The Story of the Guarded Flower
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- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2024
- Excerpted from Babylon 5, season 5 episode 10 "A Tragedy of Telepaths": a brief allegory about how decisions that made sense at one time can lead to traditions and laws that make absolutely no sense.
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The British created a civil-service job in 1803 calling for a man to stand on the Cliffs of Dover with a spyglass. He was supposed to ring a bell if he saw Napoleon coming. The job was abolished in 1945."
Seems like some guys got a cushy job, chilling, watching the ocean all day. Yeah it might have gotten boring, but the most relaxing kind of boring.
Lol like they were half expecting for Napoleon to come back as a zombie.
Such things happen In a monarchy.
Other than Robert Sobel, do you have a source for that?
I can only find references after Sobel's book was published, which could mean he made up the story as a witty aside.
@@macrussell78 You have no idea how tenacious the little blighter was.
For anyone who has ever served in the military this story makes perfect sense.
Natasel
Oh you just described the field of medicine perfectly!
Anyone who has ever lived in a country with a monarchy *(Holds up hand as an Englishman)* will know about this. There are so many traditions that we carry on, purely because they are traditions. How else do you explain British Royal Guards, standing to attention in the middle of summer, when its 45 Celsius in the shade in London and they are wearing massive bearskin hats that guarantee they will pass out with heat exhaustion
Supposedly this is based on real-life event. All though with imperial Russia. Apparently Catherine the great gave orders to guard a flower she was fond of, and that order was carried out for 80-100 years after her dead.
@@weldonwin Fortunately, it's 2019, so they can sneak in some fans and other cooling options to the attire, but those who came before were not so lucky.
@ja da You would have wondered, sure, but would you have asked? Surely there are more unpleasant tasks that this might be keeping you from. I know I would have invented a story, or probably many stories. "A wizard was buried there in unconsecrated ground with a stake through his heart, and it is my job to make sure he does not rise as a vampire."
There was an old story amongst artillerymen, may be apocraphal, but I believe it. Supposedly, sometime after WW Two, the British Royal Artillery decided to bring in an Industrial Efficiency Expert, to see if they could make the process of emplacing, and firing their artillery pieces faster. After watching the process a number of times, the expert asked why, after emplacing and loading the gun, they paused in firing until one of the gun crew reached a certain point off to the side. The artillerymen, and the senior cadre didn't know, they had just been trained to hold fire until the six man had reached that particular point. No one could figure it out until they asked a very old, retired sergeant major who had been an artilleryman his whole career. He replied that that was the man who went over to hold the reins of the horses that pulled the guns, so they wouldn't run off when the gun fired. The delay cost time, but better that than having your horses run away when the gun fired, but even after the artillery transitioned to being towed by motorized vehicles, they kept doing things as they had been trained to do for all those years.
Considering the lining up into formations in an open field style of fighting persisted for decades into the existence of machine guns, I can honestly believe it.
@@andrewbergman4783 The Spanish-American War and early WWI beg to differ one your "lining up in formation was dead by the 1880s" claim. By then, the maxim had already rendered the gatling gun obsolete.
Sadly lining up in formation crap didn't truly die until WWI, which by then machine guns were fairly common place.
Come to think of it, once they had fancy anti-people rounds for cannons, like grape shot, canister shot, etc., line formation was obsolete. Sadly, it persisted for decades...
@@andrewbergman4783 Nah, my dad was a history buff, especially military history, and I picked up a good bit from his studies.
People were still bunching up and advancing in big, easy to spot groups until WWI showed just how ass-retarded that was on a big enough scale that it couldn't be ignored anymore.
@@InfernosReaper That's not formation fighting. Wave tactics as practices in WWI was also not formation fighting. the idea behind a wave is to try to get through no man's land as quickly as possible with enough men to do any good when you hit the enemy trench. Until the invention of armored vehicles there was simply no way to do that which didn't involve a lot of men risking the guns at the same time in the hopes that enough slipped through to take the enemy's trench line. There's a world of difference between that and the kind of line abreast formation tactis that typified an 18th century European battle.
I actually used to think the way you do, but only 2 battles really had troops marching in formation into battle, and they were both early in the war -- in the Battle of Mons and the Battle of Loos, and in both situation it happened due to intelligence failures, the soldiers were in marching formation and didn't realize they'd entered a battlefield and were shot to pieces before they could break formation and do anything useful.
That came later. He’s referring to the skirmish line tactics of 1914, before the trenches came about. Soldiers lined up in two ranks and would maneuver thusly. Additionally it was expected that troops would fire as a unit under orders from an officer, often with mechanical means to enforce single firing. The exception was during charges, where troops would use their magazines to rapidly fire at will. While an open order formation, it was still a formation, and machine guns and quick firing artillery made short work of them when caught out in the open. The excessive length of guns like the G98 can be put down to this doctrine, since between firing in ranks and bayonet combat, the long barrel was deemed necessary to prevent shooting your comrades in the back, or being unable to get into bayonet range because your opponent has an extra half-meter of reach, and impaled you from just outside your own range. All of this is farcical when whe know how WW1 would actually turn out, but this is how prewar doctrine worked. It wasn’t until late war when we see squad tactics as we know them become universally accepted, and of course by WW2 we’ve devolved things down to the fireteam level.
When Bismarck was Prussian Ambassador at the Court of Alexander
II in the early 1860's, he looked out of a window in the Peterhof
Palace and saw a sentry on duty in the middle of the lawn. He
asked the Czar why the man was there. The Czar asked his
aide-de-camp. The aide-de-camp did not know. The commanding
general was summoned. "General, why is that soldier stationed in
that isolated place?" asked the Czar.
"I beg leave to inform your Majesty that it is in accordance with
ancient custom."
"What is the origin of the custom?" put in Bismark.
"I do not recollect at present," answered the general.
"Investigate and report the result," ordered Alexander.
The investigation took three days. They found that the sentry was
posted there by an order put on the books eighty years before!
Records showed that one morning in the spring of 1780, Catherine
the Great, who ruled Russia at the time, looked on that lawn and
saw the first flower thrusting above the frozen soil. She ordered
a sentry to be posted to prevent anyone from picking the flower.
