The Debate: Calvinism vs. Arminianism & its Myths
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- Опубликовано: 23 июл 2024
- As requested: We're finally discussing Calvinism vs. Arminianism! This is BY NO MEANS all encompassing when it comes to the topic, but it's an introduction and explanation of the general differences between Calvinists and Arminians and where we stand.
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Once I started studying the elect, being choosen, predestination, I can't unsee it. The whole Bible is showing God making those choices.
This is new to me and my view of scripture has changed as I study which has changed my view on God. His sovereignty...I don't even really have words, it's breath taking. I do not see the "p" in tulip in scripture, I see eternal security without having to work for it. Works are great but not a requirement. Works come from our love for God.
Matthew 25:31-46
Thank you so much for this video! I was involved in a cult when I wa sin my twenties. Now that I am a Christian, I struggle with finding the "right" thing because I get fearful I will get caught up in another lie/cult. The fact that you disagree but are both so grounded in the Word is so helpful to me to not be fearful of the differences that are not core doctrine.
Loved how you both broke this complicated topic down so amazingly.
Praise the Lord!
I’m not Calvinist or Arminian, since I agree with certain things presented by each theological system. I was saved at 17 by God’s grace.
That's what I like about Molinism. I am not sure I agree with it 100%, but it doesn't ignore inconvenient verses.
I think what is more important is that these types of Bible discussions and studies bring us together through understanding rather than divide. Everything has it pros and cons. If we fight over this - obviously we have failed.
Have you guys read about the Book of Job? Will you still remain faithful to God during the end times when there are destructions and famine everywhere? Will you continue to serve God during those tough times. We serve God by serving each other. Although I do not expect end times during my lifetime, in case there is a major calamity e.g. a major hurricane we have the opportunity to show the love.
Being ready does not mean to build bunker to hide but face the calamity while serving each other. Take care!
Everything that happens in history has been decreed/Predestined before the world was created see Eph 1:11, Proverbs 16:33 and Amos 3:6. And yes even when terrible things happen, I know it's hard for some people to accept but look what happened when David sinned against God and one of Davids punishments was that God told him that he was going to use Davids own son to shame his Father by Absalom Absalom doing something immoral to his Fathers concubines in front of all of Israel, see 2 Samuel 12:11-12 God said "Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun." Notice how God said "I WILL DO THIS THING."That was fulfilled in 2 Samuel 16:21-22. Jesus did not die for every single person ever and Jesus didn't die to make people savable. He died to save his elect. In John 17:9 Jesus said that he does not pray for the world. The word world is used in different contexts, in that context he's talking about the non elect. In John 3:16 world means that he purchased people from every tribe, tongue and nation Rev 5:9 and for the children of God scattered abroad John 11:52. Some have been "long beforehand marked out for condemnation" Jude 4 and "appointed to doom." 1 Peter 2:8. About Pharaoh God said “For this VERY PURPOSE I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." Rom 9:17-18. Jesus said "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." Matthew 11:25-27. So, 2 Pet 3:9 the "not willing that any should perish" if you read that letter in context, 2 Pet 1:1 says "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours." As far as salvation for all men verses, Paul was refuting the false notion of his time that God was only desiring to save just the Jews and 1 Tim 2:2 says to pray "for kings and all who are in authority" because as humans WE DON'T KNOW WHO THE ELECT ARE SO WE PRAY FOR EVERYONE! That's what it means in verse 4 by saying "all men." Amos 3:2 God said "of all the nations of the earth I have only known you." For centuries God passed over the majority of humankind because this verse isn't about knowledge it's about relationship. And it isn't because God foresaw Israel was more righteous then the other nations because sometimes Israel was more sinful then the pagan nations see 2 Kings 21:9. Only those who were predestined to be saved will be see Acts 13:48, Ephesians 1:4-5, Eph 1:11, Romans 9:11-23, John 6:37. 1 Samuel 3:14 God said “Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.” That's Limited atonement.
I like the foggy mountain analogy. I was taught (at Bible college) it's like a 2-sided coin. On one side is God's POV and human POV is on the other. Both are true but we can only see one side at a time. the older I get the more I believe when we believers get to heaven, God will say, "Welcome home. You Methodists were wrong about that, and you Lutherans were wrong about that, and you Baptists were wrong about that, and Melissa, you were way wrong about that! But you're home now." 😀
But I enjoy the discussions in the meantime!
Amen ❤️ my beautiful mother, who is in her 70's and loves God so much has no patience for these debates anymore lol
Her response is now is "There's nothing in the Bible about God having some kind of antechamber when we get to Heaven where we all have to sit down and get our Theology straightened out to enter. No, we'll be too busy worshipping Him... and we'll all be doing it together and we will be surprised by many of the people we'll see when we get there. Please pass the peas." (Yes, that was family dinner recently 😄😄😄)
I love this! I was raised as a Catholic until my parents divorced when I was 15 yrs. old. I then walked to a methodist church that was close to my house. I married a Baptist. He no longer goes to church regularly because of his work schedule and distance, and now I attend a independent Baptist Church. And my church family is always always "throwing off" on Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterians, Nazarenes, Church of Christ, you name it, they throw off on it, and it really really bothers me. So much so I have asked them in Bible Studies to stop. Just stop.
