Since the RPG mechanics are canon to the Undertale world it would be funny seeing a Undertale character fighting someone from another verse just for the other fighter to be like "why tf cant I attack" and have them reply "its not your turn yet"
yeah, imagine Dio using Za Warudo, punching Sans(hard, because he doesn't know he has one hp but normal human would survive after that) only to see last breath no effect text and hear sans says "erere- i mean, "bro it's not your turn yet" and die immediately on his first attack because he doesn't know the rules but so does sans and he can't reset
Undertale canonically uses in-game turn-based fighting. I can just imagine, since ASGORE can’t die, he could theoretically just stall out until the enemy dies of old age
Asgore is killed by frisk at the end of the no mercy run he's also killed by flowey in the neutral run if you do fight back against him in his boss fight He can die I think he just doesn't age
@@dust8286 At the end of Geno, Frisk kills ASGORE outside of a fight. The battle doesn't even start and no buttons are pressed. He's killed by Flowey, but that's because Flowey catches him by suprise after he's weakened. I'm saying that, with turns having no time limit, he could just stand there forever.
@@djmewtwo6981 There are still monsters you could have logically killed in genocide, the ones hiding in true lab, its not that the max is 20 because thats the max you can kill, you literally CANT go past 20
There are a couple of weird misconceptions here, and I feel obligated to clear them up. 1.) Lv 20 IS the max, and no, it's not because of there not being any Monsters left. As revealed by the Alphys ending, there are still monsters hiding in Alphys' lab, so Lv IS limited to 20 canonically. 2.) Yes, KR would still work even if the person is good. The misonception that KR works as Karmic Retribution came from the fandom. KR in it's entirety is some weird status effect more likened to Poison than anything (KARMA coursing through your veins). 3.) Humans are still said to be naturally Determined, and are proven to be via The Six Human Souls, as well as The Omega Flowey fight. Frisk also still has their "refuse" ability after the Asriel fight, so this is just a canonical upgrade. 4.) Someone already said this, but the 99999 refers to EXP, not the people you've killed. 5.) This honestly happens whenever someone discusses Undertale, but just to be clear, Frisk is NOT just regular Human child. People seem to forget that Humans are just plain CRACKED in the Undertale universe, and that the Monsters are literally weak to the harming intent of a Human. With all that in mind, it's not THAT surprising that even a Child with murderous intent could take most of them down. Something else to be remembered is that Monsters, or at the very least Sans, directly attack the SOUL. So, using Sans as an example here; Sans would still be pretty powerful outside of his verse. Teleportation, Durability Negation, KR, Timestop, plus the amount of speed needed to consistently dodge someone who knew where you would be before you even took the action in the first place.
@@Magma-Idiot-2001 I'm aware, I was just talking about the mechanics of the fight itself, where Sans teleports you, ignores your durability, and of course, uses KR on you. Him stopping time is of course something I should have listed, though, since he does it in battle, so let me just add that real quick.
The reason Sans is matched against Gojo is because of their many similarities: Strongest Sorcerer and "Weakest" Monster; Special Eyes no one else has that are blue; Very unserious overall and joke around,, but still gets serious when necessary; Space Maniplation and Teleportation; Not being able to kill someone because of their friendship, just to see them again, or their former shell inhabited by another being (Chara deals the final blow, you don't do that second hit); Their death essentially meaning the world is doomed (yea sukuna has way too much plot armor)
Honestly, I think Sans would lose hard, anybody with a domain can just beat Sans, because of the sure hit effect, (Whether you believe Sans can teleport out of it, But in this case, a 0.2 second domain expansion from Gojo's domain would be impossible for Sans to get out of, Meaning he can hold still enough for Gojo to kill him
@@Omega_Sans12345Chara is referencing going to a different game to start a new game (in the same vein to Flowey's parallel to a player 100%-ing a game).
@@Omega_Sans12345Chara never killed nor wanted to kill in other worlds. All they said was that this one had no more to offer, so destroyed it And by players request remade it
Power scaling efforts are best spent on the fan comics. They more or less keep the characters at relatively similar levels most of the time. Unless it's an AU. Granted you won't be scaling the actual characters and just the general level of strength the fandom thinks they're likely at but that'll be as close as you can get.
the other day i saw a thing that was supposted to be like a fanmade sans's theme in ULTRAKILL, and the comments were talking only about who would win lmao
Sans would be an ULTRAEASY fight, but also leave V1 ULTRAFRUSTRATED at how he can't get ULTRAPRANK due to not getting enough ULTRASTYLE, due to Sans being ULTRAFRAGILE and ULTRADYING instantly to ULTRAHITSCAN ULTRAAIMBOT. Therefore not giving the ULTRAPLAYER any room to get ULTRASTYLE. But this is all just a theory, an ULTRAGAME theory.
Not counting god tiers like True Pacifist Frisk V1 would have a good chance since he doesn't even have a soul iirc But if we count god tiers he's getting onetapped before he's even created
in my opinion, it would be a toss-up, It depends on who you think could go longer, if V-1 could dode Sans's attacks enough to hit enough shots to make him dodge and tire himself out, or if Sans can deal enough damage to kill V-1 since he cannot heal off of Sans because he just dodges it, Personally, I think sans would be a pain in the ass for V-1 to fight, Sans would probably just do things like, Throwing around V-1's coins and shooting the coins with gaster blasters before V-1 can, he would likely be hard to beat, So I think sans High Diffs the fight, but I can see why someone would say V-1 would win
That's why I felt like Underverse didn't really have Sans, just very powerful characters. Sans is strong because he messes with the game's files. Just "being powerful" kinda ruins why he's good. Sans isn't inherently strong, he's just a cheater who resorts to underhanded tactics, and he does this because he HAS to.
@@mechamedegeorge6786 Yes, because he cheats: He changes the game mechanic to something convenient so that he could deal more than 1 damage, he attacks you even when it's your turn, or even just dodges your attacks. Sans's greatest feature isn't raw power, his feature is HAX. By hax, I both mean the fact he tampers with the game's mechanics and the fact his capabilities are basically MEANT to bypass the strengths of his opponents and turn the tides in his favor.
I heavily disagree. Especially since other AUs in Underverse are made by other creators & the only really powerful characters in Underverse that exist are Nightmare, Error Sans (whose Underverse version is weaker than canon Error btw), & X-Gaster (who is suppose to represent a AU creator, so it makes sense why he’s strong)
And the fact that monsters are literally weak to violent intentions, means that weak thug henchmen in many shows can kill the entire underground with no problem.
Generally speaking, scaling the REAL UNDERTALE is borderline impossible by default, especially without the characters' abilities being re-adapted to traditional fighting. BUt it really doesn't end there: a majority of well known AUs such as UNDERFELL aren't often made with power scaling in mind, and a good chunk of them (I.E. Aftertale, Dusttale, Ask Error, The thought, and Horrortale) are mostly confined to the same rules. Ink, Fresh, and even Error aren't as high and mighty as 2016 fandom made them out to be, the only 4 AUs that can properly be scaled being those that completely deviate in style and ideas (Xtale, Epictale, Reapertale, and IRONICALLY Horrortale, the last two in which don't even have many feats to abuse), and the only viable AUs that can match some of the more outlandish cosmologies (basically fictional universe/multiverse/space itself) are the very cheap and poorly written ones like ALPHATALE (which is a very notorious AU that hides its real issues behind the stigma of it just being an "OVERPOWERED sans AU"), so it just feels like a disservice to the UTMV. If anything, UTMV matchups should be matchups between the UTMV and similar verses, such as that of OFF or Yume Nikki, since anyone who isn't LV20 Frisk/Chara (which is just them being completely locked in) or Xtale Mettaton (as a fine example) would either be cheating behind what are basically UNDERTALE's version of "Spell card rules", or would be getting served by someone who is built for more traditional combat, such as Faust from Guilty Gear or Dirk Strider from Homestuck (a series that Toby himself made music for).
@@NoymoHDwell, id say that the battle will be long as hell, but maybe it will end with who can counter (if we use the M&L dodge system) the most attacks and what team haves the hp and enough items to survive the almost endless amount of counters
Here's a detail I noticed: Asgore has killed at least 2 humans by himself if we consider Undyne's line "No human has ever made it past ASGORE!" So I think it's safe to say that humans don't give EXP like monsters, since Asgore could have leveled up if that was the case, but Asgore's stats are 80 ATK 80 DEF, that match up with Toriel's stats, and even if Asgore's stats could have been increased by the humans' EXP, I think it'd be kinda weird... Then again, maybe the humans DID give EXP, but it wasn't enough to level up Asgore, and now that I think about it maybe some people's EXP needed to level up would be different from person to person... we just don't know... What I can say is that if we do take characters like Frieza and send them to Undertale, I don't think they'd level up since they did the killing in a world where EXP and LV don't exist. I guess.
Maybe you need to destroy the soul to get exp? That will explain why we don't get exp after killing Asgore, because Flowey is the one who destroy his soul.
@@sheogorath6834 simple, papyrus uses bones not made from his magic but in his weird box thing, I really don’t see why sans would be any different, plus sans is the only character (that I remember at least) that got as tired as he did.
This is such an interesting take on the subject that I've never thought of before! Especially the Sans portion, really opened my eyes to what exactly he was doing in that fight to give him the strength he had. After watching all of it, I honestly share the same opinion as you now, though it is cool seeing VS videos of these characters nonetheless.
I think what most people don't understand is that reset probably only works in their universe and their game mechanics. Even if there were people fighting them in their universe, they'd still destroy because game mechanics is JUST game mechanics. (despite the whole reset thing and whatnot. but that'd probably not apply to the battle since we're talking about the battle itself.)
Pretty much this is what happens... as long as both opponents play by "spellcard rules". The moment oponnent breaks them if they're unable to finish battle fast, shit starts happening. -Accroding to fandom. Trying to figure out power levels in canon is dangerous to your sanity cuz Zun sucks at powerscalling
Well, this helps a lot, considering im writing a story, using sans in another universe. Maybe I'll make his character something of an enigma, with like his own set of rules, or maybe just bend and break the rules of the universe he's in. Thanks pal.
I think the main problem with powerscaling Undertale AUs specifically is just the fact that there’s so many variables & things to take into account. (This comment will be very long btw) For example, i’ll explain Ink Sans & Killer Sans as an example: Canon Ink Sans (he was originally created by Comyet. They have a bunch of asks & a official blog for Ink) is canonically mostly featless & cannot create any living beings or AUs. The only thing they have canonically done is add a sky into the doodlesphere & the islands (based on the comic). Although Comyet doesn’t like people portraying Ink as being extremely defenseless either. But in the fangame (a fanon version), he has 3 phases & has created (& can summon) every AU. In Underverse, Ink is actually a little close to canon in terms of personality (him being chaotic neutral), but he hasn’t really been animated using his creation / Ink manipulation abilities to his full potential. There’s also hundreds of other fanon versions which portray Ink as a god of creation. In Canon, Killer has defeated the star sanses (who were portrayed horribly) & there was a canon side comic of Killer explaining that in his canon verse every character is stronger or weaker depending on the AU they entered in. So if any character (Nightmare, Killer, even Error404), etc were to enter an AU where that creator views them as strong or weak or powerless, they will become that way in that AU. So if Ink & Error were to fight in an AU where that AU creator viewed them as gods, then their fights will be more destructive compared to an AU in which the creator sees them similar to their canon versions. In Fanon, Killer is portrayed as being weaker than canon though. That’s not even mentioning the portrayals of how powerful human souls & determination are in every AU. How different stats work for monsters & humans, different interpretation of Determination / resets / LV / what the red soul is, how a characters code is portrayed, how there’s different interpretations of Incodes & Outcodes, Misinformation in wiki’s, Alphatale existing, a creator’s statements compared to actual feats shown, different Undertale AU Multiverses, different portrayals of the Anti-Void / Doodlesphere / Omega Timeline possibly affecting a character’s powerscale, etc. Even just scaling the Underverse versions has its own issues. In Undertale, the combat system, soul modes, how stats & damage within monsters & humans can change, the fact that stats when checking them is different from stats in the files, and how human souls are (usually) stronger than monster souls are all things to remember as well.
