I had the same drama with my 5.0 so i took the scroll pins out and pulled the gear and bush off then re drilled the bush 1/2 way around with a new pin hole about 40 thou to take up the gap that was 35000 miles ago never had a problem since , Great vid Rob NSW Australia
Hi there, well I'm not surprised there's vertical play in the distributor shaft. The Hall effect mechanism which generates the PIP signal for cylinder recognition and firing is very sensitive to this type of distributor wear. You could have checked the PIP signal from your distributor by monitoring the PIP signal input at the TFI module. The PIP signal is 10 volt sugared wave input with about a 50% duty cycle. You do need an oscilloscope to monitor this waveform, the problem you mentioned would have created jitter and or weak signal to the TFI ignition module and therefore No spark condition. It is important to know that the PIP signal is a base timing 10 degrees before piston TDC, during cranking the TFI module only uses the PIP input signal for spark control, after engine starts the CPU uses the SPOUT signal which is an advance signal of the PIP FOR ENGINE ADVANCING, up to about 30 degrees advance. The Ford EEC IV Ignition design is not very complicated once you understand it clearly , but there are several different type of malfunctions in this Ignition system which can make it very difficult to diagnose/confirm the defective component. I have an 86 GT Mustang and in its lifetime it has had three TFI Ignition modules, the distributor along with the pickup Hall effect sensor is original. Good luck.
Great video, I like how i got see what this actually looks like and while learning the symptoms your customer had. Also you explaining the long term effects or speeded effect! I have a question about a man rebuilt 10k mile ford lima 2.3l sohc 4 spark plug engine that i had for 1989 mustang since high school. Its the third year with this engine though. My symptoms that first appeared were dying at red lights as well 3 seconds before that light. Next symptoms were hard starts for 3 cycle times, then intermittently the car would try to start itself once or twice a week when i had got back in from the store and tried to start it myself on the first try. Then came no acceleration when trying to open the throttle for either cruising, passing, or uphill. Feels like it will go better when pressing 1/4 throttle or less then slightly increase the opening to half way to get somewhat close to that 88 bhp or less back, can you please point me in the right direction!!
This is exactly what my ‘95 F150 with the 302 is doing. I also noticed when it cuts out, the rpm gage drops to zero right away. It’s a stick, when it cuts out it’s usually back on in a second or two. Same no start issue occasionally. Again, during normal cranking, I can see the rpm gage bounce a little while cranking, then it starts. If it does not bounce at all, it won’t start. I’ve chased ground wires, fuses, relays, I will replace the distributor next. I unfortunately don’t have any diagnostic equipment.
I have a 97 and I’ve got the same issue and I’ve gone through the same checks. I even checked the distributor for play and found it to be solid on the horizontal plane like side to side but I have a lot of play up and down. I’m going to change it tomorrow with any luck and I’m praying it’s the problem. I don’t have a back up and I’ve taken so much time off work trying to fix it that I would’ve fired me by now so I’m getting desperate.
Thanks Jeremy for sharing the troubleshooting tips and methods. I was wanting to get a good NOS distributor as a spare without pulling my existing one to find out which type gear it has the steel or the sintered metal cast type. Where was that label located on the distributor body? I have a 1997 F-250hd obs 5.8L with 188K on her now that is my daily driver. Thank you for your time Jeremy.
To tell you the truth I can’t remember which gear it had. And the old distributor is long gone now, so I’m not much help to you on the label. I’ll try to do some checking tonight and see if I can verify anything for you.
F4TE (casting number) blocks built after late 93’ in the trucks were apparently roller cams and required a steel gear. The casting number should be just above the oil pan bolt rail and near the starter. Maybe that will steer you in the right direction!
I have a 95 F250 with a 5.8 I’m having the same symptoms. Truck runs fine when cold, warms up and randomly dies. it will crank, and crank with nothing. Let it sit 5 or 10 minutes, it starts back up and runs fine
I have a 5.0 liter and it's doing the same thing. I've tested everything and everything checks out except for the except for the holographic sensor going to the ignition control module. But if it's just the up-and-down play wouldn't that mean the vehicle would start back up if you just took the cap off and lift it up on the shaft as you were rocking it back and forth. Theoretically it would start back up again. And it does not quite explain why it would start after it cools down a little bit
@@steveh7108 So I bought a new Auto Zone distributor. I swapped them out ( got it within 4 degrees by eye) that solved my problems. Just like this video, there was a tremendous amount of up and down slop on the old distributor.
