it’s a complex topic. One I understand the process of understanding other individuals processes and different viewpoints from other peoples perspectives. I did not have this mentality in the past I had to go through traumatic growth and when I mean, traumatic growth, I mean I legitimately had to go through trauma to be able to grow to the point where I’m at now, it honestly requires men amounts of studying of the three different types of empathy. Then you have to understand social cues. Then you have to understand sociology psychology, even some philosophy, understanding the human condition and understanding the rest of those things from fundamental principles of first principal thinking, breaking it down then you have to understand why people react the way they do understand the way they’re bringing ticks and the way they think the way people perceive the world, you have to spend an amends amount of dragging long periods of time to be able to comprehend all different aspects of other peoples viewpoint, beliefs, behaviors, analyzing their faces and facial structures learning them. I have extremely high, cognitive empathy, despite the fact that I used to have extreme deficits in this area I used to have really poor affective empathy, but I had very good compassionate empathy. Now, when it comes to understanding all these things, I finally have reached levels of being around EQ of 126 and an IQ of 143. It took me seven years learning and studying self reflecting, seeing all my flaws learning every single form of communication possible to be able to understand and comprehend every single type of individual to an extreme hypervigilant like type mindset this was not an easy task. I legitimately almost died , multiple times from how difficult things were. From having every single form of well mental break, going through pure hell and back, I was able to grasp so many things that I did not know or understand until after going through traumatic growth somehow I made out on the other side now I understand so much more . Now that I’ve pointed out what I had to go through to understand this shit is it important to understand others to a certain degree yes, is it worth the pain to learn it now for the average person? Unfortunately, I will say this from what I’ve learned from all of the hell scape, including day and day out 12 hours nonstop every single day for literally several years of learning at a super high academic level, which I was not smart in the beginning if anything, I’m pretty sure it was quite stupid But certain qualities and traits that come from ASD and ADHD combine and then having dyslexia, adding an extra spice to my difficulties with childhood trauma, adding in a little bit of that hyper vigilance, my obsessive type of behavior allowed me to gain a lot of information. To put it simply it’s not really that important to understand others depending on your goals in life if it’s a love interest that genuinely is love learning their communication style is key point blank. If it’s friends it depends on whether or not you value their friendship you’ll learn the communication style as well as you will have to explain your own communication style to them. Despite the fact most of the time they won’t understand, but if they’re good friends, they will accommodate Somewhat if you communicate different than your family it’s fine. They don’t have to understand. You just treat each other correctly with respect that’s it if you’re public speaker or communicator to learn how to be able to convey your message so that other people who will not understand you can understand the concepts of where you’re coming from that way they can work their mind around it and slowly work their way towards understanding. Unfortunately, most typical individuals are extremely simplistic in my opinion. This is not an negative thing but more or less an observation neat typical people literally fit in those cookie cutter shapes very some plastic to me. That is not me being arrogant. That’s me saying that they’re easier to figure out. I’ve obsessively studied facial expressions and shockingly enough was able to score way above what is normal for being able to register what each facial expression means these are all things I learnt none of these things came natural the double empathy problem still alludes me and makes my brain hurt, but I can understand through circumstantial awareness Any person with autism can achieve these things but they come at a Cost and the cost is quite high. You would think these things would be painless to learn no they’re not not for autistic or ADHD person. They are quite painful and difficult things to emotionally wrap your head around when you realize your brain just doesn’t work the same way and the way you have to go about it to figure out these lessons. It is insanely painful, and the realization of learning these things is even more painful. That’s why I said all this shit almost killed me but now for knowing what I know now I would not go back. Ignorance is bliss, but I’d rather be in Hell scape and know. PS my comment might sound a bit melodramatic sorry if anybody thinks I was being condescending, rude, arrogant or in someway I don’t know an ass with some of the remarks. This is just something that I find to be an extremely heavy topic and I’m pretty sure somebody might disagree, but that’s OK. You’re entitled to your own opinion , it doesn’t matter to me if you disagree with me.
PS sorry for my typos I was tired and I did not want to type it all out typing with voice speech sometimes it doesn’t pick up on the words very good, but I’m pretty sure the majority of what I said was readable and legible
Hmmm oddly enough, I'm not really sure if I have a definitive stance on that, because we're at a moment where consensus on how we apply the relevant terms is shaky. Anytime someone scoffs on how "level 1" autistic folks "forget" about "level 2 and 3" autistic folks when bringing these types of communication debates, I'm immediately reminded of how Naoki Higashida, in his book The Reason I Jump, recounted the experiences where he was misinterpreted as rude, even as he fulfilled the social image of a disabled person. Which is something that informs my current stance at the moment. I'm not really sure if I agree to separate this completely from disability, however I do agree in exploring this aspect of communication from its own dimension, keeping in mind that these separations often come with the reception bias of "I'm learning these things separately, I forget they operate in an inextricable way". Neurotypism definitely exists, and it has very similar bases as ableism; I feel more like it's a subtype of ableism, but that would get me butting heads with people who don't think their neurodivergency is a disability to begin. That is what I mean by "consensus is shaky". It's complicated! 😅 You brought an excellent point to be discussed!
Thank you for making this video and speaking up. I think you are on a reasonable path, but it would be prudent to remember the tie of the concept of disability to its social context. Disability exists within the context of societal structures which create unattainable goals for individuals with certain limitations, whatever they may be. An example of a limitation that (in developed nations) enjoys a lack of unattainable goals is short-sightedness. The form of accommodation it requires, corrective lenses, is widely accepted with comparatively very little stigma. In this way, it is not normally viewed as a disability. Until society is restructured and adjusted toward acceptance and normalisation of autistic traits, our lack of ability to seamlessly communicate with allistic people will continue to come up against unattainable goals and unfair measurement. This, in my opinion, *is* a disability. It is a very clear limitation in our capacity to function in society's current structure. I personally don't see an advantage in attempting to redraw the concept of this limitation in the context you describe. I think it will weaken our already precarious position. EDIT: Just so it's clear, I do still think discrimination should be called out, I just disagree about it not being a form of ableism in this case, with my logic for that being presented above.
I've been accommodating non-autistic people for 40 years because they don't care to meet me in the middle. I'm done. I'm expected to constantly meet their emotional needs, constantly deny the reality of my existence, of which I'm sure many NTs would not be able to live as me... Just saying. Think of about it. Autistic people constantly have to be emotionally strong and communication experts while non-autistic people just want to skate on by with no intent to meet us halfway. Think about it.
This is one of the most important subjects that neurodivergent advocates can focus on, thank you for covering this! I’ve noticed a few Autistic creators cover this recently (Autistamatic, Autistic AF), so it seems to be coming to fore right now. The idea that WE must always make the accomodations, rather than meeting each other in the middle, is a problem that needs to be addressed. I have a neurotypical pen friend who I know sometimes just wants to vent about her problems, whereas my first instinct is always to look for a solution. Now I say up front that my Autistic brain can’t recognise which she needs at that time, so I give her both and let her read/use the part of the email she needs from me. It suits us both wonderfully. 😁
Thanks! Yeah, there's several things going on. Yes, we are always expected to bridge the gap and that's not right. However, this issue has generally been viewed as a disability issue when it's not. Yes, autism is a disability but it is also an identity. I think, as you noted, that our differences can be addressed easy enough with understanding friends. However, more needs to be done in the workplace. Our communication gap can't be solved through accommodations. We need to identify what's actually going on, which is neuroism (bias and discrimination towards our neurodivergent traits not affiliated with disability).
0:40 From experience, learning neurotypical communication is an uphill struggle. It's a lot of masking, ego massaging, validating, affirming, and finding the "right" balance of sharing something that inspires them or makes them feel emotions they wanted to feel without burdening them with your troubles at all (not that is wise to that anyway because it becomes an invitation fpr them to chastise you and give you unsolicited advice that does not worl for you because you are neurodivergent) nor overanalyzing nor incessant questions. No two people are exactly alike, so you spend hours upon hours trying to figure out what is acceptable for one person to find only much later that it does not work at all with the next. You are then misunderstood and labeled as difficult and/or stubborn.
Fantastic video! And I agree, it's discrimination against our Neurotype because NT's expect us to just conform and they blame everything on us because we don't let them oppress us. They don't like how we see things and how we communicate our thoughts.
