Terrible Idea for Airline Pilots
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- Опубликовано: 23 мар 2024
- Lawyer explains what it's like being an airline pilot and how stressful the job is and suggests pilots should be able to go fly if mentally unfit without reporting it to the FAA
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The only thing that stresses Kelsey is whether or not he’ll get free breakfast
I thought it was the snacks 🤔
I was going to say “…and lack of snacks” 😂
This needs to get pinned
Yea, the breakfast situation!
YES!
I can speak from personal experience on this - I've been receiving treatment for anxiety and have been on a low-dose medication for the past 8 years with absolutely zero side-effects. I was working toward my PPL and was denied a medical certificate by the FAA specifically because of my treatment and medication. Even submitted an appeal to the to the Federal Air Surgeon along with a statement from my doctor confirming that I am perfectly stable with no side effects, and the FAA flat-out denied my certificate. Nevermind the fact that I have to take the exact same medical exam for my CDL to drive a semi in which I haul chemicals and explosives, but apparently I'm not qualified medically to fly a C172.
EDIT - I guess what I'm saying is, there's an argument to be made that the FAA's strict guidelines while well-intended, do create an incentive for pilots or prospective pilots to hide their conditions for fear of disqualification, rather than encouraging people like me to seek help for a treatable, controllable condition.
This. 100% this.
You weren’t in the union yet.
I don't want anyone with anxiety disorders flying my plane, period.
@@lukeproctor69do you have anxiety? Hope so, otherwise you didn't listen to Kelsey's very first lesson in the video
People change, adapt, overcome but most people don't believe that apparently.
I’m an Aviation Medical Examiner (AME). While the FAA does make allowances for various medical conditions, called Special Issuances, they seem to have a problem with any mental health issue. If it is disclosed on your medical exam it triggers all sorts of requests and delays for additional information or exams. I recently had the FAA request a neuropsychologist exam on a pilot applicant which costs $5,000 up front. And is not covered by insurance as is the case with many of the tests they request because they are being done for the FAA and are not “medically necessary” which is generally a requirement for insurance coverage. I do worry about pilots not going to the doctor, fearing it will impact their livelihood. I think that is the point the aviation lawyer is making.
This is precisely why I stopped pursuing flying as a career. I had OCD in and just after college. It's in my records and I think it's one that's more frightening to see (I've had doctors question it before). Mine was not a typical presentation, but I was medicated for just under a year over a decade ago. I have not had symptoms in almost that long. But I don't dare risk spending an incredible amount of money to find out I would be disqualified when I already have a decent career. Flying can be a hobby. No one in software is gonna fire me if I went to see a therapist after my dad died. 🤷♀️
I agree with all the criticisms of Kelsey's view on mental illnesses in airline pilots here. Petter Hörnfeldt from Mentour Pilot described this problem in detail from a pilot's perspective in his video about Alaska Airlines flight 2059. He also calls for more realistic mental health requirements for pilots so those who are affected can speak out when their symptoms are mild.
But Kelsey read on the internet that you don’t have to report that to the faa. He’s an expert you see he read it on the World Wide Web.
The impression I got was that Kelsey is saying that the lawyer is wildly over estimating the prevalence of mental issues among pilots.
I think this totally flew over Kelsey's head.
Last I heard, pilots are human beings. A LOT of human beings could benefit from therapy, but MOST of them don't want their own bosses to know all about it-I sure wouldn't, and my job security isn't even linked to whether or not I go. There IS a middle ground: there could be policy statements developed for therapists about under what conditions they must report the pilot's situation to the airlines.
I retired a few years ago after spending 38 years as a firefighter, one of the jobs that Kelsey believes is more stressful than being a commercial pilot. Until the very recent past, firefighters (and law enforcement and EMS) were looked at as people who should be able to "tough it out" and keep their feelings at bay. It was considered to be a sign of weakness to seek out mental health assistance, and it would negatively impact your job longevity, career progression, and eventually your personal life. First responders get their self-worth from their careers, and I'm sure pilots are much the same, so losing your job would be like having your identity taken away. Eventually, the fire service, after seeing years of increasing numbers of suicides, early disability retirements and claims, came to realize that mental health was too important to ignore, and certainly too important to stigmatize. Now, firefighters are actively encouraged to seek counselling when they need it, and unless mental issues become debilitating, it does not impact career progression.
There are any number of reasons for seeking mental health assistance. It could be that one particular incident was particularly traumatic, or that years of seeing and experiencing things most people can't even imagine, takes it's toll. Or, as Kelsey pointed out, that "ideal" mate isn't so ideal after all. Many times, issues can be resolved in a few visits, sometimes it's a lifetime of care. Just needing to seek out mental health help should not, in and of itself, be a disqualifier for duty.
Retired FF here, well said.
Truth. Every firefighter has that one call they will never unsee. Counseling can make the difference between a career ending emotional problem and an opportunity to become stronger.
Comment of the day. Exceptionally well put. Hope he sees the feedback. Especially this one.
Oddly enough with the little firefighting I've done the part of firefighting he mentioned was one of the least stressful parts. Going into a burning building, meh. Finding out later you missed someone or even a pet can rough even if there was no good way of getting it done. The afterward "what ifs" can be brutal.
@@brettfo Thanks!
One small correction to this video:
The FAA can and WILL screw you.
Tell me a government agency that doesn't?
Their motto; we’re not happy unless you’re not happy
Only if they get a chance, which is why so many "keep things quiet"
@@grandinosour These are a special breed.
And the FAA is different than other federal agencies how?
If you need help with mental health as a pilot you should NEVER tell the FAA. I'm a commercial pilot and every single pilot I know who's done that has either had their career straight up murdered or had to jump through such ridiculous hoops to keep flying that it's insane
That’s ridiculous, it should 100% be recorded on if it is serious be forwarded to the FAA, it should be treated the same as physical health
I just came here to see how solidly Kelsey is getting dragged on this one. It is going exactly as I expected. Carry on!
I think you've missed the point on this. Mental health is complicated and most people that need therapy can still do their job perfectly well. If they think that going and getting therapy might end their career, then they won't get it and they will carry on working as their health gets worse which is where the risks come in.
That's what he's saying.... But it's not as simple as this one change. It requires an entire industry changing their thinking.
I agree with what you're saying. Going to therapy is like going to any other healthcare specialist - getting checked out and getting support doesn't necessarily mean there's a serious issue. It can (and ideally should!) be preventative.
There's a huge difference between requiring people to report mental health diagnoses vs requiring people to report that they sought mental health care. Requiring pilots to disclose any visit to a therapist would be like requiring them to disclose every doctor's appointment they go to - it's invasive and stigmatizes people for seeking professional guidance or preventative care.
From the research I've done it seems the FAA doesn't actually require disclosing therapy unless they have a clinical diagnosis. However, from this video it sounds like a lot of pilots may not be aware of the distinction and/or that airlines may require more disclosure than the FAA.... and if that's true, it's absolutely a risk.
No, he isn’t missing the point.
“The guidelines, announced in March 2022, set an annual FAA hiring goal of 3% for severely impaired employees. The listed disabilities include psychiatric and intellectual impairments, complete and partial paralysis, blindness, deafness, missing extremities, epilepsy and dwarfism.”
If you want to roll the dice with a pilot whose elevator doesn’t go to the top floor. Thats your business, I want an old man who was in the service and knows his plane 100%.
Yeah an epileptic pilot, yeah great idea…
@@morganschiller2288 Kelsey is definitely missing a significant part of the point, or at the very least he has a severe misunderstanding of stress and other issues that may warrant seeing a therapist. Flying a plane or even driving a car is a stressful activity in the sense that it requires a higher level of awareness than you would usually have at rest. In normal conditions, that's not an issue, but if you're made vulnerable to stress by other factors in your life, it can become an issue.
There are also way more reasons for a pilot to see a therapist that shouldn't disqualify them from flying than there are reasons that should. Worst case scenario, it could be left to the therapist's discretion whether the meeting should be disclosed to the FAA or not.
This is the rare case where I disagree with Kelsey. I think pilots should be able to get mental help without risk of losing their medical. Once you report something on your medical, the risk of losing your medical is there, yeah it’s not automatic, but the processes starts where your medical is under review. Counselor’s are required to report risk of harm to self or others, but not every time seeing a counselor is about that.
You just hurt the cause of people getting the help they need.
it should go on the medical but should not lead to termination. Take away the fear that they lose their jhopb income and existence. Thats what the airline and we as passengers owe pilots in that predicament
Not everyone goes to a therapist because they are suicidal. They just want to talk through a problem. FAA want battery of tests and psychiatry reports. The faa has acknowledged that they have screwed up in the past in regards to this.
You are absolutely right. People go to counseling for a variety of different reasons.
I personally went to therapy just to parse through the feelings when it became clear my dad was going to pass in the next few years. Made a massive difference as it allowed me to have the hard discussions with him and my mother, plan and prepay the funeral. Sort out a list of songs he would like played and it allowed me to be strong on the day as I had already done my grieving.
@@finalfantasymad Sorry to hear of your dad's passing. My mum passed last month. A nurse friend of mine recommended getting a will and advance care directive which helped immensely in the past couple months.
EXACTLY. The FAA and airlines only need to know, if the therapist or doctor feels like they should be informed. Otherwise, you're asking pilots to just bottle it up, and explode, when the stress gets too high.
I am an airline pilot in Europe since 25 years and fly the same bird as this guy. I am also having a degree in psychology. All I can say is that many pilots I've met and worked with over the years have problems with alcohol and social things, and some really have problems with reality meaning "normal life". We pilots are good at certain things and have a different way of thinking about many things in daily life. On the other hand, I have many colleagues who think they are above certain things because we need to be confident, secure and awake. Some think they are special because they have just flown a heavy or super bird 12+ hours from A to B. Some are stressed because of scenarios or conflicting situations like failures or really crappy weather and low fuel, for example. Flight crews are selected and trained to deal with stressful situations. Nevertheless, pilots and flight attendants occasionally find themselves in situations that they perceive as critical and highly stressful or even life-threatening. The severe stress that is triggered as a normal reaction usually dissipates within a few days or weeks. However, if it is not dealt with properly, chronic symptoms can occur, which can manifest themselves in a severe reduction in quality of life, inability to fly and, in extreme individual cases, even in the form of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), which is difficult to cure and leads to incapacity to work. I've lost colleagues who couldn't fly after engine failures, and that also seemed like a normal, trained event, without any fear or danger. The constant lack of sleep can lead to fatigue syndrome and also depression. A friend of mine had stress symptoms after he once got bitten by a tiger moskito in Lagos, Nigeria resulting in serious health issues. Everytime he had a flight into the moskito zone he had sleepless nights. I don't think this video guy has the experience or expertise to pass judgement on this issue or the lawyer's experience. There are many pilots who need help. I am a CISM Critical incident Stress Management volunteer and have a tiny bit of experience with the effects of stress and the job of an professional airline pilot. Not every pilot needs a YT channel to talk about his great life and play the explanation bear. Don't be to polarizing. Life is not only black and white. Pilots are humans and should get help, especially they should have the freedom to take and get help asap and without prejudice. Greetings from germany.
The FAA 100% has created an environment that pilots don't ask for help. If you do ask for help for something like anxiety, be prepared to spend all your time and money to go through the hims program. We MUST have a better way for pilots to get help. He is not wrong about pilots and mental illness. Yes there are ways to get back into the cockpit but it's is NOT an easy process.
Can confirm
Yes this is what the guy was trying to explain but seems to shit the bed hard
Agreed. Lawyer did a poor job explaining the why. Kelsey’s perspective is really from the safest career in aviation. Imagine dropping 50-100K in student debt with a non FASFA 10-20% interest, to go through flight school, and the FAA pulls your license right after you get your commercial because you reported having depression five years prior. In most scenarios there’s no golden parachute that’s offered at some airlines (the medical insurance he talks about). That’s an insane amount of money time and energy invested with zero payout.
Since mental illness is pervasive, this seems like a great way to make sure pilots who inevitably have mental illnesses simply don't get help.
I don't want any of you lot flying if you are mental and depressed, and judging from these comment, at any time FOLLOWING the depression. You all appear to be reckless deceptive liars.
Somewhere around 30% of American adults have utilized a bout of therapy. Assuming pilots are just like other adults, well, I'd assume around 30% of pilots would use therapy if it were available to them. I'd call that both a significant number, and an exponential increase over the %age of pilots utilizing therapy today.
A Texas study last year found over half (56%) of pilots had avoided health care due to fear they would lose their certification to fly. The VA found that around 4800 pilots who were military vets were found to have failed to submit documentation regarding disabilities that they were *actively collecting disability pay for from the VA*. About 600 of these were commercial pilots, while the rest were in other capacities: cargo, tour flights, corporate clients, etc. Of these 4800 pilots, about 60 had their licenses taken from them as a result of the investigation.
Pilots avoiding health care due to fear they will lose their license is a real and significant issue, and it needs to be addressed. Just because you might be more resilient than the next guy, doesn't mean everyone is.
The postal service will let you see counselors, with masters degrees, at the postal service’s expense, and it’s confidential, unless you are a threat to anyone, including yourself.
So you are saying that someone with a disability that may impact their ability to be an airline pilot should not disclose that? Like what
@@christinecigan940 Re-read my comment. The numbers I brought show that 1) there is a huge fear among pilots that using medical services may result in them losing their license, or at least having to go through a hassle-filled process and 2) that a staggeringly small percentage of these folks are actually at risk of something that would affect them doing their job.
Airline pilots should have access to medical care like anyone else, and they would be subject to the same threat alarms that anyone else would be; I'm not a pilot, but if my therapist believed I was a threat to myself or others I'm certain that she would report that - every therapist I've ever gone to has started with that stipulation.
