Honda CBR 650 Unrestricted VS Kawasaki Ninja 650 Unrestricted | Moore Mafia ECU Flash
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- Опубликовано: 26 июл 2022
- The customer brought his Honda CBR650 in for a Moore Mafia ECU flash and dyno tune to get more horsepower out of his bike.
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Thank you to Chris for tuning my bike, glad I wasn’t to far of a ride away to get it to you but personally it was definitely worth it, it rides much smoother and sounds even better. It may or may not shoot blue flames now too 🫢🤫 anyway I’ll be getting a different exhaust In the near future and I’ll definitely be sure to bring it back! @moore mafia
Hey i have a 2020 cb650r. Dose the cbr650r have the same flat spot from about 6-8k rpms? If so was the tune able to fix it?
@@StevieGTO4 I’m not sure that the CBR650R has a flat spot, it may be because it’s a naked bike? I genuinely have no clue so don’t quote me 😅😅
Hey mate I got same bike cbr 650 r 2021 here in Sydney and bike is totally different after woolich ecu and full system akra exhaust
@@brycewilliams5941 can I ask where did u order the side extended fairings plz
@@sunnyagnihotri675 sorry about the late response, I got them off Amazon, they look great but honestly I wouldn’t buy them again, they cracked where the clamp mounted to the frame and the pieces
As an owner of a CBR650R, I love it. I’ve raced Ninja 650s and others. The CBR does a damn good job at keeping up with 600s. The 600s just have a faster acceleration and a higher top speed. But it keeps up nicely.
It's a great class of bikes. Very good value for the money. Wish we could get some MT-07/XSR700 and SV650/X on the shop for additional data.
5:19 Someone needs to make a Moore Mafia sound FX compilation. Chris makes the best bike sounds. 😄👍
😆 🤣
Glad you are giving content to guys with not as deep pockets
i enjoy this channel so much that i dont even skip the intro when i do on every other video lol
I own one exactly like this bike. The power doesn't really kick in until 6k rpm but when it does hit 6k, hold on its fast. I love this bike because it handles so well! Best handling bike ( for what the bike costs) I've ever rode!!
“If you weight 260lbs” 😂😂😂
Keep up the motivation and knowledge!!
The sound this bike makes with an aftermarket exhaust is just too good (for the amount of money the bike costs in general)
You are correct sir! Twins are torquier than inlines. I've ridden both types. Same reason HD is good in 1/8th mile.
Moore flashed my 2017 ninja 650, runs great, loads better than the fuel controller it had. The CBR also weighs 50lbs more wet than the ninja. pretty huge.
Finally! Been waiting for you to do a cbr650r! I have one and seeing what they make!
Luckily I was only abt 5 hours away so it wasn’t bad, glad Chris and I could help you and others out with this because I know I was in the same boat, ride safe 👍🏼
My first bike was a ninja 650. Glad to see it on your dyno cheers m8
Nvm got trolled thought you were tossing a ninja on the dyno :/
That was pretty cool to see
I wanted to see the Ninja 650's torque curve vs the CBR650.
Yes, what happened to the "versus" part of this video.
Awesome vid bro cool upgrades so I brought all these thumbs ups for ya algorithms fam 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍🔥💥💫
That's crazy you can't tune out the soft fuel cut, that bike seems like it would keep pulling.
So excited that you dynoed something different. I'm looking to the 600 class for one, this might help.
Must be amazing to get to ride beautiful bikes! It’s been my dream to ride forever but med bills have ruined that so watching you is awesome! Hopefully one day I can experience how great it is to ride
Keep grinding! Make your dream a reality one day at a time 💪
great video. i just send out my ecu for my 2021 cbr650r👍🏼 from new york!!
Hopefully it helps as much as it did mine, and glad I could get the bike in the shop for you and/or anyone else looking to see what the bike will make, ride safe 👍🏼
Just got my ninja 650 tuned by you guys and I absolutely love it!
How much power did it make
@alitoroganan2442 I think my peak was 64 or 67hp, but I've also done a lot of mods to it, and I'm 140 lbs.
How does nobody see that the 2x ft/lbs of torque reading is off? The bike should be in the 40s stock.
Well they race the 650 twin at the Isle of Man, so it's durable and quick.
Those Kawasaki engines are highly tuned for the Isle, making around 90 wheel HP.