@@iamgriff I don't have any slop in my distributor shaft left to right or up and down. At least nothing worth mentioning. I'm trying to avoid buying a distributor until I was a way I could test for sure that it is the problem. I had a 95 Mustang 302 and I changed the distributor and ignition control modular and everything everyone told me to but it never solved the problem so this time around with my Bronco I want to actually find a proof positive test.
@@steveh7108 Yeah, I threw my wallet at the problem (work truck pulling a trailer) I started with fuel filter, the control module, then ignition switch under the dash, then a coil and solenoid, fuel pump relay, all in that order. A cap and rotor was half the price of the distributor, the PIP sensor was 25-30 bucks. I figured ala carte parts, plus my labor to take the old distributor apart. It was easier to get the new durolast assembly from the zone. Now old “Thirsty” is back to making me money.
I am hoping that this will help me with my '86 SVO, I remote located the TFI and now have a no spark condition. I put a new pickup in the distributor and noticed now that I've seen your video while pulling the gear off my distributor had about the same play this one displays. Thank you for the info!
@@monikhushalpuri not so far, I got a used distributor had it in the car couldn't get it to start I took it out and swapped in the new pip from my old distributor that had the play in it now I can't get the new distributor to seat back in, I think I may have mushroomed out the gear banging it back on to the distributor. That or that aux gear is a little out of line and I'm hitting teeth to teeth.
Hey buddy I have a 89 f250 with a 5.0 turns over, has spark at coil but not at plugs. New distributor and ICM, good fuel pressure could I have bad new parts? Thanks
Roller cam engines use steel gear. Flat tappet cams are cast. I believe Ford Windsor engines started roller cam/steel gear in 94’. Also, cast gear will look like cast…steel will be smooth.
Ive got a 90 f150 with 4.9 i just put a new fuel pump in a month ago. Last week i got in to go to the bank and it acted like it did before the new pump. It cranked fine but didnt try to turn over. I checked the fuel rail pressure (pushed the stem in on the valve) shot gas good. I grabbbed starter fluid and shot some in the throttle bidyband it tried to turn over. Did it a couple times and it fired up. Drove the hell out of it. Did fine for a week. Friend went to take it to work and i found a note it wouldnt start. I checked fuel. Ok checked spark with a harbor freight piece of crap plug in plug wire tester. It sparked 1 time on the first cylinder then nothing for several cranks. Tried the second cylinder. Same thing 1 time. 3rd same 4th same. Put it on coil to dist cap sparked like it should. Moved wires checked cap &rotor all are new. Very little miles on those and wires. Tried starting . Same thing crank no start. Tried today no start. Checked spark got nothing. Finally checked tester no continuity. Threw it down the street. Put a spark plug in the wire and grounded on valve cover bolt got no spark. Pulled dist cap.cranked and rotor spun steadily counter clockwise. I grabbed it to see if it woukd stop under pressure but it just twisted my wrist and kept going. Coil has constant power on one lead with key on off and on when cranking on the other terminal. My ignition system is different than yours but i wonder if that same issue would cause what its doing. I lifted up the rotor cap enough for it to pop off but i didnt feel the shaft lift or have any play in it. Im stumped. If it would spark im tempted to spill 20 gallons of gas all over it
Could be the same issue as mine. Might also be the ignition module. I’d check wiring too…sometimes you can find a bad connection by having someone else spin it over while you move the harnesses around and look for spark. Best of luck to ya…ignition systems and wiring can be nerve racking sometimes!
@@preachermanj not sure if it's good or bad but two of my favorite vehicles are jaguar and dodge. If you own either one long you will have extremely high garage bills or you'll become an auto electrical engineer. I've owned at least 11 jags I can think of ranging from 54 mk VII, to 69 E Type 12 cylinder to 2009 xk8 and as many mopars. I've put in my time wiring. Now I cheat. I built the painless wiring plant 20+ years ago. The owner owes me big time. So if I have wiring issues I get a gm color coded harness from them and get to ripping wires out. You can replace every wire in any car using their harnesses.
