Pilots Fired After Caught Sleeping Mid-Flight
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- Опубликовано: 11 ноя 2023
- There is some various opinions on what happened and only 2 people will ever know but it cost them their job.
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I’m a locomotive engineer, drive trains, and we have an “alerter” to make sure we are awake. If I don’t touch the throttle, air brakes, or other buttons a red light starts blinking. It’s increases the intensity until an audible alarm starts going off. That also continues to get louder and if I still don’t react it will apply the train brakes causing me to stop. Of course it sends out a message letting the dispatcher know so they will try contacting you on the radio to inquire why the penalty brake system was activated.
boat engineer here and also boat captain , i tend to install similar systems on some work boats to prevent people from dosing off or being distracted! am installing an autopilot on my boat and for sure will be installing a 5 min dead man switch to keep pushing if no push an alarm sounds ! it save lives and mishaps !
@@jvmalta081I think a ferry captain fell asleep....Washington state? If I remember they banged into the dock/terminal. 😮
Isn it what you called a dead mam pedal ou switch or something like that?
To be fair, stopping a plane mid-air might not be the best idea. 🙃
Interestingly, my VW takes a similar approach-if I don't make any inputs to steering for a long time while it's in the semi-autonomous mode, it first displays "take over steering!," then the message turns red and it starts beeping, then it beeps a different/louder tone, then it jolts the brakes twice quickly to try to get my attention, then it puts on the hazards and brings the car to a stop/calls 911 (according to the manual-I tested it up to the point it jolted the brakes on an empty highway late one night).
You also have PTC that will throw your train into emergency if you are at risk of a collision. Unfortunately for us when flying, we can't just put on the brakes and hold, if both pilots were to become incapacitated.
Kelsey: "you want to spend your entire career without anyone knowing who you are.
also Kelsey: has 1.13 million people who know who he is.
If those 1.13 million people have snacks for Kelsey, that's a good thing.
Right now, somewhere in this world, is 2nd breakfast!... ;)
are at least fifty million via views
@@mderline4412 mountain or central time. I just finished first breakfast.
be we aren't anyone, we're no-one
Had a an airline pilot friend tell me this once:
“If anyone wants to know what it’s like being an airline pilot… sit on a lawn chair, in dark closet, with dim lighting, and have someone hand you a lukewarm TV dinner.”
Goddamn, sounds like a dream job for introverts.
Yeah, its probably one of those jobs that's like 95% boredom and 5% raging chaos. Reminds me of a job my buddy had monitoring regulator stations for large pipelines. 95% of the time he was bored, but when the alarms went off all the handbooks came out, radio messages galore, vehicles being mobilized.
@@eunhyuekpark6159it's not like that at all.
Except you're actually FLYING a plane!!!
I think flying has its better points above being in a closet. It's busy, it's travel, it's really cool to do that work and it has its rewards. It may be a time for someone to change one's career plan if that's what flying feels like to the person who said that.
And a side note: A crews of two or more are important, that's why transportation companies in all industries which have two or more on board should stop pushing for one crew member operations. There's likely more chance of someone not sleeping and waking one who nods off, plus there's less chance of missing something with both front windscreens and both sets of gauges being observed.
I once fell asleep operating something. I wasn't in travel at all at the time. Also I wasn't irresponsible nor operating something dangerous. I was doing public broadcast radio as the operator in the studio. I had loud neighbours above me and they lasted three months before being kicked out due to other neighbours' noise complaints, the landlord was being difficult with me and didn't seem to care but he had to at some point. For that three months, I was getting anywhere from a couple of minutes to about an hour sleep, lucky to get three hours straight when I was home and discover they were quiet. I hardly had money to cover the rent and other bills, so had no way to recover sleep at a motel though that was a strong consideration. I was about to start calling friends to ask if I could sleep at their homes once in a while. Then things got quiet, some people got together and vocally aggressive and these two had to leave. Huh, their moving day was no more noisy than their usual noises.
I was on air during one radio show with a host and a guest. And suddenly I woke to find a surprising place to wake to, buttons, screens, sliders and VU meter dial needles swinging. I didn't know if I missed commercials or anything else and didn't know if I snored in the mic. I listened to the guest to gauge what was happening and figured I nodded off just a short while. Yep, forgot there was a good sized clock in the studio. It's so awful to feel groggy in the mind and see all that.
I also did audio production several times a week and I fell asleep in the production room a few times. It wasn't as bad waking to those controls because it wasn't live, except that the boss caught me once and it was no fun to wake up to him in the doorway, he was known as a bully boss.
After those people left the apartment, I was back to staying awake for my show times and production times.
It's just better for people to get sleep and for everyone to respect that need of rest for our neighbours.
I was a first class flight attendant with Lufthansa, working right behind the flight deck on the 747-400. And we were also responsible to serve our pilots with food and drinks.
Usually, during long night flights, when almost all passengers were asleep, our pilots asked me to call them every 20 - 30 minutes, or they called me.
And definitely not only asking for something to eat or to drink 🥱
Sometimes I went to the cockpit for a little chat during long nightflights. That helped all of us to keep us awake 🙂
A sensible arrangement.
Wait, Don't long haul flights have relief pilot crew to make sure fresh pairs of eyes are there at the flight deck?
@@reckz420 Sure. But try doing a "red-eye" or "graveyard" night shift. Applies not just in the cockpit/cabin, the same is true in a hospital, surveillance & security jobs and many other tasks:
If it entails monotonous surveillance, where "actively doing" tasks are few to none you will see what is meant - certainly after some months on the job - at the latest.
No matter whether the relief pilot - or whoever is on duty during the graveyard shift hours - has had some rest beforehand. The circadian low of your bio rhythm - a phase of especially low ability to stay alert - can get you.
So what the former flight attendant described what they and the flight crew did was VERY sensible.