Whoa whoa whoa 😳 a brand knew video !!! I can't wait to bring my 14 down and set that dyno on fire 🔥 j/k....I hope I'm not foreshadowing and my bike blows up. Lol
Hey I've been waiting for this video. I have a cb650r and it has a weird flat 6-8 rpm. Where you able to feel it before and after?
Wicked to see you playing around with the entry level bikes. I'm from Australia and when we first get our licence we are limited to lams bike I got a cbr650r and on the first ride I found it really slow and boring since having it de-restricted its a totally different bike.
Be carefull bigg fines if your riding unrestricted and found out x3 and yeah it basically doubles the power unrestricted, the ninja you only get 65%fuel and air at full throttle restricted
What was the difference in mpg between this and the stock tune? Just wondering what the trade off would be, as that graph looks sexy!
Also, when getting bike inspected, will bypassing the 02 sensor(how you do it) effect that?
You guy's flashed my 21 ninja 650 night and day difference, definitely can tell the difference, the front end gets light at time's coming out of 1st gear going into 2nd and even 3rd gear, I love my bike have 8500 miles on it bought it new last March, I really want a 750 now Don't really see the need for a liter bike but who knows maybe one day.
=>1000cc or bust
Well when it comes to horsepower freaks , enough is never enough and even more is better but still not completely satisfying . The have problems... I would know my name is popsmoke and I have a h.p. problem
@@Popsm0ke nicely said. LoL
Dude i wasn’t sure but i read your comment and now im 100% removing the stupid restrictions and tuning it but i have a couple questions how much hp did u have before and after and whats the top speed now thank you in advance🫡🙌
@@hamodekhatib625 not really sure on HP 8t was a beginner bike but completely worth the Moore Mafia ECU flash.I got it up to 131 on my 650. My new bike 22 zx10r I went with BT Moto spent about 1100 between their stage 1 and stage 2 flash in the end I wish I would have taken my zx10r to Moore Mafia I don't really see my money's worth out of it, TBH I'm thinking of taking it back to stock and sending my ECU into Moore Mafia
11.5k RPM is where the red line is on the 2015-2018 CBR650F/CB650F. Kind of makes sense that the same engine (slightly tweaked) is showing an anomaly at this point.
Just wondering if I need to keep the bike quiet, how much gains does only removing the cat + remaping give ? Like if im keeping the stock exhaust slip on ?
Nice video. The problem with this particular CBR650R and why you couldn’t get any real power gains is down to the eBay cheap exhaust. These exhausts increase the sound level however reduce power. Hence why they are cheap. Having Dyno tuned both bikes with an ECU flash you only get significant gains with the more expensive full systems. For both bikes the matching Akro systems provide the biggest gains with a K&N air filter. No need for a PC5 either.
What? What scientific evidence do you have to back that up? I don’t see how a name brand stamp increases hp?
The CBR is definitly a sportier bike, but for the price I'd rather spend a little more and go with a ZX6R or z900. I currently have a 2020 Ninja 650 and love it. Especially after the ecu was flashed by Moore Mafia. Makes a world of difference.
True but this bike vs the better zx6r imo is a massive change in insurance cost.......if you get insurance
Can you please let me know how much hp u gained after the tune im guessing it was restricted to 47 hp like mine and whats the top speed im really exited to tune mine so you think its worth it?
I also have the 2020 ninja 650 by the way
@@hamodekhatib625 I've never had the bike on a dyno before or after the tube. I simpy sent my ECU and had it flashed so I have no clue if there is any actual HP increase. The bike feels faster and smoother, but that's just from what I can feel and gauge from riding. I've rode probably 3-4k miles since having it tuned and it definitly feels quicker and the biggest thing is how smooth the throttle is. I'm a bigger guy 6ft5 and about 215-220lbs. The top speed I have been able to obtain was 131mph on the spedo. Probably only about 120mph realistically.
GSX-8R enters the full fairing sporty bike category. Similar power than the Honda 650 probably, but a good bit more grunt.
I have a 2020 cbr 650 r with a dominatoR full exhaust system. I weight 180 and hit 150mph only once because I think I had the wind blowing in my direction. Because I can pull to 130 pretty quick and then 130-140 takes forever. Let alone 140-150.