@@preachermanj dunno if you've had any experience with high end computer scanners for cars but we got a snap on computer when I was twisting wrenches for TECOM a fleet mgmt co for SWB telephone company. This would been mid 90s I think. This thing was 5k and if you took every mechanic in there put together they couldn't count to 10 without somebody taking their shoes off to use toes as a reference. I was chosen to run the computer on a truck noone could figure out. I went strait to the box to get the instructions. Figd someone smarter than me designed the thing so I'm gonna learn how to use it. Long story short my cuz was the shop manager. He won't read instructions. 1st thing he does is chunk those no matter what they are for. They've been jacking with it for a week before figuring out how to turn it on. I raised hell and called snap on. Dats go by before I get a call back asking what the problem was. Said I need them to over night instructions for the computer. The man laughed and said we thought about that when designing this unit so we included in depth instructions , tips and other help in the system itself for your convenience. I said great. Where's the instructions to find open and use the instructions? This fool had to look up how to look up instructions. Seems they forgot to have a section called instructions. After concuring that part I was shocked to fund the "shake test". I read what to do in diagnosing a particular issue and tried all but one. The shake. I hooked it up started it and started shaking the hell out of every wire I could get hold of. Inside outside under on top then killed it and continued. The whole shop thought I'd lost it. I said I'm following instructions if you idiots could read you'd know. Sure as hell I got to a particular part of the harness it said to shake and move in a particular manner and bingo found the short. I would have never found that even using a wire tracer ,cont testers etc had it not been for that test. Right there that 5k didn't seem like such a rip off. I've never used another system like that but it was amazing and I prob barely scratched the surface of what that computer would do.
@@davidreynolds4684I'm going to go under my hood tomorrow and do this shake test. I think my neighbors will think I'm crazy seeing me all week outside working on it too finally getting to me
@@2.3fox years back I was twisting wrenches for TCOM a fleet MGMT Co for South Western bell. We bought a 6000.00 snap on computer to diagnose issues. I decided to try this thing so I asked where the manual was. I got duhhh I dunno from everyone. I'm weird in that I tend to read instructions on things. I fig someone smarter than me made the thing so I'll learn how by using instructions. Couldn't find any so I hooked the thing up and started pushing buttons.At some point I clicked on shake test. So puzzled as I was i said WTF and stood in the middle of the shop holding the computer hooked up to a truck and I started shaking. They thought I was having a seizure. After admitting I knew that's not what it meant I called snap on. 1st I was told the instruction are in the computer. No hard copy. Also no instructions as to how to find instructions on the computer. 2nd I was told to connect the computer grab a hold of wires and wiring harnesses and shake the shit out of them. I did and it worked great. Before I did the test there was nothing wrong with the truck. No issues or codes. After the shake test I had shorts,open circuits,engine codes you name it. The genius that came up with that function on the tool was brilliant. I realize the purpose of the shake test but it can bite you in the ass about as much as it can help. If you get into a dash gremlin situation on this or any vehicle especially if Edward scissor hands was there before you and cut wires here and there don't freak out. If it's better to cut your losses than pay thousands to have it rigged or many thousands to have it rewired contact Painless Wiring. They make complete harnesses for cars boats race cars etc. All are GM color coded. All have specific detailed instructions as to what goes where and you literally go in and remove every wire in the thing and start from scratch. I demoed their original plant and built their new one a couple decades ago. If you're not colorblind, wearing a helmet and riding the short bus to school you really can rewire a vehicle without needing an engineering degree from MIT. I'm a Dodge and Jag lover. I've rewired a bunch of them before painless and after. They are the way to go if needed. It's in ft worth Texas. Coincidentally in an old Southwestern Bell Att building who's trucks I used to work on. Good luck
I had the same drama with my 5.0 so i took the scroll pins out and pulled the gear and bush off then re drilled the bush 1/2 way around with a new pin hole about 40 thou to take up the gap that was 35000 miles ago never had a problem since , Great vid
Rob
NSW
Australia
Good stuff brother. Sometimes it’s the simple stuff, other times it’s the nearly impossible to find.
Great video with valuable information that is easily overlooked.! Thanks again !
