Considering the universe, they did exactly the right thing. The logic of "1 warship is better than 700 civilians" falls down when you remember the battle of the line. 10 minutes may save a few hundred civilians, and in those 10 minutes hundreds of ships will be lost. Those ships could have fled, saving thousands or tens of thousands, but they choose to stand and hold the line, an act that the entire galaxy saw, and watched in both horror and amazement that even when all hope was lost, they held the line.
@@cgi2002 And only would've delayed the inevitable had there not been a positive resolution to that war with the realization that human should be spared.
B5 always told great stories with characters that weren't cardboard cut-outs. I don't think that captain even had a name in the credits, yet we find out a lot about his and his crews character within a few moments of meeting them and them dying. I still consider it one of the best SF series ever.
his name is G'sten. He is G'kar's uncle. Oh wait no. thats the other battle where the narn ships get blown up. Youre right. This captain is just "narn ship captain"
I like how even though their ship is getting tagged by multiple direct hits control panels aren't exploding and the ceiling isn't falling apart like Federation starships do.
lol. Yeah, maybe federation ships need to invest in some support beams. And why would displays explode? We have display technology now. They don't explode. Even if you shoot them. Even if you have them in a car that is itself under attack and exploding, the display in your car won't explode. What is it they need their special displays to do that requires they also be explosive. And why isn't the giant display in front of the captain that the whole command crew can see not also explosive. And w/all the data pads everyone runs around with in star treck, why not control your station through that, from at least like 6 feet away, instead of sitting at your explosive station.
I was always surprised at the amount of 'rubble' lying around after a fight. Lol! Sisko and Janeway always had to step around it. What the hell were Federation ships made of!!???
A small scene of characters we aren't invested in but speaks loudly of the merit of those characters. You see it they face death with a smile because they did their duty they saved women and children. That is how you write characters even those that we aren't seasons invested into.
The first season usually displayed the Narn's at their worst (as imperialistic completely bent on telling everyone that they'd never be beholden to anybody else's rules or regulations and would trod on anyone's fingers whenever it suited them.) But as the series went on, mostly through G'Kar but also here, the more noble and spiritual side of the Narn got revealed.
the narn became duplicitous, and hungry for conquest because of their treatment by the centauri in the initial occupation. They copied the centauri's philosophy for dealing with other races because they believed that was the only way for them to survive. It took them getting crushed again in order for them to rediscover who they were as a people.
Ironically the Centauri were what they were for the exact same reason - they’d been attacked and enslaved by two races in quick succession, the Xon on their homeworld and the Shoggren as invaders. The Centauri are simply Season 1 Narn plus a few hundred years and nothing to curb them.
@@ryanarment5393 I'm honestly not too sure the Narn as a whole regained their decency until well after season 5, given how swift they were to bomb an undefended civilian population.
The fact that the Narn were a conquered people who came close to becoming conquerers themselves is a pretty realistic trait. Many of the Germanic tribes that successfully warred against Rome were themselves running from Hun incursions from the East.
@@InfernosReaper The teachings of G'kar laid the foundations for the Narn reformation, but he they had still only penetrated the tiniest fraction of Narn society at the point you mention.
You haven;t really watched that much of a Star Trek then. You've talking about race with such overdeveloped sense of ethics, LYING made them uncomfortable.
No it is not the duty of the military is to maintain combat effectiveness and win as a former Naval Officer my opinion is from a strategic sense this move was dumb and I certainly wouldn't have done it although I can understand the emotional state that clouded the decision making of the captain allowing him to make such a terrible strategic decision
Even in the one episode where they won versus the Centauri (Battlecruiser near Babylon 5), they still died when their hyperdrive exploded during a jump :P Other than the first episode of course, where the Centauri were the helpless victims instead.
It was a great scene showing the Narns at the most noble despite seeing the worst of them in the previous season. Also proves a point of Kosh in the following season about being noble and greater. A noble sacrifice by the Narn Warship.
I love scenes like this in science fiction. Babylon 5 was excellent at driving home the fact that in spite of cultural differences, every race had its share of genuine heroes.
When I first saw this scene, my jaw dropped! It occurred to me what military service could ultimately boil down to - sacrificing yourself to save civilians.
@@jaysnider2203, I'm going to say that you've never served in the armed services. Going into harm's way to defend a civilian population would certainly be one of many ways military units or personnel take their oath and responsibilities. Examples of such actions have been documented throughout the centuries.
@@ELCADAROSA well guess those 20+ years overseas were all in my head. do have brain damage now with skull spit open and brain swelling pushing threw so who knows. but thanks 4 ur opinion. thats whats great about this world we r all different otjerwise it sure would b boring
@@ELCADAROSA and p.s. i seen units help in the killing of innocents knowing full well what was happening. but hey like anything else it feeds their families etc so who will make waves
@The ugly one Now imagine this: If Sheridan had waited a little longer with the civil war thing.. Warlock-destroyer would have had semi organic hull armor like those advanced Omegas.
What impresses me about this clip is not the heroism or the tactics or the sacrifice. It's that the Narn ship did all that while not firing back; not even one shot on screen that I know of. That alone in of itself is incredible.
Its interesting to note the lack of dramatics in the scene, no hesitation, regrets or looks to one another. The narn captain knows what must be done and does it as easily as id clean the dishes.
B5 is pretty much the only scifi show I have ever seen which has such a good representation of damage when being fired upon. Sure, the CGI doesn't look as great as it did back then but I just really like seeing that shots hitting ships actually damage them.