@@Xenodrad5301 I can honestly comment a whole essay on how much I don’t like that specific Canon Killer comic because of how bad rhawbas (however you spell the creator’s name lol) portrayed the star sanses but (I think) the creator admitted themselves that Killer was pretty much a cringy oc they made
@purpledshadow This is ironically why i hate the powerscaling in the community, half of it is "god vs. god" bullcrap that if you have a remotely balanced character, you'd be clowned on by the entire AU community cause they're not a fucking god.
I hate the fact people bring up different stats in the files. It's a game, they're different so the game can work. Would you really like Asgore to deal 80 damage to you? Or Undying 99? No, files just don't count unless they are meant to specifically be found like Entry Number 17.
@@The_Christian_Kirbo SAME. I personally also hate the 999999 attack damage stuff though. I’ve seen so many people use that to scale Frisk to stupidly high levels but I don’t think we / Frisk are actually doing 99999999… damage, it’s just suppose to represent us attacking a monster in one hit.
Not to mention, most things can't be analyzed for feats because w aren't shown them. Sure, Undyne can suplex a boulder, but we don't see it, meaning we can't measure the size and weight, meaning that it doesn't count.
And Undyne & Asgore can dodge (stated via dialouge), but they just don’t in the fight. We also have no clue as to how strong Toriel & Asgore really are if they were to fight seriously. We have also never seen Asriel GOH form use it’s complete full power & there’s inconsistencies with Asriel’s purged timeline feat like how the barrier wasn’t broken as a result & the surface was still intact.
I've done a few Undertale and Deltarune power scaling edits, and it doesn't matter who wins because there's always going to be someone on both extremities saying one side loses, or the other solos 😭
Powerscaling in UT AU is just “my OC is stronger than you because everyone likes it”, it make me feel kinda dumb when compared au with au because after all they all just fan creation.
Great vid! I do have a couple comments to add; LV 20 would be the max level you could earn bc it's from killing specifically monsters made from magic and after killing every monster the player can only earn LV 20, also someone else in the comments said thay it's said in game as well. (Ok I forgot about shop keepers, monsters hiding in Alphy's lab, and the Amalgamations, but they can't be killed in-game, and again it's stated that LV 20 is the limit). Good job on stating that there's a difference between in-game stats and in-verse stats, a ton of people who scale the characters (such as Asriel Dreemurr) forget that in-verse stats should be used and not the actual damage taken in-game. In my opinion Omega Flowey only gets betrayed by the souls because it's Frisk, no other reason, in my opinion ofc. And thank you for not being toxic 🙏 I swear anytime someone tries to power scale Goku or smth with Undertale they are ALWAYS toxic. I agree that it's basically irrelevant to power scale a game that is heavily based on mechanics and yk, is a game. Anyways cool vid!! I originally found your channel through the La Jupo video but somehow lost it, but I made sure to sub this time, yea, hope others like the video as well!!!
(Second comment since I don't feel like editing the other) I also think undertale has way to many plot holes (especially in soul biology) to really scale them without using fanon stuff
I wouldn't say plot holes with soul biology (it's simplistic in Undertale, their about as fleshed out as any game). The only plothole I can think of is Frisk's fate in the Neutral Ending (especially if they DID somehow cross the barrier, something that only a human + monster soul could do).
@@Magma-Idiot-2001Human SOULs are powerful because of DETERMINATION. The average human SOUL doesn't have enough power to cross the barrier alone, so they need atleast one monster SOUL to reach the threshold of power to cross. Frisk is a human with godlike levels of DETERMINATION. They already had enough power to cross the barrier in the first place.
I do agree with what you say, fundamentally speaking it also can come down to the question on if these attacks really are physical or specifically targeting the soul too which can make certain feats even harder to really compare to other characters in fiction. Since then that begs the question of, if it is the latter then how can one hurt another characters soul? Do other characters beyond Undertale have souls that Monster magic could affect? It's just fundamentally hard to scale much of anything Undertale has with other media. Say for example Sans going up against Darth Vader. How high his Vader's HP? What's his LV? Does karma scale up in intensity for every hit that Sans would land on him if he even really could? Does the Force/any ability by the other character affect the magic in some way? So on and so forth. Another commenter said on how AU verses power scaling is also out of wack and I very much agree with that as well as it's all down to interpretation of feats than say, anything exactly concrete. It's one thing to show a character doing it and another to say they can, and often for AU scaling, it's more of a telling, not showing due to the limited nature of fanworks.
@@Some_Pole the monsters are certainly hitting your physical body (at least most of time), you recover HP if you use the bandage, you are stated to be wounded in Mettaton EX battle if you pose at certain HP, Toriel notices that you are hurt heavily implied by looking at how their body are, Undyne shows us that magic can interact with physical matter by her spears piercing tho bridges and her table etc
@@Hivatel so every character outside Undertale is soulless unless stated otherwise? Bullshit, if you're alive and not a undead then you have a soul. Karma doesn't scale with lv, then what does it scale with wiseguy? Hp? Exp? Karma is your punishment for genocide so it should scale with lv Not having a soul cause you're not from undertale? Even if a character somehow doesn't have a soul, im pretty sure the rules would be that said character would have a soul
I agree with this but in a difrent way. Its not nececarly that sans is stronger, but how he fights is just too difrent for anyone to really put up against. I mean hey goku can 1 shot him and go to fast for sans to dodge, but that dont mater when sans can just stop them from atacking intirely. The only thing to prevent this is if you had a atchaul digital fight button which only frisk/chara have. And dont even get me started with asriel.
Ehh.. I mean I see your point, but there's nothing to say that goku would have to go by undertale's rules, or that undertales rules would even work that way in the first place.
@@worthyedge9307yeah and besides it would inly work if goku has a soul, a human soul to be exact. Would goku be a monster soul since hes a saiyan? Or would he get the determination soul since he always wants to push hes limits and looks like human?
The thumbnail got me thinking of jjk snd undertale pararrells Like how both cursed and monsters become dust post death and are made of a pure magical ellement(magic or cursed energy) Most humans probably dont have that in ut and jjk but the select few are op And if you wanna interpret it as thay battle mode is a domain expansion with a sure hit effect on the soul Am i reading too much into it
An Undertale AU that would be interesting and one of the easier ones to poweescale is Epictale (Reboot) Imo I deleted my previous comment because it appeared on the community post for some reason
People even insulted me because i say things similar to this, game mechanics in battle are canon, so Frisk cant be scaled because the fights happen with their soul, not their body, and also monsters like the dog that attacks with barks, its not attacking with sound, its just magic bullets, the game says so in the Books, but if you say that to the fanboys, they even say you have ADHD
If we just ignore some unnecessary game mechanic in scaling, and just only focus on their stats. I think scaling somehow get easier. Ex: Removing box and turn-based but only keep abilities in exchange for better scaling but less fun. nice vid btw.
When it comes to these hypothetical vs. fights with Undertale involved, there’s one question I have: how would the opponent’s soul even work? Would they have one? Would it function similar to a human or monster soul?
By the nature of their universe's rules, it would still work with other video games with similar concepts in their mechanical structures, like other RPGs or due to it's unique battle style some characters who are played in bullet hell games, like Touhou.
I remember one time explain the power scaling between characters in Dragon Ball and Undertale? For example, some people say that Frisk from Undertale is stronger than Goku from Dragon Ball. They argue this because in Undertale, Frisk gains EXP (experience points) by killing monsters, which makes them stronger. By that logic, Goku, who has defeated many powerful enemies, should also be incredibly strong. If we consider villains from Dragon Ball, like Janemba, who can manipulate souls and even prevent someone from coming back to life, it would be interesting to see how they compare to Frisk. In Dragon Ball, Janemba’s abilities are formidable, and he could theoretically kill Frisk and prevent them from ever returning. However, it’s important to remember that both Dragon Ball and Undertale are just games, and these comparisons are mainly for fun. Each universe has its own rules and logic. Just because a character is strong in one universe doesn’t necessarily mean they would be in another. It’s all about enjoying the games and the different stories they tell.
I think an interesting matchup would be Frisk vs Suzumi Kuzu (a character from Len’en Project), considering their similar abilities. Other than that, powerscaling is something I can’t take seriously, especially when comparing verses that have little to do with each other.
Watching this video has opened my eyes quite a bit ngl. Especially since im writing my own swapfell game. I was trying to make reasons in canon as to why you can reset in the underground but it doesnt affect everything else. And how to make resets make sense in my head. Ive slowly forget that these game mechanics are canon just cause they are. It bothers me slightly, ive decided to create in universe reasons for some of this stuff and maybe decanonizing certain stuff. Like turn based combat, like why would a fallen and savage underground respect each other enough to take turns. No! They'd kill you as soon as they saw you as a threat or for fun. Of course it will still be a game mechanic, i just find it intriguing to learn through the writing process that undertale has some massive plot holes when you really dug deep into it. Its fun trying to patch it up and turn them into your own. In this project I also want to expand into some of the more unexplored material. Like how the hell did this human-monster war start at all. How would the underground get fellified? Anyway if yiu took the time to read this, have a nice day.
"I understand why you feel that, and in my personal opinion, That is the most boring response anyone could ever come up with ever, People just want to have fun, It's like shutting down a debate about how you should say the word Comfortable, with Tomato Tomato Potato Potato, because You aren't adding anything to the conversation you are just making it more annoying, But I understand your reason and respect your personal opinion
Undertale AUs have tons of problems with powerscaling. For example, we have the canon and fanon interpretation. I’ll name a few Sanses that have their fanon counterparts used a lot in debates. 1. Ink Sans Canon Ink Sans -Can summon ink portals to go into any AU -Protects the scripts of all AUs; he does not create them -Has a big brush that can create anything he likes and it can come to life -Can interact with AUs -Stronger than ULB but still weak (Idk if this is true or not) -Should be Wall to Small Building Level and possibly higher with the paint brush Fanon Ink Sans -At least Multiversal+ with immeasurable speed, complex Multiversal in the Doodlesphere -Creates AUs -Stronger than the majority of the popular AUS like UnderFell, Outertale, etc -Can scale to Error Sans -Can summon ink portals and ink based attacks 2. VHS Sans VHS Sans facts in canon -He can grab attack sprites and uses it against you -He doesn’t have any immunity or resistance confirmed -VHS Sans is stronger than ULB (stated by IamaBoss0) -Only flaw is if he attacks for way too long, his eye will melt (upwards) more and more which would hurt him Fanon VHS Sans -Stronger than almost every Sans AU -Can fight Fanon Wiki who should be similar in stats with him 3. Wiki Sans Wiki Sans’s facts in canon -He can shape shift into any Undertale character he wants, he preferably likes being Sans -He reads wikis about canon Undertale and also the Undertale AU page -He can’t interfere with their wiki pages -He is likely omniscient hence the name Wiki Fanon Wiki -Has overpowered abilities -His shape shifting can allow him to create attacks -Likely omniscient (like Canon Wiki) -Can interfere with the Undertale wiki page and also the Undertale AU wiki page as well If anyone wants to know the canon facts about Ink, VHS, or Wiki, I have it all covered (or you can look in the creator’s Tumblr or RUclips about them). I just took the main information about their canon. There’s more canon facts about these 3 Sanses but I’m not going to list them all.
like really If I used the undertale scaling on murder sans, then murder would be at omega flowey level of power, don't ask me, ask forgien he scaled murder well with the undertale system instead of scaling murder with a outside system. like really, I'll say murder sans LV 20, 84 HP, Armor : Dusty jacket boosts defense by 6 ATK 39(basically if you have no I-frames[which is likely],murder would be able to oneshot frisk LV 1-4), DEF 5
I've always wondered if you'd do like a Dusttale: I Miss You video essay tbh Of course it isn't finished yet but I think once another demo/full release came out it would be a cool subject to discuss, especially from you
Stan Lee once said on video that we should remember that these are all fictitious characters, and whoever wins is dependent on whoever the writer wants to win.
