@@TaurusInvicta It would've made sense for Yoda species to reach the equivalent age of one year old by the age of 10, 50 for a 5-year-old human kid, yet Grogu is still a toddler baby with the intelligence level of a two-year-old with superpowers at 53-years-old. It's an odd choice by the creators of The Mandalorian for making Grogu acting younger and dumber than my youngest Dachshund, Pepper (Pictured on the right of my channel art if you want to look). A 30 or 35-year-old Grogu would've made perfect sense since The Clone Wars happened during that time and Grogu wouldn't communicate well enough during that time until he reaches a certain age where he can if he chooses too.
@brunofeliksiak1594 Only weaker and less disciplined Sith acolytes like Maul are ruled by their emotions. The true masters like Palpatine, Bane, and Dooku are fully in control
@@Mare_ManPalpatine is by far the most unbalanced of those 3, extremely prideful and overconfident (with good reason) Bane other than being power hungry like any sith should be I agree with you And would dooku be more of a dark Jedi than a sith, he had the title, sure but did he believe the ideas of the sith, he was better trained than maul but was that because of Palpatine or from the Jedi?
"Emotion is a vital and volatile fuel. It burns hot and can driver you much higher than you think. However, it MUST be guided by the engine of reason and logic. To do otherwise is to be controlled by your emotions instead. If you are to be Sith, you will let nothing control you." - Darth Erebus.
It never sat well with me when Barris was trapped in the rubble and Luminara was basically like "Guess shes dead now, oh well". She didnt even try to rescue her
"There's not enough time." Luminara... you don't get to play that card when you're essentially loitering around waiting for a ride, showing zero vigilance or anticipatory tension regarding its arrival. She reminds me of those people who make sure I know to meet them at their place at a certain time so we can make a certain movie showing or something, yet take five minutes with prep once I'm there when they could've done it an hour ago and we already need to be out the door. "But if it is their time..." That 'If' means that you don't know, so get digging and find out before you start making the funeral arrangements.
Say what you want about how George Lucas handled the prequel trilogy. However, his decision to show the absolute corruption and hypocrisy of both the Jedi and the republic gives the audiences a greater understanding of how these two institutions of power can fall and lead to the creation of the galactic empire.
And that would be both impressive and a sobering observation, if I had any faith that George had actually planned anything of the sort. But I very much do not hold any such faith in him or his capabilities.
Lucas was always a fantastic idea guy. OT and Prequels reference so many things that they're originals. Prequels suffered because there wasn't enough pushback and collaboration, Star Wars is a collaborative project. The Sequels have fantastic scenes, characters, plot points in isolation, but put together in the wrong order.
Not really true that the Jedi were corrupt at any point. Not being in charge of any political power doesn’t make you corrupt like a politicians. Jedis weren’t politicians
Great job George. You ruined the legendary sacred "good guy" force users to try and be clever about your hang ups with the Church. Yay for us. And you used the Republic to express your hang ups with W. Bush. Such insight. Woo.
She also criticized Ventress for not being as skilled as Dooku in Form 2, and then proceeded to be completely curbstomped by Ventress when they dueled. One of the strongest Jedi my ass
@@turtlesandmoreturtles the Jedi teach that their is wisdom in experience but luminara obviously didn't take ahsoka's prior encounters with ventress into consideration until she was saved by ahsoka. Still at least luminara showed her more respect afterwards.
It just show that while Kanan was a good man. He was still drinking the Kool-aid that remained from the order. He and Ezra were good for one another in many ways.
Kanan was basically a kid when Order 66 happened, so he didn't really understand or perceive the full shades of grey or complexities of the Jedi Order he was part of.
@@barracuda6900 And he would have had his head filled with legendary stories of the various masters during the Clone Wars, so he would have them up on a pedestal as it was only with time, experience, and a non-dogmatic master that a padawan would start to learn the truth of some masters. For instance much of Ahsoka's trial and the discovery of Barriss' betrayal was concealed from the many Jedi who were away from Coruscant at the time. He would never know that Luminara was in effect a failed master whose padawan had turned on the order.
An ex gf and I used to crack up making fun of Luminara and Baris in this episode. Baris seemed resigned to death and Luminara seemed as resigned to Baris' death as Baris was. So morbid and goth. We used to laugh our asses off, impersonating them in various, imagined, life-threatening situations.
@GenerationTech and it flows through the whole story arc. When Luminara goes after Poggle and gets captured by the queen, she tells Obi Wan and Anakin to leave her and escape. Then, when the worms take over the ship as Asohka and Baris are transporting poggle, Baris begs Asohka to kill her. The two of them are absolutely jonesing to prove how selfless they are by dying for no good reason. It's pretty comical.
Barrie once said “do you ever question if it’s actually right for us to shut down our emotions in times of war?” Well judging by everything that happened, looks like that was really not a good way of teaching.
Sacrificing your empathy can help you to more easily function and survive... but it will make you more comfortable with thinking and doing terrible things at later times too, and that empathy may become hard to locate again for reactivation.
not to mention that it was the very attachment and empathy that anakin had for ahsoka that led the truth to be revealed when she was framed for a crime she hadn't committed. I think one episode trilogy that i think addresses this whole anti emotion thing from the jedi very well, is the episodes of the lurmen village in the very first season. Aayla secura and ahsoka end up actually HAVING TO leave anakin behind, for the sake of what's best for the group. And Ahsoka actually addresses the dilema between having to "forsake" people you love for the greater good (as she's having to do to anakin in that moment), in wich the stronger the attachment, the harder it is to choose, and they actually discuss this in a very interesting balanced way. I find it interesting that they address it in a way that even if you find exaggerated, they make you agree is understandable. When Aayla says to ahsoka that her former master was like a father for her, so she understand what she's going through. And she says that she decided that for the greater good, she (Aayla) had to stay away from her master. She even says "Ahsoka, try not to let your attachment, make it to hard for you to sacrifice 1000 lives for one". The way they address this, as people who are involved in a war, even if you disagree, is very understandable. However, Luminara man.... she does take it waaaayyy too far. And the code itself and the "anti emotions" thing is very weird and wrong.
Luminara’s behavior during the rescue of hers and Anakin’s apprentices really gets on my nerves. The entire time, she is essentially telling Anakin to give up, more or less saying that they are already dead. And if it wasn’t for Anakin’s determination, they would be. And yet after he does rescue them, Luminara claims that she never gave up on them despite the fact that that was literally what she was doing the entire time. If I didn’t know better, I’d say Luminara was trying to get the padawans killed.
On one hand, I get there's supposed to be a lesson about accepting the death of one you care about, something Anakin couldn't do when his mother died. But that should be AFTER the person is confirmed dead, not when they're still possibly alive.
I had an idea: I think the true start of Barriss's fall might have been the brain worm episode. Even though the worm was removed from her, consider the sheer terror and PTSD she must have felt from being mind-controlled by an eldritch bug alien. And what would Luminara say to Barriss after that? "You did your best," or something worthless like that. The absolute lack of empathy Luminara would have shown would have cemented how awful the Jedi were. And yes, combine this episode with the previous Super Tank episode when Luminara gave up on saving Barriss. Nearly died, got brainwashed, then nearly died again? Nah fam, you're just doing your job and the Force works in mysterious ways. Now move on and keep fighting battle droids.
Makes perfect sense to me, Barris is after all a Teenager. You cant go through this kind of thing and NOT be traumetized. Heck Anakin was in huge parts the same problem, if the Jedi simply had him attend therapy after he was freed he probably wouldnt have turned so easeley.
@@merafirewing6591 Wich she because of the rules acually couldnt and as only members of there race can train them, they probably all have the same mindset. Altaugh it certenly would be intresting to see what would happen if Luminara died on Geonosis and maybe Barris had to be traught by Obi Wan, a FAR more compassionte person. Being more often around Ashoka would probably helped a lot too
I remember reading a book about Revan. He was recently redeemed and returned to the Jedi order. But the Jedi order did not want Revan to teach padawans. Even though he taught many apprentices. The consulers of the order did not like Revan, who mastered the dark and light sides of the force and saw his views and knowledge of the force as a danger of upsetting the dogmatic view of the Jedi. Any innovation is stifled in an environment like the jedi order.
Luminara was _being illogical,_ a Padawin is a vital resource and shouldn't be discarded casually. She had put time and effort into training her Padawin, from her own viewpoint she should have tried to at least confirm that her investment had been lost before abandoning the rescue effort. Jeez what was Luminaras own master like?
She was illogical yes. But not because she had no attachment to her padawan and felt if she died, such was the way of things. She is illogical because, if you feel death is inevitable and should not be prevented nor mourned. Why are you out here fighting? You literally do not care about Anything. The never be attached attitude always struck me as a do nothing either attitude.
@vominomi Actually the jedi ways became twisted and corrupted over time. Without the Sith to fight, the jedi lost sight of their original ways and became the jedi they are now. Religious zealots playing the part of soldiers. It was people like Revan, Dooku, Qui-gon and Anakin who challenged and questioned the views of the jedi. And when the Jedi refused to do anything about the suffering of the galaxy's people, they either distanced themselves, or left entirely. (In Anakin's case, destroy the flawed order). The order's arrogance led them to willingly ignore their humanity, becoming apathetic and uncaring to those who suffered. Let me ask you. During the time of the jedi, did they ever once attempt to wipe out the crime syndicates that propegated slavery? Did they stop the Hutt Cartel from extorting people, or crack down on the death stick black market on their home system? Unfortunately, they ignored the people they had sworn to protect, and became interested with the politics of the galaxy. With their stance being the way it was, is it any surprise why so many jedi during the Clone Wars began to feel the darkness creeping in?
I feel bad for Barris Offee for not having a master who cared for her the way that Anakin did for Ahsoka. I agree, the war broke Barris, what she said about how the Republic was failing and that it was only a matter of time was entirely true. Honestly I think that the war took a toll on Anakin too, by episode 3 he was tired and worn down by the war, his frustration and distrust of the council, the pressure of being the Chosen One, etc…It’s no wonder he finally snapped and went all dark side.
Also don't forget that Luminara Undulii is the Jedi who told young Trace and Rafa Martez to essentially just "suck it up" after a speeder crashed into their apartment and killed their parents during a chase with Ziro... Great values on this woman
She saved a lot more killing of the Martez sisters mom and in the middle of a war I don’t think you can just stop what your doing and apologize to who Evers family mem ever dies
@@willfanofmanyii3751 Stupid. You go back to speak to them after the job is done. If I was a cop hunting a serial killer and I'm on the tale of said killer, I don't stop to talk to bystanders of any other victims because every death that comes thereafter is on your head for letting them get away without even trying.
I viewed Master Luminara as being very rigid. While not unbendable she, like her padawan had trouble adapting when things don't go to plan. Such as her fight with Ventress. A pure duel Luminara had the upper hand, but when Ventress started using underhanded tactics Luminara practically crumbled.
Im glad you said this. People are calling her trash but she was matching ventress in the force and pushing her back in sabers. It was the use of the environment that got her.
The concept of a fair fight is a myth, in fact and in fiction. Ventress used every tactic she felt practicable and practical, that is the nature of combat. Luminara's stubbornness, her clinging to one method above all others is what did her in. She refused to think outside the box that the Order imposed on itself. That is why the Order failed. It's enemies adapted and changed. The Order trained to fight the last war. The enemies of the Order trained to fight the next war.
Your comments about Luminara and Bariss not being fit for war are spot on. That was the insidious genius of Sidious' plan. The Jedi, with the exception of a few, were not fit to lead troops in a war. Not only would this weaken the Republic resources, but it would necessarily put the Jedi in a spot that removed them from the peace process (which is where Luminara and Ki Adi Mundi belonged), while at the same time killing off scores of powerful Jedi Masters and Knights.
Not to mention having the Jedi fighting alongside clones who were treated like Doritos (eat all you want; we'll make more) - and who were still living conscious beings with a presence in The Force to shatter the Jedi battle by battle.
It was also a test to see if the Padawans could work together and complete a mission that dangerous on their own. Anakin didn't want Ahsoka doing it at all because he didn't think she was ready for the responsibility. Only after meeting Barris did he agree to the idea.
lol could you imagine if they switched padawans for that mission? Bariss stressed out trying to keep up with Anakin, meanwhile Ahsoka annoyed with Luminara being so by-the-books
@@Tredlex They sort of did that in an earlier episode. Though while Barriss never worked with Anakin in the Clone Wars (they did work together as Padawans on Ansion pre-war) Luminera worked with Ashoka and it was...amusing.
From a strategic viewpoint Jedi knights almost always acted as battlefield leaders, so the Separatist leadership would immediately question where the other Jedi knight was when they saw only one leading the Clone troops. Padawan learners were just that - “learners” - and with two Jedi knights on the field, their absence would simply be attributed to the exceptional danger of this particular battle.
Because padawans aren't professional enough to hold the fire of hundreds of battle droids. Do you remember how in tales they showed us Ahsoka's training with clones? So it was later than the second Battle of Geonosis. But the diversion for them is the very thing, the probability that they will run into something serious is very small. Well, what can you do if one bug slept badly and reported to his own that incomprehensible girls at the reactor.
One of the best parts of the final season of Clone Wars was Yoda confronting his dark side. He realized the hubris of the Jedi’s dogmatic denial that they too had a dark side, and that only by recognizing one’s own dark side, but refusing to give it power, can one have mastery over it.
Then just like 2 years later he's senile and completely forgot that whole thing, telling Anakin the Jedi equivalent of "lol shit happens just get over it bro" 🤦♂but of course, Dave Foni doesn't care about consistency.
@@OG-ColorfulAbyss. Consistency is kind of hard to have when you're trying to tell any kind of meaningful story with character's whose future is already written. Which is also why the prequel trilogy should be cut loose and refilmed from the ground up. They are not doing current Star Wars content any favors, and there is no value in building up to them anyway, since nobody really likes them.
@@reijishian2593 lmao it's really not hard at all. You just have to have a properly functioning brain and know what you're doing and have seen/read the previous material. Prequels are still way more consistent than all the trash Disney has put out. No in their right mind gives a positive fuck about current Star Wars except for how much it's being ruined.
The one lesson the Jedi never learned. By having no attachment to anything or anyone, no one had an attachment to them. Something that can be seen in the Clone Wars episode where Cad Bane took several senators hostage. Even a senator like Amidala was mystified when Anakin gives her his lightsaber. This shows how detached the Jedi were, them also being seen as baby stealers. Of course it was so easy to turn the public against the Jedi. As for Luminara, if she is this detached, can she even claim to care about anything or anyone? The first moment her Padawan is MIA, she treats the situation like her Padawean is KIA. We have seen many droids that care more for their meatbags or even each other. As for fear leading to the Dark Side, take every reaction of the Jedi to the Sith appearing again and define their reaction as anything else but fear.
