Well said! Your comment about breathing at 1:50 on the timeline is great. I suggest this to rowers and they think I'm crazy. One person said I was crazy but I was right. Keep up the good work.
One thing you don’t mention is the partial vacuum behind the blade. That allows some latitude in the timing of the release and of the feather. Not a huge amount but enough to make a difference. I think it still matters that the downward movement of the handle precedes the start of the feather.
Agreed my friend. No question that you need to start taking the blade out. We just don't believe that its efficient to have it still square as the bottom of the spoon comes out. Please tell us more about the vacuum you mentioned. Sounds interesting.
Very good technique. Slightly bent wrists at the finish. Slightly bent arms through the middle of the drive, but this is just being pick. Very good technique. Body position extremely good.
Thanks Rod. I must say, one of the most annoying things that I have found in making these vids, is that I really get annoyed when I see myself doing things I know I should not be doing. Everyone should have video of themselves, and if they don't have the knowledge, then have access to a good coach who can help them see what they are doing. I am going to be doing a video on my most disappointing athlete (myself), specifically to highlight this point. Hope you catch it.
... haha... I have just realised that you are most likely talking about Pierre Houin, not me. The guy rows amazingly, but no matter what level you are at there are things that are not perfect, but they become part of your style and if it works for you then keep it.
Nice video - a quick question... I was taught not to 'feather under the water' as this is 'pulling' on the handle whilst trying to turn at the same time (which forces the handle down rather than letting it pop out of the water). How does this fit in with your method?
Hey Richard. What you have been taught is correct. Just be mindful of your blade depths. If you are too deep and start trying to feather too early then yes, you will be feathering under water, and this will be, at best slowing the boat through a large amount of drag, and at worst a crab and a tip. If your blades are where we believe they should be, just below the surface of the water, this should not happen. Please try the exercise and give me feedback. Try hold onto the pressure on the spoon as long as you can, have the blade at the right depth, start the extraction and have the blade coming out, and as you do start rolling the feather into your fingers, and then sit there with the blade dragging (until you are so confident and secure in the position that you can have them off the water). You will find that its possible to have a very clean extraction, with minimal disturbance to the water while keeping the pressure on the spoon longer.
I'm in a coastal single, and think I normally feather on the extraction just as you say, this seems to work well in flat water, but I think it's what is causing me problems when the wind and waves pick up (particularly a tail wind), I find my blade sometimes gets stuck under the water whilst feathered - causing a lot of instability, and pretty hairy. I know it's coastal which I don't suppose is your speciality, but any thoughts on whether to modify the technique with following waves?
Try thinking of the extraction motion as the path of a conveyor belt around a turn. THe first part of the extraction is the tap down . Almost simultaniously you turn the handle by grabbing the bottom edge of the end of the handle with the base of your thumb and push your wrist down and away from your body. This pushes your thumb away and turns the handle with the bottom edge of the blade leaving the water. THis method gives you a little more security than the finger roll does. The finger roll is a pulling motion and what I have described is a pushing motion and the blade pops out of the water and off the water...in flat water. THe problem with C2 blades and Croker blades is the shaft connection on the back of the blade. In flat water not much of a problem but is unsteady rolling water these blades create a lot of drag if feathered under the water. Check out Dreher blades with the elliptical shafts. Amazing!
I competed at Brandenburg this year, at World Masters. I can assure you that those conditions were close to what you are used to. Crazy stuff. I am not too familiar with proper coastal rowing technique so perhaps you can confirm. Is it advantageous to have deeper blades than in fine rowing?
I am going to try and find some Dreher blades to see how this feels. Thanks for sharing. With all the variation on blade design, and spoon shape, I think is vid is called for...
Rolling the extraction out of the vortex is what i've learned intuitively at the beginning. In the meanwhile i've been teched both methods. But i realized that i have trouble with rolling out the blades when the water surface is wavy. In this cases i have very often problems with stucking in the water and catching crabs. When squaring the blade out i got a lot more stability in wavy conditions. That's why I'm currently undecided what is the best way to go. What is your experience in wavy conditions?
