The "Other Jesus" Story That Scares Christians: Apollonius of Tyana
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- Apollonius of Tyana is said to be a LOT like Jesus according to skeptics like Bart Ehrman, Richard Carrier, Robert Price and their many followers. Let's examine this supposed parallel in detail today.
As a hard-core Atheist to the bone I have one thing I'd like to say to you Mike. You are _exactly_ the kind of Pastor and a Christian I wished there was more of. Honest intellectual guy who are open to critics, goes straight at the source, fight fire with fire - debunk Atheists who debunks you.... Fantastic! :D
And I learned a lot, so thanks!
Wow man. That’s very encouraging. Thank you!
@@MikeWinger I've been debating blockheads throwing bible verses at me and quotes from other peoples, because they don't have a single thought, or opinion of their own, when I want an honest debate. Total sheep. Or they are trying stupid tactics, word games, and other less honest tricks, rather than just... have an effing honest discussion! It's actually been a fair while since I've seen an intellectual honest Christian on youtube having shown courage to face Atheists head on like you did here, and I LOVED IT.
It's not a matter of winning a debate, but about _The Truth._ This one was yours.
I only care about The Truth. So when I say _"show me the evidence" _ and you presented it, - I'm gleeful. :)
Thanks again Mr. Winger.
@@Jokl92 As a former Christian/believer as most mature Atheists are, I've read the bible cover to cover twice. My father was an educated theologian, and Mike reminds me of my dad, as he too was a very open, intellectual wise man I had many good discussions with, about biblical, as well as religious history, theology and philosophy. I do believe Mr. Winger would easily be up for the same challenge, though he's much younger than my now deceased father.
But to put in a slightly different perspective; _I know perfectly well why I'm an Atheist and not a Christian or a believer._
So The Ten Minute Bible Hour sounds like biblical lecture, and I didn't know who Mike was, nor that this was a religious channel when I clicked on it. I love religious history, and saw the title of the video, and found it intriguing and interesting, so I wanted to find out more. I don't care if it's a Christian website as long as it's a neutral one. I had serious doubts though, but Mike did a damn good job, and made me very glad.
@@ingebygstad9667 ah, okay, I see. Yes, TenMinuteBibleHour does a lot of Bible teaching but the reason I started watching him was because he also studied history and talks a lot about the background to the Bible.
But maybe it's not your cup of tea and that's fine ;)
Have a good day mate!
@@Jokl92 To you as well Jokel. :)
I have recently finished my first semester of college where I was required to take a “religion” course. I took one regarding the interplay between community and scripture. Most of the semester, we read excerpts from Bart Erhman, and Apollonius was used many times as an example to show that Jesus was “just another miracle worker of the times.” Erhman set it up just like you described. He laid out a set of events that made me guess he was talking about Jesus, and then pulled the rug out from under me by saying that he was actually speaking of Apollonius. I always wanted to know where Erhman got these “parallels,” and I always knew there was a bias in his arguments.
Thank you for helping to clear this up!
*subscribes*
I wonder how Barth Ehrman is still allowed to teach when he twists facts with an agenda in mind. Just boggles my mind how he can be seen as a genius by many atheists.
May I ask what college and what course you took, and if you still have any of the work/subject matter from your course? Sounds to me like your school is directly targeting Christians. Do they also attempt to show islam or jewdaism as false or just Christianity?
@@liteney It's almost always just Christianity. My school was run by Jewish people so they were safe. Hindi students were encouraged and many classes taught. Same with Bhudda. But Christian stories and branches of it's religion were frowned upon and not taught. The excuse being that we all knew about that and it wasn't interesting.
@@maybeageek Because he agrees with them. This is how most "geniuses" are recognized.
@@sexgod57able Can I ask what school this is? Clearly they are targeting Christianity, that is a human rights violation.
Apollonius of Tyana is a great example of rhetoric over argument. Thank you for doing the heavy lifting for us lightweights. I never would have listened to hours of a boring poorly translated work. You are the man.
Hes the best teacher on youtube. Listening to ANYONE for an HR is difficult. But he manages it nicely.
Said it crisply
Literally
@@mitchking725 He tells lies like he was raise to believe the lies he repeats, yes he is a pleasant Christian APOLOGIST.
@@somewhatinformed1208 you don't have any proof.
And Mithra, Horus, Krishna, et al. I used arguments like this as an atheist. I knew I was being dishonest but they were effective. While I am sure Bart Ehrman knows very well what he is doing, most atheists just parrot what they have heard with no understanding as to the depths of their ignorance.
Atheist being ignorant 😅 yh because theists are so rational and honest .... You were not an atheist just someone pretending to be one.
@@longstrobe2547how exactly are theists being dishonest? And how is a blanket statement like that even close to being an honest statement? And how is making blanket statements against an entire group of people like that thinking rationally? At least he has the decency to come out and admit that he has been dishonest before which is commendable. 20:43 The fact of the matter is that a lot of atheists are very dishonest. I would know, because I have spoken with many over the last decade, so I’m very interested to hear what kind of substance you actually have to be able to back your accusation,since you went out of your way to make it, and then turn on one of your own people for deciding to be an honest person.
You getting upset at honesty really says it all. This must be what you call being a moral person, right?
God love you for your honesty, these atheist just don't get the power of the holy spirit and until they have a spiritual awaken by Jesus they are just blind and most probably unhappy which is sad and I pray for them,thank you brother 🙏
@@longstrobe2547you sound exactly like christians saying "you were never a real Christian" lmao how are you at all different from theists like that 😂😂
@@theamericanpotatonamedphil4306 Bless your heart
"If it's true you can poke it with a stick." I _love_ that! I've recently started poking at Christianity, reading the Bible, picked up a couple books about how to read it, also looking at skeptic arguments at the same time. It's a lot of fun, actually. I'm not sure where the journey will take me, but knowledge is never wasted, as they say! :D
Good to hear you are openly considering !
I feel I am doing the same journey in my life tbh
Keep going!
Repent! And be baptized in the name of Donald Trump Christ!
It's been a year, plenty of time to realize the Bible is true
I have to say that Jesus is The Truth and it makes me so happy when every time somebody tries to disprove Christianity with another pagan source Jesus stands tall and unmoved and the Truth will forever be with him amen and amen 🙏🏾
Amen! I love Jesus.
Hi Mike, I listened to the debates (parts of them) and I found the negativity coming from the atheist side is so blatant that I couldn't finish any of the videos. You did a great job in the debate. I am an agnostic currently reading the Bible for the first time and I found that if you read it with an open mind without any preconceived notions it becomes very difficult to talk with such certainty as an atheist. The Bible is really not as bad or as convoluted as they make it seem.
That's pretty cool dude. It's nice hearing that from an agnostic, as sometimes I'm afraid my own natural biases take over when I watch debates like that. I got two question for ya though: Which debates did you watch, and what book(s) of the Bible are you reading as of now? Btw, if you want good summaries of the books of the Bible before or after you read them, I would suggest watching some of the BibleProject's vids. They're really thorough and they always uncover things that I didn't pick up on the first time reading them. Happy reading, and keep up the search. 😉
@@parktol02 I watched the Skylar Fiction videos, the show and the aftershow and some of the big debate on the resurrection.
So far I read Genesis, Job, some of the Psalms and John. I plan to read Luke during December since it fits the theme of the month and then go back to poetry in the old testament because it's so beautiful.
Thank you for the recommendation for the BibleProject.
@@ItsFlawlesss Your welcome man, Skylar fiction is one of the tougher ones in my opinion, but I thought Mike did pretty well. Seems he's creating quite a stir within the atheist youtube community, for...
reasons I guess
@@ItsFlawlesss The Bible is full of great stories and has informed much of Western art; walk through any of the great museums of Europe without a basic knowledge of the stories of the Bible, and you would feel as lost as a thirsty traveller in a desert, unaware that the barren landscape would blossom with green growth if you would only water it with a little knowledge.
Genesis contains some of the most influential stories of our civilization, but stories they remain. We can appreciate the grandeur of the creation story without feeling the need to believe it is the literal truth. By the same token, the book of Job spins a great yarn, but the deity it presents is not one that we would hope to be anywhere near the truth, seeing as he has no compunction about killing off Job's kids just to make a point.
There are other parts of the Bible that feel outdated or downright wrong though, like its endorsement of slavery, its treatment of women, and its callous approach to life in general, but there are also beautiful and touching passages in it.
@@ItsFlawlesss The most obviously problematic books in my opinion are the books of the law (Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy) and many of the history books (Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Chronicles...). Fun stories, but you wouldn't want the big guy in question to actually exist if you at all value life or freedom.
Also, the glorification of faith and vague prophecy in the New Testament is pretty sketchy.
If a man is judged by who his enemies are, I'd say you're doing just fine.