Yeah, it's a weird word. I ran through so many options and this one made the most sense. I looked at words relating to communication and being social, but obviously adding -ism to those words are problematic 😆 autism already ends in -ism. Neurotypism is better in some ways but not nearly as concise as all the other -isms. It's tricky!
I absolutely agree with you. I've been talking about this even before I knew I had autism. It was one of the major red flags when I started to learn about autism that maybe I have it. I would estimate that it's taken me up to twice as long as neurotypical colleagues to get promotions, which have been largely justified because of my "bad communication skills". In fact I would say the opposite is true. My father and I have a special interest in the english language and I've written essays that were regarded amongst the best in my state during high school. (Yes written and verbal communication is different, but it still points to me not "being bad at communication"). In actuality what they were trying to say to me as I eventually discovered (it took years to get the message across so I have to ask, who is the actual bad communicator?), was that people have their feelings hurt when I talk with them, as they imagine a sense of disrespect or anger that simply doesn't exist. This is because I'm not doing the secret handshakes that neurotypical people use in their communication to reinforce each others feelings. When you look at it from this angle, it is 100% inarguably neuroism. Just like discussions of race or gender or other such things, it is always the emotional comfort of the dominant class being put before the real world problems that the oppressed class suffers.
Great comment! Yeah, I've challenged people before about the inequity of it all before and I was told that's "just the way it is." It does feel like playing a game without the rules sometimes. I generally just refrain from talking to keep myself out of trouble 😕
@@ProudlyAutistic I think I know what you mean, I find it super frustrating that when you bring these issues up it's always "well in a perfect world it would be more equitable but you just have to try harder" or something along those lines.
Always. The longer I’m burnt out or on my way towards it, communication gets weird. Then shortly, nothing. Judgment is unavoidable, yet, the need to understand is rare.
At a previous high school I taught at, I was directed to take a computer technical repair job, an IT job, despite having no training or certification in that area to get me out of the classroom as a teacher. When I started co-teaching at my next high school, the lead teacher told me to be quiet during instruction time, so I wouldn't confuse the students with the why I explained the concepts. I agree it would be challenging to establish neuroism as a form of discrimination, but it must be established somehow. The Deaf community provide a framework model, but I think the hardest part we would face is defining parameters neurotypicals could understand and follow.
I am high high masking. I am considered an exceptionally articulate neurotypical person (hahaha). I do truly appreciate neurotypical people and the warmth they extend to me. I can assure you that not one of them knows me, though. Talking to anyone with any brain difference feeds me. Talking to normal people drains me. It’s that simple. Joy. Exhaustion. I can do both. I’m a double agent but I can’t really work out who I am working for. But I have the intel everyone wants: atypical is better. Not that anyone in the neuro-strait&narrow world would believe me.
I have heard the term neuronormativity used for this concept. It slots in alongside heteronormativity and allonormativity. I suppose you could define neuroism as enforcement of neuronormativity. I also think you might be using a narrower definition of disability than a lot of advocates? Those who acknowledge that autism is a disability don’t use that term only for things that require accommodations as far as I can tell. Rather it applies to anything that makes it harder for you to meet your needs whether it’s caused by your biology or societal standards, so basically a synthesis of the social and medical models. To avoid being unintentionally ableist I think it’s more accurate to say that discrimination against autistic communication is both discrimination based on a disability and discrimination based on neurotype/social identity. It doesn’t have to be either/or imo.
For many neurotypicals their belief in their neurotype as the only acceptable way for a person to be is absolute. An autistic person may try various approaches to educate them such as logically explaining the neurodivergent perspective, describing what it feels like to be the recipient of ableism, or even pointing out the trauma that may be occurring due to the discrimination. However, the neurotypical's sense of self and of the type of person they think is suitable to be an active participant in society can mean these approaches are dismissed. Most of the interactions that the neurotypical person has had over their lifetime have been with other neurotypical people. Their lived experience is that social and career success comes from neuronormativity. To the neurodivergent person this comes across as a lack of empathy on the part of the neurotypical because they are unwilling to do their share of the double empathy work. I think your concept of neuroism is worth distinguishing from just ableism, not only due to the absence of accommodations to resolve it, but that it contains an active aspect of prejudice. As you say, neuroism is like sexism and racism in that the perpetrator feels justified in discriminating due to a difference, in this case, a difference in neurotype.
You are correct. It's not a matter of motivation. I have trouble communicating with certain doctors. I have a lot of pain & that's plenty of motivation. The department is framing past events in a such a way as to cover up malpractice. This framing is interfering with my ability to get the procedure I need. I never thought of this as discrimination. I failed to get help for a long time calling every hotline & a couple members of Congress. This approach will give me access to an office which can take action instead of just re-routing my complaint.
It's frustrating that even doctors, nurses and other clinical people don't understand autism, and it's apparently not required of them. I literally showed a doctor neuroscience research on Pub Med, and the doctor STILL looked at me like I was speaking an unknown language. Wtf else do we need to do? Literally providing a doctor (I always thought doctors were medical scientists but I guess not?) legit research about neuroscience and it's like no medical doctor is required to know anything about neuroscience? It's the human experience! Maybe this is an American problem? I'm curious if other countries have health systems so infuriatingly stuck in the dark ages.
@@its.Lora. Most doctors are quite ignorant of certain niche areas of research, even if they are trained medical professionals. All scientists are like this because nobody can be an expert outside of their very specific specialization/field, it's just frustrating with doctors because you have to deal with them directly in order to get some kind of help.
@@its.Lora.: Nope, I live in The Netherlands, Europe, and it's the same here. I tell them I have severe childhood trauma, ADHD and Autism. They either treat me as retarded or as a extremely manipulative, difficult patiënt. Not as an intelligent woman who has medical issues and needs to communicate with them in a mutual trusting way. The best are the ones that are Neurodiverse themselves and open to looking at things from other perspectives.
My husband is deaf and autistic. People can't expect him to blend into a hearing and NT world. If they don't help bridge communication with him, they will just miss out.
It's really difficult to know that for some reason, right off the bat, someone doesn't like you or has an issue with you. Put a situation like that in a work environment and you wake up in a terrible mood everyday and burn out completely real quick
Yes, two jobs that I was let go from was because they didn't like me. Not because I had bad attendance or bad performance, but because they thought I was being insubordinate, or rude, or didn't like my attitude. In those two positions they eliminated my job. I think they didn't have to justify letting me go that way. Because if they tried to let me go based off "not liking me," I think they knew they would have a problem actually putting a finger on why... Probably would come up with some sort of rubbish like "not a good fit." And yet I could work circles around the people that were allowed to still work in that department.
@@SideB1984 It's tribalism in a sense. They sense some other, and react with the 'appropriate' hostility, as though the autistic individual is sufficiently different
@@SideB1984 From what I understand about American politics, I can gather that that's another game of tribalism. And there's a big divide that's tearing families apart, not uniting them. From what I've seen, it's not like blue good, red bad. I see no reason why I can't hold some more traditional views because I have a particular clinical diagnosis
i am an autism teacher, and went out with another autism teacher who literally did every stereotype about how i'm not autistic. It was like she had read the lists of what we hate and had to nail them all. Even when I pointed out my stimming lol, she would just deny it. In NT world, she was hitting on me by downplaying it, she's saying i'm really normal and cool to her. But for me it was a complete turnoff. The next day, I had a training with two autistic women and... it was effortless and the attraction was obvious... even though one had dirty velour pants and one didn't brush her teeth. lol.
The fancy hiring interviews actually discriminate against Autism by either asking how one has handled a stressful situation (because our stressful situations are not understandable and our solutions are foreign to them) or by creating some stress and watching responses without allowing the Autistic interviewee success because we need a sincere ineraction ( not this fabricated intentional one,) and we need real-time feedback in order to adapt our conversation and not this singular judgment. Because 1st impressions are not always accurate.
We can ask for the questions in advance as an accommodation. However, it feels like they could use that as a mark against us. They're not supposed to, but how can it be proven? That's why I like the idea of neuroism. It directly calls out this specific type of discrimination which is what is keeping us out of the workplace.
I believe most autistic adults are masking and undiagnosed. Having the diagnosis isn't helpful enough for my career. I'm sharing here, my experience with interview discrimination that's actually built into the interview is truly intended to discriminate. It all started in the late 80s/early 90s when it was popular to think that team players were better higher than proficient knowledgeable workers. Sigh. Studies now show it not to be true, but hiring practices haven't changed yet. It is fustrating! First impressions are a struggle to get right.