I am sorry for the late reply Carsten. I missed your comment somehow. My experience has been that the most common reason for the blade getting stuck with a rolled extraction is blade depth. The blade has to have started exiting the water before you start to roll it, but if it is deep, as a result of being less stable in rough conditions, which is perfectly understandable, then its possible that you are rolling it while still submerged. There will be the need to carry the blades higher in the rough so getting it feathered quicker has always made me feel more stable. I would rather hit a wave with a blade that is already partially or completely feathered.
Nice video - some quick questions for you. I agree absolutely that feathering out of the water on the extraction is the better way to go. However it seems to be the way most people row and a square exit seems to be more for drills. Do you have an example of any top rowers that actually do exit the stroke with square blades. I was looking at some racing and can't seem to find any although the difference may be too subtle to see unless you have a super slomo - would be interesting to compare water times if you could find any.
Thanks Darryl. The traditional way to be taught is still mostly a square extraction so that's the way most people are that I coach think unfortunately. The top rowers seem to come out of the vortex but not all. When you are at Olympic level you can come out square and it's no prob. When you are not, and especially when you are learning, it's much easier and more stable to come out like we believe. With square extraction, unless you nail it perfectly, right to left, you end up destabilizing your platform.
@@dermotbalaam5358 as I said above, if you are at the level of an Olympian, then you can row any way you like, such as with deep blades like Mahe, or three quarter slides like Oli etc. For us mere mortals, especially those looking to gain confidence in their stability, you will firstly find the rolled extraction easier, but secondly, once you have done it for a while, you will find it gives you a tine bit more time in the water.
@@ericshun7693 As someone who is also a bit the short side for a rower myself, I really like most of Damir's style. And yes, in this vid you mention, he extracts pretty much the way we believe works best. Like most of the rowing community I think Aram is mostly spot on. I'm glad we don't agree on everything though, or what new would I have to offer... Thanks for giving my methodology consideration. At the end of the day, some things work for some people and not others.
Wonderful video, thank you! Couple of brainstorm things- it might be helpful to recognise at which stage of experience you can talk about it working well/being officiant (square out for beginners). Other thing- you might want to be just slightly not horizontal (going up till the end of the drive in a brain, staying horizontal in actual performance/video analysis) and dump own weight on the oars to help with extraction (square or not)- in a fine execution of that taping down as an separate action gets close to full disappearance..
In other words- push from foot stretcher to get light on a seat (going up slightly), maintain being light on a seat by work with upper body and arms till the very end of the drive, use energy of "landing" back on a seat to extract blades and drag boat under/behind centre of the weight ( of rower) least possible impacting seat. Closest comparison comes to my head- running through the tightrope. I hope that makes a sense :)
I like to teach newbies that the extraction initially should be thought of and practiced as two separate elements….tap down or lowering arm / forearm followed by feathering of blade through a combination of rolling the scull handle through the knuckle area of fingers and a minimal lowering action of the wrists. Once this has been mastered in slow practice…..the aim should be to develop ability to make the whole 2 stage process into a subtle single and clean / quick movement, minimising any washout. Anything wrong? Great videos.
Hi Peter. Not sure if you row yourself or strictly a coach, but if the former, I urge you to try the exercise I demonstrated at the end of the vid. Just try take the thought of the "tap down" out of the equation and just release the water through the feather (agreed this should be done into the fingers, rather than "motorbike wrists", but for beginners I don't mind what they do as long as they are comfortable and confident. I would rather fix the feather into the fingers later). When starting the exercise, its perfectly fine to just drag the blade so don't worry about lowering the arm just yet. Try it, and tell me if you don't feel like you are firstly keeping the pressure against the water a fraction longer, but secondly much more relaxed about stability, and not having to worry about getting the blade clear before the handle reaches your body... This is especially the case with newbies. They only have to catch one crab to get very anxious at the extraction and that anxiety stay with them and manifests into them popping out of the drive early, to make sure they are clear and don't get caught. As I mentioned the aim is to come out with a clear blade in the end. An experienced rower will of course want to minimise resistance by not dragging the blade, so once confident in just releasing the water you have to start making the drag lighter until the blade is off the water. Hope that clarifies.