I’m so glad you guys are so open about not always agreeing but still having a God centered marriage!
😁
They are setting the good example.
I was really impressed by how you two didn't demonize either side of the debate. We should definitely love other Christians who disagree with us on these sorts of issues.
Thanks and Amen!
Did Jesus love the pharisees? I'd say he did BUT, he wasn't nice to them! A lot of the time, people who don't believe in free will are under the influence of religious demons! And, sometimes, they aren't saved! They're modern day pharisees! Stay away!
Unfortunately those other “Christians” believe and teach doctrines of demons and should be excommunicated. Calvinism is demonic, and Joseph Arminius was a Calvinist. They are two sides to the same counterfeit coin and both stand in opposition to the Bible. Satan hides as an angel of light and likewise his ministers disguise themselves as servants of righteousness and in the end will be judged according to their works, for they have no faith.
@@JonathanGrandt Don't you think you're being rather harsh in your assessment? You can disagree with religious teachings without concluding that the teachings are demonic.
@@JonathanGrandt this is so far off. Maybe read the debate between Calvin and Arminius?
Love when you guys do a video together. Thank you for explaining this so well.
Thank you so much for taking the time film this! I leaned a lot about Calvinism. Y'all explained the major differences very well.
Glad it was helpful!
I think Mike Winger talks really well about Arminianism and Calvinism. He does talk about Calvinism more and does disagree with that, but I think he is amazing at representing them well, being incredibly respectful, and explaining why he disagrees with them (though he would not classify himself as an Arminian).
This video shocked me… in the best way possible! The Lord has shown my husband and I the beauty of reformed theology! Also, God’s sovereignty in salvation is unmistakable. Thank you for sharing these beautiful doctrines. My husband and I met in the “Word of Faith” movement. Our 9 year old is named Faith. But now, we see faith biblically (in a way that elevates Jesus). The core of faith is the grace of God at work in our hearts urging us to trust him for initial salvation as well as lifelong sanctification for ourselves, our children and for all those who will believe. What a blessing to be able to trust him for the work which we in and of ourselves are incapable of ever doing. May you be blessed with grace to glorify the one who deserves all praise, glory and adoration!
Thanks for sharing!
Now we need a break down of provisionism vs Calvinism 😊
I have yet to hear a Calvinist represent Provisionists correctly. But I'd love to see it.
Such a good video. Just wondered if my understanding is at all biblical. I have always believed that God is sovereign and that he does choose us. However, I have also likened it to me as a parent knowing my child. I absolutely know what colour toy my child will choose out of a number of different options even though I won't be telling them what to pick. So I can fully know the choice without interfering with their free will to choose. I believe that because God knows us sooooo deeply, beyond our understanding or experience, he is sovereign and knows what we will choose but can still allow us our freewill. His knowledge of our choices does not remove our ability to choose differently.
Excellent analogy
You are right in that God knows what we are going to choose however because we are dead in our trespasses we have no ability to choose life or good. That is why it is said that no one does good no one seeks God. As well as The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually… from his youth.
God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
So in this verse it not only talks about how God is the one granting repentance but also talks about what our desires are.
So where your analogy fails is that as a parent yes you know what your child does choose as God knows every choice we will make. However because we are evil and we are captured buy the devil to do his will we don’t have the power in and of ourselves to change our own hearts.
Just like in Jeremiah Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil.
So then we understand that God knows every choice we make but our choices are evil and in rebellion to his reign so God in his mercy does a work in us and changes our hearts to then choose God
We cannot come to him unless he chooses us because if it were up to our free will the Bible explains countless time that we would choose to do what is known to our nature that which is sin.
This was, as always, very well presented and thought provoking. Thank you for tackling the hard subjects when so many shy away from them.
You are welcome!
This is something I have been diving into and wrestling with and such so I'm totally here for this video!!!
I really needed this . Such a powerful video
You both inspired me to dig deeper into this topic. I would love to see a video with both of you again debating the differences you mentioned. Thanks and God bless
Thanks so much for sharing. This was great to watch and understand this topic better. God bless!
You are so welcome!
Thank you both for explaining this! I'm still trying figure this out for myself. At the end of the day I trust God with people's salvation.
Watch this - How To Be Saved From Hell (The Only Way To Heaven)
You'll find it on the following channel - Onorato Diamante
I look forward to these videos. Thank you for doing them.
You are welcome!
This was amazing. Simplified and understandable for someone who isn't a theologian! Thanks so much Faith and Joe!
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you for clearly explaining the differences. It is so helpful to understand. 😊
Hi Dawn . Please consider watching the following -
How To Be Saved From Hell (The Only Way To Heaven )
You'll find it on the following you tube channel - Onorato Diamante
Thank you for explaining this. We went to a non-denominational church and they hired a new youth pastor. About a year later the church split into two since it turns out the youth pastor was teaching Calvinism. The youth pastor started a new church and most of the families with teens followed him. I never really understood what caused the split.
What causes a split is that certain philosophies and practices follow the theology. If I believe the person has to be convinced to choose Jesus, very often church embraces methods to get this to happen emotionally.