And in 1860 there was still a sentry on the lawn -- a memorial to
habit, custom, or just everyone's saying, "But we've always done
it just that way."
Thanks! I will remember that old & forgotten piece of history.
I've heard that tale, but in version I heard it was a roses planted to her garden, which in turn were gift to her from unnamed European ambassador. Catherine valued the friendship so greatly, she ordered the planted roses to be guarded. In this version also it was finally uncovered by a curious Czar(again unnamed).
But was the order ever countermanded when they discovered the reason? Or are they still doing it today?
mike the man one of the few things that is utterly stupid... We always done it that way......
@@Egobyte83 Even during Soviet times, and today under The Federation, this continues. In the Soviet era, it was handled by the Executives guards, today it's done by the Presidential Guard.
A large urban Fire Dept had a standing order that all the tires of the station's apparatus would be washed each evening. One Firefighter asked why, but could not get an answer, even after asking retired Firefighters. Intrigued, he researched old station log books and the standing order went back decades until he finally found the answer.
19th century Fire stations would wash the wooden wheels of their horse drawn engines to remove the manure and dirt collected from the streets, the routine was never altered, no one questioned it, even after motorized fire trucks were implemented and roads were paved.
Thus a lesson in mindless rote and bureaucracy.
There was another reason. The wooden spokes would dry out and shrink, causing them to fall out and the wheels fall off. Learned this from my grandfather whose father was a fireman. You wetted or oiled the spokes every day. He learned to do it as a young child visiting his father at the fire station.
@@richardbeckenbaugh6988 they would also park wooden wheeled buggies and wagons in the creek to cover the wheels and let them soak a few hours so they wouldn't dry out.
I worked in EMS and we did the exact same thing each morning. I thought it was excessive and asked why. The boss said it's a mix of tradition and cause those trucks should look spotless when you come to save someone. Imagine it, you're laying on a ground in pain and some soiled ambulance pulls up. Yes it's all cosmetic and 9 out of 10 people will probably be preoccupied with the pain and not notice, but for some it does not inspire confidence. An Ambulance that looks like crap can be terrifying.
In other words, I doubt your story is actually about mindless rote and bureaucracy, but independent preference and passing on tradition that gets forgotten over time.
(I should also note we did not wash the trucks if a drought was going on.)
Most cities would have been paved. So that dust was probably older dried up powderized manure.
G'Kar and Londo...two fascinating characters portrayed by two simply amazing actors. This scene is a perfect example of the depth these two could put into a performance
Didn’t hurt they had such a wonderfully complex and fated relationship...
The first two minutes of this scene is better than anything Star Trek Discovery has ever put out. Just amazing. No special effects.
@@elijahsdad Not a particularly high barrier to jump over, is it? A snail could pass over the bar of Discovery. A hateful, spiteful, violent and disgusting show. Alex Kurtzman along with J.J. Abrams has turned Star Trek into mindless action dreck at best and violent, hateful torture at worst.
Babylon 5 however has withstood the test of time because of it's excellent writing, amazing characters and world-class acting.
@@grendelum
My opinion is B5 is all about G'Kar and Londo.
How did Andreas express such emotion through a layer of latex??!? Even without audio, his intentions are unmistakable.
He was an incredibly talented actor, he would have been amazing for motion capture nowadays.
Aggravated Introvert now I can't help but imagine him as Gollum...
And now I'm picturing him as Smaug.
There are some men who get far less recognition than their talent demands. This is one such person.
Before B5, I usually remembered him as that guy playing Mafia thugs in every other movie. I was a kid back then, now I can appreciate actors in theatre, voice actors, and the likes. But that's the how things are, people forget the man behind the role.
I remember hearing about a business that had to replicate all its documents in triplicate. Eventually someone asked why but no one knew, so they looked back. It was to prevent records being completely wiped out in the blitz.
A little girl watched her mom hack off the end of the roast before placing it in the pan. The girl asked why. The mom said because her mom always did it, go ask nanna. Nanna told the girl that her own mother had done it but also didn’t know why. The little girl then went to ask her very old grand nonna who told her that she had had to cut off whatever did not fit in the small pan she had.
I think that happened a lot in Southern cooking, and because the mothers and grandmothers never wrote anything down those recipes were lost to history when they died.
My grandmother was a great cook and I’m really good myself. I called my dad and asked if he knew if she wrote down recipes and he said she didn't so I'm trying to do better and write down recipes I come up with.
At a place I used at we had a procedure to buzz people in at night. We typically worked in a back office and if anyone buzzed the door we had to get up, walk around the desk to the office door and go down the front desk about 20 feet to the console to check the camera, answer the phone and hit the buzzer.
I noticed in the back office we had a tv mount and the console was only about 4 feet away from where we sat in the back if you went through the wall.
I asked if we could just move the console on to the mount in the back, a mount that was designed for that console.
The managers said it needed to be in the front. I asked why, they said the maintenance department said so. I went to the maintenance guy, he said he didn't know, so he asked his boss. Turned out when they installed the system the cable they bought wasn't long enough to reach the back office. The GM said they would discuss getting a slightly longer cable so they could actually mount it in the back. But they forgot about it and no one ever bothered to fix the problem. So a perfectly good video mount in the back office went unused for almost 20 years because no one bothered to order a slightly longer video cable. People actually walked past it every day, the work desk was directly in front of it, hundreds of staff over the years looked at it, and no one even thought about it.
I became the new Manager of a condominium office that only had one office employee. When someone eventually came in needing their spare key, or maintenance needed a key, this person would get up and walk across a long room to get to the Key Box; insane. I moved the Key Box behind a small vertical wall by the employee's desk, such that they could roll back, open a log, reach the spare key's in 5 seconds. I also made all maintenance tickets to have a 24 hour lead, and all the entry keys prepped the night before. The staff person and Board of Directors went ballistic because 'the key box was not across the room'.
Sounds like it was protected by an SEP (Somebody Else's Problem) field. Much cheaper than invisibility and just as effective.
I'm sure lots of people did think about it. They just never spoke up because clearly there was a reason it wasn't already set up.
This was what I always loved about Londo. He was willing to stand by G'Kar when he needed it, but, ALWAYS understood why G'Kar remained wary of Londo regardless. It's no wonder the two became friends by the end because they understood each other so well.