@@olaflieser3812 You have no clue what you're talking. Examples you gave, they all work with no backups. Whereas pilots have very strict regimen of breaks, sleep etc. Relief crew need to be completely fresh, having taken x number of hours rest before taking over.
@@reckz420We all believe those professionals, like above, and their sensible action as described, more than a troll like you. Plus, a lot of us (including myself) have worked night shift and know exactly what that entails for the human mind.
A flight I was on was intercepted by fighters once. However, it was a military charter, the jets were training, and the captain told us a couple of minutes before it happened. As a 15 year old boy it was the most awesome thing ever.
My family flew back from West Germany to McGuire AFB, NJ in a Super Constellation, 1962. One engine was on fire, another was dead, we had to fly through a squall to land. That was fun.
yea that sounds like it would be cool as hell to see
I was at ATL and a bunch of F-16 were taking off in front of us. Such beautiful and powerful machines. It was pretty cool.
As a 29 year old it sounds awesome lol. Let's be real most men are just big kids lol.
@@chunchunmaru123 definitely am just a big kid and Im nearly 40 lol
A test was done in Canada with freight crew that flew night freight.
The Captain's brain was wired up with electric sensors that measured brain waves .
Without rest on approach after a 4 hour night flight they recorded 20 micro sleeps during the approach phase alone.This is where you are actually asleep for brief periods of time but believe yourself to be awake.
They then did a flight with controlled rest and the results were much better and safer.
This is why Canada has a controlled rest program on the flight deck.
It works.
I use to do this at lectures even while standing up.
Yep.. microsleeps
Really interesting :o
microsleeps holy hell
F Canada. Trudeau is such a ()*)*( he will be the end of Canada. LOL you guys can’t have anything but make sure you pay your taxes and listen and don’t ever not do what they say LOOOOOL
I am a retired ATC. IN THE 1970’s I was riding in the jump-seat from ATL TO DAL in the late afternoon sun beating in the cockpit and extra warm. I fell asleep and when I woke up, both pilots were sleeping as well. A few coughs and both were awake!
"hey the boss is asleep. Let's join him."
Did you hand them 'the phone number' to call?
I don't believe you.
what de hell
@@meghanmisaliar No one cares what you believe. You can't look up from your phone long enough to have cognitive thought.
I appreciate how you talked about this aspect of human frailty with empathy and compassion. As sorry as I am for the 2 pilots, I wouldn't want to be a passenger on that flight.
'I'm a glass of milk and a cookie away from sleeping' Made me lol. Keep up the great work Kelsey!
I’m the same🤣
That is the optimal sleeping environment 😴
... a cookie away from dreaming - about free breakfast... 😊😃
There has to be a good reference.
and I'm eating cookies with milk while watching this... :D
While I was a crew chief in the Air Force, we were returning from an overseas trip, where the entire crew was exhausted. During the long return trip, the pilots took turns sleeping in the bunks while the crew chiefs sat up front and help monitor the flight. By the time we landed, everyone was refreshed and wide awake.
Must not have been Awacs lol. They treated us like crap. Flight crew were either ultra arrogant former B52 pilots or butter bars. 10s were better but was only on those for a year before going SF. Feels like a lifetime ago though.
@@RipRoaringGarage Guy I was stationed with in Germany, hated USAF, got out (94 or 95) and was gonna make all kinds of $$ w/his A&P...reality was different. He got a degree, went back in as an O, got rated and is now an O-6, he flew E-3 at Offutt, last name Book....ring a bell? He was such an arrogant prick.
That's not a good thing. The airline shouldn't be allowing you to work when everyone is exhausted. You shouldn't want to work when your exhausted. The pilots should call the airline and tell them they are unable to fly do to exhaustion, yet they don't, and it ends up putting sometimes hundreds of peoples lives in danger. How many planes have crashed because of exhaustion and complete loss of awareness that leads to bad decision making? A lot. I hope if you still fly commerical you know better now
@@Kratos-eg7ez You must be European. Read what the man said again. LOL
@@RipRoaringGarage forget Butterbars, majors were worse.
You are 35,000 ft and you fall asleep for 90 minutes, you need to get fired. That's a deep sleep. If I was a passenger and I knew my pilot was sleeping for 90 minutes, I wouldn't be happy.
What if you fall asleep for 34 minutes at 15,000 feet.
@@user-yw6wj3cy9qhahahahaha well said 😂😂😂
I live in Minneapolis, and this story was front page news in all the state newspapers.
those eyelid inspections can't be rushed...
Lmao they were watching the in-flight movie on the inside of their eyelids. 😂
As a military pilot, we would do strategic naps. Some of our flights were long but not long enough to have augmented crews. The naps were hugely useful to staying sharp. Overflying your destination is usually not a good thing esp considering your reserves. Not surprising both pilots were fired.
Same here, I’ve had missions where my pilots take turns taking naps while we backed them up from the jump seat.
Naps rule.
I learned about the "Lazy Soldier" early on: "never stand when you can sit, and never sit when you can lie down".
@@fasillimerick7394 I learned the same lessons while training with the Army. It didn’t make it better, but I understood where the training was coming from.
I'm not a pilot but I'm okay with the idea of the pilots napping as long as they do it at a reasonable time when theyre just cruising and one of them is awake and paying attention.
I generally flew nights and always let a tired guy take a nap. Helps him and helped me by having an alert pilot monitoring along with me.
I remember this incident on the news and one of the things mentioned was that the flight attendants no longer had the chance to routinely check on the pilots since 9 11 as the cockpit door had to remain closed and locked for the whole flight. Prior to 9 11 the cockpit door did not lock but was usually kept shut and the flight attendants would just open the door and go into the cockpit to chat with the pilots throughout the flight. I wish we could go back to pre 9 11 days but maybe one day in the future.
I dont work in the US. But my airline in Europe the Cabin crew are required to pick up the phone and call the flight deck at last every 30 minutes.
The whole procedure takes 15-30 seconds.
