Why I Think Calvinism Is Unbiblical
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- Опубликовано: 22 июл 2024
- I present this in Christian brotherhood to my fellow believers. Expand this description for TIME STAMPS for the video...
I am not intending to attack or misrepresent Calvinism but to offer an honest biblical critique of what I see as one of the major pillars in Calvinism. I welcome responses and encourage them to stay on topic and to focus on clear exegesis. However, if a comment or response ignores what I am saying and how I am building my case biblically I probably won't give it much time.
Links you may be interested in
My video on predestination and election - • Calvinism, Arminianism...
My video on a non-Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9 - • Prosperity Preachers D...
My video on why God hardens hearts - • Why God Hardens Hearts...
TIME STAMPS donated by Anne L (thank you Anne!)
0:00 - INTRO. Emphasizing: Bible focused discussion, "family" discussion. Explaining the discussion´s structure (Scriptures. Calvinists´ quotes. Proving point that a central pillar of Calvinism is biblically wrong. Questions and Answers session)
2:39 - Topic/Question discussed in this Live Stream: "Is faith a work" - what does the Bible say & does Calvinism teach faith as work
3.38 - PART I: "WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY"
Bible verses: Romans 3:20 ff, especially 3:27. 4:1-6; 4:13-16. Galatians 2:16 (minute 10:00), 3:5-6. Key points established: Bible contrasts work with faith, justification by faith vs work-righteousness, one rules out the other
11:53 - Conclusion: "Faith equals grace; faith equals ´no boasting´; faith equals `all credit to God`"
12:13 - "why am I covering this topic?"
13:14 - Re-stating conclusions from Bible verses above
14:16 - PART II: "HOW DOES CALVINISM TREAT FAITH AS WORK""
14:25 - quote of R.C. Sproul on Monergism & Synergism (important concepts for the Calvinist/Non-Calvinist debate)
17:29 - the relation/ use of M. and S. in regard to salvation
18:03 - Calvinist take on Monergism and how faith when viewed as a free choice based, decision-making act is defined as being synergism. "You did some of the work"
18:29 - first clear disagreement: Bible verses just proved faith is not a work
19:13 - intro to James White´s take on the Monergism/Synergism topic
19:51 - uninterrupted excerpt of James White video statement
20:53- commentary on J. White´s statement; mentioning also classic synergist beliefs such as JWs, Mormons, Islam and Catholicism and their grace plus works bottom-line
22:50 - White´s use of the concept of Synergism in regard to faith ("in believing I´m doing some of the saving") unbiblical
26:05 - R.C. Sproul junior twofold quote on "Is faith a work"; commentary
28:35 - reformationtheology.com quote on "is faith a work"; commentary
31:55 - going through the online "TULIP test" and why it is misleading
37:56 - going through Calvinists´ answers to Mike´s FB and Twitter account poll:
a) "Do you consider faith to be a work in the sense that it merits anything?"
b) "If not then how can a non-Calvinist position be considered synergism?"
47:35 - PART III: Q&A SESSION (addressing objections from Calvinist audience first)
short comments on Acts 13:48; John 6:44; Peter 2:8
52:40 - responding to reader´s suggestion to have a debate with James White
53:24 - responding to comment "I am a Calvinist and never heard that faith is a work"
54:00 - short comments on Ephesians 2:8; Matthew 16:17
59:40 - on the importance of pastors and teachers handling Scripture verses sincerely (a call for integrity)
1:00:23 - the "dead in trespasses" point and Lazarus analogy
1:02:50 - quick recap of objections
1:03:53 - questions from Non-Calvinist readers
reader´s question: What does sufficiency of Scriptures mean, not mean
1:06:11 - reader´s question: Is Calvinism dangerous
1:07:30 - answering reader´s plead to exegete "the golden chain of redemption" in Rom. 8:28-30
1:08:06 - reader´s question: Do you believe in "once saved, always saved"
1:09:35 - summing up what the video is about when reading another Calvinist asking "Isn´t faith a work when we have the choice to believe or not?"
1:11:17 - "Do I want you to change from Calvinist to Non-Calvinist"
1:11:45 - OUTRO. Topic of next week´s livestream: the "Passion" translation. Appeal to listen to and learn from each other as a healthy Christian thing to do. Mike informing that he won´t be able time-wise to respond to comments apart from the first hours post-stream. Welcoming Calvinists to share opinion. Blessings
Expand this comment for TIME STAMPS to various parts of this video. (after a brief clarification from me)
Do you think I'm distorting Calvinism or misrepresenting it? Please read this before commenting.
I think it may be that you don’t understand what I’m saying. Here are the two positions are as I see it.
Calvinist view: faith is not a work of man because God does it (in either initiating the will or just giving faith to the person). However, if God were not to give faith and man simply chose to believe (even with some aid from God) it would now be a work that gives man some measure of glory for his salvation. In other words the Calvinist says “we view faith as a work if it is helped along by a free choice of man wherein man could have chosen otherwise”. Therefore, Calvinists believe that non-Calvinists are promoting human works when they say that faith is chosen by people who could have chosen otherwise.
Non-Calvinist view - faith is not a work. No matter what the Calvinist says, faith is not a work. In response to the work of the Holy Spirit I chose to believe and could have chosen not to believe and this is in no way a work.
You are projecting your view onto the non-Calvinist when you say that faith is a work in the non-Calvinist view. It is not. Just ask the non-Calvinist if faith is a work in their view and they will say “no”. Then you may respond “but it is a work in the way you describe having it as a free choice wherein you could have chosen otherwise.” And they will say “Not in my view. That is your view.”
TIME STAMPS donated by Anne L (thank you Anne!)
0:00 - INTRO. Emphasizing: Bible focused discussion, "family" discussion. Explaining the discussion´s structure (Scriptures. Calvinists´ quotes. Proving point that a central pillar of Calvinism is biblically wrong. Questions and Answers session)
2:39 - Topic/Question discussed in this Live Stream: "Is faith a work" - what does the Bible say & does Calvinism teach faith as work
3.38 - PART I: "WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY"
Bible verses: Romans 3:20 ff, especially 3:27. 4:1-6; 4:13-16. Galatians 2:16 (minute 10:00), 3:5-6. Key points established: Bible contrasts work with faith, justification by faith vs work-righteousness, one rules out the other
11:53 - Conclusion: "Faith equals grace; faith equals ´no boasting´; faith equals `all credit to God`"
12:13 - "why am I covering this topic?"
13:14 - Re-stating conclusions from Bible verses above
14:16 - PART II: "HOW DOES CALVINISM TREAT FAITH AS WORK""
14:25 - quote of R.C. Sproul on Monergism & Synergism (important concepts for the Calvinist/Non-Calvinist debate)
17:29 - the relation/ use of M. and S. in regard to salvation
18:03 - Calvinist take on Monergism and how faith when viewed as a free choice based, decision-making act is defined as being synergism. "You did some of the work"
18:29 - first clear disagreement: Bible verses just proved faith is not a work
19:13 - intro to James White´s take on the Monergism/Synergism topic
19:51 - uninterrupted excerpt of James White video statement
20:53- commentary on J. White´s statement; mentioning also classic synergist beliefs such as JWs, Mormons, Islam and Catholicism and their grace plus works bottom-line
22:50 - White´s use of the concept of Synergism in regard to faith ("in believing I´m doing some of the saving") unbiblical
26:05 - R.C. Sproul junior twofold quote on "Is faith a work"; commentary
28:35 - reformationtheology.com quote on "is faith a work"; commentary
31:55 - going through the online "TULIP test" and why it is misleading
37:56 - going through Calvinists´ answers to Mike´s FB and Twitter account poll:
a) "Do you consider faith to be a work in the sense that it merits anything?"
b) "If not then how can a non-Calvinist position be considered synergism?"
47:35 - PART III: Q&A SESSION (addressing objections from Calvinist audience first)
short comments on Acts 13:48; John 6:44; Peter 2:8
52:40 - responding to reader´s suggestion to have a debate with James White
53:24 - responding to comment "I am a Calvinist and never heard that faith is a work"
54:00 - short comments on Ephesians 2:8; Matthew 16:17
59:40 - on the importance of pastors and teachers handling Scripture verses sincerely (a call for integrity)
1:00:23 - the "dead in trespasses" point and Lazarus analogy
1:02:50 - quick recap of objections
1:03:53 - questions from Non-Calvinist readers
reader´s question: What does sufficiency of Scriptures mean, not mean
1:06:11 - reader´s question: Is Calvinism dangerous
1:07:30 - answering reader´s plead to exegete "the golden chain of redemption" in Rom. 8:28-30
1:08:06 - reader´s question: Do you believe in "once saved, always saved"
1:09:35 - summing up what the video is about when reading another Calvinist asking "Isn´t faith a work when we have the choice to believe or not?"
1:11:17 - "Do I want you to change from Calvinist to Non-Calvinist"
1:11:45 - OUTRO. Topic of next week´s livestream: the "Passion" translation. Appeal to listen to and learn from each other as a healthy Christian thing to do. Mike informing that he won´t be able time-wise to respond to comments apart from the first hours post-stream. Welcoming Calvinists to share opinion. Blessings
Mike Winger
Quote from from your pinned...
"I choose to believe and could have chosen not to."
Mike,
Who's the subject
doing the action
of the verb... to then
get the result of the action???
....To then go one step further and reiterate how your example refutes your position
"I could have chosen not to"
...So those who do not perform this action get the opposite of the action you performed.
Please forgive my reemphasis of this video again, but for you to not see this, has seriously erroneous implications for you. Your self-contradicting here and it's plain for everyone to see. Please pray to keep from going down this path.
Mike Winger
There is another famous "I" monologue in the Bible, and it's the same type of boasting that this is...
A mountain climber tells a child on the Yosemite Valley floor, I know you can’t make it up the face of El Capitan on your own, but I can help you. The child asks, Oh you mean you’ll show me the ropes and guide me along the best route? The climber says, No, I’ll take you on my back. The child says, I dunno, I’m scared! The climber says, Well, I’ve done it before. Do you trust me? The child says, Yes I trust you. So the climber straps the kid on his back and climbs to the summit.
How much work did the child do? How much credit can he claim? In what or whom can he boast?
snippletrap
Except for the child hates the mountain climber and the climb causes the child to relinquish everything and Hate what he loves. Because the mountain climber reiterates saying, "if anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother why children brothers and sister even their own life you cannot come with me.'
To know the difference in the bloody price of all that is within a person's ontological propensity, and make this kind of comparison borderlines disingenuous. Which is the problem with modern Christianity. The laodicean church. This is not a warm child story with a nice mountain climber and a child wanting to go to the top of a mountain. This is the bloody sacrifice of the mountain climber while the child is delusionally abusing and running from the mountain climber. Just in knowing the death and sacrifice that we, even having a Bible as freely as we do, costs us is another aspect of the hatred man has for God.
Scott Carter
Nathan Hood
None of what you said proves that there is anything to boast about if faith is a freewill choice or that faith is a work. You are the one that is begging the question that all choices in life are works based on nothing in the Bible, but your own definition of what a work is and what someone can boast about. As we have shown, we Arminians/Molinists/etc can show many decisions in life are NOT works and do NOT justify any boasting. So your definition does not reflect common sense reality or anything in scripture.
Here's an example based on a Bible story. The Good samaritan represents Christians treating neighbors correctly even if we were enemies, but we are also imitating Christ in this. Suppose the Good Samaritan has taken the left-for-dead Jew to the inn, and then the Jew wakes up and says "thanks for nothing, you dirty Samaritan. I don't trust you people!" and leaves. He goes back to his Jewish friends, which happen to include the Levite who passed him, and mocks samaritans and says he'll never trust any of them and has nothing to thank any of them.
Did the Jew in this scenario have anything to boast about if he had thanked the Samaritan and repented of his hate towards samaritans? No. You might have even found my hypothetical funny because it seems no sane, real person would get up, reject kindness and mock someone who saved their life.
Again, just another example how the choice to repent and trust is not a work. You are only condemned for rejecting such a wonderful gift. Similar to the good samaritan, Jesus died to save us from eternal damnation while we were still his enemies. There is no boasting in accepting such a wonderful and undeserved gift, only condemnation is justly deserved for those who love their own ways and refuse to acknowledge and put faith in Jesus' work. God still gets all the glory, and we're not left to wonder how God received glory for the eternal condemnation of some, because it is evident someone who rejects such loving mercy shown to them deserves condemnation.
And again, I've yet to hear a single Calvinist 1) refute how 1 John 2:2 teaches Christ's atonement for all, and 2) give ANY scripture supporting limited atonement. Isn't that a deal-breaker?
I don't call myself a Calvinist, but I was an aggresive atheist who God chose and gave me miraculous faith to believe. I never felt I had the option to choose otherwise, I was just changed. My faith was not a work it was another wonderful gift of God.
To Chris Lockett
Beautifully stated 👍🙂. After the Fall , everyone Born was born entirely in the Flesh, otherwise known, as this body of death, via the apostle Paul. It's madness to entertain the thought that you or I, can choose, in savings Faith, of our own will, the Lord's Gospel. Ain't gonna happen 🥴. God's Holy Spirit, must first do some serious interior renovations within us, some would go so far as to say complete resurrection. Before there's any hope at all, of anyone embracing the Gospel.
You heard the word? You don't think the Holy Spirit played a role in the conviction of sin to turn you to God?
@@AnyaOshuaHi Anya, I think you have misunderstood my meaning. What I wrote it is saying that my salvation was nothing to do with my efforts, but was all the work of God. Which means the Holy Spirit altered my belief from atheism to Jesus Christ as my Saviour
Kind regards Chris
@@AnyaOshua Hi Anya, I'm sorry I think I misunderstood what you wrote. I was totally changed in my world view, not really convicted of sin until I began to understand how much Christ had suffered for me. I realised that the thought of taking my punishment had caused him to sweat blood in the garden. Taking his Father's wrath for me caused him so much anguish to burst blood vessels in his head. That realisation made me understand how evil and vile I was and still am!
What love, beyond my understanding.
Kind regards Chris
Exactly!