I came here to make the same suggestion. I think neurotypism would also be clearer. “Neuro” is part of many other words. Being more specific by retaining “type” could aid understanding. Whatever the terminology, it’s a very interesting shift in thinking - makes complete sense to follow the lead of other communities who have fought these battles before.
Damn, you are totally right. Ableism is too generic and too easy to dismiss and deny. This brings visibility to much of the bs that we are made to endure, And It's a low effort, HUGE impact change. Totally on-board 👏🏻💕
At the end of the day people should be allowed to communicate in any way they see fit, so long as they are not harming anyone in doing so. There is too much emphasis on "fitting in" and mindlessly following communication norms. Having the patience to communicate with differently-abled people is important. I use this term because people with disabilities possess talents that make them exceptional. Superpowers, so to speak. As a differently abled person, I have learned new ways to communicate with my fellow human beings, and have patience for communication differences. Isn't it wonderful how different we all are? Why ruin such diversity by shoving language norms down people's throats?
Saying it's a difference and not a disability is ableist and disregards the real impact of daily impairments that are experienced. Many moderate to high needs support need that recognition for support care from government and social programs.
It's both. I said it's both in this video. However, there are some things that lean more towards social identity than disability. Specifically communication, which is increasingly being supported by research. In those cases, accommodations don't help. I mean, how do you ask for an accommodation because someone thinks you talk "weird"?
@@ProudlyAutisticBut that is exactly where you seemed to be going in the right direction - just as the deaf community are entitled to accommodation in their style of communication in the workplace, so are ADHD and ASD folk. We may not be at a place where we have an interpreter, but that is the type of accommodation we are talking about. Or if we are talking about “personality”then the way we communicate is an immutable characteristic of autistic individuals. It is along the lines of “Hey Steve, nice dress” or natural Black hair. An individual does not have to like a man wearing a pantsuit or a Black person with professional locks as long as they do not use that as grounds to fire them. Same goes for an autistic individual -we should be a protected class (that would be my alternate argument under US law).
I have definitely faced discrimination because if my communication style. And have lost opportunities because of it. I already started to point out, that as an autistic person, I am communicating differently. Not bad, just differently. So yes, I agree with your theory. But it will be a hard fight.
I'd have to see stats on understanding rates between NT & NT vs ND & ND. I think most understanding comes from theory of mind use - and even NT people tend to drop the ball on that often enough, even when they don't have any disability that affects that skill.
Perhaps you'd be interested in looking up a study lead by Dr. Catherine Crompton, called the Telephone Game Experiment. It's a study on how smoothly communication processes happen: one group is entirely autistic, another entirely allistic, and there was a mixed group. The same-neurotype groups got a smoother telephone game than the cross-neurotype ones. That study was done taking as premise the Double Empathy Problem model. I have yet to know other studies, but as a starting point, thought it'd be great to share this one.
@@MariaJoseRozas I'm not sure why they've chosen rote fact communication as if that's what empathy is about. An example of empathy is knowing what the other person is most interested in, so you reduce a story down to the main bullet points they want to hear rather than telling a really long story with multiple details.
@@cairosilver2932 I'm unsure in response to what part of the suggestion this is answering to, or if it was a related point! I'm sorry if this didn't answer to your specific open inquiry 😅 We're at a point where the very definition of empathy is having a reformulation because our ways to conceive social imagination are expanding, plus it might be a classic "different strokes for different folks" scenario.
I cited another study by Crompton in this video that relates to relational rapport. I believe that would fall the definition of empathy. In it, autistic people had higher relational rapport than neurotypicals. It's an emerging area of study. Also, as it relates to long winded stories, if that's how both conversational partners communicate, what's wrong with it? They're still demonstrating interest, just not in a neurotypical way....
Yes. The answer is very nuanced. It's a mix of accommodations and better policies that promote inclusion and different ways of thinking. Design of physical space, consumer goods, and tech is also a big component.
I really hear what you're saying about differences versus disability, regarding the Double Empathy context. My worry with this is, how do you define that to Neurotypical people when they don't even know what autism is itself? Where do you even begin to define those terms or differences? It makes so much sense but I can understand why some autistic people themselves will reject this premise, simply because some genuinely just feel disabled and that's it. My fear is that this would be taken out of context by Neurotypical people to mean that autism isn't a disability at all then and what were we advocating for at all in the first place! Given the communication deficits we know we have with each other and so that will be misinterpreted as not needing the support (financial, housing, work etc.) that we absolutely do need as well! I can totally align with what you're saying in this context but it does worry me that the disabled needs will then be discounted and we find ourselves in more dire straits than when we began. I'm not sure if this is a case of running before you can walk, kind of conversation. I'm really intrigued but a little fearful of how this will be interpreted by Neurotypicals.
You make really good points. I think we can learn a lot from the Deaf community as they're in a very similar situation and have decades on us as it relates to advocacy experience. You do make a good point about some of our communication challenges and how that can complicate advocacy efforts. I think this concept could have the highest impact in places where autistic individuals are trying to be independent (especially the workplace). I think a lot of people feel compelled to disclose at work because they don't want to be discriminated against. But that's neither how accommodation or how disability legal protections work (in most scenarios). It leaves us wide open to be fired for our autistic traits. Training employers about neuroism (or whatever it's called) puts them on notice that they can't use our lack of accommodation request as reason to fire us for not acting neurotypical.
While i agree that having a descriptive label for the social phenomena would be useful for us, i think most people are going to take it as "trying to be special" and then it will get overused and distorted by bad actors before it takes hold. Then again, a lot of things are coming to light in society in regards to personality differences and the general dismantling of social norms. So, i very much agree with it but we should prepare ourselves for a patronizing response. Before i even knew that autism existed, it has always been very apparent that i understand the world and other people differently than many but that I'm also not alone in how i think and communicate. When i meet other autistic people we just click. Sometimes we clash, sure, and it gets messy, but it's still more understandable than NTs and trying to be like them. With NTs i always seem to get it wrong and they frustrate me with their weird mind games that no one is allowed to talk about, effectively keeping me from learning it at all. I give up now. I've tried for 36 years to be like them and simply can't. I thought i was just broken for so much of it, and it hasn't been until recently where I've actually just accepted who i am and if people don't like me, fine! I'll go find people who do.
Great comment! Yeah, I'm sure some NTs would roll their eyes at this concept. I do think it's important though that we start to acknowledge autism advocacy as both a disability AND social identity issue. Glad you made it to the other side to self acceptance. It can be a tough journey 💛
Have you ever watched Ren on RUclips? An absolute genius that I believe is probably at least not neurotypical. All his music is what I consider the most gifted in the history of musician, but completely genius and relating to people with mental health and physical disabilities.
I agree, but the bigger point is that we're talking about it. Right now we're just told we should ask for a non existent accommodation. This at least brings awareness.
We are trying hard enough. I've hated hearing that by so many people and it's not that I like to blame anyone or neurotypicals I don't want to but it is mostly true that they don't TRY to understand us at least mostly in my experience it's seems to be that way
I once had a conversation with a NT about this, about how some of the things they did don't make sense and are confusing. The response was "that's just the way it is." So to your point, no, they don't see any responsibility to change their social norms. And I don't necessarily expect them to. However, it would be nice if they could acknowledge that we have our own set of norms and they can coexist. We're not inherently wrong because we're not like them.