I'm just surprised that the cabin crew didn't call in earlier. They knew their anticipated arrival time and the descent usually begins 30 minutes before touchdown, on average. I would have thought that the cabin crew would have called within 15 minutes of the anticipated touchdown just to determine why descent hadn't yet begun or to ask why there was a delay so they could make an announcement.
The doors did lock before 9-11. It was a much less robust door and lock.
A Lufthansa Flight attendant commenting on this video described a method used on board their flights that was precoordinated by their aircrew with the forward flight attendants to ensure that crew in the cockpit are still awake/alert with scheduled onboard phone calls between them. I don't see why any airline or aircrew couldn't utilize this same informal method as another fail-safe, other than flight crews/pilots whose egos or narcissism prevent them from admitting that they are human or that unforseen circumstances could arise.
Not anytime soon with Joe Biden in office letting all these strangers into our country.
Best way to start the Sunday is with Kelsey and Aviation stories.
Facts
Thats how I end my workdays 😂 him cackling gets me sleeping like a baby.
Kelsey, I'm sure you dont read all of these comments, but I had to send you a shout out. I'm a private pilot/attorney who flies all over my state working with estate and probate clients. I know your 747s are much more impressive than my 206, but I wanted you to know your videos are both informative and entertaining for those of us on the private side of flying. I hope you keep up the great work with your videos and thank you for all the time you spend creating this content.
flies
An attorney and pilot?? I'm sure you live quite comfortably
@@NoName-zn1sb yes. . . Thank you.
Yes indeed. His videos help pilots to be better pilots.
Awesome dude
i have finally determined that pilot humor is exactly my style of comedy. i crack up watching these. had no idea about the cat noises.
Thank you for taking us along on your adventures. I wish you all the best in setting down roots.
As a Canadian pilot, we do have controlled rest on the flight deck. There are fairly stringent rules as to how and when we use it. All I can say is if you are feeling sleepy, a 15-20min cat nap, makes a huge difference to alertness when your on approach. I find it rather crazy the FAA has not implemented a program, much like the EASA, Transport Canada and others.
It’s the FAA, the people running it are about 300 years old and refuse to change anything. As usual a bunch of government bureaucrats who know nothing practical about anything come and make rules that make sense to absolutely no one. Also the culture in the US seems to be to suck the living life out of any sort of employee and leave them like a hollow empty human vessel in the end.. hopefully things will improve in the future .
I agree, as long as it is organised. So when one pilot is taking his nap, the other pilot is aware that he is fully responsible and will be fully alert.
Just seeing who drops off first is not a good idea.
FAA is NOT that smart!
@@wilsjane That's the issue I'm having. Usually during red-eyes we both wanna dose off, but it'd be too unsafe to do so. And we're too fatigued and hypovigilant to hold a conversation. This is where coffee comes to save the day :)
We elected Biden for crying out loud…we are capable of all kinds of lunacy…
ATC: What is going on up there? Pilot: I invoke my 5th amendment right to remain silent.
As always……. Honest, Humble, Understanding.
Yet so dignified in your analysis of what happened on that flight
10/10 mate
Thank you for another very well-done video and on quite a unique subject! I have been watching your videos for several weeks now and I want to let you know that, prior to watching you, I had a terrible fear of flying. Your videos and your well thought out explanations of how everything works on a plane has given me much relief to the point that I could get on a plane and not have the worries I once had. You cover so many different situations and scenarios, and you always give a clear explanation of why things work the way they do, breaking things down that inexperienced flyers like me can easily grasp. I truly appreciate your time and talent to make all of these videos. They all have been sort of a "therapy" for me! Keep up the good work! Stay safe!
Kelsey hears an alarm on the flight deck and abandons his snack making...that's serious! Have a great week everyone!
we were on a grand canyon river trip when one of the guys broke his wrist--one of the guides radioed a big jet with a hand held going over the canyon to get a rescue helicopter--it worked
wow thats some quick thinking and crazy story whoever did that is hella smart
Handheld VHF’s are great to have, even if you never need to call anyone. Listening to the local airport channel and scanning the aviation frequencies in my car helped a lot when I was a student pilot. 👍🏼
No way this happened.
@@hotmetalslugswhy not?
It was db cooper on the radio Cool story bro tell it again
My first flight instructor was an Eastern Airline pilot. He told me one time they were flying a MD80 or DC9, I don't remember, they flipped a coin to see you got the first nap. He won and when he woke up his FO was asleep. Sounds like a story that has been around the world a few times.
Another outstanding video, Kelsey! Informative, Entertaining, insightful, interesting… I’m temporarily running out of adjectives to describe your hard work. Thanks for blessing me with your videos.
It can be hard to stay awake droning along on a nice quiet day or night. The air-stream noise, thinner air, boredom, no conversation, time zones, the engine frequency, etc... You don't have to be sleep deprived to slip off into nap time. It can all be hypnotic.
With working the night shift, 4 AM was torture. The body knows, it just knows and says, "I need to sleep now!" Sitting in a pilot's seat for hours on end truly tests the will of the conscious and unconscious mind. Same with truckers and police who need to stay alert. Kudos to them.
That's what YT premium is for......not that I condone it's use etc etc etc. blah blah blah...
I wish. I can’t sleep on an aircraft (or in a train or car or bus) until I am basically at the point of physical collapse from sleep deprivation. It’s not hypnotic for me at all. (And no, I’m not a fearful flyer, quite the contrary, i enjoy it.)
I can’t sleep on planes either. Maybe it’s because I’m a poor and have to fly coach but even as a small person those seats are way too uncomfortable sleep in. Plus, planes are usually too cold, so I’m scrunched, shivering, watching a movie on my phone and wishing I was in bed.
Plus pick up a little chop to rock you to sleep.
