My suggestions: 1. Change the plugs to a hotter type. They all look too cold or your engine is constantly too cold. 2. Change the oil to a thicker viscosity non-synthetic type. 3. Check crankcase blowby. How bad is it? Does the crankcase vent near the affected cylinders intake causing those cylinders to suck in all the blowby? 4. Smoke at startup means leaking valve stems. Just because they were done recently doesnt mean they were done properly. 5. Relax. Old Ferraris are usually smoky. I think your biggest nightmare is if there are no problems and you now dont have anything to fix. Staying busy keeps you out of trouble...
From what I can see definitely smoke at 9:49 when you put your foot down and also earlier when you dropped it down into 2nd, there was (less visible) smoke. From the camera angle and the fact you are driving away from where the smoke is heading, it's hard to see with the camera, but to these eyes the car is definitely smoking under hard load, particularly in lower gears.. I'd get a mate to follow you in another car.. From their viewpoint any smoke will be much easier to see (and smell)..
Yes, I was kind of surprised Jack did not say this at the end of the video. Watching it on a big screen makes it easy to spot. As others have said try a few long runs with lower engine speed load pulling to try and counteract any 'glazing' , may or may not actually do that much but start cheap and work up.
@@chrisbailey1966 Yes indeed and in my experience, smoke on the overun when theres a vacum in the inlet manifold can pull oil up over the rings and then burn off when you put your foot down again .... at the speed Jack was accelerating he was leaving any puffs behind and were hard to see if there were any Mike
Yes, that’s very clear at 09:49. It was less obvious earlier in the video but is definitely burning oil under hard load. Suspect it’s only going to get worse. I’d have a chat with Scott at Ratarossa and see what he thinks.
Yes on your pulls "under acceleration" you can see an initial blow of blue smoke.. aka burning oil.. 07:59 rh side of the screen & again 08:13 "seems much heavier & for a longer period of time" again seems to be rh side of the screen aka drivers-side of the car with it being LH drive... 09:48 again you see the bloom of blue smoke ok an odd question, are you using the correct oil & what's the oil level?? as if its too thin or your oil level is too high it could be burning the excess oil/oil seeping through if its incorrect 'too thin' is there a oil breather system on the engine/cylinder head?? if so is it blocked hence oil getting forced into the cylinders??
Probably had lots of cold starts 'on choke' and may have been running rich before the carbs were adjusted so could be an oil dilution issue. I think the co is still high at 7%, I'd be thinking 4.5% would be plenty. The HC ppm are high either due to fuel or oil.
The carburetorated 308s all slightly bog down on hard left turns because the floats/ float bowl are transverse causing the main jets to starve. You can replace the standard needle valve with aftermarket ball bearing types or modified floats which allow for more fuel in the bowl.
@@gman68137 mine did that too on the track. Raising float to allow more fuel in the bowls cured it. Never bogs on any corner but oil pressure drops to zero on hard corners THAT is part of the character. :)
I think the correct test is to rev it close to the limiter in 3rd or 4th gear, then release the throttle until aprox. 2000 rpm and then flooring it. The vacuum when the revs are dropping will suck the oil in and when you floor it it should be burned, and the blue smoke will appear. Valve stem seals it is then.
I was going to write a similar thing. We used to have the car up to temp and then at standstill hold the revs at 2500/3000 for a few seconds. Back off until the revs drop almost to idle and then blip the throttle hard for a second. The smoke at startup would indicate valve stems. Oil can’t run up past the rings when it’s not running, but it can run past the valve stem seals. All a bit weird though given that the rebuild heads should be perfect. 🤔 Personally Jack, I think kill it with fire 😄, but you’re in it now and the only way out is to sort the damn thing. 🙈 I think it was a Friday afternoon car. That means it was built at the factory on a Friday near home time, when all the Italian workers could think about was the coming weekends women, pizzas and Peronis. 😄 I hope you get it sorted though. Will you buy blind from an auction again? As long as you learn from it then that’s experience gained.
That is a good test. I believe I saw at least two occasions when oil emerged from the exhaust with the rear view camera footage. Possibly three. Looks like Jack has found the cause of the car's occasional misfires.
100% see smoke coming from the video on the back of the car. Immediately when you are getting on the throttle there is a little puff of smoke. You can see it clearly at 8:13 and 8:14
One thing that I have learned a long time ago “don’t do a job halfway”, I know sometimes monetary constraints dictate a ‘piece by piece’ rebuild but in the end, in my experience, you ALWAYS end up either paying more, adding more time or have to do everything as a whole anyway sooner or later! However, I am impressed with your attitude up to this point…😉
I also noticed the smoke on accel, but to be honest, most classic carbureted engines smoke on acceleration due to the accelerator pumps slightly over fuelling the engine, hard to tell whether that is blue smoke (oil) or darker smoke associated with hydrocarbons from over-fuelling..
I agree with you, because I went through this myself, for a car like this, major engine with everything that could be replaced, be replaced. . . I know its expensive but you can't cut corners either.
erm, not really having older carb engine the main concern it to make sure its set-up correctly before looking for other issues a very simple example can be shown via the previous upload with the carbs being incorrectly set-up & the car lacking power, idling poorly etc etc if the cars set-up as it should be & you then encounter issues, usually the tell tail signs point the area's of concern oil being burnt valve stem guides failing/failed piston rings wrong oil used OR over filled oil levels excess engine oil pressures / breather issues etc & so on, they can all literally be ticked off & checked the electrical gremlins seen previously again checking voltage/ampage on the ignition amplifiers swapping amps front to rear checking for spark checking spark plug cables even checking earth cables to the amplifiers & the power cables as they could be faulty leading to a poor signal/spark on the x1 bank. 9-10 times simply taking a break from the issue & thinking about possible issues, doing some basic research you could find the simplest of solutions. this car simply has been neglected & clearly the previous owner knew it had issues
Check to see if the PCV system is dumping unwanted oil into the rear intake manifold. I am not sure how the tubes are routed in a 308 but usually there is a tube connected to manifold vacuum (usually directly under a carburetor). It might even be accumulating somewhere and then dumping periodically which could explain the sharp turn cut out.
A thought: pre-cylinder head- rebuild the engine was running a lower compression than it should have been. Effectively blueprinting both heads and new head gaskets now have the engine asking much more from the bottom end and oil is somehow seeping/being pushed into the cylinders. The engine sounds great and pulls very well and seems plenty powerful. Option 1: drive it like it is for the summer and see if it stays the same or progresses downwards. Option #2: If you can do without the car (and have the $$$) , have a shop pull the engine, rebuild the bottom end and button it all back together. OR......Call every Ferrari shop and see if anyone has a 308 block (no heads) in need of a rebuild and have a top quality rebuild done while you enjoy your car. Try to fuss over it less....Its running GREAT, not perfect but very usable. Pick up the block at summers end after you find a decent place to work and pull the engine and reunite the heads with the new bottom end....and reinstall it with a new clutch.
Exactly what I was thinking. Redoing the top end has increased the compression and pulled out the weakness in the bottom end that hasn’t been rebuilt therefore making it push oil past the rings?
It’s an old car!, to have no smoke/oil use would be surprising. It seems to drive well, no smoke up through the gears after initial startup, and pulls well. Apart from putting a brand new engine in it(which would be ridiculous obviously) why not enjoy it as it is! ........and stop wasting money on it.
Yes... chasing perfection on such an old car might end up driving you completely nuts. Totally put me off buying anything old.... my Dad loves his 356 because it keeps him busy but I would rather be taking a road trip in a new MX5 or similar and not worrying about it exploding. Not good for RUclips content if all is well though I suppose
He’s obviously not bought this car to get from A to B. It’s practically his life, well, hobby......but his drive for perfection is part of his character.......you either understand it or you don’t. But for us nutters it’s pretty clear what he’s doing.....
I think you have a valve guides leak. One of the tell tales apart from the fouled plugs is the stained driver's side rear tail lamp which I noticed when you backed out of the garage. That is a common indicator of oil leaking into the combustion chambers on cars such as the 240Z. It's gonna need a strip down and careful examination of the top end to diagnose it.
Jack, people are saying oh yes it's definitely smoking on the way back from having the CV Boot done. I have to say NO IT ISN'T. What that is, is smoke from a rich air fuel mixture when you floor it. You have to remember this is carburettors, old technology. We're not dealing with Ecu monitored EFI here. Even high bhp tuned Ecu EFI cars will puff a bit of dirty smoke out when you floor the. It looks fine to me and as for the startup. Nothing excessive their either. Your guy who reconditioned the heads would have covered his bases afa valve stems & seal. Enough said. Just ensure you use old technology oil and change spark plugs regularly. Drive it, give it a good drive, bit of a blast and just enjoy it. If you want to do anything next, take it to your mate with the rolling road dyno.