I found some velocity stacks for the Ninja 650 from KSPP, I think the top end is killed by the soft rubber ones that flex and close up at higher revs.
I see that you disable O2 sensors and tune the AFR yourself. We can see that you do it spot on for wide open throttle. What about part throttle AFR? Do you tune that as well? Because without O2 sensors the ECU can't do it by itself.
Sounds pretty good. Much better than ninja.sound.
I have spent too much money on my N650 to turn back now. ZX6R forks + a custom rear shock mostly.
Afr of the cb650r with that mods isn’t that bad at all, it does lean afr when you close the throttle because of the pair valve
Do i need to tune my bike before ecu flash i have the same bike and do i need to ship u my ecu flash or i can buy it throught ur website.ready?
Do top speed runs on all of your Dyno vids. And it's such a good idea 💡 I wish you would have been doing that a long time ago! It's definitely super interesting.
Yooo i have a question, have you ever done a yamaha fz6, not the fz6r or r6, but the 2007 fz6?
like button smashed 👊
Is it still safe to run the bike at stock ecu after full exhaust?
Hi. Got 2018 ninja 650 . First bike in 20 years. Like what your doing.
Love this bike, it's probably what I willl get next if I don't move to a Ninja 1000 SX. It's interesting that tuners in Thailand have got these up to almost 100 WHP. They get over 100 WHP with cams which makes sense.
What cams do you know that they're using? I've been trying to find aftermarket cams for the 650R for a while, and didn't know anyone made any.
@@ive.t I'm sorry I don't know the exact cams. I'm not sure if they were ever listed in the Thai tuning videos on RUclips. They may have even been custom regrinds. Have you contacted Dan Crower Racing? They may have a set or be able to grind one for you.
@@glsracer Thanks for the reply. I'll inquire; hopefully I can come up with a good cam profile from which to have them grind one. Looking at custom pistons to bump up the compression ratio also. I totally know I could get a different bike that's faster already for less money than what I'm willing to put into the 650R, but I just enjoy the bike that much! Cheers, mate - thanks again.
@@ive.t I think the 650R has the best balance of performance and comfort in the class right now. The CBR500R I have has slightly better comfort and fuel range but I have regrets not picking up a 650R before they became unobtantium.
That Honda looks so much better. That’s a big deal for me I’m so into looks.
Lol what a biker. Or should i say pre Madonna.
@@earthelucidator when purchasing your own motorcycle it’s YOUR motorcycle, meaning you buy it because of your own reasons and preference. No need to hate on other riders. Plus he’s right, my bike is pretty sexy 😘
Computer controled throttle plates close a bit on my 2023 ninja 650 when I hit redline which stops you from going past 130mph in 6th gear.
Cool to see some beginner bike love
Wow. 160 mph is a beginner bike? What sort of bike do pros ride? 🤪
I have a question do you think it would be possible without adding boost to achieve 120 hp on the Honda CBR 650R If so, what mods would you suggest?
ALSO, after year, you found a way to get rid of the soft cut?
Hoping To get a reply, lol
Wonder if a set a velocity stacks, and maybe a set of cams would help if they make cams
Bought the cbr and mivv full system just need.to tune the beast
Why do you have to unplug the O2 sensor?
All imma say is my mate who has a ninja 650 has ridden my CBR650F and he said he has to get one.
I rode his before i got mine, for weeks i said i wanted a Ninja 650, then i changed to a CBR500 then my 650F popped up and i got it straight away. Never looked back since.
What is your opinion on the eBay exhaust
......................................... Chris, have you ever dyno tune a Yamaha FZ-6 ???
I have 2006, all stock, R6 model motor, 112 HP... would love to see you tune one !!!
Did 11.80 @ 118mph at Fontana Ca. in 2020... First time ever at the track !!!!!
I got a 22 ninja 650 wit a toce full exhaust im trying to get my euc flashed I need it bit more then stock
Hey dude, just wanna say, the mivv gp pro for my cbr 650 r costs in germany 670€
Fun Fact: The Paton Kawasaki uses the 650 twin engine (at 700cc) and makes 112hp........at the rear wheel.
The ninja 650 engine in the Paton is not stock. It's had thousands of dollars worth of mods to make 112.
I was thinking myself, those torque numbers sounded a bit low from what I've researched.