People respond to incentives, and right now the incentives are setup so that a pilot has reasonable disincentive to seek medical care. Maybe pilots at the majors are all at companies where they have generous insurance and aren't affected, but the majority of working pilots AREN'T providing passenger service, but are things like tour flight operators, or agricultural aerial sprayers, etc.
There was a medical study done on this a while ago regarding adhd, which i remember basically saying the FAA was creating unnecessary risk by essentially telling pilots "If you get treated or diagnosed, you're fired." due to their ban on adhd. The fact of the matter is, if someone fears the loss of their job more than the consequences of staying in that job to their personage, they will not leave that job, and therefore become an even worse problem to their workplace than if they just got help. We saw it with Germanwings, and we almost saw it again with Alaska Airlines. This simply isn't an environment conducive to safe civil aviation.
Is it purely coincidental that Kelsey posted this on the anniversary of the German Wings 9525 crash?
If you refer to a study (making it sound as if your comment is scientifical proved) then always add the link to the source (the study).
@@computerjantjeyoutube blocks links
@@computerjantjeunfortunately, youtube freaks out if i link these things apparently, but the citation is as follows
Baine Sellers, Focusing on ADHD: A Second Look at the FAA's Ban on ADHD Medication in the Cockpit, 78 J. Air L. & Com. 417 (2013)
in hindsight its a law study and not a medical but it's point stands anyways. People can and will hide it.
@@raiverns9620 good reply to my reply. thank you
Huge miss on this one. Saying the "FAA won't auto disqualified you" translates to "they will most certainly auto disqualify you, but can't say that for legal liability " just like every application has a box that says "having a felony won't disqualify you" and ask a felon how that works out... that phrase is a way of saying "if we have a VERY VERY COMPELLING reason to keep you then maybe".
this lawyer is right about importance of access to psychologists for pilots
Thank you! This one, if required to go, probably would be disqualified from piloting.
Okay, this is one of the few times I disagree with you... I'm going to die on this hill. There is a huge problem with how pilots and aircrew deal with mental health. I am not a pilot I'm a aircraft mechanic, but in the military I was a Blackhawk Crew Chief and I was basically kind of like a flight engineer, I guess would be the closest thing you can compare it to as a fixed wing commercial pilot. But with that being said we had kind of a peer like relationship with the pilots that we'd hang out with because we all worked so closely even though we were enlisted and they were warrent officers. I, much like a lot of people in the military went through a little bout of depression and they put me on an antidepressant when I talked to the doctor, which immediately grounded me. I was told that I was just going to be grounded to make sure that it wasn't worsening symptoms or anything like that. Cut to my next appointment with a new flight surgeon because the other one had just left and I didn't get my upslip back even though I felt completely fine and better than ever. I've been to the funeral of two pilots, great Pilots that I deployed with who ultimately took their own lives because apparently expressed through letters that they just couldn't do anything their career was going to be over. Also you seem pretty young and single and not having any issues and that's great but people are going through divorces Aviation is very rough on marriages, every time something goes wrong you're never home, a lot of people don't do well waking up in a hotel room not even knowing where they are for a minute. So while the active job I agree is not stressful if you know what you're doing I think it's fun, it's everything that goes with it. When this grounding happened to me everything was fine when I was on a flight because I was so focused on everything that was going on with the aircraft clearing obstacles Etc it was when I was done with a flight and then all of a sudden I would sink back into my hole. Also unless you went through the military there's usually a huge financial burden in the beginning of your career and it's rough. But I think that if the FAA could look at their regulations and become a little bit more realistic you wouldn't have Pilots having their spouses go in complaining of depression so that they can get medication for their pilot husbands or wives because yes that happens to and you can't tell me it doesn't cuz I have seen it on more than one occasion. I mean you can just RUclips Marry Schiavo, former Inspector General of the DOT talking about this. Maybe if the pilot sitting in the jump seat on that JetBlue flight wasn't sneaking around trying to find alternative treatments to his depression he wouldn't have been tripping balls in the cockpit, trying to reach for the t-handles to kill the engines. Just saying a lot of Pilots are ex-military and have deployed, and Ayahuasca does not show up in the prescription monitoring program that we're all part of now. I live in massachusetts, if I go into an emergency room in Seattle the doctors can see everything I've been prescribed. Sorry about that rant, now I'm going to finish watching because I'm only 37 seconds in. So if I look like a complete ass it's because I've only watched 37 seconds of the video so far it's just something that I feel really passionate about. And I'm not on trying to piss on you personally, it's just more of a general rant. We have very expensive FAA that we as Americans pay a lot of money for in this country and they really need to get with it and stop pretending that every pilot who is in the sky right now as you read this is doing all right as far as depression anxiety panic attacks..... you name it.
That's a big block of text... Paragraphs are great. Lol. You're right about the military and flying schedule side of things, it adds a lot of stress. Hopefully you were not permanently grounded and it's sad that your pilot buddies took their own life because they didn't have a way to get their mental illnesses checked into without fear of being permanently grounded.
By now you've seen the whole video so you know Kelsey didn't let up on bashing the attorney... Hopefully the FAA will loosen its rules on this so that pilots won't have to seek sketchy alternative treatments for depression like you mentioned.
way to much to read.
i have not started pilot training yet and the doctors i have to go see due to a diagnosis no longer effecting me from 7 years ago want me to pay 2 to 4k upfront just so i can try to get my medical. the worst part is that the FAA can still say no
You are 100% correct. I’ve been in the game for nearly fifty years and have seen this repeatedly. It’s not the actual job, which is fun, albeit a little unhealthy. It’s the effect on relationships and all the crap that goes with it.
Thank you. It needed to be said. You are real and have given us a valuable perspective. Well said.
actually, let's not enforce the idea that therapy is just for depressed, suicidal people. let's not enforce the idea that, because your job isn't "stressful" according to whatever, you shouldn't have stress from your job. *anyone* can benefit from having an unbiased third party organize your thoughts.
Right? This is such a stupid/harmful take :(
And like you said, the unbiased third party with no stakes in your life is sometimes a real blessing. The number of times my therapist pointed out some shitty behaviours from people around me... Gah! The number of times my therapist pointed out some shitty takes of my own, I was otherwise completely missing! Truly a privilege to have her available for an appointment at any time.
Take that up with insurance companies
@ghostratsarah since when has general out-patient mental health services require pre-authorization?
Sounds like paying for friends
thank you for your comment. So true
I think you might've misinterpreted his take as encouraging pilots to seek treatment without reporting or following the rules. I took what he was saying as "Pilots are fearful of seeking mental health treatment due to the current FAA Aeromedical system", which is absolutely true as evidenced by the FAA video you included. The FAA is behind the curve when it comes to mental health treatment, and we still need to find the right balance to ensure safety while also having a set of rules where pilots never feel like they need to hide anything from their AME. The steps to allow some SSRIs was a positive move, but I personally believe we can go further and still not decrease safety in aviation.
The German pilot who intentionally crashed his plane killing all of the passengers on board had been seeing mental health professionals, but due to privacy rules this could not be disclosed. His sessions did disclose that he was suicidal, as I recall. While there should be a line, pilots should be able to seek help without risking a career.
By definition, mandatory medical checks can end your career. The entire point of them is to make sure that one is fit to fly and unfortunately there are conditions which medicine just cannot fix.
Privacy laws are VERY different in Germany. In the US, a therapist has a duty to report that a client/patient is potentially suicidal or homicidal.
That was the GermanWings pilot who waited for the other pilot to leave flightdeck, then locked them out , and dove plane into the ground.
@@voomastelka4346does it matter he reported his and stuff like that but when it goes untreated and people are scared to report it to their job to get help through a therapist or something because of fear and that's not right
@@CiarraiAnn that's why then USA have such a big suciderate you're a doctor trust your therapist it's maybe taken a couple of months for them especially a man to build up trust to disclose you're feeling suicidal only to get a sudden letter etc that you're losing your license are you going to trust someone again I know I wouldnt
Kelsey, what would you do if a pilot you are flying with said, “Things are so stressful for me right now, my mother is struggling with dementia and my spouse has been diagnosed with cancer. However therapy I’m going to has helped a bit. Oh, the part about the therapy, keep that to yourself, I have not reported it, I don’t need the added stress of worrying about my pilots license.” What would you do?
That is a good question
FED!! FED!!! FED!!!
While I'm not ATPL certified, this is actually something i have thought about as well. Everyone defines stress different. Personally, if anyone i trust with my life is going to say something like this and knowing the background WHY it was not reported in - it's a WHOLE lot better than not going to therapy.
Nothing personal to you kelsey but I would not tell any other pilot, cabin crew, ground staff anybody eho worked at airport about going for counselling as you're always going to get one person who wants to score points with bosses and who will report it or will spread it round airport I'd just keep buttoned and tell noone it's like that in life there's only two lots of friends I'd trust enough not to give my life story away
Snitches get stitches
You’ve really missed the mark on this one, the FAA can say whatever it wants about how concerned it is of you mental health, and that is likely true to an extent, they’re really only concerned that you’ll crash a plane and the FAA will do everything in its power to prevent you from flying no matter how minor the mental issue is. It isn’t usually an “automatic” pull, but it is still quick and harsh all the same. They’re using specific verbiage and diction that doesn’t address pilot concerns at all. You still have to go through a ridiculous amount of hoops and expensive tests to prove you are airworthy, all the while unable to fly all because you maybe had anxiety as a kid. And you might say, “well that happened as a kid surely the FAA doesn’t care” but if you look around TikTok you can find pilots talking about having a therapist for anxiety prior to becoming a pilot and suddenly an AME does some digging and finds this out and tells the FAA who then yanks your med cert. That pilot as far as I know has been fighting the FAA for over a year to get his med cert back. And while the airlines are supposed to help you out, a year without flying goes beyond sick leave and I doubt that pilot has the same type of assurance you provided with coverage for medical disabilities as often mental disabilities are treated different, but even if they weren’t in this case and that pilot was covered - they will likely claim that this pilot didn’t disclose this to the AME when he first started flying which means it’s his fault and he’s not covered. That pilot is without pay or support and he is not the only one.
The thing you missed - and I’m glad you haven’t had to experience it, I hope I never do either - is ACTUAL experience with the FAA process. You got what the FAA says, but what the FAA does is something entirely different. What the lawyer is saying resonates with a lot of pilots because it would be nice to not have to report minor mental health issues to leave the FAA and its strict regime out of it. No pilot, and I’m sure this lawyer is included, is advocating for serious mental issues to go unreported, there are too many incidents of that leading to disaster. And while I am a student pilot and I can attest most of my stress comes from learning - actually flying the plane is not stressful - this job is a big responsibility especially at the commercial and ATP level and that can come with stress.
Since I’m so new to this field I want to divert to something I’m more familiar with, my past job. I used to work in a jail as a detentions deputy and we got paid pretty well to do it. You explicitly mentioned law enforcement was more stressful and since I’ve now done a bit of both I can bridge your comments pretty well I imagine. The reason we got paid well and the reason pilots get paid so much, is due to the danger and stress that comes with the job. Thing is, just like you say, day to day doing that job was not stressful. We would always tell new people you aren’t paid for the 95% of the time that things are going well, you’re paid for the 5% it doesn’t. And for sure there is less worry flying a plane than working a jail, because in jail you have to fix problems that can escalate a little more frequently. But as a pilot issues with the plane should always be at the back of your mind, you should always be prepared to encounter an issue, and I’m sure you are and I’m sure you often don’t stress about that overly but I imagine it still is in the back of your mind and whether you know it or not, that does impact you. That is exactly how it was in law enforcement. Most interactions and most days went by without issue, it was usually pretty easy going, but when it hit the fan it hit hard, and THAT was scary. Most people are able to compartmentalize this stressor and continue their tasks but these stresses can build with other stress and suddenly this job that you do well at and find enjoyable can quickly become very stressful and you might get anxious. Maybe you catch these stresses before they become a bigger problem - so why should the FAA care at all unless it reaches the point where you will struggle to do your job? The FAA doesn’t care if you take ibuprofen, but it does care if you take morphine. And rightfully so.
What everyone in these comments including me is getting at is that this issue is much deeper than “this job is very stressful and pilots should be suicidal sleep deprived abusers without interruption from the FAA” because that’s not what people are saying, we’re saying the FAA treats all mental illness as if your only capable of running a plane into the ground regardless of how minor that illness is which is wrong. They might treat mild anxiety - something akin to a cold - as if it were an ongoing heart attack but the difference is if you get treatment for the heart attack you can return with proper documentation that you’re good from your doctors. A psychologist could call you good and the FAA would ask you to prove it 100 different ways (hyperbole) before letting you think about planes again.
I think it would be great if you dug into this a little bit further because I’ll be honest this seems pretty superficial as of right now. I love watching your videos and I know you’re a great person, so I think it would be great to see you readdress this with more research. If you come to the same conclusions and you think the FAA is reasonable then that is great but you have to give much better reasons than you did here. I promise if you disagree with my inexperienced self I will not be hurt, believe me I’m very used to criticism from previous employment. But I think if you really dig into this topic you may feel similarly and may actually somewhat agree with this lawyer. And oh, I pointed out hyperbole earlier because I’m pretty sure the lawyer was using hyperbole saying it was physics defying - it’s more of a joke since most people joke that flying seems to defy gravity or physics. I used to work at the Air Force academy as well and I’m pretty confident all cadets had to take physics regardless of major so he is well aware of the four forces involved in the principals of flight. Fun fact, they all also had to take survival swimming. USAFA had a lot of funny required curriculum but it was all relevant to the mission in some way.
I look forward to your next video.
