I feel the best way to analyze Chara and Flowey at the end of the day is just as mirrors to the player. Flowey, like the player, has torn the world apart countless times just to see each outcome, and Chara’s erasing of this world to move on to the next is a clever way of saying “we’ve reached the end of the game. Let’s play a different game like [insert video game]”. You’ve literally reached the end of the game; there’s nothing left to discover.
@@Koshara_is_derevni"ay this shit starting to get mid, let's go play modded minecraft." (And so Frisk spent the rest of their days playing every combination of mods out there by the suggestion of Chara.)
3:17 correction: in the neutral endings, sans doesn’t outright say he hates us. He does speculate that “maybe she’s not feeling well..?” but adds on to that if Papyrus is killed where he says “or maybe she’s not feeling anything at all?” So he only outright admits anger in any neutral ending where you kill Pap (unless you got the Dog ending of course and maybe the MTT ending)
If anything he DOES hate you for it, but just says that she's not feeling well likely because Papyrus is in the Room and afaik he pretty much never mentions Death when Papyrus is around.
There's something I don't like about D&D's character alignment system, how it often reduces multi-faceted characters to one or basic tropes. Undertale is a good example of that. If we were to follow the alignment system, pretty much more than half of the characters would fall under True and Chaotic Neutral. It removes certain layers of complexity that character has such as specific personality traits, some of their actions and how they're interpreted in the world they're in, reducing them to a basic character aligned to a very specific trope. Such as, "Sans is the judge", "Asgore is the misunderstood king", "Chara is the result of your actions", not as if those are 100% wrong, but there's always more than just that.
6:00 Sadly it's not canon but what I liked that in a fanmade Mettaton Neo fight he said the reason that he didn't called Asgore to absorb the 6 human souls is because he knew that Asgore would destroy the humanity. Actually Mettaton was the saviour of the humanity.
Sans actually DOES protect you. Him sleeping distracts Undyne in her chase, giving you more time to escape, he follows you around to keep an eye on you, and he never WAS gonna attack you, he's too lazy.
Also in a phone call, u find out that he lies to Undyne about there being no human. Risking his job. And/or etc. He don't know if he would have killed u or not w/o the promise though, what he said does make it seem like he would imo, but we don't know for sure if he would or not. Sans does protect u though, yeah, agreed. Though, sometimes he does so on technicalities (like, knowing about ur time powers, so u will be "fine" even if u die probably), and/or doesn't care as much anymore, due to nihilism and/or etc. to protect u as well as he could. But besides the thing u mentioned, the thing I mentioned above. He also gives tips, doesn't kill u in the first place or try to capture u, like a decent amount of monsters do (though, some are doing it by accident, because magic is just how monsters express themselves), even though he is a sentry. Etc. Sans is defin. morally gray/ambiguous. But he finds promises very important.
I personally think that Chara's personality depends on Frisk's actions or rather on the route that we, the player, take since we must keep in mind that even though we are in control, apparently Frisk's personality does change after everything like for example when he walks to attack monster kid in the geno he does it on his own but it is an effect of what we forced him to do before
It’s like reconstructing a being from the atoms of its corpse. A very, very difficult process that has a very low chance of accurately reproducing the specimen.
Undertale is so neatly written that no character is 100% good nor bad, they have so much depth I dare to say Mettaton is one of the worst characters morally due to his neutral ending, i cant excuse becoming a dictator and forcing everyone to worship him
And yet even then, his morality isn't completely vile. He's always had the dream of being an icon, someone to be inspired by, so when he gets the chance, he takes it so as to be the best entertainer out there. He's so caught up in the thrill of entertainment that he hardly considers being a good person until large events force him to.(Ex: Alphys implied suicide). Not saying you're wrong, you definitely aren't, but it's a testiment to how solid Toby's writing is
@@mistahmcmuffin What i'm thinking is that as someone who focuses his life on entertaiment, he has no idea how to be a ruler. He doesn't know any better than to turn everyone into his worshippers
Tbf this neutral ending is after he, who cleary know nothing about how to rule (and he knows that, he tried to ask Alphys for help but... Alphys was no longer there) and just lost his best (and probably only) friend, just got put into power because there were litterally no one else. No wonder that turned out badly. But at the same time this is the same guy who put his life on the line to save everyone in geno.
@@ilikecats24-ct5nx Very well said, although I think that's entirely the point. It's even a bit of commentary about putting celebrities in positions of power (it's all about them, even at the expense of others).
@@inciniumz4671 Every single person is morally gray. There is not one real person that is completely good or evil. Without any blurriness, the character feels flat and one dimensional in my opinion.
Because people are surrounded by propaganda that claims that there are no morally grey areas. That there is no nuance to issues, when there clearly is if you examine it with a critical eye. This all or nothing attitude is destroying society and it needs to stop.
And on the flip side, some people think they do get morally grey characters and think that that means you're wrong to criticize them for their actions.
14:20 I think he just cannot feel love. He can cry or be scared, he also murdered everyone few times over for a reson - to feel something. My theory is that he cannot feel compassion, and is less affected by other feelings
The thing about Toriel that bothers me is that she's an outlier in a way that makes her seem really pretentious. She leaves Asgore because of his stated goal to restart a war with humanity, but more importantly, kill any human who falls down for their soul. This in and of itself is fine, but the problem is SHE'S THE QUEEN. It makes her seem rather irresponsible to leave the underground without one of their rulers because of he personal distaste for Asgore's new policy. I get that she also grew resentful of monsters who had agreed with Asgore, but this isn't portrayed very well. From the start, she seems to be the only one who has a particular beef with Asgore, and I don't think she's wrong to be upset, but it's weird that she is the ONLY monster who seems to hold Asgore in a negative light because of this. If there was a specific "Asgore hate club" then it could be understood but instead it makes her beef feel really one sided, especially since in the final hours of the game, Undyne says that everyone's tried to kill Frisk at one point and Toriel has no reaction or concern for this despite having a strong dislike for Asgore over the same thing. This might've made more sense if Toriel and Asgore's relationship was already rocky before the final straw was broken, but as the VHS tapes show us, they actually had a very loving and understanding relationship. Wouldn't that mean that Toriel would be the most empathetic towards Asgore? Instead she acts like she just saw her ex from middle school. It's not about what Toriel did per say, it's more about what she didn't do. As the queen, she had the power necessary to at the very least rally some opposition to Asgore's tyrannical outburst, and even when she meets up with Asgore in the true pacifist run, she mentions a plan to use one human soul to cross the barrier and resolving the conflict peacefully and despite having this plan herself, she doesn't actually do anything. Yet here she is with her holier than thou attitude.
She also suggests that he should’ve taken 1 soul and used it to kill 6 more humans like that’s a better solution and everyone just kinda agreed with it who played the game, the point is that Asgore doesn’t want to hurt anyone so he’s delaying having to collect the souls for as long as he can
Very true at 0:27 Flowey is sadistic, but he hasn’t always been like that, and he either has a lack of soul or has PTSD/Depression. Toriel can be very clingy and while she means the best for the human, she needs to learn when to let go. Sans roots for ya, but he does say if he didn’t make a promise to Toriel, he would have attacked Frisk instantly. Papyrus in my opinion is the best main character, but even he has flaws, for example, he is full of himself and thinks about being popular, and does call you a weirdo for not liking puzzles in Genocide before offering you friendship despite the path. Undyne straight up lies to Papyrus about why he can’t join the Royal guard, but does what she does for the sake of monsters. Alphys has done a lot of messed up things, but it’s clear she WANTS to atone for the mistakes! Mettaton does a lot just to try to kill Frisk like hiring other to kill Frisk, but he did say he was saving humanity by not letting Asgore get your soul, and in a flawed Genocide run, he says he can rest, hoping you don’t destroy humanity and saying if you tried to be fully evil, you failed. Asgore, yeah he killed six humans, but he CLEARLY does not want to declare war, he’s just severely misguided. Chara is the last one that I should mention, yeah, they destroy the world of Undertale, but all they did was destroy your game, and besides in a Genocide run, you technically did it first, and Chara gives you consequences when you were originally lacking most of them. If Chara truly wanted to just kill, they wouldn’t have killed themself to let Asriel possibly being the one in control as they thought would happen, they would’ve just killed a Dreemurr and went on a rampage, they willingly tortured themself to death in order to spare their family, and the plan was only six humans (you need seven) as Chara was planning using their own soul so less would have to die. Asriel didn’t say they were evil, he said Chara did have flaws.
This is going to sound out of context, but if the next Smash game had a Subspace Emmisary and Sans was part of the roster, I don't think Sans joining the heroes (unless he was Crossbones) would fit his character since he only fights Frisk after commiting genocide. Plus, Frisk is a pacifist, so them fighting would be weird (unless their moveset incorparated pacifist and genocide) and the only ones I feel would join Mario, Sonic, Link or Kirby in saving the world would be Undyne or the Fun Gang (Kris, Susie and Ralsei).
Nah he totally could join in. Remember that cutscene on Meta Knight's ship where Peach was casually walking through explosions, brewing tea cups of tea for allies and opponents alike, and befriending a Game & Watch moments after they attacked? Well, Sans would fit in perfectly. I can envision Luigi running back and forth from monsters terrified, and then Sans is casually standing around every corner offering handshakes and hotdogs as Luigi screams and runs the other way again. Sans then makes them team up, and the first duo is created. A terrified Luigi and an unfazed Sans would be iconic. Also I can't imagine Sans fighting much either. He would likely walk up and try to make friends with the enemies, and if they turn hostile they'd crush Sans and leave a gigantic crater of broken rubble in their wake, only for the camera to pan away and Sans is just shrugging in the background. _Then_ he'd let his allies do the work for him. He'd just be there to make friends, have some good laughs, and force others to get along together.
Sans fights you in genocide because you are about to *end the entire world.* Bear in mind, he made a promise to keep the human safe, and Sans is the kind of guy to go to the infernal pits and back to keep a promise (provided he makes one in the first place), so given that between a breaking promise and allowing the destruction of the world, Sans opts to prevent the latter, he would *absolutely* face down a different world-ending threat that would show up, *especially* when there isn't *even* a promise in the way.
Tbh, I've come to see Chara as moreso like Susie from how their character is described fron Asriel's experiences, as for how they act in the genocide route I think it's moreso influenced by LV at some degree, considering LV it is described to change someone who has lots of it, and considering Chara says that the player and them are completely they gained the same LV as Frisk
The thing I always liked about Papyrus is how despite having a gigantic ego, he still encourages his friends and tries to help out. In his own mind it's closer to: "You can't be golden like me, but there is absolutely nothing wrong trying to reach the silver!" Edit: Honestly most of the characters, even Asgore I feel are genuinely good people but are put in horrible circumstances. Papyrus, Undyne and Sans are the exceptions but they are the ones with solid goals as well. Papyrus wants to be famous, Undyne wants to free monsterkind and Sans wants to fulfill a promise. Overall the more I think about it the more it feels like a lesson of 'How much do you want to do something.' I might be reaching but the game potrays Undyne, Sans and Papyrus in a generally good light because they are 100% dedicated to their goal but are also willing to give it up for the sake of their friends. Toriel, Asgore and Alphys are in a bit more of a negative light due to the consequences of going too far for that goal.
I feel the reason why people love Undertale is that everyone feels human. They may have flaws yet they feel endearing. Like how Sans is a fatalist who doesn't care for others but genuinely cares for you (if you're nice that is), Papyrus and Toriel. Toriel is a caring mother but she has frustrations against her ex husband Asgore for the loss of innocent children and overprotective to those who want to protect themselves. And even Mettaton who's probably the only "unjustifiable" of the monsters if you judge his actions especially his Neutral ending where he becomes a dictator he loves his fans and wants to make a difference, but his ego may have blinded him. Or how Asgore is a conflicting king and lost because of his actions of using violence to save Monsterkind with the loss of innocents. Yes even Chara my most conflcting character I ever see in media is not good nor evil. And speaking of Chara let's talk about Chara Dreemurr because they're probably the misunderstood based on writing and also the issues with people viewing him. The people who wish to eliminate Chara for being the one who "manipulated" Frisk to commit the No Mercy run or the people who defend Chara like if Chara is their holy god they must protect. So let's explain Chara Dreemurr, the most controversial character in Undertale and its fanbase. In my eyes, I originally felt Chara was pure evil all because of their actions towards their family. And how they dragged the Dremurr's into their mess. Originally I thought maybe Chara was misunderstood thanks to Fleur Marigold's essay titled, "Who Is The True Villain Of Undertale In Defense of Chara Dreemurr" but I do feel the video analyzing them made them too "good" in my opinion. A response video made by The Fiery Joker made an video essay on villainous characters becoming too sympathetic and that media is dangerous for allowing a tragic past or excuse to pass despite their actions being cruel. That villains who get away with it with a tragic story will make us excuse their actions too much that's it is a petty excuse, especially when they do it all over again. Now if I ever responded to both of their videos, I would say both of them are right and wrong. And let me explain them carefully. It's true Fleur Marigold's video on Chara misunderstood them by blaming the player for causing Frisk to do the No Mercy route, but in my argument I feel they might've defended Chara for their erasure of Earth too much. But as much as I agree with the Fiery Joker, that media needs to have the Freudian Excuse is No Excuse vibe but luckily we have media like that where some villains aren't forgiven for their actions. (High Revolutionary from GOTG Vol 3, Jack Horner from The Last Wish, DIO from JJBA, Belos from TOH, Nearly The Entire Cast of Bojack Horseman, Crimson from Helluva Boss, Mahito from JJK, etcetera.) Using Chara as an example is wrong because while it's true Chara isn't innocent their response to the Chara Misunderstood video essayist of defending Chara a bit harsh. Sorry I did like the essay he made and I agree with the message mostly, but to my eyes Marigold's argument on Chara is valid and while it didn't age well they shouldn't have been reduced as a "Chara Defender Who Loves Chara So Much". Yes Chara to him is inexcusable but what about other UT characters like Muffet, Mettaton, Flowey or Asgore's actions. Fiery Joker tries to say this but this is Undertale and if people despised Alphys even though she's most regretful of the cast, his argument kind of falls flat especially for Undertale's morality being complicated as well as other series that are complicated like most Ghibli's movies not having the traditional good vs evil. Undertale isn't about justification, it's about love and understand others. It's the video game version of Steven Universe! (joking) It doesn't help that Toby's writing decision was likely for Chara to be ambiguous and if you think Chara is this and that I don't mind people saying they're good or bad. However it comes to the point the forget that not everyone character is black and white, and Chara reduced to these moral tropes drive me insane to no end. So here's my take on Chara and agree or disagree. Chara is like the Player but unlike the Player they made a decision that ended up ruining their own life and cost of their family. I believe Chara did I enjoy the Dreemurrs but they wanted revenge against humankind so they slowly became more questionable like how they made Butterscotch Pie that made Asgore sick. They decided to trust in Asriel because they were the only one who cared and knew them. It's possible Chara hated humans possibly due to poor parenting or their family being toxic, so they ended up deciding to love Monsterkind...a little too much. So much so that I think Chara wanted humanity gone so that they can keep the Dreemurrs and live a haply life without any chaos or hate from man. I believe Chara is basically a dark foil to us the player. That if we love Undertale and its monsters, do we slowly become so attach it consumes us? That we love this thing so much we'll threaten others for not supporting what we like. After they failed and Asriel is gone, I imagine Chara being resentful and lost any hope. I think they were too caught up to swear vengeance against mankind they didn't feel care when Asriel passed away. Now for my view on Chara when they meet you after you're done with the No Mercy route. Chara basically feels connection. Care. Enjoyment over the monsters gone, yet at the same time they feel lost. Because that was only thing they have left. You took them away from them. I feel over the years as every children were lost, Chara became disillusioned by the world that he like Flowey (Asriel) treated everything like a game. They know the inevitable that every monster will fade away someday, and likely felt enjoyment when we commited this action yet they feel so lost they decided to destroy everything. Destroy everything is their new purpose now. So I feel Chara became this way because they're a child, a child doesn't know any better and because they possibly had a bad childhood Chara became a complicated mess of vengenace and resentment. Children are smart but they aren't fully developed and because of Chara made the family in disarray after Asriel is gone....they lost it all and its THEIR fault. Which is why Frisk and us are the opposite of Chara. We cared for monsterkibd and made everyone slowly connect, love, and facewith their problems head on. But for Chara because they wanted mankind erased their emotional baggage and the inability of prace caused them to snap and lose everything. They never learned of true love and only think of LEVEL OF VIOLENCE, and when the Dreemurrs tried to guide then to peace used their son for their personal vendetta against humans at the cost of everyone's lives. Chara is what happens when we let ourselves lose it and make things worse. And I feel Asriel may not like what Chara did but he never forget them supported them as a friend, that's why he thought Frisk and us was his friend. Because to him we and Frisk represent what Chara could've been...choose pacifism. Chara to me is a tragedy and that they're tragic because at least Flowey can return back to Asriel if Frisk can use their soul to help Asriel. Chara has noone now and whether you think they deserve their demise or not, I kind of pity them almost. (Also please do not attack Fleur Marigold and Fiery Joker. They made their essays years ago and please don't harass them for a single character....please...)