Neurodivergent/Neurotypical to my mind already separate these different thinking/communication styles, where neither need be negative nor positive in meaning, just different and accepted as equivalent. I think it's more about public education and awareness, as well as normalising both styles of communication in the media, at home, in the workplace, etc. When we go abroad, we often learn some local cultural practices in an attempt to fit in, some of which can involve more direct/indirect communication styles. Our world is therefore perhaps too neurotypically-centric, and we could all do with practicing cultural exchange more closely to home. It's probably high time the neurotypical/able-bodied wonders did some environmental/cultural adapting of their own instead of expecting everyone else to do it for them. We all share this world together. I don't think we need to invent new words. Truth is, I think disability is largely in the eye of the beholder, and it doesn't really matter how you perceive yourself, or want to be perceived by others. If another person treats you less/more favourably because of what they perceive of as your disability, regardless of any accuracy in that perception or how you prefer to refer to yourself, you are still subject to their discriminatory biases against you whether they realise it or not, too. When I say I'm disabled, what I really mean is I'm disabled (by society). My diagnosis or resulting symptoms don't disable me per se, although it does often require different approaches in reaching the same goals and outcomes as anyone else who'd never refer to themselves as disabled. Much of the challenges I experience in being accepted as an equal, as far as I can see, speak volumes more about the society around me and the ill-informed assumptions they make about me, than they do about my own capabilities. I could have achieved so much more if it weren't for all those obvious barriers dominant society erect in our way but somehow lack ability to perceive themselves. Instead, they seem so heavily focused on my perceived differences, as they see it, as the root problem that needs fixing above all else to make me acceptably 'normal' to them, and so that they can feel 'comfortable', again. Thus my failure to comply leads to their devaluation of me and their continued discomfort around me, and so this ugly vicious circle continues repeating itself. I doubt a new word, that seeks to separate the non-disabled parts of your neurodivergent self from what might be your more support-needing areas of the same diagnosis, would fix that! Just as with with any disability category or type, really, it requires a much higher degree of awareness and understanding from society than it currently demonstrates. You'd still potentially need to fall back on anti-disability discrimination legislation to fight any discrimination, which is defined under very broadly defined categories/areas of discrimination. I guess this is a good thing if it reduces the complexity of determining when discrimination has taken place. This would also mean accepting that you are disabled, to some extent, I think. That said, if your new word brings you and your friends to a happier place together, then maybe that's where its true value resides! :)
I think general understanding of neurodiversity can go a long way. However, there's still many that feel no obligation to meet us in the middle. Disability legislation also has failed to protect us.. Just look at our abnormally high unemployment numbers. One of the reasons they get away with it is because they say it's not a disability issue, it's a personality issue. While a new term won't stop it, it might bring awareness to the issue.
And yet I work in a team with an Autistic and for an AuDHDer and I prefer interaction with the alistics if I'm honest. Although I think that's more to do with a well balanced NT is preferable over messed up ND if you're working for them 🤦♂️🤷♂️. Yay work!
I think, oftentimes, a more useful framing is to extend the concept of audism to more general discrimination against minority languages, dialects, and registers. If you look at Canadian and American residential and boarding schools as industrial centres of linguistic genocide, or the still-continuing practice of corporally punishing native Hawai'ians for speaking Hawai'ian in school, there's functionally no difference between that and audist practices like oralism (only teaching spoken language... which is actually closely related to the linguistic genocide of Indigenous "hand talk" systems), or the hiring discrimination Black Americans face for using African American English (notably unlike White Americans who appropriate features of Black language, and the ABA torture performed on Autistic people as well as the more subtle ways in which Autistic people are expeted to conform to neuronormative styles of communication. I'm very much not a fan of legalism, but all of this does place discrimination against Autistic norms of communication firmly within existing frameworks protecting against discrimination based on national identity, at least to the extent that an Autistic national identity exists (it does, but it's closer to an edge case than we should be confortable with). Instead of working to create a whole new legal category of discrimination, it's much more efficient to work within existing frameworks.
I really appreciate this video, but as far as i'm aware, there is already a term distinct from ableism that covers this, although perhaps there is some distinction that i am failing to see, and i would be open to being corrected. That term being "sanism," as in, the discrimination against those minds which are considered by neurotypical society to be "insane." Nowadays they call them mental illnesses, or disorders, or whatever else, but the base these constructs are built on is the idea of "insanity," meaning uncleanliness, meaning they think of our minds as inherently gross and dirty, which i find lines up quite well with the way that people deemed as such are generally treated. To give an example that really draws in to focus the distinction between sanism and ableism, i was forcibly medicated for OCD as a child, and, while there are aspects of OCD that i do find disabling, the traits that i find helpful i consider to be far more important. Not only that, the traits i find helpful are the ones which were most noticed and discriminated against by others. When i lost these traits due to the medication, i lost the function that came with them, i was made in to a less capable person, and that's without even getting in to the way that the medication made me sleep a minimum of 11 hours a day, made me feel half asleep even when i was awake, made it so much harder to move and to control my body. I was made more disabled than i was before, to a profound extent, and yet, i was discriminated against far less, people liked me, or at least they seemed to, because i was sane, or at least i seemed to be. Sanism punishes the insane for our strengths and rewards the sane for their weaknesses.
This is really interesting, thanks! It seems sanism was coined specific to acquired neurodiversity, although the theory could be used for clinical and applied as well. The principal is similar enough that I think it could encompass what I was speaking to. However, I can't see that term ever being widely adopted due to the use of "insane." It was also coined in the 60s by someone (I didn't do a deep dive so I don't know for sure) who doesn't represent the community he labeled. So yes, a label exists but I suspect most in the autistic community would reject it. It's not particularly helpful for advocacy if no one wants to use it
@@ProudlyAutistic fair points all around, especially the last one. my personal experience in lgbt spaces is that almost every word to describe us was an insult or a slur first, and that even as new insults and slurs are invented, they become reclaimed nearly instantly, so i often forget that other communities i'm in might be a little less in to the whole "reclaiming slurs" thing. then again, there is also a world-wide "mad pride" movement, so it's hard to say. at the end of the day, there's more than enough room in the world to both invent new terms which are respectful from the ground up, and reclaim old insults at the same time.
Whilst I understand that a neurodifference doesnt necessarily make you disabled, certain traits due to an individual's neurotype can prove disabling for them. I think it's important that we acknowledge the individual's right to identify themselves as disabled because of their neurotype if they find that their neurotype causes them challenges and distress in the context in which they place themselves, regardless of how we feel about the way in which we understand disability. Just as someone says "you cant be autistic for XYZ reason", we shouldnt be telling people "youre not disabled for XYZ" reason. Let people identify themselves.
I could have elaborated on this. Perhaps a separate video? It wasn't my intent here to say it's one or the other. Simply to state that we are also discriminated against for specific characteristics that are more inline with identity. The way I communicate and think sometimes is disabling. But there are also aspects that are just different. I have zero sense of humor for example. I wouldn't consider that a disability, even though it's due to my autism. I've definitely been penalized in the workplace for these types of traits and there's really no way to effectively fight against it from a disability perspective. We will just be told we have a bad personality. It's nuanced but I think the distinction is important as it relates to promoting policy. As I noted with the Deaf community, you can have both labels (identity and disability) from an advocacy perspective, it doesn't need to be one or the other.
I recently moved (that wasnt fun) and met my neighbor. I introduced myself and mentioned that I am autistic. Got the wombo combo of, "you dont look autistic" and "we all are a little autistic.". I just chalk it up to ignorance. People will learn, assuming they are open to learning.
6:49 Well, when you frame it that way, then that has the possibility of getting more traction. 😮🤔 Not sure how accommodations will be provided across different companies, especially when neurotypical people are being intolerant of neurodivergent speech patterns and stimming behavior.
Not specifically, but I can talk about red flags and boundaries. My partner of many years is autistic. I can see if hed be up for doing a relationship video with me sometime.
4:44 While I agree, it's still merely splitting hairs. There are no accommodations for differences in communication styles between neurotypical and neurodivergent individuals. Ergo, that is not a good fit.
Hey, wait! Why should the "neurotypical" people be excused from thinking and communicating according to "autistic" community norms? I am not really sure that I should even make such a comment, but I just did. There it is!
What are your thoughts about calling out communication bias and differentiating it from ableism?
it’s a complex topic. One I understand the process of understanding other individuals processes and different viewpoints from other peoples perspectives. I did not have this mentality in the past I had to go through traumatic growth and when I mean, traumatic growth, I mean I legitimately had to go through trauma to be able to grow to the point where I’m at now, it honestly requires men amounts of studying of the three different types of empathy. Then you have to understand social cues. Then you have to understand sociology psychology, even some philosophy, understanding the human condition and understanding the rest of those things from fundamental principles of first principal thinking, breaking it down then you have to understand why people react the way they do understand the way they’re bringing ticks and the way they think the way people perceive the world, you have to spend an amends amount of dragging long periods of time to be able to comprehend all different aspects of other peoples viewpoint, beliefs, behaviors, analyzing their faces and facial structures learning them.
I have extremely high, cognitive empathy, despite the fact that I used to have extreme deficits in this area I used to have really poor affective empathy, but I had very good compassionate empathy.
