@@MikeyWoomer yup, people just like the convenience of being able to remove the sight with a twist of a thumb wheel, then using hex keys. Different strokes for different folks.
To be fair though with a direct mount sight you probably don’t have to take the sight off to travel. Most quality hard cases will accommodate a bow with a direct mount site attached since generally they don’t sick out as far.
With a dovetail you can perfect your peep/front sight, you can use it to torque tune, you can quick change multiple setups, adjust a multi-pin setup for different poundages or arrow weights just by moving it in/out without having to reset each pin etc... there are many legit reasons to use a dovetail. Sliders and fixed pins have their great points too!! I use all of em. Horses for courses.
Having a longer sight radius by mounting the sight further from the riser does not make the sight less accurate. It does exaggerate the same amount of movement and make it more noticeable, but it doesn’t create more movement which is the only way it can decrease accuracy.
YES! While I agree with the rest of the points...this one about the sight moving more and you therefore are less accurate?... Its just wrong. You can SEE the affect of hand torque more so it MAY actually make you shoot better because your more AWARE of the movement...maybe. But still, don't buy one for hunting thinking it's way awesomer😁
I agree completely with everything MFJJ said, except for the point you are making. Same concept as increasing the sight radius of a pistol. If you move/pull/torque the same amount with either sight, you miss by the same exact amount no matter what sight type/length/brand or style as you are torquing the weapon & not the sight itself . With a longer sight radius it is easier to visualize the actual sight movement (amplifies your imperfections) & make minor corrections to your point of aim, which will then correlate to your point of impact if consistent follow through is performed. The shooter "can" increase his accuracy with this increase in sight radius, as it promotes the concept of aim small - miss small...aka increases precision.
I totally agree, and if anything (much like a long stabilizer) having weight forward of the bow improves moment of inertia. I don’t run a dovetail bc of lower weight, quieter, etc. But accuracy is not a factor.
I run a dovetail Fast Eddie XL for a couple of other reasons. I remove mine and place it in a small hard case to protect it during cased transport. I am near sighted and wear contact lenses for vision correction. As I have gotten older I require cheaters for reading. I run a verifier in my peep to clear up my sight pin. The dovetail mount allows me more adjustment to fine tune my sight picture both in relation to the peep/scope framing issue and clearing up my pin with the verifier. I don’t use a bow quiver so the quiver mounting issues don’t apply for me.
By increasing the perceived miss margin of a shot it will make MOST people more inaccurate in the real world. It’s the same concept in long rang rifle shooting, more magnification is not better because it makes your aiming point smaller on your target exaggerating the miss margin making most people hesitate taking a shot and more likely to miss. Weather you agree or not that is the way it is in a real world for most people. MFJJ is teaching real world skills, if your skill level is above the lesson then move on instead of confusing people who will benefit from it.
Your torque would be identical whether it's mounted close or not, it becomes more noticeable when the sight is further away- thus, giving more opportunity for better accuracy because your flaws are more exaggerated to the eye.
Both sights work the same way- a pin to aim at a target. If you have torque (dovetail or fixed), you’re going to have problems. But, the further out your sight is, the more responsive your sight picture is to movement, which for some people can help with accuracy. Valid point about mounting issues though.
very valid points. I bought a dovetail sight for my hunting bow (fast eddie xl) so i could love my scope housing in/out to get the perfect peep alignment, without having to change peep sights.
Opinions on the sights aside, this was a fantastic video. Relatively quick but still had all the details you needed. Great presentation and delivery. Not funny but not overly serious. Felt like a good conversation. Well done, sir 🍻
Extending the sight radius does not amplify your errors, it just allows you to perceive them more. This can make you even more accurate by allowing you to adjust for inaccuracies. Come on lol
Plus dovetails are more expensive. Well said, I’m about 4 hours away on the westside of Washington, but once I find time and you are giving training classes again, I’m coming up! Keep putting out great content.
I know this video was made before the Mathews v3x, but I'm curious of your opinion with the integrated dovetail mount on the v3x which keeps the sight closer and also Mathews has the low profile quiver which would help with hand torque since the weight is more balanced
I got into archery a year and half ago. For the first year I really wanted a dovetail. Why? Cause I saw others using them and they look cool. But as I slowly educated myself on all things archery I changed my mind. When you watch School of knock, elkshape, inside out precision they don’t preach what looks cool they preach what works and what is tough out in the hills hunting. That’s why I just bought a direct mount Black Gold pro sight. It’s tough and it works. Thanks to MFJJ for the good content. You as well as the three I mentioned are my go to on everything to do archery and have been a tremendous amount of help getting me going in archery.
For someone who is just getting into bow hunting this video did me alot of good, Im a buy once cry once kind or person and I have been so confused on what sight to buy. This video helped alot ..straight to the point
IMO that's often times the point of these videos. Of course more are going to click and watch when a lot of people have dovetails. The truth is, people hunt with both setups, do whichever is more comfortable and makes you more confident
For 90% of people having a dove tail on their hunting sight is not a good idea but for those of us that go the extra mile and torque tune it is definitely worth it And with the increasing popularity of saddle hunting torque tuning would be a good idea for an increasing amount of hunters but overall a direct mount is generally the better option for a hunting set up in my opinion
I run a Black Gold sight on a dovetail mount and I like it. You did bring up some legitimate points. There a few reasons why I went with what I went with: 1) It’s nice to not have to take the sight off the bow in order to fit it in the case, because I can just slide my sight closer to my riser. 2) I like being able to run the sight out a little farther to further magnify my pin movement while at full draw - which can help train me to hold steadier. However, there is one negative to my setup. 1) I did find that you are right about the one piece quiver part of the video and I had to buy a longer spacer to run my Mathews quiver on my bow. 2) I will take my quiver off when I get to the stand, anyways, but I will say running a back bar would aid in balancing the bow if you wanted to run a one piece quiver and a dovetail. Of course, if weight was a concern, this simply wouldn’t work for someone. Great insight, Josh. Thanks for the video.
