Why The Batman is NOT A Batman Film
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- Опубликовано: 13 июл 2024
- [SPOILERS: Batman Begins (2005), The Batman (2022)]
A hero’s origin story is often in reference to the way in which they receive their superpowers and/or their main motivation for taking on their alter ego. In the case of Bruce Wayne/Batman, most recent film adaptations skip over his origin seeing as it is so well known by this point.
The Batman is no different; the story begins with Bruce Wayne having been Batman for two years. However, I would argue that this character is NOT the Bruce Wayne nor the Batman we are familiar with and, in fact, neither character truly makes an appearance in the film at all.
Rather, the entire film is, in a sense, a masked origin story, chronicling the trials and tribulations of a character I will refer to as “Vengeance”.
Let me explain…
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[00:00] - Intro/Shout-outs
[00:29] - A Masked Origin Story
[09:46] - Outro/Patrons
MUSIC
"A New Dawn" by Miquel Johnson: • 🌑 Dark (Free Music) - ... 
Кино
It kinda makes sense that vengance starts out as pretty much a still grieving child that's lashing out against the world. In the comics and in some media batman was quite unstable and brutal in his first years, eventually maturing into an actual hero because despite apperances, Batman is quite the most compassionate people in the DC universe, he is just emotionally stunted to properly show it, a nice example of this fact is the JLU episode "legacy" where he comforts a dying child, a far cry from the violent vigilante he used to be.
Funny this was pinned, since it's basically why I consider this a trash take.
What’s trash about it?
Not true ,batman still and always respected Alfred ,Bruce Wayne wasn’t a emo depressed bum, sorry and Batman was never bullet proof his first year
I really enjoy the fact that he really isn’t comfortable being the Bruce Wayne Alfred wanted him to be. It really adds depth that shows what the character actually wants.
Me too, this is the best take on early Batman era from the comics
My favorite part was when he was carrying that woman to safety then flying off
That's classic Comic silver age Batman
Absolutely loved how the Batman or “vengeance” unintentionally created the Riddler in this film.
It’s almost always inherently more intriguing to have the hero “create” his villains
I thought that was more interesting and made it more apparent on how the way he was being a vigilante was bad also giving him more of a reason to change.
While interesting idea, I feel like that's not Batman. Batman is shown to never be making the villains in the comics (sure there are some alternatives, but this was before the comic Batman: Year One retconned his origin, but even then, he usually was never the cause of the villains.). He mostly finds them and leaves them on the doorstep for the police to take in, as well as evidence of their crimes.
In fact, one episode from BTSA, called "Trial", tackles this concept where a female DA accuses Batman of making the villains and playing "their judge and jury". To which the villains and criminals, team up to capture the DA and Batman and place him on trial, accusing him of turning them into what they've become. To which the DA realizes that all they're accusing Batman off is because of they're own wrongdoing (which it is), finally coming to the statement, "I used to believe Batman was responsible for you people but now I see nearly everyone here would have ended up exactly the same, Batman or not. Oh, the gimmicks might be different, but you'd all be out there in some form or another that brings misery to Gotham. The truth is, YOU CREATED HIM.".
So if anything, the Riddler even without Batman, would have become the same twisted, obsessive, egomaniac he is.
@@osmanyousif7849 Yeah but this Batman is only 2 years in - he's bound to make mistakes and grow from it which is why it was fascinating watching this evolution. Next film, we'll probably see him learn from his past mistake and become more like the batman we've known. It'd be boring if we didn't see any character growth or arc.
@@Amy-zp2ks , well that depends on which storyline they want to use. Matt Reeves stated that he had interest in doing the Court of Owls storyline, which has Batman fully embracing the darkness, which seems to be the thing he's deciding not to be at the end of the first film. So doing that would be sort of retcon his arc.
However, Matt Reeves also stated interest in bringing Robin to the trilogy, which I think is a better suited choice. Have Bruce bring in a young orphan boy, and be sort of like a father to him, and rewrite his mistakes that his own father did fits more to an arc in a 2nd film.
Can we just talk about how the scene where he cuts the cord literally and figuratively and falls in the water to then come up from the water “reborn” into the hero and savior?
Reeves is a genius.
Yeah, and Him leading the injured out of the rubble holding light like a leading one.
Comparisons to a moses like figure. It's what i think.
Don't know how you think thats genius when the fakeout death had already happened not even two minutes earlier
…. Literally never thought it was a “fake out”
You’re not getting the point lol
@@mattcollins3591 I know, the movie is just so smart I couldn't possibly understand it 🙄
He can tank multiple uzis point blank and hunting rifles up close, but a 12 gauge shotgun from 10 feet away is too much, the movie is way too smart for me
He didn’t… die though. 🤷♂️
So what’s your point? A “fake-out” is when a character is believed it be deceased for then to be resurrected.
Literally at no point in that scene does anyone think Batman died.
"There are people who critique Batman saying Roberts Bruce Wayne is lacking, I would people who make this claim are missing the entire point"
Me: EXACTLY
Basically if BaleBats is the Dark Knight, already able to master his lance, his sword and his horse, Batpatenson is the Dark Squire, yet to master his craft and yet to take his Vows.