As I listen to these discussions, I understand why God stresses unity so much. A common problem with young calvinists/non-calvinists is that they start saying the other side is not saved and become just nasty to each other. Suddenly salvation is not by Grace anymore but by theological positions.
"It is no novelty, then, that I am preaching; no new doctrine. I love to proclaim these strong old doctrines, that are called by nickname Calvinism, but which are surely and verily the revealed truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus." -Charles Spurgeon
Unity is so important that every denomination should be begging each other "there must be a way ti sit down and resolve the scriptural differences " as opposed to "there must be a way for you to see things my way".
@@rprestarri That's a great quote! Spurgeon was a wonderful man of God!
Each kind produces after its own.
The calvanist are just doing like there father john Calvin did. He was a murder and they do like wise by murdering there brothers and sisters character.
@@travishowett7651 and some Lutherans murdered some Anabaptists and the Catholic church murdered many hinting protestants in Germany.
The vast majority of Calvanists, Lutherans, and Catholics are of course not murderers. All three institutions managed to produce not murderers despite their own murdering.
And Calvin was the one who gets the credit for his death because he recognized him whilst he was on the lamb. He was branded a heretic by the Catholic church and Catholics had been trying to get to killing him but couldn't. All of which was tragically legal in the day.
Seems like there was plenty of murderin' goin around
I've always equated it to someone buying me a present. They take the time to shop and pick out the perfect gift, spend their own money, make sure to wrap it perfectly, write a thoughtful card, and give it to me.
Whether I accept or reject that gift, they CLEARLY did all the work. I have nothing to boast about. No one would ever in a million years give me any credit for the thoughtful gift I received.
Calvinists would say that you opening the gift itself is where you became Synergistic in the whole process lol. Only way it would be Monergistic is if they opened the gift for you that they bought and wrapped hahaha
or maybe when you extend out your arms to receive it that's the synergistic part lol
Huh, that's actually a great analogy
Not EXEGESIS...Analogesis!....all you synergistic people to squirm out of the CLEAR testimony of scripture!!!
@@PizzaFvngs
Here is a line of reasoning for you to try
1) Humility is something you can work on.
2) Someone needs humility to accept Jesus
3) People reject Jesus because they are proud
4) So people are not saved, because they have not done the work to humble themselves.
5) Therefore we cannot logically separate faith & works if human agency is needed for Salvation
The TULIP test thing felt a bit sinister to me. Didn't Jesus leave us with the Great Commission? What motivation/push would we have to spread the Gospel if He did not in fact die for the entire world?
I never understood the Calvinist position that free will is an affront to God's sovereignty. John Macarthur says it's hubris to think we deserve free will. And he's right, but I don't think we deserve it, just like we don't deserve salvation. Doesn't mean God didn't give it to us while simultaneously retaining His sovereignty. Paradoxes don't phase God, just our tiny minds.
I don't think it's a paradox. If you have a king, and say for instance a duke below him, just because the duke manages his territory does not mean the king is not sovereign. The king could very well choose when and if he interferes with how the duke governs his duchy, but just because he chooses not to, does not make him any less sovereign.
Where is freewill taught in the Bible?
@@johng290by the fact we are called to Love the Lord. Can you force anything to Love something?
@@captainkrajick in this body of flesh were commanded to love because it’s not what we “want” to do naturally. In our fallen nature we desire to rebel. Paul struggled as we do because we are in these bodies corrupted by sin.
“Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?”
We love him, because he first loved us.
The love is not forced. It’s like saying can you be forced to be made alive. It’s a work done by God to us. WE DON’T DO IT TO OURSELVES!!!! Lazarus come forth. Do you think Lazarus did that by his own free will? If you were blind walking around with a seeing stick sunglasses on and your eyes wide open and God commanded that you see. Is that “forced” on you or just a by product of Him healing you? God does ALL of the work. We are just the recipients of His work.
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace
Abraham was chosen. The disciples were chosen.
If you believe in “free will” then stop sinning. When you can do that I’ll believe from your position. God is sovereign, He alone chooses the bride.
@@johng290 To answer your first question, man's choice (I won't use the term "free will" because that carries other connotations that I'm not arguing for) is found in Matthew 23, in Jesus's lament over Jerusalem.
"How often *I would* have gathered your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and *you would not.* " He didn't say "You could not." He didn't say, "I ordained that you would not." He simply said, "You would not." An equally accurate translation is "You were not willing." I think you'll agree that Jesus is God, so if Jesus is lamenting tearfully over Jerusalem's refusal of Him, then God Himself is lamenting over their refusal. A refusal they chose, not that God foreordained so they could be passed over for judgement.
I don't understand what is going on here. I've been an adherent of Reformed Theology for 20 years and never have I heard anyone in our camp refer to faith has a work. Even our faith is a gift from God so that no one should boast.
To add some clarity, here are three points to parse out the issue:
1) In the Calvinist view, since no one can choose to respond to the Gospel apart from God's sovereign empowering it in the first place, "faith" is not a work.
2) However, in the non-Calvinist view, though the Gospel is God's free gift and can't be earned, faith is the free, human response to God's grace. They do not consider it a work either.
BUT
3) In reading point #2 above, the Calvinist would say that if humans are able to freely choose to believe the Gospel-apart from God's sovereign empowerment)-that would constitute a work and therefore the non-Calvinist believes in a works-based salvation.
In sum, the issue is a disagreement on the definition about what constitutes a work. It's not that Calvinists (as you pointed out) believe faith is a work, it is that they think non-Calvinists think so.
Hope that helps.
Read the book "The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism" by Ken Wilson, to see the history of the doctrine.
erom1970 I have.
N Baird you guys redefine words, like every other cult out there, they twist meanings to confuse, to coheres. God is sovereign yet He gives to man free will for He Himself has free will and we are made in His Image. If it wasn’t, it wouldn’t be a free choice. I think the Bible teaches both. Like David not going from one extreme to another. But be it as it may, lordship salvation is heresy and works based: its another gospel starting with grace and ending with works is heresy!
SpotterVideo Dr. James White thoroughly refuted Ken Wilson’s book on his YT channel. Pure assertion with no substance.
"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."
Revelation 3:20
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:44 ESV
@@BisterBoxIs it not possible that everyone is drawn in a way and can choose to reject? john 12:48 says “The one who rejects Me and does not receive My words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day."
People make salvation sound so complicated, so far above my head that I was scared to even make an attempt to get to know God for a long time. I’ve been saved 5 years now and I’ve yet to find one group I completely agree with 100% of the time. I simply read the Bible and listen to preachers that do stick to scripture and that preaches the true gospel. Period. I think if we’re not careful we can drive people away by making the things of God sound so out of our reach and so complicated and so above our pay grade that they sometimes walk away. I always remind myself of the thief in the cross. He simply said Remember me Lord when you come into your kingdom. And Jesus replied today, you will be with me in paradise. And if most Christian’s were asked if a man said those words just before he died in the electric chair, could he be saved, most would give 10 different intricate reasons why he couldn’t. You all also forget that a lot of us have no clue what some of the words used regularly by apologists mean. Calvinism, reformed, orthodox, trinitarian the list goes on and on. It can be overwhelming to anyone. But a newer Christian or an unbeliever that’s just starting to search the word is really going to be overloaded. So what is it called when you simply believe the simplest or most obvious meaning of a verse ir scripture? When you believe what it says and your beliefs seem to be a hodgepodge of several different views ir denominations?
@maleanewborn9073 I love your comment and question. I think you help to bring us all down to earth. You make us remember that Jesus cherishes the thing we all should strive for and that is "child like faith". Thank you!
You are simply a follower of Christ. No need for denominations to "justify" your faith :)
The amazing thing is that if you're a Christian, you are a child of God. That's your identity. And we can do our "exploration" of our faith in the security of that. We can paddle in the shallows and dive in the deep. I think there's a quotation about the Gospel, that it's so simple a child can understand it and so profound that the deepest minds can't fully grasp it. And there's so much to know and learn, it's wonderful. But know that your salvation doesn't depend on how well you can understand it or articulate it. It is Jesus who saves you, not your own grasp of the matter.
@Vic82toire I needed this explanation so badly. I had a huge fear about this.
yeah im someone who would get lumped into the label of a calvinist and i must say for the person who has scruples or is new to the faith, they should just focus on trusting in Christ, studying the scripture and receiving the sacraments
As a five pointer it's refreshing to hear you say that it's a family issue. Too many times people don't say this. I believe there are saved people on both sides of the fence. Thank you
Welp, then you're the first Calvinist I have ever heard say this.....
I agree. Make that two calvinists
@@nikkio.9990 Then I think you don't know many Calvinists. Arminianism is a heresy according to Dordt, that doesn't mean that we conclude that you aren't saved because your doctrine is wrong.
@@Phill0old There are people saved from all religions in the world. Not because of their belief system, but in spite of their belief system.
@@Baltic_Hammer6162 Exactly. All they must believe is that He is the Christ. Who is saying anything other than that? Not me. We are discussing how and why that happens.
All I know is, you cannot earn it.
Bingo! I tried to figure out what to do to earn salvation for years... one evening it occurred to me very clearly.
The moment after I stated,
“There’s nothing I can do, so I give it all to you.”
the Holy Spirit breathed upon and within me. Lifting my head along with all the weight of sin. Freedom. Peace. All glory to the LORD! By his blood redeemed!
This thought of the choice as a work needs more depth. This idea basically boasts about their choice, thus owning their own salvation. A decision is not a work. There are plenty of verses about who is the author and finisher. We are blessed to be given the ability to choose! That is love.
@@coryanderson5210 I can't tell if I backslid or if I'm a false convert. I became "saved" March 2020 I used to be passionate now I don't repent struggling with sin my fruit is bad but then I hear people say sanctification is a process so do we get spiritual fruit immediately? I'm depressed confused and hopeless. There's no hope for me.
JesusMyLordandSavior (I'M A GIRL) Even the oldest, most accomplished Christian you know struggles with sin daily. Your spiritual great great great etc grandpa Paul called himself the worst of sinners.
Is Jesus real? Is the Father real? Is the Spirit in you, speaking to you? Then you are saved. That's the easy part. The hard part is cleansing ourselves of worldly thinking and identity.
Amen!
@@TheLightShines my whole walk with the Lord has looked like this. I have been saved for years. I get depressed and bad fruit because I am focusing on myself and my feelings. But I am always reminded that God's grace is ALWAYS provided to me. God is working in your life and it is simply shown through the fact you are thinking about him. Push through those feelings. You will come out of this. God knows your human, sinful body is weak. But he still pursues you. Keep running the race.
I have recently started following Costi Hinn after seeing American Gospel. Then I realized his church is 30 minutes from me, so we started to attend. I have been following you, Mike for about a year! I have come out of 50 years of Word of Faith and Prosperity Gospel because of you both (and others who were in American Gospel).
But now I’m finding out about that Costi and Justin Peters (whom I also love) are supporting Calvinist theology and cessationism.
I would love to hear a respectful conversation about these topics between you and Costi!
One thing I have learned is I don’t have to be mad at either of you! ❤😊
If I hadn't been presented the gospel, and chosen to repent and believe what I was told, I would never have been saved. Thank you for your work, Pastor Winger!
Faith comes by hearing of the word! Amen!
We have to hear the Gospel yes - but it I’d God who works in us and gives us the gift of faith it is by grace - not a work. We do not choose But God chooses us! Election. @@meganmarbury26
1. Is there only one god, or are there multiple gods? If multiple, how is a person to choose which deserves obedience? If there is only one good, who is Baal? If Baal is a false god, precisely what makes your god NOT false, aside from it telling you that is the case?
2. Would you agree that before anything can exist, something has to create it?
Did your god create everything? If yes, who/what created your god?
3. Is your god infallible?
4. Is your god omnipotent?
5. Is your god omniscient?
6. Is your god benevolent, or malicious?
7. If your god cannot make mistakes, then it follows that everything it creates is either perfect, or that your god intentionally makes things that are flawed. Would a benevolent god intentionally create something likely to suffer because of its flaws?
8. If your god can do anything, and it created the universe, why didn't it simply create a perfect world inhabited by perfect beings? If your god wanted obedience, and god is not malicious, why did god make disobedience possible?
9. If your god knows everything, does it already understand every thought and feeling you have? Does it instantaneously know everything you say and do? If yes, what is the point of religious rituals, such as prayer?
10. Why would an omnipotent and omniscient god not communicate directly and unambiguously with individuals, with no need of books, churches, prophets, signs, miracles, etc?
If a person is not intelligent enough, or not "worthy" enough to speak directly with god, whose fault is that? Who made the person in the first place? If a person is unworthy or incapable of directly communicating with god, how can that person be capable of recognizing a valid spokesperson for god?
11. Think about the person/people who convinced/persuaded/ordered you to believe in a version of god. Are they infallible? Is it at all possible for them to tell you something they sincerely believe, but for that thing they tell you to be actually incorrect?
12. Are feelings reliable tools to guide actions?
Suppose I hear a person in my neighborhood talking a lot about the presence of violent break in robberies nearby, and I get apprehensive. I am convinced by the passion my neighbor puts into this story, even though I've seen no tangible evidence.
That night, I hear a noise. I FEEL certain that it is a robber breaking in to harm my family. I get out of bed, pull a pistol from the bedside table. Without opening the bedroom door, I shoot through it to get the robber. When I open the door, there is my son, lying dead on the floor from my bullet.
I was sure. I relied on my feelings. My fear of a robber. My hope of being a defender father. Feelings, not facts. Was that a good way to live my life?
Is faith factual knowledge or is it just a feeling, something you choose to believe, without any rational proof?
There are things science does not yet have good explanations for. However, unlike religion, logic and science eagerly accept doubt, challenges and skepticism, and are eager to be revised and improved. They don't claim to be perfect. Religion does.
Religion demands blind obedience, with harsh horrific punishment in this world and the next if you fail to obey. If you ignore science, it doesn't change the facts of science, so no one has to threaten you about it.
Science built the machine you are reading this message on. Religion blows up clinics and puts burning crosses on people's lawns. Religion persecutes and murders and starts centuries of war.