One thing this scene demonstrates is the acknowledgement of space as a 3 dimensional medium, see how the Cruiser turns to present its widest aspect to shield the transport, because that's the most effective way to do so in an environment where down is relative.
It's always dependent on the situation. 'The people whining that the military is there to protect the civilians. period' are the coddled masses with inflated opinions that have never had to make those kinds of calls. Sure, losing a warship to protect 700 civilians sounds well and good and all, but since this was a war of extinction, how many more civilians might have been protected in the long run had this cruiser survived? In addition what is there now to keep the Centauri from chasing the civilians and shooting it down? Now you've lost the warship AND the civilians.
No it wouldn't have, That only applies if they actually had fought an extended engagement. Firing on a single unarmed civilian ship shouldn't have taken more than a shot or two. Also there's nothing keeping them from just following the ship and blasting it once it emerged from hyperspace. All I meant in my post is that the whole question is highly dependent on the circumstances. That's all.
Nope, fighting in Hyperspace in B5 is a disaster waiting to happen for all that participate and has far reaching consequences. B5's hyperspace has currents, eddies, and storms thanks to things like gravity, stars, blackholes, and First One Fuckery. If major explosions (like, say, a reactor detonation) happen in hyperspace, it'll be the equivalent of dropping a nuclear depth charge in a lake and get EVERYONE on your ass because you've just disrupted the Jumpgate Network.
Morally speaking? Yes, absolutely! But not if you look at the larger picture! The Narn are losing this war and preserving one more warship might help them either hang on longer or even tip the balance (if done often enough! The Narn are noble, but also kind of stupid - as seen for example when they fight hand to hand when Babylon 5 is boarded by Clark's Forces! They could have easily used their weapons to create a kill-zone of interlocking firing arcs - but no, the Narn charged into CQB-Range!)...or at least it would be another beacon of hope (like that other Narn-Cruiser, the one that Sheridan saved from the Centauri!)
Watching B5 again, which I like to do every few years. This and Space - Above and Beyond were shows that had such potential. B5 was always faced with a tight budget and threat of cancellation. But all that considered they still made a great show (well except for seasons 4 & 5). Instead of remaking this show, I would like to see a time machine allow for the technology and money of today to be sent back to 1994 so that the show could have the production values it truly deserved.
This makes me wonder if Webe's Honor Harrinton series use this for insperation in "Short Victorious War". A convoy of several transports guarded by a Destroyer is jumped by 4 Cruisers.
Honor would have won that battle as either the Narn or Centauri with just a poorly manned shuttle armed with just a couple of malfunctioned missiles. Heck, she would have wiped the floor with both of the fleets and still have time to complain about it to Nimitz over a round of celery.
Babylon 5 .....Une des meilleures séries de SF jamais réalisée. Il a fallu qu'elle ne paraisse en France que sur C+ qui en avait l'exclusivité!. J'avais toute la série en VHS. Merci au Tube d'en faire connaître des extraits et encore bravo aux frères Straczynski pour leur réalisation.
Many people talk about helping and defending the innocent and defenceless, but very few walk the walk. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" A few hundred solders die and 700 women and children live. A solder of honour could not turn his back on his people like that especially when the children of your own people were at stake.
I'm not sure if we were supposed to accept either the Centauri or the Narn as totally pure-at-heart. Both sides had heroes and villains, and in particular their two ambassadors to B5 played either role at various times in the show, all in the name of furthering the goals of their respective nations.
The Narns, an entire race of Red-Shirts. Every time they showed a Narn "warship" it was crippled and/or completely ineffectual, and usually ended up exploding.
The Narn cruisers are among my favorite Babylon 5 ships; a bit archaic maybe, but majestic. One thing that puzzles me though; a ship that large should be able to hold much more armament, especially support cannons and secondary batteries, kind of like the way Imperial Star Destroyers were loaded up. Considering its slow maneuverability compared to the Centauri cruisers, I think a vast array of armaments that could fire in any direction would increase the cruiser's chances of victory, or at least survival. That being said, those massive forward fixed guns are epic!
@steve gale That was the problem with a lot of the races in B5. They had the tech base to build better ships but lacked the resources to follow through.
JMS said himself long ago that the reason you don't see the majority of the ship's weapons being used is because of a lack of budget. The ships in the B5 universe have multiple levels of defensive fire and offensive capability in line with modern naval assets. Take the Omega class destroyer for example. It had two "gigaton mine" launchers in the front you never saw used but you can see where they are supposed to be launched from. Ever notice the red missile hatches on the model in some scenes? That's 72 missile launchers in total according to various canon sources. They also had 6 laser batteries and 4 plasma pulse cannons for antiship use. Another 12 smaller pulse cannons for anti-fighter/light warship duty. I'm pretty sure it's considered one of the most powerful ships built by the younger races.
+Ernesto Tani What's interesting is that the show has shown the Narns being cowardly and deceitful many times in the series, while some Centauri have been portrayed as noble and morally-upright. As with most things in this series, its very grey.
Difficult choice. On one hand you have a transport full of civilians. On the other, by not sacrificing the ship, the Narns may have been able to save more lives later on by defending another colony.
But the thing is that, and this is something that even Delenn brought up, the Narns were placing military targets (bases, outposts, etc.) at the heart of civilian populations in order to use them as "human shields". So the Narns weren't exactly all that innocent when it came to civilian casualties being inflicted on their side. It's the same with modern warfare here on Earth sometimes.