Now, when it comes to understanding all these things, I finally have reached levels of being around EQ of 126 and an IQ of 143. It took me seven years learning and studying self reflecting, seeing all my flaws learning every single form of communication possible to be able to understand and comprehend every single type of individual to an extreme hypervigilant like type mindset this was not an easy task. I legitimately almost died , multiple times from how difficult things were.
From having every single form of well mental break, going through pure hell and back, I was able to grasp so many things that I did not know or understand until after going through traumatic growth somehow I made out on the other side now I understand so much more .
Now that I’ve pointed out what I had to go through to understand this shit is it important to understand others to a certain degree yes, is it worth the pain to learn it now for the average person?
Unfortunately, I will say this from what I’ve learned from all of the hell scape, including day and day out 12 hours nonstop every single day for literally several years of learning at a super high academic level, which I was not smart in the beginning if anything, I’m pretty sure it was quite stupid But certain qualities and traits that come from ASD and ADHD combine and then having dyslexia, adding an extra spice to my difficulties with childhood trauma, adding in a little bit of that hyper vigilance, my obsessive type of behavior allowed me to gain a lot of information.
To put it simply it’s not really that important to understand others depending on your goals in life if it’s a love interest that genuinely is love learning their communication style is key point blank. If it’s friends it depends on whether or not you value their friendship you’ll learn the communication style as well as you will have to explain your own communication style to them. Despite the fact most of the time they won’t understand, but if they’re good friends, they will accommodate Somewhat if you communicate different than your family it’s fine. They don’t have to understand. You just treat each other correctly with respect that’s it if you’re public speaker or communicator to learn how to be able to convey your message so that other people who will not understand you can understand the concepts of where you’re coming from that way they can work their mind around it and slowly work their way towards understanding.
Unfortunately, most typical individuals are extremely simplistic in my opinion. This is not an negative thing but more or less an observation neat typical people literally fit in those cookie cutter shapes very some plastic to me. That is not me being arrogant. That’s me saying that they’re easier to figure out.
I’ve obsessively studied facial expressions and shockingly enough was able to score way above what is normal for being able to register what each facial expression means these are all things I learnt none of these things came natural the double empathy problem still alludes me and makes my brain hurt, but I can understand through circumstantial awareness Any person with autism can achieve these things but they come at a Cost and the cost is quite high. You would think these things would be painless to learn no they’re not not for autistic or ADHD person. They are quite painful and difficult things to emotionally wrap your head around when you realize your brain just doesn’t work the same way and the way you have to go about it to figure out these lessons. It is insanely painful, and the realization of learning these things is even more painful. That’s why I said all this shit almost killed me but now for knowing what I know now I would not go back. Ignorance is bliss, but I’d rather be in Hell scape and know.
PS my comment might sound a bit melodramatic sorry if anybody thinks I was being condescending, rude, arrogant or in someway I don’t know an ass with some of the remarks. This is just something that I find to be an extremely heavy topic and I’m pretty sure somebody might disagree, but that’s OK. You’re entitled to your own opinion , it doesn’t matter to me if you disagree with me.
PS sorry for my typos I was tired and I did not want to type it all out typing with voice speech sometimes it doesn’t pick up on the words very good, but I’m pretty sure the majority of what I said was readable and legible
Hmmm oddly enough, I'm not really sure if I have a definitive stance on that, because we're at a moment where consensus on how we apply the relevant terms is shaky.
Anytime someone scoffs on how "level 1" autistic folks "forget" about "level 2 and 3" autistic folks when bringing these types of communication debates, I'm immediately reminded of how Naoki Higashida, in his book The Reason I Jump, recounted the experiences where he was misinterpreted as rude, even as he fulfilled the social image of a disabled person. Which is something that informs my current stance at the moment.
I'm not really sure if I agree to separate this completely from disability, however I do agree in exploring this aspect of communication from its own dimension, keeping in mind that these separations often come with the reception bias of "I'm learning these things separately, I forget they operate in an inextricable way". Neurotypism definitely exists, and it has very similar bases as ableism; I feel more like it's a subtype of ableism, but that would get me butting heads with people who don't think their neurodivergency is a disability to begin. That is what I mean by "consensus is shaky".
It's complicated! 😅 You brought an excellent point to be discussed!
Thank you for making this video and speaking up.
I think you are on a reasonable path, but it would be prudent to remember the tie of the concept of disability to its social context. Disability exists within the context of societal structures which create unattainable goals for individuals with certain limitations, whatever they may be.
An example of a limitation that (in developed nations) enjoys a lack of unattainable goals is short-sightedness. The form of accommodation it requires, corrective lenses, is widely accepted with comparatively very little stigma. In this way, it is not normally viewed as a disability.
Until society is restructured and adjusted toward acceptance and normalisation of autistic traits, our lack of ability to seamlessly communicate with allistic people will continue to come up against unattainable goals and unfair measurement. This, in my opinion, *is* a disability. It is a very clear limitation in our capacity to function in society's current structure. I personally don't see an advantage in attempting to redraw the concept of this limitation in the context you describe. I think it will weaken our already precarious position.
EDIT: Just so it's clear, I do still think discrimination should be called out, I just disagree about it not being a form of ableism in this case, with my logic for that being presented above.
Would you like an autistic village for better communication?
There is a spectrum
Like the rainbow
I've been accommodating non-autistic people for 40 years because they don't care to meet me in the middle. I'm done. I'm expected to constantly meet their emotional needs, constantly deny the reality of my existence, of which I'm sure many NTs would not be able to live as me... Just saying. Think of about it. Autistic people constantly have to be emotionally strong and communication experts while non-autistic people just want to skate on by with no intent to meet us halfway. Think about it.
This is one of the most important subjects that neurodivergent advocates can focus on, thank you for covering this! I’ve noticed a few Autistic creators cover this recently (Autistamatic, Autistic AF), so it seems to be coming to fore right now. The idea that WE must always make the accomodations, rather than meeting each other in the middle, is a problem that needs to be addressed.
I have a neurotypical pen friend who I know sometimes just wants to vent about her problems, whereas my first instinct is always to look for a solution. Now I say up front that my Autistic brain can’t recognise which she needs at that time, so I give her both and let her read/use the part of the email she needs from me. It suits us both wonderfully. 😁
Thanks! Yeah, there's several things going on. Yes, we are always expected to bridge the gap and that's not right. However, this issue has generally been viewed as a disability issue when it's not. Yes, autism is a disability but it is also an identity. I think, as you noted, that our differences can be addressed easy enough with understanding friends. However, more needs to be done in the workplace. Our communication gap can't be solved through accommodations. We need to identify what's actually going on, which is neuroism (bias and discrimination towards our neurodivergent traits not affiliated with disability).
0:40 From experience, learning neurotypical communication is an uphill struggle. It's a lot of masking, ego massaging, validating, affirming, and finding the "right" balance of sharing something that inspires them or makes them feel emotions they wanted to feel without burdening them with your troubles at all (not that is wise to that anyway because it becomes an invitation fpr them to chastise you and give you unsolicited advice that does not worl for you because you are neurodivergent) nor overanalyzing nor incessant questions. No two people are exactly alike, so you spend hours upon hours trying to figure out what is acceptable for one person to find only much later that it does not work at all with the next. You are then misunderstood and labeled as difficult and/or stubborn.
Fantastic video! And I agree, it's discrimination against our Neurotype because NT's expect us to just conform and they blame everything on us because we don't let them oppress us. They don't like how we see things and how we communicate our thoughts.
Thank you Isabella! Great comment!
I don't know if I like the term "neuroism" specifically but I absolutely agree that this needs a word and needs to be called out more.
Yeah, it's a weird word. I ran through so many options and this one made the most sense. I looked at words relating to communication and being social, but obviously adding -ism to those words are problematic 😆 autism already ends in -ism. Neurotypism is better in some ways but not nearly as concise as all the other -isms. It's tricky!
I absolutely agree with you. I've been talking about this even before I knew I had autism. It was one of the major red flags when I started to learn about autism that maybe I have it. I would estimate that it's taken me up to twice as long as neurotypical colleagues to get promotions, which have been largely justified because of my "bad communication skills". In fact I would say the opposite is true. My father and I have a special interest in the english language and I've written essays that were regarded amongst the best in my state during high school. (Yes written and verbal communication is different, but it still points to me not "being bad at communication"). In actuality what they were trying to say to me as I eventually discovered (it took years to get the message across so I have to ask, who is the actual bad communicator?), was that people have their feelings hurt when I talk with them, as they imagine a sense of disrespect or anger that simply doesn't exist. This is because I'm not doing the secret handshakes that neurotypical people use in their communication to reinforce each others feelings. When you look at it from this angle, it is 100% inarguably neuroism. Just like discussions of race or gender or other such things, it is always the emotional comfort of the dominant class being put before the real world problems that the oppressed class suffers.