Can't be a nurturing representative of a natural force connecting all living beings, matter and energy if you're dogmatically disconnected. Avoiding a thing rather than experiencing and practicing a thing leaves you poorly prepared to face said thing
This is why i was ok with luke allowing marriage in the new jedi order in legends. Luke had learned love can be a force for good. Anakin had, in addition to having attachment, a tendency for possessiveness, which partly led to his turn. Luke thought that mutual support and respect would help temper these and for the most part he was right. Also, i think the old jedi order ignored "human" nature to their detriment.
You kind of have a right to possessive when your entire life and everything you have has been stolen from you, twice, and the second time by your supposed saviors, and everyone around you is just going "lol get over it bro"
Ironically, Barriss is around Anakin's age and he actually knows her and has been on missions with her and Luminara when they were both Padawans (at least in Legends [not sure about Canon]). Ani just got promoted to Knight earlier due to his unique brand of over-the-top heroism and recklessness. It's odd how the show likes to depict her and Ahsoka as being about the same age but I think that it works to contrast them or something. It is nice to see them act like peers despite the age gap, though. There's always something to learn from your youngers. Elders seem to get that arrogance about them and forget that, despite their tendency to be hasty and reckless, youngers have good ideas and smart thoughts too. Of course, this is about flexibility versus being too by the book (a common theme in SW, oddly enough [or maybe not since war is one of the central points of the series]).
That's what I remember. Barriss being around Anakin's age, I was confused when Barriss showed up in CW as young looking. Thinking what did she sacrificed to retain her youthfulness?
I'd say Mundi was probably worse, mostly because of his blatant psychopathic following of the code, while hypocritically benefitting from special treatment.
They’re both about equal but in different terms. They both are evil do to the same things. Thee hypocrites who are fanatics to the order and lack empathy. What made kaidi evil was his refusal to save anyone for attachment purposes. He would watch worlds burn gladly While for luminara it was the fact that she would murder and kill cold heartedly. Luminara committed war crimes. Enough that it barass
I think the contrast between Luminara and Barriss really helps our understanding of the jedi. I wonder if we'll see more of Barriss in the future, but I don't know if adding anything to her story would water it down.
Depends on how they add to it. There's some really good fanfiction that's been done on Barriss and some of the ways they expanded on her story added some fantastic depth. I think she makes a really good parallel to Anakin, especially in relation to Ahsoka. Both are fallen Jedi who were close to Ahsoka, and both blame the Jedi Order for it's descent into darkness (and are variously correct, to differing degrees). To that end, I think the best way to take Barriss story is in some kind of redemption arc. Not one she necessarily survives (though I argue that Barriss living would be more interesting as the character can then be used in the future), but one where Ahsoka and Barriss are able to at least reconcile. I think this would be especially poignant as, in the Ahsoka show, it is very likely that Ahsoka will speak to Anakin's force ghost. She would know that it's possible to find the light again, and that it might be possible for Barriss too. It could lead to some very good storytelling. The biggest problems with takes on Barriss are ones that undercut her role in the Temple Bombing. The only twists on it that I've read which 'work' are: where the bombing plot has gone completely awry and Barriss' plans have fallen apart (I think it's quite obvious that that's what happened), where people she relied on while she planned the bombing chose to change certain things which made the bombing more deadly than planned (which would partially explain why Barriss chose to kill Leta, beyond saving her own skin -- and would also make her easier to empathize with for the audience), and where the bombing is framed directly in relation to far more violent things she did during the Clone Wars which were perceived as "okay" because they were actions taken in war--and especially ones she was ordered to do and had no say in (bombing strategic targets in populated areas, leading battles which she knew ahead of time would lead to devastating losses, and similar--especially on more morally gray fronts like Umbara). The twists that generally don't work are: where the bombing plot was mainly organized by someone else, where Palpatine played a large role in tempting Barriss to the dark side before the bombing, where Barriss was under some form of mind control, and where Barriss was forced to do it, and where Barriss did not do it. Far more important than how the bombing happened though, is why Barriss chose to frame Ahsoka. I've seen this taken in a number of ways and honestly most of them work. Because it's not clear AT ALL why she would choose to do this. I think the best takes generally have Barriss framing it, in her mind, as "saving Ahsoka from the war/making her see how corrupt the Jedi have become". I think that's the best choice because she arguably succeeded, and in a sense she might have even saved Ahsoka's life by doing so. But at the same time it's horrifically fucked, which works with Barriss' thought process being corrupted by the dark side. Things that tend not to work so well are where she did it purely out of selfishness/to avoid being found out. I think that must be true to some degree, but it's a pretty boring sole motivation for betraying someone who's supposed to be a close friend, especially if they want to rely on this story in the future/build on Barriss' story. Also I'd be betraying myself if I didn't mention that them having some amount of romantic feelings for each other is an incredibly interesting way to take this. There's some basis for it as a writer for the Season 2 Barriss episodes apparently pushed for it. It can only up the tragedy of Barriss' betrayal, so I don't see a downside. It would also make the comparison between Barriss and Anakin more poignant as they would both be people who Ahsoka loved (either romantically or like family) who betrayed her. It's not necessary but it could be good!
Well you can faithfully devise a story that matches well with her dissolution of the Jedi ideology. For all we know she could became as jaded and isolationist as Jolee, or become a sith. You can really chose any path, but I personally would find it more interesting if she became an isolationist who simply wasn’t sith or Jedi.
She is basically the opposite of Ki Adi Mundi, she isn't the psychopath he is, but she displays a key problem with the Jedi. He actively gives no shits about those who depend on him, she is the definition of passivness not raising a finger to rescue her Padawan who can still be saved is a perfect example. Its why Ki adi and Luminara are fundamental the 2 worst Jedi of the era they are the poster children of why the populace mistrust the Jedi order in that time period.
I really felt no pity when I saw Luminara’s corpse in Rebels. Much as Baris turned out to be a bad person, I honestly blame Luminara for that… there’s no way Baris just randomly decided one day to blow up the Jedi temple without years if not decades of mistreatment and neglect… most of which from Luminara herself.
Just look at real life bombers and mass shooters: people who are lonely, who've usually experienced trauma, abuse and neglect in their formative years, who don't feel like anyone understands them or can help them, and ultimately that the world is evil and a particular group is to blame, and they must be punished.
@@vulcanhumor doesnt always match up with "lonely" or "traumatized", media just likes to drum that up. its more so have been experiencing all that because of propaganda and dogma which does not fit the reality of a situation and life or some group got to them during their formative years and twisted their brains (the beliefs they teach often create behaviors which isolate the person, a self fulfilling prophecy to place blame on others and the world). The gap between enforced dogma and reality makes them confused when the two ofcourse don't meet, rather than seeing their core values as flawed they strike out at an unfamiliar world they are maladjusted to deal with or even perceive, often targeting its most vulnerable members because it is easy.
wel we dont know why she did it,its easy to blame luminara but maybe a sith kept wispering manipulation in her ear? i mean annakin never realy had a reason to turn on the jedi either and he wouldnt have if it was not for palaptine wispering in his ear. allot of jedi turned bad because of sith influence.
@@Marcustheseer in this case I feel it was just her very strict teachings, idealism of the jedi and notions of superiority from her race, just... not matching up with what she witnessed in the war. because of the unstable way she reacted though, she just ended up making a key contribution to the sith's plans on multiple levels.
Completely relatable. I felt the exact same way when I watched "Weapons Factory." The problem is that the episode was trying to push a narrative and it was willing to sacrifice whatever characters they wanted in order to push it. In this case, they wanted to strongly hint at Anakin's overattachment and the consequences of it. Instead, Luminara came off as an idiot and Skywalker walked away an emotional hero. Another good example of this in the Clone Wars was in "Jedi Crash" and "Defenders of Peace" where the show was trying to promote some kind of pacifist's critique of the Jedi's involvement of the war. The end result was the critic looking like an apathetic buffoon to the audience and Skywalker, once again, walking away a hero. Those earlier episodes of the Clone Wars just kept trying to push these weird narratives out of left field and it kinda killed the storytelling here and there.
hahah, at times the writers were as disconnected to the actual world around them as the other characters and jedi were to the Republic. And the irony is, the message they pushed resulted in the destruction of the Order and the Republic. Maybe the writers were Sith?
What's really sad is that Offee before Filonis clone wars had a pretty good story line. She was an upstanding, albeit reserved, Jedi by the time Order 66 rolled around.
@@goffokfm6821 no. I mean Filonis. Unless of course...... You wanna pretend that he didn't have a heavy amount of creative control, especially later in the series (you know......... When Barris betrays the Jedi)
@@butcherpete2286 Up until season 7, George Lucas had final say on what did and did not go into that show. In fact a lot of the ideas, were his. The show was a creation of George Lucas, and was partially funded by him. The only ones that seem to be pretending are the ones who thinks George Lucas is not responsible for everything in the show up until season 7.
@@goffokfm6821 im.fully aware that he had final say and creative input. But having those things does *not* equate to coming up with and implementing every single little piece of story. Largely the story was conceptualized and based on Filonis ideas, at George's guidance. All of this to say that it's called "Filonis clone wars" because there is also "Tartakovskys clone wars" the 2003 micro series, which George also had a small hand in. Don't get caught up with me over this because I used the main directors name to differentiate between to series with similar names.
@@butcherpete2286 That's great an all, but you’re still trying to shift blame. It was Lucas’s creation. At any point if there was some idea or concept he did not like, he could have changed it, and he did on more than one occasion. He didn’t have a “small hand” in the 2008 series. He had a big hand, and was very involved. The blame lies With him. No one else. Not Filoni or anyone else. George Lucas.
One of the ironies of the original trilogy is that by trying to synthesize eastern and western spirituality via the Force and Jedi teachings, but setting that synthesis in a traditional western hero’s journey, Lucas inadvertently sets up a refutation of aspects of eastern philosophy. Specifically, the Jedi ideal of detachment, acceptance of death, and avoidance of passion mirrors the Buddhist rejection of worldly existence and desire as the source of suffering. Jedi detachment is rejected by Luke twice in the course of the original trilogy, and each of those rejections results in a measure of success. While Luke doesn’t defeat Vader at cloud city, his actions do contribute to his friends escape in the long run. Finally, Luke’s efforts to redeem Vader does succeed at the end of the trilogy. These rejections of Jedi detachment show the heroic and redeeming quality of love, which is a core element of the Western tradition. This then becomes an implicit argument for the superiority of Western morality and spirituality, despite Lucas’ efforts at forging a synthesis.
It doesn't refute it. Luke and Vader both let go at the same time. Lucas specifically said it was selfless love, not attachment that saved Vader. I know it seems contradictory, but whatever.
@@Hello-bi1pm It sounds contradictory because it IS contradictory. Lucas can say whatever he wants but at the end of the day he made the decision to make Luke and Vader father and son. If he wanted to make a point about "selfless love" without "attachment" then he could have made Vader completely unrelated to Luke and have the same string of events happen and that MIGHT have proven his point but Luke's very dramatic response to the revelation that Vader was his father says otherwise. Luke is very obviously and deeply affected by Vader being his father. He's affected so much by it that his EXACT words to Palpatine in the moment where he becomes a Jedi knight are "You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me." He draws a direct line from Anakin to himself in order to refute the dark side of the force. I know what Lucas WANTED to say through that scene but regardless of his desires what is presented is a story of a son's love redeeming a father's sin. Its something that would not have landed nearly as well with audiences if the screenplay bent over backwards to try to tell everyone that Vader being his father had nothing to do with his actions.
@@w4rd069 another part of the script which highlights this is the scene of Obi Wan appearing to Luke on Degobah: Luke - “There’s still good in him.” Obi Wan - “He’s more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.” Luke - “I can’t kill my own father.” Obi Wan - “Then the Emperor has already won.” This exchange not only emphasizes the significance of Luke’s attachment to Vader, it also shows a deep philosophical and moral weakness in the Jedi position. Obi Wan is exactly wrong. Luke’s attachment to Vader was not a victory for the Emperor, rather it was the cause of his defeat. Rather than having “already won” the Emperor had in fact already lost.
I never really put thought to it, but I always kinda hated Luminara, for all of the reasons you pointed out. Even as someone who prefers calm logical thinking in bad situations, she's so far removed from emotion that she can't even use it to inform her of possible solutions. There is value in controlling our emotions, working in the ER and ambulance, it's extremely valuable to stay calm in an emergency and be able to think things through. But even in those scenarios, I use my emotions and gut instincts to tell me if something isn't right, and then control those feelings to guide me without controlling me and loosing the ability to stay calm. Doing this helps me to catch problems that may not have been completely recognizable by logical observation alone, and then motivates me to take action, without forgetting to use strategy. On the other hand, Luminara comes up with a great initial plan, then when it doesn't go as planned, her strategy completely fell apart and she accepted the loss of her padawan without even trying to confirm if they were actually dead. I honestly think she's a horrible person, and she absolutely is an example of some of the many problems in the Jedi order of that period. While I am someone who loves the Jedi, they had serious problems that developed from blindly accepting extreme views of philosophy.
I think that nuance, as you described it, would have gone a long way in the series, but the writers and producers likely strayed toward the flawed perspective of underestimating the intelligence of some of the audience and viewers, or were just lazy and didn't want to be bothered to think too much themselves.
Luminara had flaws but she definitely wasn’t the worst Jedi. She was calm and kind. She had praise for ahsoka and even anakin and even had a little sense of humor. She even admitted she was wrong about underestimating ventress and admitted ahsoka was right and said her master should be proud. She always had her focus where it needed to be and was a good one time teacher for ahsoka like aayla was. And at least she did help get ahsoka and barriss out of the rocks and showed genuine relief and happiness when barriss was okay
She was calm not kind. She was never kind. Just polite. If she was kind and actually understanding her actions would have never been one of the main reasons for her padawan breaking.
Probably the bigger question with her was whether she was really someone who should have been elevated to master. Of course at the time she became master there was really no way to test her mettle if a galaxy spanning war broke out and whether she was really up to the task of being a leader in a rapidly evolving environment or whether she would have been more useful tucked away teaching younglings on Coruscant or running a Jedi hospital.
Anakin is a more compassionate master To many people that will feel like he is a superior master or person generally speaking because we want people, not robotic anti emotional code regurgitation meatbag machines. I'd say his success with Ahsoka is just as dependent on her own original natural talent for the force and combat as it is his unorthodox methods. Obviously he is proven (in appearance) to be among the most superior masters since his Padawan is one of the only ones to survive on her own merit (as opposed to Kestis who survived on his Masters suicide and Kanan who survived because Hunter let him go) but I wonder how far she'd have gone under another. Same questions get asked a lot about Anakin; if he'd had another master than Kenobi whether he'd be better or worse off.
Love this! Yes, Luminora and Anakin had no business sending Ahsoka and Baris sending them down in the tunnels. It was a stupid and reckless element of the plan. Also, the clone attack was supposed to be a feint, but it was carried out as a reckless and committed frontal assault. Lots like to blame this blunt force tactic on Anakin, but it was typical Jedi poor generalship. Anakin was aggressive, but he often found innovative solutions beyond frontal assault that defeated his enemy. Luminora and other Jedi Generals may have valued the clones as good Soldiers and precious life forms, but that didn’t stop them from treating them like battlefield pawns.