Also Batman in general is basically a Knight without the title, Aristocratic Warrior clad in Armor, Riding his Stead into battle and tends to have a Student by his side or a herald as his Coat of Arms is announcing his arrival.
they arent
I have only seen trailers, not the film so I can't really judge but from what I see, Pattinson looks like a badly paid English teacher stranded at a high school, not like the only child of super rich people. And he looks far more miserable than Joaquin Phoenix as the Joker.
Not that Pattinson wasn't good but somehow this doesn't look convincing.
This movie Smells Like Teen Spirit.
@@saymyname2417 bruh🤦♂️
I'm pretty okay with this character "Vengeance".
Being a vigilante is a very adolescent mindset, he is going through things realistic adults go through after suffering childhood trauma. Realistically people regress and lash out, and isolate without confronting themselves.
This whole Film is character Development.
In the Film he never calls himself "Batman", he just says "The Batman" as a seperate entity. Because he has none, an "Identity Crisis" if you will.
This is the most out of touch version of Batman we've seen, again very typical of a sheltered socialite and had he exposed himself to the world he'd have saved the day far better by linking himself to the common man.
I liked this film, I'd put it above Batman Begins
This movie's tone is adolescent, but you're wrong, as far as fiction goes, that portrayals of vigilantism are necessarily adolescent. You should acquaint yourself with more pulp characters like The Shadow, Zorro and other pulp characters that aren't adolescent. What makes this film adolescent isn't the vigilantism, but the brooding pubescent self-seriousness. Also, this film is only noir for young people completely unfamiliar with noir films. Noir requires adult charisma to work, and this film has zero wit, charm, or charisma. Go watch Fred MacMurray and Barbara Stanwyck in Double Indemnity, Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall in The Big Sleep, Humphrey Bogart and Mary Astor in The Maltese Falcon and Edward G. Robinson and Joan Bennett in The Woman in the Window as examples of Adult Charisma in Noir. Most of the young people going around praising this film as "Noir" don't seem to realize that part of what makes noir unique is the wit and mordant humor that courses through most of these films. This film feels monotone, and it's taking itself far too seriously. Hell, even the much darker movie Se7en (a movie said to have inspired this film) had more wit, levity, and even humor than The Batman.
@@seppukusushi2848 well, I'm not calling it Noir, and I have a bunch of Shadow comics.
But no, Vigilantism is Adolescent, the idea. That your strength alone can change the course of a world.
And there was subtle bouts of Charisma and wit. Like Batman continuing to touch evidence and the one cop be frustrated, Peguin stole his scenes and the reason movies like Se7en had more humour because it heightens the horrible stuff, to take you off guard. The humour and Wit are coping mechanisms.
Jim is a neo-ypical hard boiled cop, certainly had a twinge of edge to him. Not saying Catwoman is on Bacall's level but Kravitz was a better Femme Fatale than Anne Hathaway's Catwoman which felt more like an act but Michele Pfeiffer is still top. In fact Burton had better Noir trappings too it but I think the stylised direction helped.
@@V4Now *Vigilantism is Adolescent*
We're not talking about real life, but in fiction. It can be portrayed in a non-adolescent way. Otherwise ALL revenge stories in literature become adolescent, which is obviously not true.
*But no, Vigilantism is Adolescent, the idea. That your strength alone can change the course of a world.*
Vigilantism in the real world isn't that "high-minded." Most Vigilantes aren't trying to "save the world with their own strength" , they have much more limited, and modest ambitions. For example, in Mexico, the Cartels and the police are corrupt and sometimes work together, and citizens can't own guns. In some towns, citizens have resorted to vigilantism because there's nothing else they could do. This wasn't done for childish, arrogant ambitions, and they didn't have any delusions about saving the world. These people had more a more humble desire to defend their families. Also, real vigilantism usually involves a group of people (neighbors) and not a lone individual.
*and the reason movies like Se7en had more humour because it heightens the horrible stuff, to take you off guard. The humour and Wit are coping mechanisms.*
Of course, but this is just why I think the tone is just bad and lacks style. The problem is not so much the Rating not being R and instead PG-13, because you don't need to up the violence, depressing darkness, or nudity to make a movie more adult. You just need more charisma in the scenes, which is kind of hard when your main character is wearing a bat costume. This is at least one thing that Tim Burton kind of understood.
*but Kravitz was a better Femme Fatale than Anne Hathaway's Catwoman which felt more like an act but Michele Pfeiffer is still top. In fact Burton had better Noir trappings too it but I think the stylised direction helped.*
I completely agree with all of this.
@@seppukusushi2848 if the Animated Batmen has shown anything is being in a Batsuit is no excuse for a lack of charisma however it works for this Particulat Batman because he's showing signs of clear trauma and one aspect is isolation, which can impair a developed personality, I.e. Charisma. The conclusion of the film centres around him needing to be more than Hollow. Luckily, Penguin, Gordon, Falcone, Catwoman and Riddler make up for Batman's lack of character.
