kingdoms: the bigger, stronger realm felled where the smaller one kept united and standing. 3- this is not completely acurate but it comes to mind: both kingdoms most likely had to try to be self suficient. they were so far apart that commmerce between them must be hard. Arnor had elves and dwarves on each side so could engage in trade but not realistically expand their territory to ocupy the minds militaristic types.
This channel inspires me so much to make content. I finally finished school this year and now I can start my Channel after the stressful exams. The messages you use at the end of your videos are inspiring and I will probably use them in my Higher English essay for inspiration as I want to do it on Tolkien’s works. Great video as always!
My idea on why Arnor is weaker than Gondor is simply based on geography... Gondor having the Anduin passing though its entirety makes it easier for Gondor to transport goods, supplies and armies around quickly while also functioning like an impregnable bulwark against attacks... This advantages is shown during the siege of Minas Tirith and Osgiliath.
I hope WB's "War of the Rohirrim" series goes well so we can get a "Rise of the Witch King" one as well. I think limiting yourself to smaller events in the 2nd and early 3rd of Middle Earth would be a great idea. Each stands on its own, instead of this RoP/Amazon tm.
I always thought the single biggest thing that kept Gondor mostly steady was the fact Mordor was on it border (coupled with other strong external threats) and when Gondor was lax in these it was at its greatest danger!
If I was to look at it from an economic standpoint - most of the large cities of Gondor had ports. That means that trade and travel were achieved much more rapidly. Having ports also opened up trade opportunities to more places throughout Middle Earth. If Middle Earth was a real place I am sure that trade would even occur between Gondor and the eastern port cities when war wasn't underway.
The idea that the northern Dunedain saw mixing with the Middle-men differently from the southern Dunedain is interesting. Eriador was definitely way less populated than Gondor when the faithful landed there, and while Gondor had a civil war over the marriage of one of their kings to a Northwoman, the rebellion was started by the southern lords, who ruled over the lands that were likely the least populated due to their closeness to Harad and Mordor, and among the southern lords at the time was counted Umbar, a city ruled by Black Numenoreans who had a very long history of warring with, enslaving and sacrificing Haradrim and other Middle-men, even though ironically they'd eventually mix with the Haradrim themselves. Aside from them, it seems mixing was rather common among the Gondorians, as we can see by the lifespans of the Gondorians we meet in LOTR, which while long, are not on beyond the range of normal human lifespans, aside from Faramir who died at the age of 120, which is an age some people irl have reached, and that is still very low compared to pure blooded Numenoreans. In Arnor, we can assume such interracial (interethnic?) relations weren't so controversial simply because they happened very rarely of at all. Aragorn for example died at 200 years by pulling that unique Numenorean skill of just laying down and letting his spirit leave his body, and was by all intents and purpouses a 100% full-blooded Numenorean, he could even trace his bloodline all the way back to Beor, almost 7000 years back. Aragorn was born 957 years after the final destruction of Arthedain, and due to the extremely destructive and genocidal nature of the Angmar Wars, after it ended Eriador had been left almost depopulated, with the Dunedain themselves becoming scattered, nomadic rangers, living in secret camps and rarely mingling with the few other peoples left in Eriador, although they did protect them from the Orcs. This means that, among the Dunedain of the north after the fall of Arthedain, mixing with middle-men would've been almost unheard of, as they managed to keep the bloodline pure enough to produce at least Aragorn, even with their ever-dwindling numbers, while their Gondorian equivalent, the Rangers of Ithilien, were much more mixed with the native population. We can even infer the status of the Middle-men in the three successor states of Arnor. Arthedain had the highest population in general, both of Dunedain and Middle-men, and although mixing was almost unheard of (the Bree-men were considered closer to the Dunlendings that to the Dunedain, even though they had been part of Arnor for over a thousand years and had savage wilderness between themselves and Dunland), non-Dunedain were treated well and rather prosperous, as we can see with the Shire and Bree. That spirit of coexistance seems to have mantained itself in Bree, as both men and Hobbits live in that town. Cardolan might have seen some more mixing between natives and westerners, as their barrows, while reminiscent of the ornate, massive tombs of the Gondorians, have a more "primitive" feel to them which might indicate the mixing of both cultures. Plagues and war depopulated Cardolan almost completely, leaving scattered tribes or villages of hunters and fishermen as the only population in the region after the collapse (aside from the rangers), which might mean, contradictively, that the natives (or at least some groups of natives) were instead not integrated but very much separated from Dunedain society, to the point that once Cardolan disappeared, they returned to a lifestyle not too dissimilar from the one their ancestors lived before the Numenoreans first landed on Middle Earth. Rhuadur was definitely the kingdom where the Middle-man population was the highest in relation to the Dunedain, and the one where they were likely the worst treated by the Dunedain, as the local hillsmen eventually not just overthrew the local Dunedain, but completely exterminated all who didn't flee the kingdom. That interethnic animosity seemed to have gone both ways, as eventually the remaining Dunedain from Arthedain and Cardolan completely wiped out the Rhuadur Hillmen.
Man, How many kingdoms are broken apart in Middle Earth?!!! At Least Elessar brings them back together...Like a good king should!!! Thanks, Mellon, for this thoughtful discussion, man Tolkien really cares for the History of Places, before the character we know has those Places...Until Dwarven StrongHolds: 2nd and 3rd Age Edition...Marion Baggins Out!!!
I agree with you, population seems to be the factor that kill the northern kingdom, people would have live near to castles and outside there was huge blocks of empty Land, there was never an idea of a nation as was in Gondor
I've always immediately think of Louis the Pious splitting the Carolingian empire between his three sons and how one was destroyed and the others kinda reformed back into its proper Empire but never the same; when I think of Arnor.
I think the whole problem started after the battle of the gladden fields, which not only caused a lack in leadership but also cut the ties to profitable gondor. Something that probably would not have happend had Isildur or Elendur survived. If we know take into account the loss of men after the war, that now could not be replaced by migration from interested men in the south and boom. You start off with a geographically worse vast land with worse trade and a demographics problem. As soon as the population density dwindled enough for local lords to matter and the split can happen. I don't say that this was irreversible in latter years in fact I believe there were several points in time where the situation could be turned for the better but after fornost fell it was hopeless. That's why Aragorn needed major support from the south to rebuild the kingdom, which now is more like a vassal than an equal kingdom in all but name.
Poor internet service meant that they had too many pauses and outages while attempting to watch Men of the West, which lead to much discord amongst the people of Arnor.
This was very good, and I thank you for it. But pls consider that recorded speech about complex situations sounds very different than being in conversation with friends. Pls consider slowing it down for the rest of us. You have a nice voice - a rarity on RUclips - and there's no need to deprived us of it. Thanks. Liked & subbed.
Great video as usual, but you forget the main inspiration behind the division of the kingdom of Arnor. It is heavily based on the splitting of the Frankish kingdom of Charlemagne in 843 between his three grandsons.