She really should have gone through a reality check and see her face of comfronting the fact that she should have been more aware of how she behaved. I wonder what went through her head as the clones captured her.
One thing to point out as well, in regards to how uminara reacted to her padawan potentially dying, is that she's actually neglecting her responsibilities. As a master she is responsible for the safety of her padawan. Yes, it's a dangerous world out there and they are right in the middle of it, but that only reinforces the need for a more protective attitude. People who so casually abandon someone they are responsible for cannot b e trusted with anything.
A big problem is also that Luminara’s style didn’t allow for Baris to develop the ability to think outside of her plan when things go wrong. As you said, it’s a lack of the ability to think critically.
Don't forget how cold hearted and disconnected she acted in season 7. While we didn't see it directly, we were given a description of it by one of the characters on Ashoka's arc in Season 7.
About the tunnel mission, I wholeheartedly believe Luminara was so keen for her padawan to lead the tunnel with Ahsoka because she was attempting to teach her a lesson. She had Bariss memorise the intricate system using her outdated methods and lead the mission with Ahsoka as if to say "see look! my old meticulous way worked!", and when it inevitably fails she attempts to teach Anakin a lesson of "hey if I fail and other people suffer, I'm ready to let go and make the sacrifice". The whole time, she was trying to say that she's right about something. Even in the confrontation with Ventress, when she realized that she's in over her head, her apologies to Ahsoka was not genuine. She speaks in the same manner of "see look I apologized! Im the good guy and the bigger person!". Every single time she's on screen, she is yearning to be right about something.
I'll give them credit, if that was a flaw they intended to have the character show, that of vain pride and of always trying to steal the spotlight, or of maintaining an air of being right no matter the cost, they did a bang up job with Luminara.
One more thing, in the Ahsoka's Walkabout arc in S7 E5-8, Trace and Rafa describe the Jedi they spoke with as beautiful with Green skin, but left them with only words after their parents had died as collateral damage in the aftermath of a Jedi chase. I believe the chase was after Bane held the Senate hostage to free Ziro, based on context i loosely remember from the conversation.
Yeah I absolutely hate her, I like to imagine she goes to her not anymore Padawan prison cell to argue with her about what she has done and her Padawan just yells at her master "Anakin Skywalker would have been a better Master than you are!" I like to think she was jealous at ahsoka.
@@lsthero5863 I may be mistaken but I think it was in the Legends novel Approaching Storm, a little before the start of the Clone Wars Luminara was a more kind master then because the war hadnt yet made her double down on the Jedi Code and Barris felt drawn towards Anakin thinking he was special but because of her own Jedi upbringing she didnt understand what she was feeling and why
100% agree on all of this - great video as always! I'm also a little surprised that Jedi didn't end up using shields like the Gungan energy shields for defense, considering that so many of their enemies used blasters...
@@alberteinstein453 possibly, but I feel like the concept holds (as Mandalorians also use shields); having something to protect you from blasters would just make sense, especially high volume of fire
@@Centaur255 true,but the mandalorians used small shields mounted on the wrist and they're beskar armour would be more efficient in protecting the body from radiation than the more common plastoid(that's what I think)
The Jedi code is the crystallisation of how detached the Order was from the rest of galaxy, the first line says it all ; There is no emotion, there is peace. I'm sorry but as a sentient being you are going to feel a maelstrom of emotions at any given time and rejecting them leaves you vulnerable to the more extreme ones, and thus the Dark side. The rest of the code is basically the Jedi trying to ignore fundamental parts of life, even death itself, as if they could control everything about themselves perfectly. I always preferred the alternative version that went with the more inclusive language ; Emotion, yet Peace. This tells Jedi that even the worst will pass if you are mindful and not to reject anything but understand yourself fully so you are never shaken and to be sure of what you feel is right. The Jedi had stagnated and they perished as all stagnation does, so tragic.
I can agree that The Jedi had took their creed too literally, but this is what it was meant to be. Jedi Code: - "There is no emotion, there is peace." This line emphasizes the Jedi's commitment to maintain inner peace and avoid being swayed by intense emotions. They strive to be calm and level-headed, as emotional turmoil can cloud judgment. - "There is no ignorance, there is knowledge." The Jedi value knowledge and seek to expand their understanding of the Force and the galaxy. They believe that wisdom and education are key to making informed decisions and solving problems. - "There is no passion, there is serenity." Jedi are taught to control their passions and desires, recognizing that attachment can lead to suffering and cloud rational thinking. Serenity allows them to maintain a clear mind and act selflessly. - "There is no chaos, there is harmony." This line encourages Jedi to bring order and balance to the galaxy. They strive to resolve conflicts peacefully and promote harmony among all living beings. Jedi value cooperation and Unity. - "There is no death, there is the Force." The Jedi understand that death is a part of life, and that through the Force, consciousness lives on. They believe in the interconnectedness of all living things and the eternal nature of the Force.
@@DLR1997 What the code is MEANT to say is very clear. What it, however, LITERALLY says is a case study in what this video is trying to get across. "There is no this, but there is that" is language that indicates denial. You are saying aloud that "this" should not exist and must instead be replaced wholly with "that." This is the entire point of the video; the jedi are hidebound to the literal meaning of their code and believe that very natural, human things like emotion, desire, and passion are things which must be denied and replaced in order to be a good jedi. This is not only impossible to do, it is foolish to attempt. Denial of those facets of humanity are, in essence, an attempt to put oneself above other people by saying "we do not experience these things as you do because we have found true wisdom in denying their existence." Through pretending to have no ego the Jedi exposed themselves to be, as the video said, "out of touch" with the galaxy they were meant to serve. They set themselves apart, insisting that only their judgement was truly clear and refuse to consider any other counsel besides their own. It was an outlook that ultimately led to the downfall of all they claimed to defend. As the commenter before you stated, this all could have been avoided or at least ameliorated by the Jedi adhering to the truncated version of their code: "Emotion, yet peace" "Ignorance, yet knowledge" "Passion, yet serenity" "Chaos, yet harmony "Death, yet the Force" That repetition of "yet" is important. It is a wording that allows and understands the existence of the first concept but acknowledges that it must be superseded and overcome by the concept that comes after it in the mantra. In this version the speaker is not denying the existence of things like emotion, ignorance, and passion (and also therefore not shaming the speaker for experiencing them as all people do) but admitting they exist and that through the teachings of the Jedi they can be overcome...or at least if they cannot be wholly overcome then the energy that comes with them out of the wellspring of each individual life can be redirected and controlled for the greater good of all through discipline, meditation, and other forms of spiritual, mental, and physical diligence. If the Jedi of the Clone Wars were more self aware and introspective then they would understand that although their connection to the force set them apart from most people in the galaxy, it would never separate them fully. They are still people; still fallible and prone to experience all the negativity surrounding the human condition and the attempt to purge themselves of that condition through denial was an act of hubris they foolishly told themselves was humility.
@@w4rd069 Nah. What the first guy said makes more sense. The Jedi code is alright as it is, and your version feels like a bastardization. It's just as easy to get overly technical about the ten commandments. "Thou shall not lie"? But, but... what if I like HAVE to lie in order to prevent yada yada yada. Everything can be broken down if you really want. But the sentiment of the Jedi code is what matters, and is a really valid one. A jedi is MEANT to be more than a normal person, to bear soul-crushing responsibility and sacrifice everything to serve ideas bigger than themselves. It's not meant to be easy. It's meant to be an impossible task that is only achievable "in theory". Pretty standard stuff for most IRL religions actually.
@@The_Moe_Szyslak_Exp_feat_Homer Its funny that you say "the Jedi code is alright as it is" and that what I've written is a "bastardization" because BOTH of the versions of the code written in this comment chain are canon. The mistake is thinking that they both say the same exact thing, just worded differently. They don't. Its also interesting that you bring up real world religion because the Jedi philosophy is very blatantly an approximation of Buddhism and other eastern forms of religious philosophy. This is where the Jedi code gets its proscription against "attachment" because it mirrors Buddhism in the idea that "attachments are illusions" that cause suffering and prevent people from reaching enlightenment. Its honestly so, so interesting that you bring up "thou shall not lie" specifically because Buddhism has something interesting to say about it. The Buddhist term "Upaya" is a concept that implies one be able to use "expedient means" to achieve a higher purpose. Basically, just because you can't achieve something perfectly doesn't mean its not worth achieving by any means that you can. Its a concept that is actually covered by the Buddha himself through parable in the Lotus Sutra. He tells a story about the house of a rich man that catches fire. The man is aware of the fire but his children are not and despite all of his warnings his children are not enthusiastic about heeding his warnings about the fire. So what does the man do? Does he throw his hands up and say "well, I tried via telling the truth and that wasn't good enough so I guess I just have to accept my children burning to death?" No. Instead he "lies" to his kids about some toys they want being outside the house so they will leave and escape the fire. The parable ends with the Buddha and his students agreeing that the father committed no real falsehood because the entire object of speaking to his children in this way was to save their lives. If the Buddha is able to understand that human nature often makes it impossible for them to "bear the soul crushing responsibility" of becoming enlightened and "sacrifice everything to serve ideas bigger than themselves" as you put it...If the Buddha whom the Jedi's own philosophy is based on can understand that human nature requires reflections, workarounds, exceptions and nuances then why can't the Jedi?
@@w4rd069 You really understand the nuances of the Jedi Code and I thank you for expanding on my short few paragraphs. In the end, the Force is much more complicated than the Jedi ever really wanted to admit and I am glad that the writers of Star Wars stories also realised this.
The Battle of Geonosis is better titled the Brawl of Geonosis, given the plan was just to have everyone just run and charge everyone else. Stands to reason the Jedi were many things, but competent Generals? They certainly were not. Of course in the scheme of the saga, that was likely one of the aspects that Sidious was counting on.
You seriously think that happened only ONCE? That's literally a walking trope. So much so that Jedi pretty much universally react to any vision as if it's coming true and EVERY time they act to avert it, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. And they ALWAYS try to act to prevent it. I have yet to see a Jedi EVER take a 'wait and see' approach to these visions and continue to live in the present while being mindful of the future. They're always desperately trying to see ahead to avoid what's coming and never realize they're barreling toward the very future they saw. It's old and tiresome. And yet whenever the Jedi do take a 'wait and see' approach, it always turns out the younger more action oriented Jedi was right and that they need to do something instead of waiting for some evil to finally reveal itself. It worked with Revan but now THAT trope has exhausted itself with market saturation. Can we for once get this mystical 'patience' that gets preached to actually pay off and allow a more casual nudge to avert catastrophe?
@@graveyardshift6691 That would indeed be nice. Also maybe we feel like our students are straying, we could just guide them back on the right path rather than…you know…killing them? Let’s leave killing our students to the Sith yeah?
Graveyard Shift. A bit too much Jedi haterade flowing in this comment section. "I have yet to see a Jedi EVER take a 'wait and see' approach to these visions - They're always desperately trying to see ahead to avoid what's coming and never realize they're barreling toward the very future they saw." Not really, in ESB Yoda and Obi-Wan told Luke to show restraint in response to his visions, only for him to barrel ahead into catastrophe; in TPM the council didn't overreact to Anakin despite their concerns about his future; and in ROTS Yoda sat and listened to Anakin talk about his visions and he didn't freak out, he just calmly talked to him and tried to tell him how to deal with his feelings, it was Anakin's own action-oriented approaches that led to his eventual downfall. Cases like the Togruta master trying to kill her apprentice aren't very common for the Jedi and are violations of their teachings, the Jedi overall are a good organization. People talk smack about them because they think it's cool to hate on Jedi nowadays.
@@alaskamark4562 All very good points, I think being force sensitive automatically brought about a certain level of instability that the Jedi constantly attempted to wrangle through order and meditation. I mean think about it, if you were in tune with the chaotic and surging energies of the universe, it would be easy to get washed away in the tide.
@@alaskamark4562 Counterpoint. The Jedi order has been destroyed several times over. Each time was the result of the Jedi Masters of the Jedi Council sitting on their hands for far too long waiting for the evil they've been detecting at the fringes of their consciousness. Then they surprise pikachu face when the threat pops up from literally underneath them and wipes them out. It has been destroyed three times in the Old Republic, once more during Revenge of the Sith, and even Luke was forced to disband once and go into hiding. The only way it's survived is that younger Jedi have literally gone 'fuck the wisdom of the elders, let GET SHIT DONE.'. Revan, Meetra Surik, the Army of Light, we know how it went down in RotS and even then we're still getting stories of Jedi survivors sticking to the empire here and there. Luke wasn't even idle in hiding. He eventually found a way back through direct action as opposed to just sitting still and doing nothing. They tell us it's supposed to be exceptionally rare that a Master freaks out and kills their own student but given all the stories we've been given, it's depressingly common. I am simply frustrated that they tell us one thing but considering how many times they trot out that story, that it's more common than we think and it makes the Jedi look exceptionally incompetent. Thereby the Sith look cooler by comparison.
One thing I’d like to suggest is a video analyzing the Legends version of Luke’s New Jedi Order and whether it did a good job of correcting the failings of its predecessor. A video by The Lore Master argued that it did, and I’m curious as to what your take would be.
That arena scene drove me crazy. How the Jedi did not form ranks.... no formation. just went berserker mode, jumped into the air and fought as individuals, not soldiers
Such a mystery why Barris turned on the Order. She probably picked Ahsoka as her patsy for the Jedi Temple bombing because of jealousy for not having as caring master as Anakin.
Depending on how deep you delve into Star Wars (EU novels, books and all that) it actually makes alot of sense. Unfortunately the Clone Wars series seems to selectively gloss over that ever subtle but relatable element wherein a character is slowly steered toward a particular state of being that eventually results in a seemingly unexpected change in their path in life, coming as a shock to everyone else, simply because the other characters either ignored or excused or explained away what they saw in that one character.
I like how you were able to precisely show what the Jedi Order had become. If they had more of an understanding of their emotions they could have prevented the clone wars from happening.
Great video, I think pointed the biggest difference between the Jedi and their predecessors the Je'daii regarding control of your emotions rather than emotions are bad.
9:50 So basically, the episode was SUPPOSED to show us Anikin's flaws of being too attached to Ahsoka, but what it actually did, was show the Jedi order was fucked, all the way to it's core.
At the risk of oversimplification, and I have alluded to this elsewhere, the Jedi Order trained and and educated on the premise that they were going to fight another war just like they fought the last war. The Order reflected on their victory but no further beyond it. They maintained an approach with the Force that worked for them in the past, and there is precedent for this, and one cannot blame the Order for maintaining that approach. After all it worked then, why not have it work next time. Trouble was the Sith reflected on their defeat, and made the sensible changes to their style of waging war. Put it this way, the Jedi Order failed to consider this sound military maxim: Do not base your plan of actions on what the enemy WOULD do. Base your actions on what your enemy COULD do.