@@V4Now I'm only speaking to the Noir pretensions that are being particularly emphasized in this Batman movie. Batman is a character that is trapped between two genres: Superheroes (which were ripped off from Pulp Novels) and Noir (which is not fantastical and more adult). The Shadow combined these two genres convincingly and Batman ripped off The Shadow. Batman is generally a precarious tightrope walk between these two seemingly incompatible genres. The more Superhero the Batman is, the more inappropriate the Noir elements are, and the more Noir the story becomes, the sillier the superhero (and even the Bat costume becomes). Even having a hero trying to save an entire city is a bit too large of a scale for a noir film and is more superhero territory. A good Batman film can be made, but audiences and directors need to stop being ashamed of the Pulp Hero origins of the character. Batman is too Pulp and superhero related to be a good Noir character. It's like asking for a grounded realistic Indiana Jones or Tarzan. It doesn't have to be "Batman and Robin" cheesy, to be a good Superhero movie, but this film is too adolescent to be a good Noir picture and it's too grim to be a good Pulp hero story. If you want my opinion, I think Tim Burton came closest to successfully walking that tightrope between Noir and Pulp Superhero.
I've been looking for a movie like this for a while. I'm like 17 and have had a miserable last 3-4 years of my life. There's so much to be angry about and so much to fear. But then this film comes along just parading as another generic superhero flick, while under the surface, actually being a gritty coming of age film. And that's important to me, I get to seen an example of someone who has a seriously tough life, who's able to navigate it, and in the end not solving everything but still learn something very important. The coming of genre is so happy-go-lucky it's unbelievable. But this movie comes in with a totally different and, ironically, realistic take. Batman is edgy. Bruce Wayne is edgy. And that's ok because his life is so bleak and miserable that it's a totally understandable human reaction.
This movie Is just so awesome. It's going for something I haven't seen before. Character development to the level of the coming of age genre, f*cking awesome batman grit, and excellent film making all in one with 3 hour runtime. 9.5/10 all day everyday.
I'm actually at the same point in my life, and and I too loved this film. I'd give it a ten out of ten, no hesitancy.
@@aspiringjoker2883 hope you 2 guys are training. You have the origin story. The world won’t fix itself
Literally me
@@aspiringjoker2883 realistic take? Did we watch the same movie? There's nothing remotely realistic about it.
@@mrpussinboots4252 not remotely the point of my comment, nor the original comment, but go off about how unrealistic it was.
100% agreed. Totally don’t understand the criticism about Bruce Wayne’s part in the film or Pattinson portrayal of him. Seemed obvious to me what they were going for and I thought they mastered it to the point where I think this is my favorite portrayal of Bruce Wayne/Batman in the films. Not only the performance but the arc he goes through as well as him just operating as Batman. Pattinson is a great choice because we know he can pull off the ultra smooth rich guy persona that this character is definitely going to be growing toward.
Anyway, yea, I’m surprised so many people think Bruce was an issue in this. I thought they did a great job within the context of the movie. I’m very much looking forward to what’s coming next.
The critique is that Batman and Bruce Wayne are two different people or basically one is the mask. It’s like a lot of depressed people tend not show they are medically depressed but on a happy face. If you wanna do the vengeance angle here then fine but just know that ain’t a good portrayal of bruce
I get what they were going for but I refuse to believe Bruce Wayne has been a depressed emo since his parents died. He doesn't have time for that. Also Pattinson's performance as Wayne was one note. No range.
@@keodiozubu8670 It is a good portrayal of bruce at this stage. The reasoning and the execution of the character make sense for the context. The Bruce Wayne persona (playboy, billionaire, philanthropist) hasn't been deemed necessary to him, but the realization at the end and possibly the words spoken by the mayor may force him to develop the persona. We get Playboy Bruce, Bruce at home with Alfred, and then Batman in the animation movies. Bruce's personality at home leads closer to batman than Billionaire Bruce because as Pattinson said in one of his interviews, Bruce Wayne here believes his true identity is Batman, and that the person Bruce Wayne is something he has to keep up appearances with.
@@ShahariaChowdhury But hasn’t he been this for two years? If it truly not that necessary that he distinguished the two then why doesn’t he just reveal himself to be Batman at this point? The persona was to hide his identity but if it doesn’t then logic says that he should not have a secret identity
@@keodiozubu8670 it's because he is a vigilante, which is illegal. If he revealed to the world that he was Batman, Batman would be over with, which his attitude showed this when he thought that riddler's last video was unmasking the Batman. This right here is logical... Also revealing to the world that he is human may downgrade the fear he has built amongst the criminals. To them he is a mythical creature who comes in and out of the shadows.
Finally! Someone who understands his arc. I was getting infuriated with the people who were saying "his Bruce Wayne sucks" unironically
👆👆👆
I don't know how much it's people not getting his arc and how much it's people getting it but just not liking a Bruce Wayne that isn't the billionaire playboy persona. Some people are in both camps. They don't get it, and they don't appreciate the more subtle and subdued interpretation of Bruce Wayne.
@@Tyler_W I say this as a Batman fan since 3 years old (grew up with 2004 series), the people who say that have been brainwashed into only knowing "Bat-God" or BTAS. When it's not that, they're butthurt Snyder fans who can't except that their version of the character misses most of the point of the character.
Sounds like it was dumb to market this as THE BATMAN when Batman isn't in the movie
@@brendanpelkey120 I listed him as a different character. My "Bat God" statement was in reference to whenever Batman appears in any comic that isn't his own and he seemingly know the answer to everything and can beat literally everyone in fiction with the right "prep time." I don't like Batfleck, but not for that reason
More proof that you're the most based film/tv channel not criticizing this movie for the literal point and character arc of the MC, great video! Loved the movie. This is easily the most comic-accurate live-action batman, apart from the Bruce Wayne persona not being formed yet, but clearly, by the end of the movie, it shows he's one step closer to the proper batman.