I always didn't like how the fandom considers Chara to be either a complete monster or a good person. Yes, Chara has good sides (for example, they tried to save monsters at the cost of their lives), but at the same time, Chara has a very... questionable sense of humor. Like when they put poisonous flowers in Asgore's pie
We don't actually know much about Chara, tbh. Only what we have, is just a small facts, which can be read in many angles and positions. I prefer to think what Chara sincerely desired the best future for the monsterkind, but barely knowing how to interact with other creatures, she manipulated Asriel and did some questionable things for her goals. It could affect Flowey's personality, and he started to act and talk quite like Chara would.
I just believe it was intentionally ambiguous so whatever the player sees The Fallen Child is what they are. Idk the years of debating have drained me.
@@1BeautifulDuck Nah, they had a reading level way to high to honestly make that mistake. Chara reading: "Two lovers over hells cauldron..." Also Chara reading: "Clearly this recipe requires butter cups."
@@MrGamernova I don’t think they knew that buttercups are poisonous. We see that they have an interest in botany through the water sausage flavor text, and the cause of that may be that they didn’t want what happened to Asgore to happen again, to anyone but themself.
Theres ONE character that I can say for certain is 100% pure evil, that is muffet, maybe she doesn't eat her pastries, but she makes them out of other spiders for other spiders to eat, she literately serves spiders for other spider cannibals to eat, was going to literately kill you and make you into food, which frisk is a CHILD, and in general muffet basically solely cares about money, she only let's you go because you didn't kill any spiders, which is superbly hypocritical
plus, if you don't immediately kill Muffet in the genocide route and let her dialogue run on, she'll say that Alphys tried to convince her to evacuate but Muffet refused and considered turning Alphys into a donut. She then tries to spare you once she learns you didn't kill any spiders, just a shit ton of monsters. Reason she's probably not in deltarune is because she's in a federal prison for various felonies lmao
.....not really.....if you don't spare her... in the Geno route..... it'll says 0 gold.....she really did try to save her family from being broke......I don't think if the donuts are really made out of spiders .........and there's alot of characters that threat us THAT way.....(Also Metaton told her that we being bad with spiders)....not the best mindset BUT NOT PURE EVIL....she really cares about her spider family.......... I don't talk about her behaviour....but in the boss fight we learned how the spiders in the ruins can't leave there.... because of how cold snowdin is .......also...that one scene after beating her(no mercy) is quite upsetting.....
Neat video! I think something crucial to morality in Undertale involving Flowey and the Chara we see at the end of the no mercy route is that they can’t really be judged in terms of morality. These two characters are intentionally paralleling and reflecting the player, especially Flowey, and trying to morally judge the player is a pretty fruitless endeavor.
Personally, I think Undertale is about understanding and compassion. Not necessarily about who’s justified and who’s not. Let me give you an example. Mettaton in my opinion is probably the most evil main character in Undertale. Wants to take Frisk’s soul to CROSS the barrier himself, not break it, all so he can entertain humans who’ll likely kill him. Admits it on live TV. He’s also not a good friend to Alphys, exposing her motives on live TV and not talking to her after she creates his body. Then he becomes a dictator in the king Mettaton ending. However, Mettaton still matters to people. Dorked made a great video on NPC reactions to major character deaths. Mettaton has by far the most changes. If I had killed Mettaton on my first playthrough: -Napstablook and Mettaton would’ve never reconnected (nor Shyren). -The MTT Resort employees would be out of a job. -The entire Underground would be left without an entertainer. -Papyrus would be robbed of his idol. Even if Mettaton does horrible things, and honestly, is just a plain bad person, even on Pacifist, he still matters to people. He still had the potential to have a positive impact, whether he intended to or not. Whether we like it or not, no matter how kind or cruel we are, we’re all still people. Also, I wish more fangames would let the player figure that out for themselves. Because in a lot of recent fangames (Undertale Yellow or Undershuffle Sans) the dialogue in battles becomes just a huge morality debate as well as exposition dump, which I feel like takes the fun out of a lot of battles and even characters in some cases because it’s just, in your face, you know? That probably doesn’t make sense, but hey, I don’t know how else I could’ve worded it. That’s a revelation about Undertale that I’ve come to recently, and it’s really effected my writing for my own AU. And I really want to show other people this perspective.
also in the king mettaton ending mettaton is very worried for alphys and he says "I TRIED TO GET ALPHYS TO HELP, BUT..SHE WAS NOWHERE",or something like that.
@@assholesツ Okay, you got me there. Honestly, it feels like Flowey just doesn’t play a major role that much aside from the beginning and the end. And the genocide run. Still, you got a point.
@@khaosinkorporated9493 ye, well all flowey does really is steal the human souls in the neutral and pacifist ending, and pretty much nothing in the genocide
So for Mettaton and Alphys, one other thing is that pretty much all of the conflict with Mettaton in Hotland was staged to make Alphys feel more confident in herself, and Mettaton was just going along with it. Frisk was never in any real danger until Mettaton started "going rogue" so to say, shuffling the CORE so Alphys can't help them navigate and hiring the CORE's random encounters to go after them (and maybe he put RG 01 & 02 and Muffet up to fighting them too). And the reason Mettaton "went rogue"? Because he wanted Frisk's SOUL so that he can save humankind from ASGORE and perform for humans on the Surface. I think this helps justify Mettaton even more! And for Alphys, keep in mind that in Genocide (also the Aborted Genocide Neutral Ending where she becomes queen), she also revealed the truth about the Amalgamates to everyone since she evacuated them into the True Lab. Suffice to say, this justifies her even more. Funnily enough, the events of Genocide help justify a lot of the characters. Toriel realizes you didn't need protecting. Papyrus shows his naive side, believing in you to the end. Undyne and Mettaton realize you're a threat to everyone on Earth, not just monsters. And they both fight you to try to save everyone (though Mettaton dies in one hit because you were just too strong at that point). Undyne really was a true hero. Sans finally stops being lazy and tries to get you to quit by fighting you using dirty tricks. And Alphys finally reveals the truth about the Amalgamates to everybody, and becomes a lot more confident in herself. Also, just a nitpick, but Sans doesn't really hate you for killing Toriel. He barely says anything about it, assuming she's just feeling sick (unless you kill Papyrus in which case he angrily reveals that he knows she's dead). Anyway, I love this video. Nothing is strictly black and white in games with well-rounded characters like Undertale's. I'm especially tired of people pretending that Chara is pure evil or pure good, as doing that ruins their character in a similar vein to how it ruins Asgore's. In making this video, you really did demonstrate your Basedness!
Papyrus isn't exactly selfish or anything like that, you can even skip his fight if you suck enough, he just doesn't have any friends, sans is noticeably more popular, and all Papyrus can confide in is a talking flower
something about how i feel about toriel leaving the throne and such: It’s understandable she would want to leave Asgore after what he announced, not arguing that. But people don’t understand that it’s not about just Asgore and her breaking apart, it’s the fact that she could’ve done better, like possibly trying to stop such things, not that I don’t personally believe she didn’t but it isn’t hinted to at all. It feels a bit wrong to leave your whole race at a time like that, after the ‘hope of humans and monsters’ died. After all, she could’ve tried to help her people. But then again, it’s understandable. Her children’s death impacted her in that such way, and people react differently to grief/grievous situations. Asgore: Definitely the most CLEAR grey (gray?) character, he’s done bad things, but it’s more of in a tragic sense. Deep down he is a good man, but you can’t excuse what he’s done, but understand them. That’s why Asgore feels well written. It doesn’t justify him, but makes him more understandable, while still allowing us to love him as a character. Flowey and Chara: Pure grey (gray?). Flowey’s perspective is that nothing literally has any purpose and that nothing matters due to the cosmic idea of resetting or timelines. He can’t even feel, and these reasons are why I feel Flowey is grey rather than pure evil. Chara is around the same things, bad ideas like hating humanity and potentially emotionally abusing Asriel, but there are clues that tell us that Chara was abused in some way shape or form, and that they really do love monster kind.
i've been a HUGE undertale fan, tho I wonder if I should make my own undertale content, and basically you're pretty much right abt ALMOST everything in my opinion
I agree with most of these points before watching the video. Id say that Frisk leans more towards good than true neutral, but still isnt just good. And Chara exists.
“There’s no truly evil character in Undertale.” Jerry: All jokes aside, YES! Thank you for making this video. I’ve seen way too many “Alphys bad” or “Toriel bad” or “Asgore good” takes and it really gets on my nerves, because… They’re not? Nor are they perfectly the opposite. Some people don’t seem to understand the existence of nuance… Looking forward to your Flowey analysis (I think you mentioned that, right?), your videos are really great. My opinion on Chara… Well, they were a manipulative person for sure. But their motives were definitely good, they just wanted to free monsterkind. And they sacrificed themself for it. If they really just wanted to kill humans, they could have taken Asriel’s soul, but they didn’t. Chara definitely hated humanity, but from what we know they likely have a good reason for that. I think they saw taking the lives of humans as necessary for monsterkind’s freedom. Post their death… Well, it really depends on your actions. If you follow narra-chara, they get to know a human in pacifist, and probably learn they’re not so bad. In genocide, I think they distance themself from monsters because of LOVE. Once they distance themself, it’s easy to basically just guide the human along. They develop the player’s mentality. So I’d rate them (goodness leve) around 65% pre-death, around 75% at the end of pacifist, and around 15% at the end of genocide.
Chara did take over Asriel to kill a human village. If you mean Chara could've killed Asriel and take his soul to do whatever they want with humanity, then it's probably because it's more troublesome to kill your own brother than poisoning yourself and getting your soul absorbed. Chara did want to free monsterkind, sure. And to eradicate the humankind out of spite. One doesn't cancel the other, the second one is an evil thing to do for sure no matter what that's also worsening Chara's character as a whole. Honestly I dunno how stubborn you must be to insist on convincing that Chara wanted to erase humans exceptionally because they wanted to free the monsters, and not because they also have a hatred for humans which exactly is the thing making their motives rather evil. And the fact Chara manipulated and fooled Asriel from the beginning, made him absorb their soul as a request to see village flowers again, hidden as an intention to do whatever they want is the key reason making this operation failure and making Chara's motives even worse imo.
@@Oleja2008the point he was trying to make was about how characters are morally grey. Chara isn’t perfect, nor are they a “good” person per say. They have some justified motives, but have done horrible things. That’s doesn’t mean they are pure evil (probably not what you are saying) but they aren’t that good. If that’s what you are saying, then I’m blind and stupid, and need some help, so don’t pay any mind to this if that’s the case.
@@Oleja2008I don't get all this debate around Chara, they're most definitely not evil just due to that, if that was the case Asgore would be evil due to the fact he murders children instead of absorbing one soul and leaving the underground. Alphys is evil because of the experiments she made on the monsters. But this is just not the case, because in Undertale morality matters and characters are intrisically complex, I won't deny that Chara trying to kill humans was definitely a bad thing, but the statement that Asriel was manipulated could easily be refuted if you try to look at their dialogues in another perspective.
@@Oleja2008The argument you gave about mentioning that Chara didn't kill Asriel (or anyone else) doesn't make sense, If they were the "PuRe 3v1l", you make them out to be, they would have done this, and if they didn't it's a plot hole.
I never dove deep into the uuh morality debates of the characters but when you said "these following characters are generally considered evil" and instantly followed up by saying undyne i was shocked lol, doesnt she like.... protect the whole underground?
16:50 I think Chara was good, they just suffered mental illnesses. The Faded Ribbon saying that if you are cuter monsters will not hit that hard, if you take it in a theoretical way, it implies Chara might have known people that to them, WERE MONSTERS, like, Chara was abused on the surface-monsters! The only one they trusted enough to even talk about their problems with, was Asriel because they trusted him due to how close the two were, this is also why they discussed the plan after accidentally poisoning Asgore, and poisoned themself to spare the other Dreemurrs to cross the barrier, and due to not knowing power would be split, due to Asriel agreeing on his own accord, Chara was entrusting ASRIEL with the task of willingly killing six humans. Chara also probably only tried to urge Asriel to kill more in self defense because Asriel was dying! Also, after Chara kills Sans and Asgore for you, the player gets control back and has to press enter to kill Flowey, which means Chara *hesitated* and gives you one last chance to reconsider! Overall, Chara was a good person, but like Asriel said, they weren’t the greatest person.
The literal whole point of Undertale is showing kindness to people by understanding The monsters are completely different from you and seemingly attack you without reason, but thinking about it from their perspective, they’re the oppressed people who haven’t caught a break, so showing mercy is the least you can do, especially since you’re significantly more powerful and have the power to do so, even on an individual basis, the most reprehensible character, Flowey, is only the way he is because of circumstances out of his control (him lacking a soul). In this sense, I would say no character in Undertale is really evil, and more that the place you’re in is full of people who have been dealt an unjustly bad hand and understandably want to do what they can to make tomorrow a better day, even if those actions would seem cruel and unjust from a perspective that hasn’t been through the misery that they have.
Personally I'd consider Chara a neutral character? Their morality shifts depending on what Frisk/the Player wants to do. In Genocide, they ultimately just point you in the right direction and finish what you started at the very end to make a point. In other routes they're neutral, or maybe even leaning slightly towards good in True Pacifist. If you subscribe to the "Chara is the Narrator" theory, there's also some evidence that the killing of certain monsters disturbs them in non-Genocide routes--particilarly during Undyne's neutral death, which has some pretty freaked out dialogue. They definitely don't have the best *reasons* for most of their actions, but neither do, like, half the characters in Undertale.