And in CW season 7 the Martez sisters backsory let's you think that the "green skinned Jedi with striking blue eyes" who just told them to trust in the force when their parents died could be Luminara. It would fit very well.
14:20 The Sith v Jedi on how to deal with the darkside is rooted in standard psychology for a long time. There are two generalized ways of getting over phobia and/or trauma, and those two are abstinence and over-saturation. The former just keeps you "away" from the temptation, the other forces you to immerse yourself in what ever is troubling you, at all times if possible. (See any correlations yet?) Trying to find a middle ground, or third path, is admirable, as both of the fore mentioned "cures" have their drawbacks. That's why we're here.
Were the Jedi like Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, and Mace, truly great Jedi or were they just the best of a order that had grown lax from generations of peace? how would they compare to older generations who had to deal with the constant threat of Sith and other dark side threats on the reg?
I interpret Luminara being unwilling to act when Ahsoka and Barress are in danger beneath the facility as a consequence of fatalism, a facet of many religions and philosophies, not personal arrogance.
I always really liked luminara. She embodied what the jedi order had become and while it was bad for them and leading to the death of their order, I can at the same time greatly respect the ideology. Also I feel Luminara showed lots of emotion when she thought her padawan was dead. All jedi feel emotion, they just train themselves not to allow it to hold any power over them. It always seemed to me that she knelt down to compose herself and focus on the force to begin her well trained process of accepting then quickly moving past deep emotions such as the loss of a padawan. Anakin on the other hand dwelt on them to a near dangerous level. Great video though.
You got a like from me for saying you were happy to do this video finally. It sounded like a weight lifted off your chest a little bit there. I respect that.
Agreed. The Jedi became an arrogant powerful group deeply affected by group thinking. That is why I so much appreciate characters like Qui-Gon Jinn, who managed to remain true to The Force and refusing to take part of the biased Jedi counsel. It is a pity that Dooku did not manage to control his frustrations in a more productive manner. Yoda's arrogance greatly contributed to the Jedi's demise. He only truly evolved after years in exile.
Thank you for covering her. I've always been curious about Luminara and now I have a better understanding of her. Even as a kid, I didn't like how... cynical she was. But now I see it's not because she chooses to, but because she's programmed that way.
did you know that there is a certain distance in which you are guaranteed to be killed by a person with a knife before you can draw your gun? now imagine that distance is infinite because not only can a jedi kill you or knock you out from far away, but any bullets you shoot at them are useless. You can't put modern day standards of weaponry on a superpowered warrior with a laser sword. lol
Luminara was also shit talking to Ventress, pissing her off and that nearly got her killed despite Ahsoka trying to warn her beforehand. But no. She got overconfident, thinking she could handle Ventress and look what happened. Luminara didn't listen. Glad you pointed it out in the video. While I do not fully hate Luminara like I do with Mundi and Windu, I think Luminara does act like her shit don't stink and is a know-it-all kind of person.
Which really felt bizarre because I'd always thought there was a bare minimum entry level prereq to get on the Council or become a Master in regards to power and expertise at Jedi-ness so how could Ventress back in season 1 overcome one? Idk Apparently Luminara was just a shit skill level Jedi Master No wonder Anakin was upset he was better than most of the Council.
@@ClericOfPholtus Ventress was more skilled than most Jedi, simple as that. Luminara was simply too arrogant to recognize that a "mere assassin" who's not even a true Sith could be better than her.
@@RedXlV and yet on other occasions a shitty cyborg or an apprentice can take her on no problem. Inconsistent. If Luminara is actually that shit then it makes no sense for her to be on the council much less considered 'so powerful'
@@rodgill9376 for real? Good then if so. Don't know why I thought that, just assumed I guess. They needed better title differentiation for the Jedi Teachers vs Heads of the Order both being called Master gets confusing
You maake the best star wars videos. You dont just regurgitate whats in aa book or movie you actually put thought and personal opinion in it. Thank you
As in religion, there are different interpretations of the force. I will always have reverence for Luke Skywalker new jedi order in the EU. Personal attachments depending on the individual are to be valued and encouraged. Love has a huge part to play in the light side of the force.
And that is why Luke Skywalker-in the original mostly great EU canon, became one of the greatest Jedi Masters-if not THE greatest Jedi Master. He never suppressed anyone, he made sure they understood their feelings. He didn't always get it right, but I think it's safe to say that whenever an apprentice of his turned to the dark side, NONE OF IT was his fault. In fact, if they listened to him more, Particularly Kyp Durron (though he redeemed himself afterwards) and Jacen Solo, they never would have turned. Luke was awesome back in the old days.
The issue with having the masters go behind the lines is that the Geonosians could see the Jedi missing and wonder where they are. The best idea would have been to send one Master and one Padawan inside and the other stay behind. And honestly I’m not sure if the whole idea of that episode was to show Anakin’s flaws. I think it might have been to show the good and right place Anakin’s flaws came from while showing the downside of the Jedi way that fouled him up
Don't forget that its implied that when the Martess sister's parents died, Luminara rescued them from the ruble of their home and coldly said "Your parents are dead, but rejoice for they have become one with the force." And started those two on a path of despising the Order, the Republic, the war, and deciding to become criminals to survive in the corrupt world of the Empire.
I wonder what happened to Luminara after The approaching Storm. Because if she acted the way she does in this novel, she would have already jumped into the canyon to dig for Barriss while Anakin was still trying to see through the dust. Maybe she was kidnapped and exchanged during the first battle for Geonosis... 🤔
@@Lobsterwithinternet The Clone Wars episodes with Luminara (except for the possible references in season 7) were made years before Disney took over, and the Approaching Storm is a legends book. Disney definitely deserves its fair share of flak but they are irrelevant here since any contradictions between the book and the Clone Wars series already existed by the time they bought the franchise.
@@Lobsterwithinternet Filoni rewriting stuff simply because could started with the very beginning of The Clone Wars, when Ahsoka was brought in Anakin's padawan. It had previously been established that padawans are *always* chosen by their master, but Ahsoka is assigned to Anakin by the Council without notice.
First of all, The Clone Wars is part of Legends. Any inconcistency would have eventually been ironed out and explained if Disney hadn't bought Star Wars The way I see The Approaching Storm in this context, is that Luminara wasn't as unaffected by things as she actually lets on. My theory is that the war made her descend into a state of depression and eventually cold stoicism. She probably adopted this mentality as a spiritual safety mechanism and an easy answer to the horrors of the war. All the more reason why Barriss would hate what the Jedi had become. In that novel, all she did was go on a wholesome adventure, learn about the local cultures and single handedly prevented a planetary civil war. That was what the Jedi life was MEANT to be like. The war turned Luminara into a different (worse) person, and robbed Barriss of her sense of purpose. To me, I think the different portrayls of the two characters from the novels and the late stage of the Clone Wars actually works out perfectly. Makes the world feel richer for seing characters actually change in mindset as time passes, instead of being completely or mostly static.
All of these failings of the order listed here are adding greatly to Eno Cordovas story in Jedi fallen Order and his continued backstory in Jedi Survivor, it also shows exactly what drove Dagan Gera to his fall, like many others before him. It isn't emotions and attachements that make you fall, it is being incapable of controlling and guiding these emotions. Attachments don't make you fall, it is negative emotions running unchallenged, and this used to be different waaay back when, but as we know the code changed a few times and the result was arrogant, blind and disconnected people sitting in their ivory towers, uncaring for the people and the world they lived in. Ironically this also made them blind to the living force and cosmic force as a whole, they only interacted with teh localised force, which is what made jedi surviving years after order 66 a lot stronger, case and point Cal Kestis, who grew strong enough to be on par with a jedi from the golden age of the jedi order.
In war, if you are not anybody who tried to prevent it from coming, you are either a bad person for participating, the one who caused it, the one who revels in the suffering of others, or are simply ones caring out orders of any side.
I liked Luminara; she was calm and Kind. However, Lumainara shouldn't have said what she said to the Martinez sisters; Luminara should have been more considerate than that. Luminara wasn't the smartest Jedi. She and Anakin should not have sent their padawans down in the tunnels without supervision (assuming Luminara assumed Barris would take charge). Luminara owned up that she should not have underestimated Ventress, and Luminara was talking too much. However, Luminara wasn't a good master because she gave up on her padawan TWICE back to back. Luminara should have been paying more attention to Barris because maybe it started as minor and got big to the point where Barris blew up the temple and framed it on Ahsoka, and yet there supposed to be friends!
"Controlling your emotions while being in love; That's what they should teach you. Love itself can save you, not condemn you." Joli Bindo referring to the Jedi's teachings - KOTOR.
Luminara was a great Jedi, she separated her feelings and followed the code to its word. She became apathetic to the actual suffering of the galaxy. “Apathy is death.” She was willing to live and let live. If the order had never join the war she would have been fine with the death caused by the CIS.
Of course she would have. She’s a walking hypocrite. She would gladly watch people die and say it’s for the order. When in reality they’re supposed to protect. The falls to the same shit that makes kaidi evil. A complete lack of empathy and a fanatical belief in the more hardcore tenets of the code
Love seeing Kotor 2 koriban arc being quoted, kreia explained that apathy killed the Jedi order, in that era. Sadly they didn't learn from their mistakes hundreds of years later
I'll think more about Kanan. I agree *wholeheartedly* about the Golden Age and its lull being toxic to the Jedi Order, to the level of the madness of the Kingpriest in the Dragonlance setting. It's only natural... that was Darth Bane's plan for the Rule of Two all along. The Sith sold enough rope for the Jedi and the Republic to hang themselves and... it worked.
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I mean she has no issue sending child soldiers(clones) to die en masse. Kinda hard to call any Jedi good there.
@@TaurusInvicta It would've made sense for Yoda species to reach the equivalent age of one year old by the age of 10, 50 for a 5-year-old human kid, yet Grogu is still a toddler baby with the intelligence level of a two-year-old with superpowers at 53-years-old. It's an odd choice by the creators of The Mandalorian for making Grogu acting younger and dumber than my youngest Dachshund, Pepper (Pictured on the right of my channel art if you want to look). A 30 or 35-year-old Grogu would've made perfect sense since The Clone Wars happened during that time and Grogu wouldn't communicate well enough during that time until he reaches a certain age where he can if he chooses too.
Allen, Atris is worse.
@@TaurusInvicta Perhaps, perhaps not.
🤔 Only ten characters?!! Well, I could use "Bad @ss Mofo" instead.
The Sith never learned to control their emotions, and the Jedi never learned to live with their emotions.
The Sith are _all about_ mastering their emotions
@@Mare_Manthey are slaves of their emotions, palpatine fears death and vader have anger issue, it makes them stronger but unbalanced...
@brunofeliksiak1594 Only weaker and less disciplined Sith acolytes like Maul are ruled by their emotions. The true masters like Palpatine, Bane, and Dooku are fully in control
@@Mare_ManPalpatine is by far the most unbalanced of those 3, extremely prideful and overconfident (with good reason)
Bane other than being power hungry like any sith should be I agree with you
And would dooku be more of a dark Jedi than a sith, he had the title, sure but did he believe the ideas of the sith, he was better trained than maul but was that because of Palpatine or from the Jedi?
"Emotion is a vital and volatile fuel. It burns hot and can driver you much higher than you think. However, it MUST be guided by the engine of reason and logic. To do otherwise is to be controlled by your emotions instead. If you are to be Sith, you will let nothing control you." - Darth Erebus.
It never sat well with me when Barris was trapped in the rubble and Luminara was basically like "Guess shes dead now, oh well". She didnt even try to rescue her
Especially when she can sense that they're alive
Imo, I felt like through the force she lost them, but then ahsoka got the transmitter working again and then luminara helped anakin save them🤷♂️
Yeah, I can see why she snaped. The only parental figure Offee had in her life wrote her off for dead in a second.
Yeah... That struck me like WTF?!! If I was Barris, and I realized that how she reacted, while I was under that rubble, I'd kick her in the shin.
"There's not enough time."
Luminara... you don't get to play that card when you're essentially loitering around waiting for a ride, showing zero vigilance or anticipatory tension regarding its arrival.
She reminds me of those people who make sure I know to meet them at their place at a certain time so we can make a certain movie showing or something, yet take five minutes with prep once I'm there when they could've done it an hour ago and we already need to be out the door.
"But if it is their time..."
That 'If' means that you don't know, so get digging and find out before you start making the funeral arrangements.
Say what you want about how George Lucas handled the prequel trilogy. However, his decision to show the absolute corruption and hypocrisy of both the Jedi and the republic gives the audiences a greater understanding of how these two institutions of power can fall and lead to the creation of the galactic empire.
And that would be both impressive and a sobering observation, if I had any faith that George had actually planned anything of the sort. But I very much do not hold any such faith in him or his capabilities.
This how democracy dies to thunderous applause.
Lucas was always a fantastic idea guy. OT and Prequels reference so many things that they're originals. Prequels suffered because there wasn't enough pushback and collaboration, Star Wars is a collaborative project.
The Sequels have fantastic scenes, characters, plot points in isolation, but put together in the wrong order.
Not really true that the Jedi were corrupt at any point. Not being in charge of any political power doesn’t make you corrupt like a politicians. Jedis weren’t politicians
Great job George.
You ruined the legendary sacred "good guy" force users to try and be clever about your hang ups with the Church.
Yay for us.
And you used the Republic to express your hang ups with W. Bush.
Such insight.
Woo.
She also criticized Ventress for not being as skilled as Dooku in Form 2, and then proceeded to be completely curbstomped by Ventress when they dueled. One of the strongest Jedi my ass
Luminara probably would have faired better if she hadn't underestimated ventress.
@@CloneScavengerVulpin8389 exactly, she was arrogant
@@turtlesandmoreturtles the Jedi teach that their is wisdom in experience but luminara obviously didn't take ahsoka's prior encounters with ventress into consideration until she was saved by ahsoka.
Still at least luminara showed her more respect afterwards.
Most powerful.... in the very safe scenarios of dealing with a few outlaws and maybe rouge agents on fringe worlds.
"Amateurish, sloppy" then proceeds to get destroyed.
I think it's funny how Kanan thought she'd a better teacher than him. She was the last teacher Ezra would want
It just show that while Kanan was a good man. He was still drinking the Kool-aid that remained from the order.
He and Ezra were good for one another in many ways.
Grammar nakama grammar
@@mugi-wharingan8150 ???
Kanan was basically a kid when Order 66 happened, so he didn't really understand or perceive the full shades of grey or complexities of the Jedi Order he was part of.