One caveat to the above is that we believe in having the blade just below the surface of the water during the drive. If this is the case it will slip out of the vortex during the roll into the feather.
The trajectory of the handle during extraction is a semicircle not square. The moment to get the blade out is simpler and quicker than the feathering motion. In my experience (55 years) people who feather out tend to have dirty finishes and throw up water.
Thanks for the comment. I have honestly had the opposite experience. If you still have pressure on the spoon during the time that you are extracting square, then this causes a wash out. Pressure on a half extracted spoon can't be splash free. To keep the ectraction clean you would need to take pressure off the spoon during that moment. I want to keep pressure on Al long as possible because it lengthens the effective part of the drive. Admittedly only by a fraction, but fractions count. I appreciate your stand point and I was also taught this way but give it a try. If it does not work for you then that's fine. We can't all agree mate.
@@InFin8RowingIntl Thanks for feedback….interesting debate and comment. ‘The older I get the better I was…!!!” in my days of sculling in 1950/60’s. It’s great to see different views on optimal technique etc. Thanks all.
....and the other question, and this is just playing devils advocate is that does it really make that much difference to the drive since the extraction takes place when the blades are well through the work area and are probably pushing very little water away from the boat anyway since they are angled probably close to 45 degrees to the direction of travel.
Finish angle should be 30-40ish deg, but I understand your point. Although the optimal part of the arc has passed by the time you start the extraction, the combination of boat and rower are still pretty much at the max velocity at this point of the stroke so tapping off, or washing out, will affect the speed of your send and the length of your run.
Well said! Your comment about breathing at 1:50 on the timeline is great. I suggest this to rowers and they think I'm crazy. One person said I was crazy but I was right. Keep up the good work.
Much appreciated! This person that was crazy enough to say you were crazy... what did they suggest in terms of breathing?
One thing you don’t mention is the partial vacuum behind the blade. That allows some latitude in the timing of the release and of the feather. Not a huge amount but enough to make a difference. I think it still matters that the downward movement of the handle precedes the start of the feather.
Agreed my friend. No question that you need to start taking the blade out. We just don't believe that its efficient to have it still square as the bottom of the spoon comes out. Please tell us more about the vacuum you mentioned. Sounds interesting.
Very good technique. Slightly bent wrists at the finish. Slightly bent arms through the middle of the drive, but this is just being pick.
Very good technique. Body position extremely good.
Thanks Rod. I must say, one of the most annoying things that I have found in making these vids, is that I really get annoyed when I see myself doing things I know I should not be doing. Everyone should have video of themselves, and if they don't have the knowledge, then have access to a good coach who can help them see what they are doing. I am going to be doing a video on my most disappointing athlete (myself), specifically to highlight this point. Hope you catch it.
... haha... I have just realised that you are most likely talking about Pierre Houin, not me. The guy rows amazingly, but no matter what level you are at there are things that are not perfect, but they become part of your style and if it works for you then keep it.
Another great video!
Very good use of diagrams and video to explain your point. I have found that type of extraction to be preferable as well.
Appreciated Nich. Strange how square extraction is still what being taught.
Nice video - a quick question... I was taught not to 'feather under the water' as this is 'pulling' on the handle whilst trying to turn at the same time (which forces the handle down rather than letting it pop out of the water). How does this fit in with your method?
Hey Richard. What you have been taught is correct. Just be mindful of your blade depths. If you are too deep and start trying to feather too early then yes, you will be feathering under water, and this will be, at best slowing the boat through a large amount of drag, and at worst a crab and a tip. If your blades are where we believe they should be, just below the surface of the water, this should not happen. Please try the exercise and give me feedback. Try hold onto the pressure on the spoon as long as you can, have the blade at the right depth, start the extraction and have the blade coming out, and as you do start rolling the feather into your fingers, and then sit there with the blade dragging (until you are so confident and secure in the position that you can have them off the water). You will find that its possible to have a very clean extraction, with minimal disturbance to the water while keeping the pressure on the spoon longer.