This was honestly really good. No one really brings this up and is able to keep the intention on God's will like this in the midst of theological differences.
I do come from an Arminian background and my question has always been " If I happen to not be a part of the elect, why wasn't I chosen?"
The way I have had it explained to me is that all are called and that those who respond to God's initiative are then the chosen, the elect. This also points to the scriptures about making your election sure.
That is precisely the problem. Under Calvinism You CANNOT choose to come to faith on your own. See my analysis above.
Fantastic viseo! Best explanation I've heard...super easy to understand. You compliment each other so well. I also appreciate the fact that you point out that we can have differences in opinion on this and still be united as a family of believers. ❤️
Wow, thank you! Praise God!
I have never heard of Calvinism/Arminianism... but... I don't see how someone could honestly believe God of the Bible purposefully created some to be destined to go to hell. His perfect will is that all be saved, but not all will by their own rejection of God's plan of salvation through the CROSS! Just because God KNOWS some will, and KNOWS other will not, that does not mean He designed it to be that way right from the start. He does not create us to be FORCED to repent. We either do or we don't. He said He is not willing that any perish, even though some will perish by their rejecting Him as Saviour. What scripture do they believe is saying God created certain ones to be destined go to hell? That is like saying these are unsaveable... like the Cross, the Blood was not enough for them. ????
Nice breakdown! Sincerely thought that by saying the Sinner's Prayer, I'd be saved. All it did was keep me in a state of no assurance, full of fear, and a weight on MY shoulders. Thankfully, my salvation story points straight to the work of God and is not at all about a decision that was made (by me). It shows that God is in control and that I am not at all to be glorified by my choice. This will always be a point of contention amongst believers, but SO appreciate how you two respectfully shared this topic.
Thank you!
I really appreciate this, because I have a friend who believes Calvinism is a cult, and she and her husband were willing to completely leave our very Gospel-solid Sunday school class because we were starting a Revelation study based on Matt Chandler's sermon series. It blew my mind that she was that angry and bitter about Calvinism. I also went to Bible college, and we learned about Calvinism and Arminianism, but I fall somewhere in between. I have respect for Calvinists like Chandler and Piper. I also adore Graham. I also trust my home church and my teachers, and I have heard Chandler's Revelation series and I know that it is a deep-dive into scripture and not a blueprint for Calvinism. She had a very "cut it off if I don't agree with it" attitude, so I really love that you showed how there can be theological disagreements between loved ones, and you can still love each other, fellowship together, and serve alongside each other.
My friend has since left our church altogether and sent me many, many, MANY text messages outlining what is inherently "wrong" with my church, and it's very hurtful and upsetting. I don't think any part of my church is cult-like for reading a Piper book or quoting Matt Chandler. That's extreme.
I’m not clear exactly, are you Calvinist? I’ve just come out of a reformed church.
I live with someone like that. Anything other than their view is a heretic and part of a cult. It's heartbreaking the degree of hatred and venom. The lack of love & forgiveness towards other biblically sound Christians who happen to have a different view of how it works is distressing, and spiritually dangerous to the person holding onto those grudges. 💔
This video was refreshing to me to see how a close family team can choose to work together, love and respect one another while still disagreeing about these types of issues.
If Calvinism is wrong, then it is absolutely dangerous teaching. I think this couple is in a position where they are yoked for life and are trying to make a way to disagree peacefully, but that doesn't mean your friend is "extreme." Your friend is trying to warn you about false doctrines because they make God the author of evil. She is doing that out of love for you. Not because she hates John Piper. She knows that what Calvinists teach is not trustworthy (the gentleman in this video even says it- THE LENS THROUGH WHICH THEY VIEW SCRIPTURE). Bad theology hurt people and causes them to stumble. As a believer, you out to take that very seriously. Christ came not to bring peace but a sword. We as His bride have a responsibility to stand up for the truth and call out lies. Calvinism has resurged and been defeated multiple times in history. You are experiencing just another resurgence. Please don't be ignorant. Stand firm in the faith.
Thank you for sharing! Love the insight and perspective from both of you!
I would love to hear the different perspectives on creation though 🥰🤔
Love and blessings from Johanne, Norway 🇳🇴
This video is coming at the perfect time for me. Though we all grew up with Baptist doctrine, a few people in my close circle have since started following more Reformed theology, and I've become really curious about it lately.
When I was younger, I had friends who really struggled with worry that they were not elect and ended up rejecting God because they thought He had rejected them. This has always made me wary of Calvinism.
When my girls were younger, 4 and 5, my husband and I were really into Sunday afternoon football. I was a Patriot fan and my husband was a Cowboy fan. Before the game started, the girls were standing in front of the TV watching the teams come out, the 4 year old said she thought that Dallas was going to win the game and the 5 year old said, No the Cowboys were going to win. This went back and forth for about 3 volleys and it was fixing to get physical. I was giggling in the kitchen over this argument, but had to jump into action to break it up. Long conversation about how they were on the same team. This video reminded me of that day and how we are all on the same team. 💯❤
I was telling God last night how beautiful and knowledgeable I think you are! I was LOOOOOL @ the shirt being "too tight in the sleeves" 🤣 I always learn a lot from you guys thanks for the videos!