Same can’t be said about games however. The player character’s success relies on the player’s competence. Even if you ultimately win, in a multiplayer game the better player just wins.
See one is a story and one is a game so that dosent fully apply also as long as a story isn’t inconsistent with a character’s power with no story reason then yea they can be powerscaled
A serious problem with undertale power scaling is the fact that sans teleports by abusing game mechanics, like being able to blackout the screen or wrong warp to different areas which he calls "shortcuts" and no one knows if sans can teleport and messes with frisk or if he has a trick to warping space
And there's the KR things. That I think it was Intented to exist at LV19 in Sans Fight People thinking that it still poison us at low level when the KR is supposed to exist only in sans Fight where you're LV19.
I think the main issue is that the Undertale Fandom is so twisted when it comes to the story at this point that people really confuse how strong or weak a character is, ESPECIALLY Sans Like, I've seen people try to say things like Sans can beat Perfectheart from OMORI
Yeah he can, wanna know why? She’s a thought💀 sans is real compared to her, meaning he outscales her in every possible way. And don’t even get me started on the omori powerscaling community. Those things think omori can beat Goku and saitama💀💀💀
@@Mango-zz3vt 😭 lmfaoooo well, it’s the truth, it’s really just basic powerscaling 😭 can’t put sans against a real human because a real human is well, real, sans is just a fiction.
@@Mango-zz3vt but I won’t harass you over it tbh, it was just dumb luck that we appeared in the same comment section. But I do agree with your original point to an extent. People severely over power sans. The guys strong sure, but he can’t solo dragon ball or something crazy like that. He’s just a silly guy who cheats.
@@ethan7376sans cant outclass perfectheart because he cant exactly fight a character originating from a dream while being awake, meaning theres no fight at all, and if he fell asleep, sans would get cooked because he's weaker than perfectheart
This is why game characters are usually harder to scale than comic or anime characters since they mostly rely on PURE statements and fewer visual feats and they tend to get wanked in general. Also, UNDERTALE itself doesn't work in Crossverse battles in general, and using UNDERTALE AU's won't work as well since as much as I want to support fan creations, I think it would be an incredibly poor move to add fanmade stuff which is 1. Incredible unreliable for scaling and 2. Very easily viewed as spitting on the face of fandoms for full-blown and official series.
1:40 that is actually wrong believe it or not you still have i frames but it’s hard to tell with the kr but realistically speaking the torn note book and cloudy glasses are the best for sans
Sidenote Sans says level 20 is the maximum in one of his judgments and Deltarune implies that all humans have 20hp with kris. So it’s not because we can’t kill anybody as we’re LV 20 before we kill asgore and flowey . Lv 20 is just the maximum possible.
Well obviously not... who thought it was is my question lmao. But that is why it is fun to think about, trying to figure out how to make something work even though it isn't made to work in that way is fun.
What annoys me in regards to Undertale powerscaling is when people keep saying that Sans is supposed to be multiversal because "he fought the anomaly." Except Sans wasn't fighting the anomaly. He was fighting some kid. A kid whose actions were dictated by the anomaly, but there's nothing implying that the anomaly does anything to make Frisk actually stronger in any way. Sans "fighting" the anomaly is about equivalent to a fly buzzing around your head: incredibly annoying, but ultimately harmless.
For real lol The only noteworthy thing in terms of being an "anomaly" during that fight was the one time frisk attacks twice in the same turn. But even then, there are way too many ways or assumptions for how/why that even happened. Hell, you can even argue that it had nothing to do with how strong frisk was or that it had nothing to do with chara, but it was just because frisk's cursor was stuck on the attack button, so you can just kind of... attack again lol
This is why we can't get a real Undertale Death Battle video. Like seriously, looking at canon feats should Ubdertale technically be the weakest Fandom bc Monsters are meant to be tremendously weak against even a single monster. Btw that logic Undertale gets negative diffed by a lot. If a literally child could endure whole ass attacks from boss monsters, they would be *COOKED* against a human adult.
Mostly yes Then you get to monsters with human souls like Asriel when he and chara tried their plan he was able to wipe out a whole human village armed with guns ( remember chara fell in the 2010s) Then there is Photoshop flowey who can alter reality with 6 souls and Asriel with literally infinite power with 7 souls Those 3 versions of him ( or any monsters with human souls for that matter ) would be the only actual versions of characters you could do a death battle with thats not fully onesided against undertale
@@maila319 light world kris is literally as strong as frisk kinda Frisk in the code has 10 attack and 10 defense at LV1 but 0 on both in the menu Kris has 10 in deltarune so lorewise kris is stronger but in the code they are even Dark world kris has 10 attack and 2 defense ( don't ask the logic of how it goes down) WITHOUT any armors or weapons plus 90 HP at LV1 +2 attack and 30 HP each chapter Light world kris yeah Dark world kris easily Unless you give flowey the souls then kris loses
Undertale humans aren’t the same as other humans or iirl humans. Monsters are still strong, they just can have issues with intent sometimes. And the only reason Frisian could beat some of the monsters since they were super determined and had time powers (which only one person can really have). And because Frisk themselves is just a monster, probably even compared to some previous fallen humans.
@@Dragon_Aoi the other humans could also save and load they all made it to Asgore and gave up trying to beat him after enough deaths monsters Are weak they don't have problems with intentions sometimes they always do The game mentions since their bodies are Made of magic they are more fragile while humans being made mostly of water have more phyisical mass and thus are stronger outside also the fact intentions from the attacker making a regular attack possibly lethal Nothing in game mentions frisk is special or stronger outside of them never giving up due to their determination Like just notice the fact monsters are so much weaker human kids with sticks or ballet shoes can kill several easily
The thought of Goku breathing too hard and resetting time because he went a bit too far into a cave is why Undertale is peak fiction and absolutely SHOULD be powerscaled with other universes.
"lmao trash kid, L opinion, everyone knows that Jesus!dustdustdust!insanity!error404!killer!horror!fell!7souls!ultra!omega!hyper!shiftshift!gasterpowered!infinitebreath sans solos trash verses like OPM" - random 8y old in comments
The only way i think this battles can happen if x character got send to the universe of undertale so that character has to play with the rules of the game otherwise it wont work
This is why overall it's difficult power scaling different verses, because each one goes by its own logic. For example characters like Bugs Bunny, it's useless to try comparing him to other characters in power because in Looney Tunes the one who wins is just decided by what's more funny lol While you have characters like Vegeta who could negate a hax from a character who can destroy anything by just being more powerful than him (sorry if this may be inaccurate, im not a big dragon ball fan)
@@suwa77not exactly. For crossover battles, you can have verse equalization or reasonably assume what would and wouldn't work. But for undertale, you have to assume much much more than usual, and it just results in things not really making complete sense for either verse. Undertale is one of the worst verses to scale that I've ever seen lol
@@worthyedge9307 I know, but most cartoon characters are considered multiversal because they do ridiculous feats effortlessly. (For comedic effects.) People allow many wacky things to pass power scaling but it's suddenly deep and complicated now that we are talking about Undertale? Sorry, Am I missing something? (I'm not too into power scaling so can you explain some stuff because I'm confused.)
@@suwa77The big difference is that cartoon aren’t meant to follow of logic itself. They’re meant to be wacky, and goofy as much as they want. And depending if they can bypass the writer’s, and animator’s. Undertale does have rules, and logic. Killing a monster does have a consequence of your actions. Being killed in undertale seems to have a serious ground than goofy level. There’s a reason Genocide exists as a ending. As someone once said “In this world, it’s killed or be killed”
i think a very sans thing sans would do is he could skip episodes, pause animations and mess with subtitle he could also step out of animation frame and chilling in blank spaces, he could use skip episodes to skip villan transformation or when going on a boring adventure or pause animation to mess with characters and mess with the subtitles for fun making them say things they never said and i forgot to say he can also pause frames to change the music if he doesnt like it
This video reminds me back in my 2016 days where I would watch cartoon fight clubs (Insert undertale character) vs someone... Damn I was hell cringe as a child
Its weird that people always downplayed UT as if their not even human level which is insane to say. Like, people always say that Monsters' magic are not even real, humans are normal, and everything is isn't even impressive like Asriel or Chara's destruction. This is honestly crazy for people to try putting UT into this light. For one, all timelines are endless, due to the fact that the fun Values follow the many world interpretation and quantum mechanics, which makes more evident with Sans having a quantum book. So, Chara and Asriel's Destruction capabilities and Frisk's Creation capabilities are literally 2-A, characters that have influence or effect or stats that is on a level of infinite realities. Or another thing, as if Monsters' Magic doesn't even effect the real thing and isn't even human level, then explain Undyne and Mettaton literally perform feats beyond human, or Undyne and Toriel use their magic to do things that are obviously real and could easily kill a regular human. Or the fact that people assume that humans are normal in there when 8 children survived the fall with almost zero damage, and humans in the medieval era literally have zero casualties in a war were their opponent are literally Xmen but everything is lethal levels of power houses. Its honestly bad enough to ignore these obvious details about the world that would make sense. I honestly believe that people did this just to show their hatred and frustration with UT and its popularity.
Nice video, while I like crossover battles, I just get pushed away when people start to powerscale the point of wanting excuses to oneshot a character and win the argument rather than to see a good fight, i like seeing feats, but I dont like when people take them out of context or assume that a character automatically raises when beating another, like, weaker characters can beat stronger ones if you just manage to be better in combat, isnt Undertale whole thing with determination? And for toxic dragon ball fans, lets rebember that Goku canonically says to his brother "if all you see is power than you arent a real fighter" (Warning this next paragraphs gonna be LOOOOOOOONG) Also, I would like to mention some things in Undertale , even tho you used the LoL (Localization book) to explain why Frisk determination is ours (tho i strongly believe is connected), the same book shows how the translator (that had constantly contacted Toby Fox) changed the "But it Refused" line due to the loss of the Re-fuse pun, to a first person "No! I won't be broken!", this is Frisk speaking, this is THEIR determination to refuse death, and they also have acess (or at least try) to the save states without our input, only failing due to the player's determination and Asriel clashing agaisnt each other And now to LOVE, I explained in another of yours videos, but will explain here, since is something that again, Powerscalers love to bring up without knowing the context LOVE is just level of violence, is not actual power being gained, as Sans explained "The more LV, the more you distance from yourself, the more your distance from yourself, the less you're hurt (reason for DF and HP raising) and more you can bring yourself to hurt others (AT raising)" these are all mental changes, not actual physical ones, the only reason to why people think so is because we only deal with creatures that not only are affected by emotions, but that take even more damage to a powerful soul (ours), this combination being a recipe to disaster agaisnt monsters Thus physically, LV1 Frisk and LV20 Frisk is about the same, only one being more agressive and less hesitant, but, if you ask me, if I had to separate those two, LV1 Frisk is the stronger one Reasons to be clear What about the HP and DF? Well, what stopping from being a different way of showing Frisk pesistency? Rebember, this kid tanked a laser blast from a go refused death and regained HP, there is also the fact the HP is "Hit points" rather than "Health Points" according to the manual, and its heavily implied that Frisk (at least most of the time) doesnt "heal" from the attacks, the food is only a boost of energy and the other times they regain HP by determination, Frisk is not healing, they recovering energy to keep going (the flavor text never says heal too, only that thu recovered), now Frisk in the pacifist route can do this in battle, while Genocide they can do only in save point.. see where im getting at? As for the AT, again Frisk is physically the same, LV just make so that Frisk is less hesistant on their attacks, so yeah, Frisk could just decide to hold back to keep up with a genocidal one This is actually quite nice to think about it, LV1 is closer to themselves and achieve much more, while the more LV is more distant from themselves stuck in the power illusion they have over beings that are weak to them, just a bully
I think can't work isn't the word. (Firstly because there is non-researched versus shows) Mostly because undertale was saïd to be free of interpretation.