The pagan heathen have always been at war with G-d preferring their own G-d of their making to the G-d of Israel. So, Baruch Adonai for making your revealed truth as foolishness in the eyes of these foreign worshipping pagans. May you send your annointed one soon to use to annihilate all the false religions and dieties from Your world that You fashioned at Your will.
*I was supposed to debate Richard Carrier in a live debate setting with a moderator. I got an email from someone who debated him back in 2014 or something like that and they advised me to NOT stay in the same hotel as Carrier. Carrier showed up at his room drunk and forced his way into his door and was trying to grab his genitals. This person didnt know that I already knew why Carrier got fired from Colombia and cant teach anywhere else. He was fired and black-balled for $eX..UAIIY assaulting male students and staff. He blamed it on the FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN ELEMENT in Western University culture. This was his way to get back at something he contrived in his imagination which makes him not just morally obscene but all around a NUTBAG.* *(WHATS WRONG GOOGLE FRAUD? YOU SCARED of the TRUTH? THATS a RHETORICAL QUESTION-)*
@@thetruthchannel349 where is all this coming from?
@@carlpetersson7816 just all of you worshipping a man!
I think it's better to be judged by the truth. You can be wrong and be opposed by others who are also wrong. The Bible is the only standard to judge by. (Not saying Pastor Mike is wrong, just pointing out that this statement really isn't true)
Wow, thank you. I have to admit, never heard of Apollonius before, but now am glad I don’t have to care at all, much less enough to do even seven hours of research (in listening to or reading) about him as you obviously did and more.
This was a labor of love. Thank you again sir. May God continue to bless you and your ministry.
Christ said in Matthew 24: 5 "For many will come in My name, saying,I am the Christ," and will deceive many.
Meaning he isn't the Christ or MESSIAH
Remember he's talking to the disciples privately not people 2000 years later just keep reading a few verses down then he covers the false prophets. Why would he claim he wasn't the MASHIACH probably because he didn't fulfill what the MASHIACH was suppose to fulfill thats why
@@gatt2b So in whose name then?
@@DxV04 what name do you need a name after all we talking about a Supreme Power THAT CREATED THE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING IN IT I PERSONALLY CALL HIM THE ONE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD NOW THAT'S ME YOU YOURSELF MAY NEED A NAME AND IF SO I WILL REFER TO MOSES GOD SPEAKING SAYS FOR YOUR FATHERS AND FOREFATHERS KNEW ME BY MANY NAMES BUT UNTO YOU AND THE COVENANT HE MADE WITH MOSES HIS NAME WAS YAHWEH BUT IF YOU RESEARCH THAT NAME YAHWEH WAS A SON TO EL ANOTHER SON TO EL WAS BAAL SO PICK A NAME THERE'S A FEW BUT YOU CAN CHOSE IF YOU LIKE EL ELYON, EL SHADDAI, EL OLAM and many more if you wish all referenced the God EL like I said his children to name a few were Ashtar, MOT, BAAL , DAGON AND MANY OTHERS. YOU ONLY REFERRED TO A NAMED BECAUSE YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN PROBABLY AND CHRISTIANITY NEEDS THAT NAME WHICH ONLY DISCRIBES ONE WHO IS ANOITED WELL ISAIAH 45:1 OH OH LOOKS LIKE CYRUS WAS GOD'S ANOITED SO USE CYRUS I GUESS GE TO WAS A MESSIAH
@@gatt2b who was jesus referencing when he said in many will come in my name. And you said it youself that in my name means the Creator. So there bravo! Great way to contradict ypurself!!!
I can shed some light on the "temperate" blood thing. My husband is super into history and is the Dr. for a group of Civil War living historians. He read all the medical books and put on medical presentations dozens of times. They used to believe that the blood could be too hot or too cold, so they would treat maladies like excessive masturbation with gruel, because gruel did not excite the blood. They used to think things called "humors" lurked in blood and poisoned the body and that bleeding the patient was beneficial. That's literally what killed George Washington.
Ive read somewhere a long time ago a pamphlet about strange facts about historical figures and the way GEORGE WASHINGTON died was in it , you're the second source to echo this fact!
As an atheist I never liked this argument against Christianity but now I know I ought to urgw other athiests not to make the argument because it seems to hold no water, thanks for the video
Does it hold no water? How many Christians violate their own sacraments? How many Christians fake miracles in their churches? How many Christians, even Priests, abandon their daughters rather than protecting them? ( And then preach to me a stranger about their God being the God of Love. ) How many Christians have defended themselves with forgeries and fakes, to inspire Faith?
( millions ) How many Saints, are more legendary than confirmed by a recorded synod?
I haven't completely watched this video yet so this might be covered already, but I love the way that Frank Turuk and J warner Wallace makes an analogy for this case (I'm combining both of their examples on this):
Tell me what ship I am talking about: It went on its maiden voyage from Europe, it went across the Atlantic, didn't have enough lifeboats on it, happened about a century ago, hit an iceberg, sank, and a lot of people died.
More specifically it was a British ocean liner about 800 feet long, it weighed over 60,000 tons and carried about 3000 passengers with a top cruising speed of about 24 knots, and had 3 propellers. It only had about 20 lifeboats since it was designed to be unsinkable. It sunk on the month of April and the iceberg tore a hole in the starboard forward portion of the ship.
If you still don't know what boat I am talking about starts with a "T....I....T...A.....N" So what ship am I talking about? The Titanic? NOPE! I'm talking about the Titan a fictional ship that was shared all these similarities with the Titanic yet was written 12 years before construction of the real-life Titanic had even begun.
If we use the same logic of atheists we can conclude that the historical event of the Titan was in fact false as it shared too many similarities with The Titan to be considered true and accurate. The titanic must be a copycat story of the Titan and cannot be believed as true.
You see the problem? And this is just one example of what happens when you point out similarities but not differences. There are plenty of other anecdotes that can be made using this same sort of thinking but the theme is that you can make anything look like a copy of another when you ONLY use similarities between the two without also pointing out the differences.
I’ve actually heard this comparison before.
I found it very eerie.
I love your approach to exegesis and apologetics Mike. You make it seem like not such a big deal when encountering claims that might shake our faith. The amount of times I’ve had a conversation with non-believers thay leaving me feeling foolish and like I’m wrong to believe in Christ. You put it in perspective and help me to hone my own framework and basis for rational, biblical belief in the Holy Trinity and the incarnation of Christ as something that - even if others don’t believe - is still a supremely reasonable position to hold about reality. Thank you.
Never heard of the man and will likely forget about him by tomorrow morning. But give me Jesus any day - He’s the real deal!!
Haha what a loon
As real as Santa
FACT: The MORE desperate they attempt to erase Jesus out of existence, The MORE hardcore believers stay steadfast to Jesus under the authority of God ( I AM THAT I AM )! No deception shall conquer us!
That's right because the Bible says who JESUS IS AND WE TAKE IT BY FAITH
doesnt mean that you have any evidence for Jesus though does it?
@@DaveJavoux I am that I am in the old Testament is Jesus in the New Testament. SAME PERSON
@@laurasilverstone9735 So Jesus Advocated Genocide Slavery Human Sacrifice Misogyny and Child abuse??
@@laurasilverstone9735 OH and Guess what! you dont have any evidence for the God of the OT either!!
These critics are strong evidence that you're on the right track. What I don't understand is why atheists are so evangelical. Keep up the good fight. I was an agnostic and decided to read the Bible in order to argue more effectively with Christians.LOL God has a delicious sense of humor. So hopefully their frustration with you will lead them to truth. God bless you keep up the good fight. I very much appreciate your intellectual integrity and moral courage.
Well there's alot at stake for them if they're wrong. I think it's more reaffirming their own conscious that they're right, as to avoid the thought and reality of judgement and hell
Pastor Mike Winger. Thank you for offering all these effort, intelligence, hard work, etcetera to strengthen our faith in Christ.
I am over here in Africa and I watch your videos like I am taking some lectures at school.
Mee too from RWANDA
Good work Mike that means that christianty is being spread so keep on being faithful to your calling. As a Christian I am proud to say that you are a great blessing to me.
My go to response is this: "show me the primary sources and we'll talk." Most people hear this rhetoric second-hand and assume it's a legit comparison. SHOW ME THE SOURCES!!!!
Yes, yes, and YES! We Christians need to stop taking every objection as a serious challenge to Christianity and learn to say, "Show me your sources." Most objections from a historical standpoint disappear when you ask for proof.
@roasted pancakeswhat we have is the pauline epistles which are the oldest and most reliable work relative to the other gospels. And we have mark and matthew, which luke amd john are based off of. And scholars believe matthew is based of mark, since mark is older. And mark may be based in Q, which would be the original teachings of jesus. So paul and mark are really what we have. I think that really paul was the one who kicked of christianity as we know it. Perhaps jesus was resurected, or perhaps not. But I dont think paul knew or really cared. Paul is really OG disciple who wrote the epistles to convince pagans to adopt a monotheistic religion with a mix of ancient jewish and jesus's teachings. It was a way for paul to convince pagans to adopt what was essentially a form of judaism at the time. Minus the laws of moses.