Oh, DUUUUUUDE! Don't get me started on Omegas. Gotta love that episode where the White Star Fleet fought those Advanced Omegas with reverse engineered Shadow hull armor!
Yeah, you'd have thought it'd be a bit more one-sided, since those vessels still had the rotating sections and the overall tech level of the White Stars were a bit better, because Vorlon tech matched Shadow tech, but Minbari tech was better than Earth tech.
@@InfernosReaper The equalizer was FIREPOWER. The Shadow Omegas had Drahk beam weapons of sufficient power to one shot kill White Stars. If not for the extreme speed and agility of the White Stars coupled to Ivanova’s tactical skill (plus a blunder by the Destroyer fleet commander who stupidly tried to to surround the White Stars), the Shadow Omegas would have prevailed.
Narn ships had an altogether Earthy used feel of being cobbled together. Meanwhile the Centauri ships displayed Imperial splendour. It fits the story of the Narn and the Centauri aesthetically.
They';re pretty damn close to looking like Death gliders. Similar configuration, same wingspan. the only differences are the cockpit, the color, the weapons, etc.
Even though I'm a Trekkie through and through I still say this is far superior to DS9!!! Amazing arcs and characters. Show is so underrated that its disappointing that it doesn't get the recognition it deserves.
Yes, it is! Epic story arc planned from the beginning, brilliant characters, good humor. In fact Babylon 5 was sort of an inspiration for DS9. Alas it's CGI didn't age very well.
Do so. Every one of the characters and every one of the races has a great story line with whicht DS9, though it is very good itself, can't really compete, imo. I do especially like Londo Mollari. Unfortunately the fifth season is not as good, because they told JMS after the third season that he would only have another one, which is why he tightened the remaining story of to seasons to fit in one, and after the fourth seasons they told him to make the fifth anyway, for which he then did have no real story arc anymore. :(
The Centauri are ruthless but not utterly so. They know that shooting down civilian transports makes them look bad, which makes diplomacy difficult and drives allies away.
1:14 And now we sit motionless, just as we don't move our ship out of the danger zone and just let ourselves be shot down without any resistance. - Great idea!
I'd say that the Centauri were probably a hundred, maybe a hundred and fifty, years ahead of the Narns in terms of tech. The main hurdle to the Centauri being able to quickly conquer the Narn wasn't technology but rather public opinion. The Centauri fleet wasn't a combined military force but rather the military forces of individual Houses brought together in common cause. The assistance provided by Morden and the Shadows only helped to spur reluctant Houses into the war.
The Narns core assets are lost to the Shadow fleet. While Centauri were stagnant and becoming decadent the Narns had been building up ceaselessly and their ships represent their version of a culminating design. The Narns would have defeated the Centauri by will and weapons. Londo himself is disgusted by Centauri decadence. The Narns draw first blood in the story and the Centauri adopt an appeasement attitude. This is why Londo was an ideal target for Morden.
The Narn cruiser was too slow and sluggish to do that. Those Centauri Vorchan cruisers were fast and agile and could run rings around the Narn cruiser. Unless the Centauri bridge crew was passed out drunk, I don’t see that tactic working here.
The Centauri's Primus Battle Cruiser,and Vorchan Attack Cruiser has solid armor hulls which is difficult to penetrate.Not to mention they have a lot of ion cannons,missiles,laser arrays,and mass drivers. Even with the Gquan Heavy Cruisers being equally matched to the Centauri warships,the Narn's lack artifical gravity which would give them an advantage to at least drive the centauri away from narn territories.
Pretty much what I meant. Sometimes you have to let people die to win the war. When Alan Turing's proto-computer cracked enigma 2.0, the Brits knew they could only act the intelligence sparingly, lest the Nazis realize that their intel had been breached again. They had to let many innocent people die to win the war.
I certainly wouldn't sacrifice the ship as a former Naval Officer I am fully aware of the value of a combatant force in a combat situation sad but true it would be more prudent for the Narns to withdraw their ship to fight another day let alone the valuable skills and the years of training that the crew would have not only this but the G'Quan class heavy cruiser had a crew of 200 and 200 combat trained and experienced crew members is far more useful for the survival of the race than a civilian craft as not only that all of the combat troops would be of breeding age unlike the civilians so even on a keeping a large number of the population alive to rebuild its a dumb idea far better withdraw to neutral space and work with the government in exile if necessary create one and use your limited combat force sparingly in hit an run raids on the opposition fight a Guerilla war
Does anyone else get the impression that this whole bit was Narn propaganda? Aside from the super-selfless dialogue from the bridge crew and the Centauri's obligatory attempt at shooting down a transport full of women and children (and with something like five or six of the villains' ships all failing to hit the one spunky little ship), we also have the ship's captain constantly eyeballing the camera. My guess is that they were real military personnel made to perform the bit for a camera crew, and the captain wasn't used to having a camera around, so he kept looking at it instead of pretending it wasn't there.
The Narn can be accused of many things... but no matter what happens, they never betray their sense of honor. It matters to them more than their lives.
One thing that could have made this better is if just before the ship exploded the captain said to his bridge crew "It has been an honor serving with you all".
never surrender no matter the reason We stand on the bridge and none may cross we live for the one we die for the one they may not have been rangers but they fought like rangers and deserved to be remembered as rangers
yup. They had strong hulls that can absorb a lot of damage and plenty of firepower. But not fast or maneuverable as compared to the White Stars, which is why they got their asses kicked.