It is clearly burning oil now. If it was not burning oil before the heads were worked on then there is a good chance that an error was made rebuilding the heads. Perhaps the valve stem seals are faulty or the valve guides. It seems very unlikely that the oil control rings (on the pistons) would have failed when that part of the engine was not touched. Still, a fascinating diagnostic challenge, what a beautiful car!
definite smoke at 8,12 and it seems to occur after you allow the engine to decellerate after an acceleration and then boot it. This usually suggests drawing it in through the valve stems, which is odd with the rebuild, but could you have a worn valve or two?
Someone else has probably already said this, but in some cars valve stem seal replacement can be relatively easy. The trick is a bolt with the same treads as the sparkplug, drilled up the center. On the cylinder you are working on , you rotate the crank until both valves of that cylinder are closed. There are valve spring compressors that work from the top of the head. If you can that to work, you pull the plug, put in your drilled bolt and attach to a compressor hose. The air from the compressor will hold the valves in place while you change the stem seals.
for the oily spark plugs: had similar issues with a V6 engine. at the end, fixed it with new oil rings. I had a perfect compression, sorted out PCV and valve seals, still occasionally blue smoke, oil rings fixed it for good.
When you were originally removing the heads and asking if you should do a full rebuild instead, I explained in a detailed comment why a cranking compression test is not a good indication of bottom end health at higher revs on a running engine. I said a full rebuild was the best option to avoid top end performance issues. If you rebuild the heads on an an otherwise tired engine and the valves are now sealing as good as (or better than) new, the piston rings are now working much harder than if you had left the heads alone. Combustion and compression leakage has to go somewhere, and in this case it will pressurise the crankcase. Once you pressurised the crankcase more than it was before the vapourised oil has to go somewhere - it will be forced past old oil control rings into the cylinders on their induction stroke as well as via the crankcase ventilation system into the inlet manifold. It wasn't doing it before because the tired piston rings were matched with tired valves and valve seats. Now you effectively have a new top end making life far more difficult for the tired bottom end. You can see the blue smoke coming from the exhaust now that the crankcase is being pressurised. This is why I originally suggested doing a full rebuild while you had the chance. You could try venting the crankcase pressure directly to atmosphere (not legal in most countries) and it might help a little, but the only way to really fix the problem is to rebuild the bottom end to match the newly rebuilt heads.
Evening Jack... I had recommended doing the entire engine ... Alas , this is why... I believe you sealed the top end and stressed the lower end... Live and learn my friend , now i highly recommend the full rebuild (again) ... btw , if you suspect the heads , you need a new machine shop... Also she is designed to run sodium valves for cooling , never should've changed them , you added another variable ...
Maybe an engine flush with for example some products from Forté could help to reduce the smoke and clean up te oil rings? It is not expensive and (maybe) you don’t have to pull the engine apart.
I think I’d take it out for a nice long drive of around 200+ miles. Get it good and hot and see what, if anything, is revealed that sticks in any sort of conclusive way. Besides, it’ll be fun!
Hello Jack, think you should make sure the breather system isn't an issue (not saying it is, but best to tick it off). Think there is what looks like a "swirl pot" (oil vapour box in Ferrari speak) between the oil tank and engine air intake. Its job is to remove oil from piston blow-by gasses so they can be fed into the engine (to avoid polluting the world with blow-by gasses). There is a drain from this "swirl pot" into the sump so the separated oil can drain away - please make sure this drain isn't full of mayonnaise (from your previous problem). If the drain is blocked, the "swirl pot" will be become full of oil and this will get sucked into the engine air intake (and oil those plugs). A quick and dirty test would be to take the hose out of the air intake and put it into a "catch tank" and block up the hole in the clean side of your air intake. Be careful with this catch tank to make sure there is no way oil can get onto hot exhaust surfaces or your tyres if it overflows! Worked in engine development for the last 35 years - will send another message about comments colleagues in oil companies have made.
I think you have solved the last problem by changing the plugs. When Ian tuned it, the plugs were somewhat fouled so he may have tuned it a bit rich to compensate. Pull the plugs again, and see which look tan and which look dark and rich. Put them back in and lean out the rich carbs. Do Ian's hose trick and first listen to the cylinders you know are good, then the ones that are not. Adjust all the rich cylinder's idle jets to match the good one and go from there. I don't think you need to pull it apart again. Nice job. I've been enjoying your videos on this car.
Jack, I saw a puff of blue smoke in your rear view camera when you first opened the throttle. There was also a puff of blue smoke when the car first started. I’m betting on leaking intake valve seals because if oil puddles in those lifter bores, it will be drawn through a leaking seal when you first start or (if running) when you tromp on the throttle.
It’s burning a lot , when you start it up. As usual with these things, would have been good to do not just heads but a full build. When you refresh heads it puts more load on a worn bottom end . Personally, I’d go with some softer plugs to stop the fouling and thicker oil.
If the oil drain passageways from the head down to the block are clogged (by sealant maybe) the head will fill with oil. Valve stem seals are designed to be splashed with oil, not operate under oil. When you installed the new head did you check to see if the drain passages were open?
when you go round a corner, an HT lead is coming in contact with ground somewhere. check all the leads are all secure, unable to move under any circumstances
@@rossmoultrie885 Yeah, this had me scratching my head also. But I googled 'HT Lead" and apparently this is how the British refer to spark plug wires. So he is trying to say that a spark plug wire is grounding out on the chassis when the car is going through a corner.
@@Scott_6666 yes, HT is High Tension. it could also be coming into contact with another HT cable and the two are interfering with each other electrically
I had a similar issue with my 86 CJ7 due to a blocked crank case ventilation valve that was causing a build up of pressure. It also blew out the rear main seal.
It sounds great with the clean plugs, keep a clean spare set and a bottle to top up now and then …. Rag it and enjoy it, and stop looking for faults, be half full as opposed to half empty 😀
Smoke on startup which was very obvious when you started after it sat overnight. The amount that came out in that situation, first start would normally indicate that it's time for new valve guides and seals so talk to the people who rebuilt the heads. We have a long open 7% downhill in town where we do our throttle overrun smoke test, meaning start the downhill under heavy throttle for several seconds, lift off throttle completely and engine brake for several more seconds and then punch the throttle again. If you see a bunch of smoke when you hit the throttle, likely valve seals. Always good to have an observer along or mount your camera looking back cos sometimes hard to see in the mirrors. Also compression and leak down tests are mostly accurate when the engine is at running temps and with compression tests on older carbed cars, wide open throttle with all plugs out allowing the starter to spin the crank evenly and and as fast as possible.
Forget plug changes, this engine needs new rings. It doesn't need to be done by a ferrari specialist. Once the engine is removed its a straight forward job to remove the heads and sump pan. Leave the crank in place and remove the rods and pistons. Clean the pistons well especially the ring lands and fit new rings. Check the bores for any obvious problems, deglaze well to allow the new rings to bed in. All you need is a new set of rings and a gasket set plus if there's any noticeable wear to the big end bearings, a new set of shells. We had a similar problem with my brothers car but this cured the oil burning issue. There was a very small amount of wear to the cylinders, three were at their limit but the engine ran fine. Although not factoring in labour the parts used were only around £600. Some may pour scorn on this but if the rest of the engine is in acceptable condition, re use parts you have. My brothers car has since been fine covering now over 7k Miles with no loss of oil and clean plugs.
Stick with it Jack whatever it takes.... I love the Influenzo and your content on it , plus as I said the other day your personality and smile makes it all so watchable. Mike
Sorry to hear the saga continues with the influenza. Watching the wizards 308 video. He mentioned about the brake servo being transverse across the front bulkhead. Considering that needs a vacuum from the engine might be an idea to see if that vacuum pipe is in good condition front to back - especially where it connects to the inlet manifold. Also the wizard has junked the standard dizzies for electronic (distributor-less ) programmable ignition. Thus eliminating any maintenance or tolerances from the equation. As others have said. Check to see if the breather system is working correctly and is clear as this may cause high pressure in the crankcase forcing oil to enter through the rings. ... Have you considered changing the heat range of the effected cyl bank with a hotter/cooler plug range see if that stops the plug fouling? .... Another commenters mentioned previously about these carbureted engines were originally designed to run on 100 octane fuel, so maybe with our modern fuels the engine runs at different upper cylinder temperatures. ? .. If it's a blowing a little oil and everything checks out. Maybe just drive the car for a while won't do any harm enjoy the car. I used to own a motorbike and loved ragging it to 12,000 rpm, this Ferrari sounds so sweet - a real screamer become quite fond of it myself lol. Not really a Ferrari guy but can see the fun in owning one...
I'm a Porsche man, and I know you are too, but I've only ever loved the Magnum Ferrari. Loving your videos, with every car, always great to see when you post a new video so I can kick back and watch it with my G&T. Thank you!
I've got exactly the same problem on 1 cylinder on my Triumph Stag V8, oil contamination, I did see a lot of smoke when you started it up in the garage, you've had the heads done, you may face the inevitable. Good luck.