My father used to say if you dont like someone, get to know him better.
Friends to the bitter, bitter end. Their story was fantastic!
@@613harbinger316 their bond was deeper than brothers deeper then fathers and children.
When the time came he could have easily used a gun but didn’t.
Londo trusted only g’kar to end him when he was about to lose his control completely and attack Sheridans son.
In some ways this bond was more important to them then life itself.
You can see this with just how much Londo is doing his best to make sure that G'kar knows he's not defending the order but rather how such royal apathy can influence Centauri society in how absolute the authority they hold influences small orders like the Flower Guard.
Bureaucracy , the great headless beast that rolls pitilessly over both great and small and doesnt even notice their blood in its treads.
I'm not sure I'd call this "bureaucracy", really, though it has some things in common. This is more autocracy -- the unaccountability of absolute power, not the unaccountability of multilayered organizations. In a bureaucracy, you might never know who gave the order; in an absolute monarchy, you know exactly who gave the order, but you don't dare question it on pain of death.
woozalia, true, but in both it can be simply forgotten or rolled under by so much paperwork it never sees the light of day again.
woozalia - You are naive if you think the exact same thing cannot happen in a democratic system. Idiotic laws remain in power and can hurt people sometimes for no other reason that nobody cares enough to remove them, or because there is some group with just enough power to nullify any will for change in that matter. This is not a trait unique to autocratic system, it is one to rigid ones, and republics tend to do exactly that because of strict adherence to the wording and not the spirit of their laws.
+Z Zs I'll still take the democratic system over the autocratic, thank you very much. You're naïve if you think those two have equal value as a whole.
Ares99999 - Nice strawman, but i said nothing of the sort and you damn well know it.
One of my favorite stories to tell when making an example of blind overzealous obedience without asking once in a while "is this still necessary or can we change it?"
The backbone of the great Centauri Republic’s mighty military.
Every scene these two had together was brilliant. I forgot how much I used to love this show.
Even understanding why "these things happen"...it doesn't mean you can do anything to change them. This show made me grow up a lot faster than I planned on from watching it.
I think this is the first time G'Kar acknowledged Londo's present post as Prime Minister of Centauri Prime, at least in the series.
It's even better when you know that Season 5 wasn't even supposed to happen. At least, not like this. The original plans for seasons 4 and 5 were ultimately condensed into season 4 for fear of cancellation, and when the show was unexpectedly still renewed for a 5th season, they came up with sort of a season-long epilogue for it. The fact that the cast, particularly Londo and G'kar, are still so fantastic and bring some real meat to the material even after the main story vision has played out and is now running on fumes is all the more admirable.
I just saw the series recently, and I didn't know anything about condensing seasons . I watched the episodes as they came, and thought that the end of the series was always supposed to show how Londo wound up becoming an enslaved emperor, completing his destiny, how Vir became emperor, completing his, how it all worked out for all the main characters, and then Sheridan died. It works just fine as it is. I never saw any fumes.
@@kimmccarthy7747 I didn't mean to suggest that it didn't work fine in the end. It totally did. Just a little bit of trivia, that's all.
@@TheAdorkableRJ I know, but the casual viewer would never catch it.
@@kimmccarthy7747 "Sleeping in Light" was alway planned to end the series, it got moved from season 4 to season 5 when they got renewed for the 5th season
Yea the Telepath colony story on board B5 was tiresome. Instead it should have been more about the Telepaths going to war.
Londo still found a way to get her out even though he had to humiliate and make a fool of himself to do it. I would post a link to that clip if I could find it.
ruclips.net/video/vZlo11DF_a4/видео.html
@@franksol428 Thank you, thank you, thank you!!
Is it this clip?
ruclips.net/video/vZlo11DF_a4/видео.html
For those wondering, him and G'Kar took advantage of Centauri courtly etiquette stating that if you see someone doing something embarrassing, you didn't actually see it. So they dressed her up in fancy clothes, gave her a veil and Londo pretended to be really, really drunk and, treating her like an escort he was trying to impress, walked her out of the palace and into a shuttle while everyone they came across did their best to avert their gaze and G'kar followed along acting as the beleaguered bodyguard.
So love this scene, both how angry G'kar is in it at the start,, how dismayed an ashamed Londo looked at what happened, but also how restrained an understanding G'kar was even with all the anger he still felt after hearing the explanation an understanding ti was merely a mistake with no malicious intent behind.
Although it was the mad Cartagia who initially gave the order. I don't think even if he did remember Na'Toth he would have rescinded the order, unless he had an alternative fate for her in mind...
Well, no malicious intent from anyone who was still alive, anyway...
@@Bek359 Well that is the thing she was put down there by them, yet i meant more that her still being down there an not released had no maliciousness behind it. As was said most likely no one remembered she was down there, so how could they release her, that is regretful an terrible, but in the end no one did it knowingly to spite anyone. It was a pure mistake that was regrettable, but also in the concept of this was something that happens.
@@elricengquist9989 makes you wonder who else might be down there that Cartagia ordered imprisoned, who got forgotten by everyone but the guards watching the cells and arranging the meals?
@@elricengquist9989
The scene makes no sense. This story is utterly inappropriate in the circumstances.
There was a Japanese soldier who fought World War 2 in the forests of the Philippines all by himself long after the war is done.
Others on islands skipped over by the American leapfrog campaign. The Empire never followed up to find those men and relieve them of duty. The US never landed on those islands to capture those men and then take them home.
There were many such soldiers. The guy you are talking about is probably the one who fought till the 70's.
@@Pikkabuu he was
@@jayt9608
Unlikely. They would have to be over 90 years old and such old people don't survive alone in a jungle.