Great comment! Yeah, I've challenged people before about the inequity of it all before and I was told that's "just the way it is." It does feel like playing a game without the rules sometimes. I generally just refrain from talking to keep myself out of trouble 😕
@@ProudlyAutistic I think I know what you mean, I find it super frustrating that when you bring these issues up it's always "well in a perfect world it would be more equitable but you just have to try harder" or something along those lines.
Always. The longer I’m burnt out or on my way towards it, communication gets weird. Then shortly, nothing. Judgment is unavoidable, yet, the need to understand is rare.
At a previous high school I taught at, I was directed to take a computer technical repair job, an IT job, despite having no training or certification in that area to get me out of the classroom as a teacher. When I started co-teaching at my next high school, the lead teacher told me to be quiet during instruction time, so I wouldn't confuse the students with the why I explained the concepts. I agree it would be challenging to establish neuroism as a form of discrimination, but it must be established somehow. The Deaf community provide a framework model, but I think the hardest part we would face is defining parameters neurotypicals could understand and follow.
I am high high masking. I am considered an exceptionally articulate neurotypical person (hahaha). I do truly appreciate neurotypical people and the warmth they extend to me. I can assure you that not one of them knows me, though. Talking to anyone with any brain difference feeds me. Talking to normal people drains me. It’s that simple. Joy. Exhaustion. I can do both. I’m a double agent but I can’t really work out who I am working for. But I have the intel everyone wants: atypical is better. Not that anyone in the neuro-strait&narrow world would believe me.
Well said. The double agent image is great 😊 I have had similar experiences.
Oh man, out of everybody we have to give ourselves grace. Appreciate what you’re sharing.
I have heard the term neuronormativity used for this concept. It slots in alongside heteronormativity and allonormativity. I suppose you could define neuroism as enforcement of neuronormativity.
I also think you might be using a narrower definition of disability than a lot of advocates? Those who acknowledge that autism is a disability don’t use that term only for things that require accommodations as far as I can tell. Rather it applies to anything that makes it harder for you to meet your needs whether it’s caused by your biology or societal standards, so basically a synthesis of the social and medical models. To avoid being unintentionally ableist I think it’s more accurate to say that discrimination against autistic communication is both discrimination based on a disability and discrimination based on neurotype/social identity. It doesn’t have to be either/or imo.
For many neurotypicals their belief in their neurotype as the only acceptable way for a person to be is absolute. An autistic person may try various approaches to educate them such as logically explaining the neurodivergent perspective, describing what it feels like to be the recipient of ableism, or even pointing out the trauma that may be occurring due to the discrimination. However, the neurotypical's sense of self and of the type of person they think is suitable to be an active participant in society can mean these approaches are dismissed. Most of the interactions that the neurotypical person has had over their lifetime have been with other neurotypical people. Their lived experience is that social and career success comes from neuronormativity.
To the neurodivergent person this comes across as a lack of empathy on the part of the neurotypical because they are unwilling to do their share of the double empathy work.
I think your concept of neuroism is worth distinguishing from just ableism, not only due to the absence of accommodations to resolve it, but that it contains an active aspect of prejudice. As you say, neuroism is like sexism and racism in that the perpetrator feels justified in discriminating due to a difference, in this case, a difference in neurotype.
You are correct. It's not a matter of motivation. I have trouble communicating with certain doctors. I have a lot of pain & that's plenty of motivation. The department is framing past events in a such a way as to cover up malpractice. This framing is interfering with my ability to get the procedure I need. I never thought of this as discrimination. I failed to get help for a long time calling every hotline & a couple members of Congress. This approach will give me access to an office which can take action instead of just re-routing my complaint.
It's frustrating that even doctors, nurses and other clinical people don't understand autism, and it's apparently not required of them. I literally showed a doctor neuroscience research on Pub Med, and the doctor STILL looked at me like I was speaking an unknown language. Wtf else do we need to do? Literally providing a doctor (I always thought doctors were medical scientists but I guess not?) legit research about neuroscience and it's like no medical doctor is required to know anything about neuroscience? It's the human experience! Maybe this is an American problem? I'm curious if other countries have health systems so infuriatingly stuck in the dark ages.
@@its.Lora. Most doctors are quite ignorant of certain niche areas of research, even if they are trained medical professionals. All scientists are like this because nobody can be an expert outside of their very specific specialization/field, it's just frustrating with doctors because you have to deal with them directly in order to get some kind of help.
@@its.Lora.: Nope, I live in The Netherlands, Europe, and it's the same here. I tell them I have severe childhood trauma, ADHD and Autism. They either treat me as retarded or as a extremely manipulative, difficult patiënt. Not as an intelligent woman who has medical issues and needs to communicate with them in a mutual trusting way. The best are the ones that are Neurodiverse themselves and open to looking at things from other perspectives.
Thanks for bringing up about the Deaf & HOH community as a parallel to us.
Absolutely! We can learn so much from them.
@@ProudlyAutistic Very true! My husband is profoundly HOH, and he's brought me many insights into me being autistic.
My husband is deaf and autistic. People can't expect him to blend into a hearing and NT world. If they don't help bridge communication with him, they will just miss out.
Neuroism is spot-on. I'm officially adding it to my lexicon
me too!
It's really difficult to know that for some reason, right off the bat, someone doesn't like you or has an issue with you. Put a situation like that in a work environment and you wake up in a terrible mood everyday and burn out completely real quick
Yes, two jobs that I was let go from was because they didn't like me. Not because I had bad attendance or bad performance, but because they thought I was being insubordinate, or rude, or didn't like my attitude. In those two positions they eliminated my job. I think they didn't have to justify letting me go that way. Because if they tried to let me go based off "not liking me," I think they knew they would have a problem actually putting a finger on why... Probably would come up with some sort of rubbish like "not a good fit." And yet I could work circles around the people that were allowed to still work in that department.
@@SideB1984 It's tribalism in a sense. They sense some other, and react with the 'appropriate' hostility, as though the autistic individual is sufficiently different
@@SideB1984 From what I understand about American politics, I can gather that that's another game of tribalism. And there's a big divide that's tearing families apart, not uniting them. From what I've seen, it's not like blue good, red bad. I see no reason why I can't hold some more traditional views because I have a particular clinical diagnosis
i am an autism teacher, and went out with another autism teacher who literally did every stereotype about how i'm not autistic. It was like she had read the lists of what we hate and had to nail them all.
Even when I pointed out my stimming lol, she would just deny it.
In NT world, she was hitting on me by downplaying it, she's saying i'm really normal and cool to her.
But for me it was a complete turnoff.
The next day, I had a training with two autistic women and... it was effortless and the attraction was obvious... even though one had dirty velour pants and one didn't brush her teeth. lol.
The fancy hiring interviews actually discriminate against Autism by either asking how one has handled a stressful situation (because our stressful situations are not understandable and our solutions are foreign to them) or by
creating some stress and watching responses without allowing the Autistic interviewee success because we need a sincere ineraction ( not this fabricated intentional one,) and we need real-time feedback in order to adapt our conversation and not this singular judgment. Because 1st impressions are not always accurate.
We can ask for the questions in advance as an accommodation. However, it feels like they could use that as a mark against us. They're not supposed to, but how can it be proven? That's why I like the idea of neuroism. It directly calls out this specific type of discrimination which is what is keeping us out of the workplace.
I believe most autistic adults are masking and undiagnosed. Having the diagnosis isn't helpful enough for my career. I'm sharing here, my experience with interview discrimination that's actually built into the interview is truly intended to discriminate. It all started in the late 80s/early 90s when it was popular to think that team players were better higher than proficient knowledgeable workers. Sigh. Studies now show it not to be true, but hiring practices haven't changed yet. It is fustrating! First impressions are a struggle to get right.
Yeah it’s absolutely tiring to constantly perform to meet their expectations. It would be so much better to meet in the middle tbh
Agree!
Very well described - thank you
I think this distinction is a useful and good one to make and I think your name for it is great!
another great advocacy video.