Get rid of the fine electrode platinum or iridium plugs. These are made for modern low pressure fuel injection engines, such as the Bosch Motronic. Any fluid on these makes them misfire. For instance, on copper electrode plugs, if they become flooded, you can take them out, dry them out and they’re as good as new. The fine electrode plugs cannot function anymore once flooded, even if you dry them out. Other than this, you should have serviced the carburetors before getting Tyrell to tune the carbs. The carbs have a progression jet. If that is partially clogged, it will do fine in idle and at full throttle, but misfire mid throttle. The normal process for carb cArs is: Remove carbs, Make sure the seating bottom of the carb is planed Take carbs apart and replace all removable jets Using a syringe inject acetone, lacquer thinner or such through every bore of the carburetor Take apart the acceleration pump and check the membrane Then put everything back together and do some old school functional carb cleaning: -run the car in idle -accelerate under the hood with one hand and choke one carb throat with the other palm until the engine makes a muted whine sound, then release the throat suddenly. This makes the carb swallow and clots of gunk that may have been dislodged by the cleaning and float somewhere in a bore where you can’t see them.
AND revving the b of the engine when it is cold is going to give you some new problems . I think it just needs a long run and another tune up. To be honest I would drive it like that and see how it settled down. Patience is a virtue. Stripping a Ferrari engine in a hurry is just expensive .
check the crankcase ventilation - on a lot of older cars they vent back into the carb to burn off the oil vapor. Sometimes if you look in the carb you can see oily deposit going into the inlet. Does it vent into the rear bank?
I thought I could see that as well. Given there is smoke on startup (i.e. oil getting in overnight) I also think the stem seals are the culprit as oil flowing uphill overnight (past the rings) would be strange unless there was massive pressure build up in the crankcase (which does not seem to be the case).
If it smokes blue on start up, after sitting overnight, I suspect a leak from above. Oil doesn't run up hill. You said it wasn't doing it before all the work, so unfortunately I'd suspect a valve seal? Also, I'd do a compression check, just to get a baseline for any future problems. I improved my 308's leaning out on sharp turns by adjusting the floats for a slightly higher fuel level in the bowls. It helped, but it still tends to starve on really sharp turns. Also, slightly hotter plugs to burn the oil off better. I wouldn't tear it apart for that small amount of oil leak. I switched back to real oil also. The synthetic seemed to find leaks. Cheers.
Also, what's the crankcase ventilation system on those? Oil being fed predominantly into one bank intermittently could be a result of the location of a crankcase vent line in the intake?
Was also wondering about positive crank case ventilation. Often they vent into the air intake. Don’t know in this case but it’s probably an easier fix than tearing down the bottom end.
Check your PCV system for function, it can often pass oil into the intake. Webers have a ball bearing check valve for the accelerator pump, if it sticks or gets gummed up your mixture will not get enriched with quick throttle movement as the accelerator pump will simply push the fuel back through the open check valve (ball bearing) into the float chamber rather than into the throat of the venturi. You can easily see the squirt looking down inside and stabbing the throttle from idle, just check that every throat is doing the same. Other hesitation causes can be from incorrect float level, blocked idle circuits (pilot bleed) that get adjusted over but then cause transitional lean out, and accelerator pump diaphragm leakage, linkages, and emulsion tubes. Blockages there cause rich mixture as the air mixed in the main jet passage leaves the fuel exiting in a heavier state at the atomisation point. The worst culprit is often ethanol based fuel, it deposits insoluble jelly into the carburettors circuits through condensed evaporation. I'd never put ethanol fuel into a carburettor fed engine. Good luck with it.
The only smoke I saw was at start up, none when you were driving! This would seem to suggest valve stem seals, so the oil left in the areas under the cam shafts are slowly dripping down the valves into the combustion chamber overnight when the engine is cool, then burning off when you start it up. Obviously as it warms up the gap on the seals tightens up stopping the leak, rinse and repeat etc etc
If you are not needing to add oil, I.e. it's not consuming oil from the sump, then you are not burning oil. First thing to establish is if you are in fact using oil. If not then dont chase things like rings, stem seals or PCV valve. Looking at your video, I'd be inclined to check your carbs, float levels or anything else leaking fuel or putting too much fuel into the inlet manifold. If you dump in fuel it will wash oil off the bones and give you a puff of blue smoke as you are seeing. The hesitation on cornering and bad AFR suggest float level as the cause of too rich a mixture. Hope this is useful
This was what I was thinking. Well it’s a completely different engine from a modern era, my E 39 BMW has an M 62 Tu V8 and I had crank case ventilation issues which gummed up my intake.
That is a smokey start up, valve stem seals, reminded me of a Cortina morning start up, always valve stems. The cloud out the back, rings! I really hope you keep it and show us you fixing it.... Brilliant channel..... keep um coming!!!
@@gulfstream-tvstudios9546 😂 Once everything is ironed out, it will be brilliant. I'd rather buy this one once it's issues are sorted than to buy another from an advert where it could be as bad, if not worse than the Influenzo. Better the devil you know 😈
I'm going to start a similar channel on the problems I am having with my 2010 Hyundai Getz. At the moment, I'm waiting for something to go wrong. Stay tuned!
Smoke on startup is from the valve guides, if it was from the piston rings it would be doing it all the time. The reason I say it's from the valve guides is that oil is moved by gravity, so it always moves down. I am an ex engine rebuilder (retired) and the main reason we used to see this is when the valve guides haven't been cut right.If it's the valve guides you'll obviously need to get them done again. Good luck with it, I moved on to electric cars and haven't looked back! lol
I'm waiting for you to replicate the Basil Fawlty scene from Fawlty Towers, when you give the Influenzo a 'good thrashing' with a branch of a tree ... (complete with Duck a L'Orange on a Silver serving Dish) ... 🤣
The Car Wizard .. the guy is a massive bluffer. I have never seen anything from that guy in the way of troubleshooting .. just constantly loading up the parts cannon ..
confused..... smoke on start up is normaly stem seals ? but you had them done ? smoke on pulling off, at junction, drop down a gear, ring seal, but if you getting good pressure test on cylinders ? the oil should still not be geetting past, wiper/oil rings seal are helpers.... check oil on dip stick, run for a week, check again..... if it dont show much loss.... dont worry.... wait till winter, nd pull engine in one
It's an electrical problem... oil leaks through the valve guides don't cause misfires... It looks like an electrical problem since it starts happening when the engine heats up.. check relays etc.. maybe the distributor again... alternator... you've checked the coils, but that's not enough... you need a good auto electrician to solve the problem..
I had the same oil/plug issue you are having on my 355 and it turned out that I had two cylinders that had bad oil rings. Do a leakdown test and check each cylinder, also find someone that has a borescope and have a look inside each cylinder and see if the walls have any abnormal wear marks. I had to do this and was devastated at the results.
as others have said, check crankcase blow by......Review the oil viscosity....and if all else fails, drain of some oil...run oil level just below Mid...go for a drive.... Are your breathers free/unrestricted.? Do you have a borescope.........? are the bores free from scrapes/scratches.... Also, rings take time to bed in........I had to put nearly a 1000 miles on my newly built engine before the start up smoke finally went.....You have a lot of start up blue smoke and a slight haze under hard acceleration.....Give it time to bed in.
To check if the piston rings are not sealing properly find a 2 mile downhill road, when the oil is nice and hot, when going downhill let the engine brake the car (2nd or 3rd gear), do not accelerate and then after half a mile or so accelerate hard. If blue smoke comes out then oils is coming up from the pistons. To reduce the amount of oil coming into the pistons you could also try a slightly thicker engine oil.
There was a fair old cloud of blue smoke at startup at 4:12 which could be a symptom of oil pooled on the valves from sketchy valve seals. Definitely smoking when you put your foot down in 2nd gear at 8:12 as well.
Too me the start up looks like valve seals are leaking just . The gas tank baffle may of broke loose both things has happen to my corvette. when you start it up do you push the gas peddle ?
I'd have torched this back in the day. When mine was a bit 'fluffy' , Angelo the mechanic asked me; 'you are a shaggee?' It took us some time to get to what he meant. It was, 'do you shag it?' I'd been pootling around Newcastle City centre for a few weeks and had never red lined it. A change of plugs, a change of oil to his recommended brand and a blast up the airport road and it was as right as rain. It was the 208 which I think I've mentioned before, but it's basically the same engine. Good luck to you
Oil: Does it have any accessories operated by manifold vacuum? (power brakes, etc.) Anything that uses manifold vacuum may be leaking oil or other fluid into the manifold (especially the bank with the worst plugs). Bogging in turns: Carb float valves may be binding when subjected to lateral forces, thus choking off fuel, or flooding the carb(s).
Hi bud,in the 1980s my car burned a gallon of oil in a week,it didn't matter because I worked in a garage so it was free. Try liquid Molly engine flush,it will clean the oil ring. Then put in some shell 15w40 and get out and drive it hard
Hi it looks like you get slight smoke getting back on the power after coming off the the over run which leans towards valve stem seals, if it was oil control rings you would get it when booting it, I had a car that drove great at normal speeds but as soon as you give it a bit it smoked (Bad) as the oil control rings were shot. I am older in years and worked in the trade for many years and have seen this a lot. hope it helps, I know you say the heads have been done but it looks like it is coming from the top end somewhere ? might be getting in through a hose, breather? not sure of the set up on that engine.