I love it. Exactly why i switched from a dovetail. western nebraska mullie hunt and my dove tail sight fell off in the middle of the stock. still got my buck but not risking it again.
I am near sighted, meaning, i need glasses to see far. I usually take my glasses off to look at something close or to read. I am having a problem using my bow, in whuch with glasses, i can see the target or deer well, but with the same glasses, my sight is blurry. I cant take my glasses off. Can you please reccommend a bow sight to use. I will not be shooting more than 40 yards.
You know when I first saw some of your videos I thought you were let's just say cocky almost pompous but I have since come to appreciate your expertise and enjoy watching your videos thank you
No BS on his channel, may not agree with everything but the man knows his stuff and has his opinoins/etc. I've learned lots from watching him, and remembered stuff I forgot about by watching the videos. Wish we had him here in Canada, I would never leave his shop as I would be picking his brain for knowledge.
Umm a dovetail does show more movement of your pin and your correct it does make you miss larger when you torque. THATS THE POINT! It puts a light on your flaws snd mistakes, makes you hold steadier using your larger muscles and execute your shot routine and trust your float. That does make you more accurate. As when your sight is sucked in more your flaws in your hold and executing your shot are not as apparent and you think you were holding steady but then you miss because you were not holding as steady as you thought you were. My learning to hold steady and trust my float greatly improved with a sight with a dove tail. As for the bow wanting to tip over because your quiver is not as tight well that’s why we got these awesome things called stabilizers that can correct that pretty easy. Yeah I’m not worried about the weight of an extra screw either lol I think that was a silly point. But I do like hearing a different viewpoint, love your content and keep the videos coming.
Levi actually made a video talking about how he likes the sight as close to the bow as realistically possible. He doesn’t like to stick it out very far
I'm going back to my spot hog fast eddie. The HHA tournament 4 pin has been nothing but issues with my V3X. HHA even told me via email that the only option is to use the dovetail bracket since I can't get the sight to the right even with the recommended bracket for bridgelock. . Spent near 500 for a boat anchor. And as you pointed out the tight spot is so far back and away it just pulls the bow away.
Also The farther away ur sight gets away from riser it slows the pin float down closer it speeds it up also sliding slights are great for torque tuning
It won’t make you miss more lol... the sight movement is exaggerated not your bow movement, if anything the amplification of your torquing helps you correct your form, making you more accurate
Agree with entire premise of the video but increased sight radius does not make you “miss by more”. Unless you are torquing more you won’t miss by more. It just amplifies the movement you see, the movement is the same as before. The float is no different, just presented differently. More precise, not less accurate.
Hmm I had a target shooter tell me to get that sight out further to tighten my form and shots. Well sure helped me. Dove tail is almost always out of stock where x frame is always in stock 🤷
I actually ordered my Black gold pro with the x-frame because of you on Dans channel… and I couldn’t agree with you anymore on anything you say on here… HOWEVER; I do have a Fast Eddie XL on a “shop bow” (because it was the best single pin they had that day) and I do like the ease of removeing it or moving it in while I transport the bow…. The noise difference, I can not speak on because I can’t really tell…. BUT the hand torque, HOLY COW it will show up like a long tail cat in a room full of rocking chairs
Also, I love how “no bull shit” you are… I know this is your channel, but your the same way on Elk shape and Brandon McDonalds… keep them coming boss!!!
If your peep and your sight are aligned over a longer distance, wouldn't this increase the accuracy of the line your attempting to establish between your eye and the target? For example if you exaggerated the distances for the sake of explanation, if the peep and the pin were only an inch apart and your alignment was off by and 1/8" over that distance your alignment would be off by 12.5% and alternatively if your peep was 10" from the pin and your alignment was 1/8" off your alignment would be only off by 1.25%. which would decrease the amount you would the the target. In my mind it is similar to aligning a pistol sight vs a rifle site. I admit I could be wrong, but that is how I typically thought of it and seems that a lot of target bows do not have their sites tucked as tight to the grip as they can get the sight for the sake of gaining more accuracy?
I really enjoyed the single take 5 minute information dense rant style of this video. Can we submit ideas for other prompts for you to rant about?: Why doesn’t the bow industry advertise reflex? A rant on micro diameter arrows. Axcel’s supply chain problems. Just a few ideas.
Only reason I use it is because the option 8s sight is matched to only one size oval peep. So I have to be able to dial in the distance my sight is away from the bow. Granted I pull it way further than most ppl mount their dovetail sight, plus it is not really meant to be taken off. There are two Allen key screws to keep it in place. I use blue loctite when I set it and it never comes off. That being said, I have always been a firm believer in direct mount. Weight savings being the number one reason. I tried a direct mount with the 8s but it is too close and I can’t see the housing.
I love my sight farther away from the riser so doves work for me in most scenarios. I've always be meticulous about bow prep and tuning so I cant say I've ran into any dovetail sights loosening up. Guess Im just a lucky hunter ; } End of the day use what works for you.
Good info MFJJ. I thought about adding a dovetail sight, been on the fence for a long time. Now I know for sure I will stick with my direct mount for hunting. Keep up the good work!