In the scheme of things it was a terrible decision by the captain. The Narns would have been much better served by the survival of that cruiser than by the rescue of a handful of civilians.
People complain about the way the captain looked into the camera at the end. I think it was deliberate. He is saying "How would YOU have handled this?"
@girlgarde Don't forget, in Season 1 it was the Narns who were the aggressors. That was until the Massacre at Quadrant 37 by the shadows at Londo Mollari's request. Then after that, the Narn suffered the Wrath of the Shadows at Quadrant 14 and the Battle of Gorash 7, both orchestrated by Londo Mollari again. Thus causing the Narn to lose the war only after 6 months and become an occupied territory for a 2nd time by the Centauri.
Fair point.......I guess it all boils down to what would u do in that situation......it can be argued for and against the captains actions......though I would say....the captain would not have known what the outcome of the war would have been at that point......so in his defence....he sacrificed himself and his soldiers.....to allow those civilians to live for the future.....even if that future eventually turned out to be beneath the heal of the Centauri!!!
The use of early Amiga CGI so hurt the look of this series. By contrast, Deep Space 9 still looks pretty damn good in the effects department most of the time, mostly thanks to all the model use. It's not their fault of course and really, the jank was obvious even when it was new.
If one side has artificial gravity and the other side does not, that is a massive, massive technological gulf. The implications for physics behind the ability to create gravity artificially would be a fantastic leap in related and unrelated capabilities. The effect on acceleration and maneuverability alone would be an almost insurmountable advantage.
Not how it's framed. The scene itself is clearly showing us the audience "what happened." G'kar was showing them a report on the incident. Probably flight recorder data. It's meant to be taken at face value. The Centauri were wiping the Narns out.
Congratulations to that Narn captain. He passed the Kobayashi Maru test.
I love the look on the Narn captain's face right at the end. "...we have done our duty."
with a bit of "oh damn, this is the end!" mixed in
I hear a tiny note of pride in "Transport is away!"
Bah! Narn propaganda. Have you forgotten what they did at Ragesh 3?!
;)
Considering the universe, they did exactly the right thing. The logic of "1 warship is better than 700 civilians" falls down when you remember the battle of the line. 10 minutes may save a few hundred civilians, and in those 10 minutes hundreds of ships will be lost. Those ships could have fled, saving thousands or tens of thousands, but they choose to stand and hold the line, an act that the entire galaxy saw, and watched in both horror and amazement that even when all hope was lost, they held the line.
@@cgi2002 And only would've delayed the inevitable had there not been a positive resolution to that war with the realization that human should be spared.
B5 always told great stories with characters that weren't cardboard cut-outs. I don't think that captain even had a name in the credits, yet we find out a lot about his and his crews character within a few moments of meeting them and them dying.
I still consider it one of the best SF series ever.
his name is G'sten. He is G'kar's uncle. Oh wait no. thats the other battle where the narn ships get blown up. Youre right. This captain is just "narn ship captain"
I like how even though their ship is getting tagged by multiple direct hits control panels aren't exploding and the ceiling isn't falling apart like Federation starships do.
lol. Yeah, maybe federation ships need to invest in some support beams. And why would displays explode? We have display technology now. They don't explode. Even if you shoot them. Even if you have them in a car that is itself under attack and exploding, the display in your car won't explode. What is it they need their special displays to do that requires they also be explosive. And why isn't the giant display in front of the captain that the whole command crew can see not also explosive. And w/all the data pads everyone runs around with in star treck, why not control your station through that, from at least like 6 feet away, instead of sitting at your explosive station.
@@SmegInThePants Theatrics.
@Harvey Dustin thats what surgeprotectors and fuses are for. 8)
No gravity in those ships
I was always surprised at the amount of 'rubble' lying around after a fight. Lol! Sisko and Janeway always had to step around it. What the hell were Federation ships made of!!???
A small scene of characters we aren't invested in but speaks loudly of the merit of those characters. You see it they face death with a smile because they did their duty they saved women and children. That is how you write characters even those that we aren't seasons invested into.
This is something B5 excelled at. Putting a face on war and adding humanity to every battle.
The first season usually displayed the Narn's at their worst (as imperialistic completely bent on telling everyone that they'd never be beholden to anybody else's rules or regulations and would trod on anyone's fingers whenever it suited them.) But as the series went on, mostly through G'Kar but also here, the more noble and spiritual side of the Narn got revealed.
the narn became duplicitous, and hungry for conquest because of their treatment by the centauri in the initial occupation. They copied the centauri's philosophy for dealing with other races because they believed that was the only way for them to survive. It took them getting crushed again in order for them to rediscover who they were as a people.
Ironically the Centauri were what they were for the exact same reason - they’d been attacked and enslaved by two races in quick succession, the Xon on their homeworld and the Shoggren as invaders. The Centauri are simply Season 1 Narn plus a few hundred years and nothing to curb them.
@@ryanarment5393 I'm honestly not too sure the Narn as a whole regained their decency until well after season 5, given how swift they were to bomb an undefended civilian population.
The fact that the Narn were a conquered people who came close to becoming conquerers themselves is a pretty realistic trait. Many of the Germanic tribes that successfully warred against Rome were themselves running from Hun incursions from the East.
@@InfernosReaper The teachings of G'kar laid the foundations for the Narn reformation, but he they had still only penetrated the tiniest fraction of Narn society at the point you mention.