You have to remember that Arnor was founded mostly in Eriador. And despite the millennia since the War of the Elves and Sauron it probably never really recovered from the "desolation" the dark Maiar made it into. There were, of course, the bountiful lands of what would eventually become the Shire but would that have been enough to sustain a large population for such a big kingdom? At the same time, Arnor did not have exclusive access to the actually rich resources available. Chief of these would be mineral resources, which would be under the control of the many Naugrim kingdoms of the northwest of Middle Earth, like Khazad-dum and the wrecked mansions of the Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod, which, if I recall correctly Durin's Folk kind of took over. There really is an implication that Arnor had a far, far smaller population than Gondor. It's hard to sustain power as a nation with a small population base.
I like to point out that after the war of the last alliance the line of anarion was well entrenched in gondor because his son menedil was already a fully fledged king meanwhile after the disaster on gladden fields the throne of arnor passed to isildur's 4th son because his 3 oldest brothers died with their father (one of the reasons why gladden fields was such a disaster), who at the time was underaged and being raised in rivendell which l bet left plenty of room for court intrigues and all that stuff
@@MenoftheWest I agree, as a singulair entity they would have been far better equipped to deal with this outside threat. Funny that numenoreans are seen as these 'super humans' almost but they are just as flawed as normal humans.
If you are talking about the black stone of Orthanc, i would say that Arnor at the time was far away from war and didn't had the need of such strong places. But if you are talking about common forts and towers, there were a lot of them in Arnor.
I like the theory that Arnor’s culture was against interbreeding with middlemen, so for that reason their population dwindled and diminished. That would explain how the cities turned to ghost towns and then of course the Dunedain remaining in the north, as vestiges of the kingdom of old. To me it’s the most compelling theory and also has a subtle lesson in it, such is Tolkien’s way.
While Tolkien apparently stated that he did not intend to make Arnor and Gondor references to the Western (Arnor) and Eastern (Gondor) Roman Empire, the way Arnor fell apart by civil wars while simultaneously invaded by hostile forces does sound like how the Western Empire fell. Even the way Arnor was split into three kingdoms made me think of the breakup of the Carolingian (Charlemagne's) Empire in a few generations.
A question totally irrelevant to this particular video, but with this being your newest one I figure it's most likely to be seen here: Illuvatar told Melkor he can't do anything against Illuvatar's plans to "disrupt the song." But I seem to remember reading somewhere that Illuvatar was at times surprised over what the Valar did, such as Aule's creation of the dwarves, If it's impossible to stray from Illuvatar's plan, how can he be surprised by anything anyone ever does? And why would Melkor even try to do anything against that plan, despite wanting to, if he knows it will all either fail or be part of said plan? I get him wanting to do his own thing, but if it's truly useless to try and Melkor knew that Illuvatar was absolute and all powerful why bother. The snippets we have of the mindset of Melkor/Morgoth, it doesn't seem like he was fulfilling the role of a bad guy because that was the role he was given. Keep up the great work!
Gondor was much warmer and therefore able to support more agriculture and a much larger population. It had numerous rivers with access to the sea and could support much more economic activity. Arnor started off inherently weaker due to geography and climate and never got a chance to become stronger. It had only one river connecting population centres to the sea. It was struck by colder winters as the power of Angmar grew. And sometimes kingdoms just fracture for whatever reason, and if they are under relentless assault when they do, they can't reconstitute a single kingdom.
The way I viewed it was that Arnor's main population centres especially, were in the Northern part of the Kingdom. Their main port was hundreds of miles away to the south west with no major navigable waterway to the capital. This restricted trade with Gondor. Trade by road to Gondor would have been even slower. The population in the southern part of the Kingdom was not large and this will have affected agriculture. The more temperate regions of Arnor ought to have been heavily cultivated to feed the nation and allow for exports generating wealth. Instead most of the population was at higher latitudes which only allowed for a shorter growing season. It likely limited crop choices and diversity. It would also be likely that a surplus for export wouldn't happen every summer. Elven and Dwarf population centres were not large and they were at Arnor's extremities. Eregion, the one large Elven Kingdom, was destroyed by Sauron removing an ally and trading partnership. Building the capital of Arnor on the coast, whether at Tharbad or elsewhere, would have made for a better situation. A great seaport city would have shifted a large part of the population towards warmer climes. It would have enabled better contact with Gondor. I just think Elendil chose poorly when he made Annuminas his capital.
I initially read this as "What made armour weaker than Gondor?" because I never got over the fact that heavily armoured Gondor soldiers get beaten up and killed like nothing in the movies.
Of the Kingdoms of Arnor & Gondor, Arnor had the smaller population. Also disease, breaking Arnor into 3 Kingdoms & the predations of Angmar lead to Arnor's downfall.
It is interesting to make the historical parallel that people must find what it is that unites them to stand together, or focus on what divides them to tear them apart. I wonder if, in a sense, the people of Gondor were more closely bound in part due to their kingdom constantly having an external enemy. History shows that nationalism tends to soar when there is an external threat great enough for all citizens to feel they must defend the way of life of their country. When external threats are less present, divisions tend to occur along internal issues such as economics, rights, social views and others. We see this in many countries today, where the danger lies within and not without.
Well in the Silmarillion Arda is described as being globed amid the void. The sky is also described as being similar in makeup to the ocean with different layers and depths hence Earendil sail across the surface of the heavens. So it seems to me Arda’s sky would be similar to Biblical descriptions of the firmament as the waters above the Earth.
@@hurinthalion5984 Yeah thanks for answering. It's great to hear Jrr Tolkien also took inspiration from Biblical by designing it's world in a similar structure as Yahuah did. I had been hearing alot of should we say overestimating the powers of the Valar and Morgoth for a long time and it was becoming mind numbing so it's great to hear something that rejects the ordinary modern views of the world.
Also Gondor had much more fertile land to sustain a large population, more ports open for trade, I believe Arnor had only two ports Tharbad and Lond Daer.
I don't Arnor was that much weaker than Gondor, I think they were both about the same in strength and size. What ultimately boils down is were the rulers of the lands. Even though Arnor was split into three petty kingdoms if the ruling kings the three brothers had the sense of unity rather than jealousy I think Arnor would've survived. In Gondor, the ruling leaders stayed unified and most of that was due to the Kings at first with them allying with the Eothad and then the House of the Stewards, as said in the Return of the King Appendices that the Stewards in their wisdom created lasting friendships and strides with many folk and lords. which is why Gondor was able to maintain themselves against all manner of enemies and disasters.
Hi people! Where can I find a copy of the picture of Minas Tirith against Mordon that appears at 00:38 secs of the video? I justo love this image and the white radiance the artist has given to the White City
And despite population problems from the very beginning, i believe both the Dúnedain and Middle Men were very numerous, for the population of Númenor itself(according to Nature of Middle Earth) was 15 million, and despite being a minority, the Faithful would still be very numerous in Middle Earth, and they had many years to migrate to Middle Earth(SA. 1200 to S.A. 3319). To think that so many perished during the War of the Last Alliance shows really the scale of the war, and how Old Arnor would never recover, only when Aragorn refounded it.