"this is the most accurate Batman even though he's not a proper Batman yet." Haha you guys calling this the best ever or ever anything is silly to me. Don't understand it. Why jump the gun?
As usual, Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker is years ahead of it's time here.
"Behind all the sturm and batarangs, you're just a little boy in a playsuit crying for mommy and daddy!"
"Itd be funny if it werent so pathetic. Ah what the heck Ill laugh anyway!"
Also when Bruce hands over the comms to Selina. A scene from Batman beyond return of the joker, from Barbara talking to Terry says
“ Bruce only cared about the mission”.
That scene showed me that Pattinson’s batman is the same Batman as Kevin Conroy.
To be honest I thought this video was going be shitting on the film but instead I'm understanding why "The Batman" has more deeper story then I thought. I love your break down and comparing of "Batman Begins" and "The Batman". I hope you continue your work.
Both hold a lot of similarities to the comic Year One. Except The Batman, seems to be a bit more in line with the comic a little more.
Seen it twice and I’m obsessed. I appreciate this take on the movie and Batman’s journey, as it’s helped me verbalize some of the praises I’ve wanted to sing.
Minor spoilers:
Awesome take on an awesome movie. I think Vengeance’s arc is further manifested in his different methods of gaining entry into the nightclub. First as a brawler, then as Bruce, then finally as a shadow in the night.
Couldn't agree with you more, As a fan of the comics and little details helped elevate the film and I wholeheartedly agree with you're analysis also if I'm not mistaken Matt Reeves wrote the script as he listened to Nirvana and molded his version of Bruce Wayne to mirror the apprehension and reclusiveness he had with fame.
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I wonder how reviews say it’s too depressing and miss the perfect ending of “vengeance” carrying that women to help as she holds on top in fear but he reassure and holds on till she in the air.
Or when he used the symbol on his chest (same symbol that was made with the gun that took his parents life) to cut a wire , save those people and then using a flair a symbol of light to lead them out of darkness.
They missed a perfect opportunity to end this film with a very brief scene of reclusive Bruce putting on a suit and coming a philanthropist and leader helping to rebuild flooded grieving Gotham while clearing his family's name of the Riddler's accusations. This would have been a satisfying arc for him, starting out not wanting to be Bruce ever, realizing he actually does care about his family legacy, seeing what reclusiveness cost him, and realizing he needs to embracing putting on his Bruce costume sometimes.
I loved the film, but good point! Hopefully they do something like this at the start of the second film!
Very likely that's how the sequel will start and Alfred will remark on his 'welcome change'.
Third film
I definitely think that's where they're going. But having it at the end would've been far too abrupt/jarring/out of the blue. The film ends with Bruce having only just realised/accepted that Batman can be a hero and symbol of hope to Gotham. Having him suddenly come up with the Bruce Wayne identity out of the blue all of a sudden at the end of the movie would've been jarring. He's on a journey and still doesn't see Bruce Wayne and Batman as separate (he's just the bat at this point). I'm confident Bruce Wayne will step out of his manor into the light and be philanthropic restoring his families legacy but having it just casually slotted in at the end of the film would've been jarring and far too big a shift for his character all at once. Especially in comparison to the rest of the film. Most importantly this Bruce still hasn't realised yet that Bruce Wayne and the Batman can be separate entities even be the end of the film.
@@the0thersyde725 A total transformation into playboy Bruce Wayne yeah, that would have been way too much. A hint that he's beginning to develop that role, that would have fit and not been overdone. And the setup was perfect, because Gotham needed hope, and Bruce needed to un-tarnish the Wayne name. But you're right that anything more than a hint of a start would have been to much.
Great video! It's pretty serendipitous that I found this video considering I also posted a video essay today about how The Batman film is less of a Batman tale and more about the vigilante known as Vengeance becoming Batman. I would note that the flare/Gotham Square Garden scene could be argued as the moment when Vengeance transformed into Batman. Becoming a symbol of hope rather than just a symbol of fear. Either way great video!
Excellent anaylsis. I saw this film as more of Gotham's story as it is young Batman's film. We can see Reeves is exploring the transformation of Batman from vengenace to the real Batman. Many people don't realize but Batman is a sumbol of Hope as much as he's a symbol of fear. They're two sides of the coin. and Batman is the line on the edges. Perfectly cementing the coin in balance. It's a fantastic element by Reeves.
From the sounds of it it seems like this movie being the start of a trilogy is extremely appropriate for the story it's trying to tell
Edit: Haven't seen the movie yet so my favorite take on young Bruce is still Arkham Origins. Might be because of Roger Craig Smith sexy voice tho.
Arkham Batman is still the best in the sheer grosteskness. Golden age Batman was colorful and campy, bronze age Batman is all dark, gloomy and realistic.
Arkham manages to bridge both in a unique way
Golden age Batman wasn’t colorful and campy he shot people with the Batplane and hurled them off rooftops
@@greggoat6570 Yeah Golden Age comics were something else
The movie is filled with incredible metaphors and symbolism. It was excellent.