The reason i think this is because there are no sources outside the bible that speak of paul or saul. And paul claimed to have spoke of his experiences to agrippa. Yet josephus does not mention paul or that his disciples believed he was god or that he was ressurrected.
roasted pancakes
If I had to guess, the person calling everyone an idiot didn’t do any research as is usually the case with people I’ve had a run in with. It’s easy to say, “but Constantine and the church...” and not have picked up any literature on the matter. If he had known the facts then he/she is lying. Either way, they’re either ignorant or arrogant and lying.
Constantine did fudge around with the Bible....we should be grateful for what we have left. They didn’t so much as add things as they removed, or came up with alternate words like the phrase “help meet” in the book of Genesis (Genesis 2:18). The controversial word that they changed from the original, was a word that originally meant “saviour” - and they didn’t like the connotations of that during the reign of King James, that a woman could be a saviour to a man. They certainly were not trying to “pretty it up”, they were trying to make it more palatable to pagans so they could market Christianity as a business. I always imagine antennas coming out of Constantine’s head like “My Favourite Martian” when Constantine first understood that as a “Holy” emperor that he could not only collect taxes, but tithing also. You can’t equate Constantine to the early Church....don’t get me started on the goofy things that happened during the Council of Nicaea.
The sacrifices that people have made to preserve what we have left, to the point of giving their life to not only preserve it, but make it available to the general public like WilliamTyndale, should give people pause over the importance of the material. People do not give up their life over nonsense. These people were not simple-minded or brainwashed like a cult - they were sincere, honest people that had conviction about the validity of the information they had available to them.
I believe that what we have left of the Bible is incredibly important and true regardless of the journey it has been through....it has and will stand the rest of time.
@SS Read F F Bruce 'The New Testament documents: Are they reliable?'. You may think its a shocking load of biased rubbish! Let me know where you feel it's wrong or misguided.
Apollonius seems to be Simon Magus the great. He is mentioned in the book of Acts, wanting to have the title of Apostle for the exchange of money.
Also, Apollonius's scribe Damas is mentioned as the scribe of Simon Magus in the Gnostic gospels about Simon Magus.
It's also noteworthy that Simon says he was a student of John the Baptist.
Simon could have easily been Apollonius of Tyana.
I think you’re on to something here
As a Biblical, young-earth-creationist, it was funny hearing you mention how he documented “dragons”. It’s humorous because that may have been one of the only factual statements in the story of Apollonius! Lol
Context: it’s very likely that “dragons”, which are referenced throughout nearly every ancient culture and are evidenced through art and literature in many archaeological findings, were actually descendants of the dinosaurs that joined Noah on the ark! Keep in mind that the word “dinosaur” wasn’t coined until 1842 by Sir Richard Owen.
BWAHAHAHAHA
It really goes to show how honest Ehrman is when he’s willing to use Apollonius as an argument against Christ
And Judas the Galilean, and Jesus Ben Anias, and Judas Ben Hezekiah, and The Egyptian, and Simon Bar Kochba ... You could not swing a dead cat in 1st century Judea without hitting a messiah or two.
Here's a thought, Apolonius of Tiana is also a construct of even more ancient individuals.
Beautiful comment! Well said my man!
A thought: Maybe Apollonius was Paul of Tarsus.
Like Jesus of the Bible... old stories remade. Like Hollywood remaking all the old movies now...
@@intellectualdegen Except there is no one in history who is like Jesus, Osirus, mitrhas and other pagan gods are nothing like the Messiah when you read their stories. Not only this He was prophesied about thousands of years before He was born. From the very begining Christ was prophesied about. So if anything it is satan inspiring men to create pagan gods in the likeness of the One True God who died for your sins according to the scriptures, He rose again the third day so that who ever repents of their sins, and follows Him will have everlasting life. You will either be judged in Christ or you will be judged on your own merit. And nothing you could ever do could make you righteous before God because you have broken all of His laws. And you will take an account of yourself before Him. So repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved
@@kilemyers784 delusional nonsense.
I've heard of alot of these from Babylon, to Egypt, to Rome ,to the Americas. But never heard of this one. Same story different names. Only the Christ passes the test of Truth.
How you know he does?
@@enriquevaldes2760 they must have been there
@@enriquevaldes2760 coz Jesus. You none gunna talk smack bout my Jesus. But yeah every mythic story is the same in its basis. And if all other stories are made up, logic follows the story of Jesus is made up as well. Not saying there wasn't a person named Jesus around that time that probably started this cult but the whole background story is made up.
Passes what test? The Bible proves that their was more than 1 god m, to be a holy prophet one must have only predicted 3 future events. It speaks against using deviation and fortune telling type arts yet says holy prophets used runes to make prophetic claims... leads one to believe Jesus was unmarried and free of sexual sin but also says god sent him to live as a normal human man and to do that he would as a man be expected to work, marry and have children. It also states he went into a Jewish temple and taught and to do that he would have had to have been a Rabbi and to be a rabbi he would have had to been married even the name Elohim actual translates to gods or deities The singular form of Elohim is probably Eloah. What are we to make of the plural? The Bible also says that god was to meet with the council of the gods so obviously there are other gods and even the commandments says you are to put no other god above me it doesn’t say you are not to praise other gods just not to put any ABOVE ME
@@mandeyoung3495 damn girl! Destruction with facts and logic.
I appreciate your patience in going over a nonsensical legend just to show us that there is nothing to be afraid of if we are ever in a situation where an Atheist pretends to know something more than we do about history. You are so smart. Thank you for this overview of Apollonius, I would never have the patience to read it for myself and cross-reference the false parallels, it's obvious that they just want to confuse us with this historic story. When I am confused, I am scared. I believe it's a tactic that the enemy uses often.
Pastor Mike, thank you so much for this. I especially appreciated when you talked about people trying to make you doubt your faith by using examples of other people we’ve never heard of before.
That’s such a good impetus to really research them before you question yourself or try to refute them.
Your willingness to slog through that book really helped to see how people distort things to try and refute Christ.
Thank you!!
We still have an empty grave! He has risen!
😂😂❤️❤️ amen
King david grave is empty too 👀
Reuben Robinson that is not what the Bible says
@@onestepaway3232 Where is the evidence that Jesus was even put in a tomb? How do you know that it's true? There is no way of proving anything about Jesus. People are often mistaken, and it was no different during those times. Probably more so. Do you really believe that Jesus was put into a tomb? Why would they have done that? He was a nobody to them so they wouldn't have even put him in a tomb. The story of Jesus is a load of bulls**t, and anyone that believes it is incredibly gullible.
No One yes, Jesus was put in a tomb owned by Joseph of Arimathea. People knew the owner and location of the tomb.
As a young Christian, your videos help me and encourage me A LOT. It’s like when Paul was in jail and everyone knew he was there because of preaching and he just continued preaching in jail and doing that a lot of people found the courage to continue doing the same.
SS
You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. If you spent just one minute doing some research it’s clear in Acts 9 that Paul did meet Jesus and even says that he spent 3 years in Arabia with Him (Galatians 1).
@@J.F.331 No Paul never met Jesus that's a fact in fact he says I knew a man that was hung on a tree some 14 years ago whether I knew him in person or in a dream or in spirit makes no difference because he actually says he didn't get this teaching from a book nor from a man but I bring this teaching from my own mind fact he taught for 3 years before going to Jerusalem and meeting the disciples and there is where the problems start why because the disciples wasn't teaching that he was a GOD BUT PAUL WAS AND DON'T GET CONFUSED WITH THE WORD MESSIAH OR MASHIACH MEANING ANOINTED ONE I'M SURE YOU YOURSELF SAID MAN THAT PASTOR IS ANOINTED GOD IS TRULY WITHIN HIM BUT YOU NOT GOING TO CALL HIM MESSIAH NOR WILL YOU LOOK AT HIM AS A GOD SAME AS THE DISCIPLES EVEN IF THEY BELIEVED HIM TO BE A MESSIAH ALL THAT MEANT WAD HE WAS ANOINTED PEOPLE TOTALLY GET THIS MESSIAH THING WRONG
@@gatt2b ..Tim.. as you say, Paul never actually met Jesus.. some form of faith existed at the time of his writing, but non of the people that Paul wrote to had ever met Jesus, or even, anyone else who had.. the faith existed, even before Paul converted to it, because he tells us himself that as a Devout Jew, he hated and despised all nonJews.. it was his religious duty to do so.. this is why he was able to say that Jews were persecutors and contrary to all men, 1Thes,2:15.. for it is written, that nonbelievers are evil, and worthy of punishment...