Hi there, well I'm not surprised there's vertical play in the distributor shaft. The Hall effect mechanism which generates the PIP signal for cylinder recognition and firing is very sensitive to this type of distributor wear. You could have checked the PIP signal from your distributor by monitoring the PIP signal input at the TFI module. The PIP signal is 10 volt sugared wave input with about a 50% duty cycle. You do need an oscilloscope to monitor this waveform, the problem you mentioned would have created jitter and or weak signal to the TFI ignition module and therefore No spark condition. It is important to know that the PIP signal is a base timing 10 degrees before piston TDC, during cranking the TFI module only uses the PIP input signal for spark control, after engine starts the CPU uses the SPOUT signal which is an advance signal of the PIP FOR ENGINE ADVANCING, up to about 30 degrees advance. The Ford EEC IV Ignition design is not very complicated once you understand it clearly , but there are several different type of malfunctions in this Ignition system which can make it very difficult to diagnose/confirm the defective component. I have an 86 GT Mustang and in its lifetime it has had three TFI Ignition modules, the distributor along with the pickup Hall effect sensor is original. Good luck.
Thanks for the heads up I will keep an eye out for that problem from now on. That's the kind of thing that can drive you crazy trying to find.
So Play no play. Makes sense to me. Got a 96 with an inline 4.9 but I do have spark. We'll keep this in mind
Great video, I like how i got see what this actually looks like and while learning the symptoms your customer had. Also you explaining the long term effects or speeded effect!
I have a question about a man rebuilt 10k mile ford lima 2.3l sohc 4 spark plug engine that i had for 1989 mustang since high school. Its the third year with this engine though.
My symptoms that first appeared were dying at red lights as well 3 seconds before that light. Next symptoms were hard starts for 3 cycle times, then intermittently the car would try to start itself once or twice a week when i had got back in from the store and tried to start it myself on the first try. Then came no acceleration when trying to open the throttle for either cruising, passing, or uphill. Feels like it will go better when pressing 1/4 throttle or less then slightly increase the opening to half way to get somewhat close to that 88 bhp or less back, can you please point me in the right direction!!
Man, i have the same car, same year and now it started to act up like yours..
This is exactly what my ‘95 F150 with the 302 is doing. I also noticed when it cuts out, the rpm gage drops to zero right away. It’s a stick, when it cuts out it’s usually back on in a second or two. Same no start issue occasionally. Again, during normal cranking, I can see the rpm gage bounce a little while cranking, then it starts. If it does not bounce at all, it won’t start.
I’ve chased ground wires, fuses, relays, I will replace the distributor next. I unfortunately don’t have any diagnostic equipment.
Hope that takes care of it for ya!
I have a 97 and I’ve got the same issue and I’ve gone through the same checks. I even checked the distributor for play and found it to be solid on the horizontal plane like side to side but I have a lot of play up and down. I’m going to change it tomorrow with any luck and I’m praying it’s the problem. I don’t have a back up and I’ve taken so much time off work trying to fix it that I would’ve fired me by now so I’m getting desperate.
Very good info, I wish I would seen this sooner...
Thanks Jeremy for sharing the troubleshooting tips and methods.
I was wanting to get a good NOS distributor as a spare without pulling my existing one to find out which type gear it has the steel or the sintered metal cast type.
Where was that label located on the distributor body?
I have a 1997 F-250hd obs 5.8L with 188K on her now that is my daily driver.
Thank you for your time Jeremy.
To tell you the truth I can’t remember which gear it had. And the old distributor is long gone now, so I’m not much help to you on the label. I’ll try to do some checking tonight and see if I can verify anything for you.
F4TE (casting number) blocks built after late 93’ in the trucks were apparently roller cams and required a steel gear. The casting number should be just above the oil pan bolt rail and near the starter. Maybe that will steer you in the right direction!
@@preachermanj
thank you very much
I have a 95 F250 with a 5.8 I’m having the same symptoms. Truck runs fine when cold, warms up and randomly dies. it will crank, and crank with nothing. Let it sit 5 or 10 minutes, it starts back up and runs fine
I have a 5.0 liter and it's doing the same thing.
I've tested everything and everything checks out except for the except for the holographic sensor going to the ignition control module.