@@kauetadaieski3131 given the 2000 years they had to settle and multiply or merge with the locals, the Faithful would not be so small in number, they might in fact be in the low millions.
What was obvious to me is they were servants of the Valar, the Elves and a so called deity called "Eru". If they were king's men may of had some real power. Stay awake people and don't forget to praise Ar Pharazôn!
I see so many real world similarities to the history of Arnor and Gondor. The division of Arnor by the kings sons reminds me of Charlemagnes kingdom being divided and becoming Germany and France. Also the western kingdom falling while the eastern kingdom endured and went through periods of expansion but eventually slowly started to decline reminds me of the Roman empire splitting in half. In this scenario the men of Rohan would be the barbarian tribes that settled in Greece and became allies and the easterlings would represent the Turks.
The strife and bitter divisions that became the downfall of Arnor threaten powerful nations today. Politicians and the people who put them in power need to take heed, lest their nation, too, suffer the fate of Arnor.
Still love arnor though. The northern Dunedain stayed true to the old friendships and kept the history alive. To never give up up despite the dwindling numbers. Keeping the line of kings alive
If we use Rome as a base, the Eastern provinces (Gondor) was already settled and produced most of the revenue. The Western provinces (Arnor) had lower population and wealth except Italy were much more impoverished.
"because the borders and autonomy of these three realms split actually quite neatly this must mean that civil problems had been building in Arnor for quite awhile for things to split along such generally clear-cut borders with a few conflicts here and there" That word spaghetti sounds like it's explaining something but I don't think it is. How would you draw a non clear-cut border? What does civil problem have to do with the split. It was just split between three brothers. Presumably some group of counties or the like. There is no evidence of some cultural divide based on what you said.
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You make it sound like Arnor was useless. Don’t forget they held Angmar off at the Weathered Hills for 600 years before Amon Sul fell. And Arthedain still fought (even won some field battles) for hundreds of years after
It was useless, it spilt without Arbor despite having no external enemy, Angmar came later
@@frenchguitarguy1091 Aragorn survived though, as pointed out in the vid.
So it held a significantly smaller realm with a smaller population and inferior army off for hundreds of years? Wow, big achievement
Elendil seems to have founded his kingdom in the north for two reasons: To be as close as possible to Lindon and Gil-Galad’s elves (which largely dissolved following the Last Alliance, depriving Arnor of its primary ally, and that it would be closest geographically to the for island of Numenor, as Elendil often spent his time looking through the last Palantir which is fixed only westward.
The island of Numenor was more Southward than Westward to Arnor. I believe he wanted to gaze at the Undying Lands, which was Westward (in a sense, though it was technically no longer part of Middle Earth by the time of Arnor)
Maybe, just maybe that is where he simply landed when fleeing Numenor and he decided to establish his kingdom via thst way. And yes, it was close to Lindon
Arnor only had one "serviceable" port--Tharbad. After the great flood, Tharbad started to fall into ruin and the bridge collapsed from lack of maintenance. Plus Eriador itself is sort of isolated. We only see two and a half seaports (Vinyalonde is the "half"), there are limited passes over the mountains, Winters can be harsh, and only the Gap of Rohan provides easy access to Eriador. Plus it was just less populated when Elendil came. There's no mention of permanent residents of Tharbad, there might have been villages and homesteads here and there, with Bree being the chief place once the Roads were established. Perhaps that's why the roads crossed in Bree--because it was a waypoint.
There is actually mention about Tharbad being both a port and a fortified town, and the Bridge only fell into decay after the Great Plague as both kingdoms withdrew their garrisons from the town
@@anti-liberalismo Plus there was the flood after the Fell Winter which made most of the land around Tharbad a marsh and swamp.
@@paulwagner688 yes, the Fell Winter devastated the whole land of Minhiriath and made the last inhabitants of Tharbad abandon it, but it came almost 900 years after the fall of arnor.
As for the swamps and marshes, they had been around Tharbad ever since the foundation of Eregion at least, but the Numenóreans drained most of it.
If the Edain prospered in Beleriand, Arnor falling even before the WK is quite embarrasing lol
Eriador is a much better land.
@@kauetadaieski3131 maybe not, for even before the division of Arnor there were:"remnants of men of evil kinds, hostile to the Kings", and the Edain had a long time of peace to thrive and very fertile and rich lands, though Arnor had been at peace after Sauron, still not all of their lands were very good for farming, and the War of The Last Alliance took a heavy toll on their already smaller population.
One major and recurring theme in all of Tolkien's writings is that people must unite and work together in order to defeat the darkness of the world. This kingdom is an example of what happens when that theme isn't followed.
Two points you did not specifically mentioned: Gondor was based on the foundation of existing havens at Pelargir and Umbar, with the surrounding lands already peopled (maybe even with some Numenoreans. In contrast, Arnor was built mostly in the wilderness of Eregion, which had seen a far smaller Numenorean influence (beyond Tharbad). Elendil landed there with 4 ships, whilst his sons had 5 in the south.
Secondly, whilst both Arnor and Gondor lost many men in the War of the Last Alliance, Arnor's losses may have been more severe due to the Disaster of the Gladden Fields, where Isildur fell. This loss close to the beginning of the realm, may have left relative weakness in Arnor, compared to Gondor.
Well said!
To be honest, Arnor was built around the diminished but not small populations and settlements of the Dúnedain and Middle Men around the North Downs, the Barrow Downs and between the rivers Lhûn and Baranduin. All those regions had a lot of Numenórean influence.
As for your second point, you are totally right. The losses might have been in the tens of thousands, and many were young and childless men.
@@anti-liberalismo I always thought that the disaster of Gladden Fields was just Isildur and his immediate retinue being ambushed. I figured it wouldn’t have been more than a few hundred men, after all, they had just crushed Sauron in the war of the last alliance and probably felt confident to travel in safety.
@@slimdiddyd yes, Tolkien said Isildur just had 200 knights and fought against 2000 orcs.
Can you further clarify the Gladden Fields issue and Isildurs death? As far as I remember, there were only 200 soldiers slained, including Isildurs sons. What do you think how much these men embodied in percentage of the overall army of Arnor? They probably had at least a couple thousands of soldiers. 5-7k I would guess. But I don't have knowledge that goes deeper into the subject, because I never was really researching the history of Arnor.
The great plague also tore through both kingdoms and severely thinned the already waning Numenorean blood. As I recall, Tharbad effectively became deserted even though it was a strategic port city in the west
Yes, and to make it worse the Numenóreans still lived long lifes.
@@anti-liberalismoJesus, imagine loosing a loved one while they were young and had so much time ahead of them…
This is a lesson for all Parents: Always Write Up a Will! Especially if you're a King and have three sons in which two of them are very petty, jealous and greedy. Cannot emphasize this enough people lol.