@@barracuda6900 And he would have had his head filled with legendary stories of the various masters during the Clone Wars, so he would have them up on a pedestal as it was only with time, experience, and a non-dogmatic master that a padawan would start to learn the truth of some masters. For instance much of Ahsoka's trial and the discovery of Barriss' betrayal was concealed from the many Jedi who were away from Coruscant at the time. He would never know that Luminara was in effect a failed master whose padawan had turned on the order.
An ex gf and I used to crack up making fun of Luminara and Baris in this episode. Baris seemed resigned to death and Luminara seemed as resigned to Baris' death as Baris was. So morbid and goth. We used to laugh our asses off, impersonating them in various, imagined, life-threatening situations.
Too bad the goth kids from South Park didn't show up to burn down the CIS' Hot Topic and teach the goth Jedi what being truly goth was. :)
@@kentvesser9484 I see a mash up video concept....
Haha sounds like a good time
😂
@GenerationTech and it flows through the whole story arc. When Luminara goes after Poggle and gets captured by the queen, she tells Obi Wan and Anakin to leave her and escape. Then, when the worms take over the ship as Asohka and Baris are transporting poggle, Baris begs Asohka to kill her. The two of them are absolutely jonesing to prove how selfless they are by dying for no good reason. It's pretty comical.
Barrie once said “do you ever question if it’s actually right for us to shut down our emotions in times of war?” Well judging by everything that happened, looks like that was really not a good way of teaching.
Sacrificing your empathy can help you to more easily function and survive... but it will make you more comfortable with thinking and doing terrible things at later times too, and that empathy may become hard to locate again for reactivation.
Yeah, they like to pretend their complete lack of emotion means they mastered all emotion and that's just how a mastered emotions person acts 🤦♂
not to mention that it was the very attachment and empathy that anakin had for ahsoka that led the truth to be revealed when she was framed for a crime she hadn't committed.
I think one episode trilogy that i think addresses this whole anti emotion thing from the jedi very well, is the episodes of the lurmen village in the very first season. Aayla secura and ahsoka end up actually HAVING TO leave anakin behind, for the sake of what's best for the group. And Ahsoka actually addresses the dilema between having to "forsake" people you love for the greater good (as she's having to do to anakin in that moment), in wich the stronger the attachment, the harder it is to choose, and they actually discuss this in a very interesting balanced way.
I find it interesting that they address it in a way that even if you find exaggerated, they make you agree is understandable. When Aayla says to ahsoka that her former master was like a father for her, so she understand what she's going through. And she says that she decided that for the greater good, she (Aayla) had to stay away from her master. She even says "Ahsoka, try not to let your attachment, make it to hard for you to sacrifice 1000 lives for one". The way they address this, as people who are involved in a war, even if you disagree, is very understandable.
However, Luminara man.... she does take it waaaayyy too far. And the code itself and the "anti emotions" thing is very weird and wrong.
Luminara’s behavior during the rescue of hers and Anakin’s apprentices really gets on my nerves. The entire time, she is essentially telling Anakin to give up, more or less saying that they are already dead. And if it wasn’t for Anakin’s determination, they would be. And yet after he does rescue them, Luminara claims that she never gave up on them despite the fact that that was literally what she was doing the entire time.
If I didn’t know better, I’d say Luminara was trying to get the padawans killed.
Technically, she tells Ahsoka that never gave up.
On one hand, I get there's supposed to be a lesson about accepting the death of one you care about, something Anakin couldn't do when his mother died. But that should be AFTER the person is confirmed dead, not when they're still possibly alive.
Luminara in the early 2000’s clone wars cartoon was way better than the one in the clone wars show ngl
I had an idea: I think the true start of Barriss's fall might have been the brain worm episode. Even though the worm was removed from her, consider the sheer terror and PTSD she must have felt from being mind-controlled by an eldritch bug alien. And what would Luminara say to Barriss after that? "You did your best," or something worthless like that. The absolute lack of empathy Luminara would have shown would have cemented how awful the Jedi were. And yes, combine this episode with the previous Super Tank episode when Luminara gave up on saving Barriss.
Nearly died, got brainwashed, then nearly died again? Nah fam, you're just doing your job and the Force works in mysterious ways. Now move on and keep fighting battle droids.
Reminds me a lot of religions in the real world, which I am sure was written to mirror and comment on real-life's religions.
@@escott1981 I would be requesting a transfer to another master that is available and say "well screw you Luminara"
Makes perfect sense to me, Barris is after all a Teenager. You cant go through this kind of thing and NOT be traumetized. Heck Anakin was in huge parts the same problem, if the Jedi simply had him attend therapy after he was freed he probably wouldnt have turned so easeley.
@@merafirewing6591 Wich she because of the rules acually couldnt and as only members of there race can train them, they probably all have the same mindset. Altaugh it certenly would be intresting to see what would happen if Luminara died on Geonosis and maybe Barris had to be traught by Obi Wan, a FAR more compassionte person. Being more often around Ashoka would probably helped a lot too
@@neptuneplaneptune3367 actually in reality, both Anakin and Barriss are separated by an age gap of one year.
I remember reading a book about Revan. He was recently redeemed and returned to the Jedi order. But the Jedi order did not want Revan to teach padawans. Even though he taught many apprentices. The consulers of the order did not like Revan, who mastered the dark and light sides of the force and saw his views and knowledge of the force as a danger of upsetting the dogmatic view of the Jedi. Any innovation is stifled in an environment like the jedi order.
That's why they like to steal Force sensitives as babies to ensure the indoctrination works.
Exactly, reading old Republic stuff make you more questioning how big of a mess the Jedi Order is. No wonder they got purge multiple times
Luminara was _being illogical,_ a Padawin is a vital resource and shouldn't be discarded casually.
She had put time and effort into training her Padawin, from her own viewpoint she should have tried to at least confirm that her investment had been lost before abandoning the rescue effort.
Jeez what was Luminaras own master like?
Likely her master was just like her and a member of her species as this species didn't train as Jedi outside their own species.
@vominomithats why the jedi are fucked. and will always eventually get overtaken by the sith.
She was illogical yes. But not because she had no attachment to her padawan and felt if she died, such was the way of things. She is illogical because, if you feel death is inevitable and should not be prevented nor mourned. Why are you out here fighting? You literally do not care about Anything.
The never be attached attitude always struck me as a do nothing either attitude.
@@danamoore1788 My fellow star wars fan, I do believe you just described apathy.
@vominomi Actually the jedi ways became twisted and corrupted over time. Without the Sith to fight, the jedi lost sight of their original ways and became the jedi they are now. Religious zealots playing the part of soldiers.
It was people like Revan, Dooku, Qui-gon and Anakin who challenged and questioned the views of the jedi. And when the Jedi refused to do anything about the suffering of the galaxy's people, they either distanced themselves, or left entirely. (In Anakin's case, destroy the flawed order).
The order's arrogance led them to willingly ignore their humanity, becoming apathetic and uncaring to those who suffered.
Let me ask you. During the time of the jedi, did they ever once attempt to wipe out the crime syndicates that propegated slavery? Did they stop the Hutt Cartel from extorting people, or crack down on the death stick black market on their home system?
Unfortunately, they ignored the people they had sworn to protect, and became interested with the politics of the galaxy. With their stance being the way it was, is it any surprise why so many jedi during the Clone Wars began to feel the darkness creeping in?
I feel bad for Barris Offee for not having a master who cared for her the way that Anakin did for Ahsoka. I agree, the war broke Barris, what she said about how the Republic was failing and that it was only a matter of time was entirely true.
Honestly I think that the war took a toll on Anakin too, by episode 3 he was tired and worn down by the war, his frustration and distrust of the council, the pressure of being the Chosen One, etc…It’s no wonder he finally snapped and went all dark side.
Honestly I wonder how he would’ve became if there wasn’t a war
@@levievil9220that would only happen if you remove the Palpatine thing
@@painvillegaming4119 true so we basically need to replace palpatine with someone who isn’t a evil sith
@@levievil9220
That would be Qui Gon, who inevitably died, thus deciding the victor of the ‘Dual of the Fates’
@@Jonathan-A.C.Also if Anakin was never burned or dismembered he would become either Broly or Zamasu
Also don't forget that Luminara Undulii is the Jedi who told young Trace and Rafa Martez to essentially just "suck it up" after a speeder crashed into their apartment and killed their parents during a chase with Ziro... Great values on this woman
She saved a lot more killing of the Martez sisters mom and in the middle of a war I don’t think you can just stop what your doing and apologize to who Evers family mem ever dies
@@ryanr2522 Uh, if you cause the death of someone's parents, you better well stop to speak.
Because war happened is not an excuse for a lack of empathy
If only the martez sisters died, we'd be spared an annoying 3 arc episode@@ryanr2522
@@willfanofmanyii3751 Stupid. You go back to speak to them after the job is done. If I was a cop hunting a serial killer and I'm on the tale of said killer, I don't stop to talk to bystanders of any other victims because every death that comes thereafter is on your head for letting them get away without even trying.
I viewed Master Luminara as being very rigid. While not unbendable she, like her padawan had trouble adapting when things don't go to plan. Such as her fight with Ventress. A pure duel Luminara had the upper hand, but when Ventress started using underhanded tactics Luminara practically crumbled.
Im glad you said this. People are calling her trash but she was matching ventress in the force and pushing her back in sabers. It was the use of the environment that got her.
@@Almighty_Jeditrue
The concept of a fair fight is a myth, in fact and in fiction. Ventress used every tactic she felt practicable and practical, that is the nature of combat. Luminara's stubbornness, her clinging to one method above all others is what did her in. She refused to think outside the box that the Order imposed on itself.
That is why the Order failed. It's enemies adapted and changed.
The Order trained to fight the last war.
The enemies of the Order trained to fight the next war.
Your comments about Luminara and Bariss not being fit for war are spot on. That was the insidious genius of Sidious' plan. The Jedi, with the exception of a few, were not fit to lead troops in a war. Not only would this weaken the Republic resources, but it would necessarily put the Jedi in a spot that removed them from the peace process (which is where Luminara and Ki Adi Mundi belonged), while at the same time killing off scores of powerful Jedi Masters and Knights.
Sadly Obi, would have been better choice for Bariss, she needed a hug.
Not to mention having the Jedi fighting alongside clones who were treated like Doritos (eat all you want; we'll make more) - and who were still living conscious beings with a presence in The Force to shatter the Jedi battle by battle.
I'm curious why the plan was to send the padawans off instead of one master and one padawan to handle each part of the mission.
It was also a test to see if the Padawans could work together and complete a mission that dangerous on their own. Anakin didn't want Ahsoka doing it at all because he didn't think she was ready for the responsibility. Only after meeting Barris did he agree to the idea.
lol could you imagine if they switched padawans for that mission? Bariss stressed out trying to keep up with Anakin, meanwhile Ahsoka annoyed with Luminara being so by-the-books
@@Tredlex They sort of did that in an earlier episode. Though while Barriss never worked with Anakin in the Clone Wars (they did work together as Padawans on Ansion pre-war) Luminera worked with Ashoka and it was...amusing.
From a strategic viewpoint Jedi knights almost always acted as battlefield leaders, so the Separatist leadership would immediately question where the other Jedi knight was when they saw only one leading the Clone troops. Padawan learners were just that - “learners” - and with two Jedi knights on the field, their absence would simply be attributed to the exceptional danger of this particular battle.
Because padawans aren't professional enough to hold the fire of hundreds of battle droids. Do you remember how in tales they showed us Ahsoka's training with clones? So it was later than the second Battle of Geonosis. But the diversion for them is the very thing, the probability that they will run into something serious is very small. Well, what can you do if one bug slept badly and reported to his own that incomprehensible girls at the reactor.
One of the best parts of the final season of Clone Wars was Yoda confronting his dark side. He realized the hubris of the Jedi’s dogmatic denial that they too had a dark side, and that only by recognizing one’s own dark side, but refusing to give it power, can one have mastery over it.
Too little, too late. And he still made mistakes afterwards.
Then just like 2 years later he's senile and completely forgot that whole thing, telling Anakin the Jedi equivalent of "lol shit happens just get over it bro" 🤦♂but of course, Dave Foni doesn't care about consistency.
@@OG-ColorfulAbyss. Consistency is kind of hard to have when you're trying to tell any kind of meaningful story with character's whose future is already written. Which is also why the prequel trilogy should be cut loose and refilmed from the ground up. They are not doing current Star Wars content any favors, and there is no value in building up to them anyway, since nobody really likes them.
@@reijishian2593 lmao it's really not hard at all. You just have to have a properly functioning brain and know what you're doing and have seen/read the previous material. Prequels are still way more consistent than all the trash Disney has put out. No in their right mind gives a positive fuck about current Star Wars except for how much it's being ruined.
And yet he decided to do nothing for Jedi Order with that realisation.
The one lesson the Jedi never learned. By having no attachment to anything or anyone, no one had an attachment to them. Something that can be seen in the Clone Wars episode where Cad Bane took several senators hostage. Even a senator like Amidala was mystified when Anakin gives her his lightsaber. This shows how detached the Jedi were, them also being seen as baby stealers. Of course it was so easy to turn the public against the Jedi.
As for Luminara, if she is this detached, can she even claim to care about anything or anyone? The first moment her Padawan is MIA, she treats the situation like her Padawean is KIA. We have seen many droids that care more for their meatbags or even each other.
As for fear leading to the Dark Side, take every reaction of the Jedi to the Sith appearing again and define their reaction as anything else but fear.
You know you’re messed up in the head when literal droids have more emotion than you.
It's a wonder a lot of them didnt become sith lords. they wouldve made great sith
@necrodamus5481 Sith need passion and rage, the Jedi were very good at emotionally neutering themselves if nothing else.
Apathy is death
Can't be a nurturing representative of a natural force connecting all living beings, matter and energy if you're dogmatically disconnected. Avoiding a thing rather than experiencing and practicing a thing leaves you poorly prepared to face said thing
This is why i was ok with luke allowing marriage in the new jedi order in legends. Luke had learned love can be a force for good. Anakin had, in addition to having attachment, a tendency for possessiveness, which partly led to his turn. Luke thought that mutual support and respect would help temper these and for the most part he was right. Also, i think the old jedi order ignored "human" nature to their detriment.
You kind of have a right to possessive when your entire life and everything you have has been stolen from you, twice, and the second time by your supposed saviors, and everyone around you is just going "lol get over it bro"
Which I was I consider him to be the first grey Jedi. He fits all the characteristics of one.
@@OG-ColorfulAbyss.it’s a problem no matter how understandable it is, that’s why a robust personal relationship is desirable to try and mitigate it
Ironically, Barriss is around Anakin's age and he actually knows her and has been on missions with her and Luminara when they were both Padawans (at least in Legends [not sure about Canon]). Ani just got promoted to Knight earlier due to his unique brand of over-the-top heroism and recklessness. It's odd how the show likes to depict her and Ahsoka as being about the same age but I think that it works to contrast them or something. It is nice to see them act like peers despite the age gap, though. There's always something to learn from your youngers. Elders seem to get that arrogance about them and forget that, despite their tendency to be hasty and reckless, youngers have good ideas and smart thoughts too. Of course, this is about flexibility versus being too by the book (a common theme in SW, oddly enough [or maybe not since war is one of the central points of the series]).