@@WARPCORPoration some people say that chara wins because they can destroy the entire universe with their slash, but then again asriel did so with only a "small fraction of my (his) power" so honestly for the sake of my sanity i just like to think it'd be a tie and both would die
When you mentioned sans vs Gojo it just makes me think how chara vs sukuna would be the funniest fight. I’m picturing chara making so many attempts to kill sukuna then get to the point where sukuna opens his domain. “That’s bullshit”.
@@leopoldosoto779 I’m going under the assumption that chara doesn’t just try to destroy the timeline right away. Then after dying enough times chara just rage quits and destroys the timeline.
Since this is all a game and most other things surrounding Undertale besides the base game are fan content,the power levels and abilities of the characters are subject to different intpretations of the lore,therefore there's no definitive way to powerscale them...
Whoever said that's right. The difference is: In Undertale it's actually canon that Frisk can respawn save load and reset. In most other games it's simply a convenient feature.
i get your points but undertale is far from a verse that can't be powerscaled (yap alert) there are many, waaay less compatible verses for powerscaling, "Battlecats" is one of them when dealing with verses like Undertale Verse Equalization is applied, we assume that unless the universe the world takes place in is explicitly fictional in the context of its own story, it can be equalized to a real reality. so if goku was put against asriel they would both simply be able to fight as if both of their worlds were real despite how Meta undertale is. even Monika from DDLC can be equalized to reality (mainly because she isn't fictional to begin with) your point on game mechanics is valid but the way sans uses them can effectively be attributed to reality warping, him "Extending his turn" would be considered a form of law manipulation, him ignoring invincibility frames is just regular invulnerability negation, him dodging is just... him dodging, making him far faster than Frisk, who would already know where he would be when he moved. Frisk loading is time manipulation and resurrection, etc. undertales "Battle Mode" is one of the things thats a bit confusing due to how abstract it is but you can ultimately just chalk that up to "inapplicable true game mechanics" and assume that characters aren't actually fighting in a box but rather the visible environment they were in before the fight because the Box is hardly relevant to the story anyways even when its used. Karma was actually never stated to only work on Good or Bad people, thats fanon, though im not sure where it originated from. given the way EXP and soul damage works in undertale, if Sans fought Frieza, he would still only have 20 HP despite his power because his soul is not growing in strength, only his physical body, which sans attacks explicitly ignore & pass through (although there is flavor text of "Karma coursing through your veins"). you have a fair point in regards to determination but i think its just a case by case basis, if a character has no notable feats of determination, Frisk is more determined, but if they do something like "keep fighting even after having their head cut off" on sheer willpower, then they are likely more determined. although i think its worth noting that Frisk's determination is actually quantifiable as it scales to their power, Frisk takes attacks from Asriel Dreemur in both of his forms, the first of which can casually erase timelines and the world and the second of which was causing the world to end just by existing (which consists of many worlds + all of the reset timelines that are "Stopped", with flowey stating he had "Seen every line of dialogue and done everything" making it easily Multiversal) so Frisk is determined enough to survive a 4D beings attacks by not giving up; also we would just assume Frisk's determination = anything the player is intended/capable of doing in a regular run, like continuing to fight and defeat sans despite many quitting on him due to difficulty. the purpose of Vs debates is to see who would win in a balanced and fair fight between 2 fictional characters for fun, to take away abilities because "They shouldn't work" would just negate any and all of the fun in the fight, at that point, i could just say all fictional characters are fictional and therefor their power is just varying degrees of infinitesismal. TL;DR: Undertale, and many other "Meta universes" like Overlord, while very different and not fully compatible, can still be equalized to other verses reality if we simply assume Game Mechanics are like the laws that govern out reality and manipulating them is like manipulating reality and therefor would work even in an out-of-game context. 🤓☝
A big problem still remains though. For most, if not all feats in undertale, there are wayy too many ways to interpret them. I agree that you can equate certain things to how it would work if they were to accomplish it outside of their own fictional world, but some feats just have way too many interpretations, and we can't really be sure how to understand how to scale them. Another issue is understanding that not everything should be scaled outside of the game's meta mechanics. For instance, the gerson boom store feat throws a wrench into a LOT of the scaling. Gerson knows that you're not able to kill him since he is in the shop. However, we understand that if not for the game's mechanics, there wouldn't be anything stopping you from just killing him. So it ends up causing confusion on what game mechanics do or don't mean something, and you end up REALLY having to cherry pick. One more issues is how many no limits fallacies just get thrown around. Some people see sans's karma mechanic and assume that means that if a really ridiculously powerful character is evil enough, sans should just be able to one shot him. Or some people assume the fact that sans is the only character that can dodge IN COMBAT WITH THE PLAYER (asgore is stated to be able to dodge, but we never see anything like that in his fight) to mean that he can pretty much dodge any attack he wants until he gets tired. Scaling most of undertale has its issues, scaling some of the characters we KNOW are among the top (like asriel in the pacifist route, omega flowey, maybe chara too) are easier to scale because you can kind of guess where they would scale at the very least. But scaling sans to a higher point is almost a waste of time lol. To scale sans and make him sound powerful, you have to make much more assumptions than normal, jump through loopholes, become a chess grand master, read every religious text from front to back. Its a nightmare and ends up not making a lot of sense one way or another.
@@darklight1171 I mean yeah, that's true, but undertale scaling requires a LOT more assumptions and cherry picking than normal. And thats just with the usual characters. But when you start to highball sans, thats a nightmare, and no matter what, any high interpretation ignores one thing or another.
Yup it's unfair to compare a game to fiction character because frisk or other players character can't be defeated because of the persons determination i remembered trying to kill sans 500+ tines i still be abled though the hardest I've played should probably be last breath it took me years still a game is a game.
Im think a interesant character in vz no take in cocideration is asgore, asgore im think is literraly more strong to a human in literally everyhting (excpet determiantion), more atack (literally can one shot pacifist frisk), more defence (is similar to undyne the undyning), can dodge, summon blue or orange atacks, can break the rules of the game (or the mercy buttom).
I doubt that Asgore could one hit a human. Don't forget how much stronger they are compared to monsters. Heck, even Undyne the Undying can't one hit a human. (even with the worst armor) And at LV10 we only have 2def (without item). "(is similar to undyne the undyning" Undyne have 19 more defense than him.
@@sheogorath6834 and the fact undyne in genocide, cant one shot the human no make any sense becuse the stats, say can kill frisk in one or two hits (and undyne no have any reson to no use all power), obiusly is to make the battle more easy, but no have logic. The stats in undertale is a lie is my final opinion
@@gabrielmbx9253 "and the fact undyne in genocide, cant one shot the human no make any sense" And why that? Because you said so? "becuse the stats, say can kill frisk in one or two hits " That's forgetting that humans are way stronger than monsters, and that their stats don't work the same way at all. 10atk for a human and 10atk for a monster is not the same.
Monsters are canonically weak to attacks from people who want to kill them. In a fight against any morally dubious character or one that kills their enemies they're screwed.
Since the RPG mechanics are canon to the Undertale world it would be funny seeing a Undertale character fighting someone from another verse just for the other fighter to be like "why tf cant I attack" and have them reply "its not your turn yet"
Just imagine a destroyer of the Universe, only to be stalled by Sans Undertale
yeah, imagine Dio using Za Warudo, punching Sans(hard, because he doesn't know he has one hp but normal human would survive after that) only to see last breath no effect text and hear sans says "erere- i mean, "bro it's not your turn yet" and die immediately on his first attack because he doesn't know the rules but so does sans and he can't reset
I'm not giving you your turn
..ever@@D_1Ju1
Mario & luigi would win with the rpg mechanics, given their ability to counterattack during the enemy's turn on the m&l rpgs
Final Fantasy, anyone?
Undertale canonically uses in-game turn-based fighting.
I can just imagine, since ASGORE can’t die, he could theoretically just stall out until the enemy dies of old age
Asgore if he wasn't depressed be like:
Asgore is killed by frisk at the end of the no mercy run he's also killed by flowey in the neutral run if you do fight back against him in his boss fight
He can die I think he just doesn't age
@@dust8286 At the end of Geno, Frisk kills ASGORE outside of a fight. The battle doesn't even start and no buttons are pressed.
He's killed by Flowey, but that's because Flowey catches him by suprise after he's weakened.
I'm saying that, with turns having no time limit, he could just stand there forever.
AND HE CAN DO THIS
DUE TO THE LACK OF AGING
@@cetadel6597 oh right I forgot
2:35 They outright state in a neutral judgement that 20 is the maximum you can get
Well atleast we have gotten rid of one of the problems
That’s just in the underground
@@djmewtwo6981 There are still monsters you could have logically killed in genocide, the ones hiding in true lab, its not that the max is 20 because thats the max you can kill, you literally CANT go past 20
Because then there'd be no one left to farm
@@hellgates_javed6451 there are still monsters in the true lab
There are a couple of weird misconceptions here, and I feel obligated to clear them up.
1.) Lv 20 IS the max, and no, it's not because of there not being any Monsters left. As revealed by the Alphys ending, there are still monsters hiding in Alphys' lab, so Lv IS limited to 20 canonically.
2.) Yes, KR would still work even if the person is good. The misonception that KR works as Karmic Retribution came from the fandom. KR in it's entirety is some weird status effect more likened to Poison than anything (KARMA coursing through your veins).
3.) Humans are still said to be naturally Determined, and are proven to be via The Six Human Souls, as well as The Omega Flowey fight. Frisk also still has their "refuse" ability after the Asriel fight, so this is just a canonical upgrade.
4.) Someone already said this, but the 99999 refers to EXP, not the people you've killed.
5.) This honestly happens whenever someone discusses Undertale, but just to be clear, Frisk is NOT just regular Human child. People seem to forget that Humans are just plain CRACKED in the Undertale universe, and that the Monsters are literally weak to the harming intent of a Human. With all that in mind, it's not THAT surprising that even a Child with murderous intent could take most of them down.
Something else to be remembered is that Monsters, or at the very least Sans, directly attack the SOUL. So, using Sans as an example here; Sans would still be pretty powerful outside of his verse.
Teleportation, Durability Negation, KR, Timestop, plus the amount of speed needed to consistently dodge someone who knew where you would be before you even took the action in the first place.
Good comment
Sans also says LV 20 is the max in one of his neutral dialogues, it's when you're LV 10.
@metal42 that's true I remember that
You also forgot that he consistently stops time for a literal minute (during the second portion of his fight and in Grillby's talk with him).
@@Magma-Idiot-2001 I'm aware, I was just talking about the mechanics of the fight itself, where Sans teleports you, ignores your durability, and of course, uses KR on you.
Him stopping time is of course something I should have listed, though, since he does it in battle, so let me just add that real quick.
The reason Sans is matched against Gojo is because of their many similarities: Strongest Sorcerer and "Weakest" Monster; Special Eyes no one else has that are blue; Very unserious overall and joke around,, but still gets serious when necessary; Space Maniplation and Teleportation; Not being able to kill someone because of their friendship, just to see them again, or their former shell inhabited by another being (Chara deals the final blow, you don't do that second hit); Their death essentially meaning the world is doomed (yea sukuna has way too much plot armor)
I always thought it was because they both just had their left blue eye standing out lol
Honestly, I think Sans would lose hard, anybody with a domain can just beat Sans, because of the sure hit effect, (Whether you believe Sans can teleport out of it, But in this case, a 0.2 second domain expansion from Gojo's domain would be impossible for Sans to get out of, Meaning he can hold still enough for Gojo to kill him
The blue eye is blue and yellow
Sukuna is just stronger
2:35
… One problem with that.
The 99999…
Is in the EXP, not the NEXT.
NEXT is 0. Because *there is nothing next.*
If that's the case then why Chara wanted to continue killing but in the other worlds if their only desire is power?