Back in the day (pre 911) as a BA3200 Captain, I'd close the curtain/door (yes, there were curtains) advise the FO to take the radios while flying, I'd monitor everything, put oxygen mask on 100% and take a few hits. Wakes you right up. We'd typically monitor short count (123.45) as an unofficial company frequency. The transmissions were hilarious but very informative. Those were the days.
Are you still flying?
No. Retired 2018, 17000 hours after stints with JAL, ANA, and Lufthansa as an instructor pilot.@@cynomyS
When it is YOU taking an oxygen hit - waking 'me' right up ?
It will NOT in any way wake ME right up as you suggest.
Your statement is FALSE and deliberately vague.
Learn to be accurate in your description.
STOP using the word YOU when YOU are referring to yourself
Look in a Diction-ary to learn what the word YOU means
and in which context it is used.
Can you afford to purchase at least one of three good quality
diction-aies as well as a Latin Diction-ary
@@andrew_koala2974 Ooooh. Might want to look up the definition of a 'Generic You' there, buddy. Also you'll find that it's just 'dictionary', no need for the dash, it's not a contraction, it's a whole separate word. Also you missed the final period on that last sentence, and you also included a space in between 'up' and '?' in the first sentence. There should be no space between the last word and any end punctuation in a sentence.
One would suggest one gets off their high horse before one falls off of it.
I was simply making a generalization based on my experience. While perhaps not grammatically exact, the phraseology you are offended by is a rather common idiom used in everyday speech and writing. Restraint and common decency prohibit me from commenting further. BTW, 42 thumbs up so far.@@andrew_koala2974
your a great man, well done Captain, his videos are keeping are skies more safer, but never degrading his fellow pilots!
Kelsey, I these videos are a tremendous public service to the flying public. Thank you so much!
A friend of mine flies for a major airline.
There is a pilot shortage, the airlines are pushing pilots to fly maximum hours.
Many pilots I know now routinely go "fatigued" (that is refuse to fly at short notice) because they ARE genuinely tired and NOT SAFE to fly.
This means standby pilot have to be called in at short notice.
The pilot who call "time out" tend to be the senior pilots who have been around for a while, the junior pilots may feel pressure to "get the job done" because of fear of losing their job!
The airline companies are writing the rosters, they bear some responsibility for pilot fatigue problems!
We are union-protected and calling out fatigued can never be held against you. We can't really be fired unless we do something criminal or grossly negligent.
I think some reform needs to be done. This isn't solely the pilots fault. Even watching Kelsey's videos you can see him trying to cram sleep into a small window of time. This shouldn't be happening. Pilots need have enough time for sleep.
You can that the covid mandates for this
Only the privately-owned Federal Reserve can create currency. If anyone else does it, it’s counterfeiting. So, the only way everyone in society is able to collect these bank notes is to profit off of each other.
Side note: The 1967 dollar is considered the benchmark of value; that is, a dollar was worth a dollar. In 2023, it takes just over 9 dollars to buy what one 1967 dollar would buy that year.
Profit comes from maximizing revenue and minimizing expenses. So, because the dollar is worth a 1/9th of what it used to be worth, a business has to make 9x the profit in 2023 just to maintain status quo.
“Allow me to control a nation’s currency and I care not who makes its laws.” - a Rothschild back in the 1700’s
The reckoning is coming.
As someone who's homebase is MSP, this was a huge event when it happened. Everything from the voice recorder getting lost, to the ability for the pilot to retire vs getting fired, to who is better: Delta vs. Northwest, to whether they were sleeping or "debating" in a discussion. Everyone knows that they were asleep and I'm glad you're calling it out vs going with the pilots BS stories. 👏👏👏
whose homebase
MSP (Minneapolis). I was in Management for Northwest Airlines at the time, but off duty. They were sleeping. It did happen occasionally but very infrequent. @@NoName-zn1sb
Is this the same MSP overflight incident as the former Northwest pilots (supposedly) discussing how flight bidding worked under Delta just after the merger?
@@David-yh4wz It is!
Yes. Nobody talks about the side issues of mergers. Alot of negatives. Just similar to Republic/Northwest merger. @@David-yh4wz
I'm a train driver and another train driver in the comments already perfectly explained, how train drivers are prevented from falling asleep. It actually helped me once, cause we have changing shifts where I work. I had a week where I had early shift, day shift, late shift, night shift and early shift again all within the same week.
It's hard sometimes.
However especially then I take extra much care, time and effort to do my tasks.
For a train driver, there is just two rules. Don't take shortcuts and be honest
Don't take shortcuts basically means you have to always obey the rulebook. Always. Even if something means it's a little more complicated to do. But you would wonder how many people just make their own rules just because of their laziness.
But if you followed all the rules that were given to you you just have to be honest. Look, everyone makes mistakes, it's human. But what really makes the train driver or pilot job so special is that you have the whole responsibility. You sign up for it the second you sign your work contract. And that means admitting when you messed up and carrying all the consequences.
There have been a lot of train driver mistakes where the drivers have just made an honest mistake, been honest about it. They did some retraining and got sent back to work which I think is fair.
There have also been incidents from people who tried to cover up their mistakes and they just made their situation worse. Those people usually get fired.
I personally think that the pilots got fired because they lied about everything. They were too proud to admit that they made a mistake although they knew damn well it was too late.
Had it been 20 or maybe 30 minutes, maybe they could've played it off but what I'm trying to say is
If you know You messed up big time: ADMIT IT. You are already in this situation and lying will just make your whole situation worse, especially if people find out that you lied.
The PIC was getting schooled from the FO on the Delta scheduling system that NW was adopting post-merger. Apparently it was quite different from what he had been used to. As a more senior pilot he was having a bit of a learning curve in grasping its intricacies. The two broke out their paperwork, lowered the volume on the radio and proceeded to get lost in conversation as if they were sitting in a diner. . . but alas they weren’t. Much like they did with their destination, these two went well past an “ooops! My bad!”.