That's what I remember. Barriss being around Anakin's age, I was confused when Barriss showed up in CW as young looking. Thinking what did she sacrificed to retain her youthfulness?
This always reminds me of Aurra Sing's Legends backstory. She was a padawan who was kidnapped by pirates and then abandoned by her master.
I'd say Mundi was probably worse, mostly because of his blatant psychopathic following of the code, while hypocritically benefitting from special treatment.
They’re both about equal but in different terms. They both are evil do to the same things. Thee hypocrites who are fanatics to the order and lack empathy.
What made kaidi evil was his refusal to save anyone for attachment purposes. He would watch worlds burn gladly
While for luminara it was the fact that she would murder and kill cold heartedly. Luminara committed war crimes. Enough that it barass
I'd say mace windu was the worse. everytime he's on screen i just roll my eyes. tales of the jedi made my hatred for him worse
@@glamglam8347Mace is a complete nightmare. Have you seen tales of the Jedi?
Hits perfectly as to why the Jedi were full of it
Agree
Mundi was a monster. It is shocking that he was not a Sith.
I think the contrast between Luminara and Barriss really helps our understanding of the jedi. I wonder if we'll see more of Barriss in the future, but I don't know if adding anything to her story would water it down.
Still a shame we never saw her as an inquisitor
@@kingofhearts3185 No, we got too much of Filoni's character assassination of poor Barriss. Having her become an Inqusitor would've been awful.
Depends on how they add to it. There's some really good fanfiction that's been done on Barriss and some of the ways they expanded on her story added some fantastic depth.
I think she makes a really good parallel to Anakin, especially in relation to Ahsoka. Both are fallen Jedi who were close to Ahsoka, and both blame the Jedi Order for it's descent into darkness (and are variously correct, to differing degrees). To that end, I think the best way to take Barriss story is in some kind of redemption arc. Not one she necessarily survives (though I argue that Barriss living would be more interesting as the character can then be used in the future), but one where Ahsoka and Barriss are able to at least reconcile. I think this would be especially poignant as, in the Ahsoka show, it is very likely that Ahsoka will speak to Anakin's force ghost. She would know that it's possible to find the light again, and that it might be possible for Barriss too. It could lead to some very good storytelling.
The biggest problems with takes on Barriss are ones that undercut her role in the Temple Bombing. The only twists on it that I've read which 'work' are: where the bombing plot has gone completely awry and Barriss' plans have fallen apart (I think it's quite obvious that that's what happened), where people she relied on while she planned the bombing chose to change certain things which made the bombing more deadly than planned (which would partially explain why Barriss chose to kill Leta, beyond saving her own skin -- and would also make her easier to empathize with for the audience), and where the bombing is framed directly in relation to far more violent things she did during the Clone Wars which were perceived as "okay" because they were actions taken in war--and especially ones she was ordered to do and had no say in (bombing strategic targets in populated areas, leading battles which she knew ahead of time would lead to devastating losses, and similar--especially on more morally gray fronts like Umbara).
The twists that generally don't work are: where the bombing plot was mainly organized by someone else, where Palpatine played a large role in tempting Barriss to the dark side before the bombing, where Barriss was under some form of mind control, and where Barriss was forced to do it, and where Barriss did not do it.
Far more important than how the bombing happened though, is why Barriss chose to frame Ahsoka. I've seen this taken in a number of ways and honestly most of them work. Because it's not clear AT ALL why she would choose to do this. I think the best takes generally have Barriss framing it, in her mind, as "saving Ahsoka from the war/making her see how corrupt the Jedi have become". I think that's the best choice because she arguably succeeded, and in a sense she might have even saved Ahsoka's life by doing so. But at the same time it's horrifically fucked, which works with Barriss' thought process being corrupted by the dark side. Things that tend not to work so well are where she did it purely out of selfishness/to avoid being found out. I think that must be true to some degree, but it's a pretty boring sole motivation for betraying someone who's supposed to be a close friend, especially if they want to rely on this story in the future/build on Barriss' story.
Also I'd be betraying myself if I didn't mention that them having some amount of romantic feelings for each other is an incredibly interesting way to take this. There's some basis for it as a writer for the Season 2 Barriss episodes apparently pushed for it. It can only up the tragedy of Barriss' betrayal, so I don't see a downside. It would also make the comparison between Barriss and Anakin more poignant as they would both be people who Ahsoka loved (either romantically or like family) who betrayed her. It's not necessary but it could be good!
@@winterfollowsspring8637 Plenty of possibilities
Well you can faithfully devise a story that matches well with her dissolution of the Jedi ideology. For all we know she could became as jaded and isolationist as Jolee, or become a sith. You can really chose any path, but I personally would find it more interesting if she became an isolationist who simply wasn’t sith or Jedi.
Anakin and Ahsoka embrace after Ahsoka almost dies, meanwhile, Luminara "Yo, you good Barriss?"
The real question is how many children have the jedi left in pits because "It is their time"
How many people in general and not just the kids. It doesn’t stop at them.
She is basically the opposite of Ki Adi Mundi, she isn't the psychopath he is, but she displays a key problem with the Jedi. He actively gives no shits about those who depend on him, she is the definition of passivness not raising a finger to rescue her Padawan who can still be saved is a perfect example. Its why Ki adi and Luminara are fundamental the 2 worst Jedi of the era they are the poster children of why the populace mistrust the Jedi order in that time period.
Jedi: We are guardians of peace
Ki Adi Mundi: bring up the flamethrowers
@@GenerationTech*Peacefully*, bring up the flamethrower, please
Psychopathy vs Sociopathy
But this does raise the question which one of them is worse
Oh thats easy, Mundi is far worse than Unduli
I really felt no pity when I saw Luminara’s corpse in Rebels.
Much as Baris turned out to be a bad person, I honestly blame Luminara for that… there’s no way Baris just randomly decided one day to blow up the Jedi temple without years if not decades of mistreatment and neglect… most of which from Luminara herself.
The day things began to change was probably that exact day in the factory.
Just look at real life bombers and mass shooters: people who are lonely, who've usually experienced trauma, abuse and neglect in their formative years, who don't feel like anyone understands them or can help them, and ultimately that the world is evil and a particular group is to blame, and they must be punished.
@@vulcanhumor doesnt always match up with "lonely" or "traumatized", media just likes to drum that up. its more so have been experiencing all that because of propaganda and dogma which does not fit the reality of a situation and life or some group got to them during their formative years and twisted their brains (the beliefs they teach often create behaviors which isolate the person, a self fulfilling prophecy to place blame on others and the world).
The gap between enforced dogma and reality makes them confused when the two ofcourse don't meet, rather than seeing their core values as flawed they strike out at an unfamiliar world they are maladjusted to deal with or even perceive, often targeting its most vulnerable members because it is easy.
wel we dont know why she did it,its easy to blame luminara but maybe a sith kept wispering manipulation in her ear? i mean annakin never realy had a reason to turn on the jedi either and he wouldnt have if it was not for palaptine wispering in his ear.
allot of jedi turned bad because of sith influence.
@@Marcustheseer in this case I feel it was just her very strict teachings, idealism of the jedi and notions of superiority from her race, just... not matching up with what she witnessed in the war. because of the unstable way she reacted though, she just ended up making a key contribution to the sith's plans on multiple levels.
Completely relatable. I felt the exact same way when I watched "Weapons Factory." The problem is that the episode was trying to push a narrative and it was willing to sacrifice whatever characters they wanted in order to push it. In this case, they wanted to strongly hint at Anakin's overattachment and the consequences of it. Instead, Luminara came off as an idiot and Skywalker walked away an emotional hero. Another good example of this in the Clone Wars was in "Jedi Crash" and "Defenders of Peace" where the show was trying to promote some kind of pacifist's critique of the Jedi's involvement of the war. The end result was the critic looking like an apathetic buffoon to the audience and Skywalker, once again, walking away a hero. Those earlier episodes of the Clone Wars just kept trying to push these weird narratives out of left field and it kinda killed the storytelling here and there.
Damn, and I thought those episodes were criticizing pacifism 🤣 You're telling me the whole Mandalore arc was in favor of Satine's blind pacifism?
Wouldn't be surprised if the Jedi pitched those narratives only to facepalm because Anakin was just being well... Anakin.
hahah, at times the writers were as disconnected to the actual world around them as the other characters and jedi were to the Republic. And the irony is, the message they pushed resulted in the destruction of the Order and the Republic.
Maybe the writers were Sith?
What's really sad is that Offee before Filonis clone wars had a pretty good story line. She was an upstanding, albeit reserved, Jedi by the time Order 66 rolled around.
Filoni? I think you mean Lucas’s clone wars.
@@goffokfm6821 no. I mean Filonis. Unless of course...... You wanna pretend that he didn't have a heavy amount of creative control, especially later in the series (you know......... When Barris betrays the Jedi)
@@butcherpete2286 Up until season 7, George Lucas had final say on what did and did not go into that show. In fact a lot of the ideas, were his. The show was a creation of George Lucas, and was partially funded by him. The only ones that seem to be pretending are the ones who thinks George Lucas is not responsible for everything in the show up until season 7.
@@goffokfm6821 im.fully aware that he had final say and creative input. But having those things does *not* equate to coming up with and implementing every single little piece of story. Largely the story was conceptualized and based on Filonis ideas, at George's guidance.
All of this to say that it's called "Filonis clone wars" because there is also "Tartakovskys clone wars" the 2003 micro series, which George also had a small hand in. Don't get caught up with me over this because I used the main directors name to differentiate between to series with similar names.
@@butcherpete2286 That's great an all, but you’re still trying to shift blame. It was Lucas’s creation. At any point if there was some idea or concept he did not like, he could have changed it, and he did on more than one occasion. He didn’t have a “small hand” in the 2008 series. He had a big hand, and was very involved. The blame lies With him. No one else. Not Filoni or anyone else. George Lucas.
Anakin, you did great today. You saved two children's lives. Luminara, you could learn from him.
If I were a Jedi, Mace Windu would hate me so much.
If I were a Jedi I'd hate Mace Windu too. Dude is an arrogant prick.
If I were a Jedi I would ask him why his bald is always shiny but the rest of him is dark- *gets clapped by the order*
One of the ironies of the original trilogy is that by trying to synthesize eastern and western spirituality via the Force and Jedi teachings, but setting that synthesis in a traditional western hero’s journey, Lucas inadvertently sets up a refutation of aspects of eastern philosophy. Specifically, the Jedi ideal of detachment, acceptance of death, and avoidance of passion mirrors the Buddhist rejection of worldly existence and desire as the source of suffering.
Jedi detachment is rejected by Luke twice in the course of the original trilogy, and each of those rejections results in a measure of success. While Luke doesn’t defeat Vader at cloud city, his actions do contribute to his friends escape in the long run. Finally, Luke’s efforts to redeem Vader does succeed at the end of the trilogy. These rejections of Jedi detachment show the heroic and redeeming quality of love, which is a core element of the Western tradition. This then becomes an implicit argument for the superiority of Western morality and spirituality, despite Lucas’ efforts at forging a synthesis.
Well done and very thought provoking
It doesn't refute it. Luke and Vader both let go at the same time. Lucas specifically said it was selfless love, not attachment that saved Vader. I know it seems contradictory, but whatever.
@@Hello-bi1pm It sounds contradictory because it IS contradictory. Lucas can say whatever he wants but at the end of the day he made the decision to make Luke and Vader father and son. If he wanted to make a point about "selfless love" without "attachment" then he could have made Vader completely unrelated to Luke and have the same string of events happen and that MIGHT have proven his point but Luke's very dramatic response to the revelation that Vader was his father says otherwise. Luke is very obviously and deeply affected by Vader being his father. He's affected so much by it that his EXACT words to Palpatine in the moment where he becomes a Jedi knight are "You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."
He draws a direct line from Anakin to himself in order to refute the dark side of the force. I know what Lucas WANTED to say through that scene but regardless of his desires what is presented is a story of a son's love redeeming a father's sin. Its something that would not have landed nearly as well with audiences if the screenplay bent over backwards to try to tell everyone that Vader being his father had nothing to do with his actions.
Yes. And it seems that majority of people here are too immersed in their Western world view to even realize that it's not the only one.
@@w4rd069 another part of the script which highlights this is the scene of Obi Wan appearing to Luke on Degobah:
Luke - “There’s still good in him.”
Obi Wan - “He’s more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.”
Luke - “I can’t kill my own father.”
Obi Wan - “Then the Emperor has already won.”
This exchange not only emphasizes the significance of Luke’s attachment to Vader, it also shows a deep philosophical and moral weakness in the Jedi position. Obi Wan is exactly wrong. Luke’s attachment to Vader was not a victory for the Emperor, rather it was the cause of his defeat. Rather than having “already won” the Emperor had in fact already lost.
I never really put thought to it, but I always kinda hated Luminara, for all of the reasons you pointed out. Even as someone who prefers calm logical thinking in bad situations, she's so far removed from emotion that she can't even use it to inform her of possible solutions. There is value in controlling our emotions, working in the ER and ambulance, it's extremely valuable to stay calm in an emergency and be able to think things through. But even in those scenarios, I use my emotions and gut instincts to tell me if something isn't right, and then control those feelings to guide me without controlling me and loosing the ability to stay calm. Doing this helps me to catch problems that may not have been completely recognizable by logical observation alone, and then motivates me to take action, without forgetting to use strategy. On the other hand, Luminara comes up with a great initial plan, then when it doesn't go as planned, her strategy completely fell apart and she accepted the loss of her padawan without even trying to confirm if they were actually dead. I honestly think she's a horrible person, and she absolutely is an example of some of the many problems in the Jedi order of that period. While I am someone who loves the Jedi, they had serious problems that developed from blindly accepting extreme views of philosophy.
I think that nuance, as you described it, would have gone a long way in the series, but the writers and producers likely strayed toward the flawed perspective of underestimating the intelligence of some of the audience and viewers, or were just lazy and didn't want to be bothered to think too much themselves.
Luminara had flaws but she definitely wasn’t the worst Jedi. She was calm and kind. She had praise for ahsoka and even anakin and even had a little sense of humor. She even admitted she was wrong about underestimating ventress and admitted ahsoka was right and said her master should be proud. She always had her focus where it needed to be and was a good one time teacher for ahsoka like aayla was. And at least she did help get ahsoka and barriss out of the rocks and showed genuine relief and happiness when barriss was okay
She was calm not kind. She was never kind. Just polite. If she was kind and actually understanding her actions would have never been one of the main reasons for her padawan breaking.