Also if you have three daughters, two of whom are greedy and ambitious and only one of whom really loves you--but, alas, doesn't have the tact or dishonesty to flatter you and feed your vanity.
@Joshua Lowe Interesting thought. Maybe so yeah 👍
@Joshua Lowe 2 of Charlemagne’s sons died before he himself did. It was Charlemagne’s surviving son and heir Louis who split the empire into 3 for _his_ 3 sons, who were Charlemagne’s *grand* sons.
What's most obvious to me, is that the fragmentation of Arnor is based on what happened to Charlemagne's empire after he died, when the kingdom was split up among his children/heirs because the custom of "primogeniture" had not evolved yet. This was an historical tragedy that was likely well known to Tolkien's readers, and the analogy would have been easily seen.
Yes, I have always thought that. Tolkien did create a world with some similarities to our own--perhaps to show that history tends to repeat itself (or that there are only a few ways in which human civilizations can arise and evolve--and die) and perhaps to show the reader that this really is our world, only in an earlier age. Minas Tirith seems to echo Constantinople, particularly in its later years of Byzantium, when it was menaced by the various peoples pressing in on the Eastern Roman Empire from the east. (The mention of the wain riders in the Appendix definitely brings to mind the various nomads of the Asian steppes sweeping into Europe.) If Gondor is the Eastern Empire, then Arnor is the Western, which in our world fell apart centuries before the Western was reduced to one fortress city with a dwindling territory around it, finally falling in the siege of the Ottoman Turks.
Charlemagne's Empire actually survived for another generation because all of his legitimate sons except Louis the Pious died before him. Louis however splitted the Empire between his sons Lothaire, Louis the German and Charles the Bald. Louis the German inherited the Kingdom of East Francia, Charles the Bald inherited the Kingdom of West Francia and Lothaire inherited a buffer zone between those Kingdoms called Lotharingia as well as the title of Emporer
@@elainechubb971 On the other hand, the charge of the Rohirrim is said to be based on the Polish cavalry charge against those same Ottomans at Vienna in 1683, so the historical parallels continue, even if they are heavily remixed.
Though Tolkien would urge you not to conflate analogy and applicability.
@@lesserson2182 Though inspiration is not the same as allegory.
I think the biggest weakness Arnor had was its geography. Eriador was an isolated area compared to Gondor so it had less trade and it’s only neighbours were the mostly isolationist elves of the grey havens and Rivendell. Also the more northerly middle men have past grievances against Numenorians and were already predisposed to turn against them. Also where as Gondor was always tried in the fire of war Arnor had almost no conflicts after the end of the second age and was unprepared for Angmar wars. As someone else pointed out Arnor’s only port was Tharbad and the greyflood likely froze over in the winter further limiting opportunities for communication between the two kingdoms. Isolation, declining prosperity, and a lack of external conflicts were probably the contributing factors to cause the division with in the kingdom.
Well, Tharbad wasn't likely Arnor's only port, but maybe the most important one.
I agree, and to add to this, there is a clear geographical centre of power & population in Gondor which just isn't present in Arnor. Most of Gondor's population lived on either side of the Anduin: in Anorien, Ithilien and Lebennin, where there are clear lines of communication, providing a solid base for the kings to spread their influence north, south, and west. From the little that we know of it, Arnor's population seems to have been pretty widely distributed, with the main cities of Annuminas, Fornost, Bree and Tharbad separated by huge distances.
@@KaiserMacCleg exactly, Arnor was just too isolated and internally divided
I think that also, like a lot of why political divisions occur, geography plays a surprisingly vital role.
Gondor is a Kingdom built around the White Mountains, one of its key fortresses at Minas Tirith literally built into the mountains with its original capital not far away on the river Anduin surprisingly close to its ancient foe of Mordor against which there was a need to be constantly vigilant. Gondor was a relatively small, tightly knit kingdom whose key lands were focused around Ithilien yet vulnerable to the Haradrim to the south and Mordor to the east. Yes, it claimed dominion over great stretches of land to the west of the southern facing side of the White Mountains but from what we can tell, these were sparsely populated lands with little strategic or commercial value to the Kings and Stewards of Gondor who regarded the region most directly under the view of the White City as the heart of the kingdom. The only exception ti this rule being Dol Amroth which is a vital princedom but comparatively far away from the capital.
Arnor, by contrast, was one vast, unbroken series of rolling fields as far as the eye could see. Unlike the White Mountains of Gondor, there was no natural impediment to Fornost’s rule for as Elrond once said, it was possible in the Elder Days for a squirrel to travel from Rivendell to the Grey Havens across the treetops without ever touching the ground. The trees were felled by the time of men, but that vast unstoppableness of the land remained. It was impossible for Fornost to manage a centralised government like Osgiliath or Minas Tirith since the population was too vast and spread out to be neatly controlled by one monarch and, more importantly, the land was so vast that it was possible for regional powers to become as powerful as the King in Fornost as he could not enforce his will as effectively as a local Lord could, let alone the King of Gondor. Additionally, besides the Elves and Dwarves occasionally causing problems, Arnor had no natural enemies until the rise of Angmar caught them completely by surprise. It led the Dunedain to develop a culture of personal infighting as they had the luxury to do so whereas Gondor had a culture always focused on honour and discipline as they were always aware of the enemies on their borders ensuring that they could not be lax or unprepared should the enemy ever seek to take advantage of their small, easily crossable borders that would put the foe within spitting distance of the capital. Yet Arnor, by contrast, could sustain invasions for centuries without them ever reaching Fornost, as even the Witch King could not march on Fornost quickly or easily, but Fornost’s deep entrenchment in its own borders proved to be its undoing in the long term whereas the proximity of Minas Tirith to its own borders ironically proved to be its salvation as the urge to defend it was quick and instant.
Overall, there are a series of obvious geographic factors that informed the political development of these Kingdoms and what caused them to be the different places they were which goes a way to explain why one fell to the forces of darkness whereas the other did not.
A very good points. I would add the problem of climate.The northern parts of Arnor were pretty bleak--its northern boundary was with the lands of the "ice men," who resemble the Inuit or other Arctic peoples. The Shire, protected by the downs, has a pretty mild climate (like that of southern England), but the Wilderness obviously does not. The vast stretch from the Misty Mountains across to the sea is mostly pretty bleak. Probably not great arable land or climate conducive to agriculture except in smallish areas. Probably mostly rangeland, much like the northern Plains and prairies of North America before the European farmers plowed up the grasslands. As Frodo and Sam move south through Ithilien, the weather becomes warmer, the vegetation lusher, and the whole feel more "Mediterranean." It was obviously a more pleasant environment.
Gondor was initially large as well, but they managed to either abandon frontier areas completely or created buffer vassal states (Rohan) in there and consolidated their own defense in Gondor's heartland. Overall I would say that Gondor just had more luck with better rulers and Witch-king targeting Arnor first.