@@NOTaNaBC "Mmy human soul." "My determination" "They were not mine, but YOURS." Chara explicitly telling you that you revived them the moment you fell.
@@SadIsMe1055 Don't you see the contradiction? This phrase appears in Toriel's house and only on Genocide. That is, it does not prove that Chara was revived exactly when we fell
I will never understand how a fandom can look at a game where one of the central themes is "hey, none of these characters are black/white, they're literally all incredibly flawed and it's up to you and your willingness to show compassion to set them on the right track" and then that same fandom can look at characters like Chara and say "oh hey, pure evil" or Asriel, Papyrus or Toriel and say "oh hey, ultimate good". Love this game but it genuinely baffles me how terribly it gets misunderstood by its biggest fans
I don't think we ever set anyone on the right track tho, other than Undyne, Alphys, Mettaton and Flowey, we don't do anything for anyone else, Toriel on her own realized "oh maybe I should be with the human, and Asgore doesn't deserve to become dust" by thinking for some time (you could say we helped her by sparing her but... c'mon that's just being a person), Papyrus is still Papyrus, Sans is still Sans, and Asgore still is Asgore We helped 4/8 of the main cast at least, the other 4 really didn't change anything from the start of the game
I feel like the complexity of morality and character depth in Undertale would make it overlap very well with other complex works of fiction that have characters which similarly fall upon shades of grey. One that comes to mind is Animorphs.
I think you forgot something major with the Mettaton and Alphys portion, all the times Mettaton “tried to kill you” were all because of Alphys’ orders, he never actually tried to kill you (until he became EX anyway and revealed that truth), Alphys just wanted him to get in your way so she could prove that she is useful to you, and I could be wrong on this last point because I haven’t failed a MTT Minigame in ages, but I don’t think failing any of them actually kills you
Mettaton Did reveal it was his own choice for wanting to kill you but he has Understable reason, he believes Asgore was corrupt and even if Monster do get free, he believes it won't give monster a peace needed, when Asgore has been heavily implied once he gather 7 humans soul, another war will occur (that is until Frisk arrived and likely give him change of plan), Mettaton just doing what he believe is right which is understandable because while we do know what Asgore is like, not everyone has a chance to meet the king himself and have deep conversation with him to understand his motive and goal
i hop into the video and i see undyne and im like "woah my favorite character!!" and then i see "shes also probaly the most racist character in the game" wow. i wasnt ready for that...
What I don't get is Toriel was treated as a Angel when we literally see her abandoned her people and Asgore because she had a bias towards humans more than her own race, have her plan both hypocritical and no worse than Asgore, and have her overbearing.
The key factor here imo is that even if you disagree with the character's actions, you can at least understand them. Toriel and asgore were both in an impossible situation neither of them could truly navigate through. Sans and flowey are far too aware of their (un)limited existance. Papyrus gets a surpising amount of disrespect from his own friends. Undyne was practically indoctrinated. Alphys was positioned into unknown territory and payed the price with her conscience, and mettaton was far too focused on bigger things over their friends. Does that mean you have to like them? No. But i see so many people respond to these types of complex analyses meant to disprove misconceptions with that exact rhetoric and it kind of misses the point? It's like sure, toriel was going through just as much grief as asgore and with a conflicting set of principles as well, and likely blames herself every day for what happened to all the children only fueling her possesive attitude, But she was kind of a hypocrite about it so she's the worst person in the underground. You can dislike characters overall while also understanding where they're coming from.
Chara is not good, evil, or neutral. They are the embodiment of DETERMINATION. Like DETERMINATION, which can be used to take any path, Chara can take any path. However, they are somewhat selfish. They want your soul so they can take control and choose their own path instead of relying on you to choose for them.
the only real reason anyone hates alphys is pacafist/neutrel run she wont stop interupting your playthrough with constant messages... thats it, no other reason. you cant deny it!
i may be wrong, but i recall that if you do the no mercy route over and over again, chara will try to reason with the player to do another route, which implies that while they were awakened by death, they dont really get enjoyment from it, its more so they want complete control over frisk's soul to feel alive again, and if killing everyone and restarting everything will do, so be it, and thus making the no mercy route more so a ritual to awaken them
I would love to see Flowey analysis. But i think, all Dreemurr's family deserve it, they are a reason of all of this in the end. Thanks for such an interesting video, it brings some fuel for thoughts.
My thing is, just because characters are capable of good doesn't mean they will be. Some people in this world are just horrible, cruel people, maybe due to past issues or maybe because they grew up into the kind of person who enjoys being that way. It feels like so many villains today have to be sympathetic and nuanced to the point of having more depth than the protagonists. But sometimes we have characters like King, who's just a straight up bully: unreasonable, treacherous and cruel. He can't be dealt with in a normal way, all methods of kindness are repaid with more evil. His only redeeming quality is that he isn't THAT awful to his son. (maybe?) Flowey could've been like that if not for the 180 he makes at the end of the pacifist route. Just kinda goes "oh alright I guess I'm not evil anymore haha" despite killing countless people countless times including you, and I get that's the idea of mercy but that's never really brought up there or even a theme, mercy in UT is more of a refusal to fight rather than letting go and forgiving. On a different moral note, I find it funny how Undyne is perfectly ok with killing you and/or other kids, even if you've done absolutely nothing wrong. But as soon as you kill ONE monster, who depending on the situation in this point of the game is either an idiot or actively trying to kill you, suddenly you're the bad guy and she wants nothing to do with you. Pinnacle of justice.
Also, in terms of Alphys, I think her flaws are more than just creating the amalgamates. She: hired monsters to kill you, spied on you (that part was part of her job but given she didn't really do much of the rest of her duties, yeah) used Mettaton and you to get closer to Undyne, lied to you and Undyne numerous times (set up stuff in the CORE to seem like your friend or lied about human things to looker cooler to Undyne) as well to as the families of the amalgamates. Had she told the truth about the amalgamates, both they and their families would've gone through a lot less suffering. But her hiding the truth wasn't about protecting others, it was about her and what others would think. Her telling the truth is important because she built up a habit of telling lies to get by. She hides during the events of the Geno route, maybe evacuating people but doing nothing whatsoever in her power to stop you. She didn't upgrade Mettaton for this, NEO was the original build. She could've sent out the amalgamates, who are completely invincible, or actually warned Asgore about you, or done anything else to stop you! She's not an outright malicious character but she's not good, either. I feel like Toby sees her better than how she actually comes off, given how she's treated by the story.
"hired monsters to kill you," No? Mettaton is the one who hired people to kill us, on his own. Alphys has nothing to do with that. "spied on you (that part was part of her job but given she didn't really do much of the rest of her duties, yeah" You says that she don't do her job, but then blame for doing her job...? "used Mettaton and you to get closer to Undyne" What the heck are you even talking about? "set up stuff in the CORE " She did nothing in the CORE. All that was Mettaton. "She hides during the events of the Geno route, maybe evacuating people" That's not "maybe", we know that she evacuated people. " She didn't upgrade Mettaton for this" She wouldn't have time to do that and evacuate everyone at the same time. "or actually warned Asgore about you" We know nothing about why Asgore wasn't informed. Maybe she tried to warn him, but he never answered. Or maybe Flowey did something to stop her.
"demonize her for leaving asgore" No, its more because she just ditched the entire kingdom and left it without a queen, at random, which actually *may* have lead to asgore furthering the "we gotta kill all humans" ordeal due to the fact that despair would have largely increased
The demonization of chara needs to be studied i dont think ive seen a community go this far into making a charachter a demon out of like 5 dialogues and one action I think chara had good intentions just didnt have the best ways of expressing them
Actually, Chara has a lot more dialogues and bad actions in no mercy, everyone just ignores them because they either don't know, or because they go against their point. Example: Chara actively _telling_ you how to kill Sans. (Check dialogue for Sans after he dodges for the first time) Chara is _generally_ good pre-death and in pacifist/neutral, but if you actually analyze all of the no mercy narration dialogues and other details from a non-biased perspective, you'll realize quickly that no mercy timeline Chara is the closest thing the game has to a pure evil character. (Unless you deny narachara even in no mercy but in that context Chara only has a bit more dialogue and background than _Gaster_ so there's not much to analyze)
i'd be very interested to see your thoughts on the undertale yellow characters, specifially on if the "justice" in the Vengeance route is justified or not
Topic with an obvious answer. Vengeance isn't justified since almost every monster isn't to blame and they deserve better. Clover doesn't even know what happens to him on different routes, so he doesn't have personal reasons as well (not like anybody forced him to give his soul on pacifist route either) About characters, even about the most arguable ones, it doesn't sum into much too. Starlo rather is just a nice guy who had a tantrum that could be resulted in Clover's death. Funni. His "lawlessness" on Wild East doesn't feel much wrong either lol. His reaction to Ceroba's death is kinda wrong, just failed protecting Clover & Ceroba both, but now yapping to Clover though he was a victim, well done. Maybe understandable, though. Ceroba is just like Starlo, but had a more important reason though it's not understandable. She's more to blame than Starlo, but seems to be better morally.
@@Oleja2008 True, most monsters had nothing directly to do with the five humans being killed but that’s not to say they weren’t opposed to them dying in the first place. Monsterkind as a whole are all seemingly fine with the humans being used for Asgore to become a God and dominate the surface. To me the Vengeance route in yellow seems like karma coming back to bite the monsters for the five humans, and that is why Clover actually gets to succeed (compared to regular undertale where the Player’s actions awaken a demon that erases them).
@@thunder2275 idk, monsters' treatment depends on a killed human specifically. Basically Clover once again, in pacifist route monsters loved him and wouldn't want him dead. I'm not really sure how the presence of justice's definition and the birth of demon are connected.
Another thing about Alphys is that the families consented to the experiments and she was ordered by Asgore to do the experiments to figure out a potential way to escape the barrier. The whole thing was basically just like donating a person's body to science except it just happened to go horribly wrong. The only thing that Alphys did wrong that was kind of her fault was not telling the families sooner but that wasn't entirely her fault because of her severe anxiety issues.
I was considering commenting this myself. Blaming Alphys in this way really doesn't sit right with me. It's not like Alphys went about the experiments unethically or in a "wrong" way for as far as we know, right? She injected determination into willing subjects and it went bad. And I also think the whole not telling anyone thing isn't even just her anxiety, but really a lot of people would be afraid to talk about something like this if they were in Alphys' shoes. "Hey guys so your family member's been mutated into a zombie-like eldritch horror merged with random other minds and people oopsies" :/ And she still came clean in the end. Alphys hate boggles my mind
@@commonbridge4735 Yeah even without dealing with mental illness owning up to something like this is EXTREMELY hard for most people. Anyone who genuinely hates Alphys most likely just doesn't understand her there really aren't any other reasons to dislike her.
chara is hyper-chaotic neutral, or a psychopath who doesn't realize they are one. but then again chara was shown time and time again to be linked with frisk. also! based_guy could you watch the deltarune-undertale theory about sans? there is an interesting one. about sans
People do not demonize Toriel for leaving Asgore, they demonize her for leaving the people of the Undergound (while we can see it, they are still her people)
i would count chara and resurrected chara as 2 different people atleast when it comes to morality.we learn that love is based on your williness to hurt others and just like the power determation is connected to the feeling of determination exp and love can change some one moral.we even see this with frisk,the stick provide evidence that frisk is good but in the genocide run as it continues frisk becomes more sadistic and even smile when they encounter someone.chara is connected to frisk and it likely the same thing happened to them
i came to this comment section for 1 request. make another part of "UFS VS ULC in a musical battle" and please add the "wild west swap sans skin" theme because it is the biggest banger actual fair fight for server lining, possibly
Going back to this video, Mettaton literally cuts ties with Alphys as soon as he was fully finished. And even when he decided to make a promise to Alphys, he broke it durning his real fight. He’s a pretty big asshole in conclusion. *Edit* - On a side note to Alphys, she was pressured by Asgore to finish both Mettaton and her Determination Injecting. Asgore didn’t even check up on her unlike Toriel who checked up on her in the Neutral Pacifist endings. Mettaton also reveals he was going to apologise to Alphys in the King Mettaton ending. I guess that’s good?
Completely missed basically the main plot of Alphys and Mettaton, somehow. Mettaton isn't actually trying to murder you for the most part, Alphys recruited him to stage everything so she seems like a valuable person as she assists you (and when you/she fails, Mettaton typically saved the situation). Mettaton goes off the script at Core though, now actually trying to kill you as what he calls a "plot twist" for the sake of a good show.
I mean I understand why Papyrus wanted to captured the human and it's quite understandable on what he's a bit selfish because think about it in his own shoes he's lonely basically has no friends You could argue undying and Sans are his friends but then again in the game undyne and papyrus wasn't really that close to begin with until frisk came and pretty much Sans was his only friend. and in the game it literally said he's "forgettable" so I understand why he wants to capture the human badly And according to Sans he says Papyrus was down lately (most likely his loneliness) so it's obviously he would take the chance to capture the human.
Each character in Undertale is at best a lighter shade of grey, and at worst a darker shade of grey. Unfortunately, common people will either see all white or all black. "People are either painted white or painted black," as I've heard in the past. If someone doesn't like a character, none of the good matters. If someone *does* like a character, none of the bad matters. It's honestly frustrating to see *wherever* this kind of thinking pops up.
My opinion Frisk - pure neutral (bc all the difference choices) Nabstablook - true neutral Toriel - a little selfish but isn't fully evil. Sans - neutral yet isn't exactly that smart. Papyrus - good. Isn't evil and has no malicious intents. It was flowey who tricked him. He is overly prideful and completely gullible. Think If you mixed silver the hedgehog's naivety with sonic's ego. Undyne - good but she was only following orders. The only willingly malicious thing she did was accidentally set her house on fire. Mad dummy/ mad mew mew - needs some anger management and therapy. Alphys - a clumsy nerd who actually makes mistakes.. her only sin is lying and hiding the truth. I kinda get it because she doesn't want people to think so little of her. Mettaton - he is egotistical and did go murder crazy against the player.. however her does care for his audience in pacifist after you win. He goes under lawful neutral for these reasons. If the genocide route proves anything. He wants to give his audience a show they won't forget. I get alphys screwed up and accidentally focused too much on attack and so little on defense. Muffet - evil.... she is the one who should definitely go to jail because she literally commits acts of cannibalism. I get she was made as the roles being reversed but her leaving the gate way open in the genocide route all for no reason... that's obserd! She could have sealed the gate way off yet she didn't.. what the actual hell!? Asgore - he is a broken type of antagonist similar to shadow. I actually feel bad for him and generally believe if he did live in the neutral route after you spared him. He'd make a pretty kind dad. Flowey - if you separate flowey and asriel. Flowey is pure evil. There's no way you can consider he is phyco... the no soul really adds to this.. meaning if asriel had no soul... then he'd end up like flowey. However the genocide route changes this... Asriel - he is someone who regrets what he had done as flowey in pacifist and does show more in genocide yet genuinely feels like he was upset. Suffered an immortal life with no soul is definitely a fate worse than death. Chara - they're chaotic neutral which is what I gathered from the tapes. They're a lil weirdo but hey.. I don't think all weirdo folk are evil.. chara pre death was the biggest example.
Btw I'm an undyne fan. She is a badass yet she is the one character you cant call evil. More so chaotic good. She is funny and chaotic yet she does have boundaries.