@@kevind3974 so I’m assuming you don’t think yoda and obi wan were kind either then. If I’m right then fair enough
Probably the bigger question with her was whether she was really someone who should have been elevated to master. Of course at the time she became master there was really no way to test her mettle if a galaxy spanning war broke out and whether she was really up to the task of being a leader in a rapidly evolving environment or whether she would have been more useful tucked away teaching younglings on Coruscant or running a Jedi hospital.
@@kentvesser9484 definitely worse Jedi masters out there. Pong krell, quinlon voss, etc
The issue is the order more then Luminara
It really says something that Anakin is a better master than her.
Anakin is a more compassionate master
To many people that will feel like he is a superior master or person generally speaking because we want people, not robotic anti emotional code regurgitation meatbag machines.
I'd say his success with Ahsoka is just as dependent on her own original natural talent for the force and combat as it is his unorthodox methods.
Obviously he is proven (in appearance) to be among the most superior masters since his Padawan is one of the only ones to survive on her own merit (as opposed to Kestis who survived on his Masters suicide and Kanan who survived because Hunter let him go) but I wonder how far she'd have gone under another.
Same questions get asked a lot about Anakin; if he'd had another master than Kenobi whether he'd be better or worse off.
Love this! Yes, Luminora and Anakin had no business sending Ahsoka and Baris sending them down in the tunnels. It was a stupid and reckless element of the plan. Also, the clone attack was supposed to be a feint, but it was carried out as a reckless and committed frontal assault. Lots like to blame this blunt force tactic on Anakin, but it was typical Jedi poor generalship. Anakin was aggressive, but he often found innovative solutions beyond frontal assault that defeated his enemy. Luminora and other Jedi Generals may have valued the clones as good Soldiers and precious life forms, but that didn’t stop them from treating them like battlefield pawns.
She really should have gone through a reality check and see her face of comfronting the fact that she should have been more aware of how she behaved. I wonder what went through her head as the clones captured her.
I completely agree. Luminara is also most likely the one who was so callous to the Martez sisters after their parents died.
Luminara: Worst Prequel era Jedi
Jorus: Hold my Outbound Flight.
At least his clone was impressive lol
Dumb
But impressive
One thing to point out as well, in regards to how uminara reacted to her padawan potentially dying, is that she's actually neglecting her responsibilities. As a master she is responsible for the safety of her padawan. Yes, it's a dangerous world out there and they are right in the middle of it, but that only reinforces the need for a more protective attitude. People who so casually abandon someone they are responsible for cannot b e trusted with anything.
For someone like Luminara or Mundi, they might try to use the excuse that it was the "Will of the Force" or some cop out like that.
A big problem is also that Luminara’s style didn’t allow for Baris to develop the ability to think outside of her plan when things go wrong. As you said, it’s a lack of the ability to think critically.
Don't forget how cold hearted and disconnected she acted in season 7.
While we didn't see it directly, we were given a description of it by one of the characters on Ashoka's arc in Season 7.
Alan in every video: “I hate Luminara”
Alan after last vid: “you know what” *scribbles furiously
About the tunnel mission, I wholeheartedly believe Luminara was so keen for her padawan to lead the tunnel with Ahsoka because she was attempting to teach her a lesson. She had Bariss memorise the intricate system using her outdated methods and lead the mission with Ahsoka as if to say "see look! my old meticulous way worked!", and when it inevitably fails she attempts to teach Anakin a lesson of "hey if I fail and other people suffer, I'm ready to let go and make the sacrifice". The whole time, she was trying to say that she's right about something. Even in the confrontation with Ventress, when she realized that she's in over her head, her apologies to Ahsoka was not genuine. She speaks in the same manner of "see look I apologized! Im the good guy and the bigger person!". Every single time she's on screen, she is yearning to be right about something.
I'll give them credit, if that was a flaw they intended to have the character show, that of vain pride and of always trying to steal the spotlight, or of maintaining an air of being right no matter the cost, they did a bang up job with Luminara.
One more thing, in the Ahsoka's Walkabout arc in S7 E5-8, Trace and Rafa describe the Jedi they spoke with as beautiful with Green skin, but left them with only words after their parents had died as collateral damage in the aftermath of a Jedi chase. I believe the chase was after Bane held the Senate hostage to free Ziro, based on context i loosely remember from the conversation.
3:32 they sound a bit like elves since they tend to think they're better than any other race
Yeah I absolutely hate her, I like to imagine she goes to her not anymore Padawan prison cell to argue with her about what she has done and her Padawan just yells at her master "Anakin Skywalker would have been a better Master than you are!" I like to think she was jealous at ahsoka.
Do not hate her. In this situation it is best to accept that her actions were all for the greater good, do you not understand this?
😏
Actually accurate, considering that before the temple bombing Baris had a crush on Anakin
@@ale-xsantos1078Really? Where is this from? A comic, a novel?
@@lsthero5863
I may be mistaken but I think it was in the Legends novel Approaching Storm, a little before the start of the Clone Wars
Luminara was a more kind master then because the war hadnt yet made her double down on the Jedi Code and Barris felt drawn towards Anakin thinking he was special but because of her own Jedi upbringing she didnt understand what she was feeling and why
It could have been she wanted to be Anakin's padawan, but because of the rule of the mirialans, she had to train under Luminara.
100% agree on all of this - great video as always! I'm also a little surprised that Jedi didn't end up using shields like the Gungan energy shields for defense, considering that so many of their enemies used blasters...
Correct me if I'm wrong,but I think it was stated that those kind of shields were radioactiv or sth like that
@@alberteinstein453 possibly, but I feel like the concept holds (as Mandalorians also use shields); having something to protect you from blasters would just make sense, especially high volume of fire
@@Centaur255 true,but the mandalorians used small shields mounted on the wrist and they're beskar armour would be more efficient in protecting the body from radiation than the more common plastoid(that's what I think)
The Jedi code is the crystallisation of how detached the Order was from the rest of galaxy, the first line says it all ; There is no emotion, there is peace. I'm sorry but as a sentient being you are going to feel a maelstrom of emotions at any given time and rejecting them leaves you vulnerable to the more extreme ones, and thus the Dark side.
The rest of the code is basically the Jedi trying to ignore fundamental parts of life, even death itself, as if they could control everything about themselves perfectly.
I always preferred the alternative version that went with the more inclusive language ; Emotion, yet Peace. This tells Jedi that even the worst will pass if you are mindful and not to reject anything but understand yourself fully so you are never shaken and to be sure of what you feel is right.
The Jedi had stagnated and they perished as all stagnation does, so tragic.
I can agree that The Jedi had took their creed too literally, but this is what it was meant to be.
Jedi Code:
- "There is no emotion, there is peace."
This line emphasizes the Jedi's commitment to maintain inner peace and avoid being swayed by intense emotions. They strive to be calm and level-headed, as emotional turmoil can cloud judgment.
- "There is no ignorance, there is knowledge."
The Jedi value knowledge and seek to expand their understanding of the Force and the galaxy. They believe that wisdom and education are key to making informed decisions and solving problems.
- "There is no passion, there is serenity."
Jedi are taught to control their passions and desires, recognizing that attachment can lead to suffering and cloud rational thinking. Serenity allows them to maintain a clear mind and act selflessly.
- "There is no chaos, there is harmony."
This line encourages Jedi to bring order and balance to the galaxy. They strive to resolve conflicts peacefully and promote harmony among all living beings. Jedi value cooperation and Unity.
- "There is no death, there is the Force."
The Jedi understand that death is a part of life, and that through the Force, consciousness lives on. They believe in the interconnectedness of all living things and the eternal nature of the Force.
@@DLR1997 What the code is MEANT to say is very clear. What it, however, LITERALLY says is a case study in what this video is trying to get across.
"There is no this, but there is that" is language that indicates denial. You are saying aloud that "this" should not exist and must instead be replaced wholly with "that." This is the entire point of the video; the jedi are hidebound to the literal meaning of their code and believe that very natural, human things like emotion, desire, and passion are things which must be denied and replaced in order to be a good jedi.
This is not only impossible to do, it is foolish to attempt. Denial of those facets of humanity are, in essence, an attempt to put oneself above other people by saying "we do not experience these things as you do because we have found true wisdom in denying their existence." Through pretending to have no ego the Jedi exposed themselves to be, as the video said, "out of touch" with the galaxy they were meant to serve. They set themselves apart, insisting that only their judgement was truly clear and refuse to consider any other counsel besides their own. It was an outlook that ultimately led to the downfall of all they claimed to defend.
As the commenter before you stated, this all could have been avoided or at least ameliorated by the Jedi adhering to the truncated version of their code:
"Emotion, yet peace"
"Ignorance, yet knowledge"
"Passion, yet serenity"
"Chaos, yet harmony
"Death, yet the Force"
That repetition of "yet" is important. It is a wording that allows and understands the existence of the first concept but acknowledges that it must be superseded and overcome by the concept that comes after it in the mantra. In this version the speaker is not denying the existence of things like emotion, ignorance, and passion (and also therefore not shaming the speaker for experiencing them as all people do) but admitting they exist and that through the teachings of the Jedi they can be overcome...or at least if they cannot be wholly overcome then the energy that comes with them out of the wellspring of each individual life can be redirected and controlled for the greater good of all through discipline, meditation, and other forms of spiritual, mental, and physical diligence.
If the Jedi of the Clone Wars were more self aware and introspective then they would understand that although their connection to the force set them apart from most people in the galaxy, it would never separate them fully. They are still people; still fallible and prone to experience all the negativity surrounding the human condition and the attempt to purge themselves of that condition through denial was an act of hubris they foolishly told themselves was humility.
@@w4rd069
Nah. What the first guy said makes more sense. The Jedi code is alright as it is, and your version feels like a bastardization.
It's just as easy to get overly technical about the ten commandments. "Thou shall not lie"?
But, but... what if I like HAVE to lie in order to prevent yada yada yada.
Everything can be broken down if you really want. But the sentiment of the Jedi code is what matters, and is a really valid one.
A jedi is MEANT to be more than a normal person, to bear soul-crushing responsibility and sacrifice everything to serve ideas bigger than themselves. It's not meant to be easy. It's meant to be an impossible task that is only achievable "in theory". Pretty standard stuff for most IRL religions actually.
@@The_Moe_Szyslak_Exp_feat_Homer Its funny that you say "the Jedi code is alright as it is" and that what I've written is a "bastardization" because BOTH of the versions of the code written in this comment chain are canon.
The mistake is thinking that they both say the same exact thing, just worded differently. They don't.
Its also interesting that you bring up real world religion because the Jedi philosophy is very blatantly an approximation of Buddhism and other eastern forms of religious philosophy. This is where the Jedi code gets its proscription against "attachment" because it mirrors Buddhism in the idea that "attachments are illusions" that cause suffering and prevent people from reaching enlightenment.
Its honestly so, so interesting that you bring up "thou shall not lie" specifically because Buddhism has something interesting to say about it. The Buddhist term "Upaya" is a concept that implies one be able to use "expedient means" to achieve a higher purpose. Basically, just because you can't achieve something perfectly doesn't mean its not worth achieving by any means that you can.
Its a concept that is actually covered by the Buddha himself through parable in the Lotus Sutra. He tells a story about the house of a rich man that catches fire. The man is aware of the fire but his children are not and despite all of his warnings his children are not enthusiastic about heeding his warnings about the fire. So what does the man do? Does he throw his hands up and say "well, I tried via telling the truth and that wasn't good enough so I guess I just have to accept my children burning to death?" No. Instead he "lies" to his kids about some toys they want being outside the house so they will leave and escape the fire. The parable ends with the Buddha and his students agreeing that the father committed no real falsehood because the entire object of speaking to his children in this way was to save their lives.
If the Buddha is able to understand that human nature often makes it impossible for them to "bear the soul crushing responsibility" of becoming enlightened and "sacrifice everything to serve ideas bigger than themselves" as you put it...If the Buddha whom the Jedi's own philosophy is based on can understand that human nature requires reflections, workarounds, exceptions and nuances then why can't the Jedi?
@@w4rd069 You really understand the nuances of the Jedi Code and I thank you for expanding on my short few paragraphs. In the end, the Force is much more complicated than the Jedi ever really wanted to admit and I am glad that the writers of Star Wars stories also realised this.
Oh hey, didn't know Ki-Adi-Mundi had competition for the "Worst Jedi Master Ever" award
Luminara was a cold hearted woman according to the Martez sisters after all.
I never blamed her for that. She wasn’t raised to process grief in a healthy way so she wouldn’t know anything better
Jedi manage to be both ineffecient in a battlefield and extremely effective at leading their companies into a swift death
The Battle of Geonosis is better titled the Brawl of Geonosis, given the plan was just to have everyone just run and charge everyone else.
Stands to reason the Jedi were many things, but competent Generals? They certainly were not.
Of course in the scheme of the saga, that was likely one of the aspects that Sidious was counting on.
Wasn’t there a Togruta Master (Not Shaak-Ti, another one) that literally tried to murder her padawan because she had a vision of them going rogue?
You seriously think that happened only ONCE? That's literally a walking trope. So much so that Jedi pretty much universally react to any vision as if it's coming true and EVERY time they act to avert it, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
And they ALWAYS try to act to prevent it. I have yet to see a Jedi EVER take a 'wait and see' approach to these visions and continue to live in the present while being mindful of the future. They're always desperately trying to see ahead to avoid what's coming and never realize they're barreling toward the very future they saw.
It's old and tiresome. And yet whenever the Jedi do take a 'wait and see' approach, it always turns out the younger more action oriented Jedi was right and that they need to do something instead of waiting for some evil to finally reveal itself. It worked with Revan but now THAT trope has exhausted itself with market saturation.
Can we for once get this mystical 'patience' that gets preached to actually pay off and allow a more casual nudge to avert catastrophe?
@@graveyardshift6691 That would indeed be nice. Also maybe we feel like our students are straying, we could just guide them back on the right path rather than…you know…killing them?
Let’s leave killing our students to the Sith yeah?
Graveyard Shift. A bit too much Jedi haterade flowing in this comment section.
"I have yet to see a Jedi EVER take a 'wait and see' approach to these visions - They're always desperately trying to see ahead to avoid what's coming and never realize they're barreling toward the very future they saw." Not really, in ESB Yoda and Obi-Wan told Luke to show restraint in response to his visions, only for him to barrel ahead into catastrophe; in TPM the council didn't overreact to Anakin despite their concerns about his future; and in ROTS Yoda sat and listened to Anakin talk about his visions and he didn't freak out, he just calmly talked to him and tried to tell him how to deal with his feelings, it was Anakin's own action-oriented approaches that led to his eventual downfall.
Cases like the Togruta master trying to kill her apprentice aren't very common for the Jedi and are violations of their teachings, the Jedi overall are a good organization. People talk smack about them because they think it's cool to hate on Jedi nowadays.
@@alaskamark4562 All very good points, I think being force sensitive automatically brought about a certain level of instability that the Jedi constantly attempted to wrangle through order and meditation.
I mean think about it, if you were in tune with the chaotic and surging energies of the universe, it would be easy to get washed away in the tide.
