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TOROIDAL PROPS on a Drone - This is Huge!!
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- Опубликовано: 1 мар 2023
- 🚁 DJI AVATA: geni.us/0JFnHA
There was a recent study report done by MIT that tested the efficiency and noise created by toroidal propellers compared to the traditional propellers that DJI uses for their drones. The toroidal propellers are much quieter and more efficient. This could be the future of propellers for all DJI drones in the future. I decided to 3D print a design from @STRIKINGFPV and put them on the DJI Avata to see how they performed. Watch the full video to see all my testing and analysis.
3D Print File Link: www.thingivers...
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/ lukemaximobell
#toroidal #djiavata #toroidalprops
Seems to me a more valid test is to compare the 3D printed toroidal against 3D printed stock propeller design. That takes out the difference in material and manufacturing.
Yeh that’s true!
Smart.
Waiting for a someone to try and cnc them instead. Seems like you could get a much smoother surface.
Also SLA is probably the best application for the smoothness.
So far the best toroidale prop test video for the avata, despite the fact the props are still really rough on the surface. Great comparison and I really hope DJI picks this up and create some less noisy props for the avata with minimal efficiency lost. Thanks
Thanks man! Glad that you enjoyed it 🙌🏼 I really hope DJI tests it out at least and sees if it’s feasible!
Even if it's not "quieter" per se, the fact that the pitch of the props dropped significantly is two huge thumbs up in my book since the lower hum is not as annoying as the high-pitched scream of the default props
However high freq sound doesn't travel as far... I'd like to see a test at distance.
Cool comparison, but lower frequencies will reach out more, so they will be heard from farther away. The original props are more annoying, but will be less audible as the drone moves away. Perhaps a test from a longer distance would have been interesting?
This prop design is all the sudden flooding my recommended section. 😂
Hahaha that's classic RUclips for you 😂
They will be history soon like fidget spinners 😁
Yeah totally NoT an accident
@@AlfieDoug I belive this propeller will last lest longer then fidget spinner
you should've used a 3D printed version of the of the regular propeller; also you should make sure that both propellers weight the same
Also, worth mentioning, that low pitch sound travels greater distance than high pitch.
With 100m distance your standart dji props will be even more quieter than those 3d printed.
On the other hand, your toroidar props are loud and have low thrust because they aren't smooth.
This is true! I think a longer travelled low sound still sounds better than a short travelling high pitch .
Have a speaker on the drone putting out the noise cancelling out of phase sound. Problem sorted. Anyone thought of this? The first two stories on BBC Click this week were about drones and then noise cancelling, so I put them together. Why aren't they noise cancelling wind turbines if they are too noisy?
@@ALucas73Then all energy ‘produced’ by the windmill would be lost in the noisecancelling process, don’t you think?
They sounded a lot quieter to me ❤ and they actually look good on the avata also. Great video bud I’m subscribing
Thanks man! Much appreciated 🙌🏼
So you definitively proved the toroidal are louder. Fantastic.
Thanks for the mention, would be nice to get an actual tag and links to my work if possible 🙃 - it's hard enough keeping track of who's flying my designs and I'm trying to maintain a playlist of those doing so as well.
I originally wasn't going to make an Avata compatible design for the very reason that I didn't want to be partially responsible for people printing these without being aware of the dangers, especially since DJI drones are a lot more fragile and more expensive to repair in the event of a crash, as opposed to the usual carbon-framed FPV gear that most of us are flying with. I had a few people ask me to add an Avata version, but I only did so kinda' on the down-low for the aforementioned reason.
Glad to see they they indeed work in the Avata, but of course it's still hit and miss depending on material, print quality and drone type. The main thing I think most of us have decided, though, is that the toroidals probably suffer more in a ducted application, since the ducts are partially trying to achieve a similar goal to the toroidal design via a different means, and I believe there's a conflict of sorts in that regard.
Fair enough! I've done that now 🙌🏼 That reasoning makes sense. Your designs are really good, so I was confused why it wasn't perfectly designed for the Avata. Yeh these were immensely difficult to print properly, but it made for a good test. Thanks for the design!