I've been thinking about getting a cb650r
Great vid chris
Just to compare my cbr made 90whp @ 12000rpm and 47lb.ft here in uk. Full akra. Mwr filter. Pairvalve blank running 99 fuel.
Was flashed using woolich also. As u say was crazy lean in midrange but didnt need to touch the top. Fuelling was bang on with the 02 so just used the same parameters in the flash. Not sure if it would make any more adding fuel and timing? Have seen them make 96whp in japan. Didnt see any other restrictions as mine is euro4. Also has mechanical throttle not ETV. In your opinion is it worth trying some velocity stacks? as the stock ones are pea shooters...thanks. great content.
Edit: also did 162mph with no mirrors im 165lbs.
Who did your tune? 90 whp is good! Did they eliminate the soft cut limiter?
Parkitt racing in tuxford. Dont think it had soft cut to be honest. Whether thats because its EU spec or because it was pre euro5 which came in 19/20. Graph doesnt show any drop off. Its not exactly a missile but is plenty for urban riding.
I’ve looked into some velocity stacks and an actual akro exhaust and a few other things, as soon as they’re all in I’ll have it back on chris’ dyno and we’ll see what it makes from there. Thank you for the info and ride safe 💪🏼🙏🏼
It’s difficult to compare. Different dyno’s produce different numbers for the same bike. Plus other factors like ambient temperature, altitude can give different results. Has the dyno you used tested a stock cbr650r to give a baseline? Question about the MWR filter, does it actually filter well? Oiled foam filters are used on dirt bikes, so I would think yes, but I’m not sure I believe it flows more air than a stock paper filter. A k&n flows more air but with time will ruin your engine, because it’s a shitty filter.
@@chuck1622 he had 2 more on stock 80-82 range. I never did mine stock. Put the parts on first and baseline was 87wheel. 45tq. Filter was pretty good but have no comparison was just cheaper than buying a sprint. Sold it now onwards and upwards. Great first bike though.
Chris, how did it feel at cruising speeds after the flash, was it smoother? And how about the on and off feel of the fueling...these are my main concerns with my cb1000r 😁
I didn't hear when you said it smoothed but on the road how did it feel?
It feels much better for certain, before the tune if I let off the throttle it would almost throw me off in a sense but now it’s much smoother on the deceleration and acceleration aswell
Do you guys flash CBR250R?
85hp???? I got 92 out of mine and 46 fpt I'm watching vids to compare dynos looks like they did a good job...looks like everyone is getting 89 to 93...this is the lowest one..great vid tho very detailed
Dynos are for tuning.
The 2024 has 94 hp.
How much should a guy be expecting to pay for this type of test and adjustment?
How (exactly) does the tune smoothen the on//off throttle response ? What is done, what does the difference (feel like) ?
Whenever I let off my throttle (before the tune) I’d would almost throw me in a way, but now it’s much softer as soon as I let off the throttle 👍🏼
@@brycewilliams5941 yeah that's the main reason I'm thinking of sending mine in off my 22 cbr650r. The throttle is really jerky at low speed. Probably going to wait until my warranty is up next fall tho.
21 ft lbs of torque has to be an error 250s make that amount normally
That is what I was thinking too. And 83hp is way too high for the CBR
Cbr650 has 85-90hp stock
@@moustachio334 Well, that is a nice HP for a 'beginner bike'.
@@scottieray CBR650 is 95hp stock. Wheel horsepower will of course be in the 80s
It was an error if you watched the video, it made 43 ft lb
I guess the same thing will happen with the CB650r the naked one. Right? 😅
Hey I have a question like on black momba and bikes that powerful,along with a swing arm why don't y'all run a 300 rear tire wouldn't that give more traction? Just wondering keep the content coming thanks
Class rules, simple as that.
.....no those big tires are for looks only , I seriously doubt that alot of r&d went into design. Plus the set up requires a jack shaft which is just more mechanical parts to possibly break. Those big heavey parts would take a beating plus rob crazy horse power. Think of this anyway mamba is already putting that 700 hp to the ground, look at the front tire floating around all the way down the track
Thanks for the reply's they all make sense, didn't realize a jackshaft was a part of the 300 rear deal,my thoughts were more along the lines of leaving the line quicker,the jackshaft wouldn't that give you another opportunity to fine tune the gearing instead of just 2 sprockets would it give you more options and take some stress off of the engine housing, again thank you for the reply's I love learning from this channel tuning in particular interest tf out of me,it's hard to find information the way it makes sense to me,I do understand it's how people put food on there table so,can't be mad about anyone not just saying here's my lively hood take it lol
@@bluntduhon6740 . If they wanted to mess with fine tuning the gearing it would be done in the transmission.