As a former activist, one of the hardest pills I swallowed during that time of my life was realizing that overzealousness in attempting to achieve a goal, an end justifying any imaginable means if you will,despite the best of intentions, almost always tends to embolden, if not outright create, the very enemies who would seek to oppose and undermine your efforts, and this goes for both sides on any given issue.
This film kinda felt like a gut punch in that regard, and was a refreshing deconstruction on the angry, vengeful, self-righteous do-gooder with strong convictions trope.
Just as "Vengeance" in this film needs to learn to dial it back and reevaluate his approach, so too should we do the same in our daily lives as we seek to abide by our own principles.
The Dark Knight isn't much of a "Batman" film either. It's just Heat with slightly more eccentric main characters.
Spot On Correct-"the Batman"=Zodiac,& Dark City.:)
The Batman is a weird remake of Batman Begins mixed with Seven and Zodiac
This video proves basically the same thing that i felt about the film itself. It's a critique on Batman. It's asking a young bruce wayne, who's still in his second year of crime fighting, of what he truly is and what he is becoming: a monster or a hero?
The beginning scene, the vengeance scene introduces Batman as a legend, a mythical figure feared by innocents and guilty alike. One who administers justice like it's a death sentence. Think of it, he beat up one of those thugs like every vent of pulsating anger in his body flowed through the punches. He wasn't pulling away.
Even in the end, when Bruce realises that his methods and ways has led to the creation of 'people' like Edward Nashton, he understands that vengeance will never be the answer.
Another instance how one of Riddler's followers said "I'm Vengeance" even after he got beat up by batman. That made Bruce realise he is setting a wrong example. That to set things right, he has to look at his actions and understand his ways, so that he can help the innocents and punish the wicked. So that he can finally become a Symbol of Justice.
P.S. Once saw two of your posts on the Batman.
LET'S. GO!!!!!!!!
THAT'S HOW YOU FU***NG DO IT!!!!!
Looks like you were as anticipated as I was( I didn't go around posting so many things about the movie but still).
The riddler in this movie is literally the terrifying interpretation of vengeance.
I love that way of thinking about it. This movie exceeded even my highest expectations and I can’t wait for the the next one
Loved the analysis, I think we should mention that this is by far the most emotionally damaged Bruce Wayne we’ve ever seen and that’s why he’s so reclusive
first time I've actually got comic book feels from a superhero film. Such a good take on the beginnings of the character, shamelessly emo, incredibly resourceful and clever but naïve. Who knew the bat could be more grounded than the Nolan films
Not even that tbh. There's something about this film that captures the tone of comics perfectly
@Erik Kemeey A smaller screen and black and white colors doesn't give that superhero feel at all. It feels like an 80s movie about superheroes which honestly doesn't fit
@Erik Kemeey zsjl, im talkin bout zsjl
@Erik Kemeey I would argue most of the shots were black and white while the rest is just covered with darker shades of what it is actually supposed to look like. Just like Flash's suit, going from regular bright red straight to really dark red.
@Erik Kemeey It definitely has some really good shots like superman doing a Jesus pose. But it's not as good as The Batman tho
I agree. Isn’t he only supposed to be like 20. I liked how he didn’t stick all the landings, theoretically and literally. He doesn’t have his emotions together. He’s mean to Alfred (not cool but the acts of a young adult).
Still not understanding how he didn’t get the whole “rat with wings” riddle like tf I thought he supposed to be world’s greatest detector took him 3 mf hr to get it. Sad but the cinematography and is great.
The first film I went back to theaters for, loved it. Great analysis! It did occur me to how there really wasn’t a traditional Bruce Wayne/Batman dynamic but I liked it.
Having just started watching Gotham again though, I realize The Batman is the part of Bruce Wayne’s character I’ve always loved. That transitional state where he either becomes the monster or (sort of like he says at the end) takes that pain & transforms it into something better; that to me has always been my favorite part of Batman’s character.
Finally I can watch one of your media analysis videos, because I actually watched this movie!
Never clicked a video so fast! This is an amazing breakdown of why exploring the early years of a character whose prestige lies in experienced mastery of their craft like Batman is so fascinating. I hope we see Pattinson continue his transformation from Vengeance to Batman in the sequels. Great vid Mac
I liked how every scene in the movie the sun never shines on the city except for the ending
While I liked the movie overall and I get what they want to do with this version of the character, I'm hoping the writers will eventually have a movie where Batman can be his usual, more idealistic self. Not learning to be a superhero, but remaining a superhero in the face of the worst Gotham has to offer.
Robin could fit really well into this conflict. Batman failed to help people on his first try so badly that he inspired the Riddler. Is he capable of showing someone in his care--someone who feels the same fear he does--a better way to deal with their despair? In training Robin, Bruce could further define what makes Batman more than just mindless Vengeance. It would also make Pattinson more distinct from all the other angry batmans we have been watching for the last decade. At this point, they're all becoming a bat-shaped blur in my head.
put robin in the next movie cowards
Great analysis as always, Mac!
This comparison is gonna be controversial, but in a way, Robert Pattinson's Bruce is similar to Tom Holland's Peter Parker, especially in his arc in No Way Home. I know how that sounds, but hear me out:
-Both are young men with naïvety and impulsiveness that lands them both in trouble. Both convey those in different ways, of course (this Bruce is more angry and vengeful while the MCU's Peter has the typical teenage naïveté).