Ok let's look at Paul or Saul he himself said I bring you this teaching not from man nor from a book but in my own mind yes he taught 3 years before James demanded to meet with him why because he wasn't teaching what Jesus taught but more then that you Christians say the Jews or God's chosen people but yet say they don't understand their own book have you ever thought just how crazy that is and remember if Jesus isn't the MESSIAH or Better yet the Prince the Bible talks about I'm talking about old testament Hebrew written not the Roman Greek New testament Paul invented the Christianity you believe in today fact is all of Paul's writings came before the 4 gospels were written do you know that and if you did doesn't that sound strange please share with me any prophecy in the old testament that you think is a prophecy talking about Jesus and I would be glad to point you to the truth remember I was an apostolic pentecostal we know the Bible better than most so for me to have a change of heart and see what really is going on with Christianity and it's pegan beliefs you too better need to open your eyes that is if you want to know if you rather stay blinded I totally get it some people can't handle it here is a little assignment please tell me in ISAIAH chapter 9 who is this really talking about I'm hoping you can answer this also ISAIAH 53 please tell me who is the suffering servant
@@gatt2b ..Tim.. there are no prophecies of Jesus in the OT, and yes, I did know that Paul wrote before any of the gospels were writ! did you know that even before any gospel was writ, belief in Jesus was already widespread, right across the whole Roman empire? see Rom.1:8..
Jesus was not the long awaited Jewish Messiah, in fact, it is most probable that he did not even exist!.. same as angel Gabriel..
belief in Jesus is delusional, belief in angel Gabriel, delusional..
Isaiah was speaking about 700BC, at a time when the ancient Jews were in Captivity.. he spoke to Jews of his day, trying to bolster their faith.. the remnant of the faithful, remove the stumbling block out of the way.. (stumbling block=unbelief..
but the Jealous God of Moses? no good reason to believe in that God, or supposed prophets recieving messages from angels!
what nonsense!
all religious belief is mere superstiton..
touch wood, touch the Black Stone...
When I was younger, 17, and a new Christian in 1970. People kept telling me the bible and Christianity could not be true because the earth was billions of years, and this was from experts. I was young, so it shook me a little bit. But then I remembered how my life changed literally overnight, after the night I gave my life to Jesus. Even that night my dreams were sweet. Before I was fearful, depressed , dark, hopeless. It all changed that night I confessed my sinful life and asked Jesus into my life. Atheism has never really changed anyones life. Jesus has changed millions of lives.
I am going through a bit of a religious deconstruction. Although I do not fully know what I believe at this moment, your channel and all of its content is a huge help. We may not always agree, but I love your approach and I really appreciate your ministry. Thank you
Religious Deconstruction? Remember one thing, Eternity is a Long Time to be Wrong. God Bless.
@@stevelopez372 Yessir - deconstruction. I was raised Catholic which many (including Pastor Mike and myself) have issues with. There are hundreds of types of Christianity in the United Stares alone and thousands globally. Other religions aside - should this be the case if there is truly one God where the risk is guessing right or burning forever in eternity? Im envious that you can make your peace with this. I fear so many versions of Christianity exist because it’s made up and there’s money to be made.
@@counterpoiseag6068I wish you luck on your faith journey. As a Catholic who once identified how you did, I understand how the existence of
many forms of Christianity can seem strange, and the truth is many of them are worldly and corrupt. It’s important to ask difficult questions and engage with not just the mind, but the heart as well; as seen in this video much of what comes from the atheist side is misrepresented to support their arguments, of which the motive of doing so likely stems from emotion rather than rational thought.
@@zebo6162 May I humbly and sincerely ask what keeps Christianity relevant in your mind / heart? For me the more I research the further I drift. Really thought it’d be the other way around. The amount of psychological distress this has caused is daunting
@@counterpoiseag6068 Of course; I appreciate your sincerity. It's difficult to articulate succinctly why I'm a Catholic in a single RUclips comment, but I'll try my best.
In appealing to the mind, what it really comes down to is listening to and learning from those who well-represent the ideas in question. I saw your "religion" playlist on your channel and the videos there remind me of the videos which made me convinced of atheism for a few years; RUclips was instrumental in my atheist conversion. Without balancing views (which is difficult considering the way RUclips wants to serve up MORE of the same to us), it's easy to fall into an intellectual echo chamber, so good on you for finding some conversation on the other side.
I also noticed most, if not all of the rebuttals of Christians on your playlist are non-Catholic and specifically American Evangelical, and while that could be coincidence I believe that is telling of both how evangelicals can so easily twist truth into falsehood and how it's easy for an atheist to attack low-hanging fruit while ignoring more difficult or rigorous argumentation. As a Catholic I find Catholicism to be the fullness of Christian truth, so perhaps looking into the distinctions between Catholic and Protestant ideas may help you sift through unfounded or even illogical Christian ideas (especially considering you grew up Catholic).
A few speakers I recommend are Bishop Barron and Trent Horne. They both are very good at articulating the Catholic worldview on a variety of topics, and are not afraid to dialogue with those who disagree with them.
In summary, here are a few points that may motivate you:
1. If God is real, coming to understand Him can only be the most important undertaking.
2. It's important to find the best representation you can of an argument to evaluate, regardless of side. If you don't, then you're inadvertently accepting a strawman of the position as the entirety of it.
3. Christianity isn't a monolith, and no one person can speak for nor represent Christianity. I think Catholic theology is much more robust than "Christian" theology.
4. Perhaps go to mass sometime; it's one thing to understand Christianity but another to experience it.
Let me know if you have any other questions and I'll do my best to answer.
"His Father." Those two combination of words broke the castle down.
Sand castle I'd say.
@@danae5578 Hah, Sand castle. Nice.
@@the7thseven873 it works doesn't it. Lol
@@danae5578 Yh, it does.
It was an "other Jesus" story that was the catalyst for me getting into apologetics. After looking into it thoroughly I felt somewhat foolish that I experienced doubt from such sophistry but I'm glad it happened. I'm now well equipped to defend my faith with evidence. Great discussion, Pastor Mike! You're a blessing!
Superman and Spiderman are both superheroes, and they are different, but they are both fiction.
@@truedepth3 cool. Good thing Jesus isn't fictional. Any other comments? :)
@@chuckalakatoob Apollonius of Tyre was probably based on a real person, but the stories about him are fictional. The stories about Jesus are probably loosely based on a real person, but they are fictional :p
@@truedepth3 hmmm... Nope, not really any evidence of it being loosely based on a real person. There is a lot of strong historical evidence that suggests Jesus was based on Jesus though.
Want to try again? ;)
@@chuckalakatoob No, there is not strong historical evidence the stories about Jesus are real. You are a liar.
The fact that the world persecutes Christian proves that there is really historical Jesus ever lived on this earth, He is not a myth.
It doesn't on it's own, but it makes sense if divine Jesus existed. It's a nice evidence on top, but not proof on it's own.
🤣🤣🤣🤣 what a nonsensical argument.
@Brown in America For one, he is written down in many Roman historical documents outside of the Gospels.
Here is the most glaring disparity:
Were there thousands of years of prophesy written about the coming of Apollonius before his birth?
You almost have it.. except I do not think you understand what your talking point is actually about.
Prophesy.. is non specific.. it is vague, it is generalized, it is so common and nondescriptive that it can be interpreted, interpolated and depicted as many things..having many meanings and fit any narrative one wants to self apply it to.. they can literally make something fit as long as they search and apply hard enough to that narrative. That is how a prophesy works.
Now take that in comparison to a prophecy.. yes prophecy and prophesy are not the same. And trying to make it seem they are is just blatantly dishonest and erroneous. Wether one means to do so or not is irrelevant. It still is incorrect and they are not the same.
That being said, a prophecy is specific. It answers a given time..a date, an explanation, reason, a who, what, when, why and where..and it answers these in detail. It does such as so there is no confusion, no mix up, no alternative interpretation or interpolation..no other possible meaning or answer than one very specific conclusion and answer.
So all the prophesy about a supposed jesus...a given savior, a chosen deity being, ason of a god, as described by all the supposed ancient texts of biblical claims..they are indeed prophesy.. words written non specific and can be interpreted by any means and way of approach as one so self wills to make it appear and apply. Thus that prophesy can apply to any of the so called figures as mentioned in history that match the similarities of the jesus story. That is how prophesy works.. it was so vague and nonspecific that it got just about whatever other story narrative out there .
So yes the prophesies you mention also apply to all the others. That is why you are correct....it is just prophesy.
It is like saying there will be days in the future where earthquakes, fires and other natural disasters will happen... well no freaking kidding. Of course there will be. There always will be because those are natural events of the natural course of this planet we live on. They happen irregardless of such a statement or claim to prophesy is made or not.