@@Omega_Sans12345Chara is referencing going to a different game to start a new game (in the same vein to Flowey's parallel to a player 100%-ing a game).
@@Omega_Sans12345Chara never killed nor wanted to kill in other worlds. All they said was that this one had no more to offer, so destroyed it
And by players request remade it
@@gamercentral2417Headcanon to be canon is crazy.
@gamercentral2417 "let's abandon this dead world and erase the next"
Power scaling efforts are best spent on the fan comics. They more or less keep the characters at relatively similar levels most of the time. Unless it's an AU. Granted you won't be scaling the actual characters and just the general level of strength the fandom thinks they're likely at but that'll be as close as you can get.
"DETERMINATION."
The spare change in my pocket:
RICOSHOT+DISRESPECT+ARSENAL+DRAKECORE+NO-NO
V1 is slaughtering chara ngl😭🙏
@@BoisAnimsButHesNew v1 would have fun doing the genocide route
@@arealwilda LITERALLY LOL
@@arealwilda
I mean, not be a bum but V1 would probably be more interested in Sans since he bleeds, the other monsters are just dust
the other day i saw a thing that was supposted to be like a fanmade sans's theme in ULTRAKILL, and the comments were talking only about who would win lmao
Sans would be an ULTRAEASY fight, but also leave V1 ULTRAFRUSTRATED at how he can't get ULTRAPRANK due to not getting enough ULTRASTYLE, due to Sans being ULTRAFRAGILE and ULTRADYING instantly to ULTRAHITSCAN ULTRAAIMBOT. Therefore not giving the ULTRAPLAYER any room to get ULTRASTYLE.
But this is all just a theory, an ULTRAGAME theory.
I mean sans could abuse mechanics
He can't let you heal
He could just teleport (annoying)
He could shoot your own coins
+NUCLEAR-REACTION
Not counting god tiers like True Pacifist Frisk V1 would have a good chance since he doesn't even have a soul iirc
But if we count god tiers he's getting onetapped before he's even created
in my opinion, it would be a toss-up, It depends on who you think could go longer, if V-1 could dode Sans's attacks enough to hit enough shots to make him dodge and tire himself out, or if Sans can deal enough damage to kill V-1 since he cannot heal off of Sans because he just dodges it, Personally, I think sans would be a pain in the ass for V-1 to fight, Sans would probably just do things like, Throwing around V-1's coins and shooting the coins with gaster blasters before V-1 can, he would likely be hard to beat, So I think sans High Diffs the fight, but I can see why someone would say V-1 would win
If Frieza throwed a giant meteor at sans, the meteor would aim unexplainably back to Frieza
sans is too fat, that’s why
@@Bobboerba And the meteor would Inexplicably be behind Frieza
So, The batter vs Frisk/Chara, would make even more sense, good video.
That's why I felt like Underverse didn't really have Sans, just very powerful characters. Sans is strong because he messes with the game's files. Just "being powerful" kinda ruins why he's good. Sans isn't inherently strong, he's just a cheater who resorts to underhanded tactics, and he does this because he HAS to.
Purplegeist pfp? W
Sans is powerful actually.
@@mechamedegeorge6786 Yes, because he cheats: He changes the game mechanic to something convenient so that he could deal more than 1 damage, he attacks you even when it's your turn, or even just dodges your attacks.
Sans's greatest feature isn't raw power, his feature is HAX. By hax, I both mean the fact he tampers with the game's mechanics and the fact his capabilities are basically MEANT to bypass the strengths of his opponents and turn the tides in his favor.
Okay I don't think he messes with the game files, but I agree with everything else
I heavily disagree. Especially since other AUs in Underverse are made by other creators & the only really powerful characters in Underverse that exist are Nightmare, Error Sans (whose Underverse version is weaker than canon Error btw), & X-Gaster (who is suppose to represent a AU creator, so it makes sense why he’s strong)
Yeah scaling Undertale gets very confusing, since game mechanics like armor clash with their soul manipulation abilities. Plus meta narrative things.
And the fact that monsters are literally weak to violent intentions, means that weak thug henchmen in many shows can kill the entire underground with no problem.
attacking in the menu while not showing it lol
Generally speaking, scaling the REAL UNDERTALE is borderline impossible by default, especially without the characters' abilities being re-adapted to traditional fighting. BUt it really doesn't end there: a majority of well known AUs such as UNDERFELL aren't often made with power scaling in mind, and a good chunk of them (I.E. Aftertale, Dusttale, Ask Error, The thought, and Horrortale) are mostly confined to the same rules. Ink, Fresh, and even Error aren't as high and mighty as 2016 fandom made them out to be, the only 4 AUs that can properly be scaled being those that completely deviate in style and ideas (Xtale, Epictale, Reapertale, and IRONICALLY Horrortale, the last two in which don't even have many feats to abuse), and the only viable AUs that can match some of the more outlandish cosmologies (basically fictional universe/multiverse/space itself) are the very cheap and poorly written ones like ALPHATALE (which is a very notorious AU that hides its real issues behind the stigma of it just being an "OVERPOWERED sans AU"), so it just feels like a disservice to the UTMV.
If anything, UTMV matchups should be matchups between the UTMV and similar verses, such as that of OFF or Yume Nikki, since anyone who isn't LV20 Frisk/Chara (which is just them being completely locked in) or Xtale Mettaton (as a fine example) would either be cheating behind what are basically UNDERTALE's version of "Spell card rules", or would be getting served by someone who is built for more traditional combat, such as Faust from Guilty Gear or Dirk Strider from Homestuck (a series that Toby himself made music for).
Deltarune vs Mario bowser inside saga is weirdly possible I think
Just gotta choose which dodging system they will use
Then it would just be a draw since the dodging abilities of the fun gang and the bros is based on the players skill
@@NoymoHD Me when Mario is called a master in martial arts back in Mario RPG which confirms he canonically has good skill:
@@user153xhzbso8e Mario can know all the martial moves he wants, but if there's a dodge system then it will always end in a draw
hey... That true
@@NoymoHDwell, id say that the battle will be long as hell, but maybe it will end with who can counter (if we use the M&L dodge system) the most attacks and what team haves the hp and enough items to survive the almost endless amount of counters
Here's a detail I noticed:
Asgore has killed at least 2 humans by himself if we consider Undyne's line "No human has ever made it past ASGORE!"
So I think it's safe to say that humans don't give EXP like monsters, since Asgore could have leveled up if that was the case, but Asgore's stats are 80 ATK 80 DEF, that match up with Toriel's stats, and even if Asgore's stats could have been increased by the humans' EXP, I think it'd be kinda weird...
Then again, maybe the humans DID give EXP, but it wasn't enough to level up Asgore, and now that I think about it maybe some people's EXP needed to level up would be different from person to person... we just don't know...
What I can say is that if we do take characters like Frieza and send them to Undertale, I don't think they'd level up since they did the killing in a world where EXP and LV don't exist. I guess.
Asgore didn't get EXP, because he didn't absorbed human souls
Toby DID say asgore stats were halfed and that he wasn’t trying, meaning he would have an actual 160 atk and def
@@vavalaz That's a nice argument, why don't you back it up with a source?
Maybe you need to destroy the soul to get exp? That will explain why we don't get exp after killing Asgore, because Flowey is the one who destroy his soul.
@@sheogorath6834 simple, papyrus uses bones not made from his magic but in his weird box thing, I really don’t see why sans would be any different, plus sans is the only character (that I remember at least) that got as tired as he did.
This is such an interesting take on the subject that I've never thought of before! Especially the Sans portion, really opened my eyes to what exactly he was doing in that fight to give him the strength he had. After watching all of it, I honestly share the same opinion as you now, though it is cool seeing VS videos of these characters nonetheless.
I think what most people don't understand is that reset probably only works in their universe and their game mechanics. Even if there were people fighting them in their universe, they'd still destroy because game mechanics is JUST game mechanics. (despite the whole reset thing and whatnot. but that'd probably not apply to the battle since we're talking about the battle itself.)
Meanwhile, Touhou character's can't damage anyone with their danmaku bullets:
Don't tell that to Theking35
Yeah they aren't meant to kill because of an agreement made in Gensokyo
Pretty much this is what happens... as long as both opponents play by "spellcard rules". The moment oponnent breaks them if they're unable to finish battle fast, shit starts happening.
-Accroding to fandom. Trying to figure out power levels in canon is dangerous to your sanity cuz Zun sucks at powerscalling
@@Koiishi_Komeijibreaking danmaku rules- it's like spawn angry(at you) Yukari.
But hey! Their power still working a little!
@@WARPCORPoration no, actually. Must Touhou character's feats- is just danmaku spellcards.
Well, this helps a lot, considering im writing a story, using sans in another universe. Maybe I'll make his character something of an enigma, with like his own set of rules, or maybe just bend and break the rules of the universe he's in. Thanks pal.
Oh so how is your progress
@@uyphamvan7819 its, going...it has its ups and downs, but I'm trying hard to make it a coherent, as well as a well written story.
I think the main problem with powerscaling Undertale AUs specifically is just the fact that there’s so many variables & things to take into account.
(This comment will be very long btw)
For example, i’ll explain Ink Sans & Killer Sans as an example:
Canon Ink Sans (he was originally created by Comyet. They have a bunch of asks & a official blog for Ink) is canonically mostly featless & cannot create any living beings or AUs. The only thing they have canonically done is add a sky into the doodlesphere & the islands (based on the comic). Although Comyet doesn’t like people portraying Ink as being extremely defenseless either.
But in the fangame (a fanon version), he has 3 phases & has created (& can summon) every AU. In Underverse, Ink is actually a little close to canon in terms of personality (him being chaotic neutral), but he hasn’t really been animated using his creation / Ink manipulation abilities to his full potential.
There’s also hundreds of other fanon versions which portray Ink as a god of creation.
In Canon, Killer has defeated the star sanses (who were portrayed horribly) & there was a canon side comic of Killer explaining that in his canon verse every character is stronger or weaker depending on the AU they entered in.
So if any character (Nightmare, Killer, even Error404), etc were to enter an AU where that creator views them as strong or weak or powerless, they will become that way in that AU.
So if Ink & Error were to fight in an AU where that AU creator viewed them as gods, then their fights will be more destructive compared to an AU in which the creator sees them similar to their canon versions.
In Fanon, Killer is portrayed as being weaker than canon though.
That’s not even mentioning the portrayals of how powerful human souls & determination are in every AU. How different stats work for monsters & humans, different interpretation of Determination / resets / LV / what the red soul is, how a characters code is portrayed, how there’s different interpretations of Incodes & Outcodes, Misinformation in wiki’s, Alphatale existing, a creator’s statements compared to actual feats shown, different Undertale AU Multiverses, different portrayals of the Anti-Void / Doodlesphere / Omega Timeline possibly affecting a character’s powerscale, etc.
Even just scaling the Underverse versions has its own issues.
In Undertale, the combat system, soul modes, how stats & damage within monsters & humans can change, the fact that stats when checking them is different from stats in the files, and how human souls are (usually) stronger than monster souls are all things to remember as well.
Canon Killer, in something new, already beat Ink, which is hilarious. Meanwhile, Fanon Killer can't beat Frisk😢.
@@Xenodrad5301 I can honestly comment a whole essay on how much I don’t like that specific Canon Killer comic because of how bad rhawbas (however you spell the creator’s name lol) portrayed the star sanses but (I think) the creator admitted themselves that Killer was pretty much a cringy oc they made
@purpledshadow This is ironically why i hate the powerscaling in the community, half of it is "god vs. god" bullcrap that if you have a remotely balanced character, you'd be clowned on by the entire AU community cause they're not a fucking god.
I hate the fact people bring up different stats in the files.
It's a game, they're different so the game can work. Would you really like Asgore to deal 80 damage to you? Or Undying 99? No, files just don't count unless they are meant to specifically be found like Entry Number 17.