Thank you 💛
Yes this is so true! I think neurotypism would be easier to say but i am on board with the concept 😊
I agree the wording is a little clunky. The more important thing is that we're talking about it and start recognizing the bias. Language will come 💛
I came here to make the same suggestion. I think neurotypism would also be clearer. “Neuro” is part of many other words. Being more specific by retaining “type” could aid understanding.
Whatever the terminology, it’s a very interesting shift in thinking - makes complete sense to follow the lead of other communities who have fought these battles before.
Thank you for a great video. Most empathy to me is small talk.
I like it. Great points, Karen!
Damn, you are totally right. Ableism is too generic and too easy to dismiss and deny.
This brings visibility to much of the bs that we are made to endure,
And It's a low effort, HUGE impact change.
Totally on-board 👏🏻💕
At the end of the day people should be allowed to communicate in any way they see fit, so long as they are not harming anyone in doing so.
There is too much emphasis on "fitting in" and mindlessly following communication norms. Having the patience to communicate with differently-abled people is important. I use this term because people with disabilities possess talents that make them exceptional. Superpowers, so to speak.
As a differently abled person, I have learned new ways to communicate with my fellow human beings, and have patience for communication differences. Isn't it wonderful how different we all are? Why ruin such diversity by shoving language norms down people's throats?
Saying it's a difference and not a disability is ableist and disregards the real impact of daily impairments that are experienced. Many moderate to high needs support need that recognition for support care from government and social programs.
It's both. I said it's both in this video. However, there are some things that lean more towards social identity than disability. Specifically communication, which is increasingly being supported by research. In those cases, accommodations don't help. I mean, how do you ask for an accommodation because someone thinks you talk "weird"?
@@ProudlyAutistic That is not the context wherein accommodations are made. It may lean for you, but not for many, many others.
@@ProudlyAutisticBut that is exactly where you seemed to be going in the right direction - just as the deaf community are entitled to accommodation in their style of communication in the workplace, so are ADHD and ASD folk. We may not be at a place where we have an interpreter, but that is the type of accommodation we are talking about.
Or if we are talking about “personality”then the way we communicate is an immutable characteristic of autistic individuals. It is along the lines of “Hey Steve, nice dress” or natural Black hair. An individual does not have to like a man wearing a pantsuit or a Black person with professional locks as long as they do not use that as grounds to fire them. Same goes for an autistic individual -we should be a protected class (that would be my alternate argument under US law).
I have definitely faced discrimination because if my communication style. And have lost opportunities because of it.
I already started to point out, that as an autistic person, I am communicating differently. Not bad, just differently.
So yes, I agree with your theory. But it will be a hard fight.
I'd have to see stats on understanding rates between NT & NT vs ND & ND. I think most understanding comes from theory of mind use - and even NT people tend to drop the ball on that often enough, even when they don't have any disability that affects that skill.
Perhaps you'd be interested in looking up a study lead by Dr. Catherine Crompton, called the Telephone Game Experiment. It's a study on how smoothly communication processes happen: one group is entirely autistic, another entirely allistic, and there was a mixed group. The same-neurotype groups got a smoother telephone game than the cross-neurotype ones.
That study was done taking as premise the Double Empathy Problem model. I have yet to know other studies, but as a starting point, thought it'd be great to share this one.
@@MariaJoseRozas I'm not sure why they've chosen rote fact communication as if that's what empathy is about. An example of empathy is knowing what the other person is most interested in, so you reduce a story down to the main bullet points they want to hear rather than telling a really long story with multiple details.
@@cairosilver2932 I'm unsure in response to what part of the suggestion this is answering to, or if it was a related point! I'm sorry if this didn't answer to your specific open inquiry 😅
We're at a point where the very definition of empathy is having a reformulation because our ways to conceive social imagination are expanding, plus it might be a classic "different strokes for different folks" scenario.
I cited another study by Crompton in this video that relates to relational rapport. I believe that would fall the definition of empathy. In it, autistic people had higher relational rapport than neurotypicals. It's an emerging area of study. Also, as it relates to long winded stories, if that's how both conversational partners communicate, what's wrong with it? They're still demonstrating interest, just not in a neurotypical way....
Can you make a video detailing how you can be more accommodating for autistic people?
Yes. The answer is very nuanced. It's a mix of accommodations and better policies that promote inclusion and different ways of thinking. Design of physical space, consumer goods, and tech is also a big component.
I really hear what you're saying about differences versus disability, regarding the Double Empathy context. My worry with this is, how do you define that to Neurotypical people when they don't even know what autism is itself? Where do you even begin to define those terms or differences? It makes so much sense but I can understand why some autistic people themselves will reject this premise, simply because some genuinely just feel disabled and that's it. My fear is that this would be taken out of context by Neurotypical people to mean that autism isn't a disability at all then and what were we advocating for at all in the first place! Given the communication deficits we know we have with each other and so that will be misinterpreted as not needing the support (financial, housing, work etc.) that we absolutely do need as well! I can totally align with what you're saying in this context but it does worry me that the disabled needs will then be discounted and we find ourselves in more dire straits than when we began. I'm not sure if this is a case of running before you can walk, kind of conversation. I'm really intrigued but a little fearful of how this will be interpreted by Neurotypicals.
You make really good points. I think we can learn a lot from the Deaf community as they're in a very similar situation and have decades on us as it relates to advocacy experience. You do make a good point about some of our communication challenges and how that can complicate advocacy efforts.
I think this concept could have the highest impact in places where autistic individuals are trying to be independent (especially the workplace). I think a lot of people feel compelled to disclose at work because they don't want to be discriminated against. But that's neither how accommodation or how disability legal protections work (in most scenarios). It leaves us wide open to be fired for our autistic traits. Training employers about neuroism (or whatever it's called) puts them on notice that they can't use our lack of accommodation request as reason to fire us for not acting neurotypical.
While i agree that having a descriptive label for the social phenomena would be useful for us, i think most people are going to take it as "trying to be special" and then it will get overused and distorted by bad actors before it takes hold. Then again, a lot of things are coming to light in society in regards to personality differences and the general dismantling of social norms. So, i very much agree with it but we should prepare ourselves for a patronizing response.
Before i even knew that autism existed, it has always been very apparent that i understand the world and other people differently than many but that I'm also not alone in how i think and communicate. When i meet other autistic people we just click. Sometimes we clash, sure, and it gets messy, but it's still more understandable than NTs and trying to be like them. With NTs i always seem to get it wrong and they frustrate me with their weird mind games that no one is allowed to talk about, effectively keeping me from learning it at all.
I give up now. I've tried for 36 years to be like them and simply can't. I thought i was just broken for so much of it, and it hasn't been until recently where I've actually just accepted who i am and if people don't like me, fine! I'll go find people who do.
Great comment! Yeah, I'm sure some NTs would roll their eyes at this concept. I do think it's important though that we start to acknowledge autism advocacy as both a disability AND social identity issue.
Glad you made it to the other side to self acceptance. It can be a tough journey 💛
Have you ever watched Ren on RUclips? An absolute genius that I believe is probably at least not neurotypical. All his music is what I consider the most gifted in the history of musician, but completely genius and relating to people with mental health and physical disabilities.
No I haven't. I'll check them out!
The problem with neuroism would be the same.
In case of a disagreement how to prove it, how to pin it down?
I agree, but the bigger point is that we're talking about it. Right now we're just told we should ask for a non existent accommodation. This at least brings awareness.
We are trying hard enough. I've hated hearing that by so many people and it's not that I like to blame anyone or neurotypicals I don't want to but it is mostly true that they don't TRY to understand us at least mostly in my experience it's seems to be that way
I once had a conversation with a NT about this, about how some of the things they did don't make sense and are confusing. The response was "that's just the way it is." So to your point, no, they don't see any responsibility to change their social norms. And I don't necessarily expect them to. However, it would be nice if they could acknowledge that we have our own set of norms and they can coexist. We're not inherently wrong because we're not like them.
Neurodivergent/Neurotypical to my mind already separate these different thinking/communication styles, where neither need be negative nor positive in meaning, just different and accepted as equivalent. I think it's more about public education and awareness, as well as normalising both styles of communication in the media, at home, in the workplace, etc. When we go abroad, we often learn some local cultural practices in an attempt to fit in, some of which can involve more direct/indirect communication styles. Our world is therefore perhaps too neurotypically-centric, and we could all do with practicing cultural exchange more closely to home. It's probably high time the neurotypical/able-bodied wonders did some environmental/cultural adapting of their own instead of expecting everyone else to do it for them. We all share this world together. I don't think we need to invent new words.