« She's safe ... » - Female Narn Officer
Captain nods his head in silence ... (our job is done!)
The duty of military is to save civilians. They performed it well.
*****
Log with your real account, Moulari. ))
Nope "The duty of military is to win".
GamePlayShare, if they were Vulcan think would have saved the more valuable warship
You haven;t really watched that much of a Star Trek then. You've talking about race with such overdeveloped sense of ethics, LYING made them uncomfortable.
No it is not the duty of the military is to maintain combat effectiveness and win as a former Naval Officer my opinion is from a strategic sense this move was dumb and I certainly wouldn't have done it although I can understand the emotional state that clouded the decision making of the captain allowing him to make such a terrible strategic decision
I love the narn warships best design of the whole series.
+dragdragon23 I did too but damn if they didn't always get their asses handed to them in nearly every encounter.
Rich Nelson Yeah! But you have to ask how much was the doing of the shadows helping the centary?
You Mean the Centauri?
zaftMauritius yeah! them too!
Even in the one episode where they won versus the Centauri (Battlecruiser near Babylon 5), they still died when their hyperdrive exploded during a jump :P
Other than the first episode of course, where the Centauri were the helpless victims instead.
It was a great scene showing the Narns at the most noble despite seeing the worst of them in the previous season. Also proves a point of Kosh in the following season about being noble and greater. A noble sacrifice by the Narn Warship.
I love scenes like this in science fiction. Babylon 5 was excellent at driving home the fact that in spite of cultural differences, every race had its share of genuine heroes.
When I first saw this scene, my jaw dropped! It occurred to me what military service could ultimately boil down to - sacrificing yourself to save civilians.
not in the real world. many things r not like u c on tv or what ur taught to believe
Sometimes, it's sacrificing civilians to save soldiers!
@@jaysnider2203, I'm going to say that you've never served in the armed services. Going into harm's way to defend a civilian population would certainly be one of many ways military units or personnel take their oath and responsibilities. Examples of such actions have been documented throughout the centuries.
@@ELCADAROSA well guess those 20+ years overseas were all in my head. do have brain damage now with skull spit open and brain swelling pushing threw so who knows. but thanks 4 ur opinion. thats whats great about this world we r all different otjerwise it sure would b boring
@@ELCADAROSA and p.s. i seen units help in the killing of innocents knowing full well what was happening. but hey like anything else it feeds their families etc so who will make waves
I always thought the Narn had the best looking cruisers. Also their fighters were pretty awesome, too
Best aestethics for me too.
@The ugly one
Now imagine this: If Sheridan had waited a little longer with the civil war thing.. Warlock-destroyer would have had semi organic hull armor like those advanced Omegas.
Humans, easily.
They look so rough and practical. No unnecessary polished or sleek design. Just pragmatic and functional.
The look on the Narn captains face at the end, he's portraying, our duty is complete
What impresses me about this clip is not the heroism or the tactics or the sacrifice. It's that the Narn ship did all that while not firing back; not even one shot on screen that I know of. That alone in of itself is incredible.
Escort missions suck.
LOL. actually made me laugh
@@Snorri81 Its funny because its true!
*has colony wars flashbacks*
Its interesting to note the lack of dramatics in the scene, no hesitation, regrets or looks to one another. The narn captain knows what must be done and does it as easily as id clean the dishes.
This by far one of my favourite battles in Babylon 5, short but brutal.
B5 is pretty much the only scifi show I have ever seen which has such a good representation of damage when being fired upon. Sure, the CGI doesn't look as great as it did back then but I just really like seeing that shots hitting ships actually damage them.
One thing this scene demonstrates is the acknowledgement of space as a 3 dimensional medium, see how the Cruiser turns to present its widest aspect to shield the transport, because that's the most effective way to do so in an environment where down is relative.
*grips chair, stares at camera mildly confused*
And you, in the audience, what do you think?
It is propaganda intended to get the other races to join in the fight against the Centauri.
LOL yeah "Ok they're safe." Captain: "I got nothin" Ship is destroyed
Why didn't they flip over and use the top side to block the Centauri cruisers, at least there were guns on the topside...
are you not amused?
"Everybody in this room knows that the truth is the first casualty of war".
The oath every soldier makes to their civilian population: you'll sleep safely tonight.
it# may go against the grain, but protecting civilians is the right thing to do.
It's always dependent on the situation. 'The people whining that the military is there to protect the civilians. period' are the coddled masses with inflated opinions that have never had to make those kinds of calls. Sure, losing a warship to protect 700 civilians sounds well and good and all, but since this was a war of extinction, how many more civilians might have been protected in the long run had this cruiser survived? In addition what is there now to keep the Centauri from chasing the civilians and shooting it down? Now you've lost the warship AND the civilians.
No it wouldn't have, That only applies if they actually had fought an extended engagement. Firing on a single unarmed civilian ship shouldn't have taken more than a shot or two. Also there's nothing keeping them from just following the ship and blasting it once it emerged from hyperspace. All I meant in my post is that the whole question is highly dependent on the circumstances. That's all.
Nope, fighting in Hyperspace in B5 is a disaster waiting to happen for all that participate and has far reaching consequences. B5's hyperspace has currents, eddies, and storms thanks to things like gravity, stars, blackholes, and First One Fuckery.