With carbs it's essential that the floatlevels are set correct. It's also a good idea to check the floats themselves to see if they leak. A leaking float will be filled with fuel that result in loss of floatation which means the float needle will remain open for too long. Which leads to a too rich of a mixture. Because a leaking float does no longer float it can't regulate the fuel level in the carb. Other things worth checking are the float needles. If those are worn you can adjust the floats all you want but the carbs will still have too high of a fuel level inside resulting in running rich. Personally i would pull off all carbs and check/rebuild them all, then putting them back on and do the tuning and synchronising again. I've seen Ian do the Italian tune up. Tbh , as i did lots of 4cil-4carb motorbikes i prefer a set of vacume gauges to do a tuneup- and sychronisation job on a multi-carb engine. All that said, if you are fed up with temperamental and finnicky carbs, maybe consider installing ITB's with aftermarket EFI? Get that tunend on a dyno and you'll have better drivebillity, more power, better fuel economy and more reliability. That would be my choice. With regard to smoke: white: coolant in combustion chamber > HG Grey: slightly rich mixture, normal when accelerating hard. Black: too much fuel, too rich Blue: oil burning, when it happens on the overrun(closed throttle) and then when reapplying the throttle it produces a sizeable blue cloud of smoke it's probably a valveguide/valveguide seal issue. Because the high vaccume on the overrun draws the oil passt the valve stems into the combustion chambers where it subsequently gets burnt. If the blue smoke is continuous i'd say it's probably blowby (worn rings) or a clogged positive crankcase ventilation system. Should be visible on spark plug(s) Blowby can easily be checked by removing the oilfiller cap with the engine running. If there is a constant stream of oil vapor pulses being pushed out then the engine has problematic blowby. On a healthy engine the oil cap should actually be drawn on the valve cover by a little engine vacume.
Don't strip down yet. Try a triple electrode spark plug. This solved a similar problem on a 308 for me about 20 years ago. I used Bosch plugs then but I believe that they have discontinued those plugs since. Try NGK or another make. If your leak down is OK then I would be very slow to open it up again. Good luck , Mel Nolan.
Don’t be disheartened mate, it’s needs a leaner tune from what I can tell and your description. I’d be looking for 12 at wot, not at idle. Try a leaner tune, you may even find that the excess fuel is helping the oil past the rings, it’s where I’d start.
It shows blue smoke on power clearly in the rear view video shot, what were the leak down test results , no mention of that. If the crankcase leak down is good it's not the oil burning causing the misfire. There's something else going on. Definitely fit some new plugs first, that's a must !
Burning oil on start up is valve stem seals. Overnight the oil runs down onto the back of the valves and into the cylinders once you start it up that trace of oil burns off and then you don't see it anymore. If your clever you can replace the seals without removing the heads, have the Piston on TDC on compression and slightly pressurise the cylinder with compressed air, you may have to modify or make a simple valve spring compressing tool to remove the collets, once they are out, remove the spring and inspect the seals see how much movement is in the guide, replace the seals fit the springs, compress them and then refit the collets. No head removal needed
Looks like carbon fouling due to overrich fuel mixture. 7% co2 is excessive, would imagine 2.5 +/- .5 for carbs. The plug temp will lower then plugs will look black and wet if the plug can't spark properly. Do the plug electrodes smell of petrol? Some blue smoke at start up would be normal for an engine design of the 70's I wouldn't think it'll be valve stem seals if the heads have been rebuilt. Good luck 🤞
There was probably some residual oil from the rebuild, Try plugs a few times, clean 1set run another, may bed in and clear from Italian tune-up..?? Be surprised if valves are letting after top rebuild!! But as we never got bottom end open the oil rings may be at fault.? But it sounds good now when you open it up.. Oh yes petrol tank baffle maybe on the starving issue. Top job on Your channel.. people love the mistery n journey..so it will keep us hooked?? Paul.
All the blue smoke at 4.15 indicates that the oil has been dripping from above over night and collecting in the cylinders. I think its valve stem seals personally 👍 Also no smoke on full throttle and good compression indicates oil control rings are OK.. also check breather pipes aren't cycling oil into the inlet
If it is oil scraper rings I’ve had success freeing them up using Seafoam. Older MX5’s are renowned for them sticking if you don’t use the car much. I got oil consumption down from “ridiculous” 0.5 litre in 75 miles to “acceptable” 0.5 litres per 1000 miles. Soaked the pistons through spark plug holes topping up when it drains through, then replace oil after 48 hours of soaking. No idea if Ferrari engines suffer the same problem but might be worth a look.
Re the mis-fire, what spark plugs and fuel are you using and do you use an octane booster with it? If you aren’t already, try using a set of hotter plugs with high octane unleaded plus an octane booster. I’ve experienced similar oiling/sooting up problems with Lotus twin cam engines and it makes a massive difference.
Stay strong sir! A master class in car knowledge, resourcefulness and resilience. I think a lot of people here would chip in for a crowd funding to get you an extra pair of hands and eyes!
OK, before I start, this was on a Rover V8 (in a TVR) which is very different, BUT, the issues were very, very similar to yours so it might be worth looking at. Symptoms were oiled plugs, misfiring. Like you, I thought oil come from two places, rings or valves, but there is a third source, oil breathers. On the rover, the rocker covers act as pressure balancing chambers - a breather on the top of one rocker cover provides inlet air to balance the suction of fumes into the inlet manifold. The inlet breather was blocked, which caused too much suction and too much oil being burned, especially at high depression = with choke on or on over run. I don't know the details of the Ferrari engine, but I would check the breathing system first carefully.
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My suggestions:
1. Change the plugs to a hotter type. They all look too cold or your engine is constantly too cold.
2. Change the oil to a thicker viscosity non-synthetic type.
3. Check crankcase blowby. How bad is it? Does the crankcase vent near the affected cylinders intake causing those cylinders to suck in all the blowby?
4. Smoke at startup means leaking valve stems. Just because they were done recently doesnt mean they were done properly.
5. Relax. Old Ferraris are usually smoky.
I think your biggest nightmare is if there are no problems and you now dont have anything to fix. Staying busy keeps you out of trouble...
Instead of hotter plugs try driving it harder.
Valve stem seals should have been replaced on overhaul. False economy not doing it.
Good advice from both Dave & Alex.
From what I can see definitely smoke at 9:49 when you put your foot down and also earlier when you dropped it down into 2nd, there was (less visible) smoke. From the camera angle and the fact you are driving away from where the smoke is heading, it's hard to see with the camera, but to these eyes the car is definitely smoking under hard load, particularly in lower gears.. I'd get a mate to follow you in another car.. From their viewpoint any smoke will be much easier to see (and smell)..
Yes, I was kind of surprised Jack did not say this at the end of the video. Watching it on a big screen makes it easy to spot. As others have said try a few long runs with lower engine speed load pulling to try and counteract any 'glazing' , may or may not actually do that much but start cheap and work up.
@@chrisbailey1966 Yes indeed and in my experience, smoke on the overun when theres a vacum in the inlet manifold can pull oil up over the rings and then burn off when you put your foot down again .... at the speed Jack was accelerating he was leaving any puffs behind and were hard to see if there were any
Mike
Yup. I second that. Definite clouds of smoke.
I did notice that too, clearly burning oil at differmt rev paces
Yes, that’s very clear at 09:49. It was less obvious earlier in the video but is definitely burning oil under hard load. Suspect it’s only going to get worse. I’d have a chat with Scott at Ratarossa and see what he thinks.
Yes on your pulls "under acceleration" you can see an initial blow of blue smoke.. aka burning oil..
07:59 rh side of the screen
& again 08:13 "seems much heavier & for a longer period of time" again seems to be rh side of the screen aka drivers-side of the car with it being LH drive...
09:48 again you see the bloom of blue smoke
ok an odd question, are you using the correct oil & what's the oil level?? as if its too thin or your oil level is too high it could be burning the excess oil/oil seeping through if its incorrect 'too thin'
is there a oil breather system on the engine/cylinder head?? if so is it blocked hence oil getting forced into the cylinders??
and it is the rear bank of cylinders that are affected. Oil surging on acceleration sounds a reasonable theory.
My thought exactly. Great summary! Can definitely see the smoke when pulling.
Agreed, I could see blue smoke as well.
Probably had lots of cold starts 'on choke' and may have been running rich before the carbs were adjusted so could be an oil dilution issue. I think the co is still high at 7%, I'd be thinking 4.5% would be plenty. The HC ppm are high either due to fuel or oil.
Good advice! Maybe drop the sump and fit some kind of baffle (if a kit is available) or an aftermarket baffled sump.