That is what happens with prophesy.. Now if you mean to say prophecy..especially about jesus. Then you will find nothing..
The problem with this video is that the pastor here is relying upon a grave fallacy here at the premises of the foundation of his opinion and attempt to discuss this topic. That fallacy is the presupposition that the jesus story is already true and the correct and only story out there. Thus he starts at a conclusion and tries to work backwards to prove that conclusion. But that is not how logic, reason, rationality and critical thinking works. Especially in the application of observation of reality as it is demonstrated to exist.
In order to use these areas mentioned you start by gleaming and gathering information and evidences to suggest a proposition of hypothesis..then move forward to test and observe, repeat and demonstrate answers from those that can or do lead to the hypothesis can be factually a theory to be proven true. Then from there you repeat and use all the gathered evidences from information, knowledge and testing and coming to those single answers that demonstrably prove that the theory is sound and true with factual data to provide those evidences and that they are observable facts and that others can test it and repeat and find the same conclusions.
If one has a conclusion before they start. Then it is already a failure..it fails because it is a bias. It is approached with dishonesty. Looking for answers that only fit to what is already believed.
It is arguements and approaches like this video that give atheism and anti theists more evidences to discredit christianity and theor arguements and points they try to convince others of.
You know, when I was pregnant with my daughter I dreamed I gave birth to a cat. It was a dream. She was (and still is) human. Apollonius' mother's dream and "visitors" are irrelevant.
That's exactly what I always thought, Mary could have literally said anything. Her and Joseph could have been covering up premarital sex so they wouldn't be stoned to death, according to the laws of the old testament if they were caught. One shouldn't expect one to be anymore divine than the other. And every culture has some sort of divine story about a God or Gods that are not really that far apart from each other
@@chrispfeifer7628 That is your bias, not your opinion, your anti Christian bias. There is no story parallel any where throught out history to the story of the virgin birth of the Son of God Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ had no slaves, he conquered no one, he ruled over no one, he forced no one to worship him. He is the only example of a truly Holy peaceful divine being to ever grace humanity. If you don't wish to accept the love and sacrifice of the lamb of God the Father, our lord and savior Jesus Christ, that is up to you. As we are not slaves to God the Father, we are his children, he loves us, and he has granted us the ultimate gift of love, that being freewill. I will pray for your soul... Jesus Christ loves you and so do I... Amen...
@@liteney If you think there are no parallels to the virgin birth story then you are truly clueless.
@@chrispfeifer7628 Agreed. There are tons of good books, lectures, documentaries, etc about it. If Christ taught us anything, real or not, it was how to save *ourselves*. He is not coming in the end days to save our asses, it would be nice, but it ain’t happening, Sorry. 🤷🏻♀️ I believe in a Creator(s) and I believe in the Bible in an allegorical & gnostic sense but not in the indoctrinated, brainwashy, Christian way. Just look at the foundation of Christianity - it was all about greed & power. No thanks. And I wish they’d stop saying they’ll pray for us. Keep your prayers and your fake love. No one asked for them. So delusional. 🙄
@@Gina231329 elaborate
I’ve had buddy’s ask me about the similarities. I would usually just say. The prophecies of the yet to come “Son of God” were written about in scripture generations prior to Christ walking the earth, so people, probably ones in power, would imitate & alter their life stories for the history books to appear as the Devine one. Thanks for getting in to more detail because that is a regular debate topic.
They try to do this with like every other possible god from every other religion.
I don't know any Christians frightened, scared or otherwise of Apollonius, Mithra, Osiris, etc. None of these heresies add up to the reality of Christ when placed under scrutiny. That atheists seem to take comfort in thinking it can turn someone who has been born again in spirit just demonstrates the lack of spiritual vigor they embody -- they tend to view the world through the eyes of a flawed and damaged spirit and think that everyone else is the same. I pray that they can find fulfillment and come to know God.
Apollonius lived at the same time as Jesus, and the accounts of him are not religious.
RUclips literally put an ad promoting sex workers in the middle of this video. You know you are doing things right when the enemy starts meddling in your efforts.
"Debunk the dumbness" might be my new favorite phrase
I agree. Great saying!
On the birth story, noticed lots of "seemed's" and (said sarcastically 😂) Appolonius' mother's story is *definitely* like Mary's; what with picking flowers in the meadow with her maids while the young Mary has to undertake a dusty, arduous, uncomfortable trip. And with Christ we have no premature birth either, which is actually significant. Luke 2:6 says, "the days were completed for her to be delivered." Doesn't rule out premature delivery, but the plain reading of the text emphasizes yet again how the all powerful Second Person of the Trinity took on absolute flesh and followed the normal timing built into creation.
And an atheist wouldn't be satisfied with this perhaps, but apart from all the other deeper apologetic reasons, I don't think as Christians we need to be afraid of this sort of feint. God has built the world in such a way that certain stories and patterns -- always pointing to our glorious Savior -- keep surfacing right and left. They're either true (in the sense of mirroring God's truth) or counterfeits, which can sometimes look like a photo negative. Not sure that makes sense but hopefully someone will find it interesting/helpful!
There is no trinity! That came LATER! Not in the Bible!
Your beliefs are counterfeit
@@HistoryandReviews the concept of the trinity is within the bible
@@quilodinerro No it isnt and the word Trinity is not in it either
@@HistoryandReviews yes it is read John 1.
I had to chew on Ehrman's book for my bachelor's degree. Reading up on Apollonius of Tyana was on my to-do list, but now thanks to you I can remove it!
“Measure your success by the enemies you create”. Wear it like a badge of honor.
Bless you.
Sooo..by that you can say Hitler and his regime was a success because the majority of world powers and their citizens and armies became their enemies..
Oh wait, what was I thinking... it only applies to the narrative of which you use it to ones own advantage.
I just brought it up to show how if it does not apply equally in all cases to all cases, then it probably should not be applied at all.
Sometimes encountering enmity about something should give one pause as to why. Take a step out of it, take the nuetral position and disconnect oneself entirely and then take the overall grander look from afar at all of it.
You can not tell who is winning a war from just one battle and that being while standing amongst those who seem to be winning in those immediately around you.
That actually sounds like a quote from Hitler. Was it?
Yeah I actually think that was Hitler.
It might scare "christians" but it certainly will NOT bother the born-again in the slightest mate! God bless you!
The Kennedy/ Lincoln parallel is a good example of how history repeats itself
There's a very easy way to counter any of these mother/child 'parallel' tales.
It's in the Genesis verse which is considered to be the first prophecy in the Holy Bible.
Genesis 3:15
*And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel*
Looking at that verse carefully reveals that it's actually a double prophecy.
*and between thy seed and her seed*
*Her* seed?
A woman has seed?
This is obviously prophesying the virgin birth and Satan would have immediately got the message. From that point onwards he would make sure there would be several virgin with child stories to muddy the waters; while simultaneously setting out to destroy the Adamic bloodline.
Interesting
So god can’t outwit Satan! Hhmmm nope.. not believing that
@@lisathomas1622
Que?
God *did* outwit satan and will continue to do so.
When David defeated Goliath he cut off the giant's head; took it with him to Jerusalem and buried it in a cave at Golgitha - called 'The cave of the skull'.
When Yeshua was crucified He would have had extreme difficulty breathing and so would have had to work desperately hard to get air into His lungs by twisting one of His feet on the standing board of the cross repeatedly.
So, His death and resurrection defeated satan - Goliath would have been a fallen angel descendant.
In doing so He crushed satan's head and satan bruised His heel.
Yeah yeah yeah. Change the meaning of some random passage in the Bible to suit your random argument. The oldest trick in the book
@@Skinnymarks
wtf are you talking about?
It's not "some random passage". If it was I would use one you'd never heard of.
The fact that you probably think that the David and Goliath narrative is about the underdog versus the odds on favourite is only a commentary on your lack of knowledge.
The David and Goliath story is about one man's faith in his God and that that God aimed the slingshot in his behalf.
David had to win because the Messiah was already prophesied to come through his bloodline.
Any more knowledge I can put your way?
Never heard of Appolonius before, but can totally see how this would shake someone’s faith. Thanks for putting this together, certainly adds to the tools I have when faced with discussions with those that oppose Jesus Christ.
*How could this shake anyone's faith? Do you know what FAITH is based on?*
You have no tools. No scientific evidence for any god. Doesn't matter if this story is true or not.
@@MrR40388 If its true then souls are on the line
@@MrR40388 So something must be true if the scientists are interpreting the information? What tools do you need to measure a God that is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient?
What exactly are you thinking God is? How do you measure what is immeasurable? Do you think God is a little finite individual like you are, with a finite understanding?
Exactly WHAT do you think God is and what we believe about God? Your argument falls flat because you are basing it on false assumptions to begin with.