I think Chara was not a good person, but not chaotically evil. They only deleted the world because you brought them back to life with your increasing levels. They saw that you basically destroyed everything they ever cared about, and chose to demolish the rest of it as a punishment. To leave you in the _void_
Bro really wanted to get recommendations and used everything he had. xd (I liked your video, because you talked about many characters, that the fandom didn't understand, and 100% described them as good/evil, such as Chara, Flowey or Papyrus. I like Chara as a character, because he/she told the player, "This is your limit, bro, and you can't keep wreaking havoc, so go away and never come back to this world, and if he comes back and becomes a pacifist, the player will see that one person will forever remember his past, and he won't be able to change it.")
Oh....that was truly a very good video.... your analysis were great.......i almost...catch something in my eye when...you mentioned Asgore.....he said that he and Toriel will take care of Frisk as long as they're in the underground.....which is quite sad.........would Toriel even give him another chance after what happened...? He's deep down just a broken father.... that's just...sad...so sad...it almost makes me want an ending where Frisk can stay down there with...him and Toriel (true pacifist duh)...the fact that he will....do THAT in...a second natrual route when flowey does not interfere is just....oh god.............(Although it wasn't a very...nice decision spacially in front a CHILD) i guess....he really couldn't take it any longer huh..?
Also about Sans.......WHY WOULD HE BADTOM™ US WHERE WE STAND!?!? (Yeah he's REALLY NATURAL BUT...) ...but...would he do that because Frisk is a human...or...HE KNOWS... although he admitted that he did considered Frisk as a friend in Geno route......the way he fights...like...HE KNOWS....not everything...BUT HE KNOWS.... THERE'S ALSO ONE THING THAT, I BARELY SEE ANYBODY TALK ABOUT, in Geno route Undyne fought for the whole earth both humans and monsters in ("human....no whatever you are") ahhh dialogue...is this just because of our power..?(Frisk is after all just a child so that's understandable) BUT NO, I saw alot of memes about Geno route Asgore... HOWEVER not only absorbing the humans' souls to fight us was very out of his personality........I think he did not recnogize us as a human....ok...Frisk is literally -_- always, that's how we see them....but...what if the other monsters see them differently in Geno route!? (This one really reminds me of the game 'OFF') BUT THAT'S TRULY VERY VERY INTERESTING TO THINK ABOUT
6:15 No he doesn't? He says right before his fight that that was all just an act he went along with. He and Alphys agreed to do it because it was mutually beneficial: Alphys got her facade of a hero, Mettaton got dramatic content. It's only right before his true fight that he decides to give that up in favor of a different goal. It was still a bad agreement on both ends, but not half so bad as you make it out to be. Additionally, in the Mettaton EX fight, he shows a more selfless reason to kill you: "But if I get your soul, I can stop Asgore's plan! I can save humanity from destruction!" and, later on, "Enough of this, do you really want humanity to perish?! Or do you just believe in yourself that much?"
Good video, but I think I disagree with a few points. First Toriel, I think you should mentioned that she abandoned the kingdom (reminder that she was the queen) in a really bad moment, like its not only that she divorced Asgore, is that she completely cut off with her whole race aside from a few people that live on the Ruins (that were scared of her by the way, that isnt a good look). Second I think Sans is on the good side and not true neutral, first of all I never took that menace he tells us seriously, like Sans never looks like that type of guy, but most importantly and I think you should've added is that the reasons Sans doesnt care to stop you on neutral routes is because he knows everything is going to be reset, he hates you with all his guts and if he didnt knew about our power he would end uh right there, but he knows it itsnt worthy because at any moment all could be restored. Now unto Undyne, I dont know how you were able to say ALL that about her and then clasify her as "neutral chaotic", come on she is clearly good chaotic. You literally explained everything made sense within her thoughts and the logic of the situation they were in. Onto Mettaton, it was a fairly nice section, but you should added the whole King Mettaton neutral ending debacle (which by the way it happens after the whole "redemption" he has at the end of his fight). He quite literally brainwashes the whole Underground and makes himself ultimate dictator, yeah he put on an Alphys statue and all that, but its clear he took the whole being adored by his fans too much to the point of makind everyone's lifes revolve under him, I guess at least Papyrus was happy.... I guess. And finally Chara well... destroying an already broken world really? The Underground has for sure at very least hundreds of inhabitants, very likealy in the thousands by Mettaton ratings, we kill "only" (is still a lot of course) a bit above 100, assuming the least case Chara killed ten times more than us to "punish" us, what the hell. Imagine I steal a phone and my punishment is watching someone else steal a bank, like whats the point. Also its pretty clear Chara had something planned for Souless Pacifist, is certainly not just a reminder of what yo done (like it is of course but there is more to it) and they had very probably something nefarious in mine, probably ending humanity type of deal. For the rest of charcters I didnt mention I agree for the most part.
Dude if I was Toriel I'd divorce his bitch ass too. My thought process would be : My human child died, and my monster child absorbed their soul and then also died. My husband declares war on humanity??? And my people (who loved the human child) supported them??????? You also have to keep in mind that Toriel probably wasn't able to change the minds of her people back when Chara/Asriel died and so left, we know she didn't leave immediately due to Asgore's dialogue after defeating him and she does the same thing in a lot of neutral endings when she can't change monsterkind's opinions on hunting humans. Honestly, Toriel's worst flaw is her inaction, she could have protected the other 6 humans that fell and just refused to.
3:46 I disagree. Papyrus tries his best to please everyone and not make waves while also pursuing his own ambitions, but he just doesn't think ahead at all, which is kind of a failure of responsibility. He doesn't think about the pain the shock maze and color puzzle might cause, he doesn't think about what will happen if he captures you, he doesn't even realize the immorality of the gauntlet of deadly terror until moments before he's about to activate it! Furthermore, he doesn't really have a backbone, trying to deceive Undyne in waterfall rather than telling her to her face that she's in the wrong.
I believe that pre-rebirth chara is at least neutral. Because I dont think neither Asriel nor Chara know that they will split control in the body. The only reason we know about this is asriel personal experience. So when chara sacrificed themself, the plan was really to get 6 human souls and break the barrier which was stated by asriel. This also means Chara is willing to sacrifice themself for monsterkind. I mean, the buttercups accident is still pretty questionable but I still believe it was an accident. Their hate of humanity might also be justified, I mean they did fall down into the mountain where no one returns with not good reasons. And the line that Asriel said, not the greatest doesn't mean that they are bad, but I still question if they are good. So I think its at least neutral. Post-rebirth on the other hand is like more complex and I dont want touch it but I still think they are neutral, even a little bit more to the good(except for you know, the no-mercy route).
People forgot the the Frisk isn't Frisk in any route except in the end of True Pacifist and Hard mode. If not then it isn't Undertale, it is Glitchtale.
toriel only left asgore because he didn't immediately go out and kill more humans to open the barrier. how do people keep missing this very obvious and spelled out fact mettaton was only pretending to try and kill you up until the core, before he apparently decided that what he wanted more was fame and Asgore declared war in a fit of rage, sure, but he also realized basically immediately that he didn't actually want to do this, which is why he decided to bide his time and only kill the fallen humans, instead of breaking out (see above) Toriel is objectively the least moral character on this list because of that. The motherliness is selfish coping, she's generally deceptive about what life is really like outside the ruins, and she left her husband over what is essentially just damage control on what would have been a big mistake in the heat of the moment. Still not mega evil but the safest character doesn't have to be the most morally good character. Chara exists as a stand in for you (you use your chosen name), and it's basically only when you reach the highest extreme that the character takes on its own life and decides to finish what you eagerly started. You are your own version of Chara, until you aren't.
For Flowey, I understand his circumstances but I really don't like him. Something I find interesting is how in the Genocide route he's clearly capable of feeling regret, so it makes me confused on really how emotionless he is. But regardless, even if he is emotionless and insane, that doesn't mean that he's really a good person. Asriel is a good person, (albeit I do think the community is too rude to people who can't forgive him, since people don't owe immediate forgiveness to people and that's something that Asriel also understands) but as Flowey, he isn't really a very good person purely by the number of times he's tortured these characters and the insane amount of suffering he inflicted. Flowey is pure evil due to not having a soul, but Asriel isn't. I think they should be separated and judged as two different people with how insanely different Asriel without a soul is versus Asriel with his soul.
Toriel: For me, it depends on whether or not she ever tried to talk Asgore out of his decision before she left. If she did, it's hard to call her culpable. If not, then she made a rash decision in my opinion. She felt the same grief losing both of their children, and it is made clear in the game she did most of the ruling. If she didn't try to reason with Asgore, she would have left a grieving, unstable man in charge, and her departure threw the Underground into more despair. If she did try to reason with him, then she did all she could on her front. Politically, the citizens probably woudn't have listened to her stance. Everything you say regarding her treatment of Frisk makes sense, too. Sans: Became aware of a temporal disturbance that kept them all trapped underground. Since he doesn't know about Flowey in your time with him, he can only conclude it's all been you. He simply makes the most of his situation with his brother, and unable to motivate himself for much of anything else. Yet he still can't help but care about morality and promises. Though, for someone always watching, he does little to stop you from killing anyone, only stepping in in the last minute, probably due to figuring it would all reset anyways. Papyrus: Hardworking and friendly, but could REALLY stand to humble himself a bit. Undyne: Angry with mankind, needs to be reminded that whether monster or human, people are individuals. Mettaton: Wants to keep Asgore from wiping out humanity (not knowing Asgore doesn't really want that). Gets carried away with stardom and his ambitions though, leaving Naptablook behind and getting murderous on a human child. Charismatic with soft spots, but REALLY needs some self-control. Alphys: Thought she was helping, unknowingly dragged innocents into a nightmarish situation. Due to monsters turning to dust, getting samples to test DT on separate from the person themselves may have not been an option. Still, she never imagined that monster's structurally melt with too much DT. Scared and guilty, she didn't want their families to see them, fearing their responses. A poor judgement, perhaps even cowardly, but gets the push she needs to come clean. Asgore: Made a promise he regrets. Has a whole kingdoms hopes and dreams riding on his shoulders. And if it is true that every human that came down happened to be children, all the more salt in the wound. A sensitive, heart-broken man who stayed true to a terrible promise, no matter how much he may not have wanted to. Flowey/Asriel: Could have whole book on him. Through trauma and literal loss of soul, became unable to connect with anyone. Not who he used to be with no way to go back. Despite all this, he still made his own choices.
I would say Asgore is just a very normal guy who have the responsibility of all monster kind,he isn't a very great king,but that doesn't mean he's bad,he just shouldn't handle that much responsibility
I personally disagree on Frisk being a vessel because although it is kinda true, Frisk has been hinted at having their own personality throughout the game. Frisk is shown to have a childlike mentality of wanting to have fun at all costs even if they do something bad (prob because they’re a child). We know they lack fear, they have a strong fighting spirit (Undyne’s dialouge), & they’re very unserious. Also, (& sorry if I asked this before & I forgot), but can you make a video about your thoughts on Ink Sans (Fanon / The Fangame OP version of him, Canon ver by COMYET on Tumblr, Underverse Ink, etc?)
I dont know if ill give ink his own video but when ill be talking about underverse and "op" sanses he will definitely be one of the most talked about chars
I wouldn't say Frisk lacks fear, when approaching the shower in the True Lab, they're movements become sluggish, and when moving away from it while the curtain is still drawn, they immediately gtfo
@@Magma-Idiot-2001 I think that Frisk does lack fear (from right before the Omega Flowey fight where Frisk approaches Flowey without the player doing so), but they’re not completely fearless.
1:46 Totally disagree, she doesn't do nothing to the monsterkind and trap all non ghosts on the ruins, she is a bad mother since she let 8/9 children that she took care die and she demonizes Asgore for doing the bare minimum as a king, the Ruins is the Ruins because underground was collapsing, a king should not let his people be extinct, collecting human souls is the only and using only one soul to get more isn't a good idea as we saw in Asriel case
I'd disagree, he has control. But that's what makes him interesting. Asriel is commonly compared to the masked man of mother 3, but I'd say they're pretty different. It's pretty clear that the masked man lost nearly all his free will some time after the 3 year skip. But Asriel still has free will. He has tons of it, he could destroy and create save files 'n' what not. He just lost a part of himself, and ended up becoming a sociopath. After losing his empathy and becoming immortal, he eventually got tired of being satisfied by nothing, and started playing around with the timeline, eventually becoming sadistic. The shit talking serial killer is the same boy we hug at the end of pacifist, just bored and insane.
"Is char evil?"
"Is char good?"
No, those are strings, char is a single data bit.
that's true
No, char is a byte.
Erm, chars make up... STRINGS????
Oh my god...
Undertale morality is "if you tiny skeleton, you are most popular character"
This is correct
Yep or "if you see two. skeletons one are small the other one is bigger trust"
If you design a game where a skeleton is stronger than me but dies faster than me you are praised for making videogames for eight years.
@@gamertypeawesomeIf skeleton you are praised
@@gamertypeawesomestronger than you (undertale parody) reference???
I feel the best way to analyze Chara and Flowey at the end of the day is just as mirrors to the player. Flowey, like the player, has torn the world apart countless times just to see each outcome, and Chara’s erasing of this world to move on to the next is a clever way of saying “we’ve reached the end of the game. Let’s play a different game like [insert video game]”. You’ve literally reached the end of the game; there’s nothing left to discover.
Chara literally saying:
"Let's go play Minecraft and torture villagers!☺"
LETS GO GAMB-
@@theguywhodidnotasklol BEEB BEEB ❌
@@Koshara_is_derevni"ay this shit starting to get mid, let's go play modded minecraft."
(And so Frisk spent the rest of their days playing every combination of mods out there by the suggestion of Chara.)
@@Napsta-blook22OH DANG IT
“She’s probably the most racist character in the game, which is reasonable.”
3:17 correction: in the neutral endings, sans doesn’t outright say he hates us. He does speculate that “maybe she’s not feeling well..?” but adds on to that if Papyrus is killed where he says “or maybe she’s not feeling anything at all?” So he only outright admits anger in any neutral ending where you kill Pap (unless you got the Dog ending of course and maybe the MTT ending)
If anything he DOES hate you for it, but just says that she's not feeling well likely because Papyrus is in the Room and afaik he pretty much never mentions Death when Papyrus is around.
so even if he doesn't outright say he hates frisk it's made pretty clear he does
There's something I don't like about D&D's character alignment system, how it often reduces multi-faceted characters to one or basic tropes.
Undertale is a good example of that. If we were to follow the alignment system, pretty much more than half of the characters would fall under True and Chaotic Neutral. It removes certain layers of complexity that character has such as specific personality traits, some of their actions and how they're interpreted in the world they're in, reducing them to a basic character aligned to a very specific trope. Such as, "Sans is the judge", "Asgore is the misunderstood king", "Chara is the result of your actions", not as if those are 100% wrong, but there's always more than just that.
alignment chart doesn't reduce no bro.
Especially when you extend it out.
6:00 Sadly it's not canon but what I liked that in a fanmade Mettaton Neo fight he said the reason that he didn't called Asgore to absorb the 6 human souls is because he knew that Asgore would destroy the humanity.
Actually Mettaton was the saviour of the humanity.
mettaton's rank: C+
ah I see what you did there, "C++", good one
Sans actually DOES protect you. Him sleeping distracts Undyne in her chase, giving you more time to escape, he follows you around to keep an eye on you, and he never WAS gonna attack you, he's too lazy.