The carburetorated 308s all slightly bog down on hard left turns because the floats/ float bowl are transverse causing the main jets to starve. You can replace the standard needle valve with aftermarket ball bearing types or modified floats which allow for more fuel in the bowl.
Absolutely correct , in addition, less than fully set and balanced carbs are responsible for a whole heap of problems.
Mine did that, too. It's part of the character.
ruclips.net/video/5o5x8JFc1vw/видео.html
@@gman68137 mine did that too on the track. Raising float to allow more fuel in the bowls cured it. Never bogs on any corner but oil pressure drops to zero on hard corners THAT is part of the character. :)
I think the correct test is to rev it close to the limiter in 3rd or 4th gear, then release the throttle until aprox. 2000 rpm and then flooring it. The vacuum when the revs are dropping will suck the oil in and when you floor it it should be burned, and the blue smoke will appear. Valve stem seals it is then.
I was going to write a similar thing.
We used to have the car up to temp and then at standstill hold the revs at 2500/3000 for a few seconds. Back off until the revs drop almost to idle and then blip the throttle hard for a second.
The smoke at startup would indicate valve stems. Oil can’t run up past the rings when it’s not running, but it can run past the valve stem seals.
All a bit weird though given that the rebuild heads should be perfect. 🤔
Personally Jack, I think kill it with fire 😄, but you’re in it now and the only way out is to sort the damn thing. 🙈
I think it was a Friday afternoon car.
That means it was built at the factory on a Friday near home time, when all the Italian workers could think about was the coming weekends women, pizzas and Peronis. 😄
I hope you get it sorted though.
Will you buy blind from an auction again?
As long as you learn from it then that’s experience gained.
That is a good test. I believe I saw at least two occasions
when oil emerged from the exhaust with the rear view camera footage. Possibly three.
Looks like Jack has found the cause of the car's occasional misfires.
100% see smoke coming from the video on the back of the car. Immediately when you are getting on the throttle there is a little puff of smoke. You can see it clearly at 8:13 and 8:14
Yup, saw it too.
It's quite clear. Definite smoke.
Very easy to see!
Definitely
One thing that I have learned a long time ago “don’t do a job halfway”, I know sometimes monetary constraints dictate a ‘piece by piece’ rebuild but in the end, in my experience, you ALWAYS end up either paying more, adding more time or have to do everything as a whole anyway sooner or later!
However, I am impressed with your attitude up to this point…😉
I also noticed the smoke on accel, but to be honest, most classic carbureted engines smoke on acceleration due to the accelerator pumps slightly over fuelling the engine, hard to tell whether that is blue smoke (oil) or darker smoke associated with hydrocarbons from over-fuelling..
@@namibgtv6 , this one was definitely blue (oil) unfortunately
I agree with you, because I went through this myself, for a car like this, major engine with everything that could be replaced, be replaced. . . I know its expensive but you can't cut corners either.
erm, not really having older carb engine the main concern it to make sure its set-up correctly before looking for other issues
a very simple example can be shown via the previous upload with the carbs being incorrectly set-up & the car lacking power, idling poorly etc etc
if the cars set-up as it should be & you then encounter issues, usually the tell tail signs point the area's of concern
oil being burnt
valve stem guides failing/failed
piston rings
wrong oil used OR over filled oil levels
excess engine oil pressures / breather issues etc
& so on, they can all literally be ticked off & checked
the electrical gremlins seen previously
again
checking voltage/ampage on the ignition amplifiers
swapping amps front to rear
checking for spark
checking spark plug cables
even checking earth cables to the amplifiers & the power cables as they could be faulty leading to a poor signal/spark on the x1 bank.
9-10 times simply taking a break from the issue & thinking about possible issues, doing some basic research you could find the simplest of solutions.
this car simply has been neglected & clearly the previous owner knew it had issues
Check to see if the PCV system is dumping unwanted oil into the rear intake manifold. I am not sure how the tubes are routed in a 308 but usually there is a tube connected to manifold vacuum (usually directly under a carburetor). It might even be accumulating somewhere and then dumping periodically which could explain the sharp turn cut out.
My thought as well. As he's eliminated rings and valve guide seals it leaves it an item not replaced, or that might have been upset in the rebuild.
I would consider this part of the "character" and try to enjoy it for the summer before considering parking it for yet another long teardown.
yep,,, enjoy the car & grab some well deserved sun at the side of the road sun bathing next tot eh broken down car....
A thought: pre-cylinder head- rebuild the engine was running a lower compression than it should have been. Effectively blueprinting both heads and new head gaskets now have the engine asking much more from the bottom end and oil is somehow seeping/being pushed into the cylinders. The engine sounds great and pulls very well and seems plenty powerful. Option 1: drive it like it is for the summer and see if it stays the same or progresses downwards. Option #2: If you can do without the car (and have the $$$) , have a shop pull the engine, rebuild the bottom end and button it all back together. OR......Call every Ferrari shop and see if anyone has a 308 block (no heads) in need of a rebuild and have a top quality rebuild done while you enjoy your car. Try to fuss over it less....Its running GREAT, not perfect but very usable.
Pick up the block at summers end after you find a decent place to work and pull the engine and reunite the heads with the new bottom end....and reinstall it with a new clutch.
Exactly what I was thinking. Redoing the top end has increased the compression and pulled out the weakness in the bottom end that hasn’t been rebuilt therefore making it push oil past the rings?
It’s an old car!, to have no smoke/oil use would be surprising. It seems to drive well, no smoke up through the gears after initial startup, and pulls well. Apart from putting a brand new engine in it(which would be ridiculous obviously) why not enjoy it as it is! ........and stop wasting money on it.
Spot on!
Yes... chasing perfection on such an old car might end up driving you completely nuts. Totally put me off buying anything old.... my Dad loves his 356 because it keeps him busy but I would rather be taking a road trip in a new MX5 or similar and not worrying about it exploding. Not good for RUclips content if all is well though I suppose
@UCAxLMbtMYXA7p10FDedg02g it hasn’t had a complete rebuild only top end, he suspects rings now.
He’s obviously not bought this car to get from A to B. It’s practically his life, well, hobby......but his drive for perfection is part of his character.......you either understand it or you don’t. But for us nutters it’s pretty clear what he’s doing.....
Drive and enjoy for the summer, then dig into it in the winter…
Throw it away imo
Last oil change did you use full synthetic? Maybe this engine will burn oil if you did?
Excellent i agree
I think you have a valve guides leak. One of the tell tales apart from the fouled plugs is the stained driver's side rear tail lamp which I noticed when you backed out of the garage.
That is a common indicator of oil leaking into the combustion chambers on cars such as the 240Z.
It's gonna need a strip down and careful examination of the top end to diagnose it.
I fricking love this car, keep on enjoying the journey, it's all good content.
Jack, people are saying oh yes it's definitely smoking on the way back from having the CV Boot done. I have to say NO IT ISN'T. What that is, is smoke from a rich air fuel mixture when you floor it. You have to remember this is carburettors, old technology. We're not dealing with Ecu monitored EFI here. Even high bhp tuned Ecu EFI cars will puff a bit of dirty smoke out when you floor the. It looks fine to me and as for the startup. Nothing excessive their either. Your guy who reconditioned the heads would have covered his bases afa valve stems & seal. Enough said. Just ensure you use old technology oil and change spark plugs regularly. Drive it, give it a good drive, bit of a blast and just enjoy it. If you want to do anything next, take it to your mate with the rolling road dyno.
seeing plenty smoke under load, when you are moving away from it at speed its not going to be thick
It is clearly burning oil now. If it was not burning oil before the heads were worked on then there is a good chance that an error was made rebuilding the heads. Perhaps the valve stem seals are faulty or the valve guides. It seems very unlikely that the oil control rings (on the pistons) would have failed when that part of the engine was not touched.
Still, a fascinating diagnostic challenge, what a beautiful car!
Is the engine breather clear or any trapped breather pipes, have you thought about trying a different heat range spark plug.
definite smoke at 8,12 and it seems to occur after you allow the engine to decellerate after an acceleration and then boot it. This usually suggests drawing it in through the valve stems, which is odd with the rebuild, but could you have a worn valve or two?
running it for as long as you did with a misfire may have glazed the bores?
Someone else has probably already said this, but in some cars valve stem seal replacement can be relatively easy. The trick is a bolt with the same treads as the sparkplug, drilled up the center. On the cylinder you are working on , you rotate the crank until both valves of that cylinder are closed. There are valve spring compressors that work from the top of the head. If you can that to work, you pull the plug, put in your drilled bolt and attach to a compressor hose. The air from the compressor will hold the valves in place while you change the stem seals.
Just needs an Italian tune up to bed thing in.
Does the 308 have an air/oil separator you can check?
Exactly...run the hell out of it.
yes it does
@@malp6280 Possible source of oily smoke on a cold start if it's faulty.
@@stevecade857 the question you've not answered is "what's faulty!"
for the oily spark plugs: had similar issues with a V6 engine. at the end, fixed it with new oil rings. I had a perfect compression, sorted out PCV and valve seals, still occasionally blue smoke, oil rings fixed it for good.