Religion rapes little kids, then covers it up. Religion tells underage girls they have to get married and have kids like a farm animal slave. Religion is about ignorance and enslavement and threats and judging others for being different. Religion is about cowardly conformity. Religion is about keeping people UNquestioning and OBEDIENT, aka, slaves.
Science is about rational independent thought.
14. Do you deny that religion (superstition, irrational behavior) is the root cause of most human conflict in history, that for centuries millions have been tortured and murdered "because god told me to do it"?
13. Suppose a person has a book full of maps to guide a group journey. They rely upon it, but the group is perpetually lost.
You question the book, but your friend insists that the book is accurate.
"How do you know?" you ask.
They reply, "I know that this book is accurate and perfect, because it says so in the book."
Your friend insists that the book is information directly from god....but some other people wrote the book, based on their interpretations, and all of them disagree.....but that is okay, because of how passionately they shout about their version of the maps, and how strongly it makes your friend feel.
When you show them hundreds of self contradictions in the book, they get upset and say that you are just not reading the book correctly.
Which person is messed up? You, or the book fanatic?
How do you justify cherry picking of which parts of the bible to follow? Leviticus much?
Murdered and burned many animals as a sacrifice, as you are required to ?
How many NON religious books have you ever read?
14. If the point is to die and go to heaven, why not simply commit mass suicide and get it over with?
Christ was quite literally a kamikaze; is that what you preach should be emulated in daily life?
15. Why is it necessary to use superstition and irrationality to justify your practical principles?
Why treat humans like a donkey in need of the stick of hell and the carrot of heaven?
If you want positive secular behavior, why not justify that behavior in practical terms?
Religion preys upon the weak and the stupid.
Rationalization is not scholarship.
If your god is so wise, so powerful, WHY is it so petty as to demand unconditional obedience? What kind of god would need much less DEMAND that we grovel and call ourselves unworthy? Unworthy? Who made you in the first place!
If your god is so benevolent, and so omnipotent, why does it deliberately
cause suffering?
Why the grotesque elaborate torture scene of Jesus, when god could have simply changed the world in the blink of an eye, effortlessly?
Oh, your god cannot be understood? Then HOW can you know it even exists?
Where is your factual tangible irrefutable proof?
Suppose I "believe" that you deserve to die and I am allowed by god to kill you. How are you feeling about faith NOW?
Remember 9/11? They crashed those jets because of FAITH, because the believed religion, they believed superstition, that they would die as martyrs.
A debate over religion is exactly the same as debate between two inmates in an insane asylum over which voices in their heads are "real".
IRRATIONALITY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL. Wake up.
@@meganmarbury26 Yes both sides agree with all of that....but that is not the issue.....the truth is it is God who regenerates all the Elect sheep that He chooses to save; not everybody. People read John 3:16 "Whosoever believes" But they skip John 3:1-15 which tells us why they became a whosoever; they became a whosoever only because the Holy Spirit caused them to be born again.....
@@noneyabusiness2237 faith is to trust in God fully.
Man I'm trying, but am I the only one who needs this explained like I'm a ten year old?
No, you are absolutely not alone on this. 😊
Not all all. I've been looking up all sorts of religious relaited terms that I don't know. I'm still trying to figure out what an apologetic is.
@@billiejodix4560 Apologists are defenders of the Faith.
That's how I feel too. Is it suppose to be so confusing?
@@grammym8262 no, definitely not. I don't think so. I'm just as confused. I think I will stick to the basics and try not to nitpick. That's when it becomes this confusing. John 3:16. Blessings
Calvinists don't believe faith is a work. They believe that you cannot even seek God unless He draws you to Himself. Grace through Faith is a gift from Him.
Exactly... I was totally lost. The whole point Calvin was trying to make was that even our faith is a gift from God
Mike was not saying that Calvinists think that. Read his pinned comment, he explains his actual position well
Your faith is strengthened by God. You have the free will to choose to believe. If you believe the Holy spirit in dwells and strengthens faith. But you CHOOSE to believe. That's the whole point of us being here, we are here to choose Christ or deny. We fell, are we going to Choose to be brought back into the fold or follow the enemy. If everything is predestined this whole existence on earth in our current state is pointless.
@@zyn87
Our existence isn't pointless, we are a gift from the Father to the Son. If you want to entertain the notion that Man can respond in genuine faith to God's Gospel of his own free will. Okay now you have open numerous cans of philosophical and theological worms. First off, there are too many verses in the bible that either emphatically state that God does override Man's will at his leisure. Numerous Old Testiment verse's. ...
Second of all, Paul makes it clear that the Flesh or body of death, can be mortified, but never eliminated on this side of eternity. And the flesh will resist to the bitter end, any and all efforts to be at peace with God. How can anyone say, they chose the Gospel of their own free will, just completely baffles me. When I had my first encounter with God, I was utterly terrified of Him. That my will, or Old Man was being MASSIVELY over ridden, was never in doubt.
I suspect, We have to go back to the Garden of Eden. When we All fell in the Garden, what really happened there. ?
Did we just die physically?? Or did something far more cataclysmic occur there??
@@davidbridges3292 I said "if"
@1:09:15 Has this changed in the five years since, Mike???
You asked for our comments at the end if we stuck it out as Calvinists.
I really appreciate that this response is different than almost every other response to Calvinism. Thank you.
I'm interested in digging into the question: Does synergism (based on the general consensus you said) turn faith into a work? If so, is your position synergism? If so to that, how can I speak in a way to help point that out.
If instead the answer is no, then that leads to a lot of thinking on the topic.
I watched this yesterday and the thing it seemed to come down to is whether the act of believing is a work. God’s grace is a free gift given to me because of what Jesus did on the cross and through his resurrection. In accepting his gift (believing), I am counted as God’s child. So is accepting a work and do I receive glory for that decision? If the situation was different and I was a homeless person sitting on a corner and you offered me $20 unsolicited, am I considered working by accepting it and do I receive glory because of your generosity? I would say no and no.
Great example!
Great example!
I do like this example. The only thing I struggle with is thinking whether I am “smarter” or “wiser” by accepting the $20 compared to the others who would deny the unsolicited offer.
I wouldn’t think I am. It’s just a hard thought to wrestle with since people close to me are calvinists and I’ve never understood it fully. Still searching for more clarity.
Nice analogy
It doesn't come down to "is believing a work??"
Or "All i have to do is accept" so it's not a work.
It comes down to.......
WILL YOU ACCEPT WITHOUT NO HELP OF GOD??
The truth is, No MAN is a homeless person waiting for a great offer. In fact, we hate what is offered, which is separation from sins and submission to God. Man loves to be the ruler of His world and loves sin. That is why there is none righteous, not one.
That is why John
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Man loves darkness and won't come to the light. Everyone that does evil hates the light. So every man fits this category of hating Jesus because every man has done evil. Not some men, or most men, but All men.
He that does truth comes to the light is verse 21. You can only do truth when God gives it to you. It doesn't come from within.
Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
None seek after God, and none do Good. If you can't do good, then you can't do truth.
Regeneration has to come first by God before a man will even have a desire for Christ.
In other terms, Sin is evil. Paul says anything that isn't done in faith is sin. So by that alone, a non believer doesn't have faith. So all he can do is sin. So because of this, he is bound to John 3:19 of doing evil and hating the light. Only God can pull a man out of this condition. He doesn't pull Him out and ask "DO YOU WANT TO BE SAVED??"
HE PULLS HIM OUT AND THE MAN IS SAVED COMPLETELY WITH NOTHING OF HIMSELF. SIMPLY BECAUSE GOD CHOSE TO SAVE Him.
I’ve grown up as, what I would say, a 4-point Calvinist... the older I get, the harder, and less necessary it seems to me to land on one side or the other firmly. So thankful for the grace of God... and that we can all be United as one body, even if we disagree on certain doctrine.
I grew up thinking Calvanists were weirdos. What I've actually come to realize is that every calvanist I know loves God at least as much as I do and are mostly very knowledgeable of the Word and I have no doubt we will fellowship together in heaven. Therefore, it's a non-issue for me.
@@Pun_Solo Haha… well said. :)
I grew up Wesleyan, but the journey led me to what you would call 5 point Calvinism. That is where The word of God made sense
@@slamdancer777 amen:)
4 point Calvinism doesn't make sense. Either you're 5 point, or not a Calvinist.
I’m so thankful to have found you on you tube . You are such a blessing and I’ve learned a lot from you. Thanks again
As a Calvinist I've never heard of faith being a work
I have met many people who claim faith is a work. Now, I would prefer a direct quote so I found this on the internet:
John MacArthur, for example, uses John 6:29 in The Gospel According to Jesus to teach that faith is a work, and therefore, not something human beings can accomplish. He says that since faith is a work, it cannot be “merely a human work, but a gracious work of God in us” (John MacArthur, Gospel According to Jesus, 33).
Sry I'm seeing/replying TWO MONTHS LATER.
Your comment reads "As a Calvin's, Ive never heard of faith being a work.
I, personally, haven't either (unless I wasn't paying attn).
That said: I was raised as a Roman Catholic. My mother, grands, aunts, uncles cousins...ALL ROMAN CATHOLIC. I converted to a protestant non-denominational, Calvary Church.
I learned SO MUCH in a very short amt of time about our 3rce Holy God& the Bible. & simultaneously, I realized I knew very little of the Catholic doctrine. I continued to learn more & more- from the roots on up. I've tried to share my newfound knowledge with my favorite aunt bc I blv she should ATLEAST know the roots the doctrine she believes in & all it entails, from the roots , to any recent changes the Vatican has made. She pushed back on virtually everything. (E.G: "We do NOT prayyyy to Mary. We just thank her & ask her for her for help sometimes")
ANYWAAYY....
Please know I am NOT comparing Catholicism to Calvin-ism. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Your comment just made me wonder if you & I have never heard of this about Calvinism bc it's rarely, if ever taught, OR if we simply didn't pay attn OR if the church simply doesn't consider that what they teach is, indeed, that having faith is a work...
59:56 just as my aunt doesnt consider praising Mary & calling on her to intercede is, infact, praying to her. others do.
I genuinely do not know.
In other words: sometimes we don't know why we believe WHAT or even that "THIS" means "THAT", according to the fundamental teachings.
Any thoughts?
A lot of Calvinists say they've never heard this. I think this is a big part of the reason a lot of Calvinists also think ppl like Leighton Flowers strawman Calvinism arguments. Because calvinist teachers tend to gloss over the sketchy conclusions in their theology rather than just be frank about it. So, when an opponent comes out and exposes the reality, people are confused and defensive, "that's not what I believe".
Look up literally any debate on the topic and you'll hear it.
I was raised Roman Catholic as well. I have deep bitterness toward the Catholic Church now for what they've done to innocent people seeking after God. The Roman Catholic Church pulls people into idolatry, false rituals, works based salvation, the practices of the Nicolaitans (hierarchical structure in which 100% obedience to their authority is established and ONLY they can explain to you what the Word of God means), the atrocities the Catholic Church committed that have given so many people reasons to reject God. They've done such a good job of deluding their members too. Catholics tend to be some of the hardest people to persuade no matter how obvious the contradiction is that you're showing them
I could go on, but I think you understand.
As someone who grew up in a Calvinist environment and is to this day, I always understood it that faith was not a work but a gift from God due to regeneration. Personally when I experienced His grace and mercy upon me it hit hard and really was irresistible, which lead to my faith in Christ. Great video and I’m glad we can all have this discussion as brothers and sisters in Christ.
It's not Calvinism it's the bible truth..,..
As someone who grew up in a Calvinist environment, you were taught that faith was a gift from God from Calvin's writings, not from scripture. The Bible does not say that regeneration precedes faith. In every case, the Spirit is a gift to those who believe. The faith comes first in the Bible. Only in Calvinist doctrine does regeneration by the Spirit come before faith. It's nonsensical that people can become devout believers of Islam or Judaism or Hinduism or any other religion except the only that's actually true, and that one they can't believe.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast" from Ephesians is consistently what I see Calvinists attempting to say proves that faith is a gift, when the text does not say that. A plain reading of the text is that you have been saved by a gift of grace from God through your faith rather than through your works. Making faith the gift here conflicts with Calvinism's teaching that faith is a work, which makes this passage incomprehensible. Also, you can't hold simultaneously that faith is a work so that humanity is totally depraved, then that faith is a gift so that election is unconditional which is another point about regeneration preceding faith that causes Calvinism a problem.
You made the choice to accept his grace. You deny your own free will as a calvinist which is heresy.
@@canabiss8297 No I don’t lol. Look up compatibilism.
The fact that a dead person can exercise faith is much heretical than a person being regenerated first then actually being able to exercise faith. It's like being able to talk when you're six feet under. The Bible makes it abundantly clear that spiritually dead people cannot and will not choose Jesus unless they have been regenerated. And how can we be regenerated? Through the Gospel. That's why discipleship is important.
Just wanna be clear, i'm not a Calvanist, Arminianist, nor a Molinist. I believe in scripture alone. If you look it up with some theologian's expository preachings and interlinear interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9, you'll be surprised that faith is in fact a gift from God. If it's all by grace, it's by grace.
I met my first Calvinist while attending college. He was so passionate about it. I was already a Christian and couldn’t figure out why he was trying to convert me.😂
Relatable 😂 I love my Calvinist friends tho, even when I can't fully grasp nor believe all their doctrines, them constantly talk about it make me spend a lot of my time alone thinking about it too, that leads me to better understanding of God, so I'm thankful for them in another way.
@@eluziaaloinabarus1853 The irony is I joined a church that has reformed theology. I watched this video so I could better understand where they are coming from. In the end, it is a mystery that we won’t solve this side of heaven. I am content with that. I’ll let others work out all the details.🙃
He was trying to convert you to his religion of Calvinism. He didn't believe that you were saved by "the true gospel".