But if it's just the up-and-down play wouldn't that mean the vehicle would start back up if you just took the cap off and lift it up on the shaft as you were rocking it back and forth.
Theoretically it would start back up again.
And it does not quite explain why it would start after it cools down a little bit
@@steveh7108 So I bought a new Auto Zone distributor. I swapped them out ( got it within 4 degrees by eye) that solved my problems. Just like this video, there was a tremendous amount of up and down slop on the old distributor.
@@iamgriff I don't have any slop in my distributor shaft left to right or up and down. At least nothing worth mentioning.
I'm trying to avoid buying a distributor until I was a way I could test for sure that it is the problem.
I had a 95 Mustang 302 and I changed the distributor and ignition control modular and everything everyone told me to but it never solved the problem so this time around with my Bronco I want to actually find a proof positive test.
@@steveh7108 Yeah, I threw my wallet at the problem (work truck pulling a trailer) I started with fuel filter, the control module, then ignition switch under the dash, then a coil and solenoid, fuel pump relay, all in that order.
A cap and rotor was half the price of the distributor, the PIP sensor was 25-30 bucks. I figured ala carte parts, plus my labor to take the old distributor apart. It was easier to get the new durolast assembly from the zone. Now old “Thirsty” is back to making me money.
I am hoping that this will help me with my '86 SVO, I remote located the TFI and now have a no spark condition. I put a new pickup in the distributor and noticed now that I've seen your video while pulling the gear off my distributor had about the same play this one displays. Thank you for the info!
Did this end up solving the issue on your 2.3t?
@@monikhushalpuri not so far, I got a used distributor had it in the car couldn't get it to start I took it out and swapped in the new pip from my old distributor that had the play in it now I can't get the new distributor to seat back in, I think I may have mushroomed out the gear banging it back on to the distributor. That or that aux gear is a little out of line and I'm hitting teeth to teeth.
Hey buddy I have a 89 f250 with a 5.0 turns over, has spark at coil but not at plugs. New distributor and ICM, good fuel pressure could I have bad new parts? Thanks
I would check the distributor cap/rotor first. Do you have the old ones to test with?
How can I tell if the gear is cast gear or a steel gear without a part number?
Roller cam engines use steel gear. Flat tappet cams are cast. I believe Ford Windsor engines started roller cam/steel gear in 94’. Also, cast gear will look like cast…steel will be smooth.
Have you every seen a black distributor modules
@@calvindickens3909 I have
Ive got a 90 f150 with 4.9 i just put a new fuel pump in a month ago. Last week i got in to go to the bank and it acted like it did before the new pump. It cranked fine but didnt try to turn over. I checked the fuel rail pressure (pushed the stem in on the valve) shot gas good. I grabbbed starter fluid and shot some in the throttle bidyband it tried to turn over. Did it a couple times and it fired up. Drove the hell out of it. Did fine for a week. Friend went to take it to work and i found a note it wouldnt start. I checked fuel. Ok checked spark with a harbor freight piece of crap plug in plug wire tester. It sparked 1 time on the first cylinder then nothing for several cranks. Tried the second cylinder. Same thing 1 time. 3rd same 4th same. Put it on coil to dist cap sparked like it should. Moved wires checked cap &rotor all are new. Very little miles on those and wires. Tried starting . Same thing crank no start. Tried today no start. Checked spark got nothing. Finally checked tester no continuity. Threw it down the street. Put a spark plug in the wire and grounded on valve cover bolt got no spark. Pulled dist cap.cranked and rotor spun steadily counter clockwise. I grabbed it to see if it woukd stop under pressure but it just twisted my wrist and kept going. Coil has constant power on one lead with key on off and on when cranking on the other terminal. My ignition system is different than yours but i wonder if that same issue would cause what its doing. I lifted up the rotor cap enough for it to pop off but i didnt feel the shaft lift or have any play in it. Im stumped. If it would spark im tempted to spill 20 gallons of gas all over it
Could be the same issue as mine. Might also be the ignition module. I’d check wiring too…sometimes you can find a bad connection by having someone else spin it over while you move the harnesses around and look for spark. Best of luck to ya…ignition systems and wiring can be nerve racking sometimes!