@@LukeMaximoBell1 Oh, it's heinous to print, lower layer heights and wider widths can just about get it to work without using supports but it's still rough-as. For the longest time I didn't even get get to test my own designs since I was away from home so I just threw them out there for everyone else to try, so I'm happy and surprised quite a few people got it working, some even getting comparable performance to regular props, though with great effort in printing and finishing (sanding, buffing, etc).
There's a going idea that resin printing is the way to go, but so far it's been difficult since a lot of resins actually need to be printed thicker than some of the FDM parts can be, so it's becoming a toss-up between low weight, thin yet rough FDM printing, or go thicker, heavier but much smoother with resin. Smoothness may be a big priority since a few of my commenters mentioned that they had up to a 40% loss in performance with a 3D-printed prop replica of a normally-injection moulded design, so it's no surprise you're not getting great performance either.
Funnily, in my last video I did 3D-print my toroidal as well as a hex-blade standard prop to compare, and the toroidal beat-out the standard design by a lot. But both lost to real injection-moulded props by a lot as well, lol.
If you're curious, you can check out the playlist of others doing their own testing, particularly @MoppelMat who did the buffing with a Dremel and got amazing performance on his 5" race drone. You're in the list now as well, of course 😉:
ruclips.net/p/PLYXuRA_sySbwa7FRot80kzEA_j4iqWQ_w
Cheers for the tag and links, and have fun with the Avata - maybe one day someone will make real-deal injection-moulded toroidals once the complicated manufacturing (and performance optimisation) is worked out.
@@STRIKINGFPV You might want to try FullControl. This design seems like a perfect fit for what FC can do, albeit it would likely be a ton of work.
The reason it's louder but better sounding is because the sound energy is spread over a wider range of the spectrum. So less peaking around specific frequencies and harmonics. Apple did something similar a few years back by varying the blade spacing of their laptop fans.
This propeller design originates in Tasmania in 1971. It was developed by David B. Sugden, an engineer consulting to The Robbins Company
Very well presented results! Thank you
For the Void: Combine the elements:
To create a combination of a toroidal propeller mixed with a Möbius strip and blade fan inspired by owl biomimicry, we can consider incorporating the following elements:
Design a toroidal propeller with a Möbius strip shape, ensuring it maintains the ring shape while incorporating the one-sided surface of the Möbius strip.
Integrate serrated edges or fine combs on the blades of the propeller, inspired by owl wings, to reduce turbulence and noise.
Optimize the design through computational fluid dynamics (CFD) simulations and testing to ensure efficient and quiet operation.
The toroidal props sounded much better. I hope someone sells them in the future. Thanks for sharing.
Agreed! Hoping DJI is researching this currently!
One sounds like a terrible visit to the dentist, the other sounds like a neighbor landscaping. One is definitely more easily ignored.
Concur with your assessment. The sound is easier on the ears however, your readings reflect a louder output.
Propellers like most everything when applied well, seem like something AI could very quickly number crunch and design thousands of possibilities, virtually test them because we can simulate that well enough, and output the best option. We should really be doing stuff like that with every single product at this point in technology. We may very well have drones and plane designs that are 5x more aerodynamic and quieter than ever, by using the forces surrounding the machines in a more efficient, almost natural way. Like, these new propellers could be a joke compared to what 30 minutes in a well made AI setup could theoretically produce.
I'd love to see production units from Master Airscrew. I'm fascinated by the possibilities.
It might be a less high pitched noise but it will require more energy to rotate the extra mass. In other words, less battery time and shorter flights.
A very good video mate, those propellers are interesting, I subscribe to your channel 😉👍
It’s a great channel. I love seeing innovation and out of the box projects. This channel is great for that.
Thanks man! Much appreciated 😎
It would actually be good to know the necessary power setting comparatively to at least hover
Very interesting and balanced 'review' as it were. Thank you. 😊
The Algo strikes again! It knows 😂 Awesome work👍
Thanks man 😎
Very good test i love the avata but ya the sound is very loud specially around people . I got a new drone today with different propeller and it's 50% more quiet. Now i am on mission to make all my drone more quiet.
