I once did an AI dungeon playthrough where The south won the civil war and both nations mostly collapsed, and the Rump CSA left with land east of the Mississippi and the Rump USA in New England, Maryland, Pennsylvania, New York, Ohio and New Jersey were embroiled in Endless war. The player character was someone from OTL Virginia who Backrooms-style noclipped to this universe and ended up in the middle of a 1980s-era Battle between the CSA and USA, and escaped with the help of Harriet Tubman's great-great Grandson to The Quebecoise-Canadian Republic, Where I went to The Dominion of British Canada (in all Canadian land east of Quebec), where I took a ship to London, and got a letter from the South German Federation saying that a famous Producer from Vienna wanted to make a film about my alternate universe. I went to Vienna and found that the Producer was... Adolf's son. In this timeline Adolf never went into politics and went into filmmaking, and his son was following in his path. I thought this Adolf was better than OTL until I caught him after the movie was finished editing in Subliminal messages that would cause Europe to fall into mass Pro-CSA unrest. He ended up being sent to an old folks home in Munich. The film ends up being a classic. It was about WW2. Also at some point a CSA army somehow captured Paris at one point because there was a Memorial in Paris to an occupation by the CSA.
Do you know "Making History" by Stephen Fry? It's about a history student that goes back in time to kill Hitler and discovers some unforeseen consequences.
Do any civil war AHs attempt to address the fundamental advantages that an industrial economy has over an agrarian one? Any point of departure based on the outcome of a battle seems like it would just be delaying the inevitable. You'd need confederate infiltrators to commandeer the output of entire Union cities somehow.
Technically guns of the south does this. By the end of the book the Union now has started building their own version of the machine guns the time travelers gave to the south. And use them to invade Canada
Depends on the point in the war there WAS points in the war the CSA could win DESPITE everything, but thats largely because the US at that time would never have fought a total war the likes of ww1 or ww2 where they would fight to the end. If DC was ever captured that would likely have been it regardless of if the US would win longterm if they held out, there just would not be the willpower TOO hold out. And many often forget the particularly large pro peace movement in the union at several points in the civil war. All the CSA needs even if DC is somehow not enough is too wait things out long enough for the blow taking DC and wiping out the US in several major battles for the pro peace party to win the election. Does not even need to be the presidential election, just a significantly strong showing in the midterms to override the president and sue for peace. A good way I have also seen industry specifically addressed is by industrializing the south more prior to the war, as even moderate industrialization for the south would be a major gamechanger due to how many times the Union almost got overrun as the war was heavily about tactics, strategy, and freak events turning the tide one way or another and a more even industrial capacity would really hammer that home. Another means I've seen is the UK intervening economically to supply the CSA with all the industrial goods the USA needs and basically going, "go ahead, stop our ships, if you do, its war" hell im pretty sure I saw a small alt history story have the UK intervene military specifically because of the US blockade.
One of Turtledove's does. Jake Featherstone realizes that mechanization can make slaves redundant so he can gas them. The Confederates are basically Germany on steroids in this scenario.
Not necessarily. Just because the US can crush the Rebels doesn't mean they have the will to do it. A few extra rebel victories in the early/middle point of the war could sap Union morale enough to lose Lincoln the 1864 election, replacing him with a president who is willing to compromise with the successionists.
I mean if contemporary Southern lost causers thought this made the south look good, I don't think it can really reasonably be argued that that isn't a valid impression for it to give readers. Death of the author and all that. The interpretation is totally out of the writer's hands once it's published. It doesn't matter what the author was trying to do. I do think it's sad most people miss his commentary, but as you say satire is a fine line to walk and it's easy to go a bit too far. That said this story sounds quite good aside from the obligatory super empire and the social commentary.
I mostly agree, but it's worth emphasizing that how a modern audience interprets a text isn't going to line up with how a contemporary audience would. Not that I'm sure how contemporary audiences interpreted it. The book was published almost 70 years ago! If only I had a time machine that would let me see literary events like that in person...
@@timothymclean Please reread the first sentence of what I said. It explicitly references the contemporary audience. I was referencing a statement made in the video regarding the way contemporary lost-causers interpreted the book. I have to agree, a time machine to observe such things would be nice. A lot less disagreement that way. (though then you get normal sociology questions about how to interpret opinion and cause and effect)
There was "Must & Shall" where the North wins but Lincoln was killed a year earlier and Hannibal Hamlin became president and basically goes scorched earth on the south. It fast forwards to WW2 and only blacks have rights and the region is a hotspot for rebellion. Its by Turtledove so yeah
@The Alternate Historian Can we get a Pro-Union Civil War Alternate history???? Something like Lincoln survives, the South gets it's tail handed to them more so, and South loses so bad Reconstruction goes amazing.