@@moorek1967 the thing about the bible is that the god of it isnt omnipotent and you cant dispute that, the bible is rife with stories of god leaving decsicions to man which than betray him an omnipotent being would have known what would happen. ill give you two examples why did god put adam and evee in the garden if he knew what they would do? Why did god ask abraham to sacrifice issac if he knew he wouldve done it anyways? If you still think hes omnipotent than your openly admitting your god is a sadist
Just found your videos yesterday and now im binge watching your videos keep up the good work brother
Hi Pastor Mike, if you weren’t speaking truth, the devil wouldn’t be paying you much attention, & he uses all kinds of folks to get under our skin. You are explaining biblical things in a way I understand, appreciate, & can learn from... so if it is important or necessary at all, the Lord Himself has got your back...me, too...take care and be blessed, and thank you so much for your faithful sharing...
Although I think the atheist may say if they were not challenging Pastor Mike, the believers like Pastor Mike would use their faith to hurt and harm other people who want nothing to do with Christianity for example.
@@akindelebankole8080 Atheist project a lot. Secularists love bashing Christianity but can't deny that Christianity is what has given the west order for a long time.
@@dumebiokosa3138 Perhaps atheists project. I can't talk for atheists. Although I think your response is a way to avoid answering truthfully. Christianity is the foundation of western culture. I say and admit that all day long. However, Christianity is the culture of Europeans. I have no problem with that. I am very steeped in European culture, including speaking four of its languages. That does not mean I should deny my own ancestors, my person and my individuality. Don't forget that the Christian foundation is what made exploration into, and exploitation of the new world be justified. That was the way the "now" so called "West" was able to take resources from everywhere along the exploration and exploitation.
However, what has softened the biblically justified pillaging and thieving of the world's resources, is the inclusion of different peoples in the mix of what is called Christianity today. And although Christianity is primarily European or of the West, it is highly washed over by the inclusion of so many non European peoples of the entire world. That is the only way Christianity has been tempered, because Christian leaders from other parts of the world will not be satisfied with a racist, xenophobic and enslaving Christianity. The real problem which many extreme American Christians have is that this diluted Christianity is diminishing to the power that the Christian faith originally and primarily bestowed onto the European Christians. Now, this diluted Christianity that is being promulgated in many churches in the West and throughout the wield, is doling and giving out social support and loving kindness to not just Europeans, but to everyone that comes to it. I think that is a good and fair thing. I also think millions of Europeans and millions of loving European-Americans are in favour of a diverse Christian church that shares it's resources with everyone that comes to it, and not just simply give it all to just Europeans.
My stance is not just to support some silly short atheist or for that matter, some xenophobic Christian alone, but to help everyone understand the power of our common humanity. I do admit that I am a rebel of sorts, but believe me, I really love people and I appreciate you so much. Like Jesus, I will constantly and forever turn over the market tables of hate and bigotry when and wherever I see it's head even faintly rising. I want to be sure to cut if off at the impasse.
I hope that helps you understand me a bit more.
@ippos_khloros What part of Myra's message disagrees with you?
This whole "adversary" has gone too far. The devil was created by god for a reason, that means the devil is working in accordance with god to meet the same goal.
Angels don't have free will, so the devil is only doing what god instructed him to do.
If you think the devil is the source of sin or evil your claiming that god is actively performing evil acts.
The devil has the same goal as God. It's only a different form of pressure.
Quit thinking Dante's inferno is Christian literature. It's not of the Bible so the depictions of the devil and the underworld are incorrect.
Very very very dangerous times we live in. If it were possible even the elect would be deceived. I even see the rumblings faint tremors in my own family.
I'm a born again Christian. I've never heard of this person. Thank God!
Ignorance is bliss
Its stories like this that caused so much confusion in me in college. Thankful for teachers like you ❤
Isn't the confusion part of the plot?
We live with a bunch of people who look for miracles while yet we live in a universe surrounded by miracles.
Amen
Every person that is "born again" is a miracle.
Amen
Amen. The fact that we wake up everyday to such a rich and plentiful planet is a miracle. The fact that we exist at all is the biggest miracle of them all.
I didn't realize how intellectually dishonest and deceptive Bart Ehrman was. I saw another video where he claimed that, prior to Jesus, plenty of Jewish prophets performed healing on the blind. Then when asked to offer examples from the Old Testament, he acknowledged he had none but then said there were plenty in "Jewish tradition."
You just debunked your own claim.
Of course it wouldn't be in the old testiment. It's probably in a lot of other Jewish sources.
@@Skinnymarks there are plenty of jewish prophets who performed miracles in the old testament.
@@lavenderflowers1075 such as...? btw the oroginal comment refers to healing... we’re not talking about moses splitting the red sea.
Thank you for unpacking this! Several years ago I almost bought one of Ehermans books when I had questions, digging deeper. Just before purchase the Holy Spirit made me pause and nudged me to look him up. So thankful that I heeded the Spirit because this would have thrown me for a loop, based on subject matter not core belief. I ve suffered from severe pain since 2009 and most days it's all I can do to passively listen, forget research! So, thank you for this info! God Speed.
The Holy ghost didnt nudge you, that was your religious conviction which is mind control
Why would one who has the "Spirit of Christ in them" be scared by other stories? They have the Spirits witness. They know Jesus lives. They hear His voice and know and follow Him. They can not be deceived away by false teachers.
Your last comment about taking your wife out on a date, right now, was perfect. Hope it was a wonderful date. Thank you so much for all your research and for taking the time to make these videos. As a believer it is nice to be able to come to you as a resource to increase my faith in a world of uncertainty where we are able to access everything with just the push of a button. Thanks!
I am going through the broader bit of reading “scholarship” that hopes you don’t fact check their summary of medieval Christian philosophy. So now I’m reading St Augustine in order to combat what my gut is telling me is a lie, falling behind in my church book group on “Desiring the kingdom.” But man, totally worth it. I’m learning so much. “Scholars” bank on us not having a complete education and certainly not a classical one.
First time viewing you, and I’m hooked! Thank you!
Mike! Bro that was hilarious how you lowkey admitted to hearing the 7hr audiobook of Apollonius of Tyana!!! I feel you on that. Thank you for doing what you do, I appreciate your content very much and you are a true blessing to the Christian community!!!
WOW! You must’ve really caused a buzz in the spiritual realm. Those evil entities do not want the truth of God and Jesus Christ to be known.
Actually I see the most evil entities generated by churches. A lot of Christians beliefs are regulated by demonic spirits.
I've even seen demons mascerading as an angel so that a Christian could act like they knew better then everyone else.
@@Skinnymarks 😂😂😂 From someone who cast demons out, you have no truth in you.
@@Skinnymarks stop trying to make excuses not to focus on Jesus by looking at people who claim to follow him but don't. You're such a coward.
@@riontecooper3537 he's not wrong though, its biblical. The biggest dangers to the church are the false christian doctrines that come from manipulation and misinterpretation of the bible. Things like New age philosophy and properity gospel, etc... Co-opting and preaching a different gospel in the name of Jesus, is more dangerous than those who deny him.
Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles? And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave M e , you who practice lawlessness .’
Matthew 7:22-23
Jesus Christ right meaning Jesus anointed that's all Christ means so does the word MESSIAH so in ISAIAH 45:1 Cyrus is God's MESSIAH you going to worship him too the word MESSIAH is written 38 times throughout the old testament not one time is it speaking of who you think it is that person is referred to as the Prince you better find a Jewish Rabbi get you a real Hebrew Bible and stop wasting time on these translations of translations it could cost you your soul you probably want to get this right stop depending on Soul/ Paul and just read what Jesus said oh my God Paul directly contradicts everything Jesus taught wakeup people
I am a life long Christian who is questioning my faith. I have been listening to the mythisists and need to hear good counter arguments to weigh these arguments on my mind and heart.
I hope your journey has been fruitful! 🙏
Hey, just a side note; I LOVE the blue background. Please keep it. 😁
Me too! I don’t know why but I do 😂
Seeing those videos that are against you, tells me that you’re doing something right.
I need a laugh, got that link?
Got to be funny deconstruct ing Mike.
Really? Most people are against the belief that the earth is flat. Does that mean that the earth is likely to be flat?
@@mrmaat the previous statement describes a spiritual concept that the world is evil, and if it so be against you for speaking words, then perhaps the words are truth. This does not apply to astrology but perhaps physics gives us a clue.
Absolutely, enemy is restless and winning the soul back in the Lord Jesus Christ
The fact, all against the God of the Bible, Bible itself and Jesus Christ, confirms its Powerfully true.
Good video, Mike, as always. Boy, reading the comments on this one really made me hungry for a healthy breakfast... because it was full of flakes and nuts.
Bruh, I'm gonna go find that.
(: Indeed
Never heard of this dude Apollonius. Thanks for the info. Have you done a video on Serapis? He's another common "figure" compared to be the "original" Jesus.