I have multiple target and hunting bows, I have one Axcel Acheive XP and one Axcel Accutouch Carbon Pro and multiple dove tail mounts that I bought from Lancaster for 40 dollars each, now all I do is slide in my Axcel Acheive XP or Axcel Accutouch Pro on any bow I chose with just a thumb screw instead of fiddling with tools!
Could just throw some blue loctite on a dovetail screw before taking it out hunting. Problem solved. Can still pop it off with a grippy pad and some muscle.
I got the wing truss a couple years ago. Switched to the x-frame last year. Like it a LOT more. It was only about $40 from the dealer. It’s lighter also.
There really isn't anything wrong with them at all... As long as you screw them up tight like you would any other part of your bow it's perfectly fine. Give you way more options for pin gaps and torque tuning.. this is just a very overly OPINIONATED video
I love my Fast Eddie XL and will continue to use it. You have some valid points, but its still just your opinion and preference. Lots of people have taken down animals with dovetail sights and will continue to do so.
As Always - MFJJ keepin it REAL! No fuggin around, just the Truth! I can only speak for myself but I really like and appreciate the straightforward No B.S.info!! Thanks for the technical info and GREAT topics that a lot of us don't really think about! You're making us better Archers 1 video at a time!
I know this is old but shouldn't be shooting with the quiver on anyway. Make more noise with all the arrows vibrating after the shot. That being said yes the direct mount is still the best option for hunting anyway.
I like your argument and am wondering, how this view is maybe altered after Mathews hit the market with its V3X and the dovetail mount in line. The quiver can be mounted even closer to the riser and the extra part holding the dovetail to the riser has been eliminated. Vibration might still be an issue, but you can have the sight pretty close to the riser in that setup. Would you still rather recommend a direct mount in this particular instance, or did Mathews really eliminate your pain points with this solution?
Videos are awesome. Have a Hoyt maxis 31 and just installed hamskea Trinity rest my problem is my Tight spot Quiver hits and interferes with rest. Had to put shims on it to clear. Do they make a mounting bracket that would put the quiver back towards the string more so I wouldn't have to use spacers and get it closer to the bow
The farther the bow site is from the riser, it can actually mitigate torque with field points. If you torque with broadheads, you're screwed either way.
Thank you for your insight, definitely food for thought for us newer bow hunters. It seems that most of your pts would still apply with the V3X, what are your thoughts on the in-line incorporated with the V3X?
Dovetails aren’t less accurate. I normally agree with him on most but dovetails aren’t even close to as bad as he makes it sound. On the v3x Mathew’s designed it for two reasons. Dovetails are better and generally a lot of shooters now spend the extra for a dove tail and it’s something proprietary to Mathew’s. Buy a dovetail put a drop of light weight locktite on it and go one. Green will work to prevent vibration back out. And odds are you’ll never move it once you get it where you want it.
Just got my self a nice Axcel dovetail sight a couple months ago on a trade. I've had a HELL of a time trying to get that thing fitting my peep and figuring where's the best position to mount it. I suck with that sight honestly and it'll be going back on the classifieds tonight while I search for a fixed mount sight to replace it.
Dovetail sights in general improve accuracy. That is, if you can control the extra movement. Having the sight further forward is not causing the shooter to move more, the movement is just more noticeable. This could be a good thing for the good shooter as they see minimal movement and can work to control it. It can be a bad thing for those that have problems controlling their sight alignment as the extra movement will make proper alignment that much more difficult. These shooters can suffer from a loss of precision with a longer sight radius due to the extra movement. For hunting, it does not make sense at all, I can agree with that.
@@d500mag2 I still do not understand that. More Visible? That makes no sense to me. Being more visible is a good thing, as you can control it more. That is the way I was thinking before. However, I think that I get it now. The problem with my thinking is failing to realize that the pivot point for the bow is not the nock. It is for the arrow, but the bow sight pivots off of the grip. This is where your deviation comes from. So, if the sight is further out from its pivot point (the grip) any deviation will be magnified in relation to the nock. When people say more visible, or more noticeable, that may not be a bad thing and I will argue that point.
@@alsmith7316 All that long sight did was show you that something in your system wasn't as solid as you thought. think of the center of a Ferris wheel pick a spoke. from the center paint the first 1 foot of it. Turn the wheel 1 degree. The stopping point of the paint may have only moved 1 foot while the end of the spoke moved 10 feet. However, if used as a line of sight they are both still pointed at the exact same point. A longer sight radius is a tool one can use to fine tune their system. It can be used to fine tune your form, stabilization, draw weight and draw length. A longer sight bar doesn't make one move more, it reveals how much one is moving.
@@alsmith7316 Deviation comes from face pressure also. String needs very little pressure to affect it at full draw. Some shooters will torque the grip to get everything lined up. All the eye cares about is the picture it sees, not how the body achieved that picture.
@@d500mag2 I agree with what you are saying it but it does not always apply to a bow. The arrow's (and the peep's for the most part) line of sight pivots off of the nock. The sight and rest pivot off of the grip. If the rest was right under the sight, then there is no issue. The rest and the sight will move the same amount. Problem is, the rest hardly moves at all, while the sight moved more. The longer the bar, the bigger the difference between the movement of the rest and the sight. This equates to worse aiming accuracy. If all things pivoted from the same spot, you would be correct. I used to think this way until I realized that there are 2 pivot points with a compound bow, so the rifle analogy does not work. If you do not torque at all, then for sure it does and a longer sight length is a good thing. The point that MFJJ was making is everyone torques the bow at one time or another and having a shorter sight length will be more accurate on those occasions. Levi Morgan says the same thing and does not run a long bar for that very reason.