It does look like it's blowing blue smoke under hard acceleration @8:13
Yep, there was some smoke on the first pull too
I think there was some when Jack said he'd try again in second. I think there was a blue poof of smoke
That's what I saw.Poor jack.
When you were originally removing the heads and asking if you should do a full rebuild instead, I explained in a detailed comment why a cranking compression test is not a good indication of bottom end health at higher revs on a running engine. I said a full rebuild was the best option to avoid top end performance issues.
If you rebuild the heads on an an otherwise tired engine and the valves are now sealing as good as (or better than) new, the piston rings are now working much harder than if you had left the heads alone. Combustion and compression leakage has to go somewhere, and in this case it will pressurise the crankcase. Once you pressurised the crankcase more than it was before the vapourised oil has to go somewhere - it will be forced past old oil control rings into the cylinders on their induction stroke as well as via the crankcase ventilation system into the inlet manifold. It wasn't doing it before because the tired piston rings were matched with tired valves and valve seats. Now you effectively have a new top end making life far more difficult for the tired bottom end.
You can see the blue smoke coming from the exhaust now that the crankcase is being pressurised. This is why I originally suggested doing a full rebuild while you had the chance. You could try venting the crankcase pressure directly to atmosphere (not legal in most countries) and it might help a little, but the only way to really fix the problem is to rebuild the bottom end to match the newly rebuilt heads.
Evening Jack... I had recommended doing the entire engine ... Alas , this is why... I believe you sealed the top end and stressed the lower end... Live and learn my friend , now i highly recommend the full rebuild (again) ... btw , if you suspect the heads , you need a new machine shop... Also she is designed to run sodium valves for cooling , never should've changed them , you added another variable ...
Maybe an engine flush with for example some products from Forté could help to reduce the smoke and clean up te oil rings? It is not expensive and (maybe) you don’t have to pull the engine apart.
I think I’d take it out for a nice long drive of around 200+ miles. Get it good and hot and see what, if anything, is revealed that sticks in any sort of conclusive way. Besides, it’ll be fun!
I think...it's a geriatric old banger that's had a life 😉. If the oil fumes are sucked into that bank, there you go.
Hello Jack, think you should make sure the breather system isn't an issue (not saying it is, but best to tick it off).
Think there is what looks like a "swirl pot" (oil vapour box in Ferrari speak) between the oil tank and engine air intake.
Its job is to remove oil from piston blow-by gasses so they can be fed into the engine (to avoid polluting the world with blow-by gasses).
There is a drain from this "swirl pot" into the sump so the separated oil can drain away - please make sure this drain isn't full of mayonnaise (from your previous problem).
If the drain is blocked, the "swirl pot" will be become full of oil and this will get sucked into the engine air intake (and oil those plugs).
A quick and dirty test would be to take the hose out of the air intake and put it into a "catch tank" and block up the hole in the clean side of your air intake.
Be careful with this catch tank to make sure there is no way oil can get onto hot exhaust surfaces or your tyres if it overflows!
Worked in engine development for the last 35 years - will send another message about comments colleagues in oil companies have made.
I can see the smoke when accelerating after deceleration. And I see smoke at start up. Both signs of worn valve stems.
I think you have solved the last problem by changing the plugs. When Ian tuned it, the plugs were somewhat fouled so he may have tuned it a bit rich to compensate. Pull the plugs again, and see which look tan and which look dark and rich. Put them back in and lean out the rich carbs. Do Ian's hose trick and first listen to the cylinders you know are good, then the ones that are not. Adjust all the rich cylinder's idle jets to match the good one and go from there. I don't think you need to pull it apart again. Nice job. I've been enjoying your videos on this car.
Could there be a blocked breather somewhere in the engine causing a pressure build up and forcing the oil out?
Good guess. Usually you could loosen the oil filler cap a bit , while the car is running , and see if there's burned oil vapour coming out.
Wouldn’t that affect all 8 cylinders?
Jack, I saw a puff of blue smoke in your rear view camera when you first opened the throttle. There was also a puff of blue smoke when the car first started. I’m betting on leaking intake valve seals because if oil puddles in those lifter bores, it will be drawn through a leaking seal when you first start or (if running) when you tromp on the throttle.
It’s burning a lot , when you start it up. As usual with these things, would have been good to do not just heads but a full build. When you refresh heads it puts more load on a worn bottom end .
Personally, I’d go with some softer plugs to stop the fouling and thicker oil.
If the oil drain passageways from the head down to the block are clogged (by sealant maybe) the head will fill with oil. Valve stem seals are designed to be splashed with oil, not operate under oil. When you installed the new head did you check to see if the drain passages were open?
when you go round a corner, an HT lead is coming in contact with ground somewhere. check all the leads are all secure, unable to move under any circumstances
??????
@@rossmoultrie885 Yeah, this had me scratching my head also. But I googled 'HT Lead" and apparently this is how the British refer to spark plug wires. So he is trying to say that a spark plug wire is grounding out on the chassis when the car is going through a corner.
@@Scott_6666 yes, HT is High Tension. it could also be coming into contact with another HT cable and the two are interfering with each other electrically
so all the HT leads must be isolated from ground and each other 100% of the time, including when going around corners
@@Gruxxan Oh!! Wow!!
I had a similar issue with my 86 CJ7 due to a blocked crank case ventilation valve that was causing a build up of pressure. It also blew out the rear main seal.
It sounds great with the clean plugs, keep a clean spare set and a bottle to top up now and then …. Rag it and enjoy it, and stop looking for faults, be half full as opposed to half empty 😀
Smoke on startup which was very obvious when you started after it sat overnight. The amount that came out in that situation, first start would normally indicate that it's time for new valve guides and seals so talk to the people who rebuilt the heads.
We have a long open 7% downhill in town where we do our throttle overrun smoke test, meaning start the downhill under heavy throttle for several seconds, lift off throttle completely and engine brake for several more seconds and then punch the throttle again. If you see a bunch of smoke when you hit the throttle, likely valve seals. Always good to have an observer along or mount your camera looking back cos sometimes hard to see in the mirrors. Also compression and leak down tests are mostly accurate when the engine is at running temps and with compression tests on older carbed cars, wide open throttle with all plugs out allowing the starter to spin the crank evenly and and as fast as possible.
When you first start up after leaving the car over night the oil could be leaking from the valves seals runs clear after first start. Seen this before
Yep, I had that problem on an old 911. Platinum plugs and improved ignition system sorted it.
you can also get this via excess oil found on the intake/leaking into the cylinder runs due to failing/poor oil breather system
This. Plus, before shutdown, it's high vacuum in the intake which will pull oil past them if they're less than optimal.
Forget plug changes, this engine needs new rings.
It doesn't need to be done by a ferrari specialist.
Once the engine is removed its a straight forward job to remove the heads and sump pan. Leave the crank in place and remove the rods and pistons. Clean the pistons well especially the ring lands and fit new rings. Check the bores for any obvious problems, deglaze well to allow the new rings to bed in.
All you need is a new set of rings and a gasket set plus if there's any noticeable wear to the big end bearings, a new set of shells.
We had a similar problem with my brothers car but this cured the oil burning issue.
There was a very small amount of wear to the cylinders, three were at their limit but the engine ran fine.
Although not factoring in labour the parts used were only around £600.
Some may pour scorn on this but if the rest of the engine is in acceptable condition, re use parts you have.
My brothers car has since been fine covering now over 7k Miles with no loss of oil and clean plugs.
Stick with it Jack whatever it takes.... I love the Influenzo and your content on it , plus as I said the other day your personality and smile makes it all so watchable.
Mike
Sorry to hear the saga continues with the influenza.
Watching the wizards 308 video.
He mentioned about the brake servo being transverse across the front bulkhead.
Considering that needs a vacuum from the engine might be an idea to see if that vacuum pipe is in good condition front to back - especially where it connects to the inlet manifold.
Also the wizard has junked the standard dizzies for electronic (distributor-less ) programmable ignition.
Thus eliminating any maintenance or tolerances from the equation.
As others have said.
Check to see if the breather system is working correctly and is clear as this may cause high pressure in the crankcase forcing oil to enter through the rings.
...
Have you considered changing the heat range of the effected cyl bank with a hotter/cooler plug range see if that stops the plug fouling?
....
Another commenters mentioned previously about these carbureted engines were originally designed to run on 100 octane fuel, so maybe with our modern fuels the engine runs at different upper cylinder temperatures. ?
..
If it's a blowing a little oil and everything checks out.
Maybe just drive the car for a while won't do any harm enjoy the car.
I used to own a motorbike and loved ragging it to 12,000 rpm, this Ferrari sounds so sweet - a real screamer become quite fond of it myself lol.
Not really a Ferrari guy but can see the fun in owning one...
I kept hearing Murray Walker in my head “There’s a puff off smoke!”😂😂😂
Lol
usually about 30 seconds after the average punter has spotted it!!!!!