It echoes the Western Roman Empire and the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire. But also echoes the collapse of Charlemagne's empire woth the splitting of Arnor in three. Also fun fact, there was a time period where Charlemagne could have married the Byzantine Empress Irene as there was with Arvedui and Firiel.
Yeah but Irene also blinded her own son and usurped the throne so if Karl married her, there's a non-zero chance that he would have awakened with a knife in his back.
@@NathanS__ Not saying it is 100 percent, also Gondor rejecting Arvedui's claim is also reflective of Constantinople rejecting Charlemagne's title as Western Roman Emperor.
Sadly the Roman and Byzantine empires were both rife with betrayal and infighting. I just finished the book 1453 and even up to the final defeat of the Byzantines there was infighting. Seems like something that inherently happens to human civilizations after too long, they just start rotting from the inside
@@Liquidsback Of course the difference is that Arnor actually had a claim heyoooo
Gondor also had very strong natural barriers to invasion in the White Mountains, the Anduin River, and the ocean to the south, whereas Arnor was much more geographically open to invasion.
How? There were only two ports, and the way into Arnor was either through the Gap, over the mountains, or through the passage between the Misty Mountains and Grey Mountains.
I may have to disagree with you here. I remember Gil Galad mentioning to the numenorians before they turn against the elves tht the misty mountains is their barrier against the attacks of sauron. So it may not lack natural bariers.
It was certainly open to attack from Angmar, the main threat to Arnor. Presumably peoples from the east could have invaded by a route north of the main Misty Mountains, just south of Angmar, if in league with the Witch King.
Interesting video and great insights on this topics. Here is are interesting ideas for a What if videos:
1. What if Arnor never fell?
2. What if Arnor remained united like Gondor?
3. What if Earnur was declared the king of both Gondor and Arnor?
United we stand. Divided we fall.
I really appreciate how you bring the videos into what we can learn and improve ourselves to be better people
I think another very relevant point is that with the deaths of Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion so close together and all the resulting political turmoil coming so soon after the War of the Last Alliance, Gondor and Arnor really split into two separate kingdoms fairly early in their mutual histories. Had that not happened, had there remained one high king over both kingdoms, Arnor would have been in a stronger position. I don't think it would have split into three and I'm not sure Sauron would have ever tried to establish Angmar.
Well said!
"Men are weak...."
It seems even middle earth had its own political problems
In way it's reassuring that our own world reflects in this but given the downfall of the north 😬
It does make me wonder how much Saurons plans would have changed had Arnor survived 🤔
If they United they would have been a very powerful ally and serious contender on the map
These strifes and conflicts that occasionaly rose among both Elves and Men in Tolkien lore have always fascinated.
Were these strifes the result of Melkor's discord during the Great Music, the result of Morgoth's and Sauron's lies and corruptive power, or were they inherent in these races' nature? Or maybe a mix of two or more of these?
I think mainly due to Melkor, there was an instance in The Silmarillion where it states that Morgoth's first corruption of men left a scar in the race that would never be ceased, so they were always bound to corruption. Sure some of the Edair were not tainted but mostly the seed of the corruption of men was planted early on and only took its toll more and more, specially after Sauron tricks and perversion during the second age. I only not sure with this corruption happened during the great music or was something that happened after, I am more in the side of happening after since it would mean that men were born "pure" which I think it would fit more with Tolkien's believes and in lore text.
In the case of the elves, it must have been due to Melkor's discord, or in the case of the first major conflict between the elves, due to his direct influence. For men it could have been both since they can conduct their affairs outside of the music.
A mix of the two
It's interesting that in 1975 T.A. the people of the North lost their kingdom but the line of kings survived while în 2050 T.A.,Gondor lost it's line of kings but the kingdom endured towards the end of the Age
As I stated in an earlier comment I am not college educated, but my education came from being stationed in Europe, The Middle East, and the US. I will say any internal strife comes from mostly political sources, and maybe it also came to being in the northern kingdom. Soviet Premier Nikita Kruschev said of the US that it's down fall will not come from outside sources, but from internal sources. That sounds like what happened here in Arnor, and it's enemies saw this and took advantage of it. Great video!
Its funny how this exact thing you´re talking about already began in the US. Looking at Republicans and Democrats or all these conservative states vs more open ones... Looking at wealth distribution and how many people do not want to fight against it. Or health care, or education, or the right to own a weapon or all this black and white stuff...
I don´t want to say that one or the other is right or wrong, but its definitly parting the US quite heavily. It becomes especially more visible since Trump became president- but was there well before him. I´m in fear it may someday lead to another conflict like the american civil war and that would create really really big problems for the world right now.
Its kinda funny how Arnor got split three separate areas, but one of them would later have a new place that would later be formed as the shire by a pair of Hobbit brothers.
@@Enerdhil yeah I'm not sure about that. I can’t believe Amazon would introduce us to the Hobbits way too soon like seriously, they're don't even exist until around the third age. 🙄
@@Enerdhil That right there is what I'm more concerned about for the upcoming Rings of Power series. 😒
I also wonder if the premature death of king Valandur during a time of peace was likely a political assassination, meaning the political issues went back further, even to the time of Valandur.
Yes, it could be a problem with the ethnicities of the kingdom
Tolkien said explicitly that the Dúnedain of the North did mix very little with the Middle Men, at least during and after the time of Elendil, and thus the average numenorean height of 2.13 meters was more common in Arnor.
It's said in the Appendices that the Dúnedain were far fewer in number than the Middle men since the very beginning, both in Arnor and in Gondor.
Even though Tolkien never specifically mentioned that Gondor was more populous than Arnor, as far as i know, many think it was so, for the chief haven of the Faithful was Pelargir, and the heartlands of Gondor were far closer to the sea, and to many rivers. The folk of Arnor also dwelt closer to rivers, but since the Gwaithuirim which dwelt along the coasts of Minhiriath and Enedwaith might have been hostile to them, fishing could not be a large source of food like in Gondor. Since fishing would not be a common source of food, than the source would be agriculture, but even though Arnor had large and fertile lands such as the future Shire, to have such a limit of arable lands would prevent the large growth of population to an agrarian society.
Tolkien said that the Middle Men of Arnor were largely friendly to the Dúnedain and helped Elendil to build and populate the cities and fortresses which he built, but after the devastating loss of manpower during the Last Alliance(which Arnor never recovered, according to Tolkien) the Middle Men became a bit fewer to populate the places built by Elendil, many of them were young and died childless.
A correction: Tolkien did indeed say explicitly that Gondor was more populous and powerful than Arnor
I think with all those Eldar around them they could have prospered, but they did fight each-other at some point and separated.