If major explosions (like, say, a reactor detonation) happen in hyperspace, it'll be the equivalent of dropping a nuclear depth charge in a lake and get EVERYONE on your ass because you've just disrupted the Jumpgate Network.
Morally speaking? Yes, absolutely! But not if you look at the larger picture! The Narn are losing this war and preserving one more warship might help them either hang on longer or even tip the balance (if done often enough! The Narn are noble, but also kind of stupid - as seen for example when they fight hand to hand when Babylon 5 is boarded by Clark's Forces! They could have easily used their weapons to create a kill-zone of interlocking firing arcs - but no, the Narn charged into CQB-Range!)...or at least it would be another beacon of hope (like that other Narn-Cruiser, the one that Sheridan saved from the Centauri!)
they would have just gotten destroyed by the Shadows
a moment of silence for those brave narns
Watching B5 again, which I like to do every few years. This and Space - Above and Beyond were shows that had such potential. B5 was always faced with a tight budget and threat of cancellation. But all that considered they still made a great show (well except for seasons 4 & 5). Instead of remaking this show, I would like to see a time machine allow for the technology and money of today to be sent back to 1994 so that the show could have the production values it truly deserved.
Kosh Narank: They are a dying people we should let them pass.
Jeffrey Sinclair: Who? The Narn or the Centauri?
Kosk Narank: Yes
They knew they had the impossible choice. No matter what someone is not going home.
Narns just never catch a break. Out of this whole fight I saw only a single Centauri casualty at 0:40
This makes me wonder if Webe's Honor Harrinton series use this for insperation in "Short Victorious War". A convoy of several transports guarded by a Destroyer is jumped by 4 Cruisers.
Honor would have won that battle as either the Narn or Centauri with just a poorly manned shuttle armed with just a couple of malfunctioned missiles. Heck, she would have wiped the floor with both of the fleets and still have time to complain about it to Nimitz over a round of celery.
Babylon 5 .....Une des meilleures séries de SF jamais réalisée. Il a fallu qu'elle ne paraisse en France que sur C+ qui en
avait l'exclusivité!. J'avais toute la série en VHS. Merci au Tube d'en faire connaître des extraits et encore bravo aux frères Straczynski pour leur réalisation.
I think this was my favorite scene from the whole series.
Many people talk about helping and defending the innocent and defenceless, but very few walk the walk. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" A few hundred solders die and 700 women and children live. A solder of honour could not turn his back on his people like that especially when the children of your own people were at stake.
It was always my personal favorite. The Omega Destroyers were a close second though.
I'm not sure if we were supposed to accept either the Centauri or the Narn as totally pure-at-heart. Both sides had heroes and villains, and in particular their two ambassadors to B5 played either role at various times in the show, all in the name of furthering the goals of their respective nations.
I like the that ships in B5 didn’t have shields which made the battles more intense.
The Narns, an entire race of Red-Shirts. Every time they showed a Narn "warship" it was crippled and/or completely ineffectual, and usually ended up exploding.
The Narn cruisers are among my favorite Babylon 5 ships; a bit archaic maybe, but majestic. One thing that puzzles me though; a ship that large should be able to hold much more armament, especially support cannons and secondary batteries, kind of like the way Imperial Star Destroyers were loaded up. Considering its slow maneuverability compared to the Centauri cruisers, I think a vast array of armaments that could fire in any direction would increase the cruiser's chances of victory, or at least survival. That being said, those massive forward fixed guns are epic!
@steve gale That was the problem with a lot of the races in B5. They had the tech base to build better ships but lacked the resources to follow through.
Narn tech was way behind Centauri tech in a lot of areas. Because of this Narn ships probably couldn't power as many batteries of weapons.
@@pitmatix1457 That's true; they didn't even have artificial gravity at this time.
JMS said himself long ago that the reason you don't see the majority of the ship's weapons being used is because of a lack of budget. The ships in the B5 universe have multiple levels of defensive fire and offensive capability in line with modern naval assets.
Take the Omega class destroyer for example. It had two "gigaton mine" launchers in the front you never saw used but you can see where they are supposed to be launched from. Ever notice the red missile hatches on the model in some scenes? That's 72 missile launchers in total according to various canon sources. They also had 6 laser batteries and 4 plasma pulse cannons for antiship use. Another 12 smaller pulse cannons for anti-fighter/light warship duty. I'm pretty sure it's considered one of the most powerful ships built by the younger races.
The make up and costume is so good. So alien. But then they talk like Texans.
Noble Narn warriors! Centauri are cowards!
We don't know if this record was editted by Narn or not, since we clearly see that this is the footage G'kar show to Sheridan to ask for help.
+Ernesto Tani What's interesting is that the show has shown the Narns being cowardly and deceitful many times in the series, while some Centauri have been portrayed as noble and morally-upright. As with most things in this series, its very grey.
+Ernesto Tani yeah the narn crew died with honor they will be rememberd as true warriors
+Ares99999 There are factions within each government. Refa and his allies in the Centaurum were assholes. Pretty sure the Narn had their own assholes.
yeah the crew of the Narn ship died with Honor they ae all heros in my book
Difficult choice. On one hand you have a transport full of civilians. On the other, by not sacrificing the ship, the Narns may have been able to save more lives later on by defending another colony.
Scotty... I need warp speed now!