@@Pikkabuu The last hold out was relieved in 1974. He had entered the jungle as a seventeen year old in July, 1945. They found his officer still alive in Japan and he put on his WW2 uniform and went in and told him he was relieved. As Japan and the US were now allies, the US would not allow him to surrender. He was received with full honors by both the US and Japan. He was discharged and given a pension. There is a book about him. He was not completely alone, he made friends with hunters and smugglers in the jungle, that's how the government found out about him. The really unlikely part is that not only he survived but that the officer, who was nineteen at the time, also survived. Both nearly starved to death. In 1946, they were the only survivors of their unit. The rest had starved or died of disease before the war ended. It was assumed that he had perished with his cut off unit so no one was looking for him. He wasn't actually fighting, he was avoiding surrendering. He succeeded. The price was pretty high. Both his parents and grandparents passed while he was in the jungle, never learning that their son was still alive.
This is actually a story of Imperial Russia. Look it up its pretty cool
Thanks, I've just found it and I'm just about to read it.
@@CJWarlock can you post link pls.
@@dontbeadebil5046 It's to be found by "guarded glower" phrase. :) Here: groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.folklore.urban/kjhmKujuEQo or here: i.imgur.com/bEvq52h.jpg - I've red it somewhere else but these two say the same thing as what I've red.
Pretty sure that's what the Centauri were based on in general.
@@kenfury23: I think it's a mixture of the Russian Empire, Prussia and Italy. The Italian love of food and drink, the mentality and hierarchy of the Russian Empire, and the militaristic ideals and academic fencing of Prussia.
That was a well done scene between two actors whose characters were a study in opposites, yet had come to mesh with much interaction. I've read several great stories here that parallel the story line. The script writers were well versed in history!
Renembers when Jeremy Clarkson had that incident with a security guard in a US airport who ordered Clarkson to move literally 1 meter to smoke for some rules, Clarkson said it didnt made any sense and the guard replied "you dont need common sense when you have rules"
Such a brilliant show.
I remember this scene, and the one before and after it. She was discovered by G'Kar and Molari by accident b/c raw spool was being sent down to the cell and nobody eats eats raw spool..................nobody but Narn.
I love the character ark of Londo and G'Kar. Two bitter enemies who would become the closest thing to brothers.
Londo died with G'kar's hands around his neck.
@@weedeater62 Yes but at that time Lando was controlled by a shadow parasite. In order to save him and both their people, G'Kar had to kill Lando when the parasite was no in full control. They both planned that moment to strike.
near the end
gkar says to londo
"our people will NEVER forgive your people but i do forgive you"
such a powerfull statement and the look londo gave shows the love he felt for that
@@Yuurei21It was ultimately an act of mercy…
I wonder if that guard is still there. I imagine Turhan could have ended the guard’s duty. But Centauri do like their traditions, and it’s not like the palace is short on guards, and nor is there anything abhorrent in the order. I could see him instead ordering a flower planted there and tended - and guarded - in the name of the dead princess.
Londo speaks of it in the past tense, so I guess Turhan stopped it, since it was utterly pointless.
Some British field guns had a crew of 5 men. 4 doing reasonable stuff on the gun, loading, aiming etc. The fifth soldier was standing at attention a bit to the side, not doing anything. Some ww2 general noticed that and asked what he was doing. The general being american, the brits did everything they could to answer the question. Turns out, he was supposed to be holding the horses. Which had been abolished 25-30 years before.
British and German were still using horse drawn guns at the start of the WW2 so I suspect this story is a bit more recent than that.
It's scenes like this that show just how special Babylon 5 truly was.
Great story (the flower story). These details are among the reasons B5 was SO great, IMO.
This is why a monarchy with absolute authority can be so terrifying: A single order, given centuries ago, is expected to be followed until countermanded. But then, the ruler forgets the order was given, so it is never countermanded. How many other cells like this are in the dungeons, holding people that the emperor has forgotten?
Actually such things happen when any civilization got large enough, it doesn't matter what system. Too many people, too many things got forgotten. It's only seem particularly problematic in this situation because no one has the power to countermand the order. There are plenty of order, traditions, titles, jobs, etc. that lives on until no one remembers why it was there in the first place unless they check history. And it don't always have to do with monarchy. How many traditions that you grew up with, you know the actual reason to them? Civilization forgot more then they remember.
Except that it isn't a monarchy. This is an error in the scriptwriting. You can't have somewhere that's both a monarchy and a republic. A republic is somewhere that isn't ruled by a monarchy. It's referred to throughout the show as the Centari REPUBLIC. An emperor isn't a monarch, even though he can act like one and set up a dynasty. An early example of this was the Roman republic from Julius Caesar onwards. Another was Napoleon. He wasn't a King or a Prince and France was a republic at the time.
The UK isn't a republic because its head of state is a monarch. Neither are Australia and Canada for that matter.
@@daviddavies3637 Not really, because naming conventions are largely pointless. They are the Centuri republic, because that is what they allow the humans to call them. Just like they allow the humans to think they are related post first contact. What does English conventions matter to an alien species.
Compare this to a presidency, where an order is followed until a following president gives a counter order by chance. It would be even harder to remember giving the order when it is someone else who gave the original order... 😜
this happens in any bureaucracy. At my job I have to check a door that is electronically locked and make sure the "door knob" doesn't turn every night. Fun fact, there is no door knob but back in ye old days someone made that part of my current positions job description.
Brit here.
Served in the Royal Air Force; every barrack block has a square of grass between it and the next. Until 1984, no-one was allowed to cross the grass, but had to walk around up to three sides to get to anywhere they wanted to go.
In 1984, all the alternating black and white painted kerbstones were painted green as a part of the 'toning down' of military installations so that missile seeker heads would have less contrast to work with and miss, in our case hitting London instead.
At the same time, beaten earth pathways began to appear going across the grass squares between doorways and exits in fences, simplifying getting anywhere wonderfully.
Eventually these were unofficially made permanent by being filled in with gravel.
No order was given, no permission was asked as far as I know.
I am willing to bet that a standing defence council instruction DCI was accidentally / on purpose not copied into the new version of the DCIs.
I watched this scene with no context on here, the one single thing that convinced me to watch it
Amazing. Thank you for uploading this!
One of my favorite stories from the series.
There´s a legend about an Emperor in Ancient China who was said to put a guard next to his youngest daughter´s favourite Lotus flower in the Palace´s Gardens.
Don´t know if I it´s true but that guard duty only ended after the Communist revolution...
the poor flower , oh well , these things happen.