I agree and disagree I guess , depending on the bow, my phase 4 33 with the integrated dovetail and low pro 2 piece quiver , is not affected by either scenario with my hha tetra single pin . HOWEVER, my old hoyt had nothing integrated, so yes that all came into play .
I'll agree with everything except the sight radius aspect. If you are torqueing your bow, the distance of the peep to the pins will not make a difference. In reality the longer the sight radius, the more forgiving the alignment. Another downside of extending a sight out however is that in a hunting situation is that you lose distance on the far side of adjustment and you run out of clearance sooner.
Glad to see this response. Was starting to doubt my logic - I agree with you on the topic of site radius. A sight closer to your riser means less up/down movement is required to effect change of arrow impact. A drift of a few mm with a closer pin would move the arrow impact much more than the same amount of drift further out…I also see his point (if this is one of his points) that it’s tougher to perceive your pins are steady when your sight is further out because torquing your bow (a mm to the left for example) would move closer pins much less than pins further away from the riser. It’s the same concept as how missing by an inch at 30 yds means missing by more at a further yardage. All that to say, when my sight is further away, I get a more accurate idea of where my arrow will hit, BUT I do lose clearance sooner.
In My opinion, I agree with the black gold dove tail being marginally heavier (aluminum bar, the new ones are hollow) , but the ability to adjust it to perfect site window outweighs that. Spot hogg dove tail mounts, you mention the hogg nob, you can swap that out and eliminate the problem as mentioned. I've always ran dove tails and love it. If people have a big problem with hand torque, I think there is a bigger issue than the sight itself that needs to be adjusted, that said obviously they are not for everyone and their setups. Personally I run carbon bows for hunting, so maybe I can get away with a few more oz of weight here and there without noticing that its a massive brick. Alas, Love your videos, just bored at work on a Saturday!
I love dovetails. If you know anything about the mil system with rifles you'll agree the longer sight radius. Only down side I've found, if your running a single pin dovetail is reaching up to move the dial go change distance. That movement alone can get you busted. I've been in hunting situations where I've had to dial and change yardage 3 times. Doesn't seem like alot of movement till you got deer running around between 25-35 yards. Other then that I like them. And on a side note. If you have a dovetail and suck it in all the way to the riser, you're an idiot. You've defeated the purpose of a dovetail and could of saved yourself $$$
While i agree with everything you said i still use a dovetail. Yes dove tail mounting screws come loose from vibration. Here's a cheat code for that. Dental floss. 2 wraps thru thr threads. Then tighten your set screw. It will NOT vibrate loose. You're welcome
I use dovetails because I can take the sight off for easier storage. Hunted with dovetails for years. Zero issues. Sounds like you look for problems just to look for them.
Only reason I like it more is that I can take it on and off for packing in and flying, but these are SUPER valid points.
You can take a X Frame off too lol for flying...
@@MikeyWoomer yup, people just like the convenience of being able to remove the sight with a twist of a thumb wheel, then using hex keys. Different strokes for different folks.
@@caninphx I use a dovetail sight too. I have both. For hunting I switched back to a regular sight
To be fair though with a direct mount sight you probably don’t have to take the sight off to travel. Most quality hard cases will accommodate a bow with a direct mount site attached since generally they don’t sick out as far.
With a dovetail you can perfect your peep/front sight, you can use it to torque tune, you can quick change multiple setups, adjust a multi-pin setup for different poundages or arrow weights just by moving it in/out without having to reset each pin etc... there are many legit reasons to use a dovetail.
Sliders and fixed pins have their great points too!!
I use all of em. Horses for courses.
Having a longer sight radius by mounting the sight further from the riser does not make the sight less accurate. It does exaggerate the same amount of movement and make it more noticeable, but it doesn’t create more movement which is the only way it can decrease accuracy.
YES! While I agree with the rest of the points...this one about the sight moving more and you therefore are less accurate?... Its just wrong. You can SEE the affect of hand torque more so it MAY actually make you shoot better because your more AWARE
of the movement...maybe. But still, don't buy one for hunting thinking it's way awesomer😁
I agree completely with everything MFJJ said, except for the point you are making. Same concept as increasing the sight radius of a pistol. If you move/pull/torque the same amount with either sight, you miss by the same exact amount no matter what sight type/length/brand or style as you are torquing the weapon & not the sight itself . With a longer sight radius it is easier to visualize the actual sight movement (amplifies your imperfections) & make minor corrections to your point of aim, which will then correlate to your point of impact if consistent follow through is performed. The shooter "can" increase his accuracy with this increase in sight radius, as it promotes the concept of aim small - miss small...aka increases precision.
I totally agree, and if anything (much like a long stabilizer) having weight forward of the bow improves moment of inertia. I don’t run a dovetail bc of lower weight, quieter, etc. But accuracy is not a factor.
I run a dovetail Fast Eddie XL for a couple of other reasons. I remove mine and place it in a small hard case to protect it during cased transport. I am near sighted and wear contact lenses for vision correction. As I have gotten older I require cheaters for reading. I run a verifier in my peep to clear up my sight pin. The dovetail mount allows me more adjustment to fine tune my sight picture both in relation to the peep/scope framing issue and clearing up my pin with the verifier. I don’t use a bow quiver so the quiver mounting issues don’t apply for me.