Also in a phone call, u find out that he lies to Undyne about there being no human. Risking his job. And/or etc.
He don't know if he would have killed u or not w/o the promise though, what he said does make it seem like he would imo, but we don't know for sure if he would or not.
Sans does protect u though, yeah, agreed. Though, sometimes he does so on technicalities (like, knowing about ur time powers, so u will be "fine" even if u die probably), and/or doesn't care as much anymore, due to nihilism and/or etc. to protect u as well as he could.
But besides the thing u mentioned, the thing I mentioned above. He also gives tips, doesn't kill u in the first place or try to capture u, like a decent amount of monsters do (though, some are doing it by accident, because magic is just how monsters express themselves), even though he is a sentry.
Etc.
Sans is defin. morally gray/ambiguous. But he finds promises very important.
I personally think that Chara's personality depends on Frisk's actions or rather on the route that we, the player, take since we must keep in mind that even though we are in control, apparently Frisk's personality does change after everything like for example when he walks to attack monster kid in the geno he does it on his own but it is an effect of what we forced him to do before
It’s like reconstructing a being from the atoms of its corpse. A very, very difficult process that has a very low chance of accurately reproducing the specimen.
Undertale is so neatly written that no character is 100% good nor bad, they have so much depth
I dare to say Mettaton is one of the worst characters morally due to his neutral ending, i cant excuse becoming a dictator and forcing everyone to worship him
And yet even then, his morality isn't completely vile. He's always had the dream of being an icon, someone to be inspired by, so when he gets the chance, he takes it so as to be the best entertainer out there. He's so caught up in the thrill of entertainment that he hardly considers being a good person until large events force him to.(Ex: Alphys implied suicide).
Not saying you're wrong, you definitely aren't, but it's a testiment to how solid Toby's writing is
@@mistahmcmuffin What i'm thinking is that as someone who focuses his life on entertaiment, he has no idea how to be a ruler. He doesn't know any better than to turn everyone into his worshippers
Tbf this neutral ending is after he, who cleary know nothing about how to rule (and he knows that, he tried to ask Alphys for help but... Alphys was no longer there) and just lost his best (and probably only) friend, just got put into power because there were litterally no one else. No wonder that turned out badly.
But at the same time this is the same guy who put his life on the line to save everyone in geno.
Counterpoint: Jerry
@@ilikecats24-ct5nx Very well said, although I think that's entirely the point. It's even a bit of commentary about putting celebrities in positions of power (it's all about them, even at the expense of others).
Morality debate in every comunity is awful and repetitive. People just don't get morally gray characters or plot points.
I think morally grey characters themselves are awful and repetitive. I'm tired of them, I miss just straight up good and evil
@@inciniumz4671That's what cartoons are for. Otherwise, you HAVE to give a character some depth to not make them boring or "empty"
@@inciniumz4671 Every single person is morally gray. There is not one real person that is completely good or evil. Without any blurriness, the character feels flat and one dimensional in my opinion.
Because people are surrounded by propaganda that claims that there are no morally grey areas.
That there is no nuance to issues, when there clearly is if you examine it with a critical eye.
This all or nothing attitude is destroying society and it needs to stop.
And on the flip side, some people think they do get morally grey characters and think that that means you're wrong to criticize them for their actions.
14:20 I think he just cannot feel love. He can cry or be scared, he also murdered everyone few times over for a reson - to feel something. My theory is that he cannot feel compassion, and is less affected by other feelings
The thing about Toriel that bothers me is that she's an outlier in a way that makes her seem really pretentious.
She leaves Asgore because of his stated goal to restart a war with humanity, but more importantly, kill any human who falls down for their soul. This in and of itself is fine, but the problem is SHE'S THE QUEEN.
It makes her seem rather irresponsible to leave the underground without one of their rulers because of he personal distaste for Asgore's new policy.
I get that she also grew resentful of monsters who had agreed with Asgore, but this isn't portrayed very well. From the start, she seems to be the only one who has a particular beef with Asgore, and I don't think she's wrong to be upset, but it's weird that she is the ONLY monster who seems to hold Asgore in a negative light because of this.
If there was a specific "Asgore hate club" then it could be understood but instead it makes her beef feel really one sided, especially since in the final hours of the game, Undyne says that everyone's tried to kill Frisk at one point and Toriel has no reaction or concern for this despite having a strong dislike for Asgore over the same thing.
This might've made more sense if Toriel and Asgore's relationship was already rocky before the final straw was broken, but as the VHS tapes show us, they actually had a very loving and understanding relationship. Wouldn't that mean that Toriel would be the most empathetic towards Asgore? Instead she acts like she just saw her ex from middle school.
It's not about what Toriel did per say, it's more about what she didn't do. As the queen, she had the power necessary to at the very least rally some opposition to Asgore's tyrannical outburst, and even when she meets up with Asgore in the true pacifist run, she mentions a plan to use one human soul to cross the barrier and resolving the conflict peacefully and despite having this plan herself, she doesn't actually do anything.
Yet here she is with her holier than thou attitude.
She also suggests that he should’ve taken 1 soul and used it to kill 6 more humans like that’s a better solution and everyone just kinda agreed with it who played the game, the point is that Asgore doesn’t want to hurt anyone so he’s delaying having to collect the souls for as long as he can
Very true at 0:27
Flowey is sadistic, but he hasn’t always been like that, and he either has a lack of soul or has PTSD/Depression.
Toriel can be very clingy and while she means the best for the human, she needs to learn when to let go.
Sans roots for ya, but he does say if he didn’t make a promise to Toriel, he would have attacked Frisk instantly.
Papyrus in my opinion is the best main character, but even he has flaws, for example, he is full of himself and thinks about being popular, and does call you a weirdo for not liking puzzles in Genocide before offering you friendship despite the path.
Undyne straight up lies to Papyrus about why he can’t join the Royal guard, but does what she does for the sake of monsters.
Alphys has done a lot of messed up things, but it’s clear she WANTS to atone for the mistakes!
Mettaton does a lot just to try to kill Frisk like hiring other to kill Frisk, but he did say he was saving humanity by not letting Asgore get your soul, and in a flawed Genocide run, he says he can rest, hoping you don’t destroy humanity and saying if you tried to be fully evil, you failed.
Asgore, yeah he killed six humans, but he CLEARLY does not want to declare war, he’s just severely misguided.
Chara is the last one that I should mention, yeah, they destroy the world of Undertale, but all they did was destroy your game, and besides in a Genocide run, you technically did it first, and Chara gives you consequences when you were originally lacking most of them. If Chara truly wanted to just kill, they wouldn’t have killed themself to let Asriel possibly being the one in control as they thought would happen, they would’ve just killed a Dreemurr and went on a rampage, they willingly tortured themself to death in order to spare their family, and the plan was only six humans (you need seven) as Chara was planning using their own soul so less would have to die. Asriel didn’t say they were evil, he said Chara did have flaws.
Wasn't the whole 'eradication robot' thing for Mettaton just a pretext so HE could get his body, and Alphys could impress Asgore ?
We can't say someone is 100% good or evil, but we can say that Nubert is 100% awesome.
Nubert isn't even in Undetale...
@@narrativeless404 But he could be watching us while we go through the underground. He knows you're genocides.
thats papyrus
This is going to sound out of context, but if the next Smash game had a Subspace Emmisary and Sans was part of the roster, I don't think Sans joining the heroes (unless he was Crossbones) would fit his character since he only fights Frisk after commiting genocide. Plus, Frisk is a pacifist, so them fighting would be weird (unless their moveset incorparated pacifist and genocide) and the only ones I feel would join Mario, Sonic, Link or Kirby in saving the world would be Undyne or the Fun Gang (Kris, Susie and Ralsei).
Idk It depends on what threath the enemies oppose.
If its like the brawl One then yeah, i can see him fight, if not then no
Nah he totally could join in.
Remember that cutscene on Meta Knight's ship where Peach was casually walking through explosions, brewing tea cups of tea for allies and opponents alike, and befriending a Game & Watch moments after they attacked? Well, Sans would fit in perfectly.
I can envision Luigi running back and forth from monsters terrified, and then Sans is casually standing around every corner offering handshakes and hotdogs as Luigi screams and runs the other way again. Sans then makes them team up, and the first duo is created. A terrified Luigi and an unfazed Sans would be iconic.
Also I can't imagine Sans fighting much either. He would likely walk up and try to make friends with the enemies, and if they turn hostile they'd crush Sans and leave a gigantic crater of broken rubble in their wake, only for the camera to pan away and Sans is just shrugging in the background. _Then_ he'd let his allies do the work for him.
He'd just be there to make friends, have some good laughs, and force others to get along together.
@@dylanobrien3785 i ain't readin' allat bro
@@NiccolóReina _Me reading the instructions on the side of my medicine containers:_
Sans fights you in genocide because you are about to *end the entire world.* Bear in mind, he made a promise to keep the human safe, and Sans is the kind of guy to go to the infernal pits and back to keep a promise (provided he makes one in the first place), so given that between a breaking promise and allowing the destruction of the world, Sans opts to prevent the latter, he would *absolutely* face down a different world-ending threat that would show up, *especially* when there isn't *even* a promise in the way.
Tbh, I've come to see Chara as moreso like Susie from how their character is described fron Asriel's experiences, as for how they act in the genocide route I think it's moreso influenced by LV at some degree, considering LV it is described to change someone who has lots of it, and considering Chara says that the player and them are completely they gained the same LV as Frisk
The thing I always liked about Papyrus is how despite having a gigantic ego, he still encourages his friends and tries to help out. In his own mind it's closer to: "You can't be golden like me, but there is absolutely nothing wrong trying to reach the silver!"
Edit: Honestly most of the characters, even Asgore I feel are genuinely good people but are put in horrible circumstances. Papyrus, Undyne and Sans are the exceptions but they are the ones with solid goals as well. Papyrus wants to be famous, Undyne wants to free monsterkind and Sans wants to fulfill a promise. Overall the more I think about it the more it feels like a lesson of 'How much do you want to do something.' I might be reaching but the game potrays Undyne, Sans and Papyrus in a generally good light because they are 100% dedicated to their goal but are also willing to give it up for the sake of their friends. Toriel, Asgore and Alphys are in a bit more of a negative light due to the consequences of going too far for that goal.
Everyone deserves a second chance! Always remember!
Chara: ha ha, no.
bro pleas eadd outlines on ur text it looks very weird in moments like 3:50
See those words? NO SHIT!
Not flowey, i hate that shit
@@dev.1.1.1SANS!!!!!!!??!
I feel the reason why people love Undertale is that everyone feels human. They may have flaws yet they feel endearing. Like how Sans is a fatalist who doesn't care for others but genuinely cares for you (if you're nice that is), Papyrus and Toriel. Toriel is a caring mother but she has frustrations against her ex husband Asgore for the loss of innocent children and overprotective to those who want to protect themselves. And even Mettaton who's probably the only "unjustifiable" of the monsters if you judge his actions especially his Neutral ending where he becomes a dictator he loves his fans and wants to make a difference, but his ego may have blinded him. Or how Asgore is a conflicting king and lost because of his actions of using violence to save Monsterkind with the loss of innocents. Yes even Chara my most conflcting character I ever see in media is not good nor evil. And speaking of Chara let's talk about Chara Dreemurr because they're probably the misunderstood based on writing and also the issues with people viewing him. The people who wish to eliminate Chara for being the one who "manipulated" Frisk to commit the No Mercy run or the people who defend Chara like if Chara is their holy god they must protect.
So let's explain Chara Dreemurr, the most controversial character in Undertale and its fanbase. In my eyes, I originally felt Chara was pure evil all because of their actions towards their family. And how they dragged the Dremurr's into their mess. Originally I thought maybe Chara was misunderstood thanks to Fleur Marigold's essay titled, "Who Is The True Villain Of Undertale In Defense of Chara Dreemurr" but I do feel the video analyzing them made them too "good" in my opinion. A response video made by The Fiery Joker made an video essay on villainous characters becoming too sympathetic and that media is dangerous for allowing a tragic past or excuse to pass despite their actions being cruel. That villains who get away with it with a tragic story will make us excuse their actions too much that's it is a petty excuse, especially when they do it all over again. Now if I ever responded to both of their videos, I would say both of them are right and wrong. And let me explain them carefully.
It's true Fleur Marigold's video on Chara misunderstood them by blaming the player for causing Frisk to do the No Mercy route, but in my argument I feel they might've defended Chara for their erasure of Earth too much. But as much as I agree with the Fiery Joker, that media needs to have the Freudian Excuse is No Excuse vibe but luckily we have media like that where some villains aren't forgiven for their actions. (High Revolutionary from GOTG Vol 3, Jack Horner from The Last Wish, DIO from JJBA, Belos from TOH, Nearly The Entire Cast of Bojack Horseman, Crimson from Helluva Boss, Mahito from JJK, etcetera.) Using Chara as an example is wrong because while it's true Chara isn't innocent their response to the Chara Misunderstood video essayist of defending Chara a bit harsh. Sorry I did like the essay he made and I agree with the message mostly, but to my eyes Marigold's argument on Chara is valid and while it didn't age well they shouldn't have been reduced as a "Chara Defender Who Loves Chara So Much". Yes Chara to him is inexcusable but what about other UT characters like Muffet, Mettaton, Flowey or Asgore's actions. Fiery Joker tries to say this but this is Undertale and if people despised Alphys even though she's most regretful of the cast, his argument kind of falls flat especially for Undertale's morality being complicated as well as other series that are complicated like most Ghibli's movies not having the traditional good vs evil. Undertale isn't about justification, it's about love and understand others. It's the video game version of Steven Universe! (joking) It doesn't help that Toby's writing decision was likely for Chara to be ambiguous and if you think Chara is this and that I don't mind people saying they're good or bad. However it comes to the point the forget that not everyone character is black and white, and Chara reduced to these moral tropes drive me insane to no end.
So here's my take on Chara and agree or disagree. Chara is like the Player but unlike the Player they made a decision that ended up ruining their own life and cost of their family. I believe Chara did I enjoy the Dreemurrs but they wanted revenge against humankind so they slowly became more questionable like how they made Butterscotch Pie that made Asgore sick. They decided to trust in Asriel because they were the only one who cared and knew them. It's possible Chara hated humans possibly due to poor parenting or their family being toxic, so they ended up deciding to love Monsterkind...a little too much. So much so that I think Chara wanted humanity gone so that they can keep the Dreemurrs and live a haply life without any chaos or hate from man. I believe Chara is basically a dark foil to us the player. That if we love Undertale and its monsters, do we slowly become so attach it consumes us? That we love this thing so much we'll threaten others for not supporting what we like. After they failed and Asriel is gone, I imagine Chara being resentful and lost any hope. I think they were too caught up to swear vengeance against mankind they didn't feel care when Asriel passed away. Now for my view on Chara when they meet you after you're done with the No Mercy route. Chara basically feels connection. Care. Enjoyment over the monsters gone, yet at the same time they feel lost. Because that was only thing they have left. You took them away from them. I feel over the years as every children were lost, Chara became disillusioned by the world that he like Flowey (Asriel) treated everything like a game. They know the inevitable that every monster will fade away someday, and likely felt enjoyment when we commited this action yet they feel so lost they decided to destroy everything. Destroy everything is their new purpose now. So I feel Chara became this way because they're a child, a child doesn't know any better and because they possibly had a bad childhood Chara became a complicated mess of vengenace and resentment. Children are smart but they aren't fully developed and because of Chara made the family in disarray after Asriel is gone....they lost it all and its THEIR fault.