@@The_Christian_Kirbo SAME. I personally also hate the 999999 attack damage stuff though. I’ve seen so many people use that to scale Frisk to stupidly high levels but I don’t think we / Frisk are actually doing 99999999… damage, it’s just suppose to represent us attacking a monster in one hit.
Not to mention, most things can't be analyzed for feats because w aren't shown them. Sure, Undyne can suplex a boulder, but we don't see it, meaning we can't measure the size and weight, meaning that it doesn't count.
And Undyne & Asgore can dodge (stated via dialouge), but they just don’t in the fight. We also have no clue as to how strong Toriel & Asgore really are if they were to fight seriously. We have also never seen Asriel GOH form use it’s complete full power & there’s inconsistencies with Asriel’s purged timeline feat like how the barrier wasn’t broken as a result & the surface was still intact.
@@purpledshadow "And Undyne & Asgore can dodge (stated via dialouge)" It was never stated that Undyne could dodge, only Asgore.
@@sheogorath6834 yeah never stated, tho it feels kinda weird that asgore trained her for so much time and never showed undyne how to dodge
@@purpledshadowAsriel doesn't have a purged timeline feat.
@@Hivatel The purged timeline feat in question is when he forms that huge skull and tries sucking you into it.
I've done a few Undertale and Deltarune power scaling edits, and it doesn't matter who wins because there's always going to be someone on both extremities saying one side loses, or the other solos 😭
Powerscaling in UT AU is just “my OC is stronger than you because everyone likes it”, it make me feel kinda dumb when compared au with au because after all they all just fan creation.
Great vid! I do have a couple comments to add;
LV 20 would be the max level you could earn bc it's from killing specifically monsters made from magic and after killing every monster the player can only earn LV 20, also someone else in the comments said thay it's said in game as well.
(Ok I forgot about shop keepers, monsters hiding in Alphy's lab, and the Amalgamations, but they can't be killed in-game, and again it's stated that LV 20 is the limit).
Good job on stating that there's a difference between in-game stats and in-verse stats, a ton of people who scale the characters (such as Asriel Dreemurr) forget that in-verse stats should be used and not the actual damage taken in-game.
In my opinion Omega Flowey only gets betrayed by the souls because it's Frisk, no other reason, in my opinion ofc.
And thank you for not being toxic 🙏
I swear anytime someone tries to power scale Goku or smth with Undertale they are ALWAYS toxic.
I agree that it's basically irrelevant to power scale a game that is heavily based on mechanics and yk, is a game.
Anyways cool vid!! I originally found your channel through the La Jupo video but somehow lost it, but I made sure to sub this time, yea, hope others like the video as well!!!
(Second comment since I don't feel like editing the other)
I also think undertale has way to many plot holes (especially in soul biology) to really scale them without using fanon stuff
I wouldn't say plot holes with soul biology (it's simplistic in Undertale, their about as fleshed out as any game). The only plothole I can think of is Frisk's fate in the Neutral Ending (especially if they DID somehow cross the barrier, something that only a human + monster soul could do).
@@Magma-Idiot-2001
I mean Frisk having a soulless Chara with them isn't exactly "normal" either
@@narrativeless404 that's fair, but let's not ignore the Flowey in the room, Asriel was brought back to life in a similar vein to Chara.
@@Magma-Idiot-2001 Flowey had 6 souls. He just took Frisk with him.
@@Magma-Idiot-2001Human SOULs are powerful because of DETERMINATION. The average human SOUL doesn't have enough power to cross the barrier alone, so they need atleast one monster SOUL to reach the threshold of power to cross. Frisk is a human with godlike levels of DETERMINATION. They already had enough power to cross the barrier in the first place.
CartoonRewind, doing 12 vs episodes with Sans alone:
"This sign can't stop me! I can't read!"
Stand proud, sans undertale, you were strong.
I do agree with what you say, fundamentally speaking it also can come down to the question on if these attacks really are physical or specifically targeting the soul too which can make certain feats even harder to really compare to other characters in fiction. Since then that begs the question of, if it is the latter then how can one hurt another characters soul? Do other characters beyond Undertale have souls that Monster magic could affect?
It's just fundamentally hard to scale much of anything Undertale has with other media. Say for example Sans going up against Darth Vader. How high his Vader's HP? What's his LV? Does karma scale up in intensity for every hit that Sans would land on him if he even really could? Does the Force/any ability by the other character affect the magic in some way? So on and so forth.
Another commenter said on how AU verses power scaling is also out of wack and I very much agree with that as well as it's all down to interpretation of feats than say, anything exactly concrete. It's one thing to show a character doing it and another to say they can, and often for AU scaling, it's more of a telling, not showing due to the limited nature of fanworks.
@@Some_Pole the monsters are certainly hitting your physical body (at least most of time), you recover HP if you use the bandage, you are stated to be wounded in Mettaton EX battle if you pose at certain HP, Toriel notices that you are hurt heavily implied by looking at how their body are, Undyne shows us that magic can interact with physical matter by her spears piercing tho bridges and her table etc
Also, Karma coursing tho your veins, just o reminded
He'd have stats, they'd be pretty broken, karma would definitely scale with LV, obviously other characters would have souls unless they're soulless
@@xSkysilverKR does not scale with LV canonically.
And other verse characters would NOT have SOULs because they're not from the Undertale verse.
@@Hivatel so every character outside Undertale is soulless unless stated otherwise? Bullshit, if you're alive and not a undead then you have a soul. Karma doesn't scale with lv, then what does it scale with wiseguy? Hp? Exp?
Karma is your punishment for genocide so it should scale with lv
Not having a soul cause you're not from undertale? Even if a character somehow doesn't have a soul, im pretty sure the rules would be that said character would have a soul
I agree with this but in a difrent way. Its not nececarly that sans is stronger, but how he fights is just too difrent for anyone to really put up against. I mean hey goku can 1 shot him and go to fast for sans to dodge, but that dont mater when sans can just stop them from atacking intirely. The only thing to prevent this is if you had a atchaul digital fight button which only frisk/chara have.
And dont even get me started with asriel.
Ehh.. I mean I see your point, but there's nothing to say that goku would have to go by undertale's rules, or that undertales rules would even work that way in the first place.
@@worthyedge9307yeah and besides it would inly work if goku has a soul, a human soul to be exact. Would goku be a monster soul since hes a saiyan? Or would he get the determination soul since he always wants to push hes limits and looks like human?
The thumbnail got me thinking of jjk snd undertale pararrells
Like how both cursed and monsters become dust post death and are made of a pure magical ellement(magic or cursed energy)
Most humans probably dont have that in ut and jjk but the select few are op
And if you wanna interpret it as thay battle mode is a domain expansion with a sure hit effect on the soul
Am i reading too much into it
An Undertale AU that would be interesting and one of the easier ones to poweescale is Epictale (Reboot) Imo
I deleted my previous comment because it appeared on the community post for some reason
People even insulted me because i say things similar to this, game mechanics in battle are canon, so Frisk cant be scaled because the fights happen with their soul, not their body, and also monsters like the dog that attacks with barks, its not attacking with sound, its just magic bullets, the game says so in the Books, but if you say that to the fanboys, they even say you have ADHD
So what your saying is that Frisk uses a stand to fight hmmmm
0:18 uhhh little glitch here-
If we just ignore some unnecessary game mechanic in scaling, and just only focus on their stats. I think scaling somehow get easier.
Ex: Removing box and turn-based but only keep abilities in exchange for better scaling but less fun.
nice vid btw.
When it comes to these hypothetical vs. fights with Undertale involved, there’s one question I have: how would the opponent’s soul even work? Would they have one? Would it function similar to a human or monster soul?
By the nature of their universe's rules, it would still work with other video games with similar concepts in their mechanical structures, like other RPGs or due to it's unique battle style some characters who are played in bullet hell games, like Touhou.
I remember one time explain the power scaling between characters in Dragon Ball and Undertale? For example, some people say that Frisk from Undertale is stronger than Goku from Dragon Ball. They argue this because in Undertale, Frisk gains EXP (experience points) by killing monsters, which makes them stronger. By that logic, Goku, who has defeated many powerful enemies, should also be incredibly strong.
If we consider villains from Dragon Ball, like Janemba, who can manipulate souls and even prevent someone from coming back to life, it would be interesting to see how they compare to Frisk. In Dragon Ball, Janemba’s abilities are formidable, and he could theoretically kill Frisk and prevent them from ever returning.
However, it’s important to remember that both Dragon Ball and Undertale are just games, and these comparisons are mainly for fun. Each universe has its own rules and logic. Just because a character is strong in one universe doesn’t necessarily mean they would be in another. It’s all about enjoying the games and the different stories they tell.
I feel like you can put sans up against any character and you can make a case of why sans always wins due to rules of Undertale.
Idk how to relate this video to overtime
Unless some character in fiction has a “turn on/off” game mechanics in fiction I don’t think it’s easy to powerscale them
I also heard a thing about Flowey: He doesn't use stats the same way
I think an interesting matchup would be Frisk vs Suzumi Kuzu (a character from Len’en Project), considering their similar abilities. Other than that, powerscaling is something I can’t take seriously, especially when comparing verses that have little to do with each other.
Watching this video has opened my eyes quite a bit ngl. Especially since im writing my own swapfell game. I was trying to make reasons in canon as to why you can reset in the underground but it doesnt affect everything else. And how to make resets make sense in my head. Ive slowly forget that these game mechanics are canon just cause they are. It bothers me slightly, ive decided to create in universe reasons for some of this stuff and maybe decanonizing certain stuff. Like turn based combat, like why would a fallen and savage underground respect each other enough to take turns. No! They'd kill you as soon as they saw you as a threat or for fun. Of course it will still be a game mechanic, i just find it intriguing to learn through the writing process that undertale has some massive plot holes when you really dug deep into it. Its fun trying to patch it up and turn them into your own. In this project I also want to expand into some of the more unexplored material. Like how the hell did this human-monster war start at all. How would the underground get fellified? Anyway if yiu took the time to read this, have a nice day.
Gerson wins every time. Burgerpants too, but I don’t think he cares.
In my opinion power scaling doesn’t really matter tbh because the creators can make whoever they want to win
"I understand why you feel that, and in my personal opinion, That is the most boring response anyone could ever come up with ever, People just want to have fun, It's like shutting down a debate about how you should say the word Comfortable, with Tomato Tomato Potato Potato, because You aren't adding anything to the conversation you are just making it more annoying, But I understand your reason and respect your personal opinion
@@vortex_all9055 pfp checks out
Undertale AUs have tons of problems with powerscaling. For example, we have the canon and fanon interpretation.
I’ll name a few Sanses that have their fanon counterparts used a lot in debates.
1. Ink Sans
Canon Ink Sans
-Can summon ink portals to go into any AU
-Protects the scripts of all AUs; he does not create them
-Has a big brush that can create anything he likes and it can come to life
-Can interact with AUs
-Stronger than ULB but still weak (Idk if this is true or not)
-Should be Wall to Small Building Level and possibly higher with the paint brush
Fanon Ink Sans
-At least Multiversal+ with immeasurable speed, complex Multiversal in the Doodlesphere
-Creates AUs
-Stronger than the majority of the popular AUS like UnderFell, Outertale, etc
-Can scale to Error Sans
-Can summon ink portals and ink based attacks
2. VHS Sans
VHS Sans facts in canon
-He can grab attack sprites and uses it against you
-He doesn’t have any immunity or resistance confirmed
-VHS Sans is stronger than ULB (stated by IamaBoss0)
-Only flaw is if he attacks for way too long, his eye will melt (upwards) more and more which would hurt him
Fanon VHS Sans
-Stronger than almost every Sans AU
-Can fight Fanon Wiki who should be similar in stats with him
3. Wiki Sans
Wiki Sans’s facts in canon
-He can shape shift into any Undertale character he wants, he preferably likes being Sans
-He reads wikis about canon Undertale and also the Undertale AU page
-He can’t interfere with their wiki pages
-He is likely omniscient hence the name Wiki
Fanon Wiki
-Has overpowered abilities
-His shape shifting can allow him to create attacks
-Likely omniscient (like Canon Wiki)
-Can interfere with the Undertale wiki page and also the Undertale AU wiki page as well
If anyone wants to know the canon facts about Ink, VHS, or Wiki, I have it all covered (or you can look in the creator’s Tumblr or RUclips about them). I just took the main information about their canon. There’s more canon facts about these 3 Sanses but I’m not going to list them all.
like really If I used the undertale scaling on murder sans, then murder would be at omega flowey level of power, don't ask me, ask forgien he scaled murder well with the undertale system instead of scaling murder with a outside system.
like really, I'll say murder sans LV 20,
84 HP, Armor : Dusty jacket boosts defense by 6
ATK 39(basically if you have no I-frames[which is likely],murder would be able to oneshot frisk LV 1-4), DEF 5
I've always wondered if you'd do like a Dusttale: I Miss You video essay tbh
Of course it isn't finished yet but I think once another demo/full release came out it would be a cool subject to discuss, especially from you
I definitely will when it gets completed,should be relatively soon
Asriel's abilities are goated, that's all I gotta say
Stan Lee once said on video that we should remember that these are all fictitious characters, and whoever wins is dependent on whoever the writer wants to win.