@@TheMoravians which is a reasonable thing if a person has a supernatural experience that is in line with Calvinism. I don't have much in me to argue for Calvinism intellectually because I didn't exactly experience it intellectually. Before I was saved I understood Christ intellectually. I thought I believed. When God revealed Himself to me and changed my will it was by no choice of my own as I experienced it. I chose drugs every time and I chose them for my future. I had a supernatural experience. If there are people out there whose natural state as a human goes towards God (like I formerly thought I did), then those people are having a different experience than I am. And when I read the scripture I see my experience explained. It is an experience that was completely invisible to me in scripture before it happened.
Sounds like he didn't think your faith was good enough.
Mike, I greatly appreciate your biblical approach. I need to ponder on one point where we might disagree. What comes first, grace or faith? This is at the heart of calvinism which teaches that we cannot have faith unless God first chooses us by grace. If faith is first then is is our act of choosing that cives us partial credit toward our salvation (synergism) . Grace first, God gets all the credit (monergism)
Gave it more thought and here are my thoughts for what they are worth. By God's grace, he accompanied the reading of scripture with the gift of his Spirit. By the work of the Spirit my eyes were opened to the truth, simiilar to a person walking in the dark toward a cliff and the light turns on so he turns from the cliff (faith). Without God's grace we would not see the cliff and be unaware of the danger. With his grace, we make the obvious choice of faith and turn to him. I believe this is follows the teaching of Calvin and also your explanation. Sometimes we get caught us in discussing Calvinism or other doctrines instead of scripture.
I'm not Calvinist but you saying that we chose to turn away would go against Calvinism. If we do anything then it is not a Calvinistic view. Hopefully you can see that there is no way to join the two. They are juxtaposed and it is an issue that needs to be discussed.
@MikeWinger do you consider yourself an Arminian, Provisionist, or a Traditionalist? (Or other)
Calvinist here, and super thankful for the meaningful pushback, Pastor Mike!
Faith is not a work of man. Romans 8:29-30 is evidence of this. If we are justified by faith alone, and God says “Those whom He called, He also justified,” it means that God provides the means of justification, and therefore faith is a gift of God.
The distinction between libertarian free will and compatibilism is very important here. We have free will within the parameters which God sets. The unbroken chain of salvation set forth in Romans 8 is what defines the parameters of our free will.
The ability to choose God is worked by God, and it is worked effectually. You believe it is a choice, but God has determined that already.
Our faith is a response to the salvation which has already been worked by God. It is not a work in the sense that it is transactional. It is a fruit.
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even DENYING THE LORD THAT BOUGHT THEM, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”
@@taylorrichardson7596 are you seriously calling me a false prophet right now?
@@borisvandruff7532 No, I thought my emphasis on certain words made my point. Suppose I should have elaborated but I though it was implied.
If god gives us free will within parameters that prevent us from choosing Him or even wanting to, He has effectively placed us in a state of affairs where we are born into this world with a nature we can do nothing about. We are basically helpless and are destined to hell for His glorification.
When I think about this, it makes me wonder about people who think this is a good thing, with good being someone that brings them happiness. I want to ask those who accept this horrendous doctrine whether they love it. If they do, I have to question their sense of morality or even sanity. If anyone in a position of power set some up for failure and tortured them for eternity, they’d be regarded as a monster, but when God does it, it’s ok…wonderful even. TBH I think Calvinists block it out because their own salvation is in the bag.
If you say it doesn’t make you happy, then you take issue with it, and to take issue with it means you find something wrong with it. But you say nothing because you don’t want to lose your salvation.
@jameschappell-ih4cw I literally had a Calvinist friend tell me in all sincerity that the God of the Bible is "a hate-filled psychopath" and that he firmly believed in such a God because of Calvinist teaching.
thank you for covering this, calvinism can be kind of discouraging. I mean, I sin so badly. at times its not a careless word or action, but giving into temptation knowing full well that I am making a mistake. Sometimes it makes me think, "do i truly believe?" How could someone who truly believes be so awful to God, who has done so much for me. How could I turn from Him, knowing the consequences, for a brief moment of earthly pleasure. Then the idea that maybe I am just not one of the elect enters my mind, i mean i have watched some calvinist preachers and their biblical evidence is pretty good. this is encouraging because it helps remind me that its not too late, that I can choose Him still, even when I screw up He takes me back. I grew up in a christian household, and during my time in college I have strayed from Him time and time again, intentionally and by accident. I have never been an atheist, but my faith has grown weaker. I am now trying to reconcile my relationship with Him, so please pray for me, that I will be filled with His Spirit and be able to fully rejoin the flock.
to clarify, when I say I intentionally sinned, i dont mean to say I WANTED to insult God, I was just lazy and stupid and enamored with things of this world so I kind of put it out of my mind but feel horrible after because I have insulted God, you know?
@@Frank-pp9iy For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. Matthew 7:8
Calvinism is wrong. You arent the only one who struggles. I am exactly like you. If you didnt believe in God then you wouldnt feel sorry for your actions because you wouldnt think you were doing anything wrong.
I felt the same way, but obedience to God is the key. We still sin but we should consciously try not to, we need to obey His commands inasmuch as we can, or we’re deceiving ourselves. It’s our choice…
There is some good RUclips content that shows how Scripture is distorted to support calvinism. Don't be discouraged. I can recommend a few channels if you'd like.
Romans 6; dead men aren't slaves anymore - v.7. Fooled, sometimes. Tempted, often.
Forced? Never! Just say no!
@mikewinger do you have a video of your biblical commentary of the Armenian beliefs?
I have such an issue with the word regeneration. When did it become popular? Back in my day we said born again. Do people no longer use that term?
Have held to Reformed teaching as the most sound interpretation of scripture among those that hold to orthodox Christianity. I greatly appreciated your spirit of grace in this discussion. I trusted Christ 36 years ago, have held to Calvinist beliefs for 33 of that and have always ‘said’ that in essentials unity, non-essentials charity.
It is only the past 7 years I actually have found myself living this out to at least a reasonable degree of faithfulness…..it is tougher than it sounds, at least for me. We found and now fellowship with a group of believers who simply love our Lord as we do and this is what changed for me.
Your arguments were well reasoned and presented with brotherly love. You might have cut short the details on the evangelistic history of those from the reformed traditions, and so many the Puritans are examples of the fruit of these teachings.
I did not hear anything that swayed me however, but you are a brother in the Lord and I believe if multitudes from both sides of this issue could adopt this same spirit, the Church’s influence in this world would be a beautiful thing to see.
Lastly I’d like to say; as a ‘Calvinist’, I would say that God made me alive, gave me the gift of faith and I believed. God does not believe for me, and the faith exercised was my faith, although a gift from our Sovereign God. Jesus, the Author and Perfector of my faith will sustain me and all those who are in Christ, ushering us all into His presence.
Until then, God Bless you, all for His Glory.
Do you think that if you could that you’d be able to make yourself not believe? Just by choice?
@@Oliveoil2345 No I do not.
So from a Calvinist perspective how does God give you the “gift” of faith, of which you can not decline? As a non-Calvinist I think I could have continued to deny Gods calling to my heart as I had many many times. Eventually I saw that He was good and I chose to put my trust in Him. How do you say that Gods grace is completely irresistible when we deny Him all the time. Even Peter denied Him 3 times before he believed.
@@-justin-4077 your comment about Peter’s denial and then believing is not accurate. His denials had nothing to do with him not believing.
Peter publicly admitted Christ was Messiah and recorded in Scripture in (Mark 8:29, Matt 16:16, Luke 9:20). Personally I believe his conversion happened when Jesus said follow me and he left everything and followed him. Either way Peter’s faith was counted as righteousness (as the same with all) long before Christs arrest, and Peter’s denials and his restoration after Christs resurrection. When Christ comes to Peter after the resurrection, it is comparable to us asking for forgiveness after our conversation. It isn’t a matter of Justification at that time rather Sanctification.
@@-justin-4077 So an unsaved unregenerate individual; Are they dead in their trespasses and sins?
We’re not saved by faith. We are saved by grace through faith.
Best comment on here. He must not have heard the words coming out of his mouth.
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;"
Romans 5:1-3 KJV
We are justified by faith. Our faith gives us access to grace
@@toplobster1040 faith is a gift from God.
What do you say about what what he says around minute 55:00?
"By Grace" means "out of God's pity", because God could easily continue to hold our sins against us. But God took the initiative to open up a means for us to enter into communion with him on His terms (one condition): faith in Christ. We can't boast as believers, because there is nothing inately virtuous or meritorious about believing in Christ. On the contrary, it is humiliating for the believer. Belief in Christ involves acknowledging your failure to keep God's law, since Christ is God's solution to our failure. "Grace" means He could have chosen to never send his Son and leave us damned forever, but He didn't. "Grace" means he favored mankind so much that he made a way for him to find God again. It doesn't mean he does the believing for us, or chooses ahead of time who gets the ability to believe, and who doesn't. That was added in by western philosophers who were trying to understand Biblical doctrine within the systems of philosophy and logic of their day.
I'm always interested in this type of discussion however, the labels on belief types lose me very quickly because when most points are presented I can only halfway agree or disagree.
I WISH SOMEBODY WOULD PLEASE ANSWER THIS ONE QUESTION for me: When you mention "works" are you referring to doing "good deeds for others" or are you referring to "living righteously by not singing"?
Ask God everything, Brother , and study the LORD's Word on works and meditate on it.
Scripture says faith without works is dead , and works without faith are dead.
God bless ❣️
I think it can mean both. Look at the motives behind you actions and are you doing it out of love? Ugh I know that’s frustrating answer but are you doing something and also displaying fruits of the Spirit? Sometimes only you can answer that.
Pray for God to for wisdom.
I just want to thank you for aiding in my understanding. My first church was a reformed Presbyterian church. I am now a confessional Lutheran. I struggled a lot with the doctrines of calvinism.
I am a calvanist and I was never taught that faith was a work. I was taught it was a gift from God produced in me by the holy spirit through hearing the gospel.
"So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper." (Luke 14:21-24)
Well, it's the work of God, of course. For the anti-grace folks who think they created their own faith in their own hearts when they were in an estate of unregeneracy, that makes it a work of their own doing ... which means they have somewhere to boast in their salvation, even though they deny that this is so. But it simply is.
@@stegokitty "But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared." (Mark 10:40)
"Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the Lord hath wrought this? With him is wisdom and strength, he hath counsel and understanding." (Job 12:9,13)
"For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God." (Hebrews 11:10)
"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." (Mark 10:27)
"Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;" (Hebrews 11:25)
"And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth." (Job 37:12)
"Let them praise the name of the Lord: for he commanded, and they were created. He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass." (Psalm 148:5-6)
"God has made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire." (II Samuel 23:5)
"And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." (Acts 16:14)
"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." (Matthew 16:27)
"The Lord shall judge the people: judge me, O Lord, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me." (Psalm 7:8)
Yeh well Mike Winger straight up lies about Catholicism. I don't know anything at all about Calvinism really but I would assume if you are not of the Church of Mike Winger then he is going to misrepresent you.
You were taught total depravity which is wholely satanic! And a distortion of scripture! Calvinists believe children are born sinners. You totally ignore genesis altogether - Calvin did not show that he was a Christian in the way Christ said all Christians would. Christ was clear how you would know his followers. Calvin doesn’t cut it. He is a tool of Satan
As a Calvinist I think you did an amazing job with your explanation and I appreciate you. I just listened to Ralph Arnold’s position on Calvinism and he basically said we’re all heretics, I’m glad you can still see us as brothers in Christ. This is definitely the best video I’ve seen on this topic. Keep up the great work definitely am happy to subscribe and you have made me actually rethink my position. For me Calvinism has always made sense because my sudden desire for God was a complete and drastic change in my life and have never been able to make sense as to why I so drastically changed from hating God to loving him in such a short time.
Keep up the good work brother!
I wanted to take a moment and thank you for having the courage to say, "you have made me actually rethink my position," on a topic that has been debated ad infinitum, and likely will continue to be until Jesus returns. How rare to read in any forum's comment section that someone listened and seriously considered what was presented. It gives me a reason to continue talking to a very close relative whom I love, but who has wrapped himself with the flag of Calvinism almost as if Calvinism is THE Gospel. I have been struggling with this theology for years, wanting so badly to understand why great Biblical pastors, aurhors and theologians all trumpet this theology when I just can't believe, teach or preach it. At the logical end of Calvinistic theology, God creates people who He KNOWS will have no chance to be saved; only the elect are chosen for salvation based upon nothing except the free saving Grace of God. So from Genesis through Revelation God tells humans to choose Him, choose life, choose good and choose Jesus, all the while KNOWING He created humans who can't. Man can't save himself, but all of God's Word teaches that God DESIRES and WANTS ALL PEOPLE to be saved, He says all men are without excuse because He's revealed Himself to them. So, according to logical Calvinism, people are in hell because God created them for damnation... and some Calvinists' responses - how dare the created question the Creator, mainly from Romans 9. I most certainly do NOT question the Creator, but I do question the Calvinists and their interpretation of their handful of "proof" texts, all the while ignoring the whole of the Bible that paints a much different picture of God, His Character and His means of salvation. You keep searching and I'll do the same. God's blessings to you and your family.
I just want to say that this comment blessed me and not because you confessed to rethinking your position, but simply because it felt like it was SOAKED in love and Christian brotherhood. I love this so much.
@@wfxxfox1963 If I may add, as discussed by William Lane Craig, the context of Romans 9 is like this (apologies for my crude English) -> "oh how could you Jews question God for saving the Gentiles? Although you are a chosen people, it doesn't and wouldn't stop God from extending his grace beyond your circle or group, that is, the gentiles"
So in that sense, the verse "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." is to be interpreted. It is not meant to mean that God overrides human freewill, not at all.
and verse 30,31 captures this thought - 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal.
The controversial verse used by Calvinists to support their theology is actually used by Paul to address objections by the Jews who seem to believe that salvation is exclusive to them....In that sense or context should that verse be interpreted.
Just my 2 cents.
Your experience is like mine. And so elements of Calvinism made sense to me, especially when I first read "No one can come to me unless the Father draws them first". I went from being an angry athiest to a repentant God fearing, God loving man without anyone convincing me. I cant really explain it. All I can take from my born again experience is God did it. And reformed theology helped me see it.