I study a great deal of chinese history and I have not heard that one. Would be great if this segment was indeed based off that. But I do have several bizarre chinese events and stories, and this wouldn't be out of place.
As for a strange story if you are curious. Emperor Cao Rui {Emperor Yuanzhong), was suggested by one of his advisers (in an arguably sarcastic note) that he increase his number of concubines. Well the emperor chose to go into the extremes. He ordered that all beautiful married women in his domains be seized unless their husbands were able to ransom them, otherwise they would be married to soldiers instead-but that the most beautiful among them would become his personal concubines. The order was carried out to the letter despite officials protesting and the population being overly distraught and angry about it.
Brilliant...beautiful...and sad truth. We sometimes do things without understanding the reason. In education...as in the military...we do things that make no sense but do it because it has always been done that. Way. Sad truth.
The best scifi series ever made in my opinion.
I like to think that under normal circumstances, the Regent would have gladly co-operated, but considering he was under Drakh control courtesy of one of those horrible little Keepers (though of course Londo was unaware of that at the time), there is no telling what he might have done.
That's what they mean.
@@roguishpaladin Again, Londo didn't yet know the whole story (though he would in time).
It is also that Cartagi wasn't denounced, officially he died because of natural reasons (hearts collapsed) presumably by reacting to rebellion of narnian prisoners. As Emperror's orders aren't cancelled even after their death, there is no reason for the regent to cancel this particular one.
there was a marine assigned to guard duty on the perimeter out in the desert by 29 palms back in the 80's, they assigned him in a spot out of eyesight of the camp. they soon got the order to pack up but no one thought to recall the lone marine and they left him there in the desert guarding nothing and left him to die when they left. was in the army but thought he should be remembered.
???? Isn't that left behind?! Gross negligence?! Did he even try to return to populated settlement when he found out? Especially when his canteen needed filling. Surely when someone started counting who is attendance there would mean helicopters and cars?!
This story was literally 1 of the best. Like the guards..we forgot about Natoff ourselves.
While nigthmarish, imagine being given the guard duty of watching over the flower long after it was gone. Probably the most boring job to do.
Subject: Company Policy
Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang a banana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the other monkeys with cold water. After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result - all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon, when another monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it.
Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.
Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm! Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth.
Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked. Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey.
After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys has ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana.
Why not?
Because, as far as they know, that’s the way it’s always been
done around here.
And that, my friends, is how company policy begins.
Yeah, that's the "panopticon" phenomenon -- and while I think this story is making a *slightly* different point, you're not wrong that panoptics are probably at work. Why would the soldiers keep obeying a meaningless order? Out of fear of being executed -- even knowing that the order was no longer meaningful, even without ever having seen anyone else get executed for abandoning a meaningless and long-forgotten post.
That said, some emperors can be quite strict about following procedure; even questioning a long-outdated order like that might be seen as a sign of dangerous insubordination. The hazard for questioning it could indeed be very real.
I first read this story in Morgenthau's _Politics Among Nations,_ gods, back in the early 90's....Succinctly describes every government I've ever dealt with.
The writing and the acting🔥🔥
I'm watching this season right now on DVD!
If it's your first time, I envy you!
"These. Things. Happen." 'Nuff said!
Due to G'kar's insistence (and threat of palace-wide mayhem), their solution to get Na'Toth out of the palace was most creative, and quite effective! Something G'kar could NEVER have thought of himself, not being intimately familiar with palace life. Londo, of course, had the perfect solution: those in the palace are trained from a young age to avoid embarrassment of other nobles, and so forcibly ignore any situation which could cause a nobel to lose face in public (unless it served their own family in some way, of course!)
During military service, one of the jobs anyone could be given was 'fire piquet', someone could collect a huge bunch of keys and go around every place, open up, check windows were closed and secured from the inside, check all safes were shut and the dials spun 5 times to prevent access, deal with items left on the ground and most importantly, empty all ashtrays into waste-paper baskets (it actually said that).
The first time I did the job, I actually collected all of the ashtray contents in a large jar and dumped it outside in the outdoor smoking area, in a firebucket on a lamp pole.
I mentioned that the regulation was inviting a major fire, was told that 'done correctly it has always been okay'.
Ten days later a major personnel paperwork building burnt out shortly after midnight.
I expect the last regulation change wasn't as old as someone thought.
Andreas Katsulas at the height of his acting talent, I would say.
Madness is as common as hydrogen out there...be weary.
Hydrogen, Madness, and Stupidity are the three most common elements in the Universe. And not necessarily in that order.
Didn't G'kar say it was Matter, Energy, and Enlightened Self-interest?
I have longed for the day that the US judicial system gets an in-depth examination to see how many 'guards are standing over flowers'.
There was a proposal years ago to apply expert-system technology to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights; make a system that can test Laws for Constitutional muster and legality.
There are countless Laws on the books that serve not the public interest but the interests of individuals and Corporations.
Case Law is a good thing, but sometimes a Courts ruling can abuse the rights of others.
If every Law in this great land were run through a reliable 'Constitution filter' rather than politically charged deliberations, we might become great again on the merits of our way of government.
There are many real-world examples of this. Many times, it goes on so long that it just becomes tradition. It's not always because of bureaucracy like many are pointing out. Most of the time it is legitimately because so much was going on at the time that everyone completely forgot why they even started something. There will be a legitimate reason for it most of the time.
Like how someone pointed out with Fire trucks. There was a legit reason to clean those tires for decades and no one was going to stop doing it if it had become as routine and now a tradition.
I think this story is actually quite beautiful. It's so nice to imagine that a young girl's innocence can survive in some form or fassion 200 years.
That’s a uniquely positive way at looking at this…..situation.
Though Londo never specifies how old the Princess was when she gave that order.
Also can’t help but wonder if the original Centauri occupation of Narn lasted 100 years because the Emperor or some other member of the Imperial family at the time never thought to countermand an order to the Centauri Military.
Ah shame the scene ended so soon. That's a classic "wait for it - it get's even better" ;D
It's remarkable how many things get 'handed down' long after their original purpose has become obsolete.