I think you missed the mark on this one. Yes the attorney did a poor job of explaining it, but from experience, I dealt with a bout of anxiety, and I was prescribed a medication for 90 days that millions of Americans take, and have taken for decades. When I disclosed it to the FAA, it started a Five year long battle back-and-forth with the FAA to approve my medical. I was literally on the medication for 90 days, but they held my medical up for over five years. This is exactly the reason why many pilots do not seek help for mental health.
Sooo.... You still crazy or what?
This is the type of issue that concerns me. I don't know that the answer is to keep the info from the FAA but the repercussions need to be proportionate to the issue. Base on prior experience I have seen many people can function fine (to those around them) without seeking treatment but they can function better with treatment. Being afraid to seek that treatment can lead to an unexpected outburst when things finally get to be too much. Something that could have been avoided with treatment. We maintain the aircraft why not the pilot?
Depending on the medication, there could be side effects they were looking for, even if it extended to five years with bureaucratic red tape
I think you are pretty off base on this take. Your definition of stress and/or amount of stress you can handle is not necessarily what others can handle. In addition, the level of stress you might face can change from day to day or even from flight to flight throughout the day and it's not just the stress of the job, all the stressors of your life can accumulate up if there is no outlet for it. What he's saying is not wrong, there is a lot of fear over losing your license or even getting it suspended and it prevents people from getting the help they need (not just mental health, but sometimes basic health as well). Let's face it, no one trusts the FAA when it comes to their license. Seeing a therapist without reporting it is a good thing...obviously, there should be guardrails. If a prescription is needed, that should be reported. If the therapist determines they are a danger to themselves or others, that should be reported. But, if you just need to work through stuff or need counseling, it should not be a problem.
Flying is stressful because of the workload that can be caused at once. Flying itself isn’t stressful, and that’s the case for most of the pilots I know (who happen to be in a more stressful environment than normal). It would usually be things happening outside of flying. To say flying itself is the cause of major stress or worry (which causes depression) and maybe anxiousness, is not normal. I think it is fair the FAA is concerned on that one.
And stress can be relative. I used to deal with insurance and would pitch to a company that was trying to deny benefits because of something like diabetes "would you rather have person who knows they have it and are taking serious steps to treat it, or someone who ignores it all together" I think the same now for pilots and going to see a mental health specialist. If some guy is all stressed out because of a death in the family or a pending divorce. Then why shouldn't that person be allowed to go and see someone without the added stress of possibly loosing his livelihood on top of it all.
I know someone who couldn't get her student pilot license because she reported that she had been to a therapist. She went for counseling because of specific temporary conditions in her life that she had difficulty dealing with. A few years later, when those conditions were no longer a factor, she decided she would like to get her pilot certificate. But the FAA said no, and even refused the appeal. So...be wise. If you really need therapy, go get it. But...
I know someone too. But they didn't get help for this reason and they are a pilot now. They still live with non-work related issue, Therapy could help. The lawyer is correct in the need, but wrong in the reasoning why.
@@TheKgilley I was going to add a similar comment someplace under this video, too. The lawyer seemed to be directly correlating want for therapy with stress of job. The want for therapy can obviously have nothing at all to do with the job, and is probably the case more times than not.
Then you have to play the game of hiring an attorney that specializes in aeromedical issues, who conveniently has contacts within OKC so you can jump through the many hoops to effectively have one of their doctors say that your original diagnosis/treatment was in error and you never actually had that problem. I know of a pilot who was diagnosed with ADHD and on disqualifying medication who thankfully had the resources to do just that. Now ask: Which doctor was correct? And if the original diagnosis was accurate, could they still have ADHD, but it is now untreated? And is that more or less of a risk to safety? The FAA's aeromedical system is severely flawed when it comes to mental health, but it's also not an easy fix since there aren't currently tests that can point definitively in one direction or the other for most mental health disorders.
Based on so many accounts of this, looks like I’ll never be able to get a pilot’s license of any sort at all. I suffer from a genetic form of depression. Untreated it is severe. But I was in therapy for a long time and together with the fantastic medical world we have now I got medication and I am super happy and content with my life now.
And this shows a major problem. If I never went to those medical profs and continued living my life as a hyper depressed person that is very good at hiding it, I could get into flying school just fine. Right now though? Completely fucked. Even though I went through years and years or effort of becoming better and now no longer suffer any of the problems I had before.
@@99domini99 You can't get a medical certificate through the standard process if you are on antidepressants, but the FAA has a Special Issuance process that can grant a certificate if you are on certain SSRIs. You need to have been on the medication for at least six months and have maintained a stable mood with no side effects.
I totally disagree with you on this one Kelsey (minus the physics part.) Most people see a therapist for anxiety/mild depression while some have serious mental health issues. An anxious person will by definition experience the demands of corporate differently than a person without anxiety making work a far more stressful experience. They will also have more anxiety about disclosing and the risks to their job, than a person without anxiety. Counseling is a great way to deal with that and not let anxiety invade every corner of a person's life. A good provider has an obligation to report anyone who they consider a danger to themselves/others regardless of what they do for a living. One option would be to have FAA certified therapists who are specialized on when to ask a pilot to take a LOA or report for their medical certificate, but a pilot can see them without having to put it on their medical certificate. My suspicion based on your video is that you have been blessed to not struggle with anxiety and never overthought everything in your life. Sadly, anxiety is a very treatable condition, but untreated it will fester and become an issue at work.
Speaking as someone who has experienced the endless joy of fighting the FAA uphill for an SI, it’s hell. One nurse stamps you with depression and right there you are judged and convicted. Odds are good you will battle to actually get your case reviewed. It took years to find out that because I refused an SSRI I was being rejected off hand. I completely understand the public safety concerns. Even if you are no threat of any kind, your not thinking clearly FULL STOP. The problem is this also seriously encourages even recreational pilots to remain silent, particularly if your anywhere near a medical professional of any kind. Anything you say can and will be used against you. The best thing you can have are good friends or family near.
This is the rub: "not thinking clearly." Pilots should get all the support they need for any mental health issues, just as everyone should. But that doesn't necessarily mean they should still be flying the aircraft. Whether it's safe for them to do so or not has got to be a horrendously difficult call to make...but as a frequent passenger, I'd prefer them to air on the side of safety.
@@JSu-here i can tell you this, if drivers were tested and approached like aviators at best one in ten motorists would be on the road. Your drive to the airport is by far the most dangerous part of the trip.
@@mikewaterfield3599 I'm not sure if that's an argument for not testing aviators or for testing drivers. 100% agreed the drive is more dangerous by far.
@@JSu-here its not really an argument for either. More highlighting how drivers licenses come in cracker jack boxes, and states keep lowering standards. What I don’t like is how literally in one case a nurse stamped a form, not a psychologist or even a doctor and then it was on me to prove I don’t have a mental disorder. It took years. Now we are being asked about pronouns and what our mental status is every time we go for blood work. “Not your damn business”, if your a nurse and sorry to say your normal blood chemistry is going to be determined by your chromosomes not you “preferred pronouns”.
My real point? Medical professionals have was too much lee way in areas they are neither trained in nor have the legal right to make a diagnosis of. Eventually, after years, the FAA relented. 20k in legal and medical expenses and four years later. Three times as many people die in car accidents than people who commit suicide with a fire arm. Yet we have all sorts of legislation to restrict guns, and lower standards for drivers at the same time. My point there? It’s not really about public safety, it’s optics. G.W. Himself admitted TSA was about making people “feel safe” more than being about actual security increases.
@@mikewaterfield3599 The world is a strange place these days. I get you re "optics."
9:45 You're failing to see here that, if the pilot is having mental struggles where reporting those would lead to them losing their license to fly, they'd be more likely to NOT go and see a therapist, which would most likely mean that they won't get the mental help that they need. This would also be a safety risk, because now you have ticking time bombs that have no avenue of getting the help they need. There have been plane accidents that can at least be partially blamed on the lack of proper mental care for the pilot.
Also, not all pilots are necessarily only afraid to lose their income (because as you say, the pilot will continue to get paid). The fear of losing the ability to fly itself can be enough.
That said, it's a delicate matter and not having to report itself indeed also has its negative consequences. I see some options to improve the system, but I doubt that they would fully solve the issue.
What ARE you prattling on about?
Too mentally unwell pilots are at the controls BECAUSE they can't seek help, knowing doing so would lead to their grounding. If you compare pilots to the average population of people seeking mental help, since none of them do, clearly that makes no sense. Pilots aren't superhuman who don't suffer depression, anxiety, mood disorder, etc. And they may self-medicate with alcohol (which is legal as long as they're clean when they arrive at the airport). It's a crazy system and needs to be addressed and changed.
This more proves his point that companies should be aware of people in this sort of mental condition.
@@johnnunn8688is there a part of the logic you can't comprehend or do you just not read English very well?
Most pilots seem to have a lot of mental control. It should be the duty of pilots to monitor one another, just watch out for the Max aircraft they seem to have a mind of their own. Maybe have. HAL computer monitoring you guys. The theme song is DAISY. 😂😂😂
You can’t separate the rest of your job from flying. Those stressors follow you into the cockpit.
Also, I don’t think you can just dismiss someones legitimate fear of getting their medical pulled. I think this is a little more complicated issue then both these guys make it seem.
I've been a fan of this page since I found it quite a while ago, HOWEVER... Kelsey completely misses the target here, and I cannot accurately determine whether he's 1)Over confident, 2) Pompous, or 3) Completely clueless about the human factor of flying. I dont necessarily like lawyers either, but this one is actually advocating for the Pilot industry. I am a full time fire officer and paramedic, and have been for 40 years. For anyone to say that mental health ISN'T a factor in todays world in my opinion is simply foolish and uninformed. Others mentioned about pilots being "human" and experiencing stress (except Kelsey apparently, he doesn't experience stress). You're having marital/relationship difficulties, alcohol problems, dealing with your kids, health challenges, financial problems, you name it. Would it help to go get a "tune up" with a counselor? You bet. No Brainer. But I guess you cannot as a pilot for fear of being reported to the FAA. That's tragic. I am not sure I would want a pilot who does not 'experience stress' flying me in an aircraft. Everyone experiences stress. Good stress, bad stress, EVERYONE. When you are skilled at a job; pilot, physician, paramedic, firefighter, etc, you push through your stress with your training, experience, and teamwork. People are not robots, maybe auto-pilots are, but humans experience stress. We can probably go over a number of cases where a pilot went off the margin because of a mental health crisis and augered in, went berserk, or in the case of Malaysia 370, sailed off into oblivion. Police Officers are similar to this pilot/mental health conundrum, that in some states if they are admitted to a hospital for a mental health issue, they lose their ability to carry a weapon (lose their job). . . . I think there is a compromise here where pilots can go for mental health care without being reported, UNLESS they meet some mandated reporting criteria; "you know Doc, I want to kill all these Disney fans going to Orlando"... Well Captain, you know those are the magic words where I have to report you.... But If a Pilot, cop, coal miner, whoever wants to seek some advice on how to keep their 15 year old from making them nuts, well that's a good thing, and no one needs to know that outside the couselors office..... bernie
Very well said. I do not understand what made him make this video, he seems out of touch, plus he sounds pompous and rude.
@@Standswithafistremembers I think he was reacting against what he saw as something that could make nervous flyers more nervous -- that's what he's usually reacting against in the TikTok roasts and such. It seems to be a particular concern of his. As he more or less said, he didn't like that the lawyer seemed to be suggesting that most pilots were on the verge of a nervous breakdown due to the excessive stress of their jobs. I don't think he's really trying to make some kind of profound statement on mental health care. I'd guess he regrets wading into it now.
Therapy can be preventative too
To have depression doesn't equal to be suicidal. The employees should be helped to be in a better physical and psychological health, not to worry on top of poor health.
Agreed, depression doesn't automatically equate to suicidal, but it sure can distract you from doing the stuff you normally do. There's no shame in seeking help while you're dealing with it.
I agree, I’ll add that something important which it seems not many in this comment section seems to be focusing on, which is stress outside of the job. Everyone including Kelsey seems to be way too caught up on the “flying is/isn’t stressful” bit without considering personal/non-flying related work stressors that can cause depression, anxiety, etc. In fact, I can’t think of one case where the primary reason a suicidal pilot ended things was because flying itself was stressful (granted nobody can speak for them and I’m not in their heads, but there’s usually extenuating circumstances uncovered).
You’ll never convince even one passenger to get aboard an aircraft with a pilot identified as having “depression”. There’s a semantic problem here too, as being depressed for a reason (divorce, dog died) and clinical depression are not the same thing.
It’s not just suicidal ideation that’s the issue. Distraction and the inability to concentrate, which are far more common, can’t be safely in the cockpit. If you fall off your desk chair as an accountant or car salesman, the entire office doesn’t erupt into a ball of fire.
@@rbeard7580 Some Psychologists have started referring to it as "LOMO" or low-mood, rather than depression, because depression is a clinical diagnosis, where as everyone suffers from LOMO at times to varying degrees. And LOMO doesn't require medication or ongoing treatment and support.
ok so maybe the lawyer could have elaborated more clearly but his point is still the same. pilots are human and have stress and struggles like everyone else and the "why" shouldn't matter. everyone should feel safe being able to seek out help. mental health really needs to be de-stigmatized.
i agree with you but the lawyer is advocating for the complete removal of ANY requirement to report mental health issues to the FAA REGARDLESS of the issue, that's is simply too far an extreme for me, yes we are talking about people dealing with stress or everyday issues like most people do, but we are also talking about the very slim number of people who can develop serious issues such as hallucinations or suicidal behaviour. there needs to be a balanced solution that represents the interests of both pilots and the body that is supposed to ensure passenger safety.
simply removing all oversight of this issue and any legal ability for therapists to notify safety organisations of dangerous behaviours by pilots without getting sued for breaking HIPPA laws doesn't help anyone, and if it leads to an incident how much stigma do you think companies would put on all pilots seeking treatment after that?
its a complex issue that needs a complex answer, not overzealous advocacy that is only concerned with getting the best for "your side" as demonstrated by the lawyer.