@@wfxxfox1963 Another sign that Christianity is confused. There is NO way that he can see you as 'a brother in faith' by essentially saying the Calvanist teachings are wrong! Wow!
Great rundown pastor Mike. I've never been a Calvinist but we actually attend a church with a Calvinist pastor! Now if he was a hyper he probably wouldn't welcome us to into the church family but my husband often teaches devotionals and has filled in on the one day a year our pastor takes a Sunday off 😅. We all agree that whatever position you take Jesus paid it all.
what is the difference between the persson who chooses to believe vs who didnt choose, was one more spiritually sensitive? was one given more grace?
I am a Calvinist. I appreciate your content and find much of it helpful. I think I would fundamentally disagree that Calvinist think faith is a work. All I have ever taught or received in reformed circles regarding faith is that it is a gift. Not a work, but a gift (Ephesians 2). I think the real issue you are trying to get at is regeneration (the new birth). I believe regeneration precedes faith. Faith is a gift that comes from being born again by the regeneration of the Spirit of God (Titus 3:5-7). I hope that brings some clarity.
I agree with this difference. The faith comes from God, not from us.
Isn't Mike's point here that Calvinists view the mere accepting, or believing, the gospel to be a work when a non-Calvinist says, "I believed and God saved me."? I don't believe that accepting a gift is a work either, but Calvinist's believe we are not capable of that and, if we were, then it would be a work.
@@brotherderek brother, that is not what calvinists believe...
@@coltonyarbro Many do.
As someone who served at a reformed/Calvinist church for many years, I can say that the discussion is presented in a very peaceful and kind way. But, there is a very simple error in his main thesis. Calvinist's understand from scripture that one's nature must be changed first before one can believe. We are free to choose according to our nature. But as fallen beings, our nature always pushes us away from God. That is why we must be born again. The means for this is God's word. The holy spirit works faith in his children.
When Dr. White asks you to be on his show, please accept. I'd love to hear you both work through these texts together.
James White also loves to make things personal and distract from the text if you don’t agree with him.
@@BK-yz7px they all do read James 2 14 to 20
A discussion with James white on Calvinism would be completely unfruitful because his attitude from the start will not be one of humility but more like “Calvinism is without a doubt the correct interpretation and I am here to teach you that and I am James white I cannot possibly be wrong on this”. The opposite and correct attitude to take during a theological discussion is more like leighton flowers who didn’t pridefully stay with the doctrine he taught for years to protect his reputation but when he realized it was biblically incorrect, repented to the praise and glory of God and to the repentance of many out of this false teaching.
@@sp4gsus really, have you really ever listened to him.? Or just heard what others say? I have listened to Leighton Flowers, but (to me) he is inconsistent with his description of what Calvinist believe. If he cannot describe what Reformers truly believe then he was never a true Calvinist.
His Romans Ch. 9 debate with James White was cringy to watch. He couldn't stay in Romans and never addressed the texts directly.
@@christianpathfinder6864 I've heard Dr. White, John Piper, and many others also teach that Faith without works is dead. So they didn't skip those texts.
But what about? Rom. 9:11-16 (Which is in context of exactly what we are talking about here. Paul is discussing how and who God saves.
A serious question here…this is not rhetorical, I really would love some insight on this. I’m only at timestamp 19 here so forgive me if he addresses this. However, there is scripture that says that He will blot your name out of the book of life, right? Which says to me that you absolutely can “lose” your salvation. Now, I’m order for your name to be in the book in the first place, you had to have faith. So, this would mean there is something that you are not doing or are doing that causes your name to be blotted out. Can anyone give me any insight into this specifically? Thank you brothers and sisters in advance! By the way, Im coming from a place on the fence about this issue.
How do you find a non-calvinist (reformed) church today? It seems as though most non denominational churches have reformed theology (calvinist) beliefs. What church do you go to?
FYI: Calvinism and "reformed" are not synonymes. Even though all reformed people are Calvinistic in their satereology, not all calvinists are reformed. It is a common "mistake" to think that it's synonyms. Been there myself untill fairly recently :) not judging, just sharing info.
As a new convert (I was a former alcoholic & atheist,) a man in the Church I was attending set out to make me a Calvinist. He gave me multiple books, magazines, had people he knew talk to me, etc.....I sat down with the Scriptures and the materials he gave me. I came away as a firm believer in God's Sovereignty in the affairs of men.....but, I also came away with a firm belief that we don't need a manmade matrix superimposed over the Scripture to say "this and only this is the truth." I am a firm Biblicist and not a Calvinist.
Good for you. If it doesn't fit with the entire Word of God, it's not what God intended. Who God calls and chooses is as much God's business as the 2nd coming of Christ.
No one should sit out to make you a Calvinist. The old men should be teaching you the Bible.
Look for Jim Brown at Grace and truth ministries. Learn what the Bible says based on the Greek and Hebrew. Forget all the Calvinism and the Arminianism stuff
Amen. I learned the Bible with out man teaching me and I am neither calvanist nor armenianist. just be Biblical. Too many men trying to explain God instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to teach. They end up putting God in a box that makes Him evil. Leighton Flowers is a good teacher on the subject
@@paulofell9939 Flowers doesn’t teach the Bible
@@aletheia8054 what?.... That's a incorrect statement
I've studied and listen to many of the biggest Calvinists on this platform, and this is the first time I've ever heard faith being described as a work.
DW: This is a complicated issue within Calvinism - because Calvinists have two conflicting urgencies.
The foundational core of Calvinism is EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM - as enunciated within Calvinism's doctrine of decrees.
John Calvin
-quote
The creatures...are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that *NOTHING HAPPENS* but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (Institutes 1, 16, 3)
Therefore - an underlying principle within Calvinism - is that EVERYTHING that happens has its source and origin in a divine decree - which makes EVERYTHING a "Work of god"
Never the less - the Calvinist will contradict that part of his doctrine - and insist that SOME things are the "Works" of man.
And faith which does not have its source and origin in a divine decree - is thus classified as a "Work of man"
So yes - you do have "Faith" as a "Work" in Calvinism. More preciously classified as a "Work of Man"
The problem with that - is that it contradicts their foundational doctrine of decrees.
That is why Calvinism is observed as a DOUBLE-MINDED belief system.
I encounter it all the time.
@Derek W Hello Derek. In contradiction to his doctrine - the Calvinist allows for the existence of what he calls *SYNERGISTIC* works.
*SYNERGISTIC* works - are works shared back and forth between Calvin's god and man - where Calvin's god does *SOME* work - and man does *SOME* work.
Now if the Calvinist were not self-contradicting - he would agree with John Calvin and classify *SYNERGISTIC* works as non-existent.
In order for a *SYNERGISTIC* event to exist - would logically entail what Calvin called "MERE" permission. The creature would have to be "MERELY" permitted to be the author/originator of a work.
"MERE" permission is non-existent in TRUE Calvinism. But Calvinists are DOUBLE-MINDED about it.
In TRUE Calvinism - the only works which exist are
*MONERGISTIC* works.
So if the Calvinist were TRUE to his doctrine - he would reject the existence of *SYNERGISTIC* works.
Various things are classified as works of man.
For example:
Any rejection of Calvinism is classified as a work of man. The Calvinist does not want to acknowledge - that rejection of Calvinism was infallibly decreed and was therefore the work of Calvin's god.
Any interpretation of scripture other than a Calvinist interpretation is classified as a "Human" interpretation and thus a work of man. Even though once again - that non-Calvinist interpretation has its existence as a work of Calvin's god via infallible decree.
Alter calls are often sighted by many Calvinists as *SYNERGISTIC* works.
And as such - anyone who by faith - answers an alter call - is performing a *SYNERGISTIC* work. And the faith involved in that alter call - is thus claimed to be a work of man.
The Calvinist - in denial of the foundational core of his belief system - will also call sins and evils the works of man *AS-IF* they were not the works of Calvin's god via an infallible decree.
The bottom line is - the Calvinist - in denial of his doctrine - feels an urgency to attribute certain works to man.
And that urgency forces him into a state of DOUBLE-MINDEDNESS - where he both affirms and denies his doctrine.
So yes - per your question in TRUE Calvinism - EVERYTHING - which logically includes faith - and logically includes sin -and logically includes evil - is the divine decree
I hope that makes sense to you.
@@dw6528 From Theipedia
Libertarian free will means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of *human nature* and free from any predetermination by God. All "free will theists" hold that libertarian freedom is essential for moral responsibility, for if our choice is determined or caused by anything, *including our own desires* they reason, it cannot properly be called a free choice. Libertarian freedom is, therefore, the *freedom to act contrary to one's nature* predisposition and greatest desires. Responsibility, in this view, always means that one could have done otherwise.
From the Bible….
Romans 7:15 For that which I do I know not: for what I WILL/Desire, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
An obvious contradiction of the Bible.
@@aletheia8054 Aletheia: From Theopedia - Libertarian free will means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature
DW: Which of course is totally illogical!
That definition is a great example of a "Straw-man" . All to easy to knock over. :-]
In Calvinism - per the doctrine of decrees - humans are not granted the function of choice at all.
If we look up any number of dictionaries - on the word "Choice" what we find is a consistent theme.
A NECESSARY CONDITION - is more than one option available - in order to constitute what people understand as a "Choice".
In Calvinism - per the doctrine of decrees - for every human event - and every human impulse - there is never granted more than ONE SINGLE PREDESTINED RENDERED-CERTAIN option - which the creature is granted NO CHOICE in the matter of - and no ability to refrain.
No Option(S) + No ability to refrain = NO CHOICE.
The Calvinist will claim that Libertarian choice does not exist.
But it is the very function every Calvinist insists he has - every time he assumes he is granted the ability to discern TRUE from FALSE.
Firstly- both options must be available for him to choose from - which is not the case in Calvinism.
And secondly - his brain would have to be able to be the DETERMINER of that choice - which is not the case in Calvinism.
That being the case - the Calvinist is left without Libertarian Choice - and thus no ability to discern TRUE from FALSE.
I’m thankful for you brother, I love your ig shorts, I think that’s how I discovered you! As far as this one goes, I’ve said amen to every Bible verse you’ve read but this one for me is simple: Of course, the Bible makes crystal clear faith is not a work. But faith doesn’t come from within us, the natural man can’t produce faith, but God in his mercy gives us saving faith. It is Him all along. It is our faith, but only because He gave it to us by the regeneration of the Spirit, once we heard the gospel!
Sometimes we struggle with certain doctrines, as they’re hard to digest, not understand, yet again, the Word of Our Living God is true in every sense! Thanks for sharing your POV, although I believe the “Calvinistic” stance was not rightly depicted, it is good to know both postures to take a well informed decision on which teaching conforms more to the Holy Scriptures. At the end of the day, we’re brothers in Christ, saved by Him alone, by grace alone, through faith alone given by the testimony of Scriptures alone, for God’s glory alone! And we should always seek to be renewing our minds with God’s Word. Big hug brother!
Please share what denominations you would support based on Biblical Thinking. Thank you!
Really found this difficult to understand. Just know that I have been saved by God's grace....if it depends on my works I would be in trouble. Thanks Mike for your teaching.
Then you are in trouble. Of course you do not get to just sit back and thank Jesus for saving you while you waste the gift that was given you and provide no works in His name. Especially if you rationalize your delinquency because you assume you are already saved. I am not saying its a mortal sin, but it is a sin.
I think good works are afruit of salvation not a means of salvation.
@@wendywardashley Yes 😁😁
@@Astrochronic Where did Wendy say or imply that she was living a delinquent life?
Who said she is wasting her gifts or her life, and doing no works? You are making assumptions!
@@judylloyd7901 I never made any assumptions about Wendy. You seem unhinged. Get a grip.
One of the problems is, in my opinion, people are ignoring that a GIFT can be accepted or rejected, it's still a gift, and I didn't do anything to deserve it but through my faith I can accept it or reject it. So faith is still not a work but a way to accept the gift, given as grace, or to reject it. Note that I can even reject the gift at a later time after accepting it, but still no work was done to deserve the gift.
That's untrue. The gift to accept god is an act of faith. God makes us willing to accept him.....the gift includes everything.... Philippians....read it.... chapters 1-2.....
@@dv4740 read the book of Jude it’s about apostasy. To fall from grace. How can you fall from something you didn’t have in the first place
@@isaacsantizo-johnson2918 iam waiting for your answer @dv4740
k...think of it this way: you're clinically DEAD, with a non-functioning heart; yet some donor, "gifts you", to receive a new heart, implanted by a doctor, and all of this, while you are asleep, and quite unable to consciously "receive the gift" of a new heart, yet the "gift" is no less real, despite your complete inability to "receive" with your mind (cf. Eph. 2:1; Ezek. 36:26).....
I have to ask this question and With all sincerity, what I find to be confusing, and I have listened to the very best when it comes to this topic, from both angles to highlight, dr. James White, who in my opinion is probably one of if not the very best debaters, and I tend to agree with him in virtually everything but am confused with this topic and I say this because honestly it seems as though both can be interpreted as correct, the Bible seems to validate both viewpoints, and the calvinist go hard to the right in their thought process, and the rest, maybe the Armenians or certain Catholicism, go hard in the opposite direction but both explanations can be viable via the text how do you differentiate that and feel firm on it one way or the other?
Hi Mike, I have to admit that sometimes I find it hard to get thru some of your videos because of the length of them. This one was a pleasure from start to finish. 😅
Why because you happen to agree with him and you like having your own preconceptions confirmed?
Good Video. He conducted himself in a very respectful way the entire time.
I found it interesting when Mike quoted Jesus (myself 2,000 years ago) talking about eat of my flesh and drink of my blood - John, 6, 48 - 71. Jesus didn't mean it when he said eat of my flesh and drink of my blood, he said it to get rid of those people that didn't really believe in him, it's obvious.
Thank you so much Mike! Praise God I found your channel.
My Father is a Calvinist Pastor and holds on this theology. Trying really my best to deal with it. hopefully i could open up this topic to him and have a healthy discussion.
I don’t get the issue, Mike is not arguing against calvinism, he is arguing against his idea of calvinism
Hello brother Mike! It seems like you have some inconsistencies here.