@@kauetadaieski3131 yes, if they had remained true to their friendship with the Eldar, then such things would not happen, but after the War of The Last Alliance, men and elves became sundered and did not live as they did before
Arnor always seemed like the greater of the 2 kingdoms, at least in stature during the early days of the realms in exile. Its Arnor that Elendil came to rule and came from the north to demolish the forces of mordor. After the war it’s Isildur who heads north to take up the high kingship as it was seen as the greater realm. It always felt more like the continuation of true Numenor to me compared to Gondor which mingled with the low men and lost that air of majesty the Arnorians had. I think Isildurs death is what really sealed Arnors fate. They lost their promised high king which split the realms and lead to the severe decline, as well as the enormous military commitment they made to the south.
Very interesting video! Arnor's fall is very cool and reminiscent of the Fall of the Western Roman Empire and the division of Charlemagne's Empire.
Maybe "What if Gandalf found out Bilbo had the ring earlier"?
Great video, the tragic fall of the Kingdom of Arnor is in my impression Tolkien's take and inspiration from so many real life medieval political downfalls, actually I would love an adaptation of the early third age focusing on the troubles the realms in exile had after the great numenoreans kings of the past died and their descedants were not up to the job of maintaning the greatness of such realms.
thoughts
1- infighting apart, it is curious to note that the witch king felled arnor with most have been much smaller forces than what we later saw in the south against Gondor.
2- interesting that Tolkien has some thematic consistency even when we are talking about the history of kingdoms: the bigger, stronger realm felled where the smaller one kept united and standing.
3- this is not completely acurate but it comes to mind: both kingdoms most likely had to try to be self suficient. they were so far apart that commmerce between them must be hard. Arnor had elves and dwarves on each side so could engage in trade but not realistically expand their territory to ocupy the minds militaristic types.
This channel inspires me so much to make content. I finally finished school this year and now I can start my Channel after the stressful exams. The messages you use at the end of your videos are inspiring and I will probably use them in my Higher English essay for inspiration as I want to do it on Tolkien’s works. Great video as always!
would be cool to see a film or series on the angmar wars
There is. Go play the game
@@goodputin4324 could u be a lil more specific lol? Which game?
My idea on why Arnor is weaker than Gondor is simply based on geography... Gondor having the Anduin passing though its entirety makes it easier for Gondor to transport goods, supplies and armies around quickly while also functioning like an impregnable bulwark against attacks... This advantages is shown during the siege of Minas Tirith and Osgiliath.
I hope WB's "War of the Rohirrim" series goes well so we can get a "Rise of the Witch King" one as well. I think limiting yourself to smaller events in the 2nd and early 3rd of Middle Earth would be a great idea. Each stands on its own, instead of this RoP/Amazon tm.
I always thought the single biggest thing that kept Gondor mostly steady was the fact Mordor was on it border (coupled with other strong external threats) and when Gondor was lax in these it was at its greatest danger!
If I was to look at it from an economic standpoint - most of the large cities of Gondor had ports. That means that trade and travel were achieved much more rapidly. Having ports also opened up trade opportunities to more places throughout Middle Earth. If Middle Earth was a real place I am sure that trade would even occur between Gondor and the eastern port cities when war wasn't underway.
The idea that the northern Dunedain saw mixing with the Middle-men differently from the southern Dunedain is interesting. Eriador was definitely way less populated than Gondor when the faithful landed there, and while Gondor had a civil war over the marriage of one of their kings to a Northwoman, the rebellion was started by the southern lords, who ruled over the lands that were likely the least populated due to their closeness to Harad and Mordor, and among the southern lords at the time was counted Umbar, a city ruled by Black Numenoreans who had a very long history of warring with, enslaving and sacrificing Haradrim and other Middle-men, even though ironically they'd eventually mix with the Haradrim themselves. Aside from them, it seems mixing was rather common among the Gondorians, as we can see by the lifespans of the Gondorians we meet in LOTR, which while long, are not on beyond the range of normal human lifespans, aside from Faramir who died at the age of 120, which is an age some people irl have reached, and that is still very low compared to pure blooded Numenoreans.
In Arnor, we can assume such interracial (interethnic?) relations weren't so controversial simply because they happened very rarely of at all. Aragorn for example died at 200 years by pulling that unique Numenorean skill of just laying down and letting his spirit leave his body, and was by all intents and purpouses a 100% full-blooded Numenorean, he could even trace his bloodline all the way back to Beor, almost 7000 years back. Aragorn was born 957 years after the final destruction of Arthedain, and due to the extremely destructive and genocidal nature of the Angmar Wars, after it ended Eriador had been left almost depopulated, with the Dunedain themselves becoming scattered, nomadic rangers, living in secret camps and rarely mingling with the few other peoples left in Eriador, although they did protect them from the Orcs. This means that, among the Dunedain of the north after the fall of Arthedain, mixing with middle-men would've been almost unheard of, as they managed to keep the bloodline pure enough to produce at least Aragorn, even with their ever-dwindling numbers, while their Gondorian equivalent, the Rangers of Ithilien, were much more mixed with the native population.
We can even infer the status of the Middle-men in the three successor states of Arnor.
Arthedain had the highest population in general, both of Dunedain and Middle-men, and although mixing was almost unheard of (the Bree-men were considered closer to the Dunlendings that to the Dunedain, even though they had been part of Arnor for over a thousand years and had savage wilderness between themselves and Dunland), non-Dunedain were treated well and rather prosperous, as we can see with the Shire and Bree. That spirit of coexistance seems to have mantained itself in Bree, as both men and Hobbits live in that town.
Cardolan might have seen some more mixing between natives and westerners, as their barrows, while reminiscent of the ornate, massive tombs of the Gondorians, have a more "primitive" feel to them which might indicate the mixing of both cultures. Plagues and war depopulated Cardolan almost completely, leaving scattered tribes or villages of hunters and fishermen as the only population in the region after the collapse (aside from the rangers), which might mean, contradictively, that the natives (or at least some groups of natives) were instead not integrated but very much separated from Dunedain society, to the point that once Cardolan disappeared, they returned to a lifestyle not too dissimilar from the one their ancestors lived before the Numenoreans first landed on Middle Earth.
Rhuadur was definitely the kingdom where the Middle-man population was the highest in relation to the Dunedain, and the one where they were likely the worst treated by the Dunedain, as the local hillsmen eventually not just overthrew the local Dunedain, but completely exterminated all who didn't flee the kingdom. That interethnic animosity seemed to have gone both ways, as eventually the remaining Dunedain from Arthedain and Cardolan completely wiped out the Rhuadur Hillmen.
Man, How many kingdoms are broken apart in Middle Earth?!!! At Least Elessar brings them back together...Like a good king should!!!
Thanks, Mellon, for this thoughtful discussion, man Tolkien really cares for the History of Places, before the character we know has those Places...Until Dwarven StrongHolds: 2nd and 3rd Age Edition...Marion Baggins Out!!!
Good choice w/bg music!
I agree with you, population seems to be the factor that kill the northern kingdom, people would have live near to castles and outside there was huge blocks of empty Land, there was never an idea of a nation as was in Gondor
I've always immediately think of Louis the Pious splitting the Carolingian empire between his three sons and how one was destroyed and the others kinda reformed back into its proper Empire but never the same; when I think of Arnor.