@@SteeeveO Bravo!
I'm a Porsche man, and I know you are too, but I've only ever loved the Magnum Ferrari. Loving your videos, with every car, always great to see when you post a new video so I can kick back and watch it with my G&T. Thank you!
I put my money on valve stem-seals and put slightly thicker oil in the engine like 10-40W oil in....
I've got exactly the same problem on 1 cylinder on my Triumph Stag V8, oil contamination, I did see a lot of smoke when you started it up in the garage, you've had the heads done, you may face the inevitable. Good luck.
Bogs down if the float level is too high.
I also think it is a fueling issue.
@@MLC... did jack ever test the fuel pressure? I can't remember at this stage...
Get rid of the fine electrode platinum or iridium plugs.
These are made for modern low pressure fuel injection engines, such as the Bosch Motronic.
Any fluid on these makes them misfire.
For instance, on copper electrode plugs, if they become flooded, you can take them out, dry them out and they’re as good as new. The fine electrode plugs cannot function anymore once flooded, even if you dry them out.
Other than this, you should have serviced the carburetors before getting Tyrell to tune the carbs.
The carbs have a progression jet. If that is partially clogged, it will do fine in idle and at full throttle, but misfire mid throttle.
The normal process for carb cArs is:
Remove carbs,
Make sure the seating bottom of the carb is planed
Take carbs apart and replace all removable jets
Using a syringe inject acetone, lacquer thinner or such through every bore of the carburetor
Take apart the acceleration pump and check the membrane
Then put everything back together and do some old school functional carb cleaning:
-run the car in idle
-accelerate under the hood with one hand and choke one carb throat with the other palm until the engine makes a muted whine sound, then release the throat suddenly.
This makes the carb swallow and clots of gunk that may have been dislodged by the cleaning and float somewhere in a bore where you can’t see them.
Carbs were disassembled and serviced a few months ago!
4:15 .... nothing like revving the bollocks off the engine when cold first thing in the morning to reveal any engine weaknesses .....
AND revving the b of the engine when it is cold is going to give you some new problems . I think it just needs a long run and another tune up. To be honest I would drive it like that and see how it settled down. Patience is a virtue. Stripping a Ferrari engine in a hurry is just expensive .
Yes,and a sure way to wear an engine out!
check the crankcase ventilation - on a lot of older cars they vent back into the carb to burn off the oil vapor. Sometimes if you look in the carb you can see oily deposit going into the inlet. Does it vent into the rear bank?
Clearly could see smoke on acceleration after shifts. A clear sign off leaking stem seals
I thought I could see that as well. Given there is smoke on startup (i.e. oil getting in overnight) I also think the stem seals are the culprit as oil flowing uphill overnight (past the rings) would be strange unless there was massive pressure build up in the crankcase (which does not seem to be the case).
If it smokes blue on start up, after sitting overnight, I suspect a leak from above. Oil doesn't run up hill. You said it wasn't doing it before all the work, so unfortunately I'd suspect a valve seal? Also, I'd do a compression check, just to get a baseline for any future problems. I improved my 308's leaning out on sharp turns by adjusting the floats for a slightly higher fuel level in the bowls. It helped, but it still tends to starve on really sharp turns. Also, slightly hotter plugs to burn the oil off better. I wouldn't tear it apart for that small amount of oil leak. I switched back to real oil also. The synthetic seemed to find leaks. Cheers.
The problem is obvious.
You haven't been wearing the lucky PJ's!
If you put synthetic oil in it, maybe consider swapping back to mineral. Synthetic seems to love finding leaks and burning.
Also, what's the crankcase ventilation system on those? Oil being fed predominantly into one bank intermittently could be a result of the location of a crankcase vent line in the intake?
Was also wondering about positive crank case ventilation. Often they vent into the air intake. Don’t know in this case but it’s probably an easier fix than tearing down the bottom end.
@@dbx3197 however unlikely, always check the simple/free things first!
Check your PCV system for function, it can often pass oil into the intake.
Webers have a ball bearing check valve for the accelerator pump, if it sticks or gets gummed up your mixture will not get enriched with quick throttle movement as the accelerator pump will simply push the fuel back through the open check valve (ball bearing) into the float chamber rather than into the throat of the venturi. You can easily see the squirt looking down inside and stabbing the throttle from idle, just check that every throat is doing the same. Other hesitation causes can be from incorrect float level, blocked idle circuits (pilot bleed) that get adjusted over but then cause transitional lean out, and accelerator pump diaphragm leakage, linkages, and emulsion tubes. Blockages there cause rich mixture as the air mixed in the main jet passage leaves the fuel exiting in a heavier state at the atomisation point. The worst culprit is often ethanol based fuel, it deposits insoluble jelly into the carburettors circuits through condensed evaporation.
I'd never put ethanol fuel into a carburettor fed engine.
Good luck with it.
The only smoke I saw was at start up, none when you were driving!
This would seem to suggest valve stem seals, so the oil left in the areas under the cam shafts are slowly dripping down the valves into the combustion chamber overnight when the engine is cool, then burning off when you start it up.
Obviously as it warms up the gap on the seals tightens up stopping the leak, rinse and repeat etc etc
If you are not needing to add oil, I.e. it's not consuming oil from the sump, then you are not burning oil. First thing to establish is if you are in fact using oil. If not then dont chase things like rings, stem seals or PCV valve.
Looking at your video, I'd be inclined to check your carbs, float levels or anything else leaking fuel or putting too much fuel into the inlet manifold. If you dump in fuel it will wash oil off the bones and give you a puff of blue smoke as you are seeing. The hesitation on cornering and bad AFR suggest float level as the cause of too rich a mixture. Hope this is useful
Is there a possibility of something creating positive crank case pressure? Is the crank case vent functioning correctly?
This was what I was thinking. Well it’s a completely different engine from a modern era, my E 39 BMW has an M 62 Tu V8 and I had crank case ventilation issues which gummed up my intake.
Interesting idea. Worth following up on me thinks, not knowing the first thing about the 308 engine.
That is a smokey start up, valve stem seals, reminded me of a Cortina morning start up, always valve stems. The cloud out the back, rings! I really hope you keep it and show us you fixing it.... Brilliant channel..... keep um coming!!!
I would hope you'd NEVER sell the Influenzo. It's a fantastic car.
no one would buy this wreck ...
@@gulfstream-tvstudios9546 😂 Once everything is ironed out, it will be brilliant. I'd rather buy this one once it's issues are sorted than to buy another from an advert where it could be as bad, if not worse than the Influenzo. Better the devil you know 😈
Crankcase ventilation circuit? For valve stem seals, it occurs after long idling (max vacuum pulling the oil down).
I'm going to start a similar channel on the problems I am having with my 2010 Hyundai Getz. At the moment, I'm waiting for something to go wrong. Stay tuned!
Smoke on startup is from the valve guides, if it was from the piston rings it would be doing it all the time. The reason I say it's from the valve guides is that oil is moved by gravity, so it always moves down. I am an ex engine rebuilder (retired) and the main reason we used to see this is when the valve guides haven't been cut right.If it's the valve guides you'll obviously need to get them done again. Good luck with it, I moved on to electric cars and haven't looked back! lol
I'm waiting for you to replicate the Basil Fawlty scene from Fawlty Towers, when you give the Influenzo a 'good thrashing' with a branch of a tree ... (complete with Duck a L'Orange on a Silver serving Dish) ... 🤣
Hope you don't have to seat a new set of valves. Thankyou for the video. Admire your patience and persistence.👍👍👍👍
Thanks for the update. Hope you were able to see the similar work Car Wizard is doing on his 308.
The Car Wizard .. the guy is a massive bluffer. I have never seen anything from that guy in the way of troubleshooting .. just constantly loading up the parts cannon ..
confused..... smoke on start up is normaly stem seals ? but you had them done ? smoke on pulling off, at junction, drop down a gear, ring seal, but if you getting good pressure test on cylinders ? the oil should still not be geetting past, wiper/oil rings seal are helpers.... check oil on dip stick, run for a week, check again..... if it dont show much loss.... dont worry.... wait till winter, nd pull engine in one
Yay full rebuild! Love a good tear down.
It's an electrical problem... oil leaks through the valve guides don't cause misfires... It looks like an electrical problem since it starts happening when the engine heats up.. check relays etc.. maybe the distributor again... alternator... you've checked the coils, but that's not enough... you need a good auto electrician to solve the problem..
If Iain T did the strip down and rebuild wouls you have to sell your house? Failing that, nice if him to give you some pointers
Probably looking at the thick end of £30k if Ian went to town on it. That's why it was a cheap 308.
I had the same oil/plug issue you are having on my 355 and it turned out that I had two cylinders that had bad oil rings. Do a leakdown test and check each cylinder, also find someone that has a borescope and have a look inside each cylinder and see if the walls have any abnormal wear marks. I had to do this and was devastated at the results.