By increasing the perceived miss margin of a shot it will make MOST people more inaccurate in the real world. It’s the same concept in long rang rifle shooting, more magnification is not better because it makes your aiming point smaller on your target exaggerating the miss margin making most people hesitate taking a shot and more likely to miss. Weather you agree or not that is the way it is in a real world for most people. MFJJ is teaching real world skills, if your skill level is above the lesson then move on instead of confusing people who will benefit from it.
Your torque would be identical whether it's mounted close or not, it becomes more noticeable when the sight is further away- thus, giving more opportunity for better accuracy because your flaws are more exaggerated to the eye.
Both sights work the same way- a pin to aim at a target. If you have torque (dovetail or fixed), you’re going to have problems. But, the further out your sight is, the more responsive your sight picture is to movement, which for some people can help with accuracy. Valid point about mounting issues though.
Podium archery : dovetail sights aren't for hunting.
Mathews : hold my beer.
*Overpriced mathews proprietary sights*
Hold my beer…
There’s plenty of sight companies that have bridge lock options, meaning not proprietary. Nice try
very valid points. I bought a dovetail sight for my hunting bow (fast eddie xl) so i could love my scope housing in/out to get the perfect peep alignment, without having to change peep sights.
How did that work out for you? I'm moving in that direction for the same reason.
@Jon G works just like I had hoped
@@johnryan6356 ✌️
Opinions on the sights aside, this was a fantastic video. Relatively quick but still had all the details you needed. Great presentation and delivery. Not funny but not overly serious. Felt like a good conversation. Well done, sir 🍻
Extending the sight radius does not amplify your errors, it just allows you to perceive them more. This can make you even more accurate by allowing you to adjust for inaccuracies. Come on lol
Like shooting a snub nosed pistol vs a rifle.
@@d500mag2 No, like having a longer sight radius on the same size pistol.
@@torreyintahoe Like the longer sight radius of a rifle?
Plus dovetails are more expensive. Well said, I’m about 4 hours away on the westside of Washington, but once I find time and you are giving training classes again, I’m coming up! Keep putting out great content.
Of course they are more expensive they costs more to produce and are more complicated to manufacture.
I know this video was made before the Mathews v3x, but I'm curious of your opinion with the integrated dovetail mount on the v3x which keeps the sight closer and also Mathews has the low profile quiver which would help with hand torque since the weight is more balanced
I got into archery a year and half ago. For the first year I really wanted a dovetail. Why? Cause I saw others using them and they look cool. But as I slowly educated myself on all things archery I changed my mind. When you watch School of knock, elkshape, inside out precision they don’t preach what looks cool they preach what works and what is tough out in the hills hunting. That’s why I just bought a direct mount Black Gold pro sight. It’s tough and it works. Thanks to MFJJ for the good content. You as well as the three I mentioned are my go to on everything to do archery and have been a tremendous amount of help getting me going in archery.
Mathew’s solved every one of the issues mentioned in this video. Direct mounts will be a thing of the past.
For someone who is just getting into bow hunting this video did me alot of good, Im a buy once cry once kind or person and I have been so confused on what sight to buy. This video helped alot ..straight to the point
This guy continually turns my world upside down
IMO that's often times the point of these videos. Of course more are going to click and watch when a lot of people have dovetails. The truth is, people hunt with both setups, do whichever is more comfortable and makes you more confident
For 90% of people having a dove tail on their hunting sight is not a good idea but for those of us that go the extra mile and torque tune it is definitely worth it And with the increasing popularity of saddle hunting torque tuning would be a good idea for an increasing amount of hunters but overall a direct mount is generally the better option for a hunting set up in my opinion
What about the mathews bridgelock
What about the new Mathews dovetail setup or Hoyt picatinny rails??
I used a dovetail for years and never had a thumbwheel come loose, I understand its possible but very unlikely to happen if you maintain your gear!
I’ve used a dovetail sight for years hunting, 3D, target, all in one bow type of thing and have never had any issues.
I run a Black Gold sight on a dovetail mount and I like it. You did bring up some legitimate points. There a few reasons why I went with what I went with:
1) It’s nice to not have to take the sight off the bow in order to fit it in the case, because I can just slide my sight closer to my riser.
2) I like being able to run the sight out a little farther to further magnify my pin movement while at full draw - which can help train me to hold steadier.
However, there is one negative to my setup.
1) I did find that you are right about the one piece quiver part of the video and I had to buy a longer spacer to run my Mathews quiver on my bow.
2) I will take my quiver off when I get to the stand, anyways, but I will say running a back bar would aid in balancing the bow if you wanted to run a one piece quiver and a dovetail. Of course, if weight was a concern, this simply wouldn’t work for someone.
Great insight, Josh. Thanks for the video.
Thanks so much for covering this. Bought a Fast Eddie and hated it. It was way too heavy.
I love it. Exactly why i switched from a dovetail. western nebraska mullie hunt and my dove tail sight fell off in the middle of the stock. still got my buck but not risking it again.
I am near sighted, meaning, i need glasses to see far. I usually take my glasses off to look at something close or to read. I am having a problem using my bow, in whuch with glasses, i can see the target or deer well, but with the same glasses, my sight is blurry. I cant take my glasses off. Can you please reccommend a bow sight to use. I will not be shooting more than 40 yards.
1:30, it won’t make you miss by more, it will just make it more obvious to you that you’re torquing the bow.
You know when I first saw some of your videos I thought you were let's just say cocky almost pompous but I have since come to appreciate your expertise and enjoy watching your videos thank you
No BS on his channel, may not agree with everything but the man knows his stuff and has his opinoins/etc. I've learned lots from watching him, and remembered stuff I forgot about by watching the videos. Wish we had him here in Canada, I would never leave his shop as I would be picking his brain for knowledge.