@@Simon-hb9rf it should be the decision of the medical professional who counseled you. Not some paper pusher up the bureaucracy career ladder.
Boo hoo. Everyone is competing in the victim olympics these days, and depressed because they're only the runner up.
@TealJosh I suppose if pilots were allowed to see only therapists authorized by the FAA that could work.
@@TealJosh i agree in theory again though my issue is how that would work in practice, the fact is a therapist doesn't understand the requirements of the job and what would constitute a safety issue, personally i think the only fair way would be for therapists to report diagnosed conditions or any concerns to an oversight board that consist of both experienced pilots and experienced therapists (as well as representation from the pilots unions) to decide what if any "red lines" there are, for example anyone suffering hallucinations, paranoid delusions, suicidal ideation etc would be taken off active status and given a medical leave.
the fact is if i have an eye test and suddenly need glasses to see or if i start experiencing unexplained blackouts i am legally required to inform the DVLA who may add a condition to my driving licence or revoke it entirely. mental health is just as serious to maintain as physical health, and despite the stigma attached to mental issues we cant hide away from that reality, especially when it comes to the safety of hundreds of people relying of the ability and condition of only two individuals.
i think the real key here is ensuring that the mostly minor and temporary mental health issues most people suffer at some point (especially those working in high stress environments) can be effectively diagnosed and treated with minimal disruption, and where suspension of flight status is deemed necessary that a clear and simple path back is not only provided but highlighted to pilots.
also as i said in my original comment completely removing the rules that require therapists to report to an official body (as advocated by the lawyer in the video) would legally force them to never say anything, if they don't have a specific legal duty to report certain issues then patient confidentiality would always win out therapists would be unable to tell anyone or face punishment themselves. there are specific legal "carve outs" for therapists to notify someone if they believe a patient is a danger to themselves or others, but that process doesn't allow therapists to do what they think is best only to notify specific parties as laid out in the law.
sorry that got a bit long but hopefully i did a better job explaining my position this time.
Kelsey, im sure that as a senior Cargo captain, maybe your life is less stressful (and even then, you dont get tired?), but for us with our Loans, low seniority, and shit schedule, along with everything we carried into the career with us, i know plenty of people who would benefit from seeing a therapist once in a while without fearing for their entire livelihood. He might not be eloquent, but you sound pretty entitled in plenty parts of this vid.
Man, you're sure a very trusting guy. I hope you never get shown the darker side of this topic...
Respectfully, this would be one of those scenarios in which you, a young, happy guy living the dream, flying some of the coolest planes in the world and not facing the stress of a family (as far as I know), should probably just keep your mouth shut.
This guy is trying to help your peers and colleagues, bro. Maybe try not to bite the hand that may one day feed you?
^Well and kindly said. This video felt like hastily picking a fight where none existed and throwing together a somewhat slapdash and definitely naive treatment of a serious and highly nuanced topic. Ease and health are a privilege clearly on display in this one.
@@AVisionInFur Also well said.
I much prefer Petter's more nuanced take on it over at Mentour Pilot.
Kelsey should watch that... it might be harder to dismiss a narrative that runs counter to his own, coming from an experienced training and check ride captain, and a peer on RUclips as well.
I would feel sooooo much better knowing that my pilot has their mental health under control, than them keeping it to themselves. I suffer from depression and anxiety on a daily basis, the one thing that helps me stay sane is knowing my medication is working as it should be.
There have been a few crashes due to someone's mental health taking over their last flight. I think the FAA needs to know if a pilot is OK to do their job.
The whole point of the lawyer's argument is that if a person risks losing their license by going to a therapist, they are going to be dissuaded from doing that, and at least his position is that there are a significant portion of pilots avoiding mental health care for this reason. This applies to pretty much any law imposing the possibility of rights restriction by going to get mental healthcare, the people it is most likely to dissuade are the ones who are most likely to have a problem.
So according to Kelsey, if you are doing a desk job and don't have to fight with criminals or fire, then your job is not stressful. If only that was true!!
A desk job is not inherently stressful for everyone or that many. That is also the point Kelsey was making about being a pilot.
@@Frank_Nemo According to the Department of Labor, 5 of the 10 most stressful jobs in the US are desk jobs.
@@darkpyr01Stressful because the coffee pot is empty, because the pencil sharpener is broken, because they don't have a cordless mouse, etc. We, in the US are turning into a nation of whiny, sniveling, babies. We can't work overtime because it's too hard. We can't work outdoors because it's too cold/ hot, or raining. This nation would never have been built if it had to be built by the modern workforce that we find in desk jobs. Less and less Americans are capable of working in the agriculture, mining, logging, or fishery industries. Any job that requires hard labor is "too hard" for the majority of Americans today. I work in an industry that requires moderate physical labor from the production force, and new hires walk off the job after half a shift or maybe a full shift. Very few last a full week. We are now installing robots because they don't quit. It is pathetic what the people of this once great country have become.
@FRLN500 My man. I worked as a mechanic in aerial wildland firefighting, working 110 hour weeks for 6 months, and 70 hour weeks for the other 6 months, for 5 years. I worked more overtime than regular time throughout the year. I got to breathe smoke all day, in areas that were evacuated because it was at a toxic level for half the year. I spent 5 years in the Marine Corps before that. I feel like I'm relatively qualified to talk on stressful jobs, and jobs that require a lot of work. So now, with that context out of the way, so you know I'm not just some "whiny, sniveling baby, who can't work overtime because it's too hard, and who can't work outdoors because it's too cold, too hot, too wet, etc.
First and foremost, if the department of labor lists those jobs in the top 10 most stressful jobs, I believe them. Just because someone isn't literally at risk of dying at any moment in their job doesn't mean that it is impossible to feel high levels of stress. There have been studies about this, which is what the department of labor was going off of. So pardon me for not taking your word on what jobs are the most stressful over that of several researchers and the department of labor. And I'm not even going to get into the comment about building the nation.
Second, just because a job isn't physically difficult doesn't mean it isn't difficult. Though, to be honest, there have also been studies showing the hardest jobs on your back are office jobs.
I respect the men and women on the ground, sweating and bleeding as a regular part of their jobs. My job history gives me firsthand knowledge of what that type of job is like. It absolutely sucks sometimes. But to be honest, I don't have the sense of dread thinking about the job that a lot of office workers have. Because overall, the job was great. Did I have to work? Yeah. Absolutely. Did I get to wait till the rain or the snow stopped? No. But some of the best experiences I've had, the ones that will stick with me forever, have been made with my boys in miserable conditions.
Funny, I was an IT project manager for a dozen years. There were some weeks where I looked at the coming week and the stress of being in meetings while having to explain to the heavies that the project was screwed and it was their fault because they didn't make the decisions that needed to be made on time. I would literally puke in my shower from that anticipated stress. Now I am an airline pilot, and though there are times of higher stress (going into LGA with windshear a month ago) I don't have nearly the level of constant background stress.
I think Kelsey missed the point a little bit here. The co-pilot of Germanwings flight 9525 had a condition that said if he were to be diagnosed with depression ever again he would be barred from flying forever. Do you think he would've gotten help if he didn't have this condition? This is an extreme example, but there is an environment created by the FAA (and other aviation authorities in the world) that prevents pilots from seeking help, even for small things. Similar story with the pilot in the Alaskan Airlines flight earlier this year. If that pilot actually felt more comfortable seeking help, and knew it wouldn't risk his job, the incident could have been prevented. We have to find the right balance between stopping people who are too mentally unfit to fly, and creating an environment that allows pilots who are fit to fly to seek help.
Kelsey, I happen to know Joseph LoRusso directly and have corresponded with him on the matter of medical certification several times, and I can say that him, others in our group and myself have seen the absolute worst of it. You make some valid points but if you haven't been exposed to what we have (and God willing you never do) then please do not criticize us for our plight. Rather, I encourage you to contact Joseph or anyone in our camp if you'd like to know more about what we've been through.
Thank you.
I'm a CFI. When instructing students and helping them learn to land, I have to back off and let them land the plane. I'm ready to jump on the controls if they are making a serious mistake, but you have to let your students do the landing. That IS stressful.
I bet... I'm about to start my CFI training and the only thing I am not looking forward to is teaching somebody how to land... Everything else is easy to learn eventually.
It's also important that people know you can see therapists for quality of life improvements and not only for disabling conditions. If you are grieving the loss of someone and want help, there are therapists who specialize in that. There are marriage counselors. If you have a child or family member that is behaving in a stressful way, there are family counselors or personal counselors. If you are in a situation where you're living but not thriving because of some mental blocks, a therapist can help you overcome that.
It's like seeing a doctor for a medical condition that's bothering you but not upending your life. If it doesn't get better on it's own, why not see a doctor to get it looked at? Better to get it fixed than keep dealing with it.
Well said
The lawyers point is they can't do any of that without reporting it to the FAA. So pilots can't go see one about something minor, or even just for a checkup, without reporting it. He is arguing for more privacy for pilots, and while his reasons might have some inaccuracies, I'm surprised Kelsey would argue against him like that. Just because Kelsey isn't stressed while flying and in need of help, it doesn't mean other pilots aren't. But if they can't seek help without explaining themselves to all their superiors, we end up with MH370 situations.
This is why the lawyer is saying pilots shouldn't have to disclose.
Captain Kelsey seems to disagree and thinks if you have a mental issue that it's okay to go to therapy but your company will ground you, you'll use up all your sick and paid time off, then after a couple weeks or a month you will be better and cleared to fly again.
That is not how any of that works. As you stated, there are other reasons one might go to therapy then "serious problems" which could make someone unfit to fly. Also, regardless of the reason for therapy it isn't going to fix someone within a couple of weeks. Even if it did help within that time period, the FAA isn't going to let you appeal your medical for 90 days. At which point you wouldn't have enough PTO to cover that leave and your company would fire you as they don't have an unpaid leave policy.
Furthermore, as other commenters have pointed out, short term and long term disability is not automatically covered if a pilot loses their medical. If they lose a limb or an eye then yes but it'll be denied for mental health as a person could still PHYSICALLY do their job (even though the FAA finds then unfit).
So true!! The loss of a friend is what I needed to talk to someone about. It was truly grief
Kelsey, I think you've got it very wrong on this one. The FAA's medical side is basically set up to fuck anyone who isn't absolutely 100% normal and healthy over if they are fully aware of and seek treatment for their problems, with mental health being the absolute worst part of the system. Here's an example from my own life: In the mid-90s, I was seriously considering getting a license. Maybe not to make a career out of flying, but at least to get my private ticket. Even got a couple of introductory lessons with logged time, and the instructor even had me fly the landings on them (he was *very* closely guarding the controls). Thing is, I have ADHD (among other issues that weren't yet known at the time), and was on medication for it... and I found out that if you have ADHD, you're in a complete Catch-22 situation. Specifically... untreated ADHD is a disqualifying condition for any level of medical certificate; if you have it, you can't get a medical and thus can't fly. However, all approved medications for treating ADHD are on the FAA's Prohibited Substances list, so if you *are* being treated and the FAA demands a ramp check piss test, you'll get your license suspended as a disciplinary action for flying under the influence of a prohibited substance.
Result: I can't get a medical without treatment, but I can't take my medication and still be allowed to fly. I'm forced to give up on my dream of ever getting to putt-putt around in a Cessna for recreation and/or personal travel, because the FAA *claims* that there's a way to get your medical with ADHD, but has something in place to ensure that you'll never actually be allowed to fly if you have it. Exactly the same bullshit that anyone with any other mental health issue (or, for that matter, neurodivergent tendencies) faces from the FAA's medical side--claims that it's not automatically going to get you grounded, but a system that's explicitly designed to ensure that you will *effectively* get grounded permanently.
I vote for the public safety.
Kelsey I feel like you really missed the mark on this one. Are you basing your entire viewpoint on this based on personal experience? Because it seems like you've never had mental health issues before in your life. The FAA can say they're "committed to prioritizing pilot mental health" all they want, but the reality is that so many pilot's are still getting screwed and don't feel safe seeking out help when they need it.
Get lost babe…you must be a democrat
@@SpeednAngels410
Wow! That was a real mature response to a very real serious problem. I'm sure your mom would be very proud of you.
How does that saying go? Sticks and stones.....?
What the hell does this have to do with politics, you knuckle dragger.
@@SpeednAngels410talk about ignorance. Geez.
The stress does not need to come from the job, stress can come in all sort of forms. in that regard i would agree with the guy that therapy would be helpful to a lot of people, and that includes pilotes. therapy doesnt need to fix problems, it can also prevent problems.
1 out of 9 commercial pilots are experiencing depression and 4.1% have had suicidal thoughts. Pilots need to be able to go get therapy without it even being a question for their medical certificate.
I got news for you, it’s not just stress of the job that can cause depression. It could be any number of things in life.
1. Where’d you get that stat
2. Would you ever get in a plane knowing the pilot in that cockpit is suicidal?
@@aspiringcaptain I edited the stats after rereading the study. This is cited from:
“Airplane pilot mental health and suicidal
thoughts: a cross-sectional descriptive
study via anonymous web-based survey”
Finally, I don’t understand how your question bears any relevance on the matter whatsoever.
Would I fly next to or be flown by a pilot that I knew had suicidal thoughts? Probably not. But that’s not the issue. The issue is that there ARE pilots flying that have suicidal thoughts but they don’t disclose that information because they know that it could jeopardize their certificate. Furthermore, they don’t get the help they need to treat that condition, for the same reason. The FAA‘s position on the issue is completely ineffective because it restricts pilots from getting the help that they need while simultaneously failing to promote safety because pilots will just not self report their problem or go to therapy.