@@Popsm0ke makes sense,thanks again
Kawi powa!
I've never seen this soft rev limit in any other dyno graphs for these bikes. I wonder what caused it?
Earlier version of this engine redlines at 11.5k. Probably something residual from this design. The later versions were fettled to give a higher hp score for the brochures. Most people riding this will ride 4000 - 8000 RPM 99% of the time.
6:30 can confirm at 240 it tops out at 130 almost exactly
Between a 400 and 650 with the flash what’s the best choice for your money and of course we are sending you the ecu!
@mooremafia
Damn thats not a big power gain on the cbr, i have the naked version of this bike and planning to full tune it but if i see this i dont know if its worth the 2k, akra, air filter, block offs, and the tune. What should i do??
Honestly I think it’s a personal choice situation, I did what I’ve done to it because I liked it, your bike is your own creation so do with it whatever makes you happy man, just be safe riding 😁👍🏼
The reality is it is not a super sport so don't try and make it one. It's not going to happen unless you replace it with an RR or RR-R 😜
That being said I love my 650r. It's faster than 90% of the vehicles on the road and costs 10k brand new. Hard to beat imo.
Well for sure I would go with the CBR650…
Are the Honda's wheels really dirty or do they come that way?
No those were q3+’s and I had just rode the bike 5 hours to get it to his shop😅😅 they replaced them since I was fairly close to my replacement point 👍🏼👍🏼
@@brycewilliams5941 alright, and nice bike man!
‘07 Ninja 650R, tops out 130, speedo wouldn’t budge but then again I’m hefty and suspension “floats” so 0 confidence
I've had my cbr 650r to 141 on an honest run ( no wind at my back pushing me and a flat runway, not down hill)
I'm 6'1 and 240lbs with all my gear on. So not much difference between them I guess.
When I was 18 I bought my first bike(starter bike) . 2001 GSXR-600. In 3 months I was upset I didn't get the 750..
3 years later I got my CBR1000-RR
My buddy was buying his first bike. I told him to get a CBR954-RR. He never had a problem.
You keep saying Ninja 650 when referring to the CBR for some reason. Confusing.
It is interesting indeed. However the CBR650R outrun the MT09 top speed. Aerodynamics are better of course. But the Ninja 650 really does not stand a chance against the CBR650R 😂 Chris I highly recommend you check what the guys in Thailand do with the CBR650R, they really have a way to make it almost compete with the r6, 600rr, zx6r etc. Here's the link: ruclips.net/video/tKy1sVhMtQA/видео.html
SBK SuperbikesKit - In China having all the restrictions you can buy the Thai ECU's for just about any bike too!
Top speed is gearing you dumb dumb.
those two bikes are not comparable to each other.. once the engine configuration changes from 2 cylinder to 4 cylinder the entire discussion is over.
a 4 cylinder will always develop more horsepower and smoother delivery given the same displacement of the engines. you have 2 less power pulses per rotation of crankshaft.
meaning the engine has to rotate a longer distance before the next pulse of energy from combustion.
still interesting to see how significant a difference there is. my buddy has a ninja 650.. his top speed with his gearing is barely 130.
That is true and a very valid point but that isn’t the point of the video, the point of the video was to see how much more power he could make with what I had on the bike and to compare two bikes that are in their own class “division” per-say, but regardless still very true claims 👍🏼
Comparing a twin 650 ninja to the CBR inline 4 650 isnt quite fair. At least top speed. The ninja still does the same 0 to 60 mph as the CBR though. 3.5 seconds. Save 2 grand and get the ninja. Unless you plan on doing 150 plus often.
I know you are in the business to sell a tuning service, but it does not look like there really is much that an ECU tune can actually improve on the Honda CBR 650R.
(Is this a true statement), and if so, it is not really worth it (no great benefit) to even bother doing an ECU tune to the cbr650r ?
I'm sending mine in purely to get rid of the snatchy throttle at low speed and pick up 5 hp. In the process. I completely understood that my 650r was not and never will be a super sport bike.