Hey Kelsey, the railroads have a similar system in all locomotives nowadays. It's called the alerter. If the engineer doesn't move the throttle, brake or other control in a certain amount of time it will sound the alarm. I enjoy your videos and I await the next one.
Thought it was the Deadmans switch?
I think I remember Mentour Pilot doing a video on this incident. If I remember what he pulled up, this took place right after NWA merged which whoever they merged with and the pilots were actually talking about schedules and the scheduling software that they were being forced to move to. So, no, they weren't sleeping but doing the equivalent of looking at your cell phone when driving your car. Distracted driving. Distracted flying.
I mean doing that for 80 minutes without hearing the radio at least once is pretty hard to believe imo. Regardless of the reason, they did deserve to lose their licences
Yep. I lived in Detroit at the time (a Northwest hub at the time) and remember hearing about this. They were trying to figure out their new scheduling app. This is a weird oversight for Kelsey.
@@AndreiTache Did they? Or was the CEO who should've gotten the boot for being a poor manager? Why do we keep punishing the feet when the brain is clearly missing? There's no lesson here that sticks. Sure, this video is a reminder, sure the other pilots know, but the reality is this, the ultimate lesson wasn't. They didn't fall asleep for nothing (and it's pretty much clear that they nodded off - as you said, you don't doom scroll and suddenly go deaf for that long...).
Mentour Pilot took the more "official" approach to the story. For me, I don't know which is worse, malding over a software and going deaf for 80 minutes or falling asleep for 80 minutes. Both sound ridiculous to me.
Would have been easy to verify by the FAA though, I'm sure they would have examined the electronics and the onboard network to see whether they were really using the apps.
This was your most insightful video yet. Very fascinating stuff
Just found your channel and it made my day. I’m an AME (A&P) and I really feel for all of you. People that step out of line and create these types of disturbances need to be banned permanently. I am not patient with humans. Great channel!
Driver fatigue monitoring is pretty common in trucks here in Australia and some high end cars have it as well. It just monitors the persons eyes and can tell when they are getting sleepy. Wonder if any airlines have used that? The beauty is that that it is aware the person is getting sleepy before they have admitted it to themselves.
Yes one of the systems in our trucks counts your blink rate and reports you. It also checks if you’re yawning a lot.
Hey Kelsy. I took this flight the day prior to this event. You might recall that at that time Delta was in the process of taking over NWA. The merging of systems, schedules and pilot rank ( I know that there is a better word for this) was making all the NWA people nuts. They were all upset. The pilots claimed that they had their laptops open and were trying to 'bid' their schedule but they couldn't figure out the Delta system. They were working this problem but somehow missed the fact that there was nothing on the radio. The autopilot apparently changes from the plan if and then just maintained the heading. There was an alert for this but they were on their laptops. Anyway, that is what the Minneapolis paper reported at the time.
Thanks Kelsey
This story sounded familiar to me. I recalled the same story that you relayed. I checked Mentour Pilot and about one year ago he did the same story, NWA flight 188.
Another great video I love ihe stories and information. I hope you keep making them!!.
Never lacking for the human touch. You explain it so well. A true professional.
thanks Kelsey, always informative, entertaining, and a dash of humor
Reminds me of an AF SSgt who worked base ops back in the 70s. He used to be a KC-135 pilot and one night our discussion turned to why he was grounded and demoted. He said "we fell asleep over China one too many times" Turned out he was a BINGO tanker circling off North Vietnam and they both fell asleep while on the northbound leg.
Gosh. I am not sure how I feel about this episode you have shared. As someone who is looking at an international flight of probably about 13 hours, jeez, I feel rather unsettled. I am glad you share all that you do and for the most part, I think it has helped me and many others to understand a lot more about what pilots deal with. You are such a hidden population. It's good to be educated and have a better sense of things. This one though, makes me nervous to think that those in charge of the plane could be conked out and unresponsive in a time when an immediate response is needed. Better that they recognize the need to ensure pilot cognizance and physical stamina and set up back up systems to protect everyone. Thanks for continuing to share with us all about the world of flying, it has been so eye opening.
A flight of 13 hours will have supplemental crew so the flight team can take turns getting rest. In the case here is was just a 4 hour flight.
This video is your best one yet, very well done.
Another brilliantly informative and entertaining video Kelsey.
Really enjoy these and seeing what's gonna' happen next on your channel. 👌👍
Kelsey, I really enjoy hearing your explanations on various situations in regards to commercial flying, having learned quite a lot watching your videos. Thanks for taking the time presenting these for us in RUclips land! I would be curious to see your input on a recent commercial airline incident that happened in my my corner of the world where a deadhead Alaska Airline pilot had a mental issue and tried to cut the fuel supply to the engines during flight.
@@AbductedbyAliens58 - Kelsey said "there's a self appointed airline that monitors guard." Self appointed is the key phrase that tells you that it isn't the official monitor of the guard channel.
There is an AIRLINE KAREN that has appointed itself hall monitor for guard. They are not officially recognized. @@AbductedbyAliens58
@@AbductedbyAliens58someone in the comments here said the *self-appointed* airline was Delta.
There's a story going on _right now_ that speaks to the mental health and treatment of pilots. The guy who tried to turn the engines off while riding in the jump seat after having been up for 48 hours and having been on psychedelic mushrooms. There's a whole story there that isn't about a guy who's charged with 89 counts of attempted murder and I think its important and I'd like to hear you talk about it. Surely its all the talk of the concourse and cockpits.
You are a terrific speaker. Thanks.
I find it facinating that the alert system is just now starting to become common in commercial aviation. Alerter buttons have been commonplace in the railroad industry for a while to make sure that the engineer stays alert to what is going on and it is suprising that has not been an industry standard in aviation as well.
I first flew the 747-400 back in 1990. It came with an alert system.
On the bright side, I'm sure their company is always looking for good flight attendants. It never hurts to have someone on board other than the pilots who can fly and land the aircraft.