She is very beautiful and knowledgeable!
😂😂😂
Thank you both for this video. It was very informative.
Your son is so cute.
I believe I'm saved God is in control. I'm not concerned about how it happened. I will just live right and share the gospel and one day when I meet God I will know the truth about it all!
Hi Hadassah. Please consider watching the following video -
How To Stop From Going To Hell (The Only Way To Heaven )
You'll find it on the following you tube channel - Onorato Diamante
FAITH❣️I'm so glad you did this video. I new I liked you, now even more. From a very young age I had a real distaste for people arguing over what I now in my adult life learned to define as secondary and terciary beliefs just as you mentioned. Anytime I witnessed it among believers something churned in my stomach. Years ago I began to follow someone who inspired me to grow in my prayer life with more intentionally having a prayer journal/ faith or war binder....I was reading through the Bible with her which she sometimes read commentaries that were very good in my op. to go along with. It helped me stay more consistent but lately as she began to go to a new church her commentary has become more and more her personal commentary and criticism of other churches pastors, speakers that differ with her churches views. I understand that we need to be discerning of false teachings but now the reading has taken second place to her commenting and calling people out because of this or that belief. I have a problem with people speaking ill about "the church" in general terms because I have seen how it affects the ability or desire of an unbeliever who hears this constant bashing to approach toward "the church" if they hear others bad mouthing "the church" they get the idea that church is not worth it. I think unity of the body would be more appealing to the world…. Anyway I was doing so well + since Jan… had read from Matt. to Acts with this channel daily. That's where is went down hill. I tried and tried but could not continue. I was just feeling irritated with the continuous disparaging "side notes". Oh well if thats how she feels that's the new purpose for her channel and how she is growing her faith that's fine but I sadly have to go elsewhere and will pray for her. I have been looking for another channel to follow with bible reading because I need the "accountability" or a consistent plan. Sorry so long. I don't know if I was clear but you show a great example of respect loving, honoring or respecting other fellow believers ( your husband) even with differing views. Blessings
Very well done kids. Blessings to all!!❤️🔥🙏❤️🔥
Ooh I love this topic! I watched a sermon where the pastor said that both views are biblical, predestination is salvation from God's point of view, and yet from our point of view we have to choose Him too. Romans 9 is one of the chapters that includes both points of view! We can't comprehend from our perspective and human brain how these two are compatible, but they both are in the Bible, so we have to trust God and believe that they're true even if we don't fully understand ❤️
What you've described is not "both views." It's just pure Calvinism, rightly understood.
Hi Mir . Please consider watching the following -
How To Be Saved From Hell (The Only Way To Heaven)
You'll find it on the following you tube channel -
Onorato Diamante.
Thanks for making this!! You both did a great job explaining the two viewpoints. And I love how you guys don't have to think the same things about everything--that's great. Like you said, some things are secondary or tertiary and people have their own opinions and it's so wrong to say that if someone doesn't think like I do, they aren't a Christian. I hate that kind of intolerance. You guys are great examples in not being that way!!
Thank you!
@@HowtoFaithALife You're welcome!!
Just this day I've decided to look on the internet about calvanism since it has been a hot topic in our family. But I got confused and I do have a lot of question. I'm actually in our church today but our Senior Pastor is not present so I have no one to ask (even my mentor isn't here) and I'm honestly hesitant to look on the internet because I might got deceived but there you are! I was just watching one of your video when I decide to scroll down and thenn daannn dannnn I've found this! I haven't watch it yet so I'll just say Glory to God for using you and your channel to speak through me! 😊 GODBLESS!
Praise the Lord!
Thank you for this video and explaining the differences more thoroughly. I am up Southern Baptist Armenian, so definitely had my pre-conceived ideas about Calvinists before this explanation. And yes, I know other denominations criticize Southern Baptist for some of our doctrines. Also, so great you two can respect each other's different viewpoints.
Thanks Cyndi!
Amen! I love how we can disagree on some things and still be united in Christ! THIS is how the Church should be! When Jesus comes back, He'll be looking for faith not labels. 🙏🏼✝️❤️
From a 5 point family I think you described limited atonement excellently. Thank you Pastor
It would be great to see y’all have discussion with Dr Flowers of Soteriology 101 Channel.
Thanks for mentioning Dr. Flowers. I had never heard of him before and I want to educate myself more on this topic. Watching one of his videos with Mike Winger about Calvinism now. I see he also has a debate video with James White, should be good!
My husband is hardcore Calvinist. I’m Cal-minian 😉🤪. I can’t get over limited atonement. We both grew up very Arminian (sp?)
We have been hashing it out for a few years but it’s never been a point of contention or frustration. I hate when people screech “heretic!” at the other side because it is NOT a salvation issue.
😂😂😂
Beautifully navigated!! The saving knowledge of Jesus Christ is the most important part ❤
This video helped me so much
Thanks!
Love this video! Thank you for explaining this. Every time I try to order a shirt it tells me my address is not valid. 🙃
I appreciate the explanations and views you shared. I understand the fore knowledge of God more from an Arminian view I think. God like a parent understands how our minds work just like a parent understands how their child’s mind works. I can often watch my child and know what they are about to do. It doesn’t mean I’m choosing the actions for them but that I know what they are doing.