Umm a dovetail does show more movement of your pin and your correct it does make you miss larger when you torque. THATS THE POINT! It puts a light on your flaws snd mistakes, makes you hold steadier using your larger muscles and execute your shot routine and trust your float. That does make you more accurate. As when your sight is sucked in more your flaws in your hold and executing your shot are not as apparent and you think you were holding steady but then you miss because you were not holding as steady as you thought you were. My learning to hold steady and trust my float greatly improved with a sight with a dove tail. As for the bow wanting to tip over because your quiver is not as tight well that’s why we got these awesome things called stabilizers that can correct that pretty easy. Yeah I’m not worried about the weight of an extra screw either lol I think that was a silly point. But I do like hearing a different viewpoint, love your content and keep the videos coming.
Plus if you torque tune the arrow rest to say out to 50 yards, Torquing the bow is minimally affecting the arrow!
Levi actually made a video talking about how he likes the sight as close to the bow as realistically possible. He doesn’t like to stick it out very far
What is your opinion of the use of a dovetail with the Mathews bridge lock system
I'm going back to my spot hog fast eddie. The HHA tournament 4 pin has been nothing but issues with my V3X. HHA even told me via email that the only option is to use the dovetail bracket since I can't get the sight to the right even with the recommended bracket for bridgelock. . Spent near 500 for a boat anchor. And as you pointed out the tight spot is so far back and away it just pulls the bow away.
Planning on buying a Copper John TST, supposedly helps with torquing and it’s closer to your eyes 🤷♂️
I usually disagree with you on allot of things. But, I learned something new today, on this video. Thanks!! 👍
Also The farther away ur sight gets away from riser it slows the pin float down closer it speeds it up also sliding slights are great for torque tuning
It won’t make you miss more lol... the sight movement is exaggerated not your bow movement, if anything the amplification of your torquing helps you correct your form, making you more accurate
Agree with entire premise of the video but increased sight radius does not make you “miss by more”. Unless you are torquing more you won’t miss by more. It just amplifies the movement you see, the movement is the same as before. The float is no different, just presented differently. More precise, not less accurate.
I am referring to when you torque your bow only......which everyone does to some degree
That's why you should torque tune. And torque becomes a non issue.
Ive a direct mount sight on my Hoyt Maxxis 31 bow and it’s not coming loose in a hurry
Hmm I had a target shooter tell me to get that sight out further to tighten my form and shots. Well sure helped me. Dove tail is almost always out of stock where x frame is always in stock 🤷
Please, do a new video with the V3X and the new Bridge Lock sight system by Mathews.
Well done brother. Simple and direct to the point.
I actually ordered my Black gold pro with the x-frame because of you on Dans channel… and I couldn’t agree with you anymore on anything you say on here… HOWEVER; I do have a Fast Eddie XL on a “shop bow” (because it was the best single pin they had that day) and I do like the ease of removeing it or moving it in while I transport the bow…. The noise difference, I can not speak on because I can’t really tell…. BUT the hand torque, HOLY COW it will show up like a long tail cat in a room full of rocking chairs
Also, I love how “no bull shit” you are… I know this is your channel, but your the same way on Elk shape and Brandon McDonalds… keep them coming boss!!!
If your peep and your sight are aligned over a longer distance, wouldn't this increase the accuracy of the line your attempting to establish between your eye and the target? For example if you exaggerated the distances for the sake of explanation, if the peep and the pin were only an inch apart and your alignment was off by and 1/8" over that distance your alignment would be off by 12.5% and alternatively if your peep was 10" from the pin and your alignment was 1/8" off your alignment would be only off by 1.25%. which would decrease the amount you would the the target. In my mind it is similar to aligning a pistol sight vs a rifle site. I admit I could be wrong, but that is how I typically thought of it and seems that a lot of target bows do not have their sites tucked as tight to the grip as they can get the sight for the sake of gaining more accuracy?
Man I like your vids you provide very good info for all archery questions thank you very much I appreciate your expert advice
I really enjoyed the single take 5 minute information dense rant style of this video. Can we submit ideas for other prompts for you to rant about?:
Why doesn’t the bow industry advertise reflex?
A rant on micro diameter arrows.
Axcel’s supply chain problems.
Just a few ideas.
Only reason I use it is because the option 8s sight is matched to only one size oval peep. So I have to be able to dial in the distance my sight is away from the bow. Granted I pull it way further than most ppl mount their dovetail sight, plus it is not really meant to be taken off. There are two Allen key screws to keep it in place. I use blue loctite when I set it and it never comes off.
That being said, I have always been a firm believer in direct mount. Weight savings being the number one reason. I tried a direct mount with the 8s but it is too close and I can’t see the housing.
I love my sight farther away from the riser so doves work for me in most scenarios. I've always be meticulous about bow prep and tuning so I cant say I've ran into any dovetail sights loosening up. Guess Im just a lucky hunter ; } End of the day use what works for you.
I have no complaint woth dove tails for hunting no issues
Good info MFJJ. I thought about adding a dovetail sight, been on the fence for a long time. Now I know for sure I will stick with my direct mount for hunting. Keep up the good work!
He's actually incorrect though.
So don't write them off.
He's usually a gold mine of good info, but everyone gets it wrong sometimes.