I'm in a coastal single, and think I normally feather on the extraction just as you say, this seems to work well in flat water, but I think it's what is causing me problems when the wind and waves pick up (particularly a tail wind), I find my blade sometimes gets stuck under the water whilst feathered - causing a lot of instability, and pretty hairy. I know it's coastal which I don't suppose is your speciality, but any thoughts on whether to modify the technique with following waves?
Try thinking of the extraction motion as the path of a conveyor belt around a turn. THe first part of the extraction is the tap down . Almost simultaniously you turn the handle by grabbing the bottom edge of the end of the handle with the base of your thumb and push your wrist down and away from your body. This pushes your thumb away and turns the handle with the bottom edge of the blade leaving the water. THis method gives you a little more security than the finger roll does. The finger roll is a pulling motion and what I have described is a pushing motion and the blade pops out of the water and off the water...in flat water. THe problem with C2 blades and Croker blades is the shaft connection on the back of the blade. In flat water not much of a problem but is unsteady rolling water these blades create a lot of drag if feathered under the water. Check out Dreher blades with the elliptical shafts. Amazing!
I competed at Brandenburg this year, at World Masters. I can assure you that those conditions were close to what you are used to. Crazy stuff. I am not too familiar with proper coastal rowing technique so perhaps you can confirm. Is it advantageous to have deeper blades than in fine rowing?
I am going to try and find some Dreher blades to see how this feels. Thanks for sharing. With all the variation on blade design, and spoon shape, I think is vid is called for...
Rolling the extraction out of the vortex is what i've learned intuitively at the beginning. In the meanwhile i've been teched both methods.
But i realized that i have trouble with rolling out the blades when the water surface is wavy. In this cases i have very often problems with stucking in the water and catching crabs. When squaring the blade out i got a lot more stability in wavy conditions. That's why I'm currently undecided what is the best way to go. What is your experience in wavy conditions?
I am sorry for the late reply Carsten. I missed your comment somehow. My experience has been that the most common reason for the blade getting stuck with a rolled extraction is blade depth. The blade has to have started exiting the water before you start to roll it, but if it is deep, as a result of being less stable in rough conditions, which is perfectly understandable, then its possible that you are rolling it while still submerged. There will be the need to carry the blades higher in the rough so getting it feathered quicker has always made me feel more stable. I would rather hit a wave with a blade that is already partially or completely feathered.
Great video, although the music is a bit distracting. No music would be better IMO.
Nice video - some quick questions for you. I agree absolutely that feathering out of the water on the extraction is the better way to go. However it seems to be the way most people row and a square exit seems to be more for drills. Do you have an example of any top rowers that actually do exit the stroke with square blades. I was looking at some racing and can't seem to find any although the difference may be too subtle to see unless you have a super slomo - would be interesting to compare water times if you could find any.
Thanks Darryl. The traditional way to be taught is still mostly a square extraction so that's the way most people are that I coach think unfortunately. The top rowers seem to come out of the vortex but not all. When you are at Olympic level you can come out square and it's no prob. When you are not, and especially when you are learning, it's much easier and more stable to come out like we believe. With square extraction, unless you nail it perfectly, right to left, you end up destabilizing your platform.
Watch just about and world rowing videos you see that most blades exit the water square before they are feathered.
Damir Martin does - see aram's video analysis
@@dermotbalaam5358 as I said above, if you are at the level of an Olympian, then you can row any way you like, such as with deep blades like Mahe, or three quarter slides like Oli etc. For us mere mortals, especially those looking to gain confidence in their stability, you will firstly find the rolled extraction easier, but secondly, once you have done it for a while, you will find it gives you a tine bit more time in the water.
@@ericshun7693 As someone who is also a bit the short side for a rower myself, I really like most of Damir's style. And yes, in this vid you mention, he extracts pretty much the way we believe works best. Like most of the rowing community I think Aram is mostly spot on. I'm glad we don't agree on everything though, or what new would I have to offer... Thanks for giving my methodology consideration. At the end of the day, some things work for some people and not others.