My favorite part of the video is the statements about our unity and on Christ the cross and resurrection! Love you Brother and Sister! God bless
Thank you for the video! Gonna have to watch it a few times more to truly grasp. Think is can definitely be a heavy topic. also, i couldnt help it, but i had to google. Minimize means to make smaller, to reduce. Minimalize means to make less of something. :D
Over 10 years I transitioned to a limited atonement view after having diligently studied John Owen’s The Death of Death in the death of Christ.
Y'all explained this so thoroughly and gracefully 😊 it's always fun to share knowledge on non essential matters in Scripture with other believers, I personally wonder if the answer is somewhere in between Calvinism and Arminianism, because scripture seems to support points on both sides. I wonder, do Calvinists feel the same way about the subject of producing works as a result of our faith? Is it all God's sovereignty again or do they think we have some part of responsibility? I'm just curious because as I said before I'm somewhere in the middle and that causes me to ask other questions😅
Yes, Calvinists do. But not in a way that adds to our salvation. :)
@@josephwomack4683 that makes sense! Thank you!
There is a guy/teacher Leighton Flowers that describes the somewhere between the two as Provisionism.
@@naturallycurly2384 Actually, Leighton Flowers is a semi-Pelagian, which is to the Libertarian Free Will side of Arminianism. And, according to the majority of historical Christianity, it is a heresy.
@naturallycurly 2. The movement that is generally considered between Arminianism and Calvinism is called Amyraldism, which is fairly similar to (Baptist) Dispensationalism and sometimes identified as 4-point Calvinism (they don't accept Limited Atonement).
Thank you for this video Faith and Joe!
Does anyone have examples of verses from both sides of the debate?
Hi Madison . Please consider watching the following video -
How To Stop From Going To Hell (The Only Way To Heaven)
You'll find it on the following you tube channel - Onorato Diamante
I really love hearing these types of christian debates. I recommend you read Grace in the Gray: how to disagree in a loving way. It’s really great! Talks about why God chose to weave gray into our lives. Such as having dusk instead of it going immediately from day to night.
Really appreciate the perspective of husband and wife that disagree on some secondary issues.
Love the spirit of this video, and your goal of "mediating" this debate somewhat. I'd also add that these aren't necessarily the only 2 alternatives. As an example, Karl Barth wrote very much from within the Reformed tradition, but he re-interpreted its idea of election in a way he considered much more Christocentric -- e.g., I'd say he kept "unconditional election" but didn't see the atonement as in any way "limited," and he emphasized that, in a sense, creation has only ever existed "in" Christ (in line with texts like Col 1:15-20). For anyone not familiar with this perspective, I'd recommend his very short books _Christ and Adam_ and _The Humanity of God_ .
Loved this. I think people miss that point sometimes, that’s it’s the core tenets of the Gospel/Jesus, where there ‘has to be’ agreement. So many of the other issues people debate are peripheral, and are non-essential to Salvation.
I’d love to see more videos with the two of you discussing other areas where your beliefs differ (as mentioned). Thanks for sharing!
So I have never heard of either of these terms and I am a follower, very interesting.
Great conversation. Thanks for sharing your heart.
Have you considered the Calvinist and Armenian views of those individuals that have shown the fruit of the Spirit or fruit of a saving work (grace) in their lives and have fallen away from the faith?
Great channel!! Pastor, keep preaching brother. It is a blessing to see a husband and wife well equipped for the ministry.
I'm curious, what disagreement do you have with creationism?
I grew up Arminian, though only heard about the Calvinism/Arminian difference about 8 years ago and just changed my thinking to more Calvinism less than a year ago. I simply tell my children that salvation happened when God changed my heart to allow the Holy Spirit to convict me of my sin and gave me the faith to believe in Jesus. On my own, I was capable of neither.
As an Arminian I wrestled with 3 thoughts:
-God clearly chose specific people in the Old Testament and caused some to have hardened hearts. If God is able to do that in the OT, he can in the NT.
-If I can choose God, then I can I choose him. Yet the Bible says that God keeps his people and doesn’t let any fall away. The two concepts don’t line up.
-If God is sovereign, he can accomplish all he wills. If he wills all to my to heaven, all will. Yet we know from scripture not all will. If I have the power to not choose God, that would make me sovereign over God.
Just my thoughts. I don’t entirely understand it all, nor do I necessarily agree with the thought of God choosing some people and not choosing others. But there’s a lot in the Bible I wouldn’t agree with-the way Jesus had to die (I wouldn’t have chosen such a brutal death), how I’m called to forgive someone who hurts me over and over again, how God co-ops kill everyone except Noah and family in the flood, etc. yet as a Christ follower I CHOOSE to believe all of the Bible and follow it, whether or not I agree with it or not.
This part I struggle to understand then with your last point is, how is God perfectly just and even perfectly loving to will some to be saved and some not? How does His other characteristics fit with Calvinism?