-They are also heroes for a short amount of time (I think it's also two years in No Way Home for Peter?) and have plenty of cool tech and armor at their disposal.
-Even so, they couldn't always win against the villains - even having the villains' ultimate plans succeed.
-And yet, even in their lowest points, after encouragement and contemplation, they still plan to help and try to save the day. Even though they get close to losing themselves in the final fight, they eventually realize the consequences of their actions and do the right thing in the end.
If there's any flaws in my comparison, I'm sorry. But making it sometime after watching this movie, it made me realize how much I really appreciate superhero origin stories told like this. Here's to hoping this film and its probable sequel(s) turn out to be a hell of an origin story for Batman!
This was very thoughtful. Thank you for sharing it.
Wow man! Another great video! Thank you!
Interesting take. And the way you said it's not "Batman" but "Vengeance" origin story makes me chuckle because of the Batman HISHE.
This was a great analysis. Thank you
very cool stuff, keep up the good work.
Had been waiting for this!
I hope “Vengeance” redesigns the suit and cowl in the sequel.
I haven’t watched your videos in a year and you still never cease to amaze how much i agree with your takes. This is exactly what i thought when i was watching this with my father. Especially the song choice of Something in the Way. Now that it is no longer in the way, we can finally see Matt Reeves’ Batman shine in the sequel, where i hope the Mad Hatter will be the main villain. Great video Mac, as always. ❤❤
I kind of like the younger, less matured Batman in this movie. He totally would be the type to listen to angsty music and all that. It shows a phase of Batman the movies don't often depict: when he's younger, the police still thinks he's a nut job, he hasn't mastered being Batman yet and honestly? His costume looks kinda goofy. I like that. I would love to see him grow up in sequel movies, slowly become the wise, compassionate but still haunted man we know him as from other media.
I would argue it’s the most accurate Batman movie
But that isn't saying a lot live-action wise
To which extent? In terms of comics or in terms of realism?
@@osmanyousif7849 comics
@@osmanyousif7849 both tbh
@@dantesparta9921 fully agree he's the most accurate comic batman, the ending is the best
He's not only the hope for the citizens he's the fear for the worse type of Gotham criminal
It’s more of a movie about Batman not a Batman movie in my opinion
Great video🖤
Even the Director stated that this isn't a fully realized Batman nor Bruce Wayne. Critics be weird sometimes.
I told my sister that this is a fanfic of Batman created by a teenager living in Gotham city in 2012. It’s a component by the way
bAsEd
@@MacabreStorytelling I mean to type compliment instead of component lol. Love the film
Very thoughtful analysis!
I enjoyed this movie, mostly for Pattinson.
I think they could have done the vengeance realization better, but i agree with what you have said about the Batman character. I loved how they had him always notice the little boy at times, and when he saves them from the stage wreckage, its the little boy who comes first. It was some pretty good cinema and character work in this movie, especially from the writting.
Good video. At 7:50 though, you referred to the exchange he shares with the soon to be mayor elect as taking place at the police commissioners funeral, when it's actually at the mayor's funeral.
My biggest problem with this film is exactly what you're describing here though. The story of "Vengeance" could literally be a standalone, original character (like John Wick). Slapping on the Batman coat of paint for branding is such an obvious safety net so they don't get merked at the box office. Idk, I guess it's just not for me. And you mentioned it yourself, Nolan already told this story in like 50 times less the time.
The comparisons with the young Bruce Wayne from Batman Begins does make sense, but it does have a more logical feel to it in that movie. As in Bruce becoming a criminal himself, then a Ninja, then deciding to become Batman to fight crime and using the bat as his symbol because bats frighten him. The progression felt more organic. In The Batman he first becomes Batman, then continues processing his anger, lashing out at the world, while not really being ready to don the cape and fight criminals. I was curious to see where and how he learns to fight and - maybe I missed this in the movie - I can't remember whether there was an actual explanation for why he even chose the bat as his symbol and not another night hunter like, say, an owl, a coyote or a badger (that conversation with Alfred would have been great)😄
This film will continue to age like fine wine and eventually people will come to appreciate the masterpiece it is
After that clerks reference in the first 10 seconds I immediately subbed
Can we also acknowledge that Colin Ferrell was totally unrecognizable as Penguin! And Riddler almost became the coolest bad guy (a bad guy who relates to bruce/bat and was inspired yo become the riddler from Batman's example!)
Honestly it kinda feels like if there was any movie to be a *Batman* movie it would be this one, it's one of the few where Batman actually has his own arc and feels like a tangible character, while all the other movies (For the most part) are great, it does feel like he kinda takes a backseat mostly in his own movies, except for this one.
Another great analysis
Nice to meet the brother of Bruce, Mr. Vengeance Wayne.
I hate when people say "Bruce Wayne is Batman's mask". This movie showed why that's wrong, and your video points it out. He clearly doesn't really know what he wants or what he is, to the point of his "Bruce Wayne" persona and life suffering. Great video.
No it didn't. Batman is who Bruce truly is, a haunted crusader that has no desire for a normal life or the trivial pursuits of wealthy excess. Bruce Wayne as a persona has always been nothing more than a tool in that crusade. Even when Bruce forms close attachments to other people, such as Dick Grayson or talia, those relationships are still between them and Batman.