Which is why Frisk and us are the opposite of Chara. We cared for monsterkibd and made everyone slowly connect, love, and facewith their problems head on. But for Chara because they wanted mankind erased their emotional baggage and the inability of prace caused them to snap and lose everything. They never learned of true love and only think of LEVEL OF VIOLENCE, and when the Dreemurrs tried to guide then to peace used their son for their personal vendetta against humans at the cost of everyone's lives. Chara is what happens when we let ourselves lose it and make things worse. And I feel Asriel may not like what Chara did but he never forget them supported them as a friend, that's why he thought Frisk and us was his friend. Because to him we and Frisk represent what Chara could've been...choose pacifism. Chara to me is a tragedy and that they're tragic because at least Flowey can return back to Asriel if Frisk can use their soul to help Asriel. Chara has noone now and whether you think they deserve their demise or not, I kind of pity them almost.
(Also please do not attack Fleur Marigold and Fiery Joker. They made their essays years ago and please don't harass them for a single character....please...)
what is the fiery jokers video called
I always didn't like how the fandom considers Chara to be either a complete monster or a good person. Yes, Chara has good sides (for example, they tried to save monsters at the cost of their lives), but at the same time, Chara has a very... questionable sense of humor. Like when they put poisonous flowers in Asgore's pie
Pretty sure that was an accident that they laughed off but okay.
We don't actually know much about Chara, tbh. Only what we have, is just a small facts, which can be read in many angles and positions. I prefer to think what Chara sincerely desired the best future for the monsterkind, but barely knowing how to interact with other creatures, she manipulated Asriel and did some questionable things for her goals. It could affect Flowey's personality, and he started to act and talk quite like Chara would.
I just believe it was intentionally ambiguous so whatever the player sees The Fallen Child is what they are.
Idk the years of debating have drained me.
@@1BeautifulDuck Nah, they had a reading level way to high to honestly make that mistake.
Chara reading: "Two lovers over hells cauldron..."
Also Chara reading: "Clearly this recipe requires butter cups."
@@MrGamernova I don’t think they knew that buttercups are poisonous. We see that they have an interest in botany through the water sausage flavor text, and the cause of that may be that they didn’t want what happened to Asgore to happen again, to anyone but themself.
You are one of the few underrated Undertale RUclipsrs.
I really like ur content keep it up!
Love to see how you actually looked into this deeply, everyone has their problems, nobody is pure good or purely evil.
Fanon sans when you get 1 exp:GASTER BLAST
Theres ONE character that I can say for certain is 100% pure evil, that is muffet, maybe she doesn't eat her pastries, but she makes them out of other spiders for other spiders to eat, she literately serves spiders for other spider cannibals to eat, was going to literately kill you and make you into food, which frisk is a CHILD, and in general muffet basically solely cares about money, she only let's you go because you didn't kill any spiders, which is superbly hypocritical
plus, if you don't immediately kill Muffet in the genocide route and let her dialogue run on, she'll say that Alphys tried to convince her to evacuate but Muffet refused and considered turning Alphys into a donut. She then tries to spare you once she learns you didn't kill any spiders, just a shit ton of monsters. Reason she's probably not in deltarune is because she's in a federal prison for various felonies lmao
.....not really.....if you don't spare her... in the Geno route..... it'll says 0 gold.....she really did try to save her family from being broke......I don't think if the donuts are really made out of spiders .........and there's alot of characters that threat us THAT way.....(Also Metaton told her that we being bad with spiders)....not the best mindset BUT NOT PURE EVIL....she really cares about her spider family.......... I don't talk about her behaviour....but in the boss fight we learned how the spiders in the ruins can't leave there.... because of how cold snowdin is .......also...that one scene after beating her(no mercy) is quite upsetting.....
Neat video! I think something crucial to morality in Undertale involving Flowey and the Chara we see at the end of the no mercy route is that they can’t really be judged in terms of morality. These two characters are intentionally paralleling and reflecting the player, especially Flowey, and trying to morally judge the player is a pretty fruitless endeavor.
Personally, I think Undertale is about understanding and compassion. Not necessarily about who’s justified and who’s not.
Let me give you an example. Mettaton in my opinion is probably the most evil main character in Undertale. Wants to take Frisk’s soul to CROSS the barrier himself, not break it, all so he can entertain humans who’ll likely kill him. Admits it on live TV. He’s also not a good friend to Alphys, exposing her motives on live TV and not talking to her after she creates his body. Then he becomes a dictator in the king Mettaton ending.
However, Mettaton still matters to people. Dorked made a great video on NPC reactions to major character deaths. Mettaton has by far the most changes.
If I had killed Mettaton on my first playthrough:
-Napstablook and Mettaton would’ve never reconnected (nor Shyren).
-The MTT Resort employees would be out of a job.
-The entire Underground would be left without an entertainer.
-Papyrus would be robbed of his idol.
Even if Mettaton does horrible things, and honestly, is just a plain bad person, even on Pacifist, he still matters to people. He still had the potential to have a positive impact, whether he intended to or not. Whether we like it or not, no matter how kind or cruel we are, we’re all still people.
Also, I wish more fangames would let the player figure that out for themselves. Because in a lot of recent fangames (Undertale Yellow or Undershuffle Sans) the dialogue in battles becomes just a huge morality debate as well as exposition dump, which I feel like takes the fun out of a lot of battles and even characters in some cases because it’s just, in your face, you know? That probably doesn’t make sense, but hey, I don’t know how else I could’ve worded it.
That’s a revelation about Undertale that I’ve come to recently, and it’s really effected my writing for my own AU. And I really want to show other people this perspective.
flowey is definitely the most evil main character
" all so he can entertain humans " Don't forget that he also wanted to save humanity from Asgore.
also in the king mettaton ending mettaton is very worried for alphys and he says "I TRIED TO GET ALPHYS TO HELP, BUT..SHE WAS NOWHERE",or something like that.
@@assholesツ Okay, you got me there. Honestly, it feels like Flowey just doesn’t play a major role that much aside from the beginning and the end. And the genocide run. Still, you got a point.
@@khaosinkorporated9493 ye, well all flowey does really is steal the human souls in the neutral and pacifist ending, and pretty much nothing in the genocide
So for Mettaton and Alphys, one other thing is that pretty much all of the conflict with Mettaton in Hotland was staged to make Alphys feel more confident in herself, and Mettaton was just going along with it.
Frisk was never in any real danger until Mettaton started "going rogue" so to say, shuffling the CORE so Alphys can't help them navigate and hiring the CORE's random encounters to go after them (and maybe he put RG 01 & 02 and Muffet up to fighting them too).
And the reason Mettaton "went rogue"?
Because he wanted Frisk's SOUL so that he can save humankind from ASGORE and perform for humans on the Surface.
I think this helps justify Mettaton even more!
And for Alphys, keep in mind that in Genocide (also the Aborted Genocide Neutral Ending where she becomes queen), she also revealed the truth about the Amalgamates to everyone since she evacuated them into the True Lab. Suffice to say, this justifies her even more.
Funnily enough, the events of Genocide help justify a lot of the characters. Toriel realizes you didn't need protecting. Papyrus shows his naive side, believing in you to the end. Undyne and Mettaton realize you're a threat to everyone on Earth, not just monsters. And they both fight you to try to save everyone (though Mettaton dies in one hit because you were just too strong at that point). Undyne really was a true hero. Sans finally stops being lazy and tries to get you to quit by fighting you using dirty tricks. And Alphys finally reveals the truth about the Amalgamates to everybody, and becomes a lot more confident in herself.
Also, just a nitpick, but Sans doesn't really hate you for killing Toriel. He barely says anything about it, assuming she's just feeling sick (unless you kill Papyrus in which case he angrily reveals that he knows she's dead).
Anyway, I love this video. Nothing is strictly black and white in games with well-rounded characters like Undertale's. I'm especially tired of people pretending that Chara is pure evil or pure good, as doing that ruins their character in a similar vein to how it ruins Asgore's.
In making this video, you really did demonstrate your Basedness!
He makes a bit of a threat but doesn't actual confront you, unlike with Papyrus where he explicitly hates you.
Papyrus isn't exactly selfish or anything like that, you can even skip his fight if you suck enough, he just doesn't have any friends, sans is noticeably more popular, and all Papyrus can confide in is a talking flower
something about how i feel about toriel leaving the throne and such:
It’s understandable she would want to leave Asgore after what he announced, not arguing that. But people don’t understand that it’s not about just Asgore and her breaking apart, it’s the fact that she could’ve done better, like possibly trying to stop such things, not that I don’t personally believe she didn’t but it isn’t hinted to at all. It feels a bit wrong to leave your whole race at a time like that, after the ‘hope of humans and monsters’ died. After all, she could’ve tried to help her people. But then again, it’s understandable. Her children’s death impacted her in that such way, and people react differently to grief/grievous situations.
Asgore:
Definitely the most CLEAR grey (gray?) character, he’s done bad things, but it’s more of in a tragic sense. Deep down he is a good man, but you can’t excuse what he’s done, but understand them. That’s why Asgore feels well written. It doesn’t justify him, but makes him more understandable, while still allowing us to love him as a character.
Flowey and Chara: Pure grey (gray?). Flowey’s perspective is that nothing literally has any purpose and that nothing matters due to the cosmic idea of resetting or timelines. He can’t even feel, and these reasons are why I feel Flowey is grey rather than pure evil. Chara is around the same things, bad ideas like hating humanity and potentially emotionally abusing Asriel, but there are clues that tell us that Chara was abused in some way shape or form, and that they really do love monster kind.
this only happens because people are to simple minded to be able understand stories that aren't just good vs evil conflicts
i've been a HUGE undertale fan, tho I wonder if I should make my own undertale content, and basically you're pretty much right abt ALMOST everything in my opinion
I agree with most of these points before watching the video. Id say that Frisk leans more towards good than true neutral, but still isnt just good.
And Chara exists.
14:30 " flowey killed everyone"
Sans:hold my kepchup
Yes he kill
“There’s no truly evil character in Undertale.”
Jerry:
All jokes aside, YES! Thank you for making this video. I’ve seen way too many “Alphys bad” or “Toriel bad” or “Asgore good” takes and it really gets on my nerves, because… They’re not? Nor are they perfectly the opposite. Some people don’t seem to understand the existence of nuance… Looking forward to your Flowey analysis (I think you mentioned that, right?), your videos are really great.
My opinion on Chara… Well, they were a manipulative person for sure. But their motives were definitely good, they just wanted to free monsterkind. And they sacrificed themself for it. If they really just wanted to kill humans, they could have taken Asriel’s soul, but they didn’t. Chara definitely hated humanity, but from what we know they likely have a good reason for that. I think they saw taking the lives of humans as necessary for monsterkind’s freedom.
Post their death… Well, it really depends on your actions. If you follow narra-chara, they get to know a human in pacifist, and probably learn they’re not so bad. In genocide, I think they distance themself from monsters because of LOVE. Once they distance themself, it’s easy to basically just guide the human along. They develop the player’s mentality. So I’d rate them (goodness leve) around 65% pre-death, around 75% at the end of pacifist, and around 15% at the end of genocide.
Chara did take over Asriel to kill a human village. If you mean Chara could've killed Asriel and take his soul to do whatever they want with humanity, then it's probably because it's more troublesome to kill your own brother than poisoning yourself and getting your soul absorbed.
Chara did want to free monsterkind, sure. And to eradicate the humankind out of spite. One doesn't cancel the other, the second one is an evil thing to do for sure no matter what that's also worsening Chara's character as a whole. Honestly I dunno how stubborn you must be to insist on convincing that Chara wanted to erase humans exceptionally because they wanted to free the monsters, and not because they also have a hatred for humans which exactly is the thing making their motives rather evil.
And the fact Chara manipulated and fooled Asriel from the beginning, made him absorb their soul as a request to see village flowers again, hidden as an intention to do whatever they want is the key reason making this operation failure and making Chara's motives even worse imo.
@@Oleja2008the point he was trying to make was about how characters are morally grey. Chara isn’t perfect, nor are they a “good” person per say. They have some justified motives, but have done horrible things. That’s doesn’t mean they are pure evil (probably not what you are saying) but they aren’t that good. If that’s what you are saying, then I’m blind and stupid, and need some help, so don’t pay any mind to this if that’s the case.
@@Oleja2008(I’m not actually blind)
@@Oleja2008I don't get all this debate around Chara, they're most definitely not evil just due to that, if that was the case Asgore would be evil due to the fact he murders children instead of absorbing one soul and leaving the underground.
Alphys is evil because of the experiments she made on the monsters.
But this is just not the case, because in Undertale morality matters and characters are intrisically complex, I won't deny that Chara trying to kill humans was definitely a bad thing, but the statement that Asriel was manipulated could easily be refuted if you try to look at their dialogues in another perspective.
@@Oleja2008The argument you gave about mentioning that Chara didn't kill Asriel (or anyone else) doesn't make sense, If they were the "PuRe 3v1l", you make them out to be, they would have done this, and if they didn't it's a plot hole.
Ive seen
so
Many
Videos of evil chara
And good frisk
...like buddy-
Chara aint evil
Nor is frisk good
nor is chara good
and frisk bad
It also has to do with the fact the fanbase only views two routes the player can go on
I've seen so many videos of good Chara and evil Frisk
@@themustardman219 you sure that ain't underswap?
@@keithflippers4429 I'm sure
I never dove deep into the uuh morality debates of the characters but when you said "these following characters are generally considered evil" and instantly followed up by saying undyne i was shocked lol, doesnt she like.... protect the whole underground?
16:50
I think Chara was good, they just suffered mental illnesses.
The Faded Ribbon saying that if you are cuter monsters will not hit that hard, if you take it in a theoretical way, it implies Chara might have known people that to them, WERE MONSTERS, like, Chara was abused on the surface-monsters!
The only one they trusted enough to even talk about their problems with, was Asriel because they trusted him due to how close the two were, this is also why they discussed the plan after accidentally poisoning Asgore, and poisoned themself to spare the other Dreemurrs to cross the barrier, and due to not knowing power would be split, due to Asriel agreeing on his own accord, Chara was entrusting ASRIEL with the task of willingly killing six humans. Chara also probably only tried to urge Asriel to kill more in self defense because Asriel was dying!
Also, after Chara kills Sans and Asgore for you, the player gets control back and has to press enter to kill Flowey, which means Chara *hesitated* and gives you one last chance to reconsider!
Overall, Chara was a good person, but like Asriel said, they weren’t the greatest person.
The literal whole point of Undertale is showing kindness to people by understanding
The monsters are completely different from you and seemingly attack you without reason, but thinking about it from their perspective, they’re the oppressed people who haven’t caught a break, so showing mercy is the least you can do, especially since you’re significantly more powerful and have the power to do so, even on an individual basis, the most reprehensible character, Flowey, is only the way he is because of circumstances out of his control (him lacking a soul).
In this sense, I would say no character in Undertale is really evil, and more that the place you’re in is full of people who have been dealt an unjustly bad hand and understandably want to do what they can to make tomorrow a better day, even if those actions would seem cruel and unjust from a perspective that hasn’t been through the misery that they have.
Personally I'd consider Chara a neutral character? Their morality shifts depending on what Frisk/the Player wants to do. In Genocide, they ultimately just point you in the right direction and finish what you started at the very end to make a point. In other routes they're neutral, or maybe even leaning slightly towards good in True Pacifist.