Love the video and discussion from both sides! I’d say I’m in the middle of both. I feel people do have a choice by the free will God has bestowed on us but I also believe no one’s coming to God unless He softens their hearts and moves within their spirit. At that point it’s the person’s choice if they want to reject Him or not
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”
Revelation 3:20 KJV
I’m intrigued about your differences on creation and would love you to share if you are comfortable doing so.
Just want to know why you have a hashtag of #706? What does it mean please?
Can you please make a video on provisionism ( from Leighton Flowers)
Here is how I believe. We are given a choice. Then we must repent, accept Jesus, and be baptized. I believe Jesus died on the cross for all our sins. I believe in the Holy Trinity. We must live the way Jesus wants us to live, attend a church that follows the Bible (not make up what they want you to believe), read the Bible, and Love the Lord God with all that we are, and share the word of God with everyone. We are not to Judge, but if someone is doing something that they shouldn't do, we can gently without being mean explain what the Bible says on the subject. Always, always be kind. I hope no one is offended by this post. This is just how I believe.
In discussing this with my Husband he said “ They are both saying the same thing , just don’t know it “ lol he has gone to the same baptist church since he was 9 yrs old, now he’s 62, but when asked , he’s a Christian who goes to a baptist church. Our church is part of the sourthen baptist convention but really is more relaxed. I was a late Bloomer didn’t start learning about Christianity til I was 17, and then I started in the Mormon church. I couldn’t hole heartedly believe in that religion because of too many rules ? And they told me to tuck in my Cross necklace under my shirt, they didn’t believe in the cross, they believe Jesus died on a stake . Anyway I learned more from the TV Evangelist show PTL , yes I know all the wrong things that went on there. But I always knew about God growing up, the right and wrong, I would see my parents faces in front of me if I was going to do something , I now know that was God using my parents as him so I would understand and respect them and not want to disappoint them/Him. I finally Got Baptized at age 35 in our Church . I Thought I would share this with you.
Thank you for sharing!!
Though I’ve still yet to label myself “Calvinist”, the thought that God would choose me and call me out of all my sin humbles me. I don’t believe in anyway that someone should be “puffed up” if they were chosen or elected or predestined it should humble us.
Your son is adorable, God bless him💕
Limited Atonement is like Bridge over a River.
The Arminian Bridge is very wide, but only reaches across half the river.
The Calvinist Bridge is very narrow, but actually reaches the other side of the river. It actually reaches the other bank.
I just realized that my pastor is coming from an Arminian standpoint while I have been lead more and more to believe in the Calvinistic viewpoint. (Thank you Faith for making this video)
And, depsite what was said, I believe Calvinist and Arminian can have an important salvation question at hand.
For example, I have been struggling deeply with what my pastor has taught directly to me, to the point that yes, he says I can loose my salvation.
He has compared me to Saul in the past and it has really hurt (i.e a man anointed by God to be a leader who lost his salvation by going his own way "the Spirit of the Lord departed from Him"). I now question every desire I have, every want and fear with me looking away from Christ and into my own perimeters to live by.
To say it's been petrifying is an understatement (I even feel a cold chill down the top of my head which used to happen to me prior to a panic attack).
I really don't know what to do, it seems that my pastor knows me best and has called me out on my bad behaviour in the past (in sin I had not yet understood or acknowledged) so my confidence on his leadership runs deep, but ultimately, despite it helping me pray against my earthly desires it has literally stripped me of my joy in Christ.
I pray that I am not opening myself up too much and doing the right thing by pleading for prayer, but I really need it right now.
Lord help me, 😢🙏🏻💜
Well I will flat out say that your pastor is wrong. There is nothing that can separate us from the love of Christ Jesus our Lord. Remember in 1 John They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
So here it shows that if they were with us they would have continued in the faith. That is the beauty of the gospel is that it is Theo centric meaning God accomplishes it it is not up to us to maintain our salvation Christ said it is finished. If someone falls away the verse above stats it is because they were never saved to begin with
John 10:28. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand
We don’t even know if Saul was saved or not the Holy Spirit operated differently before the cross. The Holy Spirit wasn’t 24/7 inside of believers that is why the disciples were called to go the place where then they would receive the Holy Spirit. In the OT we see that the Holy Spirit did fall upon people like Samson and David but it wasn’t a sign of there salvation it was a sign of God’s anointing not how it is in the New Testament
2 Corinthians 1 22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and nhas anointed us, 22 and who has also oput his seal on us and pgiven us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee
God wants us to be assured of our salvation
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life
So from the moment we become saved we pass from death to life not when we finally die and go to heaven because after all where was satan when he sinned. God’s keeps his sheep from the moment you are saved till eternity.
There is no fear in love, but dperfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not abeen perfected in love.
I do not know you or the fruit of your life but if you have repented of your sins and trusted in Christ then you are saved. Idk if you are not saved and God is convicted you or if you are truly under attack by the enemy. From your story it seems the latter. If I were you I would go to the scriptures look at the promises of God and cleave to them because there is much to fear if God were not for us. But because God is for us who can be against us. Trust me if I could lose my salvation I would. But because God has saved me and promised to keep me I have hope and no reason to fear.
Somebody told me the other day that Baptists, especially Southern Baptists, are Calvinists. I said that was news to me since I've been in Southern Baptist churches my entire life and have never been a part of a Calvinist congregation.