@@aspiringcaptain it's properly correct Google how many people an hour in UK take their lives answer about 4 an hour so maybe 60 a day say one thousand eight hundred a month so some of those will be pilots some will brother jobs where you have means if fatally doing it ie doctor, surgeon, vet, paramedic etc
Yeah and someone could get a depression and psychosis (where they want to crash the plane) from completely different reasons than being a pilot, maybe it's in their genes to get schizophrenia or maybe they smoked too much pot and started to see things. A pilot having something like that going on with them would be very important for their boss to know and of course unless you're a sociopaths who doesn't care about your passangers safety you would want your boss to know too and to not fly if you're not mentally fit. Of course I don't think they should just kick out a pilot with mental health issues but perhaps find something else to do until you get better.
@@teijaflink2226 well having a previous diagnosis of schizophrenia or psychosis, is already a disqualifying condition for pilots. Really what I am addressing, is that regular pilots who might be in a depressed state should be able to go to a therapist and get treatment. Without having to report it.
Many people can recognize their descent into further states of depression, long before they reach as suicidal position. When somebody starts having regular thoughts of suicide, that’s an ideal time to begin therapy to ameliorate this condition. It’s this type of treatment sequence that would create a ton of problems for a pilot and the retention of their medical certificate.
Adore you, but I do think you missed on this one a bit. The Lawyer grouping all pilots together and assuming there are tons of pilots who aren’t getting help was a point of frustration for you, but I think you did the very same thing in saying that there aren’t a lot pilots out there in that situation. Reading through the comments of some very wise, experienced people in your industry shows that this issue is clearly much more complex than either you or the lawyer gave space for.
Like I said, I adore you and respect the hell out of you. I just encourage you to look into this one a bit deeper. It’s glaringly clear just in these few early comments that there is an issue with how the system handles these situations. You have a voice and a platform that can and has done a lot of good for your industry, as well as us white-knuckled, arm-rest-gripping common folk in 27D that can stare at that lift chart for years and still consider flying a complete miracle of the most mysterious kind. I think this issue of mental health within the flying industry specifically, is an incredible opportunity as well, and I do hope for more discourse and action so that everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, can get help when they need it. And that the people who don’t need help at the moment can respect and leave space for those that do.
I agree with everyone else who’s commented, you got this one wrong. Whether the stress comes from the job or just life, pilots should be able to talk to a therapist without worrying about losing their medical. I think your next video should be a sit down with this guy and have a discussion about aviation medicals.
I would enjoy that video. These are things that should be talked about. These pilots are human beings with life stresses. They shouldn't have to worry about losing the ability to feed themselves and their families because the FAA is anxious over seeing therapists.
People need the opportunity to talk to someone without the risk of loosing your job. A truck driver or any other industry worker can cause a lot of damage as well. People need an outlet - and I believe if you can get the help early on, it can circumvent bigger problems later. He went over the top, but the basic idea is noble.
A note on mental health (especially for men).. It has been said many times but we definitely let things snowball and go too far. Depression and stress can present themselves subtly, so it's a good thing to keep an eye on mood, and how you're feeling day to day. There's something to be said for taking the heavy load and being the rock for your family, but you're still human. Seek help if you need it. Whatever situation you're in, the light shines through eventually.
Oh Kelsey.. this is the first time I have to say youre wrong. Stress cant always be handled by making changes, I cant change loved ones long terminal illness or death, how other people act or any circumstances outside of my reach. Stress, anxiety and depression comes in many forms and from many places, just because youre not affected by it, doesnt mean no one else is (tho Im happy for you). I dont think pilots are the only humans who are able to manage their mental wellbeing alone, but it kinda seems they are asked/forced to do it. If being a pilot and flying is big part of your identity, are you really willing to risk it? Would flying a table really be an option, because youre going thru a rough divorce and feel somewhat lost? I honestly dont think so, it just adds to it. This is what this lawyer is trying to change, for a good reason.
The pilot that thinks therapy makes you a danger is the dangerous one. They will never reach out for help and end up being one of the over 50% of pilots that refuse healthcare for fear of losing their career.
I don’t think he meant it literally defies physics dude, he was describing how it FEELs, it’s just colorful language to try and reinforce the relevant statement he was making about how stressful it is.
He’s a lawyer after all, colorful language and strong emotional appeal is one of their strongest traits lol.
That’s right!
Sure, but it doesn't help his credibility. Defying gravity... ok.
As a MAN, you don't go about carrying on in the world based on FEELINGS. I would surmise that the glorified FEELING based mental mindset is a contributing factor to this mental health crisis that appears to be in vogue. It's pathetic.
@@livestock9722 feelings are going on in your mind absolutely non stop, dude. they impact everything you do. being emotionally constipated has a lot of very bad effects. but keep believing that
@@carb_8781 "feelings" do not require a reaction. It's not all that hard to observe, and speculate how they will affect you. Trouble is, most of the soft minded populous is too lazy to do that. Granted it's a habit that requires cultivation, but now society rewards those who are victims by their own doing. It's pathetic. Time to put your big boy pants on bud.
It's not defying physics or defying gravity. It's using physics to overcome gravity. Because science is cool like that!
This!
Not defying physics but defying gravity is kinda accurate.
YEP . Kelsey's very first point was exactly THAT .
@@VanquishedAgainNot really. Planes can only generate lift from air flow; the mass of Earth keeps the air molecules attached and a whole bunch of other nerdy stuff. More accurate to say the plane is using gravity effectively.
It should be incredibly obvious that the lawyer is exaggerating for effect, not literally trying to convince anyone that planes don't obey the laws of physics.
Many years ago, I read the book 'The Right Stuff' by author Tom Wolfe which also became a movie in the eighties. The book, in particular, focussed on the dread that pilots (in this case military test pilots) had of showing any indication of "coming apart at the seams' mentally. I think it's an affliction that many men have in different walks of life. I'm fairly 'robust' but during a very rough patch in my marriage, I knew I needed some counselling when I sat through two changes of traffic light signals without realising it until the driver of the car behind me knocked on my window to see if I was ok.
Look at the statistics for pilots who don’t report issues to their AME, and those who avoid treating mental health issues. There have been articles in AOPA on this recently.
Kelsey, sorry bro, you're wrong this time. There are significant psychological stresses that come with this job (I agree that "defying physics" and being responsible for the passengers aren't typically among them). Pilots suffer from depression and other maladies just like everyone else, but the FAA has all but closed off any way of getting the same help available to anyone else. That in and of itself magnifies the problem. I've already buried too many pilots that I know personally, lost to suicide. We will never know if they'd still be with us if they weren't concerned, rightly or wrongly, with losing their livelihood. If this lawyer wants to shed light on a topic we as an industry have ignored for too long, then let him. You are not helping by minimizing it.
You are very much so correct.
yup. every pilots has different stress level
You sound like a bad pilot
@@Metal999esm It's exactly this attitude that has driven pilots' mental health considerations underground. The whole macho, I can handle anything attitude has gotten people killed and ruined the lives of countless others.
As a professional pilot for more than 30 years, I have nothing to prove to you, sir. You'll have to walk in my shoes for a few decades before I'll consider your judgement worthy of consideration.
@@jeffg7 doubtful you're a real pilot.
You work at the intersection of several giant bureaucracies, and you really can't see why reporting any mental health care you seek to them? These organizations are almost designed to fuck with people in this way.
And, of course, if a pilot says they're suicidal, someone should be told about that, BUT it's nuanced like everything else. If I'm seeing a therapist for my mommy issues (of which I have plenty), I see no reason anyone but me and my therapist need to know anything about it.
Look at the military, which is trying to change, but slowly, the catastrophic view of seeking help with your mental health being a reflection on your fitness to do the job, and careers are lost because of it.
I went to therapy because I lived for years in a dark suicidal depression. I also went because I had these weird fears left over from childhood, where I hated to put my feet down next to my bed because I feared the monsters who lived under it. I'd say there's a qualitative difference between those things and having to be worried some medical bureaucrat might have a bias against therapy of all kinds and make trouble for me because I watched too many horror movies when I was young is not something I should have to deal with. I just would live with the fears.
The postal service will let you see counselors, with masters degrees, at the postal service’s expense, and it’s confidential, unless you are a threat to anyone, including yourself.
@@sludge8506 Right? Unless I'm a menace or might fuck up dangerous or important stuff, it's nobody's business at my work!
nobody in the comments section knows what a “mandated reporter” is huh? i feel like a lot of people are really just proving the point that mental health is brushed aside and minimized
@@emrysj4388 Exactly, all that would need to happen is to address specific needs for pilots, so mandated reporters would know when to report and when to keep it private. And, yes, I agree mental health is brushed aside, and that is awful, yet I think a far more dangerous and important issue is fearing and demonizing mental health work.
People fear it so much. "I don't want a pilot with anxiety," they'll say, not thinking that, like depression, anxiety means A LOT of different things. It's a spectrum like so much.
I couldn't give less of a shit if my pilot is working her shit out with a therapist. In fact, I'm happy about it, because that means they'll have less to distract them in their jobs! Just make sure the therapist gives the right person a call if that pilot has a psychotic break and hears their cat telling them to crash the plane. I'd rather that not happen, if possible.
@@pocketlama yup yup yup; pilots should have the opportunity to go to therapy (related or unrelated to their jobs) without fearing for their careers. there are things mental health professionals are legally and ethically required to report, like if someone is actively suicidal or homicidal. these rules literally already exist for every mental health professional with clients who are not pilots. why people assume that “privacy” means: “if a pilot says ‘i’m going to kill myself on my next flight’ the therapist shouldn’t say anything to anyone” is beyond me. i think a lot of nuance was lost in the video and honestly i hope cpt. kelsey is taking the time to read through all our comments.
“The only time you have been stressed who has been sitting behind you is when a flight attendant is raring your landing” wow this is just shows the personality of this guy. Ego is definitely huge.
That's not how therapy works. You don't go in suicidal and get told they'll see you next Tuesday.
well technically it is. firstly if there was no legal requirement to notify the FAA. HIPPA laws would prevent the therapist from being able to tell anyone without a legal requirement to do so, so it would be entirely up to the pilot to voluntarily report it and allow the company to act in some way. and just because you tell a therapist you are suicidal doesn't mean they can automatically do anything about it to stop you walking out the door at the end of the session (i have personally done exactly that). the threshold for committing someone for their own safety is very high.
there needs to be a balance between allowing people to feel safe to get help in order to maintain a healthy mental state and ensuring that people suffering with serious issues that are a threat to safety (i.e. suicidal behaviour or hallucinations etc) aren't then given a responsibility for hundreds of human lives.
as someone with a lot of experience with therapy and dealing with mental health issues, there are some things that should preclude people (like me) from such a role just as if i was physically unable or indeed simply unqualified to perform the duties required.
@@Simon-hb9rf I wasn't talking about vague suicidal ideation, but rather an actively suicidal person, with means and a plan. HIPAA (FYI, it's two As, not two Ps) contains an exemption for disclosures required by law, and any time a person is deemed a danger to oneself or others, the law requires a licensed healthcare practitioner to escalate/report.
Of course, there is a lot of room for interpretation of what constitutes "danger", but the bar of discretion would be much, much lower in the case of, say, an ATP pilot.
As someone who has gone through a period of depression and anxiety, and did so following the FAA’s guidelines to the letter… yeah, they will absolutely feed you to the wolves. The FAA says one thing publicly for appearance sake, but does another behind closed doors. I know, you’re shocked right. Who knew!
So I was dealing with this depression and anxiety. Not suicidal or anything of that scale. But enough to warrant an SSRI to help me get over the hump. The FAA allows for one specific SSRI for a pilot to be on without risk of losing their medical. So I told my doctor I need to be on that specific one if I was going to take anything.
Upon telling the FAA, along with a psych evaluation stating I wasn’t a danger to anyone and was mentally fit to fly… the FAA yanked my medical anyways. Needless to say this absolutely did not help my anxiety or depression.
The FAA told me I had to be off the SSRI for 6 months before they’d let me reapply. I called them to ask “Wtf???” because I was taking the sole SSRI they themselves approve for pilots. Their response was basically “Oh yeah totally, the SSRI is approved. But you need a waiver from us first. But since you’re already on the medication, you cannot get a waiver.”
Absolutely nowhere on the FAA site is there mention of a waiver required PRIOR to being on their approved SSRI. You only find this nugget of truth from the horse’s mouth once you’ve got the meds in hand and tell them.
And this sets up a perfect storm situation. A pilot loses their medical after doing everything the FAA says to do. To get the medical back, they have to go off of a medication they should be on for their own mental health and wellness. A medication which numerous doctors have signed off on saying it makes this pilot fit for service.
So stay on the meds, looking after your own well being… or go off the meds and risk a downward spiral for the sake of keeping a roof over your head and providing food for your family?
The stereotype of the self medicating pilot with a severe alcohol problem exists for this very reason. The FAA doesn’t give a flying f**k if you’re got a drinking problem. Just obey the bottle-to-throttle rules and they’ll look the other way. But seek out professional help and follow their guideline in doing so, and they’ll nail you to a cross.
Long story short, on this the lawyer isn’t wrong. If the FAA was more accepting of these things like EASA is, pilots would be better for it. Hell the entire industry would be better off. But they aren’t and pilots learn to keep these things buried.
It's the put up or shut up mentality of that FAA and their supporters that causes these issues. They and everyone else that thinks that suffering from anxiety automatically means that you're going to become suicidal needs to stop being so full of themselves. I see so many comments on this video of people implying that any indication of being mentally unwell means that you're a danger to everyone around you. Those commenters are part of the problem.