* “Dead in transgressions and sins” doesn’t mean “unable to play baseball” or eat, sleep..etc. anything like that. It means spiritual death which means: unable to respond to God in any saving way
* You keep on saying “through Holy spirit drawing you”. What is that drawing but a supernatural work of God?
* Faith is not a work of the law. But it’s a work performed by God. When He resurrects a spiritually dead human.
Hope this helped. Much love!
How do you avoid James 2 in your scriptures at the beginning?
Thank you for posting this video, Mike! I don't hold Calvinst beliefs either, but I have recently studied Scripture to make sure I know what Scripture says. Paul is very clear that faith is not a work. He even states "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified,, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.' For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile-the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved (Romans 10:9-13) NIV." Paul clearly seems to be saying that confession and belief are expressions of faith.
If you have true faith in Christ, then you will do his works. Faith TAKES work. True faith means living for Christ your whole life, exactly like apostle Paul did.
2 Timothy 4:7-8 [7] I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: [8] Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Paul didn't confess that Jesus was the savior and then return to sin, he spent the rest of his life doing the works his faith commanded him to do.
@@jack8162 Id a Christian girl is raped did God predestine that to happen to her?
You can not come to the understanding that you are a bankrupt soul until God shows you. The proof is you can ask anyone who has not understood the gospel if they think they are a good person, and almost all will say that they are. Even many confessing Christians believe they are inherently good, which is contrary to biblical truth and is good reason to doubt their confession. Calvin had it right along with the Westminister Confession and most every Puritan. Thinking that a sinner can come to the faith without God bringing them to that place is foreign to all logic and deductive reasoning. The history of man is the further they are from the gospel, the less likely they will come to faith.
Faith is a gift from God. He doesn’t give it to everyone.
@@josephplassmeyer286 Well said!! However, since Cain, mankind has insisted on interpreting God's Word according to their personal preference and private advantage, and they are still doing it.
I have had this video in my watch later for months, and I'm glad I finally got around to watching it. I am a Reformed Presbyterian and am Calvinistic, but I was raised a stout Independent Fundamental Baptist so I very much understand the difficulties people have with Calvinistic doctrines, such as predestination. I really appreciated this video and the honesty with which you tried to represent the beliefs of Calvinism. It is a rare sight. In fact, I've said in the past that I've almost never heard of or met anyone who understood the Calvinistic view accurately and still rejected it. Most of the time people will say something like "You don't believe in free will! You think we're all robots!" and write it off. I spend the vast majority of my time in these conversations explaining and re-explaining what my position actually is, and we spend almost no time actually debating the scriptures that support it. Thanks for being a genuine truth seeker, and even if you never come to believe in the doctrines of Grace, I have greatly valued your ministry and appreciate you as a brother in Christ.
Abbie, would agree Mike's handling on many topics is spot on and a breath of fresh air. Sadly i think his handling of Calvinism here a bit of a let down. I'm not even sure i'd call my self a "Calvinist", close but rather avoid terms and labels which i'd assert you'd agree with, granted many will attribute Calvinism a bit of an enigma to so many. Just saying would rather focus on and consider what the Bible does teach... Anyone thinking i'm misquoting scripture, will gladly fill in the blanks and show where i don't think this is the case.
Have been looking for good solid teaching that shows where Gods Election and God's Predestination are trumped by man's free will. Would assert Man has no free will, Adam may have, but after dinner and they ate, we are dead and slaves to sin (Rom 5....), no freedom here? As slaves we have no freedom (before Christ sets us free Gal 5:1, but this is after God has worked, best i've heard some will assert because God then... Hmm they just proved it wasn't man's free will/choice?). As a sinner am i the one sheep that "turned to his own way, there are none that seek God.... NO! NOT one..?" but it was only because we have a great Highest Priest of all, moonlights at night as a Good Sheppard who left the 99 and come save the one, and would assert against my choice/will, the sheep had no choice, right? I'm not seeing where the sheep had a choice... Okay granted it is a parable so not the best text to anchor theology one, but then how to deal with Mark 4:11->13...? If God is actively preventing those who are perishing from possibly seeing and turn and be saved... Oooops??? But it gets worse for the "Man has free will group?" If one is truly dead in their sins, how does a dead man make a choice? They are dead in their sins? What ability does a dead man have to make a choice or do anything for that matter, and why in Eph 2:8->10 why is "And this not of yourself" in there? Would assert it is front and center in the verses specifically dealing with salvation and "God's Work" to save a person, actually wouldn't change the meaning much if it wasn't present (the "and this not of yourself..."), so why is it in there, except to call out it isn't something we did...? And I wouldn't ascribe faith or believing is a work, if faith or thinking was a work... Where is the command in "The Law" don't think there is 1 out of the 613 saying not to do either on the Sabbath? But wait there is even more... Sin has blinded and deceives us, so without God making the choice for us we never would have made it? Or if we did, how was it true (John 4:24) Would assert this why one must be Born Again and it is only God who gives life and does it all for us...? Thus the reason one *MUST be Born Again*, and a work done only by and solely by God? And once we get His life in us again by being Born Again, then we can see as we are no longer dead.
There are a few more points and problems if one is coming at the issue on a "Biblical" basis that of Man's Free will or God's Election and Predestination, that i've heard the "man has free will camp" answer... Still haven't hears a good explanation of Romans, "Who is the clay to say to the potter why did you make me this way..." Some for honor and some for dishonor.
Sounds like the people you have talked to mistake the logical conclusions of Calvinism with what you believe.
@@peterfox7663 Ah i'm curious now many can articulate Calvinism well. I've heard things attributed to Calvinism i'm not sure how they can assert the points they do.. Like one should never go evangelize because it is all in God's hands anyway why go spread the Gospel... Interesting study the life of Calvin he was willing to risk his life to go evangelize... Besides while i'd agree it is all God's work, what about Eph 2:10? The verse many like to not consider. Then again you comment is so typical you assert a point without saying anything other than "with what you believe"
@@dand4485 Evangelism is done only as obedience to the command to evangelize - it is pointless from the logical conclusion of Calvinism, but that is not the belief of the overwhelming majority of Calvinists. Evangelism certainly is important to Calvinists. But I'm not sure why.
Other logical conclusions of Calvinism, but that most Calvinists somehow do not hold as beliefs:
*God is the originator and author of all sinful and evil deeds
*Men are merely puppets since they are simply doing that which God has determined them to do
*God is unjust for holding man responsible for that which He has done
*The Bible on its own is useless to convey the Gospel message
*God is at best disingenuous, but really just a liar who implores men to choose to believe in Him, when He determines who will actually believe and who will reject Him
*God is like a fireman who commits arson so he can receive the glory when he puts out the fire
*Everything is determined by God, nothing we can do will change it, therefore there is no point to anything
@@peterfox7663 Only problem, there is a fair amount of scripture, that one could easily refute many of the points asserted, not sure i would call myself a Calvinist, but it sure lines up with what i read in the Bible. But not really willing to debate if you really do ascribe that God makes people sin...
Do you have any commentary recommendations that are similar to God's Word for you series or Christ Centered Exposition Commentary series that's not from a reformed influence?
We are saved by faith not by works and faith is a GIFT of God. Mike isThe one muddying the waters. God saves His elect people.
Mike thank you so much for this! I have been reading through other perspectives to try to ensure what I believe lines up with Scripture, and your video really helped me with this. Much appreciation for your respect to those you disagree with, your call for brotherhood, and your Biblical basis on everything. Much love brother, keep it up!
"It is no novelty, then, that I am preaching; no new doctrine. I love to proclaim these strong old doctrines, that are called by nickname Calvinism, but which are surely and verily the revealed truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus." -Charles Spurgeon
@@rprestarri quoting someone doesn't make them right
Mike, I think you may be getting hung up here on some technicalities.
Calvinists do not believe that faith is a work of men, but rather a work done solely by God. The calvinist claim that me having a choice recieve or reject God's free gift of grace is NOT philosophically inconsistent.
I think there may be some misunderstandings you are falling prey to here.
Calvinists believe faith is solely the work of God. They believe that God in his own sovereignty and his mercy has elected to open human minds to see the mystery of God which is Christ and the Gospel (Paul makes reference to this quite a bit). But the opening of the mind is not something that humans play any part in. It is soley the work of God.
Unless God opens the eyes of someone to see this mystery they are incapabale of faith. When God opens their eyes, faith will occur. The faith is not something that i choose, but rather the natural outcome of God working of his own will to open my eyes. I didn't do anything to open my eyes.
Therefore, I dont actually have a choice to reject God, because my eyes have been opened to see him in all his glory. I will believe. Butagain, I had no hand in this. It is all the work of God.
If God opens my eyes and I choose to believe or reject him, then I am the one who is in control of my faith, and my faith would be a result of my work. And what this is essentially suggesting is that God is not sovereign over who chooses them, because i have the ability to resist his glory and power.
Ultimately, your arguments rests not on whether or not faith is a work, but rather, whether or not human beings have free will.
I would prefer for you to engage in this question, as I think it would allow for a more open and appropriate discussion.
I think it would also do your presentation if you gave a thorough overview of the calvinist perspective up front, before pulling random quotes from people and starting to refute them. Yes, use scripture to refute something if you think its unbiblical. BUT, give it the appropriate air time and basis for which you then attack it. You're logic hear is rathe4 confusing and I'd say misrepresents calvinist theology.
I feel like people focus too much on a view they wish to take whether it be Calvinists, armininian or whatever. I really don't see the point of that especially considering the fact that most Christians are not following the commands of Christ and not being separate from the world and it's traditions that attempt to nullify the word of God.
God is sovereign over all experiences and indeed free will is an illusion of our consciousness. However, from the first person experience of consciousness, faith is indeed a choice and is experienced through the lense of a free will paradigm. We can choose to have faith in God and His Word or not. We can choose to believe it or not. I think the point Mike is making is that from this context, this choice is not a work that earns salvation but more of a choice of whether one wants to be saved and submit to the will of God or continue living apart from God and face the consequences of that decision. It's not whether someone earns it or not, but rather if they want it or not and some people prefer the path of pain instead of salvation as the way God created them. God gave us this experience of a choice even though under the surface it is not a choice. :)
Sooo... I looked in the comments for someone that looked like they knew what they were talking about. 😉 I've wanted to ask this for quite some time too: what does work/works mean. For example "you can't inherit the kingdom of God *by works* alone." Faith isn't works (understanding faith is internal... saying that lightly) mostly asking to define "works" & work.
One of the central ramifications to the Calvinistic understanding of Total Depravity as total inability is the idea that people are not even able to believe in Jesus for eternal life. This idea is because faith is viewed as a meritorious act of the will. That faith is a work, and therefore, since people cannot do any good works, people cannot have faith. In modern times It may not be an outright statement that faith is a work, but it is the understanding in which the entire doctrine is based upon.
In other words, due to the emphasis on the inability of mankind to do anything good at all, and because of the impression that faith is something we do, Calvinists conclude that humans cannot believe in Jesus for eternal life. Calvinists argue that if people were able to believe in Jesus for eternal life, then this is something that they are doing, and therefore, their faith is meritorious before God.
So, yes you can say faith is a gift but at the central doctrine to calvanism; it is a work.
Great comment, totally agree with all your statements.
Hey Pastor Winger, when are you gonna visit Australia? Love and subscribed to your channel and how biblical you are to the questions asked and how much grace and love for contentions topics such as Calvinism. Note - I agree with the majority of your answers. Praying for you and your ministry. cheers mate.
Brother Mike, first, thanks for this video, for the way you express yourself, your enthusiastic manner and your appreciation often mentioned for men who hold different view! I would love to ask you a question and will certainly benefit from your response - here it goes: How does the fact that you hold that view and effectively argue for it affect your personal walk with the Lord and your ministry at the time? Thanks a lot, again. Val, Omsk, Russia
I believe the stronger pillar of the Calvinistic view point is “where does faith come from” that of which scripture is clear that it is a graced to us by God.
Where does the Bible teach that?
@@thomasfryxelius5526 We are given faith. “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8). God gifts believers the faith to believe in Him.
Let us also not forget John 6 while we pray for one aother: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” (John 6:44).
@@karacole2304 Thank you for the answer.
Eph 2:8 says the gift of God is that we have been saved by grace through faith. It doesn´t say that faith is a gift from God. This is also backed by the greek grammar that shows that "this" cannot refer to faith.
John 6:44 also doesn´t say that faith is given to us, just that the Father draws us.
I have read these passages carefully and I really don´t think they teach that faith is a gift.
Thomas Fryxelius thank you!
@@thomasfryxelius5526 Calvinists believe that faith is a gift which regenerates our heart in order for us to believe. God grants our belief or repentance because he provided the faith/turned our hearts of stone to hearts of flesh in Old Testament language. The faith is counted for righteousness because it is the source of our salvation granted by God.
Because we were born in sin, we desire sin, enslaved to sin, no one seeks God, no one can do godly righteousness, even our "righteousness" is filthy rags because the intent of our hearts to do righteousness as sinners is not to glorify God but to feel good, look good in the community, works for salvation....all worthless.
Faith is a gift which allows us to believe/repent. Belief/repentance is granted to us by God's faith:
Acts 16:14, Romans 12:3, Hebrews 12:2, Acts 5:31,Luke 17:5, Acts 11:18, Phillipians 1:29, etc... many more.
Can people believe or come to faith on their own in their dead, enslaved to sin hearts? No
1 Corinthians 2:14, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, 1Corinthians 1:18, 21-24, Deuteronomy 29:2-4, John 12:39-40/Isaiah 6:10, John 8:43-44, 47, 1 John 5:20, Ephesians 4:18, and many more.
Can men do good or seek God when they want to? No
Romans 8:7, Jeremiah 13:23, Matthew 7:18, Matthew 12:34-35, and many more...
Can sinful man seek God to make a choice to believe? No.
Psalm 10:4, John 3:20, Isaiah 65:1, Isaiah 64:7, Romans 3:10-12, Romans 10:20 and many more.