'Port' and 'Starboard' on a ship hearkens back to the days before ships had rudders. Instead, they relied on something similar in concept, called a 'steerboard, which was located on the right side of the ship. Naturally, if a device like that is on the right side of the ship, you don't want it between you and a pier/dock, so the left side of the ship became the 'port side'. 'Steerboard' because 'starboard' over the years, and the tradition continues to this day, in both military and civilian craft.
The traditional US Navy's dress blue uniform (called 'crackerjacks' has origins in the British Royal Navy. The front 'flap' of the trousers for that uniform traditionally has 13 buttons - each signifying one of the 13 original colonies of the United States.
Many navies of the world still mark time by 'bells'. And maritime lingo is a language all its own.
Some of the old vets I've met described those buttons as "13 chances to change your mind" before doing something stupid on shore leave.
This is a good example of how and why the Centari lost there power.
Here in the USA in 1905 the government came up the the helium reserve just in case blimp warfare ever happened we would not have to use hydrogen (an explosive) for our blimps. They only got rid of the helium reserve about 100 years later. Also a tax was put on phone in the USA to help pay for the Spanish war, they only recently got rid of that tax
Most of the Mechanicum prayers and rituals in WH40K are overblown reinterpretations of basic instructions. Something that started out as 'Pull this lever to activate engine. Wait 15 seconds until priming charge is heard. Push yellow button marked with lightning bolt to engage motor', after 300, 400, or 10,000 years of improper repetition becomes "Pull the Blessed Lever of Priming whilst reciting the Hymn of Activation. Anoint the screws with holy unguent until the Machine Spirit within responds positively. Observe the yellow button, with its symbol of the Omnissiah's power, the bolt of lightning which sunders the dark, and with finger, waldo, or pressor, carefully push the button while Reciting the Psalm of the Electron. If all has been done according to ritual, the motor shall start. Remember to take 20 Terran minutes burning incense to thank the Omnissiah and the spirit of the machine, before operating."
One book had a guy trying to manually fire a missile, and when it came to the part of 'recite the canticle of Ignition', he had no idea what to say since it wasn't part of his usual duties or faith, so he just screamed "WORK DAMN YOU, WORK!" and mashed the button. Which got the same result, which was a launched missile. LoL.
Those 2 played so well off of one another. Loved this series. Sadly, if they do a reboot of it, it wouldn’t be as good I feel and they’d stick it only on a streaming platform
I feel like TV production, especially in SF, has improved since the 90s. B5 was clearly a standout of the time, but it seems possible to me that the intensity of feelings about it now might lead to something comparable. It won't be the same, but it could be as good.
It's best to leave B5 as it stands. Clean it up with modern tools great, but a recast would just leave a lot of angry dissatisfied fans regardless of who was cast.
Instead a new story with the same themes would be better. Not B5 but an eastern European grand Sci fi, yes please.
@@theghostoftom I certainly don't see any *need* to retell it... but if the writers and other creative folk involved feel there's something worth doing, there, I wouldn't assume they're wrong.
@@woozalia Sure, it will look amazing. But I'm not sure if anyone else will be able to pull off characters like Londo and G'kar like Katsulas and Jurassic did.
@@Crazael Oh of course it won't be the same. Hopefully the new actors will be excellent in their own way.
I remember, when I was reading through Space 1889 rulebook, there was a paragraph there about entire british regiments sent to colonies and then forgotten. Brits solution to the problem was to create pairs of regiments: one to serve in colonies and one in homeland and to switch these from time to time. Dunno if it's true story though, as it was written in rpg game in 80s (no wikipedia to fact check back then, only local library). Even though I can see how big monarchies/empire can loose entire groups of people in bloated bizantical structures. Kind of scary.
that is a fabrication, but as with all stories there is some fact to it.
The idea that the British Empire could forget about an entire regiment is stupid BUT.
This stems from people who don't understand military organizational structures, a regiment almost never deployed in full strength, usually they would leave 1 of their battalions behind (or even a just a small support staff) at the regimental barracks back in Britain. The strength of the regiment would go somewhere else for a time (and then come back) but during that time recruiting and other admin had to go on to replace losses so yes regiments were in 2 places at the same time as a matter of course but for the admin needs not incase the king forgot about them.
@@nilloc93 Yeah, that sounds more accurate. I remember in "Sharpe Regiment", there was this term "march on paper" for unit that don't exist in reality but is written to books to cover some expenses. Of course in Sharpe's case it was just a lie to cover extortion and fraud, but still, that also happened. In most cases, soliders didn't really cared where they are sent, as everywhere was harsh conditions, war etc. Officers did care though. Sending officer to colonies could effectivly end his career (especially for rankers, as gentry could just buy new patent), as wars were mostly in Europe. My favorite, Sharpe was threatened to often with assignments to Australia and America. Even though it was fiction it had some grain of truth in it.
@@keeperofthefate I would avoid basing my concept of reality on a fictional TV show
The moment you see Mollaris' accidental Hitler moustache you can't unsee it.
What?
Love this scene.
These things happen everywhere
I have been wondering what episode this was from. Thanks.
you never saw anything like this in star trek
May I direct you, to Star Trek Deep Space Nine.
No. At times, you saw better.
Deep Space Nine In the Pale Moonlight and ds9 Duet is a great example of great ds9 at its best.
but babylon 5 is still a far better show
@@tophatminion.7558 "In the Pale Moonlight" was a great episode. B5 was like that for most of Season 2 and 4 and all of Season 3. It was sustained run of brilliance that DS9 never touched.
I loved B5 and I've watched all the ST spinoffs, even Enterprise. But I never took to DS9, I don't know why.
It is like Babylon 5 was a religious film. So beautiful.
Found the salty atheist.
JMS himself is atheist, and yet not salty, seeing as he was able to write a number of episodes that dealt with religious philosophy both respectfully and in an engaging way.
In this way, edicts ought to expire and need to be renewed, and the laws should not extend from the tyranny beyond the grave. Each generation thus ought to make its own laws as it sees fit.
It is an offence to be drunk and in charge of a cow
The Licensing Act 1872 forbids people from being drunk while in charge on any highway or other public place of any carriage, horse, cattle, or steam engine. Sensibly, the act also prohibits people from being drunk when in possession of any loaded fire-arms.