@GracefulAnnie *GrcflAnnie* From their very beginnings in England, Baptists have been divided up into Particular Baptists and General Baptists. The former being Reformed (Calvinistic) and the latter being Arminian. Along the way, the huge majority became what is known as Dispensational. In the past couple of decades, the Reformed have made a resurgence, and some say they now make up about a quarter of the SBC. Be that as it may, most of the rest are still Dispensationalists.
@@ericcarlson9885 Thanks for the explanation. There is a Reformed Baptist Church not far from my house, but I've never visited it.
Could you do a video about your belifs for creation?
As a Calvinists myself, I must say the distinctions made between Calvinism and Arminianism in this video are spot on!
If I choose Christ with my free will then become saved because of it... Do I have free will to change my mind and reject Christ therefore become unsaved? How many times can I choose then un-choose Christ in my life?
Hebrews 6:4- answers that question
@@jerardosc9534 Thanks... Do you believe this supposed person mentioned was truly regenerated from the start ?
What we get confused on many times is the English language of salvation. In Scripture you won’t find “accepted Jesus into your heart” or anything that has to do with the heart but the language of the scripture comes the easiest in John 3 where we become born again or regenerated. Ezekiel 37 is a perfect chapter to indicate exactly what happens in Salavation. It doesn’t start with us at all but starts with God.
Thank you!
Hi Peter . Please consider watching the following video -
How To Stop From Going To Hell (The Only Way To Heaven)
You'll find this on the following you tube channel - Onorato Diamante
How do you handle the differences you have while doing ministry together? Do the people in your church know about them? Do you openly discuss them? Is it ever an issue? I ask because my husband who is also a pastor, and I have differences in this area and one reason I'm reluctant to start a church ourselves is the question on how would we handle those differences.
Just because God knows what will happen doesn't mean that He controls our decisions. It is in God's will that EVERYONE is saved but unfortunately we do have a choice in it and many will parish because they didn't choose God.
Hi Carol. What do you think about verses that teach that we are dead to and slaves to sin?
Do you think we can make ourselves alive to God by choosing Him?
@@sivemtshakazana Jesus is the only way to break the chains of sin. God will make Himself known to everyone in their lives. Whether they choose to follow Him or not is up to them. We broke the law and Jesus paid the fine, but we have to accept that gift of eternal life.
@@Meisha1965 Correct!! Thank you for making that addition :)
This line of reasoning falls so short of biblical truth. It inevitably results in calling God impotent because he cannot provide convincing enough evidence to save everyone, either that or it is his sovereign will to display his glory through wrath towards some and love towards others
Ridiculous! Unless you become as a little child...? Keep it simple! Only religious demons make things complicated
I know you know you do this 'cause you mentioned it before LOL! but I watch a video with you interviewing Pastor Joe and watch him sit thre while you explain what he's trying to say LOL! I don't have laughing emojis or I'd have a bunch here LOL! he just sits so patiently
Thanks for a good picture of what true Christian love should look like. There does seem to be a lot of division and demonizing today and I'm afraid it takes the true focus off of Christ. I commend you both and pray for the best for you and your family. Love In Christ,
A thankful brother ❤
Romans 9 really shines light on this topic
9:10 really illuminated
I’ve always kind of viewed the debate like this… calvinists have a bird’s eye view of God’s sovereignty and see the whole picture of the culmination of everyone’s choices to believe over ALL TIME! Whereas, Arminians have a more present “feet on the ground” view of the decisions being made here and now. This perspective is definitely flawed, but it helped me conceptualize the differences. I really can’t say one is better than the other, because both have sound arguments in my opinion. I’m still really new to studying theology, so grace in this area is needed haha
Based on my experience, I had to answer the knock by asking Him to help before I saw a change and He saved me 100%.
What's your view on creation?
Y’all should do a video on once saved always saved! I feel like different denominations see this differently
Eg: can you be erased from the Lamb’s book of life?
if a once saved person deliberately rejects the Holy Spirit later on in their life, and chooses sin and fleshly desires, can they still go to heaven? Or what are the consequences when someone who is saved abuses God’s grace?
Yes, that's the P in TULIP, perseverance of the saints. Calvinists believe in once saved always saved.
@@PolymorphicPenguin thank you! I was wondering what that meant! On the P, I suppose I am a Calvinist! (But not on the topic of presdestination). After all, the Bible does say that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit when saved:)
Yes, perseverance of the saints! We were thinking that this point is more widely accepted, but I want to dive in a little closer and look at the subtle differences within denominations, thanks!
Hi Nikayla . Please consider watching the following video -
How To Stop From Going To Hell (The Only Way To Heaven)
You'll find this on the following you tube channel - Onorato Diamante
@@balletktmc Hi Katie . Please consider watching the following video -
How To Stop From Going To Hell (The Only Way To Heaven)
You'll find this on the following you tube channel - Onorato Diamante
Thank you, that was helpful. What about the perseverance of the saints, though? You didn't discuss that point.
Yes, you’re right. We figured that most people knew more about this point and that it’s more widely accepted than the other 4 points of Calvinism. We will probably dive into this point more at some point!