Thanks for doing this and sharing.
It was always the hight pitch sound that bothered me not the decibels.
If dji doesnt create one maybe Masterairscrew can produce them.
But what most likely will happen is a manufacturer in china will do it first.
Who ever perfects these first will get my 💰.
Great video. Your responsible conclusion at the end of the video I think was well said and necessary, as there may have been some people to go ahead and try to print these themselves and then expect similar results to their stock props and then have poor results. The video as a "food for thought" for other mod enthusiasts or DJI themselves to begin further exploring the practicality of this design, is where I think the "props" should be given to you. Yes, I am a Dad, so that pun was 100% necessary.
Yeh you will never match a 3D print with injection moulding. Unless maybe you use Resin printing, but I don’t have 1 unfortunately.
@@LukeMaximoBell1 I would like to print it with ABS-like resin. Which of the props [edit:] Meaning which file [/edit] did you use for the Avata? And yes, I am aware of the risks....
@@VlastimirStankovic yeh that would be a much better option. Let us know how it goes. I used the 2.9 inch props.
@@LukeMaximoBell1 sorry, been in the move for the last two weeks and forgot to reply...
The prints are too thin. So, the material breaks off easily at the "tips" and the middle section while removing the supports which in themselves are thicker.
Would it make sense to thicken the profile a bit, especially around the "tip" section?
I used Sunlu ABS-like resin next one will be printed with Nylon like...
GREAT video Luke, really enjoyed watching the compare vid with two recording side-by-side. Since a year has passed, do you happen to know if DJI shows any interest to manufacture toroidal props for any model? I'd love to try them on my Mini2. What app do you use to measure dB and spectrum analysing together? Is it free, cheers from southern France.
Toroidal for the win.
This reminds me of the guy explaining how to open Velcro without anyone noticing it and he just screams over it.
So the key to understand. In water the tor is quieter and more efficient at moving water. But in air the tor is more efficient and moves more air. Hence why you hear a huge difference in the amount of air being moved. My experiments that’s what I’ve found is the key difference. But the efficiency is why you would use them on flying machines. Not so much for acoustics
Wow. What a scientific approach!
I knew that lekka safari accent! Groete uit Duitsland
Axisflying made a kit to increase the performance of the Avata to par and make it a good flying 3.5inch.
The graph on the left shows a lot of spikes. That is where the power is lost and noise is created, causing vibration.
Could it be possible to use that frequency range of the noise and do something like an impedance sound matching to cancel out the noise and make it Stealthy??? It would be like a sound muffler that wouldn't affect the thrust but use a noise frequency speaker that would cancel the wave noise as a disruption. Like when two waves hit each other and cancel each other our or disburse the noise pitch. I don't know for sure but you got me thinking.
It would be interesting to see if you found screws that would work. I have a 5” freestyle quad and the nut was loose. It flew fine but it was incredibly loud. You could hear it for .25 of a mile away!
I’m fairly certain there is no slipping on the axle. But I’ll wait for dji to make these injection moulded 😂
DAMNIT! You just ruined my Hero11 Mini purchase! Very nicely done video with your editing techniques and explanations, dude! I'll still use my GoPro 11 Mini for other reasons when I have other details I need to address, but I gotta say, DJI is killin' it with their updates (as usual) and I appreciate your video!
Hahaha sorry! 😂 you can always sell it though!
conducts audio tests
forgets microphone at home
😂
Hahahaha so true 😂
Toroidal props sound more like an RC car than the high pitched whine of a drone
Am i the only one that likes the hight pich then the lower one?
Yes! 😂
I’d take the pitch over the decibels Anyday. When will they manufacturer these?
it is the big drawback of the Avata.
i bought an Avata last year (never owned a drone before) and wish i'd bought a different one,
can't fly it anywhere urban because of the damn "REEEEE!"
whereas other drones become almost inaudible when they get 20m away,
i have flown my Avata faaaar away and can still hear the "REEE!" echoing around my neighbourhood.
Agreed 😞 I really hope version 2 is WAY quieter. It stops me from using the Avata quite a lot.