Ah the great Stan Lee, his wisdom is beyond these simple minded buffoons
Same can’t be said about games however. The player character’s success relies on the player’s competence. Even if you ultimately win, in a multiplayer game the better player just wins.
See one is a story and one is a game so that dosent fully apply also as long as a story isn’t inconsistent with a character’s power with no story reason then yea they can be powerscaled
7:29 OFF mentioned!!
Yes Clover vs Bater
Don’t delete it this time I wanna watch D:
Some text are put pretty weirdly like 3:53 you gotta avoid that
A child being able to kill the entire underground means the monsters are super duper weak and cant even scratch the adults
That's why almost every single main charater have save and load.
Or maybe frisk is just too overpowered.
@@YandereJasfodacii yeah that might be it too
A serious problem with undertale power scaling is the fact that sans teleports by abusing game mechanics, like being able to blackout the screen or wrong warp to different areas which he calls "shortcuts" and no one knows if sans can teleport and messes with frisk or if he has a trick to warping space
And there's the KR things.
That I think it was Intented to exist at LV19 in Sans Fight
People thinking that it still poison us at low level when the KR is supposed to exist only in sans Fight where you're LV19.
To be fair, I've heard several people say that V1 (Ultrakill) would beat Vriska (Homestuck). Honestly powerscaling is just kinda dumb sometimes.
2:46 its over nine thousand XDDDDDDD
I think the main issue is that the Undertale Fandom is so twisted when it comes to the story at this point that people really confuse how strong or weak a character is, ESPECIALLY Sans
Like, I've seen people try to say things like Sans can beat Perfectheart from OMORI
Yeah he can, wanna know why? She’s a thought💀 sans is real compared to her, meaning he outscales her in every possible way. And don’t even get me started on the omori powerscaling community. Those things think omori can beat Goku and saitama💀💀💀
@@ethan7376 Not you again. Get out of here with the "fictional fiction" logic
@@Mango-zz3vt 😭 lmfaoooo well, it’s the truth, it’s really just basic powerscaling 😭 can’t put sans against a real human because a real human is well, real, sans is just a fiction.
@@Mango-zz3vt but I won’t harass you over it tbh, it was just dumb luck that we appeared in the same comment section. But I do agree with your original point to an extent. People severely over power sans. The guys strong sure, but he can’t solo dragon ball or something crazy like that. He’s just a silly guy who cheats.
@@ethan7376sans cant outclass perfectheart because he cant exactly fight a character originating from a dream while being awake, meaning theres no fight at all, and if he fell asleep, sans would get cooked because he's weaker than perfectheart
I huh never thought about this.
This is why game characters are usually harder to scale than comic or anime characters since they mostly rely on PURE statements and fewer visual feats and they tend to get wanked in general.
Also, UNDERTALE itself doesn't work in Crossverse battles in general, and using UNDERTALE AU's won't work as well since as much as I want to support fan creations, I think it would be an incredibly poor move to add fanmade stuff which is 1. Incredible unreliable for scaling and 2. Very easily viewed as spitting on the face of fandoms for full-blown and official series.
Aus are the ones that i think can be put in vs battles imo
Off topic, but nobody's talking about the fact that Gojo is in the thumbnail.
1:40 that is actually wrong believe it or not you still have i frames but it’s hard to tell with the kr but realistically speaking the torn note book and cloudy glasses are the best for sans
Sans beats every universe because he remembers you're **powerscales** (this is getting old smh)
Sidenote Sans says level 20 is the maximum in one of his judgments and Deltarune implies that all humans have 20hp with kris.
So it’s not because we can’t kill anybody as we’re LV 20 before we kill asgore and flowey . Lv 20 is just the maximum possible.
Well obviously not... who thought it was is my question lmao. But that is why it is fun to think about, trying to figure out how to make something work even though it isn't made to work in that way is fun.
Is it just me or did the videi vanish then re appear a few minutes ago
What annoys me in regards to Undertale powerscaling is when people keep saying that Sans is supposed to be multiversal because "he fought the anomaly." Except Sans wasn't fighting the anomaly. He was fighting some kid. A kid whose actions were dictated by the anomaly, but there's nothing implying that the anomaly does anything to make Frisk actually stronger in any way. Sans "fighting" the anomaly is about equivalent to a fly buzzing around your head: incredibly annoying, but ultimately harmless.
For real lol
The only noteworthy thing in terms of being an "anomaly" during that fight was the one time frisk attacks twice in the same turn. But even then, there are way too many ways or assumptions for how/why that even happened. Hell, you can even argue that it had nothing to do with how strong frisk was or that it had nothing to do with chara, but it was just because frisk's cursor was stuck on the attack button, so you can just kind of... attack again lol
This is why we can't get a real Undertale Death Battle video. Like seriously, looking at canon feats should Ubdertale technically be the weakest Fandom bc Monsters are meant to be tremendously weak against even a single monster.
Btw that logic Undertale gets negative diffed by a lot. If a literally child could endure whole ass attacks from boss monsters, they would be *COOKED* against a human adult.
Mostly yes
Then you get to monsters with human souls like Asriel when he and chara tried their plan he was able to wipe out a whole human village armed with guns ( remember chara fell in the 2010s)
Then there is Photoshop flowey who can alter reality with 6 souls
and Asriel with literally infinite power with 7 souls
Those 3 versions of him ( or any monsters with human souls for that matter ) would be the only actual versions of characters you could do a death battle with thats not fully onesided against undertale
Does that mean Kris from Deltarune can solo Undertale monsters?
@@maila319 light world kris is literally as strong as frisk kinda
Frisk in the code has 10 attack and 10 defense at LV1 but 0 on both in the menu
Kris has 10 in deltarune so lorewise kris is stronger but in the code they are even
Dark world kris has 10 attack and 2 defense ( don't ask the logic of how it goes down) WITHOUT any armors or weapons plus 90 HP at LV1 +2 attack and 30 HP each chapter
Light world kris yeah
Dark world kris easily
Unless you give flowey the souls then kris loses
Undertale humans aren’t the same as other humans or iirl humans.
Monsters are still strong, they just can have issues with intent sometimes.
And the only reason Frisian could beat some of the monsters since they were super determined and had time powers (which only one person can really have).
And because Frisk themselves is just a monster, probably even compared to some previous fallen humans.
@@Dragon_Aoi the other humans could also save and load they all made it to Asgore and gave up trying to beat him after enough deaths monsters Are weak they don't have problems with intentions sometimes they always do
The game mentions since their bodies are Made of magic they are more fragile while humans being made mostly of water have more phyisical mass and thus are stronger outside also the fact intentions from the attacker making a regular attack possibly lethal
Nothing in game mentions frisk is special or stronger outside of them never giving up due to their determination
Like just notice the fact monsters are so much weaker human kids with sticks or ballet shoes can kill several easily
The thought of Goku breathing too hard and resetting time because he went a bit too far into a cave is why Undertale is peak fiction and absolutely SHOULD be powerscaled with other universes.
...you mean because it's fun?
@@Unknown-jk7rs ny, yes.
Love your content man
"lmao trash kid, L opinion, everyone knows that Jesus!dustdustdust!insanity!error404!killer!horror!fell!7souls!ultra!omega!hyper!shiftshift!gasterpowered!infinitebreath sans solos trash verses like OPM" - random 8y old in comments
Those people goes by Stronger equal good equal better mindset.
It is i, racist dustdust
@@tilingodxd Hey! Say the word.
@@tilingodxd it is i, unfunny meme
@@Vikt-vg8nz ererer, funny, because i don't remember asking you ererer
Sans vs Judge from OFF though
🔥🔥
Mario and Luigi solo
Mario and Luigi solo ALL
The only way i think this battles can happen if x character got send to the universe of undertale so that character has to play with the rules of the game otherwise it wont work
This is why overall it's difficult power scaling different verses, because each one goes by its own logic. For example characters like Bugs Bunny, it's useless to try comparing him to other characters in power because in Looney Tunes the one who wins is just decided by what's more funny lol
While you have characters like Vegeta who could negate a hax from a character who can destroy anything by just being more powerful than him (sorry if this may be inaccurate, im not a big dragon ball fan)
Yup, by the logic of this video, no powerscaling is safe.
@@suwa77not exactly. For crossover battles, you can have verse equalization or reasonably assume what would and wouldn't work. But for undertale, you have to assume much much more than usual, and it just results in things not really making complete sense for either verse. Undertale is one of the worst verses to scale that I've ever seen lol
@@worthyedge9307 I know, but most cartoon characters are considered multiversal because they do ridiculous feats effortlessly. (For comedic effects.) People allow many wacky things to pass power scaling but it's suddenly deep and complicated now that we are talking about Undertale? Sorry, Am I missing something?
(I'm not too into power scaling so can you explain some stuff because I'm confused.)
@@suwa77The big difference is that cartoon aren’t meant to follow of logic itself. They’re meant to be wacky, and goofy as much as they want. And depending if they can bypass the writer’s, and animator’s.
Undertale does have rules, and logic. Killing a monster does have a consequence of your actions. Being killed in undertale seems to have a serious ground than goofy level. There’s a reason Genocide exists as a ending. As someone once said “In this world, it’s killed or be killed”
i think a very sans thing sans would do is he could skip episodes, pause animations and mess with subtitle he could also step out of animation frame and chilling in blank spaces, he could use skip episodes to skip villan transformation or when going on a boring adventure or pause animation to mess with characters and mess with the subtitles for fun making them say things they never said
and i forgot to say he can also pause frames to change the music if he doesnt like it
This video reminds me back in my 2016 days where I would watch cartoon fight clubs (Insert undertale character) vs someone... Damn I was hell cringe as a child
Same with me, CFC introduced me to Undertale.
Its weird that people always downplayed UT as if their not even human level which is insane to say.
Like, people always say that Monsters' magic are not even real, humans are normal, and everything is isn't even impressive like Asriel or Chara's destruction. This is honestly crazy for people to try putting UT into this light. For one, all timelines are endless, due to the fact that the fun Values follow the many world interpretation and quantum mechanics, which makes more evident with Sans having a quantum book. So, Chara and Asriel's Destruction capabilities and Frisk's Creation capabilities are literally 2-A, characters that have influence or effect or stats that is on a level of infinite realities. Or another thing, as if Monsters' Magic doesn't even effect the real thing and isn't even human level, then explain Undyne and Mettaton literally perform feats beyond human, or Undyne and Toriel use their magic to do things that are obviously real and could easily kill a regular human. Or the fact that people assume that humans are normal in there when 8 children survived the fall with almost zero damage, and humans in the medieval era literally have zero casualties in a war were their opponent are literally Xmen but everything is lethal levels of power houses. Its honestly bad enough to ignore these obvious details about the world that would make sense.