@@alaskamark4562 Counterpoint. The Jedi order has been destroyed several times over. Each time was the result of the Jedi Masters of the Jedi Council sitting on their hands for far too long waiting for the evil they've been detecting at the fringes of their consciousness.
Then they surprise pikachu face when the threat pops up from literally underneath them and wipes them out.
It has been destroyed three times in the Old Republic, once more during Revenge of the Sith, and even Luke was forced to disband once and go into hiding.
The only way it's survived is that younger Jedi have literally gone 'fuck the wisdom of the elders, let GET SHIT DONE.'. Revan, Meetra Surik, the Army of Light, we know how it went down in RotS and even then we're still getting stories of Jedi survivors sticking to the empire here and there.
Luke wasn't even idle in hiding. He eventually found a way back through direct action as opposed to just sitting still and doing nothing.
They tell us it's supposed to be exceptionally rare that a Master freaks out and kills their own student but given all the stories we've been given, it's depressingly common.
I am simply frustrated that they tell us one thing but considering how many times they trot out that story, that it's more common than we think and it makes the Jedi look exceptionally incompetent. Thereby the Sith look cooler by comparison.
I hate how the Disney lore painted the Jedi in the worst light. They nearly made their eradication justified.
One thing I’d like to suggest is a video analyzing the Legends version of Luke’s New Jedi Order and whether it did a good job of correcting the failings of its predecessor. A video by The Lore Master argued that it did, and I’m curious as to what your take would be.
Man, Luminara really just got *Falling Pipe Sound Effect*ed... XD
What happens when you run out of ammunition?
There is a reason why soldiers also have combat knives.
Jedi and Sith are 2 sides of a double headed coin. They are the same, but different… but the same. They keep peace through fear.
That arena scene drove me crazy. How the Jedi did not form ranks.... no formation. just went berserker mode, jumped into the air and fought as individuals, not soldiers
I knew that was Master Luminara just by the thumbnail
All I know is:
1) Jedi Traitor
2) I need access to the temple’s signal beacon
You know that Alan's touching on a VERY serious subject when a video has no background music.
Such a mystery why Barris turned on the Order. She probably picked Ahsoka as her patsy for the Jedi Temple bombing because of jealousy for not having as caring master as Anakin.
Depending on how deep you delve into Star Wars (EU novels, books and all that) it actually makes alot of sense. Unfortunately the Clone Wars series seems to selectively gloss over that ever subtle but relatable element wherein a character is slowly steered toward a particular state of being that eventually results in a seemingly unexpected change in their path in life, coming as a shock to everyone else, simply because the other characters either ignored or excused or explained away what they saw in that one character.
@@tr4480 The same thing happened to Anakin himself when he started having the visions of death about his mother and then his wife.
I like how you were able to precisely show what the Jedi Order had become. If they had more of an understanding of their emotions they could have prevented the clone wars from happening.
Bariss reminds me of the kid with super strict parents who's the perfect child when they're young, but becomes rebellious and resentful later.
Naughty thumbnail, you have, Alan.
Great video, I think pointed the biggest difference between the Jedi and their predecessors the Je'daii regarding control of your emotions rather than emotions are bad.
9:50 So basically, the episode was SUPPOSED to show us Anikin's flaws of being too attached to Ahsoka, but what it actually did, was show the Jedi order was fucked, all the way to it's core.
At the risk of oversimplification, and I have alluded to this elsewhere, the Jedi Order trained and and educated on the premise that they were going to fight another war just like they fought the last war.
The Order reflected on their victory but no further beyond it.
They maintained an approach with the Force that worked for them in the past, and there is precedent for this, and one cannot blame the Order for maintaining that approach. After all it worked then, why not have it work next time.
Trouble was the Sith reflected on their defeat, and made the sensible changes to their style of waging war.
Put it this way, the Jedi Order failed to consider this sound military maxim: Do not base your plan of actions on what the enemy WOULD do. Base your actions on what your enemy COULD do.
When you realise Luminara was the one Kanan wanted Ezra to be trained by 💀
And in CW season 7 the Martez sisters backsory let's you think that the "green skinned Jedi with striking blue eyes" who just told them to trust in the force when their parents died could be Luminara. It would fit very well.
14:20 The Sith v Jedi on how to deal with the darkside is rooted in standard psychology for a long time. There are two generalized ways of getting over phobia and/or trauma, and those two are abstinence and over-saturation. The former just keeps you "away" from the temptation, the other forces you to immerse yourself in what ever is troubling you, at all times if possible.
(See any correlations yet?) Trying to find a middle ground, or third path, is admirable, as both of the fore mentioned "cures" have their drawbacks. That's why we're here.
Were the Jedi like Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, and Mace, truly great Jedi or were they just the best of a order that had grown lax from generations of peace? how would they compare to older generations who had to deal with the constant threat of Sith and other dark side threats on the reg?
Well considering windu bodied the strongest with ever.…
I interpret Luminara being unwilling to act when Ahsoka and Barress are in danger beneath the facility as a consequence of fatalism, a facet of many religions and philosophies, not personal arrogance.
I always really liked luminara. She embodied what the jedi order had become and while it was bad for them and leading to the death of their order, I can at the same time greatly respect the ideology. Also I feel Luminara showed lots of emotion when she thought her padawan was dead. All jedi feel emotion, they just train themselves not to allow it to hold any power over them. It always seemed to me that she knelt down to compose herself and focus on the force to begin her well trained process of accepting then quickly moving past deep emotions such as the loss of a padawan. Anakin on the other hand dwelt on them to a near dangerous level. Great video though.
You got a like from me for saying you were happy to do this video finally. It sounded like a weight lifted off your chest a little bit there. I respect that.
Agreed. The Jedi became an arrogant powerful group deeply affected by group thinking. That is why I so much appreciate characters like Qui-Gon Jinn, who managed to remain true to The Force and refusing to take part of the biased Jedi counsel. It is a pity that Dooku did not manage to control his frustrations in a more productive manner. Yoda's arrogance greatly contributed to the Jedi's demise. He only truly evolved after years in exile.
EXACTLY!!!! So good to see others who see this about the Jedi and how they should have handled things. Great video!
Thank you for covering her. I've always been curious about Luminara and now I have a better understanding of her. Even as a kid, I didn't like how... cynical she was. But now I see it's not because she chooses to, but because she's programmed that way.
did you know that there is a certain distance in which you are guaranteed to be killed by a person with a knife before you can draw your gun? now imagine that distance is infinite because not only can a jedi kill you or knock you out from far away, but any bullets you shoot at them are useless. You can't put modern day standards of weaponry on a superpowered warrior with a laser sword. lol
After watching your video about Ahsoka I knew this video was coming.. but this soon? I'm impressed 👏 😅
For a moment there I thought you were going to say Rey Palpatine but thank God we dodged that bullet.
You dare consider the sacred art of melee toxic!!
You will die,heretic(revs up chainsword)
😂
"Mana, another supernatural energy that permeates the galaxy and also gives individuals super-powers, like being really good at rugby" 🤣
Luminara was also shit talking to Ventress, pissing her off and that nearly got her killed despite Ahsoka trying to warn her beforehand.
But no. She got overconfident, thinking she could handle Ventress and look what happened. Luminara didn't listen. Glad you pointed it out in the video.
While I do not fully hate Luminara like I do with Mundi and Windu, I think Luminara does act like her shit don't stink and is a know-it-all kind of person.
Which really felt bizarre because I'd always thought there was a bare minimum entry level prereq to get on the Council or become a Master in regards to power and expertise at Jedi-ness so how could Ventress back in season 1 overcome one?
Idk
Apparently Luminara was just a shit skill level Jedi Master
No wonder Anakin was upset he was better than most of the Council.
@@ClericOfPholtus Ventress was more skilled than most Jedi, simple as that. Luminara was simply too arrogant to recognize that a "mere assassin" who's not even a true Sith could be better than her.
@@RedXlV and yet on other occasions a shitty cyborg or an apprentice can take her on no problem.
Inconsistent.
If Luminara is actually that shit then it makes no sense for her to be on the council much less considered 'so powerful'
@@ClericOfPholtus Luminara was never a council member
@@rodgill9376 for real? Good then if so.
Don't know why I thought that, just assumed I guess.
They needed better title differentiation for the Jedi
Teachers vs Heads of the Order both being called Master gets confusing
You maake the best star wars videos. You dont just regurgitate whats in aa book or movie you actually put thought and personal opinion in it. Thank you
As in religion, there are different interpretations of the force. I will always have reverence for Luke Skywalker new jedi order in the EU. Personal attachments depending on the individual are to be valued and encouraged. Love has a huge part to play in the light side of the force.
And that is why Luke Skywalker-in the original mostly great EU canon, became one of the greatest Jedi Masters-if not THE greatest Jedi Master. He never suppressed anyone, he made sure they understood their feelings. He didn't always get it right, but I think it's safe to say that whenever an apprentice of his turned to the dark side, NONE OF IT was his fault. In fact, if they listened to him more, Particularly Kyp Durron (though he redeemed himself afterwards) and Jacen Solo, they never would have turned. Luke was awesome back in the old days.
Disney didnt want a strong male supporting character. That's why Luke had to go the way he went, fading away like a fart in the wind.
The issue with having the masters go behind the lines is that the Geonosians could see the Jedi missing and wonder where they are. The best idea would have been to send one Master and one Padawan inside and the other stay behind. And honestly I’m not sure if the whole idea of that episode was to show Anakin’s flaws. I think it might have been to show the good and right place Anakin’s flaws came from while showing the downside of the Jedi way that fouled him up
Don't forget that its implied that when the Martess sister's parents died, Luminara rescued them from the ruble of their home and coldly said "Your parents are dead, but rejoice for they have become one with the force." And started those two on a path of despising the Order, the Republic, the war, and deciding to become criminals to survive in the corrupt world of the Empire.
I mean that one quote does exist for a reason
“Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.”
I wonder what happened to Luminara after The approaching Storm. Because if she acted the way she does in this novel, she would have already jumped into the canyon to dig for Barriss while Anakin was still trying to see through the dust. Maybe she was kidnapped and exchanged during the first battle for Geonosis... 🤔
Just shows that the books are irrelevant in Disney’s eyes and only what's on screen is canon, even though they contradict themselves constantly.
@@Lobsterwithinternet The Clone Wars episodes with Luminara (except for the possible references in season 7) were made years before Disney took over, and the Approaching Storm is a legends book. Disney definitely deserves its fair share of flak but they are irrelevant here since any contradictions between the book and the Clone Wars series already existed by the time they bought the franchise.
@@baconacorn473 Which means it's a Filoni problem.
Kind of like how he changed up the clones and how he inserts Ahsoka into everything.
@@Lobsterwithinternet Filoni rewriting stuff simply because could started with the very beginning of The Clone Wars, when Ahsoka was brought in Anakin's padawan. It had previously been established that padawans are *always* chosen by their master, but Ahsoka is assigned to Anakin by the Council without notice.
First of all, The Clone Wars is part of Legends. Any inconcistency would have eventually been ironed out and explained if Disney hadn't bought Star Wars
The way I see The Approaching Storm in this context, is that Luminara wasn't as unaffected by things as she actually lets on. My theory is that the war made her descend into a state of depression and eventually cold stoicism. She probably adopted this mentality as a spiritual safety mechanism and an easy answer to the horrors of the war.
All the more reason why Barriss would hate what the Jedi had become. In that novel, all she did was go on a wholesome adventure, learn about the local cultures and single handedly prevented a planetary civil war. That was what the Jedi life was MEANT to be like. The war turned Luminara into a different (worse) person, and robbed Barriss of her sense of purpose.
To me, I think the different portrayls of the two characters from the novels and the late stage of the Clone Wars actually works out perfectly. Makes the world feel richer for seing characters actually change in mindset as time passes, instead of being completely or mostly static.
Her original death where she got absolutely erased by a tank on Kashyyyk was too good for her.
All of these failings of the order listed here are adding greatly to Eno Cordovas story in Jedi fallen Order and his continued backstory in Jedi Survivor, it also shows exactly what drove Dagan Gera to his fall, like many others before him. It isn't emotions and attachements that make you fall, it is being incapable of controlling and guiding these emotions. Attachments don't make you fall, it is negative emotions running unchallenged, and this used to be different waaay back when, but as we know the code changed a few times and the result was arrogant, blind and disconnected people sitting in their ivory towers, uncaring for the people and the world they lived in. Ironically this also made them blind to the living force and cosmic force as a whole, they only interacted with teh localised force, which is what made jedi surviving years after order 66 a lot stronger, case and point Cal Kestis, who grew strong enough to be on par with a jedi from the golden age of the jedi order.
In war, if you are not anybody who tried to prevent it from coming, you are either a bad person for participating, the one who caused it, the one who revels in the suffering of others, or are simply ones caring out orders of any side.
I liked Luminara; she was calm and Kind. However, Lumainara shouldn't have said what she said to the Martinez sisters; Luminara should have been more considerate than that. Luminara wasn't the smartest Jedi. She and Anakin should not have sent their padawans down in the tunnels without supervision (assuming Luminara assumed Barris would take charge). Luminara owned up that she should not have underestimated Ventress, and Luminara was talking too much. However, Luminara wasn't a good master because she gave up on her padawan TWICE back to back. Luminara should have been paying more attention to Barris because maybe it started as minor and got big to the point where Barris blew up the temple and framed it on Ahsoka, and yet there supposed to be friends!
"Controlling your emotions while being in love; That's what they should teach you. Love itself can save you, not condemn you." Joli Bindo referring to the Jedi's teachings - KOTOR.
Luminara was a great Jedi, she separated her feelings and followed the code to its word. She became apathetic to the actual suffering of the galaxy. “Apathy is death.” She was willing to live and let live. If the order had never join the war she would have been fine with the death caused by the CIS.
Of course she would have. She’s a walking hypocrite. She would gladly watch people die and say it’s for the order. When in reality they’re supposed to protect. The falls to the same shit that makes kaidi evil. A complete lack of empathy and a fanatical belief in the more hardcore tenets of the code
Apathy is death
And then Anakin or someone similar and high ranked would've pulled a Revan and led a splinter group of Jedi to aid the Republic in their war
Love seeing Kotor 2 koriban arc being quoted, kreia explained that apathy killed the Jedi order, in that era. Sadly they didn't learn from their mistakes hundreds of years later
I'll think more about Kanan. I agree *wholeheartedly* about the Golden Age and its lull being toxic to the Jedi Order, to the level of the madness of the Kingpriest in the Dragonlance setting. It's only natural... that was Darth Bane's plan for the Rule of Two all along. The Sith sold enough rope for the Jedi and the Republic to hang themselves and... it worked.
I was truly hoping the title to be about Luminara and I'm glad it is. She's insufferable
I would not be the least bit surprised if Luminara's absolute lack of empathy is one of the things that pushed Barris Offee to the Dark Side.