Offenders face a hefty fine or imprisonment for a maximum of one month. If a fine was issued and not paid, then the court may order him to be imprisoned with hard labour. Probably best to leave your cow or steam engine at home if you are going for a night out.
fantastic example of hyperreality. present reality reflects past symbols, and forgets the reality which those symbols implied.
an alien would have absolutely no reason to stop his car at a stop sign. he might wonder what, from our natural primitive environments we have based our houses on.
Interesting story guarding a mere flower.
If noone knows she's there....open the door and walk away
Problem: That cell is underneath the actual Emperor's Palace of the Emperor's compound on Centauri. The most heavily guarded and protected area of Centauri Prime. NO ONE simply "walks away".
Plus - at least a couple of guards had to know she was there - at the very least for food delivery and sanitary considerations.
I completely forgot how this was resolved in the series. But I imagine at the very least a large set of bribes for the guards to keep quiet and some faked papers with the Emperor's Signature for forged release.
This is the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality.
@Phelan But that leaves you running with old technology and inefficiently. New competitors with new technology will pop up and run circles around you.
You need to constantly look for little ways to improve. Yes, some won't work. Some will cause setbacks. But you will advance and stay on top for much longer than if you rely on that old "running system."
I know it's a relatively minor point, but how does this story square with Londo countering Emperor Cartagia's decision to give Selini to the Shadows when he confronted Morden?
Dude seriously Centauri-splainin’
JMS is the king of world building!
Every regulation made in government must have a sunset clause.
Otherwise 200 years of guarding a long-forgotten flower.
That's an appealing idea, but... should rights (a form of regulation) expire? How about regulations that prevent the powerful from abusing the powerless? Health & safety regs?
I will grant that we need to be able to *update* our regulations much more quickly and accurately, and that "the voice of the people" should not be measured in dollars.
@@woozalia "Rights" which are natural and inalienable, are not the same, and no right is absolute. Are "Bill of Rights" can be reversed with the will of 2/3 of the legislature and 3/4 of the states. It's an extremely high bar to change a "right".
Regulations made by long-forgotten politicians should be reviewed regularly or else expire. If they are "good and relevant" then renewed.
@@JasonCarmichael I've often heard this claim that rights are natural and unalienable, which I suppose can be true if a "right" is an abstract principle rather than a legal structure, but that doesn't really help with whether you have the freedom to exercise them (cf. pretty much everything the USSC has done for the last week or two).
I agree that there are a lot of obsolete laws on the books, especially at the state level, but I'm not sure that automatic expiration at any level would be of net benefit, under the current system -- especially considering how difficult it can be to get *good* laws enacted.
Shame that most governments don’t make their laws and edicts idiot proof.
Though in the Centauri’s case, I’d imagine their soldiers (and palace guards) are trained to *never* disobey or question orders - especially ones directly from the royal family.
Honestly would explain a lot when you think about it.
See, in the real world that would become a cutesy little tourist tidbit and continued thereafter. Like the immovable ladder of the Holy Sepulchre.
Ah, the realities of the monarchy system. No glamour, just l… this.
The bureaucracy was developed precisely to counteract these absurdities.
That statement on royal bureaucracy is so ironic it loops around until it becomes almost sincere.
Thats a russian army story about a general that did the same, he puted a guard near a bench for 20 years and everybody forgot why
It's based on a real life story from Tsarist Russia. if anyone needs a source, "Alexander II: The Last Great Tsar" - Edvard Radzinsky
You do realize "tsarist" is a xenophobic term? It was invented once by the left propaganda that carried on into the USSR. It was then to fight the monarchy, but it has now become common usage by all kinds of people who try to present the myth of "Evil Russia" and has thus become a purely and solely xenophobic term as it implies negative connotation towards the "regime" that is btw still common for many countries like the UK just to spread negativity about every single period of russian history. Obviously Russia is built up to be perceived as the Arch-Enemy in the so called Western World. There was no "Tsarist Russia" though there was the Russian Empire with an Emperor or Empress for that matter. And Radzinsky is far from being a good historian. His pop-history might be fun for people who have little in depth knowledge of real history. Calling A.II. the last great tsar alone is borderline funny.
@@kumanon9466 There was once British Empire to which garrison at Russia was but a colony. The dynastic roots lied in germany and europe, to call it either 'empire' or 'russian' is no less funny.
he says such things happen in a monarchy but the correct term is bearucracy. any org that gets bloated enough has things slip through.
Where is the monologue that he did before the marriage of Sheridan and Delenn?
This is when they found out that you don't eat Spoo fresh.
Unless you happen to be a Narn. Only a Narn would have the stomach to eat fresh spoo.
Hugh S point taken.
That was the odd thing about this. They discovered that Natoth was there because G'Kar had lifted some spoo off a food cart and was commenting on how fresh it was. Molari told him it was supposed to be aged, only Narns like it fresh. That brought up the question, to whom was fresh spoo being served? But, why would such a delicacy as spoo be served to a prisoner in a dungeon, and a Narn at that? It's like the nazis serving pate de foie gras to a Jewish prisoner.
@@odysseusrex5908 One could infer that one of the Centauri who was responsible for feeding Na'Toth (or just of taking care of her) either got to know her or was kind enough to try and make some accommodations so that she'd at least have some Narn-appropriate food. If true, it would be a nice example of an average Centauri and not only Vir and Londo having empathy for the Narn (as most Centauri seemed to consider them to be overly self-important savages).
@@jalarasstudios414 Interesting idea, that is certainly a possibility.
These are called blue laws. Blue laws are the type of laws to restrict activity for any type of reason but are often forgotten and arbitrarily enforced. Whether they were for good or bad, these laws are on the books and some idiot will use them or ignore them whenever they want. They are 'tools' that shouldn't be used after the temporary application because the conditions that created the order must be processed again before use or they law become abusive in nature.
these things happen ..... ie Bureacracy!
Traditions, customs, habits and training will have you doing some stupid and sometimes deadly stuff. Like the story about the FBI agents who were once trained to pick up their expended brasses on firing ranges. I have been told (could be a myth) that FBI agents use to have the mantra "police up your own brass" pounded into them. So much so that it use to cause them to unconsciously police up their expended brass during real world small arms firefights. Supposedly, several agents were found dead with expended brass in their pockets and the FBI stopped this practice. Again, could be a myth. I don't know.