Truth is, I think disability is largely in the eye of the beholder, and it doesn't really matter how you perceive yourself, or want to be perceived by others. If another person treats you less/more favourably because of what they perceive of as your disability, regardless of any accuracy in that perception or how you prefer to refer to yourself, you are still subject to their discriminatory biases against you whether they realise it or not, too.
When I say I'm disabled, what I really mean is I'm disabled (by society). My diagnosis or resulting symptoms don't disable me per se, although it does often require different approaches in reaching the same goals and outcomes as anyone else who'd never refer to themselves as disabled. Much of the challenges I experience in being accepted as an equal, as far as I can see, speak volumes more about the society around me and the ill-informed assumptions they make about me, than they do about my own capabilities. I could have achieved so much more if it weren't for all those obvious barriers dominant society erect in our way but somehow lack ability to perceive themselves. Instead, they seem so heavily focused on my perceived differences, as they see it, as the root problem that needs fixing above all else to make me acceptably 'normal' to them, and so that they can feel 'comfortable', again. Thus my failure to comply leads to their devaluation of me and their continued discomfort around me, and so this ugly vicious circle continues repeating itself.
I doubt a new word, that seeks to separate the non-disabled parts of your neurodivergent self from what might be your more support-needing areas of the same diagnosis, would fix that! Just as with with any disability category or type, really, it requires a much higher degree of awareness and understanding from society than it currently demonstrates.
You'd still potentially need to fall back on anti-disability discrimination legislation to fight any discrimination, which is defined under very broadly defined categories/areas of discrimination. I guess this is a good thing if it reduces the complexity of determining when discrimination has taken place. This would also mean accepting that you are disabled, to some extent, I think.
That said, if your new word brings you and your friends to a happier place together, then maybe that's where its true value resides! :)
I think general understanding of neurodiversity can go a long way. However, there's still many that feel no obligation to meet us in the middle. Disability legislation also has failed to protect us.. Just look at our abnormally high unemployment numbers. One of the reasons they get away with it is because they say it's not a disability issue, it's a personality issue. While a new term won't stop it, it might bring awareness to the issue.
Finally caught up on your videos.
Thank you for watching!
And yet I work in a team with an Autistic and for an AuDHDer and I prefer interaction with the alistics if I'm honest. Although I think that's more to do with a well balanced NT is preferable over messed up ND if you're working for them 🤦♂️🤷♂️. Yay work!
I think, oftentimes, a more useful framing is to extend the concept of audism to more general discrimination against minority languages, dialects, and registers.
If you look at Canadian and American residential and boarding schools as industrial centres of linguistic genocide, or the still-continuing practice of corporally punishing native Hawai'ians for speaking Hawai'ian in school, there's functionally no difference between that and audist practices like oralism (only teaching spoken language... which is actually closely related to the linguistic genocide of Indigenous "hand talk" systems), or the hiring discrimination Black Americans face for using African American English (notably unlike White Americans who appropriate features of Black language, and the ABA torture performed on Autistic people as well as the more subtle ways in which Autistic people are expeted to conform to neuronormative styles of communication.
I'm very much not a fan of legalism, but all of this does place discrimination against Autistic norms of communication firmly within existing frameworks protecting against discrimination based on national identity, at least to the extent that an Autistic national identity exists (it does, but it's closer to an edge case than we should be confortable with). Instead of working to create a whole new legal category of discrimination, it's much more efficient to work within existing frameworks.
I really appreciate this video, but as far as i'm aware, there is already a term distinct from ableism that covers this, although perhaps there is some distinction that i am failing to see, and i would be open to being corrected. That term being "sanism," as in, the discrimination against those minds which are considered by neurotypical society to be "insane." Nowadays they call them mental illnesses, or disorders, or whatever else, but the base these constructs are built on is the idea of "insanity," meaning uncleanliness, meaning they think of our minds as inherently gross and dirty, which i find lines up quite well with the way that people deemed as such are generally treated.
To give an example that really draws in to focus the distinction between sanism and ableism, i was forcibly medicated for OCD as a child, and, while there are aspects of OCD that i do find disabling, the traits that i find helpful i consider to be far more important. Not only that, the traits i find helpful are the ones which were most noticed and discriminated against by others. When i lost these traits due to the medication, i lost the function that came with them, i was made in to a less capable person, and that's without even getting in to the way that the medication made me sleep a minimum of 11 hours a day, made me feel half asleep even when i was awake, made it so much harder to move and to control my body. I was made more disabled than i was before, to a profound extent, and yet, i was discriminated against far less, people liked me, or at least they seemed to, because i was sane, or at least i seemed to be. Sanism punishes the insane for our strengths and rewards the sane for their weaknesses.
This is really interesting, thanks! It seems sanism was coined specific to acquired neurodiversity, although the theory could be used for clinical and applied as well. The principal is similar enough that I think it could encompass what I was speaking to. However, I can't see that term ever being widely adopted due to the use of "insane." It was also coined in the 60s by someone (I didn't do a deep dive so I don't know for sure) who doesn't represent the community he labeled. So yes, a label exists but I suspect most in the autistic community would reject it. It's not particularly helpful for advocacy if no one wants to use it
@@ProudlyAutistic fair points all around, especially the last one. my personal experience in lgbt spaces is that almost every word to describe us was an insult or a slur first, and that even as new insults and slurs are invented, they become reclaimed nearly instantly, so i often forget that other communities i'm in might be a little less in to the whole "reclaiming slurs" thing. then again, there is also a world-wide "mad pride" movement, so it's hard to say. at the end of the day, there's more than enough room in the world to both invent new terms which are respectful from the ground up, and reclaim old insults at the same time.
Whilst I understand that a neurodifference doesnt necessarily make you disabled, certain traits due to an individual's neurotype can prove disabling for them.
I think it's important that we acknowledge the individual's right to identify themselves as disabled because of their neurotype if they find that their neurotype causes them challenges and distress in the context in which they place themselves, regardless of how we feel about the way in which we understand disability.
Just as someone says "you cant be autistic for XYZ reason", we shouldnt be telling people "youre not disabled for XYZ" reason. Let people identify themselves.
I could have elaborated on this. Perhaps a separate video? It wasn't my intent here to say it's one or the other. Simply to state that we are also discriminated against for specific characteristics that are more inline with identity. The way I communicate and think sometimes is disabling. But there are also aspects that are just different. I have zero sense of humor for example. I wouldn't consider that a disability, even though it's due to my autism. I've definitely been penalized in the workplace for these types of traits and there's really no way to effectively fight against it from a disability perspective. We will just be told we have a bad personality. It's nuanced but I think the distinction is important as it relates to promoting policy. As I noted with the Deaf community, you can have both labels (identity and disability) from an advocacy perspective, it doesn't need to be one or the other.
@@ProudlyAutistic The way you've explained it here makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for clearing up the distinction.
I recently moved (that wasnt fun) and met my neighbor. I introduced myself and mentioned that I am autistic. Got the wombo combo of, "you dont look autistic" and "we all are a little autistic.". I just chalk it up to ignorance. People will learn, assuming they are open to learning.
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Yes discrimination, more so in the health industry. Some of them get hostile unless they already has a patient in the spectrum. Anybody else
6:49 Well, when you frame it that way, then that has the possibility of getting more traction. 😮🤔 Not sure how accommodations will be provided across different companies, especially when neurotypical people are being intolerant of neurodivergent speech patterns and stimming behavior.
Can you tell how avoid loving a neurotipical girl,as a autistic man?
Not specifically, but I can talk about red flags and boundaries. My partner of many years is autistic. I can see if hed be up for doing a relationship video with me sometime.
Thank you sister ☺️
Do women have to get over their revulsion towards spazzy guys in dating?
It's hard
I can never tell if it's my autism or my race. Probably both.
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4:44 While I agree, it's still merely splitting hairs. There are no accommodations for differences in communication styles between neurotypical and neurodivergent individuals. Ergo, that is not a good fit.
Nah. People are ignorant. If you can't communicate the way they want, they don't care. And they don't want to learn, either.
Hey, wait! Why should the "neurotypical" people be excused from thinking and communicating according to "autistic" community norms? I am not really sure that I should even make such a comment, but I just did. There it is!