You are a geneous for coming up with all these videos and their topics.
Great video!!!
The size of the kingdom was not the problem, the greed and jealousy of its leaders was.
And also the population, and lack of access to ports, and also the presence of a large and active hostile power.
The appendices remains my favorite part of return of the king so much lore and history pack in the back of the book
As always, great video on the lore of Arda! The comments for this video are great.
I think the whole problem started after the battle of the gladden fields, which not only caused a lack in leadership but also cut the ties to profitable gondor. Something that probably would not have happend had Isildur or Elendur survived. If we know take into account the loss of men after the war, that now could not be replaced by migration from interested men in the south and boom.
You start off with a geographically worse vast land with worse trade and a demographics problem. As soon as the population density dwindled enough for local lords to matter and the split can happen. I don't say that this was irreversible in latter years in fact I believe there were several points in time where the situation could be turned for the better but after fornost fell it was hopeless. That's why Aragorn needed major support from the south to rebuild the kingdom, which now is more like a vassal than an equal kingdom in all but name.
Poor internet service meant that they had too many pauses and outages while attempting to watch Men of the West, which lead to much discord amongst the people of Arnor.
This was very good, and I thank you for it. But pls consider that recorded speech about complex situations sounds very different than being in conversation with friends. Pls consider slowing it down for the rest of us. You have a nice voice - a rarity on RUclips - and there's no need to deprived us of it. Thanks. Liked & subbed.
Great video as usual, but you forget the main inspiration behind the division of the kingdom of Arnor.
It is heavily based on the splitting of the Frankish kingdom of Charlemagne in 843 between his three grandsons.
Would very much like it if you did another channel with similar style but about real world history.
Arnor was conceived to be more powerful than Gondor. After all, it was founded by Elendil himself.
Well, not really, Arnor was never as powerful and populous as Gondor, as mentioned in HoME
It was the most powerful Northern realm but it never surpassed Gondor. Gondor at its peak was a reflection of the glory of Numenor itself.
You have to remember that Arnor was founded mostly in Eriador. And despite the millennia since the War of the Elves and Sauron it probably never really recovered from the "desolation" the dark Maiar made it into.
There were, of course, the bountiful lands of what would eventually become the Shire but would that have been enough to sustain a large population for such a big kingdom?
At the same time, Arnor did not have exclusive access to the actually rich resources available. Chief of these would be mineral resources, which would be under the control of the many Naugrim kingdoms of the northwest of Middle Earth, like Khazad-dum and the wrecked mansions of the Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod, which, if I recall correctly Durin's Folk kind of took over.
There really is an implication that Arnor had a far, far smaller population than Gondor. It's hard to sustain power as a nation with a small population base.
I like to point out that after the war of the last alliance the line of anarion was well entrenched in gondor because his son menedil was already a fully fledged king meanwhile after the disaster on gladden fields the throne of arnor passed to isildur's 4th son because his 3 oldest brothers died with their father (one of the reasons why gladden fields was such a disaster), who at the time was underaged and being raised in rivendell which l bet left plenty of room for court intrigues and all that stuff
It seems strange that Arnor had no coastal cities/ ports between the mouths of the Greyflood and the Brandywine.
You are wise in the ways of court and geography and a true Captain.
Diversity was not Arnor's strength!
It never is
I think a comparison of their Palantir browser history would tell
Another well done video friend!
I reported it but looks like you got the big time b/c there's a spam bot with the new logo as their avatar in the comments
If Arnor would not have been divided in 3 petty kingdoms would they have been able to resist the witch-king?
Great question! I think if they had solved their internal issues and remained whole, they could’ve resisted Angmar far more.
@@MenoftheWest I agree, as a singulair entity they would have been far better equipped to deal with this outside threat. Funny that numenoreans are seen as these 'super humans' almost but they are just as flawed as normal humans.
Thanks guys
If the Numenoreans made Orthanc, then why weren't there similar towers in Arnor?
Amon Sul and various watchtowers that were unnamed
@@paulwagner688 Amon Sul doesn't seem to have the indestructible qualities of Orthanc. Also, even though Arnor fell, towers like Orthanc would remain
If you are talking about the black stone of Orthanc, i would say that Arnor at the time was far away from war and didn't had the need of such strong places. But if you are talking about common forts and towers, there were a lot of them in Arnor.
1:05
So the moral of the story is “Don’t have large families?” 😂
Lol 😂
"let the past die, kill it, if you have to" -Tolkien according to Amazon
Great comment, i believe that Elendil would never say such a thing.
Aragorn restablished the line of the Kings to restore Gondor's might.
It was weaker because it didn’t have Denathor in charge! Too soon? Probably….
I like the theory that Arnor’s culture was against interbreeding with middlemen, so for that reason their population dwindled and diminished. That would explain how the cities turned to ghost towns and then of course the Dunedain remaining in the north, as vestiges of the kingdom of old. To me it’s the most compelling theory and also has a subtle lesson in it, such is Tolkien’s way.
While Tolkien apparently stated that he did not intend to make Arnor and Gondor references to the Western (Arnor) and Eastern (Gondor) Roman Empire, the way Arnor fell apart by civil wars while simultaneously invaded by hostile forces does sound like how the Western Empire fell. Even the way Arnor was split into three kingdoms made me think of the breakup of the Carolingian (Charlemagne's) Empire in a few generations.
The siege of Minas Tirith seems inspired by the siege of Constantinople (East), but just the same by the siege of Vienna (West).
A question totally irrelevant to this particular video, but with this being your newest one I figure it's most likely to be seen here: Illuvatar told Melkor he can't do anything against Illuvatar's plans to "disrupt the song." But I seem to remember reading somewhere that Illuvatar was at times surprised over what the Valar did, such as Aule's creation of the dwarves, If it's impossible to stray from Illuvatar's plan, how can he be surprised by anything anyone ever does? And why would Melkor even try to do anything against that plan, despite wanting to, if he knows it will all either fail or be part of said plan? I get him wanting to do his own thing, but if it's truly useless to try and Melkor knew that Illuvatar was absolute and all powerful why bother. The snippets we have of the mindset of Melkor/Morgoth, it doesn't seem like he was fulfilling the role of a bad guy because that was the role he was given.
Keep up the great work!
Gondor was much warmer and therefore able to support more agriculture and a much larger population. It had numerous rivers with access to the sea and could support much more economic activity.
Arnor started off inherently weaker due to geography and climate and never got a chance to become stronger. It had only one river connecting population centres to the sea. It was struck by colder winters as the power of Angmar grew. And sometimes kingdoms just fracture for whatever reason, and if they are under relentless assault when they do, they can't reconstitute a single kingdom.
Great video.
Could you make one about the lands west of Arnor?
The way I viewed it was that Arnor's main population centres especially, were in the Northern part of the Kingdom.