Thank you for posting this. Definitely a parallel to my own experience. Mild anxiety bc my job stability was threatened due to Covid. I talked w my Dr about it in a routine physical and he suggested I try half a therapeutical dose of Lexipro. I tried it, my job situation was sorted out, and I started to ween off it it when I mistakenly got my first aviation medical.
Followed their instructions to the letter and asked if they needed anything else. Go no reply for a few weeks. Called someone and they said I didn’t provide enough detail (like my initial intake form for this Dr and every appointment since). All things were easily obtained but they had to make me wait to ask them.
Again, I followed their instructions to a T.
Anyway, I’m flying now but not without the entire process being a massive pain.
I can clearly see why pilots choose to not “self report” their meds.
All I was trying to do was to fly a 150. The whole thing was unnecessary. Also, the AME knew I was weening off the meds and didn’t help me by saying I could come back in a month or two and try again. Super frustrating.
@@robbyyant6213
Pretty much. Kelsey echos these sentiments as well in the video, quite proudly too. Kinda sad really. I hope he never has to find out the hard way just how wrong he is.
@@Mulcbone
Yeah I was in the same boat. I was working overseas on rotations, and Covid pulled that rug out from underneath me. Can’t work overseas when international flights are grounded. So the company laid me off, and no one was hiring locally. Covid gutted the niche aviation industry I operate in, and that’s where it all began to unravel for me. Anxiety, depression and clinical insomnia. A fun time it was not lol. Especially the insomnia, I wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy.
Took the better part of a year to get my medical approved. After the 6 months passed I reapplied and was denied again. Told to reapply again in 90 days, which I did. Denied again. Another 90 days and finally approved, with the caveat that I send a letter from the doctor every 6 months for the next FIVE YEARS that I’m still off the meds and not completely bananas as a result.
I do know a pilot that won’t go to therapy because he is afraid to lose his license. He is on the spectrum and struggles with some OCD at home mostly around kitchen things. He’s a single engine pilot that flies skydivers and sightseers in a vacation area. He’s mostly happy with his job and less stressed there. I have tried to convince him to go anyway but he’s convinced the faa will take his license. So he avoids his kitchen and eats a lot of takeout and bottled juices and waters.
people need their privacy when they are acting in a way in which they are ashamed. It’s human nature. I hope your friend gets the help they need somewhere
Yah. Kelsey seems out of touch or putting on a face. Citing the FAA that they care about mental health is so obtuse.
I am a trainee pilot and at one point I was convinced that I would be declared unfit and would never get to fly. And this is not in the states, so paying my way around was an option to some extent. However, I'd much rather never get to see the inside of a cockpit than be the cause for the death of hundreds of people. The rules set of for avmed are there for a reason. Yes, they may sometimes be too intrusive but that's the price you gotta pay to be a pilot. If you know you need help, then just accept the fact and deal with what comes with your decision.
The problem though is that "needing help" is too broad. Needing help for, as the poster above said, OCD, is one thing. For suicidal depression? That's a very different thing. Pilots are probably concerned that if they "get help" the FAA will assume the worst and they will lose their career. Whether that can or will happen, is another thing, but that fear is more likely to push pilots away from accessing services. This will, in turn, mean that pilots who do have a serious issue that DOES affect their ability to fly a plane safely will not only not be getting help, but they won't be stopped from flying either, so it's the worst of both worlds.@@theflyinghobbit
Why would you encourage him if it could lose him his job?
Encourage him to look at self help resources. Books or ChatGPT
Kelsey: "I'm not an expert so I won't talk"
Kelsey: (Proceeds to say a bunch of inaccurate shit about mental health as if he is an expert)
Commercial pilot here - This is a horribly insensitive video especially in a time where pilots are fighting for mental health reform. The tiktok isn’t abt flying being a stressful job, it’s about pilots who deal with problems from wherever that are afraid to go to the doctors in fear of loosing medical. That’s what the video is about Kelsey. As a fan I am very disappointed in you posting this and hope you can understand which pov he is speaking from.
Note that the clip of the Federal Air Surgeon, Susan Northrup, that you put into the video, actually confirms what the lawyer said: that many pilots are afraid of loosing their certificate for reporting anxiety. You probably wanted to put in a different clip instead?
Heck he even failed to read the full sentence at 7:17 where it states “Commercial airlines often have their own mental health screenings and requirements.” Which means they can impose restrictions greater than the FAA as they choose.
Kelsey, you are missing a huge part of this. You are treating mental health difficulties as if they are only acute. One of the major issues they are trying to address is things like not getting help for chronic adhd, depression, or anxiety because you may lose your job... Left untreated, this issue is sooooo much worse than if you go get treatment and the FAA doesn't know about it. What they are driving at is that there are a substantial number of pilots who are currently flying who have these problems and are not seeking help because of the current FAR/AIM standards. That said, from the very short clips and little context that you shared of the original videos, they are doing a very poor job at explaining this issue.
Not that it matters, but I'm an Aerospace Engineer who has been studying this issue for the last couple of years.
Very well said
In a couple of other countries, suicidal pilots have crashed commercial aircraft, usually with no survivors. They wait till the other pilot is out of the cockpit, they lock the door and put the plane into a fast steep dive. A FedEx flight must have driven the ATC nuts when a fight broke out in the cockpit and they had a battle going on with that plane climbing, diving, and maneuvering without clearing anything with ATC. The only thing they could do is keep other traffic out of the way. When the plane landed, the flight crew and guest were sent to the hospital. One pilot was injured so badly he was unable to fly.
You don't just pull over at 10,000 feet to have a moment.
Being a pilot is not like other industries.
If the pilot cannot be 100%, he/she should not be a pilot.
The job is not for everyone. There is no equality.
@@sw7366That just isn’t how life works-mental health CAN be managed, but you and the rest of the aviation industry (FFA) are speaking outside your expertise when it comes to mental health concerns.
Exactly. Mental health is not a "you have it or you don't" situation. Just like physical health it can vary a lot throughout your life. You could be the happiest most chill person when you become a pilot but then your parent dies and suddenly you can't sleep anymore and are super stressed. You could also have adhd and struggle your whole youth but figure out how to manage it and do perfectly fine as an adult. There are no "people who are mentally healthy and can handle stress". Everyone has tough times. And if you can't seek help, a tough time can be disasterous@@skinnypomegranate
Okay why are you mad by this? This is such a tone deaf take. The point is, everyone has life stressors and pilots being discouraged from seeking mental health help increases job and life stressors in general. Why are you advocating against better mental health in aviation? Because you view something as not stressful doesn’t mean others don’t feel a certain way. Dude, have some empathy.
To take this idea further but in other walks of life or hobbies, I know a few in this situation. One was a policeman. I've known him for ~34 years and in the last decade or so, his mild depression had gotten much worse and though he never would admit to any homicidal thoughts, he did admit to frequent suicidal thoughts. He would not ever go to seek any help for fear of losing his job (and rightfully so). He eventually (thankfully) left the job and while he hasn't gotten all the help I think he could use, he's in a better place now.
Myself, in spite of having a great life for the most part, I have had depression issues for 40 years but have never had any real suicidal thoughts. I have been on medication for the last 15 years or so and they help improve my mood and general outlook on life. However, I am an avid gun owner and in the US there have been talks about barring anyone with mental health issues from owning a firearm. While on the surface this makes sense, which would be safer a person that won't seek help because they'll lose their hobby? Or, someone who is trying to get on the right path? As someone who first hand knows the difference it has made, I firmly believe medication can help as it did me.
Of course, it would depend on the mental disorder. Some are worse than others. Perhaps some would need to have compliance checks that they are taking their medicine, visiting therapist, etc.
I am sure some will disagree with this. That is their right but I stand by what has worked for me.
With full respect, and as much as I love your content, Kelsey. I have to disagree with you on this one. To put it in pilot's terms, having to fear for the consequences of getting therapy would be like if go-arounds were (occasionally) penalized. Mental conditions ARE prevalent, and many ARE treatable. You don't want pilots second-guessing whether they should go around, then why should they be second-guessing whether they should get the help they might be in need of?
Much more aligned with Mentour Pilot on this one. Maybe a good idea for a debate video? 🤔
I do love you Kelsey but you didn’t get this one right in my personal opinion. I still respect yours.
Right… when he made the “joke” about needing a therapist because of being “so upset about comments” I cringed. There’s so many reasons to utilize therapy and the fact that doing so can compromise your standing with the faa is quite serious. I’m an aspiring pilot currently in therapy just for general life stuff and I’m terrified that my dreams may come to a standstill because of it. This is a serious topic and this video feels ill-researched. I love Kelsey but perhaps he should stick to the vlogs and viral debriefs.
If he were to agree with the attorney in a public video, his career could be in jeopardy and he knows it.
@@semidhimmi3184 but he didn’t need to address the subject at all.
No he didn't and I love his channel but we can all disagree and still get along but I'm a firm believer and you truly got to suffer from something or been through something to fully understand and he don't suffer from mental illness there's a difference between getting nervous before and a flight exam with a little anxiety than having crippling anxiety your whole life and having to work around it I have ADHD as well and seizures😢😢❤❤❤
He sounds like a child that just learned how to be pedantic. This nitpicking of tiny details someone said is something he does again and again in his videos.
A little mental health check would not hurt him.
Mentour Pilot himself has said this is a major issue, and he made a video about a pilot who didn't want to report his mental health issues, to the point where they boiled over and had a psychotic break, he tired shutting down the engines mid-flight over it. Even if you do get paid by your insurance until 65, your career is in a sense, part of your identity.
Honestly, I'm a little shocked by Kelsey's takes on this one. Every other airline pilot I follow or have heard speak on this subject has affirmed that it is a more-stressful-than-average job. Not "oh my god oh my god gravity is going to turn back on and we are all going to fall out of the sky because planes _literally_ defy physics" stressful. What they talk about is high levels of personal responsibility with high consequences for mistakes, unusual hours, constantly being away from home and loved ones, constant rotation through coworkers making it hard to form consistent connections day-to-day, lack of control over schedule, burn out, etc. Not to mention the fact that even people in relatively low-stress jobs should probably be getting therapy and professional advice every once in a while.
I'm happy for people like Kelsey who have extremely high resistance to psychological distress. That's awesome for him. I just hope he can understand that that's not because he's figured out the right way to approach mental health and the average person needs to get on his level. Your baseline mental state is just as inherent as your physical health. Other (average) people don't experience the world the same way he does, and he seems to have a really hard time understanding that. He's benefitting from an unusual physical advantage over others without realizing that that's what is going on. I've seen hints in the past that made me think that may be the case, but this video really confirmed that he doesn't understand that his personal experience isn't the norm (or even particularly common).
He showed some pretty shocking ignorance in this video while speaking in a very authoritative way- something I know he hates to see others do. I actually hope he seriously reconsiders leaving this video up and unaltered. His attitude towards people who do struggle with stress was disturbing to witness, and not an attitude I want to see spread. It's harmful.
I love the channel and Kelsey, but I think he majorly missed the mark on this one in a very uncharacteristic way. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see other aviation channels (or psychology channels because that was the actual topic primarily being discussed) dunking on this video in the future.
This rather sounds like: Bro didn't read the job description and is in a position he/she can't manage. Then quitting makes more sense then compensate missing compatibility to the job via therapy...... just sayin'
@BruceCarbonLakeriver This isn't about people who have serious psychological or emotional issues that make them incompatible with aviation. It's normal for healthy, high-functioning adults to struggle with their mental health from time to time and to need some sound advice and support. The standard you're expecting from people is just unrealistic, and it's exactly that attitude that creates situations where people spiral for months or years into totally avoidable breakdowns because they see seeking treatment as proof of their inadequacy and a threat to their career.
@@corvinredacted If you list the core tasks of the job as an issue then it is the wrong job. Period!
If I'd get anxiety everytime I'm in a vehicle in the traffic then I couldn't be a truck driver, right? ^^
@@BruceCarbonLakeriver Again, we're not talking about people with a pathological fear of flying or some such nonsense. I can't tell if you're intentionally creating straw-men or if you really don't understand this topic with even a baseline level of nuance. Jobs aren't for leisure.They will be stressful at times-- some more than others. But the jobs need to be done, even ones that have a high work-load or higher risk. We don't have an army of robo-cops available, so we need to make sure the human beings who work those jobs have access to support instead of pretending the solution is to only allow people with sociopathic levels of emotional control to be pilots (enforced by the honor-system, by the way, because it's almost impossible to detect emotional vulnerabilities without cooperation and self-reporting from the subject). It's just willful ignorance if you believe that kind of system is in any way feasible in the real world.
This is exactly the sort of childish (or possibly pathological) understanding of psychology that I'm talking about. The fact that there are adults out there thinking it's possible to create a workforce of emotionally-invulnerable robot pilots, and that the only reason someone might become stressed or need therapy is because they are literally phobic of their own job is absolutely wild to me. This is 'Dealing With Normal Human Emotions 101' stuff. Whether or not you personally experience normal human emotions, such as occasionally becoming overwhelmed by the demands of a career, you should at least be able to comprehend that the vast majority of people do.
@@corvinredacted "gain, we're not talking about people with a pathological fear of flying or some such nonsense." - that's not the point, IF THE JOB DOESN'T FIT YOU THEN LEAVE !!! If even my truck driver analogy doesn't help, I don't know what, or you've forgotten what the hell you wrote in your comment I replied to!