@@derek96720 my point is there is no separate person. They are all Bruce Wayne, or they are all Batman. They are separate sides of the same person. Just like how (not a perfect analogy) you talk to your boss differently than you do your friends, Bruce Wayne puts on a different face for different aspects of his life. It's such a lazy cold take to say "the real mask is Bruce Wayne", and it's an excuse to not give him characterization. This movie SHOWS Bruce Wayne and Gotham suffering because he only cares about being Batman. It shows his state of depression and overworking, and the Riddler and his followers idolize this Batman who is too obsessed with trying to punch crime out of Gotham.
Now I wanna see Batman beat people up in the sequel but just enough to get em in a position to be interrogated instead of losing all their teeth and ribs since I assume he's mastered his anger by the second movie
Wonderful!!! Absolutely bang on!!!!
Well put
That is "Mr. Vengence, the Night and I AM THE BATMAN!" for you, papi Mac.
People must've forgot that batman is a detective that's why it's different from other batman movies
As a fan of Burton's "Batman" which was itself quite a twist on some features of Batman as almost always he is portrayed, I think I was "desensitised" to be shocked by the idea of recluse borderline killer Batsy as "not really being Batman". Keaton's was also a a recluse (although he did have parties and try to play the playboy and philantropist but he was terrible at it and mostly was awkward), he apparently was relatively recent in his career (the cops knew a Batman was around but he was still a myth who scared even people he saved even if he is older than Battinson). As such although I think your analysis is absolutely correct, I think the basic title-thesis is a bit like-whatever. Honestly this seems like a natural take to take on a more crime story dark Batman who is supposed to still be new at the job. But I like my Batsies cuckoo for Coco Puffs, not very anti-killing and recluse anyhow, so this wasn't shocking to me. Playing with a character is good, especially when the story is right for it.
You did a good job explaining the movie. When I watched the movie, vengeance didn't feel like the Batman that I grew up watching. I've noticed that Vengeance was more introverted and wasn't trusted as much compared to the Batman I knew and loved. Maybe Vengeance could learn to be more like Batman in the next movie.
Great video
This actually changed my perception of the movie quite a bit. Well done.
beautiful analysis, that's all i can say. u just got a sub bro bro
❤
This is a really interesting take on the movie and putting it in this perspective makes it seem much more better but I do believe there's still something off about it. Maybe it didn't focus on this characteristic enough? I don't know, when I watched it I felt Batman (or vengeance) was too juvenile. But still, interesting video.
God this movie is so fucking good, you video on it is so fucking good.
Funny, a lot of people tend to say this feels like the most Batman film to date. Interested to hear the perspective here.
Let's hope Hollywood does not botch the sequel
Great analysis and 100% agree. I really enjoyed the movie -- it wasn't perfect, the narrative could have been a lot tighter, but overall it was well done and something different rather than just a rehash of everything before it. Also I really liked Pattinson's portrayal. Definitely agree anyone who complains is missing the point -- he was perfectly in character the whole time.
Agreed, and while I agree it was a bit overstuffed, I was absolutely amazed just how much story they were able to put into the film. A bit long but some VERY impressive fast paced and efficient storytelling.
People didn’t miss the point on how bad Pattinson’s Bruce Wayne was, he was just a terrible Bruce Wayne. He played a great z Batman but walked around Gotham as Edward Cullen without the suit
It has been heavily reported and rumored that when Reeves showed the 1st cut of the movie to the studio, the studio had 2 big issues
1-It was too long and dragged too much
2-Robert Pattinson was great as Batman but terrible in the scenes as Bruce Wayne. Supposedly they said this to Reeves who responded with “I have been trying to tell you this!”. Also makes sense since there were tons of rumors with a Reeves/Pattinson beef during the filming
The studio then delayed the movie, I think close to a year, and by the looks of it took out as much Bruce Wayne as possible.
So this “different Bruce Wayne” was not a clever design. It was a terrible Bruce Wayne they cut as much out of the movie as possible.
Macabre storytelling I genuinely want to ask your thoughts on if they should scrap their trilogy for this Batman and just give us a live action series with a budget of game of thrones… because the world building reeves does in the film is incredible and rich with more and character. His take of having this movie have proto villains is a nice trick but will feel incomplete in a simple trilogy format. Like okay next movie Bruce grows into Batman fights a new proto villain or two and poof we are at the ending of the trilogy….. there’s to much with the Batman world that I believe it should be a mini series or full fledge show and I would love to see clay face
Hmm... I think I trust him with the trilogy. I personally would rather a slightly overstuffed series of films than a long, drawn out series.
We’re getting a Arkham show and also a Penguin show.
@@DravenG96 that’s not gonna have Batman so what’s the point ? Besides to I guess make your trilogy bloated
Great analyis
Silly fella. Of course it's not A Batman film. It's THE Batman film. It's in the title you silly goose!
SMH, how could the same mind that revealed to the world that Kevin McCallister was a criminal mastermind miss something so obvious 🤦
oh I really hope they do the scarecrow next. he's all about fear. it would be a great character to do
I mean this is excellent what the film shows us, this isn't a new take the movie makes it very clear this is early batman, he is still learning and even says at the end of the film that vengeance isn't the message he should be sending that is growth right there
So do you think that version of Batman is actually part of the timeline or is it just one of the random movies that just has Batman in it? Art the obvious thing is this think that this is the movie before they go into the Batman films leading right into Batman the movie? Or will this want to just be a random Batman film based from all the others because I think that this is a more modern version of Batman from before everything checked off ?