But the thing is that, and this is something that even Delenn brought up, the Narns were placing military targets (bases, outposts, etc.) at the heart of civilian populations in order to use them as "human shields". So the Narns weren't exactly all that innocent when it came to civilian casualties being inflicted on their side. It's the same with modern warfare here on Earth sometimes.
ever notice how the Goa'uld fighters from Stargate look almost exactly like the Centari fighters from this show
Crescents vs winged scarabs.
and eventually the Cylon of the Battlestar Galactica took on the same design.
@Cliven Longsight
Not too many people take the TIE fighter shape though. 😁
@@zorkmid1083 Because they would get sued the crap out of them by Disney nowadays
Death Gliders
Oh, DUUUUUUDE! Don't get me started on Omegas. Gotta love that episode where the White Star Fleet fought those Advanced Omegas with reverse engineered Shadow hull armor!
Yeah, you'd have thought it'd be a bit more one-sided, since those vessels still had the rotating sections and the overall tech level of the White Stars were a bit better, because Vorlon tech matched Shadow tech, but Minbari tech was better than Earth tech.
@@InfernosReaper The equalizer was FIREPOWER. The Shadow Omegas had Drahk beam weapons of sufficient power to one shot kill White Stars. If not for the extreme speed and agility of the White Stars coupled to Ivanova’s tactical skill (plus a blunder by the Destroyer fleet commander who stupidly tried to to surround the White Stars), the Shadow Omegas would have prevailed.
Died as Heros. Good Job.
They died with honor protecting that transport!
Narn cruisers, like Cylon base ships excel only in one area, blowing up.
How dare these TV writers manipulate my emotions in this way!
You have to love the Narn
I always preferred the look of Narn ships to Londos bunch, which reminded me of Romulan vessels.
Narn ships had an altogether Earthy used feel of being cobbled together. Meanwhile the Centauri ships displayed Imperial splendour. It fits the story of the Narn and the Centauri aesthetically.
They';re pretty damn close to looking like Death gliders. Similar configuration, same wingspan. the only differences are the cockpit, the color, the weapons, etc.
The Narn captain
👍👍👍👍
"Narn warship destroyed ensuring transport filled with munitions escapes to destroy Centauri orphanage"
centauri propaganda I see.
@@rasheedqe It's CNN. (Centauri News Network).
@@KneelB4Bacon babylon 5 sure is dirty narn propaganda
Yes yes. That is exactly what happened.
Even though I'm a Trekkie through and through I still say this is far superior to DS9!!! Amazing arcs and characters. Show is so underrated that its disappointing that it doesn't get the recognition it deserves.
dezstepz 24 hi i watched all star trek shows and cant get enough of deep space nine, but i dont know if i should watch b5. Is it good?
Yes, it is! Epic story arc planned from the beginning, brilliant characters, good humor. In fact Babylon 5 was sort of an inspiration for DS9.
Alas it's CGI didn't age very well.
Rainer Blödsinn watching ep1 rn and wow the cgi is bad. But i will continue watching it
Do so. Every one of the characters and every one of the races has a great story line with whicht DS9, though it is very good itself, can't really compete, imo. I do especially like Londo Mollari.
Unfortunately the fifth season is not as good, because they told JMS after the third season that he would only have another one, which is why he tightened the remaining story of to seasons to fit in one, and after the fourth seasons they told him to make the fifth anyway, for which he then did have no real story arc anymore. :(
DS9 was just shite and is a contender for one of those shows that 'jumped the shark'.
Long live the brave Narn!!
got to give the Nauru credit they sacrifice themselves when most would not have.
The Centauri are ruthless but not utterly so. They know that shooting down civilian transports makes them look bad, which makes diplomacy difficult and drives allies away.
They died in glory.
The look at the camera😂😂😂
The Narns were brave sacrificing themselves
I would have at least been shooting at the centauri to take a couple of them with me
This is the most amazing ship battle I have ever seen
Those narn ships seem very fragile
1:14 And now we sit motionless, just as we don't move our ship out of the danger zone and just let ourselves be shot down without any resistance. - Great idea!
Narns are the most bave and noble race of Babylon Five series.
I'd say that the Centauri were probably a hundred, maybe a hundred and fifty, years ahead of the Narns in terms of tech. The main hurdle to the Centauri being able to quickly conquer the Narn wasn't technology but rather public opinion. The Centauri fleet wasn't a combined military force but rather the military forces of individual Houses brought together in common cause. The assistance provided by Morden and the Shadows only helped to spur reluctant Houses into the war.
This show was just ahead of its time.
After this whole thing was over the Centauri were lucky not to lose their planet to the Vorlons.
They really made a great work creating a villain we loved to hate.
That is the sacrifice we make.
The Centauri had a distinct tech advantage over the Narn.
They also had a distinct morality advantage albeit due to the Centauri being lacking in that area.
We Centauri are much more advanced than those primitive Narn.
The Narns core assets are lost to the Shadow fleet. While Centauri were stagnant and becoming decadent the Narns had been building up ceaselessly and their ships represent their version of a culminating design. The Narns would have defeated the Centauri by will and weapons. Londo himself is disgusted by Centauri decadence. The Narns draw first blood in the story and the Centauri adopt an appeasement attitude. This is why Londo was an ideal target for Morden.
@@emperorlondomollari5511 More sophisticated.
They could at least ram a centauri cruiser. Take one of them with them.
The Narn cruiser was too slow and sluggish to do that. Those Centauri Vorchan cruisers were fast and agile and could run rings around the Narn cruiser. Unless the Centauri bridge crew was passed out drunk, I don’t see that tactic working here.
Gives me the chills every time i see this.