My understand is that we have been saved by the grace of God through faith, and our works is the product of our faith to glorify God. To do the work of God, we need the Holy Spirit to guide us, therefore, all works are credited to God and not ourselves. This is why we pray because we trust God to work in us.
Perfectly said.
And I believe as Luther did about the Bible. That the 23 apostolic gospels are more authoritative than the 4 non-apostolic. Otherwise we have genuinely unresolvable direct contradiction.
_________
Like James 2:24 (You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.) *vs* Eph 2:8-9 (For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works..)
Gal 3:28 (no greek nor jew in Christ) and others *vs* Rev 11:1-2 (..was told “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles”)
Calvinist do not believe that faith is a works. What he is say I g is not true
I didnt quite follow where the calvinist test was supposed to have a loophole. If God gave everyone the same grace and the faith that responds to that or grows in response to that isnt our work, then how do we differ from the others? To me, its like a flower field getting watered and despite all flowers having the same preconditions, only slme flowers grow, while others dont. So what is the 'secret ingredient' that the test and myself overlook?
Thank you Mike for unpacking this issue for us! I was raised reformed Baptist and joined a Presbyterian church ten years ago so I have believed most of Calvin’s teachings from the pulpit for a decade. I’m going to enjoy discussing this with my family, this video really gave me insight into what some of my friends have believed and have been trying to put into words. It was so refreshing to hear someone explaining in gracious terms and to hear the caveat: “not all Calvinists.”
I especially appreciate the way you delve into Greek so eagerly! Thank you for addressing our pastors as well about pursuing truth no matter the cost. As a mentor for high schoolers at my Presbyterian church, I want to encourage you with a verse that has helped me: Isaiah 55:11
Keep making videos!
I believed, I received, I cooperated, I obeyed... Do I deserve any merit? No, it's all His mercy.
Touche!
Licidtraveler Hopefully you obeyed the gospel through baptism?? And baptism now saves you 1st Peter 3:21 and Jesus was baptized why was he baptized? Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness Matthew 3:15 so if you want to fulfill all righteousness copy Jesus... simple easy peasy and you are obeying the gospel doing this 2nd Thessalonians 1 verses 7 & 8 check that out
Well that's a lot if I. What did God do?
@@tlbirdsong1 Baptism doesn’t save you…ROM 10:9-10. Show me where water is in this verse.
@@Phill0old No, it's not a lot... that's the point. It's God's mercy.
I attend a Bible church that isn’t considered Calvinist but we have a very Calvinist view of scripture for the most part. Never have we EVER talked about faith being a work. In fact it’s preached that faith is a gift of God! We are taught that there is nothing we do to earn favor, but God chooses before we are born His elect. That’s kind of the paraphrased version.
I'm at about 15 mins in the video to be fair and I'm wondering the same thing. My church is very similar to what you describe yours as, plus my father has been a Presbyteran minister for almost 40 years, and not once have I heard faith taught or talked about as a work. Perhaps the one element missing here is the idea of regeneration, that it must caused by God before faith can take place. Without that, a Calvinist would see the argument of faith (from an Arminian perspective) as a personal effort towards salvation ("I believe because I choose to do so", without involving God's regeneration first), which again to a Calvinist makes no sense because it is a gift.
John 3:16 jesus died for the world that whoever believes in him"whoever" not just the elect" world" meaning everyone who belives in him will have eternal life
@@kalegallarde6369 the elected are those who believe in Him. God knew who will believe in Him. When He created the world, He already has in His mind who will be saved.
@@shikyokira3065 What you describe here is not predestination. God, being all-knowing chose who He knew would believe in Him says that those chosen had the choice which I agree with. Predestination says that those chosen had no choice. It's a lottery. You either got lucky and picked by God to be saved or He didn't love you enough to save you. I can not get behind this idea. If God can save everyone and desires to save everyone, then why doesn't He? Why only save a few?
If I love people and desire all to know God and be saved, then how can God, who is the epitome of love not want to do that? How can God tell us to love our enemies if he doesn't love them enough to save them? There has to be a choice on our part to place our faith in Christ because that just does not sound like the nature of an all-loving God.
@@user-kn8kx6fj4r Romans 3:10-18. I’m just curious how if this is true, would we go about seeking good? Or John 6 : 44 or the entire passage after verse 44. Or Romans 8:28-30 , (29) those that he foreknew he also predestined or Romans 9. God is sovereign he’s does as he wills and pleases. Without his sovereignty we wouldn’t even be here now.
Thanks for posting this. Are faith and belief synonymous? Or does belief come first so fait can be established. Was Abraham accounted righteousness by faith or belief? I think the book of John does not mention faith but only belief (believe). Not a fan of "another" translation. What does it say at the end of Ecclesiastes? Ecc 12:9-14.
Is the ESV translation a Calvinist Bible?
I have Calvinist friends and family members who I love dearly. Though I don’t consider myself Calvinist or Arminian. In the past hearing them twist and interpret some scriptures that seemingly contradict Calvinism in order to make them fit their belief system has caused me to feel confused, sad, afraid, and skeptical of the Lord. There were times where I was afraid that I was a heretic who “thought” that I knew Jesus. After further study of scripture and many conversations with my husband who LOVES scripture and teaches it well, I no longer feel confused. This video has further helped bring clarity to my heart and mind. I feel encouraged and built up. Thank you so much for sharing!! I feel like I can firmly stand where I stand and like I can continue to do so full of love.
I know I'm confused
Same here, I just call myself a Emmanuelite Christian
I'm in tears right now... i spoke to a calvanist pastor... i feel like the relationship I have with the Lord is a lie... I feel so down trodden... He basically tore into every part of my life. Everything I am is centered around christ I live for him... and he basically told me if I can't accept this I'm not part of the elect...
@@camillehendricks9819 I have been there- DO NOT BELIEVE what he has told you. Keep your focus on Jesus. Jesus is everything. Read the red letters, rest at His feet. Do not let your JOY be stolen by any human. I also almost gave up on the Lord when I found out what kind of God the Calvinist believes in. Please don't get sucked into their teachings. Know that Jesus is your all in all, you know Him, you love Him, you follow Him. Keep finding your joy in Him!
@@m.r.6222 I'm crying reading this...😭😭😭 it almost feels like manipulation 😭I'm not a scholar they talk circles around you and make you feel so small.
Hi Mike, I've never heard of a calvinist that thinks of faith as a work. Am I just uninformed? I find this video very confusing. Just offering my honest opinion. Regardless, I do like your videos. Thanks for your faithfulness and keep up the good work.
@@jayman1338 Election is based solely on God's grace determined before anything was created, faith is the free gift of that grace and the means that energize the sheep of Christ to hear the call of the Good shepherd and respond by coming to and following Him.
@@jayman1338 Biblical, Reformed soteriology does not present faith being either generated by unregenerate humans nor is a work of humans.
@@jayman1338 I have watched the video. No matter how he and all arminian/semi-pelagians rationalize it, and ignore clear scripture that man contributes nothing to his/her redemption, it still remains that you have to exercise your will to do what is necessary to meet all the right conditions and make all the right decisions, which are things you do(work) to complete and secure salvation.
You have a jesus that did not truly, actually, definitely with absolute surety redeem anyone in particular but just made it possible for someone to be saved, provided that they do their part well enough to meet the conditions in order to be just.
Titus 3
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by any acts of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior
Pay attention:
"5 not by any acts of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit"
So I ask you, is your exercising your so called "free will" to generate your own faith out of a wicked, stony heart and making a superior decision than another, using your will to act to meet the conditions so you can be saved, "acts of righteousness?
Yes or no?
@@jayman1338 "Reformed theology does teach that IF election was based on a man’s own faith apart from regeneration then"
Reformed soteriology does not teach that. So, contrary to your claim you do not actually know what reformed theology teaches and confirms.
@@jayman1338 You say:
"I believe salvation is that gift that comes because of faith"
You are contradicting yourself.
You generating your own faith from a wicked heart is, as you say, your faith is the cause of salvation, and yes, is a condition for salvation, no matter how you want to slice and dice it.
Also, if your faith is the cause as you say, then it is what you do which as Paul says in Romans 4, then it is not a free gift of grace but a reward for what you do.
have you read the commentary by Ursinus on the Catechism??
I whole heartedly adore your non-sensational approach to teaching throughout the years, where you simply read the bible, try to understand it as best you can, and build your worldview upon that regardless if you personally agree with the notion or not. It's the way christians ought to be: to submit to the will of God.
I watched this video 3 years ago and wrote a comment here about how this helped ease my concerns about not being in the Calvinist system. What ended up happening was that this video caused me to read my Bible more thoroughly and by providence it lead me into the doctrines of Grace (Calvinist). I am grateful that pastor Mike did this series and tries his best to base all that he believes on Scripture. We should all be good bereans and study our Bible thoroughly!
Haha I hear you. My struggle is that I just cannot agree on predestination. That seems to me what the real argument is about, since the reasoning on faith whether its a work or not leads to a different conclusion in my mind. If God supplies all faith, then God elects 100% of who gets into heaven, meaning Jesus did not need to take the sin of everyone in the world ever and its punishment. The concept of not being able to choose is something thats impossible to comprehend, and nothing solves it. If you were to read the bible to a child, they would not gather that they didnt have a choice. They would think God is amazing for saving them and that they need to tell their friends to choose God so that they can also be thankful for Him saving us. Free will as I understand it contradicts predestination. That would mean that in the end, Jesus’ choice to sacrifice himself was not a choice, and Judas’ choice to have betrayed Jesus did not deserve punishment since it is not because of something he did that led him to kill himself, but God who forced his hand. This to me strikes God as an unjust God and the source of evil, which I know he is not. Im not saying this is what Calvanists believe, Im just saying my problem with predestination.
Ive been apart of a denomination that falls under the calvanist umbrella for many many years and i have never heard that teaching on faith as a work, as a calvanist teaching...quite the opposite actually. Don't know where you got that from? Is that some version of American calvanism if there is such a thing lol?
Well said brother!
So this video led you to Calvinism?
@@jakeb3055 yes, well sort of. I wanted to make sure all the points he made was true and in researching those points I found more compelling evidence for Calvinism, just purely based on a scriptural basis
Mike something that I think would have helped in the discussion is that Paul uses the term "works of the law", not just "works". Thus Calvinists expand Paul's meaning of works to include faith, when actually he specifically excluded that possibilty in his discussion. But properly defining "works of the law", which he then shortens to simply works, would clarify the issue.
Works of the law do not include the commandments that Jesus gave either. That is why the ancient Church has always believed we are saved by grace through faith and works.
How would you respond to John 6: 28-29?
Mike I love that God blessed you with your gift for interpreting scripture, being honest, humble, intelligent, bold diligent, hardworking, Bible focused, and slow to speak. Thank you for what you do. God bless you🙏🏾
Im reformed, while I disagree with your findings and for the most part, I believe you portrayed calvinism in a fair way. With the only exception of your take that Faith is a work. I think all calvinist would say faith is not a work. Faith, along with repentance, is a gift from God.
I hear that but then Calvinist say your works are evidenced by your faith. A saving faith. So if you're going to do that then I think you should set a precedent of what "works" constitute a saving faith. It leaves you with no assurance of salvation until you die and find out.
He wasn’t saying Calvinists think faith is a work that man does but that non-calvinists think it is a work they perform to “earn” salvation. But, as he said, faith is not a work and is apart from that. Man CAN make a decision to follow Jesus in faith and no it is not a work that gives the man who made that decision any glory. God’s desire is that all men be saved (1 Tim 2:3-4) therefore his atonement can not be limited to the “elect”
@@jenniferwillis8977 As one who agrees with "Calvinism" on the nature of faith and election, I have felt what you're describing but have found that the book of 1 John addresses this very problem. Assurance is Spirit-given confidence that comes and goes and is dependent upon how obedient we are (our salvation is not in question... only our assurance). John urges us to walk with the Lord SO THAT we can KNOW that we have eternal life (He doesn't tell us to remember that we prayed a prayer or made a commitment). When the Spirit indwelling us is not grieved, we will have joy, assurance, and our prayers will be heard and answered (adding to our assurance), plus we have fellowship with Him. When he IS grieved, we will lack all of those things, yet our salvation is secure because Christ is greater than our feelings. But if there is no evidence of the work of the Spirit in someone's life at all (not even grief for sin) - that person ought to have no assurance of salvation and we do him a disservice when we pretend that he is not in danger of eternal damnation. Hope that helps.
@@priestap I think that was good. I hated the concept of Calvianism early in life, then left it as a “non critical issue” but lately I can’t escape digging into God’s sovereignty. I LOVE Mike’s teaching .. and John Piper (who has many years more under his belt), so this is tricky territory.
My one point from the start of this is that I don’t think Calvanists are saying that Faith is a work, so that muddied the water.
One key example of the fact that God can jump in and show himself in a DRASTIC way (therefore he really can save many more people than he chooses) is Paul’s Damascus road encounter where he literally hits him so hard with his real presence that he knocks him off his horse.
Hard to grapple with. I hate the concept of certain people being damned, but I’m trying to accept it
@Michael Shandor Some do say that about Arminians, but I think most of us (in agreement with Calvinists like JC Ryle) believe that Arminians are inconsistent and that they can have saving faith while believing things that are inconsistent with that faith. One of my dearest friends is an Arminian and he is a great encouragement to my walk with God. I don't have time right now to address the rest of your response...
40:27 this response really helped clarify for me why the Reformed view of baptism (before salvation) bothers me so much and seems more like a big deal and not a periphery issue. If their assumption is that God draws me and my salvation has nothing to do with my choice, then baptism into the “Covenant Family” at infancy makes sense because they are acting on the belief/hoping that God will draw and give faith to that member of the family. Whereas baptism that follows conversion waits for the choice to be made and expressed by the believer and is an act of celebration and obedience rather than an outward symbol of “membership in the club” of the Covenant Family.
At least that’s how it seems to me. I’m learning more about Reformed Theology since I now attend a Reformed church and some red flags have been waving recently.
What about James 2:26 where it says, “ faith without works is dead.” If our faith is real wouldn’t be evident through our works? Curious on your thoughts on this @MikeWinger
Excellent question.