Hi Guys where to find cad digrsm for Avata teroidal props?
Military submarine propeller design is a closely guarded secret, to the point where no picture is available to the public. It’s supposed to be quieter. I gotta wonder if we civilians just independently discovered something that the US Navy has used for years.
I give you props for testing ANY 3D printed props on a $$$ drone. While it does sound quieter subjectively, Im more intererested in the efficiency of these props.
Hey man this is a very cool test you did there! Do you know if there are actually someone making the toroidal props commercially? Thanks!
i think your drone was putting a lot more effort on its engines due to the lack of lift. maybe with higher pitch of the blades (scaling on the Z axis] should lead to less rpm of the prop, less noise and better flight time.
I feel I'm gonna need these props immediately 😂. It's louder but the higher pitch is mostly gone.
This is the power of science right? lol
Hahaha agreed. That whine from the Avata is intense. I cringe when I hear it! Haha
Great Video!
Even the foldable drones could use the teroidal propeller, just kept in the case unless less noise is needed..
Hey look up air zipline drone propeller. It's a propeller that uses technology in nature to reduce noise. Cool looking propeller,tho.
I saw Mark Rober’s video about it. That prop design is fascinating!
High frequency noise is less able to propagate in distance, so shifting the noise spectrum towards low frequency part is actually not favourable in my opinion.
Great test! Lower thrust and efficiency seems consistent with the 3D printed Toroidal prop tests. This would cause me to believe that they may not be able to achieve a higher motor RPM, which could possibly be why they are less whinny. I wonder if a more streamlined, molded Toroidal prop would change the noise frequency to be more consistent with a traditional prop.
That could be true. But they hit high enough RPM to hover at least! I think if they were designed properly they would be quieter overall.
@@LukeMaximoBell1 To me, it's similar to when I go from Gemfan Wind Dancer props to Gemfan Sbang props, the narrower chord and lighter weight on the Sbang props make them spool up quicker and achieve higher RPM, at the expense of some low end thrust. At hover the sbangs have a higher frequency whine (higher RPM/Less drag). The Sbang props are a bit more efficient in my loose testing, but there are a lot of variables of course.
I am looking forward to test data from the molded Toroidal props in the works from Gemfan and HQ.
any follow up test on lift an efficiency?
I haven't remade these props because they are so finnicky and shatter so easily.
If only the industry could come up with a significantly quieter and less harsh sound from drone props. There are many people like me who would like to get into the hobby but just can't bare the awful noise.
Are they available for a DJI inspire?
Have you tried these out? These propellers are designed by ZipLine based on Owls and Humming Birds. The actual propellers look like a tuning fork. Here is an example: ruclips.net/video/DOWDNBu9DkU/видео.html
I’ll check it out!!
Have a speaker on the drone putting out the noise cancelling out of phase sound. Problem sorted. Anyone thought of this? The first two stories on BBC Click this week were about drones and then noise cancelling, so I put them together. Why aren't they noise cancelling wind turbines if they are too noisy?
because wind turbines was never made to be of any real use, in a few years there are none left
the duct on your drone is probably not helping the torodial, the inherent design on the torodial prop is sort of self ducting
3d print with resin 3d printer. and test again. also test the flight time and power :)
FYI: It's "toroidal", not "toroidial" (sounds like "tor-oid-eed-ul")
hi Luke. great video. I see some hope here because what annoyed me the most is hair drier noise. Will this help reduce the hair drier noise?
Yes it should! Wait for DJI to create these!
In the next test wear protection for your eyes👍🏽
Would resin printed tpu work better?
Yes definitely! But I don’t own one 😭🙈
You should try them out on your other drone. The prop enclosure might not work well with this new design
That’s possible!
Thanks for the efford. But hard to agree that toroidal concept works out on drones. The result speak for itself. Not even quiter. Moreover, added lower pitch noise. It works on boat in water. But air is a completely different median I guess.
You might be right! Let’s wait and see
What did you use to print them, Petg or pla?
I used PETG 🙌🏼
Pretty groovy
Thanks!