For some reason, most people obsessing over how the Civil War could have gone differently romanticize the antebellum South. Or from another perspective, most people who don't romanticize the antebellum South don't care about how the Civil War could have gone differently.
What makes it pseudo history? Obviously the war had started over slavery, but what else is "psuedo"? The Confederates fought honorably, and thier leaders were gentlemen. The only reason you hate the south is because you're allowed to. Atleast Confederates didn't cause mass genocide of the native peoples of America after the Civil War because they thought natives all sympathized with the south
It verbiage regarding the nature of the ACW seems to indicate that you’re a court intellectual, probably for the USA. If I’m right, how can you accurately assess history when your ideology presupposes you to favoring some states over others?
I was never a fan of the "what if" mental distraction, it always end up sounding pretty dumb to me, unless it's about killer machines from the future that goes back in time to alternate the pit come of an apocalyptic war that will decide the survival of the human race. So yeah basically I prefer the different variations of the future, leave the past as it is that is far more entertaining to read it than wonder what would've happened otherwise.
Have you done a video on the mockumentary of CSA: The Confederate States of America? I feel like this "documentary" really does a good job of satire of how Southern Rewriting was done post-Civil War.
@@TheAlternateHistorian Um nothing? He did mention the book in the video and quickly went over the scenario. But that’s it. Didn’t say his thoughts other than a quick remark at the end.
I once did an AI dungeon playthrough where The south won the civil war and both nations mostly collapsed, and the Rump CSA left with land east of the Mississippi and the Rump USA in New England, Maryland, Pennsylvania, New York, Ohio and New Jersey were embroiled in Endless war. The player character was someone from OTL Virginia who Backrooms-style noclipped to this universe and ended up in the middle of a 1980s-era Battle between the CSA and USA, and escaped with the help of Harriet Tubman's great-great Grandson to The Quebecoise-Canadian Republic, Where I went to The Dominion of British Canada (in all Canadian land east of Quebec), where I took a ship to London, and got a letter from the South German Federation saying that a famous Producer from Vienna wanted to make a film about my alternate universe. I went to Vienna and found that the Producer was... Adolf's son. In this timeline Adolf never went into politics and went into filmmaking, and his son was following in his path. I thought this Adolf was better than OTL until I caught him after the movie was finished editing in Subliminal messages that would cause Europe to fall into mass Pro-CSA unrest. He ended up being sent to an old folks home in Munich. The film ends up being a classic. It was about WW2. Also at some point a CSA army somehow captured Paris at one point because there was a Memorial in Paris to an occupation by the CSA.
AI Dungeon is a national treasure.
Do you know "Making History" by Stephen Fry? It's about a history student that goes back in time to kill Hitler and discovers some unforeseen consequences.
One of my favorites.
A movie adaption for "Bring the Jubilee" should be very interesting.
It would probably be nuked by the left for being revisionist and the right for not being revisionist enough.
Hell yah this universe is awesome
Do any civil war AHs attempt to address the fundamental advantages that an industrial economy has over an agrarian one? Any point of departure based on the outcome of a battle seems like it would just be delaying the inevitable. You'd need confederate infiltrators to commandeer the output of entire Union cities somehow.
Technically guns of the south does this. By the end of the book the Union now has started building their own version of the machine guns the time travelers gave to the south. And use them to invade Canada
Depends on the point in the war there WAS points in the war the CSA could win DESPITE everything, but thats largely because the US at that time would never have fought a total war the likes of ww1 or ww2 where they would fight to the end. If DC was ever captured that would likely have been it regardless of if the US would win longterm if they held out, there just would not be the willpower TOO hold out. And many often forget the particularly large pro peace movement in the union at several points in the civil war. All the CSA needs even if DC is somehow not enough is too wait things out long enough for the blow taking DC and wiping out the US in several major battles for the pro peace party to win the election. Does not even need to be the presidential election, just a significantly strong showing in the midterms to override the president and sue for peace.
A good way I have also seen industry specifically addressed is by industrializing the south more prior to the war, as even moderate industrialization for the south would be a major gamechanger due to how many times the Union almost got overrun as the war was heavily about tactics, strategy, and freak events turning the tide one way or another and a more even industrial capacity would really hammer that home.
Another means I've seen is the UK intervening economically to supply the CSA with all the industrial goods the USA needs and basically going, "go ahead, stop our ships, if you do, its war" hell im pretty sure I saw a small alt history story have the UK intervene military specifically because of the US blockade.