I have multiple target and hunting bows, I have one Axcel Acheive XP and one Axcel Accutouch Carbon Pro and multiple dove tail mounts that I bought from Lancaster for 40 dollars each, now all I do is slide in my Axcel Acheive XP or Axcel Accutouch Pro on any bow I chose with just a thumb screw instead of fiddling with tools!
Could just throw some blue loctite on a dovetail screw before taking it out hunting. Problem solved. Can still pop it off with a grippy pad and some muscle.
Recently bought a black gold with dovetail...😭 if only I'd seen this sooner lol
Lol, same!
I got the wing truss a couple years ago. Switched to the x-frame last year. Like it a LOT more. It was only about $40 from the dealer. It’s lighter also.
You can buy the bracket to switch it. Hunting season use the non dovetail
@@gwhalin you can switch it from a dovetail to a x frame.
There really isn't anything wrong with them at all... As long as you screw them up tight like you would any other part of your bow it's perfectly fine. Give you way more options for pin gaps and torque tuning.. this is just a very overly OPINIONATED video
I love my Fast Eddie XL and will continue to use it. You have some valid points, but its still just your opinion and preference. Lots of people have taken down animals with dovetail sights and will continue to do so.
My buddy lost his very expensive spot hog on a hunting trip.
As Always - MFJJ keepin it REAL! No fuggin around, just the Truth! I can only speak for myself but I really like and appreciate the straightforward No B.S.info!! Thanks for the technical info and GREAT topics that a lot of us don't really think about! You're making us better Archers 1 video at a time!
Great info and this answers the question I had exactly. Thanks a bunch!
Love it. Simple and to the point. Thanks for sharing.
Does this still stand true on the new Mathews v3x where the mount for dovetail is through the riser?
I know this is a old video so not sure if you'll even see this but what about using a dovetail in the bridglock does that change anything?
How does a direct mount compair to a bridge lock?
My favorite of your vids. Spot on advice.
I know this is old but shouldn't be shooting with the quiver on anyway. Make more noise with all the arrows vibrating after the shot. That being said yes the direct mount is still the best option for hunting anyway.
You've missed the main point of having a dovetail sight, which gives one the ability to torque tune their setup.
Thanks for the info. Information that would’ve been useful yesterday. Lol
I have a V3 31 with a fast Eddie. I need to find a good case for airline travel that it will fit in. It doesn’t fit my SKB. Hopefully I find one soon.
Skb iseries 4217 single....
@@joshjones6862 thanks! I’ll give you a call this afternoon.
I think he's 100 percent right... but each to there own
You had me at direct mount. Wait, what? I mean accuracy.
I like your argument and am wondering, how this view is maybe altered after Mathews hit the market with its V3X and the dovetail mount in line. The quiver can be mounted even closer to the riser and the extra part holding the dovetail to the riser has been eliminated. Vibration might still be an issue, but you can have the sight pretty close to the riser in that setup. Would you still rather recommend a direct mount in this particular instance, or did Mathews really eliminate your pain points with this solution?
Videos are awesome. Have a Hoyt maxis 31 and just installed hamskea Trinity rest my problem is my Tight spot Quiver hits and interferes with rest. Had to put shims on it to clear. Do they make a mounting bracket that would put the quiver back towards the string more so I wouldn't have to use spacers and get it closer to the bow
The farther the bow site is from the riser, it can actually mitigate torque with field points. If you torque with broadheads, you're screwed either way.
What does the Hoyt dovetail on the front of the riser do, or not do, for you in these regards?
Front mount is not what i would refer to as a dovtail. I would call that a picatinny
all of these points make sense except for the one about longer sight radius.
I always wondered which was better hunting man I wish your shop was in North Carolina.
Has the Mathews V3X changed your opinion with the Bridge-lock system?
Thank you for your insight, definitely food for thought for us newer bow hunters. It seems that most of your pts would still apply with the V3X, what are your thoughts on the in-line incorporated with the V3X?
too cool to answer
Dovetails aren’t less accurate. I normally agree with him on most but dovetails aren’t even close to as bad as he makes it sound. On the v3x Mathew’s designed it for two reasons. Dovetails are better and generally a lot of shooters now spend the extra for a dove tail and it’s something proprietary to Mathew’s. Buy a dovetail put a drop of light weight locktite on it and go one. Green will work to prevent vibration back out. And odds are you’ll never move it once you get it where you want it.
Which one you prefer on a mathews v3 or vx?
Just got my self a nice Axcel dovetail sight a couple months ago on a trade. I've had a HELL of a time trying to get that thing fitting my peep and figuring where's the best position to mount it. I suck with that sight honestly and it'll be going back on the classifieds tonight while I search for a fixed mount sight to replace it.
Dovetail sights in general improve accuracy. That is, if you can control the extra movement. Having the sight further forward is not causing the shooter to move more, the movement is just more noticeable. This could be a good thing for the good shooter as they see minimal movement and can work to control it. It can be a bad thing for those that have problems controlling their sight alignment as the extra movement will make proper alignment that much more difficult. These shooters can suffer from a loss of precision with a longer sight radius due to the extra movement.
For hunting, it does not make sense at all, I can agree with that.
It isn't extra movement. The longer radius has made the torque more visible.
@@d500mag2 I still do not understand that. More Visible? That makes no sense to me. Being more visible is a good thing, as you can control it more. That is the way I was thinking before. However, I think that I get it now. The problem with my thinking is failing to realize that the pivot point for the bow is not the nock. It is for the arrow, but the bow sight pivots off of the grip. This is where your deviation comes from. So, if the sight is further out from its pivot point (the grip) any deviation will be magnified in relation to the nock. When people say more visible, or more noticeable, that may not be a bad thing and I will argue that point.