Who would be a flight attendant if you could fly and land the aircraft?!
@@getpoopeduponkid2059 a pilot who had no other choice because he lost his pilot's license, but wants to continue working for his airline in some other capacity because he still has seniority and retirement benefits.
@@getpoopeduponkid2059 Well they can't do that now, can they?😅
Super random dude but I’m an LST and just wanted to say thanks because I stumbled upon your videos during a major anxiety attack and I don’t know what it is about you but the calmness you have got me through it. I think it’s because you remind me of my brother because he’s a pilot so just wanted to say thanks and wish all the best
As a military navigator I have twice experience having both pilots fall asleep. It happens.
Would they fall asleep 😴 in a car?
Come on Man!
@@djdigital3806right and we are talking about endangering the lives of other people.
I have worked overnight shift since 1988 and I now have no trouble - USUALLY - staying awake, overnight. However, I have worked with guys who are looking fine, talking to you....laughing.....and BAM!!! out cold in seconds. I also always have an old G-Shock watch that has a LOUD alarm and if there is any question about falling asleep, I set the countdown timer for whatever period of time I feel would be good and put it on 'repeat' and.....well, THAT has saved my bacon on a couple occasions, over the years.
Having BOTH pilots out cold for 80 minutes is, really, kinda scary......the sound of that guys voice on the radio tells the tale....he KNEW.....and he knew THEY would know......a very expensive nap. Sorry they had to find out the hard way, but always sleep in shifts, if you must....
Hope they arent flying cargo's of rubber dog s'it out of Taiwan...
Well! If you are that kind of an expert. That you know like a magical. That the captain just woke up and have been sleeping for 80 min. Frrom just a crappy ATC sound system. They schould. You start to work for MI6 as a spy. Or as a really crappy FAA investigation. Becouse that could have happens. But the only one that really know are the pilots. 4:10
I've done shift work, and to me, the only way to pull it off successfully is to change your sleep cycle to match the shift.
yeah, there really is NO WAY around that if you are not working a 'rotating shift' which is the worst possible thing you can do to a human being.......the Southland Corp found out the hard way that requiring a weekly rotating shift for all employees put 7-11 largely out of business in Florida in very quick order about 20 years ago. @@kenbrown2808
Great video. But I was distracted the whole time wondering about the "meowing". Lol! That's hilarious!
I was a radio guy in the Navy and we constantly monitored 121.5 crossing oceans. Heard a few strange things a time or two, and have heard emergencies as well. Glad those pilots woke up otherwise that plane would have flown until the tanks were empty.
I always thought I’d never fly because of crippling fear however I love information especially accurate information & because of Kelsey I honestly think I may be able to brave a flight ✈️ hopefully soon THANK YOU 74 ❤❤
I used to fly on the US Navy P-3 Orion. I remember one late nite across the Pacific heading to New Zealand I think it was. My seat is right behind the cockpit so I’ll wander into the cockpit occasionally to stretch my legs. One time it was about 0300 local and I walk up to 2 pilots and 1 flight engineer sound asleep. Autopilot was working great that nite. I slipped back to my seat and called the cockpit on the intercom, a few times, to tell them I was ready for a radio call and did they want to add weather. I never said anything to them or the rest of the crew. They’d never do anything unprofessional on purpose.
As a Sensor 3 on a P-3B, I can also vouch that occasionally occurred.
@@rodneyheintz44 I was in VP-17 Rodney. You?
VP-10. Brunswick 76-80.
Kelsey in this case .... the passengers were landed in a different State then the one they book a flight for .... because their pilots fell asleep. Not a great result or look for the airline - NW here.
Very interesting video again Kelsey.... looking forward to the next one.. Roger... Pembrokeshire UK
Thank you for a nice video. I just wanted to mention, that there is a final report for the incident and if it is the same incident I remember, the pilots were on their personal laptops in the cockpit having a spirited discussion about their airline's new route bidding system and totally lost track of time.
Something to take into account. A lot of the FAA rules and regulations are written in blood. It is likely that the rules about pilots sleeping in the cockpit is a carryover from before autopilot was a thing. However, that doesn’t change the fact that in a lot of cases, someone had to of gotten into an accident for that rule/regulation to exist. However, we also have to admit that the FAA is the reason why American air travel is one of the safest in the world.
The FAA is the reason why air travel is *less* safe than it could be. Burt Rutan has talked about that at length.
I would guess it is possible a sleep hygeine thing. if you don't allow napping in the pilot's seat on purpose, it would theoretically reduce the incidence of napping in the pilot's seat on accident. it might also reduce the incidence o coming awake from a dream and grabbing a control you're not supposed to before you're fully awake. hypothetically speaking, of course.
Link
@@edwardwright8127The FAA isn’t the problem as much as the FAA is still stuck in the 1940’s in many of its regulatory history. That’s why they prefer depressed pilots vs pilots maintaining proper mental health. It’s why the Commercial Practical Test has you do some stupid maneuvers that made sense when you were flying a biplane with a whiskey compass. Doing Chandelles and Lazy Eights instead of ‘upset recovery’ training or something useful, etc.
We don’t need to burn down the FAA, we just need to bring it into the modern era.
FAA does a *lot* of stupid shit. Outside of airliner maintenance, the FAA is most likely a net negative to safety.
"We got distracted..." code for "we were napping hard".
There should be a transponder code for that.
@stansdds, like GoAir flight 1002 on Aug 3, 2209 from Honolulu flew past its intended destination of Hilo International Airport by 30 miles after both pilots fell asleep while the plane was on … a flight attended woke them BOTH up !!!!! 😮
I believe that was the crew who was unhappy with the new rostering system and they pulled out their laptops to analyse it and got distracted by that. Mentour Pilot covered that one
@@PrinceAlberts There should also be a code for, “I’m up and have had some coffee”. 😂
I don't think they were napping. I thought they were going over schedules
I was once on a night flight from SFO to FRA and was listening to the radiocommunication which was available on the entertainment system. Air trafic control was calling our plane a few times but without answer. This went on for approx. 15 minutes. When they started to call other planes to request some other comunication ways and to check if our plane has an technical issue I gave one of the flight attendant a hint. Some minutes later the pilots of our plane responded to the air trafic control. ^^
Yeah, right bro.