If you subscribe to the "Chara is the Narrator" theory, there's also some evidence that the killing of certain monsters disturbs them in non-Genocide routes--particilarly during Undyne's neutral death, which has some pretty freaked out dialogue.
They definitely don't have the best *reasons* for most of their actions, but neither do, like, half the characters in Undertale.
Chara does not exist in other paths, this has not been confirmed anywhere
@@NOTaNaBC "Mmy human soul."
"My determination"
"They were not mine, but YOURS."
Chara explicitly telling you that you revived them the moment you fell.
@@Alt_DiegoBrando No. These words say nothing about WHEN Chara was revived
@@NOTaNaBCPretty sure we do. Toriel's house in genocide "Where are the knives." written in red text,explicitly confirmed to be Chara.
@@SadIsMe1055 Don't you see the contradiction? This phrase appears in Toriel's house and only on Genocide. That is, it does not prove that Chara was revived exactly when we fell
I will never understand how a fandom can look at a game where one of the central themes is "hey, none of these characters are black/white, they're literally all incredibly flawed and it's up to you and your willingness to show compassion to set them on the right track" and then that same fandom can look at characters like Chara and say "oh hey, pure evil" or Asriel, Papyrus or Toriel and say "oh hey, ultimate good".
Love this game but it genuinely baffles me how terribly it gets misunderstood by its biggest fans
I don't think we ever set anyone on the right track tho, other than Undyne, Alphys, Mettaton and Flowey, we don't do anything for anyone else, Toriel on her own realized "oh maybe I should be with the human, and Asgore doesn't deserve to become dust" by thinking for some time (you could say we helped her by sparing her but... c'mon that's just being a person), Papyrus is still Papyrus, Sans is still Sans, and Asgore still is Asgore
We helped 4/8 of the main cast at least, the other 4 really didn't change anything from the start of the game
I feel like the complexity of morality and character depth in Undertale would make it overlap very well with other complex works of fiction that have characters which similarly fall upon shades of grey. One that comes to mind is Animorphs.
mtt is a ghost with a robot body, he was acting like a killer robot to make alphys look good
Chara is a kid. They've been most likely maltreated by their family, zo they despise every humans.
I think you forgot something major with the Mettaton and Alphys portion, all the times Mettaton “tried to kill you” were all because of Alphys’ orders, he never actually tried to kill you (until he became EX anyway and revealed that truth), Alphys just wanted him to get in your way so she could prove that she is useful to you, and I could be wrong on this last point because I haven’t failed a MTT Minigame in ages, but I don’t think failing any of them actually kills you
Mettaton Did reveal it was his own choice for wanting to kill you but he has Understable reason, he believes Asgore was corrupt and even if Monster do get free, he believes it won't give monster a peace needed, when Asgore has been heavily implied once he gather 7 humans soul, another war will occur (that is until Frisk arrived and likely give him change of plan), Mettaton just doing what he believe is right which is understandable because while we do know what Asgore is like, not everyone has a chance to meet the king himself and have deep conversation with him to understand his motive and goal
i hop into the video and i see undyne and im like "woah my favorite character!!" and then i see "shes also probaly the most racist character in the game" wow. i wasnt ready for that...
If someone calls Chara pure evil, lemme remind you their reaction when you beat the genocide route twice in a row
10:14
I like to think it this way:
ASGORE Is rather a good person, but it is covered by a layer of bad paint
What I don't get is Toriel was treated as a Angel when we literally see her abandoned her people and Asgore because she had a bias towards humans more than her own race, have her plan both hypocritical and no worse than Asgore, and have her overbearing.
The key factor here imo is that even if you disagree with the character's actions, you can at least understand them.
Toriel and asgore were both in an impossible situation neither of them could truly navigate through. Sans and flowey are far too aware of their (un)limited existance. Papyrus gets a surpising amount of disrespect from his own friends. Undyne was practically indoctrinated. Alphys was positioned into unknown territory and payed the price with her conscience, and mettaton was far too focused on bigger things over their friends.
Does that mean you have to like them? No. But i see so many people respond to these types of complex analyses meant to disprove misconceptions with that exact rhetoric and it kind of misses the point? It's like sure, toriel was going through just as much grief as asgore and with a conflicting set of principles as well, and likely blames herself every day for what happened to all the children only fueling her possesive attitude, But she was kind of a hypocrite about it so she's the worst person in the underground. You can dislike characters overall while also understanding where they're coming from.
You need to keep in my one thing...
ALL JUST A GAME-
Chara is not good, evil, or neutral. They are the embodiment of DETERMINATION. Like DETERMINATION, which can be used to take any path, Chara can take any path. However, they are somewhat selfish. They want your soul so they can take control and choose their own path instead of relying on you to choose for them.
the only real reason anyone hates alphys is pacafist/neutrel run she wont stop interupting your playthrough with constant messages... thats it, no other reason. you cant deny it!
i may be wrong, but i recall that if you do the no mercy route over and over again, chara will try to reason with the player to do another route, which implies that while they were awakened by death, they dont really get enjoyment from it, its more so they want complete control over frisk's soul to feel alive again, and if killing everyone and restarting everything will do, so be it, and thus making the no mercy route more so a ritual to awaken them
"I just want the kids back Toriel.."
"i don't really care lol"
2:04
And also.
She’s so caught up in her grief that she doesn’t seem to realize that she’s technically kidnapping them.
Your videos are so good man! You need way more subscribers! Btw I like the Dimentio pfp.
I would love to see Flowey analysis. But i think, all Dreemurr's family deserve it, they are a reason of all of this in the end. Thanks for such an interesting video, it brings some fuel for thoughts.
My thing is, just because characters are capable of good doesn't mean they will be. Some people in this world are just horrible, cruel people, maybe due to past issues or maybe because they grew up into the kind of person who enjoys being that way. It feels like so many villains today have to be sympathetic and nuanced to the point of having more depth than the protagonists. But sometimes we have characters like King, who's just a straight up bully: unreasonable, treacherous and cruel. He can't be dealt with in a normal way, all methods of kindness are repaid with more evil. His only redeeming quality is that he isn't THAT awful to his son. (maybe?) Flowey could've been like that if not for the 180 he makes at the end of the pacifist route. Just kinda goes "oh alright I guess I'm not evil anymore haha" despite killing countless people countless times including you, and I get that's the idea of mercy but that's never really brought up there or even a theme, mercy in UT is more of a refusal to fight rather than letting go and forgiving.
On a different moral note, I find it funny how Undyne is perfectly ok with killing you and/or other kids, even if you've done absolutely nothing wrong. But as soon as you kill ONE monster, who depending on the situation in this point of the game is either an idiot or actively trying to kill you, suddenly you're the bad guy and she wants nothing to do with you. Pinnacle of justice.
Also, in terms of Alphys, I think her flaws are more than just creating the amalgamates. She: hired monsters to kill you, spied on you (that part was part of her job but given she didn't really do much of the rest of her duties, yeah) used Mettaton and you to get closer to Undyne, lied to you and Undyne numerous times (set up stuff in the CORE to seem like your friend or lied about human things to looker cooler to Undyne) as well to as the families of the amalgamates. Had she told the truth about the amalgamates, both they and their families would've gone through a lot less suffering. But her hiding the truth wasn't about protecting others, it was about her and what others would think. Her telling the truth is important because she built up a habit of telling lies to get by. She hides during the events of the Geno route, maybe evacuating people but doing nothing whatsoever in her power to stop you. She didn't upgrade Mettaton for this, NEO was the original build. She could've sent out the amalgamates, who are completely invincible, or actually warned Asgore about you, or done anything else to stop you! She's not an outright malicious character but she's not good, either. I feel like Toby sees her better than how she actually comes off, given how she's treated by the story.
"hired monsters to kill you," No? Mettaton is the one who hired people to kill us, on his own. Alphys has nothing to do with that.
"spied on you (that part was part of her job but given she didn't really do much of the rest of her duties, yeah" You says that she don't do her job, but then blame for doing her job...?
"used Mettaton and you to get closer to Undyne" What the heck are you even talking about?
"set up stuff in the CORE " She did nothing in the CORE. All that was Mettaton.
"She hides during the events of the Geno route, maybe evacuating people" That's not "maybe", we know that she evacuated people.
" She didn't upgrade Mettaton for this" She wouldn't have time to do that and evacuate everyone at the same time.
"or actually warned Asgore about you" We know nothing about why Asgore wasn't informed. Maybe she tried to warn him, but he never answered. Or maybe Flowey did something to stop her.
@@sheogorath6834 she still lied to you by all fake mettaton encounters
@@kuroyami9757 Never said otherwise.
"demonize her for leaving asgore"
No, its more because she just ditched the entire kingdom and left it without a queen, at random, which actually *may* have lead to asgore furthering the "we gotta kill all humans" ordeal due to the fact that despair would have largely increased
What about the way Mettatom treats Burgerpants, and how he takes over the kingdom and makes it a self-centered distopia in one of the nuetral endings?
The demonization of chara needs to be studied i dont think ive seen a community go this far into making a charachter a demon out of like 5 dialogues and one action
I think chara had good intentions just didnt have the best ways of expressing them
Actually, Chara has a lot more dialogues and bad actions in no mercy, everyone just ignores them because they either don't know, or because they go against their point.
Example: Chara actively _telling_ you how to kill Sans. (Check dialogue for Sans after he dodges for the first time)
Chara is _generally_ good pre-death and in pacifist/neutral, but if you actually analyze all of the no mercy narration dialogues and other details from a non-biased perspective, you'll realize quickly that no mercy timeline Chara is the closest thing the game has to a pure evil character.
(Unless you deny narachara even in no mercy but in that context Chara only has a bit more dialogue and background than _Gaster_ so there's not much to analyze)
i'd be very interested to see your thoughts on the undertale yellow characters, specifially on if the "justice" in the Vengeance route is justified or not
Topic with an obvious answer.
Vengeance isn't justified since almost every monster isn't to blame and they deserve better. Clover doesn't even know what happens to him on different routes, so he doesn't have personal reasons as well (not like anybody forced him to give his soul on pacifist route either)
About characters, even about the most arguable ones, it doesn't sum into much too. Starlo rather is just a nice guy who had a tantrum that could be resulted in Clover's death. Funni. His "lawlessness" on Wild East doesn't feel much wrong either lol. His reaction to Ceroba's death is kinda wrong, just failed protecting Clover & Ceroba both, but now yapping to Clover though he was a victim, well done. Maybe understandable, though.
Ceroba is just like Starlo, but had a more important reason though it's not understandable. She's more to blame than Starlo, but seems to be better morally.
@@Oleja2008 True, most monsters had nothing directly to do with the five humans being killed but that’s not to say they weren’t opposed to them dying in the first place. Monsterkind as a whole are all seemingly fine with the humans being used for Asgore to become a God and dominate the surface. To me the Vengeance route in yellow seems like karma coming back to bite the monsters for the five humans, and that is why Clover actually gets to succeed (compared to regular undertale where the Player’s actions awaken a demon that erases them).
@@thunder2275 idk, monsters' treatment depends on a killed human specifically. Basically Clover once again, in pacifist route monsters loved him and wouldn't want him dead.
I'm not really sure how the presence of justice's definition and the birth of demon are connected.
Another thing about Alphys is that the families consented to the experiments and she was ordered by Asgore to do the experiments to figure out a potential way to escape the barrier. The whole thing was basically just like donating a person's body to science except it just happened to go horribly wrong. The only thing that Alphys did wrong that was kind of her fault was not telling the families sooner but that wasn't entirely her fault because of her severe anxiety issues.
I was considering commenting this myself. Blaming Alphys in this way really doesn't sit right with me. It's not like Alphys went about the experiments unethically or in a "wrong" way for as far as we know, right? She injected determination into willing subjects and it went bad. And I also think the whole not telling anyone thing isn't even just her anxiety, but really a lot of people would be afraid to talk about something like this if they were in Alphys' shoes. "Hey guys so your family member's been mutated into a zombie-like eldritch horror merged with random other minds and people oopsies" :/ And she still came clean in the end. Alphys hate boggles my mind
@@commonbridge4735 Yeah even without dealing with mental illness owning up to something like this is EXTREMELY hard for most people. Anyone who genuinely hates Alphys most likely just doesn't understand her there really aren't any other reasons to dislike her.
chara is hyper-chaotic neutral, or a psychopath who doesn't realize they are one.
but then again chara was shown time and time again to be linked with frisk.
also! based_guy could you watch the deltarune-undertale theory about sans?
there is an interesting one. about sans
People do not demonize Toriel for leaving Asgore, they demonize her for leaving the people of the Undergound (while we can see it, they are still her people)
9:53 little thing, you forgot to remove the lab music so it just overlaps with the other music.
Oops,I dont know how I didnt notice it
It's alright homie.
i would count chara and resurrected chara as 2 different people atleast when it comes to morality.we learn that love is based on your williness to hurt others and just like the power determation is connected to the feeling of determination exp and love can change some one moral.we even see this with frisk,the stick provide evidence that frisk is good but in the genocide run as it continues frisk becomes more sadistic and even smile when they encounter someone.chara is connected to frisk and it likely the same thing happened to them
i came to this comment section for 1 request.
make another part of "UFS VS ULC in a musical battle"
and please add the "wild west swap sans skin" theme because it is the biggest banger
actual fair fight for server lining, possibly
Going back to this video, Mettaton literally cuts ties with Alphys as soon as he was fully finished. And even when he decided to make a promise to Alphys, he broke it durning his real fight. He’s a pretty big asshole in conclusion.
*Edit* - On a side note to Alphys, she was pressured by Asgore to finish both Mettaton and her Determination Injecting. Asgore didn’t even check up on her unlike Toriel who checked up on her in the Neutral Pacifist endings. Mettaton also reveals he was going to apologise to Alphys in the King Mettaton ending. I guess that’s good?
Completely missed basically the main plot of Alphys and Mettaton, somehow. Mettaton isn't actually trying to murder you for the most part, Alphys recruited him to stage everything so she seems like a valuable person as she assists you (and when you/she fails, Mettaton typically saved the situation). Mettaton goes off the script at Core though, now actually trying to kill you as what he calls a "plot twist" for the sake of a good show.
Undertale’s morality : To meet peoples, do the Frisk dance.
I mean I understand why Papyrus wanted to captured the human and it's quite understandable on what he's a bit selfish
because think about it in his own shoes he's lonely basically has no friends You could argue undying and Sans are his friends but then again in the game undyne and papyrus wasn't really that close to begin with until frisk came and pretty much Sans was his only friend.
and in the game it literally said he's "forgettable" so I understand why he wants to capture the human badly
And according to Sans he says Papyrus was down lately (most likely his loneliness) so it's obviously he would take the chance to capture the human.
You could've just said "people don't understand morality."
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Each character in Undertale is at best a lighter shade of grey, and at worst a darker shade of grey.
Unfortunately, common people will either see all white or all black. "People are either painted white or painted black," as I've heard in the past.
If someone doesn't like a character, none of the good matters. If someone *does* like a character, none of the bad matters.
It's honestly frustrating to see *wherever* this kind of thinking pops up.
My opinion
Frisk - pure neutral (bc all the difference choices)
Nabstablook - true neutral
Toriel - a little selfish but isn't fully evil.