I honestly believe that people did this just to show their hatred and frustration with UT and its popularity.
Nice video, while I like crossover battles, I just get pushed away when people start to powerscale the point of wanting excuses to oneshot a character and win the argument rather than to see a good fight, i like seeing feats, but I dont like when people take them out of context or assume that a character automatically raises when beating another, like, weaker characters can beat stronger ones if you just manage to be better in combat, isnt Undertale whole thing with determination? And for toxic dragon ball fans, lets rebember that Goku canonically says to his brother "if all you see is power than you arent a real fighter"
(Warning this next paragraphs gonna be LOOOOOOOONG)
Also, I would like to mention some things in Undertale , even tho you used the LoL (Localization book) to explain why Frisk determination is ours (tho i strongly believe is connected), the same book shows how the translator (that had constantly contacted Toby Fox) changed the "But it Refused" line due to the loss of the Re-fuse pun, to a first person "No! I won't be broken!", this is Frisk speaking, this is THEIR determination to refuse death, and they also have acess (or at least try) to the save states without our input, only failing due to the player's determination and Asriel clashing agaisnt each other
And now to LOVE, I explained in another of yours videos, but will explain here, since is something that again, Powerscalers love to bring up without knowing the context
LOVE is just level of violence, is not actual power being gained, as Sans explained "The more LV, the more you distance from yourself, the more your distance from yourself, the less you're hurt (reason for DF and HP raising) and more you can bring yourself to hurt others (AT raising)" these are all mental changes, not actual physical ones, the only reason to why people think so is because we only deal with creatures that not only are affected by emotions, but that take even more damage to a powerful soul (ours), this combination being a recipe to disaster agaisnt monsters
Thus physically, LV1 Frisk and LV20 Frisk is about the same, only one being more agressive and less hesitant, but, if you ask me, if I had to separate those two, LV1 Frisk is the stronger one
Reasons to be clear
What about the HP and DF? Well, what stopping from being a different way of showing Frisk pesistency? Rebember, this kid tanked a laser blast from a go refused death and regained HP, there is also the fact the HP is "Hit points" rather than "Health Points" according to the manual, and its heavily implied that Frisk (at least most of the time) doesnt "heal" from the attacks, the food is only a boost of energy and the other times they regain HP by determination, Frisk is not healing, they recovering energy to keep going (the flavor text never says heal too, only that thu recovered), now Frisk in the pacifist route can do this in battle, while Genocide they can do only in save point.. see where im getting at?
As for the AT, again Frisk is physically the same, LV just make so that Frisk is less hesistant on their attacks, so yeah, Frisk could just decide to hold back to keep up with a genocidal one
This is actually quite nice to think about it, LV1 is closer to themselves and achieve much more, while the more LV is more distant from themselves stuck in the power illusion they have over beings that are weak to them, just a bully
The last part about LV is basically what the fandom does to Chara
Can he beat Goku tho
Asriel yes
Agreed.
Do they can beat *Black* Frieza?
When is the asriel vs goku video coming out?
sans. Unfertale😜 myg,OAT!!🐐🐐 wouldd total!YY WIN!! donT DISRESPFET!!’ MY?GGOAT!!😡
gaster would be TOO OP and also sans is so good from iq but i respect everyones opinions tho
Gaster is featless. Sans might have IQ, but we don’t know how much exactly.
People who played Undertale🤝People who played Shadow of Erdtree: Hate Sunflowers
Why Undertale VS can't work ?
Because of AUs
I think can't work isn't the word.
(Firstly because there is non-researched versus shows)
Mostly because undertale was saïd to be free of interpretation.
chara vs asriel hurts my head
There's someone that said Asriel's ∞ attack is false because ∞ can't be reduce (something like can't hold the power). Sad and hurt my head
@@WARPCORPoration some people say that chara wins because they can destroy the entire universe with their slash, but then again asriel did so with only a "small fraction of my (his) power" so honestly for the sake of my sanity i just like to think it'd be a tie and both would die
@@unreal_idk.yeah that would be the most precious reason.
I don't understand this debate, Asriel have power of 7 souls, Chara only 1
@@snake9255same meta reason Asriel couldn't obliterate frisk, souls don't matter against determination and lv 20 can cause similar destruction.
When you mentioned sans vs Gojo it just makes me think how chara vs sukuna would be the funniest fight. I’m picturing chara making so many attempts to kill sukuna then get to the point where sukuna opens his domain. “That’s bullshit”.
Nah, for once sukuna can't beat chara, a timeline destroying human, like they can just one shot him, like no problem.
@@leopoldosoto779 I’m going under the assumption that chara doesn’t just try to destroy the timeline right away. Then after dying enough times chara just rage quits and destroys the timeline.
@@dennmenn99 fair point.
Since this is all a game and most other things surrounding Undertale besides the base game are fan content,the power levels and abilities of the characters are subject to different intpretations of the lore,therefore there's no definitive way to powerscale them...
"frisk is op he/she can respawn, save, load, and reset."
Literally every single Video game character:
Whoever said that's right.
The difference is:
In Undertale it's actually canon that Frisk can respawn save load and reset.
In most other games it's simply a convenient feature.
7:13 I lowkey thought he was gonna say "BUT HEY THAT'S JUST A THEROY A GAME THEROY!"
i get your points but undertale is far from a verse that can't be powerscaled (yap alert)
there are many, waaay less compatible verses for powerscaling, "Battlecats" is one of them
when dealing with verses like Undertale Verse Equalization is applied, we assume that unless the universe the world takes place in is explicitly fictional in the context of its own story, it can be equalized to a real reality. so if goku was put against asriel they would both simply be able to fight as if both of their worlds were real despite how Meta undertale is. even Monika from DDLC can be equalized to reality (mainly because she isn't fictional to begin with)
your point on game mechanics is valid but the way sans uses them can effectively be attributed to reality warping, him "Extending his turn" would be considered a form of law manipulation, him ignoring invincibility frames is just regular invulnerability negation, him dodging is just... him dodging, making him far faster than Frisk, who would already know where he would be when he moved. Frisk loading is time manipulation and resurrection, etc.
undertales "Battle Mode" is one of the things thats a bit confusing due to how abstract it is but you can ultimately just chalk that up to "inapplicable true game mechanics" and assume that characters aren't actually fighting in a box but rather the visible environment they were in before the fight because the Box is hardly relevant to the story anyways even when its used.
Karma was actually never stated to only work on Good or Bad people, thats fanon, though im not sure where it originated from. given the way EXP and soul damage works in undertale, if Sans fought Frieza, he would still only have 20 HP despite his power because his soul is not growing in strength, only his physical body, which sans attacks explicitly ignore & pass through (although there is flavor text of "Karma coursing through your veins").
you have a fair point in regards to determination but i think its just a case by case basis, if a character has no notable feats of determination, Frisk is more determined, but if they do something like "keep fighting even after having their head cut off" on sheer willpower, then they are likely more determined. although i think its worth noting that Frisk's determination is actually quantifiable as it scales to their power, Frisk takes attacks from Asriel Dreemur in both of his forms, the first of which can casually erase timelines and the world and the second of which was causing the world to end just by existing (which consists of many worlds + all of the reset timelines that are "Stopped", with flowey stating he had "Seen every line of dialogue and done everything" making it easily Multiversal) so Frisk is determined enough to survive a 4D beings attacks by not giving up; also we would just assume Frisk's determination = anything the player is intended/capable of doing in a regular run, like continuing to fight and defeat sans despite many quitting on him due to difficulty.
the purpose of Vs debates is to see who would win in a balanced and fair fight between 2 fictional characters for fun, to take away abilities because "They shouldn't work" would just negate any and all of the fun in the fight, at that point, i could just say all fictional characters are fictional and therefor their power is just varying degrees of infinitesismal.
TL;DR: Undertale, and many other "Meta universes" like Overlord, while very different and not fully compatible, can still be equalized to other verses reality if we simply assume Game Mechanics are like the laws that govern out reality and manipulating them is like manipulating reality and therefor would work even in an out-of-game context. 🤓☝
Interesting observation...
The problem is you need to make a lot of assumptions for it to work.
@@waluigiisthebest2802 a lot power scaling is assuming anyways.
A big problem still remains though. For most, if not all feats in undertale, there are wayy too many ways to interpret them.
I agree that you can equate certain things to how it would work if they were to accomplish it outside of their own fictional world, but some feats just have way too many interpretations, and we can't really be sure how to understand how to scale them.
Another issue is understanding that not everything should be scaled outside of the game's meta mechanics. For instance, the gerson boom store feat throws a wrench into a LOT of the scaling. Gerson knows that you're not able to kill him since he is in the shop. However, we understand that if not for the game's mechanics, there wouldn't be anything stopping you from just killing him. So it ends up causing confusion on what game mechanics do or don't mean something, and you end up REALLY having to cherry pick.
One more issues is how many no limits fallacies just get thrown around. Some people see sans's karma mechanic and assume that means that if a really ridiculously powerful character is evil enough, sans should just be able to one shot him. Or some people assume the fact that sans is the only character that can dodge IN COMBAT WITH THE PLAYER (asgore is stated to be able to dodge, but we never see anything like that in his fight) to mean that he can pretty much dodge any attack he wants until he gets tired.
Scaling most of undertale has its issues, scaling some of the characters we KNOW are among the top (like asriel in the pacifist route, omega flowey, maybe chara too) are easier to scale because you can kind of guess where they would scale at the very least. But scaling sans to a higher point is almost a waste of time lol. To scale sans and make him sound powerful, you have to make much more assumptions than normal, jump through loopholes, become a chess grand master, read every religious text from front to back.
Its a nightmare and ends up not making a lot of sense one way or another.
@@darklight1171 I mean yeah, that's true, but undertale scaling requires a LOT more assumptions and cherry picking than normal. And thats just with the usual characters.
But when you start to highball sans, thats a nightmare, and no matter what, any high interpretation ignores one thing or another.
02:00 "Sans is the weakest enemy"
Ice: Am I a joke to you
Ruins dummy:
Off the game mentioned!!❤️🔥❤️🔥
So does the monster vs human war looked like a pokemon regional tournament?
Yup it's unfair to compare a game to fiction character because frisk or other players character can't be defeated because of the persons determination i remembered trying to kill sans 500+ tines i still be abled though the hardest I've played should probably be last breath it took me years still a game is a game.
Im think a interesant character in vz no take in cocideration is asgore, asgore im think is literraly more strong to a human in literally everyhting (excpet determiantion), more atack (literally can one shot pacifist frisk), more defence (is similar to undyne the undyning), can dodge, summon blue or orange atacks, can break the rules of the game (or the mercy buttom).
Asgore can't one shot any Frisk though, you will always be hit down to 1 HP before being killed. (This makes the Apron really good for Asgore fight)
@@CR1MSONACE becuase im talk to a serius asgore, asgore in the game never figth serius
I doubt that Asgore could one hit a human. Don't forget how much stronger they are compared to monsters.
Heck, even Undyne the Undying can't one hit a human. (even with the worst armor) And at LV10 we only have 2def (without item).
"(is similar to undyne the undyning" Undyne have 19 more defense than him.
@@sheogorath6834 and the fact undyne in genocide, cant one shot the human no make any sense becuse the stats, say can kill frisk in one or two hits (and undyne no have any reson to no use all power), obiusly is to make the battle more easy, but no have logic. The stats in undertale is a lie is my final opinion
@@gabrielmbx9253 "and the fact undyne in genocide, cant one shot the human no make any sense" And why that? Because you said so?
"becuse the stats, say can kill frisk in one or two hits " That's forgetting that humans are way stronger than monsters, and that their stats don't work the same way at all. 10atk for a human and 10atk for a monster is not the same.
Monsters are canonically weak to attacks from people who want to kill them. In a fight against any morally dubious character or one that kills their enemies they're screwed.
Tbh I have always thought that Chara kills the player for the soul to erase everything.