In short, James is saying "if you don't do good works, then your faith never existed to begin with." If you claim to have faith in Jesus, but then you don't follow His teachings, you're just lying to yourself. The passage is NOT saying that "if you have true faith but not good works, then your faith no longer saves you."
It's also importance to distinguish between "belief that" and "faith in." Even the demons "believe that" Jesus is the son of God, after all.
Excellent response - good works will inevitably flow from being in Christ. By grace we are guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit.
“The Gospel is so simple that it takes man to confuse it.” I don’t know who said this, but it is true. The way of salvation is narrow it boils down to a choice.
Plus baptism and receiving the Eucharist. John 3:5 and John 6
What is a eucharist?
@@polaramondi5305 Hi!! From my understanding, The Eucharist is a Catholic sacrament that involves the consumption of wine as Jesus’ blood and bread as Jesus’ body. In other words, it’s communion. It is based on John 6. Hope that helps a bit. God bless!
"The way of salvation is narrow it boils down to a choice."
And God presumably already knows what choice you will make.
"The Man on the middle cross said I could come"
Maybe Im deaf and dumb, but I have never heard any of my Calvinist friends say that faith is a 'works'.
Really? Every Calvinist I've ever known has said faith is a work. The entire argument sort of hinges on that.
@@jrodtriathlete A work from God or from man?
Ill habe to sit down and grill my closest Calvinist friend.
+1969cmp Seems to me they typically say faith is a work of man. As in you can’t “get saved” by having faith on your own. Only God gives the elect faith. In other words, faith to a Calvinist is not an act you can will. If it were then it would be salvation by a work rather than by grace. At least that’s the impression I’ve always gotten.
From what I've figured out from Calvinists such as R.C. Sproul, works are EVIDENCE of salvation, NOT the CAUSE of it. (caps are for emphasis only) Kinda like what the book a James has written. (v 2:14-26) Justification comes from faith in Christ. Sanctification is the process in which the Spirit of God uses the Word of God to make us more Christ-like.
Well Arminians would say the same thing. The issue we’re talking about is how Calvinists think of faith. Faith for a Calvinist is given by God, not something one chooses to have. Faith for a non-Calvinist is an act of will. I guess my original contention was with how Calvinists refer to the faith of non-Calvinists, which is as a work since they see it as something willed.
I ran across this video from 5 years ago and I’m so glad I did. I have assumed that I may be leaning toward Calvinism but if faith is works to them, maybe not.
I am a fairly new Calvinist/Presbyterian, but I have never once heard anyone in my church claim that faith is a work. I'm not sure where this idea comes from because I have yet to encounter this view.
Hi Mike, what are you then, if you are not a calvinis? The question sounds stupid, but I was brought up in a Calvinist church, and all the things that you mentioned about "through faith, not works", are exactly what we believe as well. Are there any other differences that I should be aware of? (I am from Africa and English is not my first language). I would really like to test everything that I learned regarding this. Regards
I love Jon MacArthur, but I just got done watching a video of him saying “so what, you’re telling me God saved you because you were morally superior to someone else, since you believed and they didn’t?”
.
No... Nothing about believing and falling at the feet of Christ and begging for forgiveness makes you morally superior to anyone else. It’s not a “work” that “merits” your salvation. God has no obligation to save you just because you believe. He sovereignly chooses to because he delights in doing so. He gives people a choice. Many are called, but few are chosen (aka He calls everyone, desires all to be saved, but only chooses to elect those who respond to his gospel, not because they’ve earned it with merit, but because He sovereignly chooses to elect those who believe)
I enjoy John MacArthur but I also disagree with him on many things like the gifts still operating. The Bible also tells us that none seek after God. Therefore, we cannot draw ourselves until God, he draws unto us first.
Thankyou. Finally someone who gets that G-D is perfect therefore His salvation is perfect
Which is it the ones who believe because of the Good News or the ones God choose first then they believe? If God chooses first as his elect then we don't need to believe he has already chosen us then.
@@markford2227 its the one on hearing the good news realises his real choice.
The choice is not to get saved the choice is whether or not to ask to be saved.
@@theunknownpreacher9833 Are you a Calvinist?
I appreciate your perspective, I share your interpretation of faith not being a work but didn’t know the scriptural reference to back up my understanding and you gave me that. Thank you!!
I'm about to dive into this video, and I really appreciate it although I haven't watched it yet. I appreciate it because you're a man who's teachings and interpretations of scripture I respect and seem sound to me, though I have been slowly shifting to more of the calvinist belief lately as I listen to other men of God that I trust (John Piper, John MacArthur, and my own Pastor) that belief the doctrines of Calvinism. Been praying for wisdom on the topic a lot, and I'm glad you made this video so I have formulated arguments on both sides made by men of strong Biblical thinking.
You should also listen to Leighton Flowers to get a non Calvinist perspective! Many great theologians and preachers weren't Calvinist like CS Lewis, AW Tozer, Billy Graham...
John Piper takes Calvinism to it's fullest extent saying that God determines for rape and molestation of children to occur... Even John Macarthur would not say that.
Can we set up a debate on Romans 8&9 with Dr. James White 🙏PLEASE???🙏
“As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.”
James 2:26 NIV
As a calvinist, I really appreciate your mindset established in 1:30-2:18. It so frustrating to see arminians on the internet accuse calvinists of denying Christ/the Gospel and accepting "Five Satanic Doctrines" as their creed. We need more arminians like you who will agree to disagree with calvinists while rejoicing with them that we have the same eternal hope in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:28).
@@Bonklers You as well, brother! Take care.
@@Bonklers Lutherans and Calvinist used to kill each other in the streets over dogmatic differences lol. Though I believe God's Grace extends outside of the Church, Christ set up a Church as well promised that the Gates of Hell would never overcome it. There is a reason He gave us commandments to keep, as well as the Sacraments. As Christians we would all agree that Baptism, Communion, fasting, and prayer are all part of the Christian life, or should be. Christ Himself said it, as well as set the example. So while I do pray that we all attain the unity of the Faith, we cannot simply fall to Ecumenism and other heresies that much more faithful Christians throughout history have fought and died for. Christ came and did works, and while works without faith are dead, we are commanded to work with faith for the Glory of God.
@@xAzureXHazex Amen!
It's very frustrating to me to see Calvinists assume that everyone else is automatically an Arminian. This is far from truth.
@@Bonklers Amen. But if you claim to believe that one is saved....Arminianian''s beleivevthat you can get unsaved....That's the irony. Blessings.
If there is nothing we can do to earn our salvation, there is nothing we can do to lose it.
Different topic.
@@cms123tube
It was in response to something Mike said in this video. Watch it all the way through and this may make sense.
But not to worry- you can still keep your Internet Sheriff's Badge.
@@dtuck3407 Duh 😉
Excellent point about faith and what the Bible says it is. For me it was love. We were created in God’s image, thus we were created to love like He does. He speaks, we believe. He calls, we respond. He loves us, we love Him back. Nowhere in scripture are humans depicted as God’s robots or chess pieces in His cosmic game. Instead, we are called His child and His bride. EVERYTHING is relational because that is where love dwells.
First off, thanks so much for being honest, humble, and committed to Biblical truth -- I have nothing but respect for that. I'm a couple years late to the game, but thought I'd share my comments anyways. :)
I think you've actually hit the nail on the head by calling this the Achilles' heel of Calvinist doctrines, because you're right: it is very easy to do a subtle little switch on the definition of faith when discussing this issue. As a Christian who aligns most closely with Reformed doctrine, I hate to admit that I've probably done this myself sometimes... So thank you for pointing this out! I will be carefully monitoring my speech in the future to make sure I'm not committing that fallacy when discussing this subject.
It seems as though this whole debate hinges on the idea of faith itself being a gift or not. Your explanation of the Ephesians passage was actually super interesting, as I've never heard it explained that way before! Makes perfect sense, though, and definitely seems to align with other Biblical teaching, so I think you've convinced me on that point actually. Based on my knowledge of church history, Calvinism (and Lutheranism for that matter) were largely reactionary movements, pushing back against the doctrines and thought processes of the Roman Catholic church, which included an awful lot of works righteousness around the time of the Reformation. As such, I suspect that this monergism/synergism debate (as applied to the idea of faith) was part of that reaction (perhaps an overreaction?). In more modern times, I think this reaction is redirected at many shallowly evangelical and progressive Christians who tend to have a 'me'-centered theology. Again -- this may well be a slight overreaction. But it is founded in a deep-seated desire for glory, praise, and honour to be given to God alone, a sentiment you clearly agree with based on your comments in this video! And I think that it is Christians like you who are able to hold that theology of all glory to God without sacrificing that you've assented to working with the Spirit and gospel in faith who are the Parises that strike our Achilles Heel, and, quite frankly, topple the argument.
The one place I'll strongly disagree with you is on what you termed the Lazarus example. (I'm not going to use Lazarus, though, since as you point out, Lazarus's story isn't totally relevant to this conversation.) So, let's take a common analogy for salvation. You're in the ocean, and you're drowning in sin. You can't really save yourself, hard as you might try. You can't summon a boat or a piece of dry land or a flotation device. Then, along comes Jesus in a boat and throws you a life preserver. In that moment you can choose to grab onto the life preserver and be saved, or you can choose to reject that and try and continue finding your own way to shore. From most evangelical Christians (actually most Christians in general) that I've spoken to, they'd say this is a pretty accurate analogy -- apologies if I've misrepresented anything! Now where the Calvinist argument comes in is that they'd change the analogy. You're not drowning in sin, you've drowned in sin. You're not trying to swim out of the water, you're enslaved to it -- in fact, you're at the bottom of the ocean, and dead in your sins (spiritually, of course). What Jesus does is not come by in a lifeboat and throw you a life preserver; rather, he brings you up from the ocean floor and breaths the Spirit into your being, bringing you to life. You're reborn. Now conceivably, yes -- you could choose at that moment to say "Actually, Jesus, I'd like to go back to being dead on the bottom of the ocean." But who, being awakened into new life, breathing clean oxygen instead of having been drowned in sin, would ever choose to go back? The Calvinist would answer no one. As with all analogies, this isn't a perfect explanation of how salvation works, from either perspective. But the reason I love the second one so much is it produces such a deeply profound sense of gratitude and being overwhelmed with joy by the saving grace of Christ. This is not to say that the first example doesn't produce gratitude and joy, but it seems to me that the second one resonates more with the tone of scripture. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this!
In any case, thank you again for all the thought and effort put into this video. While I'd still call myself a Calvinist at the end of the day, I don't think I could say in good conscience that Calvinist doctrines (or any single doctrine, for that matter) get it 100% correct. I've definitely wrestled with various elements of TULIP, and this is another to add to that list. Ultimately, it's awesome that you've opened up this discussion as a genuine search for scriptural truth, and I really appreciate your boldness, honesty, and Christ-centered approach to it!
Hey mike, just wanted to say thanks for your time! Really enjoyed it. Hope the Lord continues to work through you in this way
I think I had moved toward Calvinism for several years because it seems to fit the Bible most. However, you do bring me new points of view to God's words, and it seems possibly more Biblic, and that is just the direction we shall meet together in Lord, thank you my brother with great Amen!
Catholicism is biblical Christianity without all the late middle ages heresy.
My “gut” reaction is that the issue is with the logic of “if we have a role to play, then God couldn’t save us alone”. I had an Athiest logic professor that said something with similar logic “If God is all powerful, the fact that evil exists proves that God does not exist”. My counter to both is essentially this. God gave man freewill to choose, if we can choose it’s because God made us able to. Choosing to believe in Christ doesn’t remove anything from God or his ability, just like the fact that evil exists doesn’t take away from Gods goodness. The two are not mutually exclusive. My question, and it’s a genuine question so I would love an answer, is this; if we play no part in “answering the call”, then what is the purpose of the Bible being for man? Is it not to understand what God wants for us or from us? If that is the case then I would posit that God is giving us his word to make us able to answer the call. Like a telephone, I give you the phone so that when I call, you can answer. How do you know God is calling if you don’t know Gods voice? How do you answer a call you couldn’t receive? If you remove “your role” in any of the above, is it not “all” irrelevant? Doesn’t Jesus say “knock and the door shall be opened”? “Seek and ye shall find”? “Come, all who are thirsty, come to the waters”? Each of these has a role for us to play. We do not save ourselves but I believe God wants us to yearn to be near him. A gift that is given must be opened for it to be given/received does it not? That doesn’t mean we give ourselves the gift, but we must be willing to receive the gift in order to receive it. I saw a bumper sticker today that said “Please don’t pray for me” with a smiley face. Is that person not making the choice to disregard the gift?
This has got to be the best presentation that I've ever seen on the subject. Great job. Enjoyed it immensely.
Thank you.
Go to Beyond the Fundamentals.....where Steve Thomson totally dismantles 5 point Calvinism Beyond any reasonable doubt. Bless.
I’ve always thought of faith as an “action” but not the same as works. I always thought of works as anything done trying to upkeep the law. Calling faith meritorious is like saying the a action of accepting a present from someone is the same as you purchasing said gift
Calvinist here! I have to say this is the best objection to Calvinism I’ve ever heard. I AGREE that if faith is a free will choice, it is still not synergism, because faith is not a work. And faith isn’t necessarily predestined! Having a free-will choice in day-to-day decisions is compatible with Calvinism. Where I disagree with Arminianism is I believe God’s grace is irresistible. And if it’s irresistible and some are not saved, the logical conclusion that follows that belief is God MUST not call everyone who hears the Gospel to salvation.
But I also believe this is a secondary issue, and I also know I could be very wrong on this. The truth is we’ll never be 100% sure until the day we can ask God for ourselves. Arminians and Calvinists are both Christians and I believe that if you have faith and confess that Jesus is Lord, you will be saved. I just simply disagree with who all is able to confess that Jesus is Lord.
😊 Hi Mike. I know this is a 5 yo video, but so important to my husband and I. Could it be that faith is obedience to God’s calling on our hearts. Please answer. I believe obedience to God is an integral part of faith. What do you think. Is obedience a work? If obedience is a work why did Jesus say, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” It is an act of love not works.