@@alsmith7316 All that long sight did was show you that something in your system wasn't as solid as you thought. think of the center of a Ferris wheel pick a spoke. from the center paint the first 1 foot of it. Turn the wheel 1 degree. The stopping point of the paint may have only moved 1 foot while the end of the spoke moved 10 feet. However, if used as a line of sight they are both still pointed at the exact same point. A longer sight radius is a tool one can use to fine tune their system. It can be used to fine tune your form, stabilization, draw weight and draw length. A longer sight bar doesn't make one move more, it reveals how much one is moving.
@@alsmith7316 Deviation comes from face pressure also. String needs very little pressure to affect it at full draw. Some shooters will torque the grip to get everything lined up. All the eye cares about is the picture it sees, not how the body achieved that picture.
@@d500mag2 I agree with what you are saying it but it does not always apply to a bow. The arrow's (and the peep's for the most part) line of sight pivots off of the nock. The sight and rest pivot off of the grip. If the rest was right under the sight, then there is no issue. The rest and the sight will move the same amount. Problem is, the rest hardly moves at all, while the sight moved more. The longer the bar, the bigger the difference between the movement of the rest and the sight. This equates to worse aiming accuracy. If all things pivoted from the same spot, you would be correct. I used to think this way until I realized that there are 2 pivot points with a compound bow, so the rifle analogy does not work. If you do not torque at all, then for sure it does and a longer sight length is a good thing. The point that MFJJ was making is everyone torques the bow at one time or another and having a shorter sight length will be more accurate on those occasions. Levi Morgan says the same thing and does not run a long bar for that very reason.
Does your opinion change any with the way the V3X integrates the dovetail?
Thank you for explaining it! makes sense.
I bought a dovetail but I ended up running it right next to the riser. I agree with Brandon, easy on easy off, but that's about it.
ive got a dove tail on my recurve, its a target bow, and fits my case w/ the sight removed
I agree and disagree I guess , depending on the bow, my phase 4 33 with the integrated dovetail and low pro 2 piece quiver , is not affected by either scenario with my hha tetra single pin . HOWEVER, my old hoyt had nothing integrated, so yes that all came into play .
You guys should do a like head to head test with the 2021 bows
Can you recommend best sight for 3d archery? Im a newd.
Agreed 100%
Learned something new today.
More and more guys are buying these super heavy crazy target sights to hunt with. So much money for them too
Another great vid . You need to do a vid on your hunting set- up for 2021 .
Great discussion, but I’ll keep my dovetail Axcel Carbontouch :) it fits in my SKB Case
I'll agree with everything except the sight radius aspect. If you are torqueing your bow, the distance of the peep to the pins will not make a difference. In reality the longer the sight radius, the more forgiving the alignment. Another downside of extending a sight out however is that in a hunting situation is that you lose distance on the far side of adjustment and you run out of clearance sooner.
Glad to see this response. Was starting to doubt my logic - I agree with you on the topic of site radius. A sight closer to your riser means less up/down movement is required to effect change of arrow impact. A drift of a few mm with a closer pin would move the arrow impact much more than the same amount of drift further out…I also see his point (if this is one of his points) that it’s tougher to perceive your pins are steady when your sight is further out because torquing your bow (a mm to the left for example) would move closer pins much less than pins further away from the riser. It’s the same concept as how missing by an inch at 30 yds means missing by more at a further yardage. All that to say, when my sight is further away, I get a more accurate idea of where my arrow will hit, BUT I do lose clearance sooner.
In My opinion, I agree with the black gold dove tail being marginally heavier (aluminum bar, the new ones are hollow) , but the ability to adjust it to perfect site window outweighs that.
Spot hogg dove tail mounts, you mention the hogg nob, you can swap that out and eliminate the problem as mentioned.
I've always ran dove tails and love it. If people have a big problem with hand torque, I think there is a bigger issue than the sight itself that needs to be adjusted, that said obviously they are not for everyone and their setups.
Personally I run carbon bows for hunting, so maybe I can get away with a few more oz of weight here and there without noticing that its a massive brick.
Alas, Love your videos, just bored at work on a Saturday!
I love dovetails. If you know anything about the mil system with rifles you'll agree the longer sight radius.
Only down side I've found, if your running a single pin dovetail is reaching up to move the dial go change distance. That movement alone can get you busted.
I've been in hunting situations where I've had to dial and change yardage 3 times. Doesn't seem like alot of movement till you got deer running around between 25-35 yards.
Other then that I like them. And on a side note. If you have a dovetail and suck it in all the way to the riser, you're an idiot. You've defeated the purpose of a dovetail and could of saved yourself $$$
Thanks for sharing this great information
Forgot to say I have a spot Hogg real deal micro 7 pin with fixed mount.
While i agree with everything you said i still use a dovetail. Yes dove tail mounting screws come loose from vibration. Here's a cheat code for that. Dental floss. 2 wraps thru thr threads. Then tighten your set screw. It will NOT vibrate loose. You're welcome
Thank you for this
I use dovetails because I can take the sight off for easier storage. Hunted with dovetails for years. Zero issues. Sounds like you look for problems just to look for them.
Agreed, None of the issues he brought up happens in the real world to the hunters that use dovetails.
Rumor has it that this guy shoots with a dove tail.
Longer is more accurate based on degree of movement period
Awesome explanation!
Well shit. U just killed my joy over my piccatiny landslyde 🤨
Great opinion 👌 love the videos