You make it sound like depression is "I can't focus because I'm in a stressful situation." Sometimes it can be that, but it's not *just* that. It's a medical condition. A chemical imbalance in your brain. An inability of your body to produce enough of the chemicals you need to be emotionally stable. Things that are completely ordinary to you can be stressful to someone with depression. Talking to another human being. Getting up in the morning for work. It might get better temporarily with sick leave, or it might just get worse. Depression can usually be managed with medication, but if someone fears to seek treatment (or even be diagnosed) then it *is* dangerous. Being able to seek treatment for mental health without fear of reprisal is crucial to the well being of someone in that situation, and probably better for the safety of the airline.
Please review the recent medical research papers showing no link between serum serotonin levels and depression, along with no statistically relevant efficacy of any SSRI/SNRI-class medications in treating depressive disorders. It, like almost everything else these days, was a scam.
It sounds like you’re describing diabetes or heart disease. Also things that don’t belong in the cockpit. This is about the people in the back, not about you. Get over yourself.
True. Well said.
@@PostcardsfromAlaska well yea, like they said: depression is a medical condition the same way diabetes and heart disease is. But like they ALSO said, therapy and medication can help. Someone with depression who is being medicated and getting therapy for it is just as able to fly a plane as a person without. There is a comment somewhere above about a person receiving treatment for anxiety that was denied their PPL despite the doctor assuring the FAA that they are stable enough to fly because of the medication. This is what the gorkwobbler is talking about. The unfairness of an easily treatable condition being the reason that some people can't be pilots even if they really really really want to be.
And you really think somebody with such a severe depression that they can't get out of bed in the morning should be allowed to fly a plane?
I admit, I am not ATP or even commercial rated. I am a private pilot in RH and ASEL. I am also a physician. I disagree with the dismissal of the concerns by saying "this job is not stressful" or that there is no risk. If there was no risk and no stress then pilots would not care about things like checklists, memory items, and knowing the systems of the aircraft they fly. If there was no risk then it would not take a rather significant amount of training to gain the ability to be pilot in command of even a light piston general aviation aircraft. The risk is low, but not zero, because we all are aware of that risk and consciously take steps (such as knowing aircraft systems, knowing memory items, and using checklists) to minimize the risk. The stress is typically manageable, although for low-time commercial pilots there is a very real pressure to take flights in order to build hours, and for the ATPs I know the stress of the frequent furloughs is definitely an issue.
I have seen AMEs defer for truly stupid reasons, and I have seen the FAA require pilots to jump through all sorts of medically-unnecessary testing to regain their medical certification. As an example, a pilot called out sick for a headache. The next day he still wasn't feeling 100% so he called out again. He was flying single pilot IFR, and we want him to be doing the right thing. His company pulled him from flight status, demanded he head back to the AME, and the AME deferred despite the pilot's neurologic examination being entirely normal and his headache was completely resolved. The FAA demanded a neurology consult. That isn't going to be expeditious for someone with a single headache episode where he didn't need to visit the Emergency Department and has a normal neurologic examination. So, the pilot waited and saw neurology. The FAA then demanded an MRI of the brain, which the neurologist who examined the pilot didn't think was necessary, and I personally agree with the neurologist. That took a while too, and the medical insurance (paid by the pilot's employer) didn't cover the test because it wasn't medically necessary. So the pilot exhausted his "sick time" and waited around for that study, at his own expense, which was also entirely normal. Many weeks went by and finally the FAA issued the medical certificate. What was the message the FAA sent there? He should have just flown SPIFR in a helicopter while feeling sick. That isn't what the website says, nor is it what is said in the AME handbook, but it very much is the message they communicated through both their actions and their inaction.
I also agree that someone suicidal should not be behind the controls of an aircraft, but no reasonable therapist would say to a suicidal client in the office, "OK, the hour is up. See you at the next appointment." In today's society if a client even hints at suicidal ideation that is often an immediate referral to me in the Emergency Department. If the client expresses overt suicidality, that absolutely is an ED referral, 100% of the time. No competent outpatient therapist in the US is going to take the risk of being the last professional to see that client before they took their own life, no matter how low that risk may be. If the client refuses crisis evaluation, they wind up coming to see me by way of a police escort. That is a relatively common occurrence in my line of work.
Thank you for this very important comment!!
Very, very, VERY well said.
I do thank you for your honesty, especially in your last paragraph. I have not visited a mental health professional since I was a child and I am now nearly 50-years-old. Fortunately, I currently am not suffering from any major mental health issues. However, knowing that a visit to a therapist can result in a "police escort" and that this forced encounter with law enforcement personnel "is a relatively common occurrence in my line of work," I will be aware that if I experience a mental health problem in the future, I will *not* seek the assistance of a therapist, but deal with the problem on my own.
@Eternal_Tech The laws regarding involuntary psychiatric holds/ commitment have NEVER been secret. There are many ways the government authorizes either government agents (such as police) or non-governmental actors (such as professionals in multiple areas, or in some cases private citizens) to infringe upon the rights of others for the greater good of the community. With the exception of some laws regarding national security, all of this is out there for the public to see and scrutinize. By your comment, you have not taken the liberty to do so.
You do not need to make a statement to a healthcare professional to get a police escort to the ED. What makes it entirely common is, in fact, non-professionals with credible and articulable concerns that a person is a danger to self, others, or in some states property, as a consequence of mental illness (or in some states substance abuse). Most people with a known history of mental illness and a professional relationship with a therapist will comply with their therapist's recommendation for crisis evaluation. I will refrain from stating which other professionals regularly refer persons for crisis evaluation, for obvious reasons, but the list is long.
If you do not understand these simple concepts, you have probably already raised the suspicions of someone in your life. Seeking the help of a professional before you become an imminent threat is a great way to avoid a police escort. In closure, thank you for your ignorant comment. You have perfectly illustrated the risks of willful ignorance to early and potentially treatable disease. There are clear benefits, which should have been obvious, of treatment of early symptoms of disease before it progresses and becomes life-altering.
I love your videos, but this one feels like a swing and a miss. It's interesting to me that you featured a pilot, lawyer, cop, and firefighter, as the American Society for Addiction Medicine defines all of these as "safety sensitive," essentially meaning "you don't get to have a bad day - period." Good to hear that you are especially resilient, and I think that relaxed nature is what makes your videos so great, but its undeniable that it makes the practice of these professions pressure-filled. I work as a therapist for a lawyer assistance program, and we only just recently scored a major victory in getting questions about mental health treatment and diagnosis removed from the Bar application (in most, not all, states). For years, there's been a chilling effect with law students refusing to seek treatment for fear of it affecting their ability to be licensed, regardless of whether any conduct exists that might raise questions as to their ability to be fit for practice. Yes, in the perfect world you describe, seeking therapy isn't and shouldn't be a disqualifier to practice any profession, but you are also A) giving the licensing agencies FAR too much credit and B) missing the nuance of the broad range of issues someone might seek therapy for, by jumping right to suicidal ideation. Imagine wanting to seek therapy because your spouse cheated on you - the stress isn't coming from the plane you fly, but it exists all the same, as does your obligation to report it. Do you think the pilot in that scenario would rather seek therapy and deal with the unavoidable consequences of disclosure, or sweep it under the rug to avoid the shame? Which course of action would you rather have YOUR pilot taking? Or a scenario where a close family member passes away - many might seek grief counseling, and many in safety sensitive professions might not due to reporting requirements, even though I think we could all agree we'd rather have our pilots, cops, firefighters, and lawyers dealing with grief in a healthy way. Ultimately I think equating "attending therapy" with "mentally unfit" (a phrase which is in the title of the video as of my comment) is dangerous. While I feel safe perfectly safe flying, it's also undeniable that the aviation industry has suffered catastrophic and public mental health breakdowns with stressed pilots missing something on the take-off checklist, misunderstanding ATC instructions, letting inattention take them an hour off course, falling asleep in the cockpit, or even purposefully crashing their planes.
I watch your videos because 99% of the time we agree completely and I find your explanations to the public amusing, but… Missed the point completely on this issue. Did the lawyer say some dumb things while attempting to sensationalize the drama, yes. However, the bigger issue is that there are pilots that DO put off seeking mental health because of the concern of loss of job. Is there insurance, sure. But it’s more than just money; it’s what we do, who we are. Facing a loss of a defining characteristic of yourself, when already having a mental health crisis is a compounding problem. You advocate keeping your mouth shut on issues you do not fully understand: and while I am glad you are not one of the pilots with this problem, others are; so stick to topics you know. This video sends the wrong message to more aviators than you realize; I am certain of this, because I am one of them. I started my professional career not long before 9-11 and trust me, that day left deep scars.
When your debate response begins by saying your opponent has no right to an opinion, you must have a weak argument.
Hi Kelsey! Pilot here, I disagree with this one personally! I think there's something to be said about perhaps the severity of things that have to be mentioned to a therapist that have to be reported but ive seen a few cases in the US where people find it really hard to get their license back over a few minor visits. I think that being said I totally agree with the part at the start!
As someone with a mental disabillity... who went to a company who was fit to deal with this. Mishandled me heavily ONCE, by switching my job from a job I was preparing for all week to one I didn't... and I didn't understand. I tried asking for help.. nope...
What do they recommend I do? Take medication to work! I had no depression, just couldn't do the work they wanted me to do and mentally broke down.
Curious. Petter from Mentour Pilot seems to come to the opposite conclusion: reporting is important, but not working when you're unable to perform safely, as well as getting treatment, are even more important. Until it's fully destigmatized, and guaranteed not to act as a permanent black mark, getting unreported help is better than getting no help.
While most of your points are clear, i agree with the lawyer that better access to confidential mental health treatment is not a bad thing. The current FAA medical guidelines absolutely DO force some people to not seek the help they should for fear of being disqualified. Plenty of commercial pilots have spoken on this topic publicly before so i think it does bear some thought.
If I'm not mistaken another channel has covered one of the major pilot's unions talking about this after the Chinese nose down crash last year.
As a medical provider, I do agree that access to confidential mental health is important BUT it would require a specialized provider because THAT provider has to be able to judge whether this pilot is managing the mental health issues or is going to attempt to/successfully kill a plane full of people. As we do have examples of exactly that happening it would require a provider who would be willing to err on the side of caution and report the pilot.
Most providers really don't want the responsibility of making career ending diagnosis which is what you would require of the provider in order to keep a whole bunch of other people safe.
We have the same issue with gun violence. Multiple providers did not report their patients because they didn't want to cause so much damage to their patient. That patient then went and killed a whole bunch of people. It's happened twice in Colorado so far.
Based on the above, I can see why the FAA requires this to be reported.
I agree here, I believe the lawyer was being hyperbolic on purpose to drive the point home that “mental healthcare is important, and nobody should be discouraged in anyway from having access to it, including airline pilots.”
He could’ve been less dramatic and more factual with his statement perhaps, but the point still stands.
My sentiments exactly.
@@kerwynbrat5771no such thing as "gun" violence. Guns are not "violent" , people are. so stop using that term for an inanimate object. Until we stop using that stupid term, no one will ever solve the issue of violent people.
While I usually agree with you I don’t in this case. There is a difference between going to a therapist to get tools to handle stuff that happens to all of us. Maybe a divorce? Family death? Etc etc. I also work in a field where I am directly responsible for people’s life. I can go to a therapist without my employer knowing. I think it should be confidential and not be reported to authorities since it leads to people not seeking help and that leads to a higher risk? Can we agree on that? That people not seeking help are a higher risk than people who do?
HOWEVER I think that therapists should have a responsibility to report to the FAA if they deem there is an acute risk of harm to self or others.
Hi Kelsey, ive been a fan of your channel for quite a while. Always love your videos, but I came here to say what a lot of other people are saying. You really missed the point of what this man is trying to say here. He is arguing about pilots needing to have access to mental health services while not having to worry about their carrer being over just for requesting mental help. You are arguing little mundane things he is saying such as a plane defying physics or the job being stressful while completely missing the point of what he is saying. Im not even sure what you are arguing actually. I wish you could remake this video and address the actual topic he is discussing. That being mental health care for pilots and their ability to access it without jeopardizing their carrer. I would love to get your take on that issue.
I love your videos and I think it’s great that you are so level that you can’t even relate to what he is saying about people affected by mental illness. Here are the facts…
1) Commercial Arline Pilots is the number 2 most dangerous job according to the BLS. For comparison, police don’t even make the list. You are latching on to his job stress problem which is not the whole story.
2) One in six adults live with mental illness. There is no reason to believe commercial pilots are spared.
3) Meds that can easily be prescribed to treat these illnesses can automatically get you grounded.
4) I read about a saying in an aviation magazine, “If you wanna fly, you have to lie.” So that seems to be the culture.
So yes, there are pilots with issues and it’s very difficult for them to seek treatment. Being suicidal is not the only problem. So are anxiety, depression and a host of other issues.
What do pilots do when they are suffering and feel like they can’t get help? If they are like everyone else, some self medicate with drugs and alcohol. That certainly doesn’t seem like it would increase safety.
His message is clear IMHO. Mental illnesses like physical illnesses exist and seeing a doctor for them and possibly taking a short term medication is clearly better than the alternative. The current system is certainly not ideal for pilots or the flying public.
I've been following the channel for a while, but this video disappointed me a bit and seemed in poor taste.
The initial tik-tok placed some undue emphasis on the flying part being stressful, sure, but isn't it a bit tone-deaf to go on a long tirade about how pilots are not stressed and how jobs like "police and firemen" are the ones who are stressed?
Any job can stress anyone with the right combination of home-life, person and current situation, a point you touch on yourself, and that really is the crux here. Barriers need to be removed from accessing therapy for everyone, and pilots stereotypically have not accessed that help in the past due to the very strict rules of the FAA.
The first 10 minutes of the video just seemed like an unneccessary dismissal of people who are stressed by their work before you finally led into the more nuanced real issue - that people need support for their issues and fear getting their job taken. "Maybe you just aren't cut out to be a pilot?" It's exactly that sort of comment that means people don't go get the support they need.