And to the brothers (and these days sisters) who stand at our sides.
The Centauri's Primus Battle Cruiser,and Vorchan Attack Cruiser has solid armor hulls which is difficult to penetrate.Not to mention they have a lot of ion cannons,missiles,laser arrays,and mass drivers. Even with the Gquan Heavy Cruisers being equally matched to the Centauri warships,the Narn's lack artifical gravity which would give them an advantage to at least drive the centauri away from narn territories.
That was quite commendable the put there ship between the Centauri Warships and the civilian ship to save there lives.
Very noble. Strategic mistake, but noble.
The1980Philip on a Centauri part jeopardize civilians to force Narn expose themself to heavy damage was tactical brilliance.
Pretty much what I meant.
Sometimes you have to let people die to win the war. When Alan Turing's proto-computer cracked enigma 2.0, the Brits knew they could only act the intelligence sparingly, lest the Nazis realize that their intel had been breached again. They had to let many innocent people die to win the war.
700 women and children mean a lot when your whole species is struggling to survive.
aѕajj which is why you arn't captain material.
I certainly wouldn't sacrifice the ship as a former Naval Officer I am fully aware of the value of a combatant force in a combat situation sad but true it would be more prudent for the Narns to withdraw their ship to fight another day let alone the valuable skills and the years of training that the crew would have not only this but the G'Quan class heavy cruiser had a crew of 200 and 200 combat trained and experienced crew members is far more useful for the survival of the race than a civilian craft as not only that all of the combat troops would be of breeding age unlike the civilians so even on a keeping a large number of the population alive to rebuild its a dumb idea far better withdraw to neutral space and work with the government in exile if necessary create one and use your limited combat force sparingly in hit an run raids on the opposition fight a Guerilla war
Does anyone else get the impression that this whole bit was Narn propaganda? Aside from the super-selfless dialogue from the bridge crew and the Centauri's obligatory attempt at shooting down a transport full of women and children (and with something like five or six of the villains' ships all failing to hit the one spunky little ship), we also have the ship's captain constantly eyeballing the camera. My guess is that they were real military personnel made to perform the bit for a camera crew, and the captain wasn't used to having a camera around, so he kept looking at it instead of pretending it wasn't there.
The Narn can be accused of many things... but no matter what happens, they never betray their sense of honor.
It matters to them more than their lives.
I could only hope that when my day comes, I could die with half as much dignity as these Narn..
Narns got so bent over by Centauri in this show.
One thing that could have made this better is if just before the ship exploded the captain said to his bridge crew "It has been an honor serving with you all".
the shadows were using the centauri to start a galactic war.
never surrender no matter the reason
We stand on the bridge and none may cross
we live for the one we die for the one
they may not have been rangers but they fought like rangers and deserved to be remembered as rangers
yup. They had strong hulls that can absorb a lot of damage and plenty of firepower. But not fast or maneuverable as compared to the White Stars, which is why they got their asses kicked.
It was actually just the Narns and the Drazi who attacked Centauri Prime. The other ISA worlds weren't invited to the party.
awesome shots of fighter combat here
In the scheme of things it was a terrible decision by the captain. The Narns would have been much better served by the survival of that cruiser than by the rescue of a handful of civilians.
I really enjoyed most of the ship designs in B5. The Narn ships may have been my favorite though.😀
People complain about the way the captain looked into the camera at the end. I think it was deliberate. He is saying "How would YOU have handled this?"
He was looking at Kirk, and saying, you cannot cheat death when doing your duty.
Nah, it's just that it was Narn propaganda. They were pretty notorious for it at this point.
I like to think he was giving a final acknowledgement to the rest of his crew, despite knowing they were about to die they did not panic
The Narn are a Noble species.
lol as noble as "klingons"
@girlgarde Don't forget, in Season 1 it was the Narns who were the aggressors. That was until the Massacre at Quadrant 37 by the shadows at Londo Mollari's request. Then after that, the Narn suffered the Wrath of the Shadows at Quadrant 14 and the Battle of Gorash 7, both orchestrated by Londo Mollari again. Thus causing the Narn to lose the war only after 6 months and become an occupied territory for a 2nd time by the Centauri.
The Narn G'Quan class warcruiser has got to be one of the best looking warships on Babylon 5, right next to the Minbari Sharlin class.
Fair point.......I guess it all boils down to what would u do in that situation......it can be argued for and against the captains actions......though I would say....the captain would not have known what the outcome of the war would have been at that point......so in his defence....he sacrificed himself and his soldiers.....to allow those civilians to live for the future.....even if that future eventually turned out to be beneath the heal of the Centauri!!!
The use of early Amiga CGI so hurt the look of this series. By contrast, Deep Space 9 still looks pretty damn good in the effects department most of the time, mostly thanks to all the model use. It's not their fault of course and really, the jank was obvious even when it was new.
3.5 mil vs 900k per episode will get you that unfortunately.
If one side has artificial gravity and the other side does not, that is a massive, massive technological gulf. The implications for physics behind the ability to create gravity artificially would be a fantastic leap in related and unrelated capabilities. The effect on acceleration and maneuverability alone would be an almost insurmountable advantage.
We who were/are Soldiers know our ultimate duty is to those whom we are charged to protect.
Not how it's framed. The scene itself is clearly showing us the audience "what happened." G'kar was showing them a report on the incident. Probably flight recorder data. It's meant to be taken at face value. The Centauri were wiping the Narns out.