But because of what Londo said in this scene, the FBI agents' unconfirmed anecdotes and my own experiences, I hate the saying "we'll, we've always done it like this." I have a strong need to know why the fuck I'm being required to do or not do something. Yeah in a life and death situations, I have to roll with the punches. But when there's time (either before after the situation), I question authority often not out of disrespect, but because people, militaries, societies, etc. run on autopilot. Humans have a tendency to just mindlessly do crap and that tendency grows exponentially stronger as humans aggregate into larger and larger groups. We know this but humans will still act viscerally when you ask the question "Why?" It's like a lot of people just don't want to think and they definitely don't want you thinking either. Just shut up and color. What a load of crap!
As an LEO, l have to respectfully question that, sounds like an urban myth. In live action training, you don't stand down until the very end of the action. Expended brass is collected but at the end of the training not during.
But your point is WELL taken and God knows, there's plenty of other examples of mindless bureaucracy to choose from.
@@edmonddantes3640 no its actually true - not sure if the fbi was directly involved but in the 60s and 70s when police used revolvers they commonly pocketed the brass when reloading so they wouldnt have to spend time policing it up and that carried over into behavior in firefights with dead officers having handfuls or pocketfulls of fired cartridges
I heard a story like this. Two soldiers were assigned to guard a bench on the base. No-one knew why. Not their sergeant, not their captain, not even the base commander. It had just always been done that way.
Finally, a soldier manages to find and contact an old, retired general, who had been in command years ago when the base had first opened. And he asked why there were two soldiers guarding that bench.
"Goddamn it! Is that paint still not dry?!"
Power plants the seeds of insanity in the sane, and brings it to blossom from the breasts of madmen.
Damn .... I'ma have to watch Babylon 5 lol is it its own thing or part of another universe?
Ah, the problems of bureaucracy.
I'll make due...
There is nothing like the quality of writing from Babylon 5 out today, not even close.
Just plain stupidity to follow orders to that length.
Not stupidity in the traditional sense.
Blind obedience and loyalty in the Centauri’s case.
This story is based upon an old Russian story
Such things happen in a monarchy.
But I though the Centuari were a republic.
Apparently it was in name only, much like the German Democratic Republic. Wikipedia: "The government of the Centauri Republic is, despite it being called a republic, ruled by an Emperor and an assembly of Ministers and heads of various Houses that form the Centaurum."
@@hypertwins I was just taking the piss. The centuari are technically a republic, but they are a true republic in way Rome was. Not like our current perception of the democratic republics of today.
As seen after the death of Cartagia the Centurium elects the next emperor when no heir remains.
@@mikevignola4213the Babylon 5 Wiki specifically categorizes the Centauri Republic as a Constitutional Monarchy.
I’d imagine it was called the Centauri Empire in the not too distant past.
Why does the Great Centauri Republic ... have a monarchy? They’re kind of polar opposites.
Same reason the Peoples Republic of China is a dictatorship. Labels survive, long after they lose their truth, if they ever had it to begin with.
John Doe But China still has a president! An autocratic president, granted, but a president nonetheless! If he declares himself Emperor of China, the country could no longer be called a republic!
@@1andonlyzara a president who is a dictator. All term limits for the PRC president have been removed so he can stay in power until he dies if he wants, and since he has stayed in power longer than his predecessors, minus Mao.
isaac3702 But he’s still a president! Presidents don’t HAVE to have term limits! Hell, FDR served four terms! But he’s not an emperor or king or any other form of monarch, which makes China a republic! Republics don’t have monarchs!
@@1andonlyzara a president in what is essentially a single party state.
The CG doesnt hold up. and the Sets were pretty basic.. but DAMN if the characters wernt fantastic. I dont see how the remake could do this justice.
How I feel about working in the office. I'm Jakar
"These things happen... in a plutocracy."
@@woozalia don't tell me you can't make remote work happen we fucking did it already
@@BillHallProductions With those types, it's all about control, and... other things. (Techbros still trying to figure out how to do sexual intimidation over Zoom.)
@@woozalia i sat in an office with no computer for 2 days with literally nothing I could do
@@BillHallProductions A job I got in 1997 would have been like that -- there was no computer when I first showed up, some days after they officially hired me -- except I decided my time could be better used in going out to find a place to live (I was working away from home, in Wisconsin; staying temporarily in a hotel). Apparently someone was upset that I didn't just stay there with nothing to do.
I mean, think about this: they'd hired me to do coding, but there was no computer. They're paying me a pretty stiff hourly rate, and are upset that I decided not to waste their money any more than I absolutely had to...
The corporate mentality can be utterly baffling sometimes.
Londo has a story for every occasion. I'm pretty sure he makes them up on the spot.
Democracy has similar issues. IRS wasn't meant to be permanent, subsidies to suppliers and farmers to support a war and then payments continue long afterwar is over some to this day. Other things like happen.
I don't think the IRS claim is true, but I agree that temporary political horse-trading in order to accomplish more worthy goals often becomes enshrined as tradition. I think the mechanism is different, though -- it's not that the reason is forgotten, but that once a power-group gets a concession, they are likely to have the power to keep it... which all goes back to the fundamental problem of the influence of money often overwhelming rational decisionmaking.
@@hypertwins President Abraham Lincoln signed into law the first income tax - The Revenue Act of 1862 - appointing George S. Boutwell to the office of Commissioner of Internal Revenue. The Act was passed as an emergency and temporary measure to help fund the war, and it was supposed to terminate in 1866
@@telocity That created the Commissioner of Internal Revenue, not the IRS. The CIR was in fact allowed to expire after 10 years (1872). The IRS was only created in 1913, after a full-blown constitutional amendment (the 16th) permanently allowed Congress to impose taxes on income.
Even if you were completely correct about the history, though, I think my point still stands: there continues to be at least one well-known and widely-accepted reason to collect income tax; it's hardly a standing order whose origins were lost in the mists of time and which only continues to be carried out because of mindless (or fearful) obedience.
On the contrary, even -- I think our Wall Street royalty would very much like us to forget that we used to tax them *more*.