Wonderful video, thank you! Couple of brainstorm things- it might be helpful to recognise at which stage of experience you can talk about it working well/being officiant (square out for beginners). Other thing- you might want to be just slightly not horizontal (going up till the end of the drive in a brain, staying horizontal in actual performance/video analysis) and dump own weight on the oars to help with extraction (square or not)- in a fine execution of that taping down as an separate action gets close to full disappearance..
Thanks for the comment but I am not sure I understand exactly what you are saying so not easy to respond. Please reword for me and I will revert.
In other words- push from foot stretcher to get light on a seat (going up slightly), maintain being light on a seat by work with upper body and arms till the very end of the drive, use energy of "landing" back on a seat to extract blades and drag boat under/behind centre of the weight ( of rower) least possible impacting seat. Closest comparison comes to my head- running through the tightrope. I hope that makes a sense :)
I like to teach newbies that the extraction initially should be thought of and practiced as two separate elements….tap down or lowering arm / forearm followed by feathering of blade through a combination of rolling the scull handle through the knuckle area of fingers and a minimal lowering action of the wrists. Once this has been mastered in slow practice…..the aim should be to develop ability to make the whole 2 stage process into a subtle single and clean / quick movement, minimising any washout. Anything wrong? Great videos.
Hi Peter. Not sure if you row yourself or strictly a coach, but if the former, I urge you to try the exercise I demonstrated at the end of the vid. Just try take the thought of the "tap down" out of the equation and just release the water through the feather (agreed this should be done into the fingers, rather than "motorbike wrists", but for beginners I don't mind what they do as long as they are comfortable and confident. I would rather fix the feather into the fingers later). When starting the exercise, its perfectly fine to just drag the blade so don't worry about lowering the arm just yet. Try it, and tell me if you don't feel like you are firstly keeping the pressure against the water a fraction longer, but secondly much more relaxed about stability, and not having to worry about getting the blade clear before the handle reaches your body... This is especially the case with newbies. They only have to catch one crab to get very anxious at the extraction and that anxiety stay with them and manifests into them popping out of the drive early, to make sure they are clear and don't get caught. As I mentioned the aim is to come out with a clear blade in the end. An experienced rower will of course want to minimise resistance by not dragging the blade, so once confident in just releasing the water you have to start making the drag lighter until the blade is off the water. Hope that clarifies.
One caveat to the above is that we believe in having the blade just below the surface of the water during the drive. If this is the case it will slip out of the vortex during the roll into the feather.
The trajectory of the handle during extraction is a semicircle not square. The moment to get the blade out is simpler and quicker than the feathering motion. In my experience (55 years) people who feather out tend to have dirty finishes and throw up water.
Thanks for the comment. I have honestly had the opposite experience. If you still have pressure on the spoon during the time that you are extracting square, then this causes a wash out. Pressure on a half extracted spoon can't be splash free. To keep the ectraction clean you would need to take pressure off the spoon during that moment. I want to keep pressure on Al long as possible because it lengthens the effective part of the drive. Admittedly only by a fraction, but fractions count. I appreciate your stand point and I was also taught this way but give it a try. If it does not work for you then that's fine. We can't all agree mate.
@@InFin8RowingIntl Thanks for feedback….interesting debate and comment. ‘The older I get the better I was…!!!” in my days of sculling in 1950/60’s. It’s great to see different views on optimal technique etc. Thanks all.
....and the other question, and this is just playing devils advocate is that does it really make that much difference to the drive since the extraction takes place when the blades are well through the work area and are probably pushing very little water away from the boat anyway since they are angled probably close to 45 degrees to the direction of travel.
Finish angle should be 30-40ish deg, but I understand your point. Although the optimal part of the arc has passed by the time you start the extraction, the combination of boat and rower are still pretty much at the max velocity at this point of the stroke so tapping off, or washing out, will affect the speed of your send and the length of your run.