One of Turtledove's does. Jake Featherstone realizes that mechanization can make slaves redundant so he can gas them. The Confederates are basically Germany on steroids in this scenario.
Not necessarily. Just because the US can crush the Rebels doesn't mean they have the will to do it. A few extra rebel victories in the early/middle point of the war could sap Union morale enough to lose Lincoln the 1864 election, replacing him with a president who is willing to compromise with the successionists.
I mean if contemporary Southern lost causers thought this made the south look good, I don't think it can really reasonably be argued that that isn't a valid impression for it to give readers. Death of the author and all that. The interpretation is totally out of the writer's hands once it's published. It doesn't matter what the author was trying to do.
I do think it's sad most people miss his commentary, but as you say satire is a fine line to walk and it's easy to go a bit too far.
That said this story sounds quite good aside from the obligatory super empire and the social commentary.
I mostly agree, but it's worth emphasizing that how a modern audience interprets a text isn't going to line up with how a contemporary audience would.
Not that I'm sure how contemporary audiences interpreted it. The book was published almost 70 years ago! If only I had a time machine that would let me see literary events like that in person...
@@timothymclean Please reread the first sentence of what I said. It explicitly references the contemporary audience. I was referencing a statement made in the video regarding the way contemporary lost-causers interpreted the book.
I have to agree, a time machine to observe such things would be nice. A lot less disagreement that way. (though then you get normal sociology questions about how to interpret opinion and cause and effect)
wow love that Gurps Alternate earths
I like your content but when do you buy a new mic
Anyone know of an alternate history where the north wins, but faster because of better strategy/better execution of the strategies from our timeline?
If not, some enterprising author is probably leaving money on the table :-O
Barring that, one where they win because of alien space bats or something?
There was "Must & Shall"
where the North wins but Lincoln was killed a year earlier and Hannibal Hamlin became president and basically goes scorched earth on the south. It fast forwards to WW2 and only blacks have rights and the region is a hotspot for rebellion. Its by Turtledove so yeah
@@mrcliff3709 Yeesh, the Horseshoe Fallacy is strong in this story. Guess even the best speculative fiction authors have the occasional dumb idea...
@@timothymclean yeah it was a neat idea when I first started getting into alternate history but I agree
@The Alternate Historian Can we get a Pro-Union Civil War Alternate history???? Something like Lincoln survives, the South gets it's tail handed to them more so, and South loses so bad Reconstruction goes amazing.
For some reason, most people obsessing over how the Civil War could have gone differently romanticize the antebellum South. Or from another perspective, most people who don't romanticize the antebellum South don't care about how the Civil War could have gone differently.
Gee, I wonder why authors who write about the Confederacy winning usually buy into Lost Cause pseudohistory?
Because Confederacy was cool
What makes it pseudo history? Obviously the war had started over slavery, but what else is "psuedo"? The Confederates fought honorably, and thier leaders were gentlemen. The only reason you hate the south is because you're allowed to. Atleast Confederates didn't cause mass genocide of the native peoples of America after the Civil War because they thought natives all sympathized with the south
Thanks for the video. Now I’m gonna have to find a copy of “Bring the Jubilee”! 👍
It verbiage regarding the nature of the ACW seems to indicate that you’re a court intellectual, probably for the USA. If I’m right, how can you accurately assess history when your ideology presupposes you to favoring some states over others?
Incredibly timely
I need to re-read this. I missed all these points but I was very young when I read it.
This was my very first “favorite book”.
I was never a fan of the "what if" mental distraction, it always end up sounding pretty dumb to me, unless it's about killer machines from the future that goes back in time to alternate the pit come of an apocalyptic war that will decide the survival of the human race. So yeah basically I prefer the different variations of the future, leave the past as it is that is far more entertaining to read it than wonder what would've happened otherwise.
Have you done a video on the mockumentary of CSA: The Confederate States of America? I feel like this "documentary" really does a good job of satire of how Southern Rewriting was done post-Civil War.
I can't but feel this was made in response to Alternatehistoryhubs Iceberg video.
Its not. Honestly haven't watched it yet (don't have the time to watch a lot of RUclips these days). What did Cody say?
What why? If this was the case then this would’ve been an iceberg video.
@@TheAlternateHistorian Um nothing? He did mention the book in the video and quickly went over the scenario. But that’s it. Didn’t say his thoughts other than a quick remark at the end.
@@TheAlternateHistorian Went on a big rant saying that he wished the South really did win
@@TheAlternateHistorian You can hear his take at 8:11,
ruclips.net/video/RiaVXDqEj5Y/видео.html
Buy a good mic dude it would improve your content a 1000% .