Their main port was hundreds of miles away to the south west with no major navigable waterway to the capital.
This restricted trade with Gondor.
Trade by road to Gondor would have been even slower.
The population in the southern part of the Kingdom was not large and this will have affected agriculture.
The more temperate regions of Arnor ought to have been heavily cultivated to feed the nation and allow for exports generating wealth.
Instead most of the population was at higher latitudes which only allowed for a shorter growing season.
It likely limited crop choices and diversity. It would also be likely that a surplus for export wouldn't happen every summer.
Elven and Dwarf population centres were not large and they were at Arnor's extremities. Eregion, the one large Elven Kingdom, was destroyed by Sauron removing an ally and trading partnership.
Building the capital of Arnor on the coast, whether at Tharbad or elsewhere, would have made for a better situation.
A great seaport city would have shifted a large part of the population towards warmer climes. It would have enabled better contact with Gondor.
I just think Elendil chose poorly when he made Annuminas his capital.
I initially read this as "What made armour weaker than Gondor?" because I never got over the fact that heavily armoured Gondor soldiers get beaten up and killed like nothing in the movies.
Of the Kingdoms of Arnor & Gondor, Arnor had the smaller population. Also disease, breaking Arnor into 3 Kingdoms & the predations of Angmar lead to Arnor's downfall.
Can we get a Smaug vs Balrog What If Versus breakdown?!
It is interesting to make the historical parallel that people must find what it is that unites them to stand together, or focus on what divides them to tear them apart. I wonder if, in a sense, the people of Gondor were more closely bound in part due to their kingdom constantly having an external enemy. History shows that nationalism tends to soar when there is an external threat great enough for all citizens to feel they must defend the way of life of their country. When external threats are less present, divisions tend to occur along internal issues such as economics, rights, social views and others. We see this in many countries today, where the danger lies within and not without.
Question: Did the world of Arda have a Firmament as the Earth in the Bible was designed to have with its sky?
Well in the Silmarillion Arda is described as being globed amid the void. The sky is also described as being similar in makeup to the ocean with different layers and depths hence Earendil sail across the surface of the heavens. So it seems to me Arda’s sky would be similar to Biblical descriptions of the firmament as the waters above the Earth.
@@hurinthalion5984
Yeah thanks for answering. It's great to hear Jrr Tolkien also took inspiration from Biblical by designing it's world in a similar structure as Yahuah did.
I had been hearing alot of should we say overestimating the powers of the Valar and Morgoth for a long time and it was becoming mind numbing so it's great to hear something that rejects the ordinary modern views of the world.
Also Gondor had much more fertile land to sustain a large population, more ports open for trade, I believe Arnor had only two ports Tharbad and Lond Daer.
arnor Is like charlamanges dynasty being split into 3 for charlemagnes grandsons to divide the power because of the kingdom being so large and divided
Love this channel to watch interesting videos instead of all the angry videos. Ni 'lassui En!
I also wondered if there would be Black Númenoreans who served Angmar? From Rhudaur.
Your closing was particularly saliant in the context of today's divisiveness and strife.
Yes we should see to our divisions. We must purge all who dissent so that we may be strong!
I don't Arnor was that much weaker than Gondor, I think they were both about the same in strength and size. What ultimately boils down is were the rulers of the lands. Even though Arnor was split into three petty kingdoms if the ruling kings the three brothers had the sense of unity rather than jealousy I think Arnor would've survived. In Gondor, the ruling leaders stayed unified and most of that was due to the Kings at first with them allying with the Eothad and then the House of the Stewards, as said in the Return of the King Appendices that the Stewards in their wisdom created lasting friendships and strides with many folk and lords. which is why Gondor was able to maintain themselves against all manner of enemies and disasters.
Hi people! Where can I find a copy of the picture of Minas Tirith against Mordon that appears at 00:38 secs of the video? I justo love this image and the white radiance the artist has given to the White City
8:58 "an mayhaps..." xddddd
A very good video as always Men of the West.
Can you also talk about Guillermo Del Toro's version of The Hobbit please?
And despite population problems from the very beginning, i believe both the Dúnedain and Middle Men were very numerous, for the population of Númenor itself(according to Nature of Middle Earth) was 15 million, and despite being a minority, the Faithful would still be very numerous in Middle Earth, and they had many years to migrate to Middle Earth(SA. 1200 to S.A. 3319). To think that so many perished during the War of the Last Alliance shows really the scale of the war, and how Old Arnor would never recover, only when Aragorn refounded it.
They would have 1-5% of that at most. The rest were Black Numenoreans.
@@kauetadaieski3131 given the 2000 years they had to settle and multiply or merge with the locals, the Faithful would not be so small in number, they might in fact be in the low millions.
What was obvious to me is they were servants of the Valar, the Elves and a so called deity called "Eru". If they were king's men may of had some real power. Stay awake people and don't forget to praise Ar Pharazôn!
I'd love to see a big-screen depiction of the conflict between Arnor and Angmar one day 😊
I didn’t get a notification for this?
That devastating plague didn't help Arnor much.
Arvedui was also married to Fíriel, the daughter of King Ondoher of Gondor
Angmar
I see so many real world similarities to the history of Arnor and Gondor. The division of Arnor by the kings sons reminds me of Charlemagnes kingdom being divided and becoming Germany and France.
Also the western kingdom falling while the eastern kingdom endured and went through periods of expansion but eventually slowly started to decline reminds me of the Roman empire splitting in half. In this scenario the men of Rohan would be the barbarian tribes that settled in Greece and became allies and the easterlings would represent the Turks.
The strife and bitter divisions that became the downfall of Arnor threaten powerful nations today. Politicians and the people who put them in power need to take heed, lest their nation, too, suffer the fate of Arnor.
could do w/o howling monks en background
Still love arnor though.
The northern Dunedain stayed true to the old friendships and kept the history alive.
To never give up up despite the dwindling numbers.
Keeping the line of kings alive
If we use Rome as a base, the Eastern provinces (Gondor) was already settled and produced most of the revenue. The Western provinces (Arnor) had lower population and wealth except Italy were much more impoverished.
What if Gimli took the one ring for himself?
He might have usurped the kingship of Durin's Folk and reclaimed Khazad Dum, and make all dwarf kingdoms wealthier.
Arnor is a metaphor for the slow demise of our Western hegemony. I know Professor Tolkien would've hated such a comparison.
"because the borders and autonomy of these three realms split actually quite neatly this must mean that civil problems had been building in Arnor for quite awhile for things to split along such generally clear-cut borders with a few conflicts here and there" That word spaghetti sounds like it's explaining something but I don't think it is. How would you draw a non clear-cut border? What does civil problem have to do with the split. It was just split between three brothers. Presumably some group of counties or the like. There is no evidence of some cultural divide based on what you said.
The great Plague. There. Saved you ten minutes.
Gondor might be more powerful, but arnor is just the coolest name ever.