@@bellboy4074
It's a plausible story but I don't believe it either
This was a great episode Kelsey!
Can only speak from a European perspective.
12:00 we do have 'Controlled rest' ie a 20 min nap. We do have to tick a box stating it happened. Also have several SOPs as how to do it.
But its Encouraged by the company and while Ive only used it sparingly its has been a lofe saver at 3am over central Europe.
Deffently improves safety.
Appreciate how you're such a good communicator whilst keeping the technical jargon to a minimum (or at least explained!). Also appreciate you're not revealing too much sensitive technical detail.
THANK YOU 4 THIS!!
GOOD DAY SIR-
Your observations on napping are spot on
Control rest or in seat napping is a excellent way to ensure rested and alert for approach and landing. Years ago I used to fly a night service from London to Moscow and back to London (A321). I would take with me a blanket and pillow for 45 minutes of control rest each on the return leg. This adds to aviation safety. Now I have a crew bunk in the roof space with flat bed 😊 (A350).
That’s one hell of a distraction to fly over your destination at cruise. That means the airplane flew the entire arrival, got to the end of it and went to heading mode and was just gonna keep going until it ran out of gas.
Yeah, that's what I was picturing this entire time. And neither of them had any situational awareness that they should be at their destination 'soon'? How the hell did neither pilot look at any of their screens for 80 minutes? Brutal.
Hmm…if they were on autopilot for cruise portion they probably didn’t activate the approach mode (zzzz) therefore the autopilot just says yes sir! Straight it is!
@@57Jimmy if the last fix of the arrival is coincident with a fix on the approach it will fly the whole thing using GPS overlay. It just won’t descend because the pilots never gave it a lower altitude to fly. It probably got to the end of the arrival and just went into track or heading
So why didn’t ATC contact them when they flew beyond their flight plan destination?
@@Shwoop uh, because they were asleep, thats the entire thing lol
I could never have been a pilot. The humming/white noise of the aircraft knocks me right out. I get great sleep on jets. ✈️😴
Hey man new subscriber here! You fly my favorite airplane (747) and I randomly stumbled upon your channel. I’m glad I did!
I posted on one of your videos a few months ago that after watching your videos I was no longer afraid of flying and in fact would be flying to Seattle the last week of October. And I must say I AM HOOKED!!!!! The flight was amazing with NO problems and very little turbulence. The highlight of the trip was, I also got to take the Boeing tour which was incredible. I got to to see the two assembly lines (Lines 5 & 6) if im not mistaken that make the new Triple 7 X and the Dreamliner. Unfortunately the Dreamlifter was not there that day but the ecoDemonstrator was and I even got to see the New Max 10 take off with the NASA plane behind it for the contrails study which was really cool. Again if I wasnt already 50 years old I would seriously consider getting my pilots license. But all this is mostly thanks to your videos because before watching you there is no way in hell I would have gotten on a commercial plane. Only problem now is after seeing the Dreamliner being built, when I got home I started looking for trips I could take where I would be on the Dreamliner. I really want to fly on one now. Thanks again Kelsey Keep up the great work. You have definitely got an aviation fan for life now.
Now you must watch Mentour Pilot to get that fright back ….😮
Dreamliner pods are worth the upgrade fee if the flight is over 6 hours
I suggest you to fly in 747 or 777, to feel the acceleration @ take off
It's only 'scary' the first time. I was about 7 years old for my first flight with my Sister, 9 years old, East Coast all the way over to Southern California, by ourselves. Our Mom did tell us about ear popping for ascent and descent, so me and my sister sat in our seats looking like bug-eyed goldfish, mouths gaping open and shut the whole way down. I'm sure we looked hilarious. 😮😐😮😐🤣🤣
Because of you Im longer afraid of flying anymore thank you Kelsey . Turbulence scared the hell out of me, but not anymore.Thank you
Turbulences are actually fun when you try to spot the people hastily fastening their seatbelt or downright freak out without making a sound 😂
Turbulence at least wakes up the pilots.
I also have become less anxious because of Kelsey. We were able to fly to Florida for our 10th anniversary!
Thanks for this interesting video. Kelsey, one day please do a video on the steps for you to become Captain. The challenges, advantages and inconveniences if any.
... onnn guaaard! :) Love the videos, keep up the great work.
I think it's great that they can reapply to get their licenses back. At least in America, if you're a commercial driver and do something bad enough to lose your CDL, you can't reapply. You can only reapply if you choose to demote your license.
“Now, I don’t know what the weather conditions were like.” It’s ok! They didn’t, either!
Hello Capt Obet and Merry Christmas and Happy New Year in advance. Thank you for all your inspirational videos. They are very educational. I just have a quick question.....this was based on something I read a little while ago...
Was the old airport...KAI TAK....considered Captains only landing by some airline specifications?
I know you've been in HKG for a while.
Thank you Captain and I'm still looking forward to meeting with you in Atlanta.
Emmanuel.
I am a train driver and I have to press a dead man's switch every 30 seconds, so no sleeping for me ^^
What’s a dead man’s switch? Interesting 😂
You should do a video on the horse that escaped in a flying 74!
Agree, would love a video on that one!
these F18s at the end of the video, the Airbus 320 and the landscape are very faniliar to me although you neutralized the fighters:-) ....which I appreciate you did as it was a planned happening! I enjoy your content!
This is comforting
How much trouble do the cats get for being on the radio? Lol
Guard cat. 😀
The cats? 😼😸😺😽🙀😾They got Fired!