Sans - neutral yet isn't exactly that smart.
Papyrus - good. Isn't evil and has no malicious intents. It was flowey who tricked him. He is overly prideful and completely gullible. Think If you mixed silver the hedgehog's naivety with sonic's ego.
Undyne - good but she was only following orders. The only willingly malicious thing she did was accidentally set her house on fire.
Mad dummy/ mad mew mew - needs some anger management and therapy.
Alphys - a clumsy nerd who actually makes mistakes.. her only sin is lying and hiding the truth. I kinda get it because she doesn't want people to think so little of her.
Mettaton - he is egotistical and did go murder crazy against the player.. however her does care for his audience in pacifist after you win. He goes under lawful neutral for these reasons. If the genocide route proves anything. He wants to give his audience a show they won't forget. I get alphys screwed up and accidentally focused too much on attack and so little on defense.
Muffet - evil.... she is the one who should definitely go to jail because she literally commits acts of cannibalism. I get she was made as the roles being reversed but her leaving the gate way open in the genocide route all for no reason... that's obserd! She could have sealed the gate way off yet she didn't.. what the actual hell!?
Asgore - he is a broken type of antagonist similar to shadow. I actually feel bad for him and generally believe if he did live in the neutral route after you spared him. He'd make a pretty kind dad.
Flowey - if you separate flowey and asriel. Flowey is pure evil. There's no way you can consider he is phyco... the no soul really adds to this.. meaning if asriel had no soul... then he'd end up like flowey. However the genocide route changes this...
Asriel - he is someone who regrets what he had done as flowey in pacifist and does show more in genocide yet genuinely feels like he was upset. Suffered an immortal life with no soul is definitely a fate worse than death.
Chara - they're chaotic neutral which is what I gathered from the tapes. They're a lil weirdo but hey.. I don't think all weirdo folk are evil.. chara pre death was the biggest example.
Other things I will say. If sans was willing to kill you in the genocide run. Shouldn't he have done it earlier?
Btw I'm an undyne fan. She is a badass yet she is the one character you cant call evil. More so chaotic good. She is funny and chaotic yet she does have boundaries.
I think Chara was not a good person, but not chaotically evil.
They only deleted the world because you brought them back to life with your increasing levels.
They saw that you basically destroyed everything they ever cared about, and chose to demolish the rest of it as a punishment. To leave you in the _void_
Bro really wanted to get recommendations and used everything he had. xd (I liked your video, because you talked about many characters, that the fandom didn't understand, and 100% described them as good/evil, such as Chara, Flowey or Papyrus. I like Chara as a character, because he/she told the player, "This is your limit, bro, and you can't keep wreaking havoc, so go away and never come back to this world, and if he comes back and becomes a pacifist, the player will see that one person will forever remember his past, and he won't be able to change it.")
I believe the only absolutely true neutral character is Blookie. They just want to sleep, dang it!
Oh....that was truly a very good video.... your analysis were great.......i almost...catch something in my eye when...you mentioned Asgore.....he said that he and Toriel will take care of Frisk as long as they're in the underground.....which is quite sad.........would Toriel even give him another chance after what happened...? He's deep down just a broken father.... that's just...sad...so sad...it almost makes me want an ending where Frisk can stay down there with...him and Toriel (true pacifist duh)...the fact that he will....do THAT in...a second natrual route when flowey does not interfere is just....oh god.............(Although it wasn't a very...nice decision spacially in front a CHILD) i guess....he really couldn't take it any longer huh..?
Also about Sans.......WHY WOULD HE BADTOM™ US WHERE WE STAND!?!? (Yeah he's REALLY NATURAL BUT...) ...but...would he do that because Frisk is a human...or...HE KNOWS... although he admitted that he did considered Frisk as a friend in Geno route......the way he fights...like...HE KNOWS....not everything...BUT HE KNOWS.... THERE'S ALSO ONE THING THAT, I BARELY SEE ANYBODY TALK ABOUT, in Geno route Undyne fought for the whole earth both humans and monsters in ("human....no whatever you are") ahhh dialogue...is this just because of our power..?(Frisk is after all just a child so that's understandable) BUT NO, I saw alot of memes about Geno route Asgore... HOWEVER not only absorbing the humans' souls to fight us was very out of his personality........I think he did not recnogize us as a human....ok...Frisk is literally -_- always, that's how we see them....but...what if the other monsters see them differently in Geno route!? (This one really reminds me of the game 'OFF') BUT THAT'S TRULY VERY VERY INTERESTING TO THINK ABOUT
6:15 No he doesn't? He says right before his fight that that was all just an act he went along with. He and Alphys agreed to do it because it was mutually beneficial: Alphys got her facade of a hero, Mettaton got dramatic content. It's only right before his true fight that he decides to give that up in favor of a different goal. It was still a bad agreement on both ends, but not half so bad as you make it out to be. Additionally, in the Mettaton EX fight, he shows a more selfless reason to kill you: "But if I get your soul, I can stop Asgore's plan! I can save humanity from destruction!" and, later on, "Enough of this, do you really want humanity to perish?! Or do you just believe in yourself that much?"
Good video, but I think I disagree with a few points. First Toriel, I think you should mentioned that she abandoned the kingdom (reminder that she was the queen) in a really bad moment, like its not only that she divorced Asgore, is that she completely cut off with her whole race aside from a few people that live on the Ruins (that were scared of her by the way, that isnt a good look). Second I think Sans is on the good side and not true neutral, first of all I never took that menace he tells us seriously, like Sans never looks like that type of guy, but most importantly and I think you should've added is that the reasons Sans doesnt care to stop you on neutral routes is because he knows everything is going to be reset, he hates you with all his guts and if he didnt knew about our power he would end uh right there, but he knows it itsnt worthy because at any moment all could be restored. Now unto Undyne, I dont know how you were able to say ALL that about her and then clasify her as "neutral chaotic", come on she is clearly good chaotic. You literally explained everything made sense within her thoughts and the logic of the situation they were in. Onto Mettaton, it was a fairly nice section, but you should added the whole King Mettaton neutral ending debacle (which by the way it happens after the whole "redemption" he has at the end of his fight). He quite literally brainwashes the whole Underground and makes himself ultimate dictator, yeah he put on an Alphys statue and all that, but its clear he took the whole being adored by his fans too much to the point of makind everyone's lifes revolve under him, I guess at least Papyrus was happy.... I guess. And finally Chara well... destroying an already broken world really? The Underground has for sure at very least hundreds of inhabitants, very likealy in the thousands by Mettaton ratings, we kill "only" (is still a lot of course) a bit above 100, assuming the least case Chara killed ten times more than us to "punish" us, what the hell. Imagine I steal a phone and my punishment is watching someone else steal a bank, like whats the point. Also its pretty clear Chara had something planned for Souless Pacifist, is certainly not just a reminder of what yo done (like it is of course but there is more to it) and they had very probably something nefarious in mine, probably ending humanity type of deal. For the rest of charcters I didnt mention I agree for the most part.
Dude if I was Toriel I'd divorce his bitch ass too.
My thought process would be :
My human child died, and my monster child absorbed their soul and then also died. My husband declares war on humanity??? And my people (who loved the human child) supported them???????
You also have to keep in mind that Toriel probably wasn't able to change the minds of her people back when Chara/Asriel died and so left, we know she didn't leave immediately due to Asgore's dialogue after defeating him and she does the same thing in a lot of neutral endings when she can't change monsterkind's opinions on hunting humans.
Honestly, Toriel's worst flaw is her inaction, she could have protected the other 6 humans that fell and just refused to.
3:46 I disagree. Papyrus tries his best to please everyone and not make waves while also pursuing his own ambitions, but he just doesn't think ahead at all, which is kind of a failure of responsibility. He doesn't think about the pain the shock maze and color puzzle might cause, he doesn't think about what will happen if he captures you, he doesn't even realize the immorality of the gauntlet of deadly terror until moments before he's about to activate it! Furthermore, he doesn't really have a backbone, trying to deceive Undyne in waterfall rather than telling her to her face that she's in the wrong.
if there's one thing about asgore, it's that he shouldn't be trusted with power
same thing about asriel
Not even Frisk, honestly. Or Alphys, with the determination from the human souls. Or Undyne (with the power of a stove).
The truth is, none of the characters should be trusted with power.
Instead of racist dustdust, now we have racist undyne
I believe that pre-rebirth chara is at least neutral. Because I dont think neither Asriel nor Chara know that they will split control in the body. The only reason we know about this is asriel personal experience. So when chara sacrificed themself, the plan was really to get 6 human souls and break the barrier which was stated by asriel. This also means Chara is willing to sacrifice themself for monsterkind. I mean, the buttercups accident is still pretty questionable but I still believe it was an accident. Their hate of humanity might also be justified, I mean they did fall down into the mountain where no one returns with not good reasons. And the line that Asriel said, not the greatest doesn't mean that they are bad, but I still question if they are good. So I think its at least neutral. Post-rebirth on the other hand is like more complex and I dont want touch it but I still think they are neutral, even a little bit more to the good(except for you know, the no-mercy route).
People forgot the the Frisk isn't Frisk in any route except in the end of True Pacifist and Hard mode.
If not then it isn't Undertale, it is Glitchtale.
toriel only left asgore because he didn't immediately go out and kill more humans to open the barrier. how do people keep missing this very obvious and spelled out fact
mettaton was only pretending to try and kill you up until the core, before he apparently decided that what he wanted more was fame and
Asgore declared war in a fit of rage, sure, but he also realized basically immediately that he didn't actually want to do this, which is why he decided to bide his time and only kill the fallen humans, instead of breaking out (see above)
Toriel is objectively the least moral character on this list because of that. The motherliness is selfish coping, she's generally deceptive about what life is really like outside the ruins, and she left her husband over what is essentially just damage control on what would have been a big mistake in the heat of the moment. Still not mega evil but the safest character doesn't have to be the most morally good character.
Chara exists as a stand in for you (you use your chosen name), and it's basically only when you reach the highest extreme that the character takes on its own life and decides to finish what you eagerly started. You are your own version of Chara, until you aren't.
For Flowey, I understand his circumstances but I really don't like him. Something I find interesting is how in the Genocide route he's clearly capable of feeling regret, so it makes me confused on really how emotionless he is.
But regardless, even if he is emotionless and insane, that doesn't mean that he's really a good person. Asriel is a good person, (albeit I do think the community is too rude to people who can't forgive him, since people don't owe immediate forgiveness to people and that's something that Asriel also understands) but as Flowey, he isn't really a very good person purely by the number of times he's tortured these characters and the insane amount of suffering he inflicted.
Flowey is pure evil due to not having a soul, but Asriel isn't. I think they should be separated and judged as two different people with how insanely different Asriel without a soul is versus Asriel with his soul.
Toriel: For me, it depends on whether or not she ever tried to talk Asgore out of his decision before she left. If she did, it's hard to call her culpable. If not, then she made a rash decision in my opinion. She felt the same grief losing both of their children, and it is made clear in the game she did most of the ruling. If she didn't try to reason with Asgore, she would have left a grieving, unstable man in charge, and her departure threw the Underground into more despair. If she did try to reason with him, then she did all she could on her front. Politically, the citizens probably woudn't have listened to her stance. Everything you say regarding her treatment of Frisk makes sense, too.
Sans: Became aware of a temporal disturbance that kept them all trapped underground. Since he doesn't know about Flowey in your time with him, he can only conclude it's all been you. He simply makes the most of his situation with his brother, and unable to motivate himself for much of anything else. Yet he still can't help but care about morality and promises. Though, for someone always watching, he does little to stop you from killing anyone, only stepping in in the last minute, probably due to figuring it would all reset anyways.
Papyrus: Hardworking and friendly, but could REALLY stand to humble himself a bit.
Undyne: Angry with mankind, needs to be reminded that whether monster or human, people are individuals.
Mettaton: Wants to keep Asgore from wiping out humanity (not knowing Asgore doesn't really want that). Gets carried away with stardom and his ambitions though, leaving Naptablook behind and getting murderous on a human child. Charismatic with soft spots, but REALLY needs some self-control.
Alphys: Thought she was helping, unknowingly dragged innocents into a nightmarish situation. Due to monsters turning to dust, getting samples to test DT on separate from the person themselves may have not been an option. Still, she never imagined that monster's structurally melt with too much DT. Scared and guilty, she didn't want their families to see them, fearing their responses. A poor judgement, perhaps even cowardly, but gets the push she needs to come clean.
Asgore: Made a promise he regrets. Has a whole kingdoms hopes and dreams riding on his shoulders. And if it is true that every human that came down happened to be children, all the more salt in the wound. A sensitive, heart-broken man who stayed true to a terrible promise, no matter how much he may not have wanted to.
Flowey/Asriel: Could have whole book on him. Through trauma and literal loss of soul, became unable to connect with anyone. Not who he used to be with no way to go back. Despite all this, he still made his own choices.
I would say Asgore is just a very normal guy who have the responsibility of all monster kind,he isn't a very great king,but that doesn't mean he's bad,he just shouldn't handle that much responsibility
I personally disagree on Frisk being a vessel because although it is kinda true, Frisk has been hinted at having their own personality throughout the game.
Frisk is shown to have a childlike mentality of wanting to have fun at all costs even if they do something bad (prob because they’re a child). We know they lack fear, they have a strong fighting spirit (Undyne’s dialouge), & they’re very unserious.
Also, (& sorry if I asked this before & I forgot), but can you make a video about your thoughts on Ink Sans (Fanon / The Fangame OP version of him, Canon ver by COMYET on Tumblr, Underverse Ink, etc?)
I dont know if ill give ink his own video but when ill be talking about underverse and "op" sanses he will definitely be one of the most talked about chars
@@Military_base01 *cough* *cough* godverse
I wouldn't say Frisk lacks fear, when approaching the shower in the True Lab, they're movements become sluggish, and when moving away from it while the curtain is still drawn, they immediately gtfo
@@Magma-Idiot-2001 I think that Frisk does lack fear (from right before the Omega Flowey fight where Frisk approaches Flowey without the player doing so), but they’re not completely fearless.
@@purpledshadow it's more like they're more brave than they are scared.
You'd probably have a field day with darkmarxsoul on the subject of chara being evil.
1:46 Totally disagree, she doesn't do nothing to the monsterkind and trap all non ghosts on the ruins, she is a bad mother since she let 8/9 children that she took care die and she demonizes Asgore for doing the bare minimum as a king, the Ruins is the Ruins because underground was collapsing, a king should not let his people be extinct, collecting human souls is the only and using only one soul to get more isn't a good idea as we saw in Asriel case
She can't stop them asriel died ny human 7 human soul died by asgore
I knew flowey isnt evil the whole time he couldnt control himself
I'd disagree, he has control. But that's what makes him interesting. Asriel is commonly compared to the masked man of mother 3, but I'd say they're pretty different. It's pretty clear that the masked man lost nearly all his free will some time after the 3 year skip.
But Asriel still has free will. He has tons of it, he could destroy and create save files 'n' what not.
He just lost a part of himself, and ended up becoming a sociopath. After losing his empathy and becoming immortal, he eventually got tired of being satisfied by nothing, and started playing around with the timeline, eventually becoming sadistic. The shit talking serial killer is the same boy we hug at the end of pacifist, just bored and insane.
I think Frisk is 55% good and 45% bad. They refuse to insult or even heckle one of the amalgamates.
You should do a morality check on the Undertale Yellow cast