And I want to see the breakdown on my questions to further your video do you think that was this one or is not a traditional Batman film what? If so then I can just have this one week as an alternative Version of Batman of today
I would like to see if we can break down these questions compare it to your video here
So glad you mentioned Nirvana... chef's kiss
Fucking. Yes.
The script could've used a little more focus and tigh the plot up a bit, but the moment the terrorist said "I'm vengeance", it all clicked into place.
I've been in a complete state of apathy regarding the super-hero genre for the past 5 years. The Batman isn't as great as I wanted it to be, but it got my attention. There is so much potential here, and I'm curious to see how far they're gonna push it.
Best review I read
Great Video
I love how Rorschach finally got his own solo film
Correct. Its a commissioner cordon film
Plot twist: the goon who got beat up at the beginning of the movie and worked for the Riddler later suffered brain damage. As a result, I am vengeance is the only thing he can say, kind of like Groot.
THANK YOU. This is what I’ve been saying. I just can’t get behind this movie because I don’t feel like I’m watching Batman. It’s the story of him actually becoming batman but like only 10% of that journey and only at the very end. I’m going to actually have to see him become Batman over the course of more films before I’m able to enjoy this film. Looking at his character arc as a whole.
They didn't skip the origin, it's introduced by analogy with the sympathetic moments between that organ boy and batman
I thought after seeing the film is that they didn't take this arc far enough.
One line stood out to me. When Bruce meets Carmine Falcone before the funeral scene. Carmine relates a story that after a robbery he and his crew did years ago he was shot and Thomas Wayne did the emergency surgery in their home while a younger Bruce watched.
Bruce just defiantly quips that his father took care of carmine due to the hypocratic oath.
And the line that stood out to me was carmine saying "the hypocratic oath, that's what you think.." while somewhat laughing it off.
While the story made it imply that it was due to a deal carmine had with the Wayne's that made him take care of him I think it could also have deeper implications.
In other words, unlike Bruce who is now vengeance only doesn't kill criminals due to moral obligation his father might have helped carmine all those years ago due to something more.
While His father may have not liked who carmine was or what he had done for a living he still saw him as a fellow human being in pain and genuinely wanted to relieve him of it.
The overall moral of the story should have been the difference between heroism and vengeance. With Bruce stubbornly wanting to be vengeful and overcoming that with the riddler being the absolution of vengeance. Riddler never stopping or caring regardless of the consequences and batman realizing he must never fully become that.
And while this film hits a lot of those points it feels like it never really regards it kind of pushes it to the side.
Also I think the sequel and penguin series will be a no man's land adaptation. And if the court of owls storyline is made (as some reviewers theorized) I hope instead of a straightforward RIP adaptation there would be a twist that the court realizes that the rogues gallery are more of a threat than batman as they would be more blatantly violent and willingly vengeful against them and Gotham (as was proven in this film).
Thus the final point of Bruce's character arc from vengeance to batman would be him running a gauntlet fighting the court for the lives of his biggest enemies finally living up to his father's willingness to help anyone regardless of who they were or are.
Also this made me see Adam west batman in massive new light in his belief that any one could be rehabilitated.
Good video. I think a better title would be "Why Vengenace isn't Batman (Yet)"
After watching this movie I was so disappointed I sat down and watched the animated series. This movie is not a batman movie
I read the title of the video confused but after at watching it I thought about it and realized why then I understood
As always you did interesting points even If I disagree with a lot of them on "the watchmen 2019" . I respect your opinion and thank you for sharing them. I said last time you are tasteless and I wanted to apologize. Still, I think that it is not a bad show and I prefer a time line where it exist than not. Your title was "it is a thermic disaster". I think it is a flawed story. But I like the fact that we still explore the watchmen universe. They tried to imagine what the watchmen would be after the original story. It is fun and worth trying even if you fail miserably. I think trying is important for Art in general. I dont think it is a thermic disaster but a good serie and an artistic project worth watching if you are a fan of the watchmen like me or you and you are "spitting in the soup/bitting the hand that try to feed you". It has flaws , it is less good than the original comic book (I have offered it to many friends , especially if they doesnt like super heroes story it works too. But I thank the authors to have tried to imagine the story following the original one. I loved every one of the characters (old and new), the plots were not perfect nor the stories or scenaris but it was good and surprising even if some characters deserved more light and were inexploited like PTSD-mirror-face-dude (forgot his name). It was worth it in my humble opinion , its fun and not too serious (remember lube man..?). The book was not too serious : pirate stories, mega octopus from space, blue god winning vietnam in a few minutes.. I think he really understood Dr manhattan and his wish to be more human and how it can affect him. How his god nature is also a curse to feel connected to others. I even liked the things about authoritarianism/far right crazy people and how the readers of the Rorshach journald would be (IMHO they would be complotists minimum). before watching the show, alt right activists told us on youtube : it is a SJW show like ghost busters and star wars or facry6 they hate white people and men... but it is not. Here in europe far rightactivists are always coming back like waves of the ocean, we cant stop fighting them it is like a cancer. For batman the new movie, I liked your video and I have not watched it yet. I will come back eventually. Thank you for your videos, keep going man!
Great take