The main problem is the 3D print finiture I guess , try to make it in forged carbon
Yeh agreed! These are so hard to print 😂
Titanium would be interesting to use for the props. Being that the avata is ducted I don’t think it would be a significant safety risk but would probably be the most efficient material I can think of. And they’d never break :) Great video. I always love your content!
Whoah that would be wild 😂 probably extremely expensive. Carbon fibre might be a more realistic option. Thanks so much and I’m glad you enjoyed it 🙌🏼
Maybe cast aluminum would be cheaper and easier. A crafty person could do that at home with a $130 smelting furnace on Amazon.
That would be quite a fun project! I would consider it 😂 but I think it is good if there is a bit of flex in the props. Just like how planes wings have to be flexible otherwise they will snap.
@@LukeMaximoBell1 I never claimed to be an aeronautical engineer. I’m just a Marine Corps vet and anything I say should be taken with a pound of salt haha. I saw a video a while back where props were made from an aluminum can so I guess anything is possible!
If you want to slice people's appendages off metal props would be perfect.
okay now how you removed de SD CARD
Well, honestly the FFT graphs don't look that dissimilar to me and I would say the toroidal props sound louder and more annoying. More like the higher frequencies are the same and the lower frequencies are louder. But perhaps it's different in real life...
Is this design making the sd card access worse?
These props are much more difficult to shape and optimize than traditional props, plus the manufacturing limitations of 3D printing will easily overshadow any inherent benefit the design could provide.
Agreed. We’ll see what the big boys come out with!
So it's basically louder but quieter.
The quietist props you’ll get on any quad will be 6 or 8 blade props
Try using HQProp Duct-89MMX8 Cinewhoop 8-Blade Propeller they are much quieter than toroidals
They look like Biohazard logos.
Installing and removing propellers doesn't take that long. In fact I bet you can install all 4 multiple times in the time it takes for the drone to complete booting and finding enough satellites.
Where can i find the stl of these pls
Search for Strikingfpv on thinginverse and you should find it!
how hard is it to add a link to the "recent study report done by MIT"?..
Almost as hard as googling “MIT Toroidal Propeller” 😂
is it n times harder, where n is the number of people who have to google it themselves?
As a sound engineer, I smell shenanigans....
Hahaha why? Don’t know how I would have faked anything 🙈
@@LukeMaximoBell1 33% quieter??? And yet the readings are louder.... And you didn't thing I would notice the audio dip. You ducked the audio when the toroidal began to fly.
@@33rdframe the 33% quieter was a bit of click bait 😂 but the audio levels are matched to what it sounded like.
To me that's a night and day difference
The Avata looks like a great drone but damn the sound is so off putting that I think I will not get it for that reason alone.
Interesting test. Btw its toroidal, not toroidial.
The torodial sounds better. The DJI is really like a dentist drill. I felt the pain in my teeth just by listening to that thing.
I go back mine cause too noisy
"Toroidial"?
Now after me. TOR-OID-AL. not TOR-OID-EE-AL
I know 🙈🙈🙈 sorry!
@@LukeMaximoBell1 Hi Luke. Sorry for being rude while trying to be funny. You vid was very informative. Thanks
Toroidal propellers have almost no advantages in the tunneled setup - they are trying to do the same as the tunnel.
It will be much better if they are a proper injection mold. The problem is the patent issue. Maybe china will just say yolo and send it anyway?
Agreed! Injection moulded is the way. I don’t think it is patented? Is it?
Make the mosquito noise go away!
Why do you keep on saying: toroid-ee-ul ???
Hahahaha I know! I realised halfway through shooting that I was pronouncing it completely wrong 😂
You loose 25% to 30% thrust with those, you cannot optimize them, it's a downgrade. Toroidal blades work better pushing dense melecules like water, air is too thin. They will make even more noise at same thrust and the spin up time is terrible because of the extra weight
Toroidal. Not: “toroidial”.
ToroiDAL not ToroiDIAL
💪👑👑👑👑💪
i find them both noisy. was expection much more silent
Interesting. 😂 Nice try.👍🏿 Cheers! 🍻
It's toroidal not toroidial