It’s false teaching, read Gal 5:19-21, 1 Tim 5:11-12
"For by grace you have been saved through faith..." Saved through faith. Through faith of the believer. The believer/Us.... ,We have a choice. We have free will. We do not save ourselves but we have free will to choose to become a believer by God's grace.
I've found "What Love Is This?" by Dave Hunt and "Soteriology 101" videos to be essential resources about this topic.
I believe we can open the door to Jesus, based on what He says in Revelation 3:20.
New King James Version
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
Yes, but to truly hear His voice, God is doing the initial work in us, otherwise we would reject His voice, the knock, and never open the door.
This text is about people who are already believers (the church), and not the nonbeliever.
Faith: Speaking
Joseph: staring into my soul! 😳
😬
I had an allergic reaction to something and was deep in the prednisone cycle when this was filmed 😂😂
Where we are depraved?pls explain.
So your favorite team is playing in a championship game but you can’t watch it live. You record it to view later. Throughout the day people spoil it for you and tell you the outcome of the game and even some of the highlights. Now when you watch the game, does your knowledge of what happens change the players choices in how they play the game?
LOL Joe's product placement "tight in the sleeves, loose in the stomach" I honestly don't think we can understand where they meet. There are many Bible verses supporting each position.
It takes too much crafting to make the gears of calvinistic or Armenian doctrine twist and turn to fit the scripture. This quote says it all-
'The Gospel message is so simple, it takes someone else to help you misunderstand it.'
As one raised in the Church of the Nazarene, I can tell you those who ascribe to Arminian doctrine do not object to Calvinists because they think they're better than us because they're part of "the chosen," as if it is some sort of elite club. First, they object to Calvinists over the doctrine of _free will._ They don't believe God wants automatons who have no choice but to love Him. That's why Adam was given a choice in the first place, and why sin entered the world. God has given himself one limit he will not cross - free will. It's the only thing God cannot do, because it violates his own principle of love. You would not want to marry a spouse who had no choice but to say yes to your proposal. In the same way, Christ did not die to save people who had no choice but to love him. His sacrifice would then be in vain. There are so many simpler ways to create automatons. He died to take sin, which separates us from God, out of the equation so that we can once again choose to love God. The Holy Spirit is integral to the equation, for sure. Just as a woman cannot marry a man who never asks, we cannot respond to God's love if the Holy Spirit does not draw us to him. Second, they object to the fact that Calvinists often seem to deny the work of the Holy Spirit after salvation, namely sanctification. Many Calvinists hold to the idea that "you sin every day in word, thought, and deed." So the only apparent difference between Christians and heathens is that Christians are sinners who were chosen to be spared their due penalty. This principle denies the fundamental work of the Holy Spirit. Once God's offer of salvation has been accepted, the Holy Spirit begins the work of perfecting us, conforming us to the image God had in mind for us in the first place. As new believers, we are no longer slaves to sin (Rom 6:1-10, 1Pe 2:24), but this is a process that takes place over time. The more we practice righteousness, the better we get at it. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to guide us through and complete that process (Phl 1:6). God's foreknowledge of our decision to follow him, to accept his salvation does not preclude our free will. But because he foreknew our decision, he determined to complete the work in us, and conform us to the image of Christ. That is the meaning of predestination in Rom 8:29-30. God foreknew all things, because he is omniscient, and the testimony of that is fulfilled prophecy. That he foreknew us, however, does not mean he forced us into a relationship we had no choice in, which is what an Arminian would think of when he hears the words "irresistible grace." Our free will choice does not mean, though, that we did any work to attain salvation. All the work was done by God, through his Son Jesus on the cross, and through the Holy Spirit.
You forgot that there is also a Lutheran understanding of this topic, in summary salvation is 100% of God but if you go to hell it's your own fault.
I grew up Lutheran and was wondering which side of the fence they were on. Still find it all confusing. I mostly stick to reading the bible these days, not so much attending church.
@@donnanorris4733
The book of concord clears things up but of course reading the bible is the most important source of doctrine, I encourage you to fellowship with other believers and take the Lord's supper regularly it builds and strengthens our faith at least it does mine, God bless.
Yes haha. These debates including provisionism and the eucharist is part of how I discovered what lutheranism is and decided to convert.
Thank you for touching upon this important and difficult subject!! I have been struggling with these two theologies and this video is helping me in my understanding. Quick question by the way, what Bible college did you guys attend?
What a nice video, watching this perhaps I am more arminian than I thought. I grew up hypercalvinistic so perhaps I drifted too much haha. But I believe as a calvinist you can really say that someone did something in their salvation, as the canons of Dordt say: And then the will, now renewed, is not only activated and motivated by God, but in being activated by God is also itself active. For this reason, people themselves, by that grace which they have received, are also rightly said to believe and to repent. (Ch 3/4, art 12)
for more understanding on Soteriology - checkout channels "Beyond the Fundamentals" and "Soteriology101"
Faith, what is your denomination?
if Chosen leads to pride you don't understand what it means.
Both views are correct in different ways. Yes, we're predestined but yes, we do choose to accept or reject Jesus. God knows who will accept Him or not. I don't think it's an either/or matter. It's a blend of both ideas, both of which are accurate.