Pulling verbage from official documents is also about as useful to an essentially human issue as asking someone to read the terms and conditions on a piece of software. It's about the overall environment, both the FAA and corporate that matters, as It's the human behaviour that matters here. I would want a nuanced take from a pilot telling me about whether you are seeing people getting help when they need it, and the support they need from the airlines, front and center at the start of the video, not an out and out 10 minute smackdown on pilots feeling stressed needing a "red button" to pull people off flying.
There is more here, but I just don't understand why approaching the topic this way is the choice taken, there is nuance to this topic that is not helped by roasting a mention of stress and some silly talk of physics that really is not particularly relevant to the topic.
Very well said
There are some very salient points you’ve made here. Thank you.
I watched to the end to see if he at least acknowledged the issue and said something like "while I don't like the particular points the lawyer chose to talk about, I agree that pilots should not have to fear repercussions for seeking help". But no, he talked smack about the lawyer who was obviously exaggerating to try and get his point across, and then he basically says that "if you feel stressed you, you're not meant for that job" which is not okay.
Even I don't 100% agree with the way the lawyer chose to describe the issue, but he was trying to bring attention to a very real issue and we should look deeper into it and make changes in our system to help resolve it.
I think the whole premise of the video was flawed to begin with. It is this kind of mentality and stigmatization of mental health conditions that caused this problem in the first place.
It took me over a year to get my medical after it got deferred for a non issue. I'm deaf in my left year, and the medical examiner deferred my application because of it. Even though there are memos from Oklahoma City saying medical examiners shouldn't defer applications for that reason. She was a new examiner and didn't know the rules on that 100%. Rather than her being properly trained on the rules, I was the one that "suffered" by having to spend more time and money going to specialist doctors to prove I'm fit to fly.
Many decades ago, an uncle of mine who worked in an insurance company devised an insurance for pilots who wouldn't pass the physical. The premise was that the probability was very low. The result was catastrophic for the company, since many pilots who were barely passing the physical suddenly stopped passing it. So Kelsey is speaking for himself on this matter. HAving said that, it's good that pilots must tell if they have either mental or physical problems that may impair their performance.
Mental health is important; don't shove it under the rug.
I’m not a pilot. I know he is wrong about physics, but his point is made. I’m a lawyer. Lawyers do not have to report medical info to the states where they have a license to practice law. However, you can lose your license in many jurisdictions if you have and addiction to drugs or alcohol. That meant lawyers who had substance abuse problems never went to rehab programs. The states wised up and finally changed it rules. They made it possible to go into rehab or seek treatment for a substance abuse problem did not get you disbarred. They allowed you to seek help. It was a significant number of lawyers who were allowed to get help, thus improving their lives and their work bc they were allowed to admit they needed help and could get it without the risk of someone reporting to the state and losing their license to practice. These two jobs are very different, but the issue is the same. There probably are pilots who don’t go to therapy or seek treatment bc they don’t trust their employer or the FAA to stand behind them for long. I wonder how the FAA or your Airline would take it if you kept going to therapy for a year or two years.
It's an interesting idea that admitting alcohol problem would disqualify from that line of work.
I can see a poikt in illegal substances bc you are breaking the law in some ways.
So they prefered high functioning alcoholics to people who seek help with it...
I'm a retired attorney and you must admit that many attorneys exaggerate or overstate something to win a point which is what the lawyer here is doing. And by reading some of the comments, he may be right.
Most of the bar associations are pushing for lawyers to have better mental health and get help when they need it. It sounds like other fields need to get there, too.
(Edit for phone autocorrect issues)
There's a key difference between lawyers and pilots though: lawyers aren't responsible for the lives and physical well being of hundreds of passengers, and potentially hundreds of people on the ground (if a plane were to crash in an urban area). I suspect that old restriction was more about professional appearances than anything else.
@comicus01 But a defense attorney being drunk, high, or hungover can fail a client, who can end up with a wrongful conviction and a life sentence.
My guy, I think this was a big miss for you. Just because YOU don’t experience mental health struggles doesn’t mean that there aren’t many of your peers who might be struggling.
And it could be totally unrelated to flying.
Pilots should absolutely be able to see a counselor privately, without consequences.
I’m a counselor and I really don’t believe that doctors or pilots should be forced to report that they’re seeing someone or report that they’re taking medications that don’t affect their functional ability.
The bureaucracies don’t understand nuance. Professionals ARE at risk of losing their licenses unfairly and unnecessarily as things stand today.
Or because he says he doesn't have mental health struggles on a publicly available video on RUclips...
Meanwhile, United Airlines Hired a trans pilot who was required to go to a year of therapy and is on daily medications that would normally DQ from any medical certificate, but that's OK. Meanwhile, the person who took Dexadrine in 1996 during college can't get a 3rd class medical, let alone the 1st class required for airline transport pilots.
@@semidhimmi3184 right, so we agree then. The bureaucracy is absurd.
@@Meganmama agreed 100%, and it's scary that Kelsey would have taken the effort to create a video that was factually inaccurate. Either he has no ability to imagine how a co-worker might need to seek help, which makes him a narcissist, or he knows how bad it can be and is afraid to say so, in which case he shouldn't have made the video. Otherwise, he's lying in the hopes that the FAA will be easier on him if he needs help.
Agree! Just like a medical precessional can decide if the person’s illness/injury can decide if that impacts the person’s ability to drive/fly why can’t a mental health professional make those same calls?
Counselors should absolutely be required to report any condition or medication that MAY affect operation of an aircraft, even if it's a very LOW chance. With the logic here, I could easily see the possibility of potentially tragic results. It's a tough position to be in for sure, but until counselors are trained pilots and are qualified to determine what is a safe condition to be in on an aircraft, I think it's better left to those that are qualified to determine what is safe and what isn't. Even a tiny chance of impairment flying an aircraft is not acceptable in my opinion. When counselors feel they have to circumvent the FAA because they aren't being fair, that is the real issue and the one that needs to be fixed.
"I'm from the FAA, and I'm here to help" is an oxymoron.
DAME from Australia
I work with occupational mental health all the time and am always disappointed with the stigma associated with mental health in aviation.
Life throws curve balls, everybody is capable of feeling shit at some point in their life. Yes, the role of aviation safety authorities is to reduce the risk of the distracted pilot, or worse, turning their aircraft into a 200 soul lawn dart, but mental health on a spectrum is rarely that dramatic.
Until we recognise that mental health access is or should be just another aspect of routine care, then we will continue to encourage pilots to lie to us, to forgo treatment, and we will continue being surprised when terminal events occur because they were so 'unexpected.'
Kelly, you are out of your realm on this one. You are a great pilot and RUclipsr, but you don't understand hyperbole and the subtilties of mental illness.
You're right Kelley I've got BPD problem autism GAD severe depression severe sucidalideation and attempts noone can ever understand mental health issues unless theve been there and lived it
I totally understand mental illness is stupid I'm a recovering alcoholic and drug addict with multiple years of sobriety 🎉🎉🎉but if someone's struggling they should be allowed to to get help with out the fear but he doesn't struggle with mental illness 😢😢
I agree with you @davkumi. There are minor mental issues that are good to clear up with a specialist before manifesting into something greater.
I would not be inclined to discuss with a mental health professional for fear of the potential bubbling up the chain. Why have a mark on my record.
Instead the matter will fester until it boils over into DUI, drug addiction, etc.
I do not know the lawyer, but I have to assume if he is an aviation guy and has defended pilots in the past he must be aware of potentially unfavorable practices. I’d take his POV over a pilot that seems not to have or understand mental health. It is not all suicide ideation.
@@bunglejoy3645 I apologize because you'll never be a pilot since you'll jeopardize public safety
Sub clinical anxiety and depression can be greatly improved with therapy. It would be preventative and maybe shouldn’t be as heavily regulated.
Yes sub clinical could be but at what point depression become clinical
I appreciate how respectful people are being as they push back against Kelsey with all their might!
As far as disability insurance, if you're a pilot who winds up losing your medical to a mental health issue you'd be well advised to go ahead and take that eye out too. Disability claims that lack the loss of a limb or other *visible* appendage are rarely approved, be it private insurance or SSDI (in the US).
I feel this is really disingenuous when he talks about being a pilot not being stressful, there are loads of reports from organisations around the world that represent pilots talking about stress and more about anxiety and depression, often related to the lifestyle linked - being away from home etc. Getting treatment for any of these conditions is frowned upon as you're automatically seen as someone who will fly the next plane they comman in to a mountain so it creates the avoidance of dealing with the issues and they just mount rather than get addressed. This is what the person in the video is addressing.
I think Kelsey specifically said the flying part of the job wasn’t stressful for him.
Schedule sure, being at some remote location okay, but not flying itself.
Kelsey stated that "flying" is not stressful. The lawyer in the video clip said that "flying with 200 souls behind you is highly stressful". Kelsey was not addressing the issues of daily life and being away from home being stressful, but the issue of actually piloting the aircraft.
Like your videos. Not this one. You talk about staying in one's lane and proceed to talk about a topic which you aren't trained in. People who go to therapy often aren't in a crisis or anywhere near one. Why? Because we're in therapy and taking care of our mental health! In any event, I have heard multiple aviation safety experts explain why the current approach discourages early (or any) intervention. Unsurprisingly, early intervention is associated with more positive outcomes. Therapists are also mandatory reporters. I do regular therapy to maintain my mental health much like one regularly services their vehicles.
Tldr; Going to therapy can be as benign as taking lipitor.
Yep, I lost a little respect for him even. He's one of those people that stigmatizes anyone that isn't in perfect mental health.
@@robbyyant6213 I guess it's a bit like in the saying "don't meet your heroes". I was perfectly happy listening to Kelsey talking about planes, I didn't have to know that for him "therapy" equals "suicidal" (good he didn't say "crazy" eh?). That's either lack of insight/knowledge, intentional harm or too big of an ego, nothing I expected to see on this channel.
@duzehalo I forgive him because the comments are respectful and wildly insightful from a variety of different backgrounds and perspectives. People are being thoughtful. It's kind of amazing to see. Hope that's the silver lining he takes away from this.
@@robbyyant6213 I didn't get that impression at all (stigmatizing people without perfect mental health). Reading the other comments, it appears he simply vastly under estimates how easily the FAA will pull a pilot's license.
But I suspect, and certainly hope, that he'll make a second video clarifying his feelings and hopefully saying he's reevaluating his opinion regarding seeking out therapy and not telling the FAA. Even better if he goes and seeks out a few therapists/doctors to interview and get their opinions (and luckily for him it won't count as a counseling session!)
Taking Lipitor can also kill a person.
7:24 "further evaluation" means your medical not getting approved which means you are grounded. Once your medical is deferred it is REALLY hard to get it back... Trust me on this one. I'm prior military and a lot of military enlisted folks who are using their post 9/11 G.I. bill for flight is having trouble with the medical due to PTSD and other disability ratings with the VA and other such issues. 8:09 not all pilots are airline pilots and have this kind of protection...
Don’t tell any medical examiner anything. Just like meps.
This is such a pick-me-girl take on real issue for a lot of people. Personally this topic is not an issue for me thankfully, however, I do have peers in which it is. I will try my best to be constructive with the feedback but I don't even know where to begin. a) You spent the first few minutes of the video belittling a lawyer with a bunch of semi-condescending talk of the lift equation as if he actually thinks airplanes are magic. At this point, in my mind and of those with higher order thinking skills, you've lost credibility due to arrogance and unnecessary belittling. b) You go on extensively to explain that you don't have the experience of a fighter pilot, therefore you can't speak on behalf of them. You completely fail to acknowledge that you don't have the experiences of OTHER airline pilots. This is the epitome of hypocrisy. I understand that your platform is for you to state YOUR takes, which is valid. But what is NOT valid is to pretend that every pilot thinks the same as you, acts the same as you, or is stressed by the same things as you. You don't get to speak for everyone in the industry. c) You falsely spent a lot of time explaining how your job is not stressful, as if that is factually universal. There is nothing objectively stressful about anything at any job. Stress is a subjective measure based off of individuals perceptions of reality. Maybe it's not stressful for YOU. But it can be for other people. Statistically pilots have higher average cortisol levels compared to the majority of other professions, up there with doctors and nurses, directly supporting the opposing side of your argument. d) You insinuated that those stressed out by being a pilot don't particularly belong to the industry. There are people who are stressed out by their desk jobs, that doesn't mean that they're not cut out to be a secretary. There are countless phenomenal pilots that find their job stressful, especially compounded by things in their personal lives. e) You stated that you don't like that the lawyer is insinuating that being a pilot is a risky job, which in turn may decrease the public's confidence in airline safety. That's simply not what he's doing. There is statistically nothing inherently risky about being a pilot, but there are many pilots that are hyper aware of, such as the fact that the consequences of improper action can be catastrophic in this profession. f) I think you brought up a good point about insurance for loss of airman medical- that's a good thing for pilots to be aware of so they don't hide major medical issues due to finances. However, I feel as if this point is the only valuable point I took from the video. g) You mocked the fact that there are so many pilots that could benefit from being able to see a therapist without any medical action. You are having a difficult time distinguishing the difference between mental illness and seeking help for a rough patch in life or well-being. g) On the issue of potentially Sui***al pilots in the cockpit, of course no one wants that, but the argument boils down to two options, which are more or less 1) someone of that nature not getting help, or 2) someone of that nature getting help. and I'd much rather take the later. In conclusion, I think you totally missed the main points of the proposed changes and reforms coming to the industry, by instead focusing on a couple "hot takes" that were more or less irrelevant to the general conversation.