I had both z650 and cbr 650 I feel under 4000 rpm z650 is way better because of its twin parallel torque
Big difference would be where the power is at. Ninjas make it lower due to being a twin.
the honda makes more power across the entire rev range
@@dannyb9083 quick Google search showed otherwise. They're close and the Honda comes out on top at the top. Ninjas has a little more torque that comes in quicker. Where I live, I'd choose the Kawi. But we all got our preferences.
@@jerryaduvall in the video the Dyno graph clearly shows the Honda on top everywhere. Kawasaki might have short gearing but the engine is weaker.
@@wudntulike2no32 that’s why he said it’s a preference, no need to argue about it, that wasn’t why I brought the bike to Chris, and plus the Kawi and Honda are both the same “class/division” so the argument doesn’t necessarily stand as strong as opposed to say a zx6r and CBR600rr, it just means that the two companies decided with different plans for different bikes 👍🏼
@@brycewilliams5941 there are no preferences in a dyno chart, it's science. He stated the ninja makes more torque " lower due to being a twin" which it clearly doesn't and is factually incorrect.
Kawasaki's 650 are really just meeeeh. I think they are well overdue for a Ninja 700 with 70 -100 HP. I bought the 400 because I felt the 650 was just not justified for the mere increase in power and huge price differences.
i think the 400 is more sporty...but as a GT the 650 is nice, but i think i prefer the 400
The cbr650r is okay by itself... but it’s more expensive than a z900 and an mt-09 ..... they are much better and cheaper ..... so who is it for ?
Me :) and other people that like a commute bike and a sport bike in one or for others that don’t want to jump to high like a 600+ from a smaller bike
That's 100% opinion and 0% fact. Shouldn't base your decision on cost alone. 🤷 Just saying.
kawasaki zx6r not kawasaki 650 are compared..because they are inline four...
Youre shot...
Agree. These 2 comparison are not quite fair. Ninja does 0-60 the same time the CBR does. 3.5 seconds.
True but the zx-6r is a super sport whereas the cbr650 is a sport and is more limited
Also cbr250rr 2cylinder. All gen have kinda like speed limiter in 6th gear. What they user usually do is to is. Actually I didn't know well. They like unplug 6th gear sensor and plug it to 1st and same like 6th gear , the 1st gear sensor, plug it to 6th gear. Then before like 180kmh on spedometer, after some plug unplug it able to hit 199 on spedometer.
Hi Chris, I have a top speed video of the CBR650R on my channel.
She’s 21’ model year, with an Arrow full system, and a Sprint air filter. It pulls right up to 162mph with me on it.
Check it out!
P/S: I have also owned a 21’ Z650!. And it’s more fun than the CBR650R.
The cbr650 I don't think should be classified as a beginner bike, it clearly has supersport power
I started on a 2018 cb650f same motor as this and loved it two years and 30k miles and I upgraded to a cbr1000rr
@@mrsmagik1680 I'd like to thank you and the people like you for amazing crash compilations
the cbr650r is 40-50 lbs too heavy for what it is...460 wet is too much...when $1K more gets you an rs660
True but the comfort, look, and possibilities are all factors when considering I bike, I looked at the rs660 and personally wasn’t very impressed, but it’s the riders choice on what they choose to buy and I’m very happy with my purchase and the rs660 is a beautiful bike, but all those factors are why I chose this bike 👍🏼
@@brycewilliams5941 Great thing about bikes....is something exists for everyone, what others think really doesn't matter, and the most important is you're on two wheels
So, a bike that can run 0-100mph in 7.5 seconds and do the quarter mile in less than 12 seconds STOCK is a beginner bike, eh? Sure, ok, bub.
The honda got stock 95HP, 85HP is bad it's a downgrade
Lol
@LordHurricaneHD do you not know the difference between BHP/crank horsepower and wheel horsepower??
@@ivecentral now i know it
3rd🤔
2rd
FIRST!
20 pounds of torque haha thats so wack
It was an error, it made 43 ft lbs
@@ravenmoto5948 oh jaja yeah that makes way more sense since its a 650 thats not made for hp but more for midrange torque, although i like the r7 and mto7 engine more i can see this as a good competitor for street riding, its heavier but abit more balanced
Just get a yzf r7 instead of either of these