Serapis doesn't even compare he was an entirely made up deity the Romans created in an attempt to Romanize the Egyptian god Apis.
Thank you for strengthening us and making us aware of these situations.
This channel is a huge inspiration for my content
Your channel is amazing may God continue to reveal him selves to you
Nah, it doesn't scare me at all. It's been Jesus, *_not_* Apollonius - a guy I had never heard about before -, who has been doing wonders in my life.
But you should still use historical evidence when defending your faith- the facts are on our side
@@blackoutninja we don't have to use any kind of evidence. The evidence is the world and you and me. Keep your faith strong and don't worry about the lovers of sin. They will not see it.
It's funny this Apollonius guy is now being mentioned. People used to worship a god called Abaddon who in the Greek tongue was called Apollyon. The sun god. He will be Satan's chief during the end times. He will make way for Satan to take the Antichrist spot. Now we get this story of this guy. Sounds like Apollyon at play to me. Trying to take worship from The Lord.
@@jakebarnes7262 My friend you've just demonstrated that you don't know Greek, so it's no surprise that you'd turn your nose up at an exhortation to use evidence and facts in defence of the faith. You're confusing "Apollyon", which means "Destruction", with "Apollo", which is the name of the Greek Sun god, and of uncertain origin and meaning. The two are in fact unrelated.
Please endeavour to get your facts right, and do not turn down the use of Historical evidence to support the truth of the Christian faith- our God is a God of Truth.
@@blackoutninja first off... I didn't turn my nose to anyone. I don't pretend to be the most educated person or criticize people for what they hold true. I was quoting the bible and added my own thoughts. I thank you for your correction on the Apollo comment. Upon further reading I see now I was wrong on him. They are not the same. Although the names are kinda similar and I got confused with that. As for evidence and defense of my faith I don't need it to make anyone believe in the Lord. It is a choice that was giving to me. I choose to believe because it's what I know to be true. I dont need to spend my time looking up evidence for the Lord when I know he's real and alive inside me. I dont have to nor do I want to waste my time reading or looking up proof of God when I have his book to teach me. I'm not on youtube trying to convert the masses into believing in God. Your belief and everyone else's is your choice. I don't care what you believe or anyone else. If you do great I'm not gonna try to change it. If you don't I'm not gonna try to change it. I commented only because I'm tired of hearing people ask for proof. If you can help me provide proof I'd be more than grateful.
"As to the divinity of Jesus, I think I shall find the answer after I'm dead, and with much less turmoil." ~ Benjamin Franklin
What a scary plan.
@@MikeWinger No fear.
I've heard several "stories " trying to debunk Yeshua by claiming "parallels" and christianity was stolen from some other belief. I pray for these folks.
Yeah I was one of those I didn't believe I was in the middle that there is a good but we just don't know... Regarding the Bible and the events that conspired I just cannot ignore it. God bless
Same bro Jesus is God end of story
Not claiming, it's the truth.
There is ample proof.... the NT even plagiarizes the Torah and rewrites characters to fit more modern times.
Noah's Flood was plagiarized from the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh which predates the Torah by 600 years.
Hanging Gardens in Babylon were the inspiration for the Garden of Eden.
@@haddenquebedeaux9546 ...despite the fact that Jesus says that he is not divine multiple times.
Keep up the good work Mike. Least God's word is getting to more places.
For me personally one of the first times I thought about God before coming to Christ was when an atheist friend posted a mocking video by Stephen fry and I kinda got me thinking a little more 😀
Think a little more and if you going to be a Christian just remember Christ isn't his name his name is Jesus the word Christ comes from Messiah or Mashiach meaning anointed one so everytime you just use the word Christ you just saying anointed one and I know people today that's anointed but you don't walk up call them Christ you call them by their name so think about that the next time you are anyone around you just uses the word Christ even if it is your pastor just ask him in all due respect are you offended by the name Jesus even when I was still believing the Made up Roman Catholic Church Jesus which is the one all of you believe in just so you know anyway it still bothered me then by the way I was raised in a APOSTOLIC PENTECOSTAL CHURCH just incase some of you maybe wonder well he may just need a little guidance yeah right lol but I LOVE GOD YA KNOW THE FATHER JESUS SPOKE OF YES THE ALMIGHTY GOD THE ONE AND ONLY. GOD BLESS ALL OF YOU AND MAY HE OPEN YOUR EYES AS HE HAS OPENED MINE AND PEACE BE WITH YOU ALL.
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
Galatians 2:20, KJV
@@justifiedfreelybyhisgrace1779 another message from the Roman citizen called SAUL and then Paul all my comments are about Paul and the difference between his teaching and Jesus so Paul isn't a good witness fact is Paul isn't even liked by the 12 disciples
@Alergeta Tofu I am very happy you asked that question I would like to respond with a link to a video you will find all the answers and see for yourself the differences. Again thank you for asking I will send the link immediately following this comment 😃
@Alergeta Tofu Paul state by no works of a human can man be saved but let me refer you to Revelation chapter 2 please read it all but notice what it said in veres 19-23 basically talking about Pauls salvation by faith alone and Remember Paul is the one that argued with the disciples about what they could or couldn't eat and that the law really didn't matter if was by faith in christ WELL ACCORDING TO THE BOOK OF REVELATION WHOSE SPEAKING TO JOHN? ALSO MY FAVORITE PART AND POINT VERSES 24-29 LET'S US KNOW JUST HOW HE FELT ABOUT THAT DOCTRINE IT'S NOT MY OPINION IT'S WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS AND OF COURSE GOD DOSEN'T CARE ABOUT OPINIONS HIS WORD IS TRUTH. MAY GOD BLESS YOU AND OPEN YOUR EYES TO THE TRUTH WE GENTILES FORGET JESUS WAS A JEW AND VERY EDUCATED ON THEIR BELIEFS IT AMAZING HOW ARROGANT THE GENTILES ARE TO THINK THEY KNOW THE ORIGINAL HEBREW WRITTEN WORD OF GOD BETTER THAN A HIGHLY EDUCATED RABI IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE JUST HOW MUCH DIFFERENCES THERE ARE IN OUR TRANSLATED OLD TESTAMENT VS THE ORIGINAL HEBREW VERSION PLEASE LOOK UP RABI TOVIA SINGER HE'S THE BEST THAT'S MY OPINION ON READING THE SCRIPTURES IN ENGLISH AND THEN IN HEBREW AND ALSO SHOWS THE WORDS LEFT OUT AND MOSTLY THE WORDS THAT ARE TRANSLATED INCORRECTLY. I WAS RAISED IN AN APOSTOLIC PENTECOSTAL CHURCH ALL MY LIFE AND ALWAYS WONDER WHY WOULDN'T THE JEWS BELIEVE IN JESUS WELL STUDY JUDAISM AND WHAT THE MESSIAH IS COMING TO FULFILL YOU WILL FIND JESUS DIDN'T FULFILL ONE THING BUT I ALSO KNOW NOW THAT JESUS REALLY NEVER CLAIMED TO BE THE MASHIACH (Matthew 24:4-5 ) TAKE HEED THAT NO MAN DECEIVE YOU FOR MANY SHALL COME IN MY NAME SAYING I AM CHRIST AND SHALL DECEIVE MANY. I KNOW YOU THINKING THAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT FALSE PROPHETS BUT HE'S NOT IN FACT HE COVERS THAT IN VERSE 11 ANOTHER POINT I'D LIKE TO MAKE IS WHAT DOES MESSIAH OR CHRIST MEAN? IT MEAN ANOINTED ONE AS IN ANOINTED WITH OIL AS THOUGH THE KINGS WERE BACK IN THOSE DAYS THE KINGS CLAIMED TO BE ANOINTED BY GOD POINT I'M MAKING IS JESUS BEING A JEW WOULD NEVER CLAIM TO BE GOD OR EQUAL TO THE FATHER EVEN THE VERSE (IF YOU SEEN ME THEN YOU SEEN THE FATHER ) THAT TO CAN BE EXPLAINED EASLEY JESUS KNEW THE TORAH VERY WELL AND IN GENESIS GOD SAID HE CREATED MAN IN HIS OWN IMAGE SO JESUS COULD'VE ANSWERED HAVEN'T YOU SEEN YOURSELF THEN YOU SEEN THE FATHER BECAUSE THE FATHER CREATED US ALL IN HIS IMAGE. SO WHAT I'M SAYING IS AS A JEWISH RABI OR TEACHER AND THAT HE REALLY WAS HE NEVER CLAIMED TO BE THE FATHER (GOD) OR EQUAL TO FATHER AND HE DIDN'T CLAIM TO BE WHAT JEW CALL THE MASHIACH THE ONE COMING TO RESTORE THE JERUSALEM AND BRING THE JEWS BACK TO THE PROMISE LAND AND BRING THE WHOLE WORLD TO BELIEVE IN THE GOD OF ABRAHAM AND PEACE WOULD COVER THE WHOLE WORLD HE WILL RULE FROM THE TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM THAT IS THE DESCRIPTION OF THE JEWISH MASHIACH THAT IS WHY SAID MANY WILL COME IN MY NAME SAYING I AM CHRIST AND WILL DECEIVE MANY
I don't understand why people are so against Jesus. But it gives me an insight on what the Pharisees may have felt about Him.