@@preachermanj not sure if it's good or bad but two of my favorite vehicles are jaguar and dodge. If you own either one long you will have extremely high garage bills or you'll become an auto electrical engineer. I've owned at least 11 jags I can think of ranging from 54 mk VII, to 69 E Type 12 cylinder to 2009 xk8 and as many mopars. I've put in my time wiring. Now I cheat. I built the painless wiring plant 20+ years ago. The owner owes me big time. So if I have wiring issues I get a gm color coded harness from them and get to ripping wires out. You can replace every wire in any car using their harnesses.
@@preachermanj dunno if you've had any experience with high end computer scanners for cars but we got a snap on computer when I was twisting wrenches for TECOM a fleet mgmt co for SWB telephone company. This would been mid 90s I think. This thing was 5k and if you took every mechanic in there put together they couldn't count to 10 without somebody taking their shoes off to use toes as a reference. I was chosen to run the computer on a truck noone could figure out. I went strait to the box to get the instructions. Figd someone smarter than me designed the thing so I'm gonna learn how to use it. Long story short my cuz was the shop manager. He won't read instructions. 1st thing he does is chunk those no matter what they are for. They've been jacking with it for a week before figuring out how to turn it on. I raised hell and called snap on. Dats go by before I get a call back asking what the problem was. Said I need them to over night instructions for the computer. The man laughed and said we thought about that when designing this unit so we included in depth instructions , tips and other help in the system itself for your convenience. I said great. Where's the instructions to find open and use the instructions? This fool had to look up how to look up instructions. Seems they forgot to have a section called instructions. After concuring that part I was shocked to fund the "shake test". I read what to do in diagnosing a particular issue and tried all but one. The shake. I hooked it up started it and started shaking the hell out of every wire I could get hold of. Inside outside under on top then killed it and continued. The whole shop thought I'd lost it. I said I'm following instructions if you idiots could read you'd know. Sure as hell I got to a particular part of the harness it said to shake and move in a particular manner and bingo found the short. I would have never found that even using a wire tracer ,cont testers etc had it not been for that test. Right there that 5k didn't seem like such a rip off. I've never used another system like that but it was amazing and I prob barely scratched the surface of what that computer would do.
@@davidreynolds4684I'm going to go under my hood tomorrow and do this shake test. I think my neighbors will think I'm crazy seeing me all week outside working on it too finally getting to me
@@2.3fox years back I was twisting wrenches for TCOM a fleet MGMT Co for South Western bell. We bought a 6000.00 snap on computer to diagnose issues. I decided to try this thing so I asked where the manual was. I got duhhh I dunno from everyone. I'm weird in that I tend to read instructions on things. I fig someone smarter than me made the thing so I'll learn how by using instructions. Couldn't find any so I hooked the thing up and started pushing buttons.At some point I clicked on shake test. So puzzled as I was i said WTF and stood in the middle of the shop holding the computer hooked up to a truck and I started shaking. They thought I was having a seizure. After admitting I knew that's not what it meant I called snap on. 1st I was told the instruction are in the computer. No hard copy. Also no instructions as to how to find instructions on the computer. 2nd I was told to connect the computer grab a hold of wires and wiring harnesses and shake the shit out of them. I did and it worked great. Before I did the test there was nothing wrong with the truck. No issues or codes. After the shake test I had shorts,open circuits,engine codes you name it. The genius that came up with that function on the tool was brilliant. I realize the purpose of the shake test but it can bite you in the ass about as much as it can help. If you get into a dash gremlin situation on this or any vehicle especially if Edward scissor hands was there before you and cut wires here and there don't freak out. If it's better to cut your losses than pay thousands to have it rigged or many thousands to have it rewired contact Painless Wiring. They make complete harnesses for cars boats race cars etc. All are GM color coded. All have specific detailed instructions as to what goes where and you literally go in and remove every wire in the thing and start from scratch. I demoed their original plant and built their new one a couple decades ago. If you're not colorblind, wearing a helmet and riding the short bus to school you really can rewire a vehicle without needing an engineering degree from MIT. I'm a Dodge and Jag lover. I've rewired a bunch of them before painless and after. They are the way to go if needed. It's in ft worth Texas. Coincidentally in an old Southwestern Bell Att building who's trucks I used to work on. Good luck