I see the title, i think when does this guy streak of bad luck ends. Man i would have give up months ago
as others have said, check crankcase blow by......Review the oil viscosity....and if all else fails, drain of some oil...run oil level just below Mid...go for a drive....
Are your breathers free/unrestricted.?
Do you have a borescope.........? are the bores free from scrapes/scratches....
Also, rings take time to bed in........I had to put nearly a 1000 miles on my newly built engine before the start up smoke finally went.....You have a lot of start up blue smoke and a slight haze under hard acceleration.....Give it time to bed in.
I woud not worry to much about it smoking only does it a little bit just see how things go jack
To check if the piston rings are not sealing properly find a 2 mile downhill road, when the oil is nice and hot, when going downhill let the engine brake the car (2nd or 3rd gear), do not accelerate and then after half a mile or so accelerate hard. If blue smoke comes out then oils is coming up from the pistons.
To reduce the amount of oil coming into the pistons you could also try a slightly thicker engine oil.
Do an oil and filter change and ad 20% Lucas Oil Stabiliser and fettle the carbs, job done, Good Luck
What does the Oil Stabiliser do?
There was a fair old cloud of blue smoke at startup at 4:12 which could be a symptom of oil pooled on the valves from sketchy valve seals. Definitely smoking when you put your foot down in 2nd gear at 8:12 as well.
There's definitely a puff of smoke when you give it the beans.....
Too me the start up looks like valve seals are leaking just . The gas tank baffle may of broke loose both things has happen to my corvette. when you start it up do you push the gas peddle ?
The previous owner is probably so happy now he's gotten rid of this thing!
I'd have torched this back in the day. When mine was a bit 'fluffy' , Angelo the mechanic asked me; 'you are a shaggee?'
It took us some time to get to what he meant. It was, 'do you shag it?'
I'd been pootling around Newcastle City centre for a few weeks and had never red lined it. A change of plugs, a change of oil to his recommended brand and a blast up the airport road and it was as right as rain. It was the 208 which I think I've mentioned before, but it's basically the same engine. Good luck to you
Drive it as it is, just rename it 'The Pigs Ear' 😸
Oil: Does it have any accessories operated by manifold vacuum? (power brakes, etc.) Anything that uses manifold vacuum may be leaking oil or other fluid into the manifold (especially the bank with the worst plugs). Bogging in turns: Carb float valves may be binding when subjected to lateral forces, thus choking off fuel, or flooding the carb(s).
Yes but the vacuum take up is only from one cylinder so would not explain all the others fouling..
Hi bud,in the 1980s my car burned a gallon of oil in a week,it didn't matter because I worked in a garage so it was free. Try liquid Molly engine flush,it will clean the oil ring. Then put in some shell 15w40 and get out and drive it hard
Hi it looks like you get slight smoke getting back on the power after coming off the the over run which leans towards valve stem seals, if it was oil control rings you would get it when booting it, I had a car that drove great at normal speeds but as soon as you give it a bit it smoked (Bad) as the oil control rings were shot. I am older in years and worked in the trade for many years and have seen this a lot. hope it helps, I know you say the heads have been done but it looks like it is coming from the top end somewhere ? might be getting in through a hose, breather? not sure of the set up on that engine.
With carbs it's essential that the floatlevels are set correct.
It's also a good idea to check the floats themselves to see if they leak. A leaking float will be filled with fuel that result in loss of floatation which means the float needle will remain open for too long. Which leads to a too rich of a mixture.
Because a leaking float does no longer float it can't regulate the fuel level in the carb. Other things worth checking are the float needles. If those are worn you can adjust the floats all you want but the carbs will still have too high of a fuel level inside resulting in running rich.
Personally i would pull off all carbs and check/rebuild them all, then putting them back on and do the tuning and synchronising again.
I've seen Ian do the Italian tune up. Tbh , as i did lots of 4cil-4carb motorbikes i prefer a set of vacume gauges to do a tuneup- and sychronisation job on a multi-carb engine.
All that said, if you are fed up with temperamental and finnicky carbs, maybe consider installing ITB's with aftermarket EFI? Get that tunend on a dyno and you'll have better drivebillity, more power, better fuel economy and more reliability.
That would be my choice.
With regard to smoke:
white: coolant in combustion chamber > HG
Grey: slightly rich mixture, normal when accelerating hard.
Black: too much fuel, too rich
Blue: oil burning, when it happens on the overrun(closed throttle) and then when reapplying the throttle it produces a sizeable blue cloud of smoke it's probably a valveguide/valveguide seal issue. Because the high vaccume on the overrun draws the oil passt the valve stems into the combustion chambers where it subsequently gets burnt.
If the blue smoke is continuous i'd say it's probably blowby (worn rings)
or a clogged positive crankcase ventilation system. Should be visible on spark plug(s)
Blowby can easily be checked by removing the oilfiller cap with the engine running. If there is a constant stream of oil vapor pulses being pushed out then the engine has problematic blowby. On a healthy engine the oil cap should actually be drawn on the valve cover by a little engine vacume.
Don't strip down yet. Try a triple electrode spark plug. This solved a similar problem on a 308 for me about 20 years ago. I used Bosch plugs then but I believe that they have discontinued those plugs since. Try NGK or another make. If your leak down is OK then I would be very slow to open it up again.
Good luck , Mel Nolan.
Don’t be disheartened mate, it’s needs a leaner tune from what I can tell and your description.
I’d be looking for 12 at wot, not at idle.
Try a leaner tune, you may even find that the excess fuel is helping the oil past the rings, it’s where I’d start.
Also a way too rich mix can cause engine wear as it washes oil off the cylinder walls
It shows blue smoke on power clearly in the rear view video shot, what were the leak down test results , no mention of that. If the crankcase leak down is good it's not the oil burning causing the misfire. There's something else going on. Definitely fit some new plugs first, that's a must !
Burning oil on start up is valve stem seals. Overnight the oil runs down onto the back of the valves and into the cylinders once you start it up that trace of oil burns off and then you don't see it anymore. If your clever you can replace the seals without removing the heads, have the Piston on TDC on compression and slightly pressurise the cylinder with compressed air, you may have to modify or make a simple valve spring compressing tool to remove the collets, once they are out, remove the spring and inspect the seals see how much movement is in the guide, replace the seals fit the springs, compress them and then refit the collets. No head removal needed
Looks like carbon fouling due to overrich fuel mixture. 7% co2 is excessive, would imagine 2.5 +/- .5 for carbs. The plug temp will lower then plugs will look black and wet if the plug can't spark properly. Do the plug electrodes smell of petrol? Some blue smoke at start up would be normal for an engine design of the 70's I wouldn't think it'll be valve stem seals if the heads have been rebuilt. Good luck 🤞
There was probably some residual oil from the rebuild, Try plugs a few times, clean 1set run another, may bed in and clear from Italian tune-up..?? Be surprised if valves are letting after top rebuild!! But as we never got bottom end open the oil rings may be at fault.? But it sounds good now when you open it up.. Oh yes petrol tank baffle maybe on the starving issue.
Top job on Your channel.. people love the mistery n journey..so it will keep us hooked??
Paul.
All the blue smoke at 4.15 indicates that the oil has been dripping from above over night and collecting in the cylinders. I think its valve stem seals personally 👍 Also no smoke on full throttle and good compression indicates oil control rings are OK.. also check breather pipes aren't cycling oil into the inlet
If it is oil scraper rings I’ve had success freeing them up using Seafoam. Older MX5’s are renowned for them sticking if you don’t use the car much. I got oil consumption down from “ridiculous” 0.5 litre in 75 miles to “acceptable” 0.5 litres per 1000 miles. Soaked the pistons through spark plug holes topping up when it drains through, then replace oil after 48 hours of soaking. No idea if Ferrari engines suffer the same problem but might be worth a look.
Smoke on start up? Valves? If it has recently started plug fouling/ burning oil, what has changed? Valves, vents? That smoke at 8mins - minimal?
have you checked the engine/crankcase breather for blockage .
Re the mis-fire, what spark plugs and fuel are you using and do you use an octane booster with it? If you aren’t already, try using a set of hotter plugs with high octane unleaded plus an octane booster. I’ve experienced similar oiling/sooting up problems with Lotus twin cam engines and it makes a massive difference.
Stay strong sir! A master class in car knowledge, resourcefulness and resilience. I think a lot of people here would chip in for a crowd funding to get you an extra pair of hands and eyes!
OK, before I start, this was on a Rover V8 (in a TVR) which is very different, BUT, the issues were very, very similar to yours so it might be worth looking at. Symptoms were oiled plugs, misfiring. Like you, I thought oil come from two places, rings or valves, but there is a third source, oil breathers. On the rover, the rocker covers act as pressure balancing chambers - a breather on the top of one rocker cover provides inlet air to balance the suction of fumes into the inlet manifold. The inlet breather was blocked, which caused too much suction and too much oil being burned, especially at high depression = with choke on or on over run. I don't know the details of the Ferrari engine, but I would check the breathing system first carefully.