There are many stories from
Old long haul days of someone waking after a nice sleep to find the rest of the flight deck in happy slumber - and those were three person cockpits - I suspect this happens a lot but just doesn’t get reported.
In the UK - flying international, including into the USA/over it - we have ‘controlled rest’, where one pilot takes that cockpit nap (pillows and blankets included). Then they swap over. Is SOP in our manuals, but the awake pilot is still checked on every 30 minutes (we just alter how that is done).
Great informative video
Wow Kel.... fighter jets outside the flight would definitely make you look and feel like it's an end of life scenario.😮 Great job there young'un 😊
If it was an end of life scenario, they wouldn't let you see them out the window before you went down.
There’s a lot more to this and it was never proven they were sleeping. Petter/Mentour’s video on this same incident is far more detailed and forgiving. Watching that, it does feel like they were distracted and didn’t have their headsets on while trying to figure out Delta’s bidding system (as they were switching from NW to DL). The crew did appeal but dropped the appeal to reapply for their airmen licenses later in 2010. Looks like at least the FO flew again.
I think they were discussing the seniority list after integration.
Thanks, thought this might be the same one Petter covered so well. Why is there no reference in this video as to when this occurred?
@@herbiecactus6687 Yup same one. As to why no reference to when - I'm not sure. I think this is one of those videos where Kelsey threw it out there to highlight some good points, but unfortunately without the same level of detail as Petter provided about this specific incident.
My late friend was a train driver for Eurostar and was one of the first to drive the first Eurostar trains when they first started, and he always said something about when he drives, he has to push a pedal down with his foot every couple of minutes or the cabin will set off an audible alarm and the train will begin to safely slow down by itself until the driver pushes the pedal and they have to manually get the train back to where it was before just in case they were distracted and asleep, the train won’t just go back to how it was before it auto slowed down just in case the driver forgot what speeds they were doing. So it forces the driver to reassess and decide the speed to do.
I flew out of FTL after attending their Air and Sea show. It was pretty cool to see an F-16 on the downwind as we departed. It did feel a bit like being part of the show.
Great to hear Kelsey's perspective on this flight!
American aviation is a strange beast. In some ways world leaders, in other ways fifty years behind the rest of the world.
Inflight naps or controlled rest, whatever you want to call it, really does work and is perfectly safe when done in a disciplined manner.
Hi green eyes, going to watch another entertaining video it’s now 1.30pm in the UK. you’re keeping me up later and later when I’ve watched one video I’m hooked in to watch another video that also entertaining you are such a good narrator.. stay safe on your flights✈️✈️😂😂
That god for you and this info ♥️🇬🇧🏴
I once fell asleep behind a wheel of a car. Luckily, nothing happened as I was out for maybe a second or two, but it scared me shitless. Going into this ride I was already worried about my fatigue level, but I was young and cocky and though of course I could do this. Ever since then I never drive longer than to the petrol station to get cigarettes distances after very insufficient rest. Plus when I am in the passenger seat I make sure to ask the driver whether they are okay or maybe need to switch for a while. Driving for even four hours, even on enough sleep can be very tiring. And that is why, even when my husband has had enough sleep and we’re driving long distance during the day, I make sure to check up on him regularly. I cannot imagine both pilots, with all the training and all the responsibility of not only flying a huge ass piece of machinery worth extreme amounts of money but potentially also a lot of human beings, not being conscious enough to admit that they’re tired/asking one another whether they’re feeling okay and both falling asleep like that. Like I just… what?
My first time driving after getting my license was a 4 hr drive. Near the end of it i remember getting off a highway and the next thing i remember was the sense of falling and instictive hitting of brakes... i came to a rest 4 ft or so from nailing a telephone pole two miles off the highway... would probably have been dead if there wasn't a drop at the edge of the road.
The trip back was broken into 4 1 hr segments lol.
I think I've nodded off too, for a second. It's especially hard sometimes after a hard day's field work, driving home alone in the dark. I try singing and even slapping myself and if that doesn't work, I try to stop, get out and move around for a bit. Even as a passenger I'm always "the pilot monitoring". Once, a long time ago, we had to push a late night drive to another city with some friends. I was in the back seat, "monitoring", everyone else except me and the designated driver was asleep. Then I saw the car slowly veering to the oncoming lane and then the other way, towards the ditch. I asked the driver:"Hey man, you awake?"
"Yes!" (Car coming back under control)
"Sure about that?"
(Pause) "No..."
Now that was scary. Nowadays, when driving with my kids, I ask the one sitting in front to be my copilot, to look out for animals and stuff, and to grab the wheel and pull the handbrake if anything should happen to me while driving. I think it's good to have a "pilot monitoring" with you, just in case.
When my husband lost his driving privilege due to medical reasons, I was concerned about us taking long trips. How would I stay awake, as the only driver? Our first long trip after that was about 400 miles one way, which I figured would be my maximum for one day. A few weeks later, we did the Los Angeles to Colorado journey to see my aunts-- about 1200 miles one way. It was tough planning it out with segments that I could manage each day. I had only one incident where I suddenly realized I was on the wrong side of the road. One incident too many! Thankfully, no one was coming the other way at that moment, but I immediately looked for a place-- any place-- to pull over and get some rest. Earlier that day I had missed a turn. Neither the GPS nor my husband called it, and I drove 40 minutes out of the way before realizing my mistake and getting turned around again. So a navigational error contributed to make the drive longer than it should have been. Otherwise, it was a great trip. I had planned to take two short days for the last leg of the trip home, but I was eager to get home, and made it in one day with no problem. Our son said it was like a horse returning to the stable at the end of a long ride.
I have not given up completely on the idea of traveling like this, but first the pandemic, then some other situations happened. My husband almost always just sleeps as a passenger, so I have no "pilot monitoring" with me. I carry some bottled coffee if needed, even though I'm not really a coffee drinker.