Also, thinking about it, the many Jesus-type stories actually don't make me doubt Jesus. They make me see Jesus as God correcting the previous 'messiah' lies.
'Mom, can we have Jesus?'
'We have Jesus at home.'
'Jesus' at home:
Blasphemer
I think you may have missed the main point that detractors have when bringing up the story of Apollonius. I dont think they are saying the details are identical as they clearly are not. They just are highlighting the fact that these types of stories are not by any means unique as shown by comparing the stories of Isis in Egyptian mythology and the Virgin Mary. Furthermore if you type in miraculous births in wikipedia you will find tons of similar virgin birth stories from around the world. Everyone should draw their own conclusions from reading them.
No, the point in tactics such as those used by Ehrman and discussed here, is to paint Apollonius as closely as possible to Jesus (using dishonest representations) so that the revelation will shock Christians into questioning the uniquness of Jesus.
Please read any pre-Christian description of the birth of Horus to Isis, and tell me it is strikingly similar to anything in the Gospel account. I don't remember anyone in the Bible being killed and cut into pieces so that Mary had to gather the parts, use magic on the corpse to ranimate (not fully resurrect. Osiris was basically an intelligent zombie) him so that she could copulate with him before the corpse was claimed as belonging to the realm of the dead, thus being impregnated. Please, point out all the similarities and parallels.
This kind of nonsense was debunked years ago. Most of the pagan material people cite is either taken from the mystery cults that actually came into vogue after the time of Christ so that any dependence would require dependence of the pagan material on Christian ideas rather than the opposite, or the older layers of pagan myth that prove to not be nearly so closely paralleled as some people like to pretend. Like Ehrman's "parallels," they just don't actually exist if you look at them closely at all.
Good job
As a Christian, this story doesn't scare me one bit because everything that Gids prophets who came before Jesus told of their Messiah coming just exactly how Jesus came to the world, even though most of His own people rejected his divinity. God spoke to these prophets and He fulfilled the prophecies perfectly, proving that He is the only true God and that Jesus is the promised Messiah, the Son of God.
I haven’t seen Carrier mention Apolonius of Tyana. He usually mentions Romulus, Inanna, Osiris, and Zalmoxos.
I think the pastor here is mainly talking about Bart Ehrman as far as Apollonius is concerned, and only lumps Carrier in with Ehrman on a broader basis of 'academics defending a mythicist point of view' or some similar generalization. That part didn't strike me as particularly disingenuous.
Wow,you talked for 56 minutes 41 seconds and didn't drink no water???? Awesome mate 🤘🤙🙏👌👏😺
If anyone in the history of RUclips needed a clip channel, it is you my brother. 😂 Every video is so long and your pacing for some reason doesn’t keep me hooked like when I’m watching other history videos that are an hour long. I’m just one person making an observation. But your videos are very insightful…and I also have ADD 😂😂😂God bless
6 hours of content??? Over 1 guy??? That’s awesome!! I love you Mike! Stay at it!! God is on the side of Truth!! @ atheists...I, for one, am praying that your eyes and ears will be opened. 🙏🏼
Man I wish you lived closer to me, I would so love to attend your church and sit in on your lessons.
The killer for the "Apollonius parallel" idea is that Apollonius comes *after* the time of Christ, and his first biography is published over a century after his death. So any story about Apollonius is more likely to be attempting to parallel Christ than stories of Christ to parallel Apollonius. It is simply otiose to attempt to deflate Christ by comparison with Apollonius.
I’m only 20 minutes in but I had to pause and write that I think it’s ironic Winger accuses Ehrman of deceptive framing and then goes on to dismiss the “son of god” parallel as a Jewish vs Greek dichotomy.
There’s plenty of evidence that the gospels are at least influenced by Hellenistic literature, and compelling (to me at least) parallels between The Bacchae, The Odyssey and other foundational Greek works. If viewed as a synthesis between Greek and Jewish thought, Christianity appears like other Hellenistic mystery cults of the time period.
It's as if they're grasping at straws to refute the Truth.
".. and it doesn't mean that I'm *right* about everything. I might learn that I've got some things wrong". 💜
Love it! 🙂👏👏👏
"It's not agreed that it's biography. It very well may be considered novel, where it's a story meant to inspire belief... not based on historical truth"
Yeah that sounds nothing like the gospels at all!
I smell sarcasm...but your statement is completely correct. The gospels are agreed to be biography, where the books on Apollonius may just be a story. You don't have to believe the gospels, but they are clearly written as biography. They are meant to inspire belief, but only because the events that are recorded are...well...records of what actually happened.
@@christopherwalls4337 there is a high degree of correlation between the generic features of Graeco-Roman Bioi and those of the synoptic gospels; in fact, they exhibit more of the features than are shown by works at the edges of the genre, such as those of Isocrates, Xenophon and Philostratus.
@@xxxmmm3812 why could there be only one side or the other?
l mean, why Apollonius must not be divine and just be a man?
Maybe he actually was Jesus himself.
Maybe it's the truth.
In this case, there is no argument that the atheists could use.
Just saying.
l mean, maybe this is the reason why the DNA in the tomb of Jesus in Jerusalem is not being tested.Because maybe he is Greek and he should keep on being considered worldwide to be a Jew.
Why do they not test a DNA sample and they keep his grave shut?
@@pop-n-rock have u heard of the shroud of Turin go search that out Jews was a Jews full fleshed Jew
@@philosophersbench6595 I will but still the question remains, why not get a DNA sample. The evidence could be found in his grave, this is what the scientists and historians should search.
"...Along came a man who was (totally) lame, (bro.)" Fixed part of the translation.
Hellenists loved to pull bits and pieces out of Christianity and Judaism to write these sprawling epics and, in turn, modern skeptics love to pull bits and pieces of Hellenism (the Greek-ification of every other culture) to call Christianity a counterfeit. I think the New Testament would call that “willfully ignorant” ie. dumb on purpose.
Mike, I have been so blessed by your videos and hard work recently! I seek to live my life for J while living in Asia, and also feel like your videos have left me feeling like I’m standing on even more SOLID ground-so great! May God lead you to know what to do with all the video responses that have popped up.
I would really love to know your thoughts toward the 17 part podcast series called “God” from the Bible Project people. There’s DEFINITELY some good stuff in there, but starting from the third podcast, they run with ideas on Nephilim. I would really appreciate your perspective!
A side note: I very much like your point about it being easy to cherry pick facts within so many in such a long story to suit the narratives though.
Just like Christians cherry pick verses
@@HistoryandReviews Some do, some don't. I do my best not to. Anybody who does it intentionally to try and twist the word has sinned.
What scares Christians, is when a man of God ask God to appear and Jesus appears. But he doesn't appear to Christians. Gospel of Timothy
The 4 Gospels are Greek in nature, follow Hellenistic thought, were written in Greek. The area and cities Jesus frequented were founded by Greeks. The divergence comes from Paul. Christianity is Paulianism.
Also Apolonious was a priest of Asclepious. So was Hippocrates...
"Love the closest to you little more than yourself" Thalis the Militian
"Achieve to see your worst enemy as your closest friend with the same love" Socrates
"Molossian dog"
Ooh, i know this one!
The molossians were a tribe known for breeding massive war dogs, most likely comparable to modern mastiffs. The romans were known for using them on the battlefield.
Seriously?
I have the Spirit of Christ in me. I know Him. No one can deceive me away from Him.
Bart claimed he was once a born again believer. I asked him, "how can one have the Spirit of Christ in them and not know Jesus lives?"
Bart never knew Jesus. He does not believe in the Father either.
Great stuff! Who has so painstakingly worked to make sure to conceal the existence of Apollonious of Tyana?
you would be amazed how often these works , just like many of the "old manuscripts' the RCC "discover' from time to time are forgeries created by the jesuits
if you know how the jesuits operate you know satan
Dnt worry what " myths " are... just fables...
Keep up the good work...God bless...
One thing that must be remembered is that there are prophecies that foretell the birth, life and death of Jesus some dating as far back as the garden of eden approximately 4000 BC. It is no surprise that the enemy would try to counterfeit.
Oh my gosh, what is this story?!😄 This is beyond different from the story of Jesus!!!! Thanks so much for this video lol
😂😂😂...like what?? And this is their best example.