Born This Way? - John Corvino
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- Опубликовано: 26 мар 2013
- John Corvino neither knows nor cares whether he was born gay. In this video he explains how the obsession with "born this way" depends on scientific and moral confusion.
Dr. John Corvino, also known as the "Gay Moralist," is a writer, speaker, and philosophy professor at Wayne State University in Detroit. He is the author of What's Wrong with Homosexuality? and the co-author (with Maggie Gallagher) of Debating Same-Sex Marriage, both from Oxford University Press.
Find the book here: amzn.to/ZuIF2A.
Video by Chase Whiteside. Read more at JohnCorvino.com.
Genetic or not, sexual orientation is largely obligatory. We don't have much choice in who we're attracted to.
I didn't have to choose being straight, rather as I grew older the underwear models on the packages of bras in the mall started looking more and more appealing to me.
You're right that how you naturally feel doesn't dictate how right or wrong the feeling is, but natural feelings are still relevant to the discussion.
I have to agree with you FrankLightHeart, I too when growing older, the bra models in the Sear's catalog were becoming more and more appealing.
True , "born this way" sounds too much like an "excuse" for being gay. My homosexuality doesn't need to be excused - thank you very much.
The reason that people say this is because people use the belief that human sexuality is chosen kin order to subconsciously justify contempt and hatred through subjective ( and, therefore, contextually unfair and invalid) comparison. Even the term " homosexual lifestyle " carries the clear connotative oversimplified implication that homosexuality is chosen, and therefore, subconsciously worthy of contempt and hatred through subjective ( and, therefore, contextually unfair and invalid) comparison.
i think the genetic component is there. but as he points out the single most important point is: it doesn't matter.
Finally, someone who doesn't have a shallow view on this topic. It has greatly annoyed me how both sides make this into two dimensional images, and no discussion occurs.
When a debate starts with my friends or someone else about this topic, I never use that argument automatically. What I do is first question the opposing view what is morally wrong about it. They never have a serious response, much less when they take out the Bible, so that's generally the end of the debate, but there are stubborn ones too. Only when that happens is the moment I take the "born this way" argument, because it makes them question themselves as moral persons instead of questioning or judging others as moral persons; put simply, if sexual orientation is not bad and there is evidence supoorting the fact that sexual orientation is innate, thenthey are judging and sometimes even condemning someone for who they are from the core, approaching to racism, which is a pretty accurate comparison in my view.
Haha that ending totally made my day :)
All I know for a fact is that it DOES tend to run in certain families, in certain "gene pools", so to speak. My oldest brother is gay; my youngest brother definitley has some same-sex tendencies; I am gay; and, I recently discovered, so is my dad. Not to mention all of my first cousins who are either gay or bisexual...but you're right, it doesn't and shouldn't matter how this occurs; I just think that it's just a natural variation of human sexuality (and many mammalian animals) and I just figure it's a natural way of population control....more or less; lots of gay people do procreate during their lives. I'm happy just the way I am, the way I am convinced...I was born.
How is your dad gay if you have a mom? Something is in the water. Why bring up animals?
I really appreciate and thank you for your verbal essays John!
Ah, this is absolutely perfect. I should stop trying to explain to people why I like girls and why I am like this. Because I really, honest to God, don't give a crap.
Why not?
John Corvino, you are my Hero!!!! I agree with you so much, I don't need scientific proof to validate my sexuality.
I think it just sort of happens, like being right or left handed. There's no explanation for it, and once your brain decides on one or both hands, it's pretty much stuck that way.
He's absolutely right about the "gay gene". There are likely to be dozens or even hundreds of genes which make homosexuality more likely. The environment may then further influence the likelihood of being gay.
The only problem with saying that you don't know if you were born that way, is the reaction of parents who think their children may be gay trying to stop that from happening.
Again, very good discussion, as one should expect from a philosopher--bravo! (And the vignette at the last---you're a hoot...lol)
super agree to what u said, my friends always like to stereotype n fall for the "easy" answer n say its something born this way. I believe its all genetic behavior traits + wat u learn n u encounter along ur life...u just become who u r...there's not always a 1 certain fact abt everything, ppl r too typical minded with the science-textbook kind of thinking that it's always abt A-Z...
Great point u hav there.
You mean you don’t want it sound clinical? Or be medicalized? I know there’s too much of that without seeing the fellow human being who is otherwise no different than anyone else.
Great points. I like your style of delivery
“It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be.”
Thank you so much for your videos, we need more of those.
I agree totally! I thought I was crazy because I think that being gay is not a matter of choice, but not something you're born with, either. How can we talk about these things when nobody except God can look on a human mind from above. You need a human sapience to observe, think and judge and human sapience can't look on itself from above. It's a matter of a human soul - something so deep and mystical that nobody can really give us the only one right answer.
these videos are amazing
The 'born this way' argument has to be made to counter religious disagreements with our 'lifestyle'. Showering them with love and 'normalness' has not and is not getting us anywhere. By not countering the arguments from religious people, we are going to undeniably give them the "Ah-ha! I told you so!" moment, and that certainly wont do us any good.
So, it's just something that plays into the "is homosexuality a sin debate". If it's not a choice, then the side arguing that it is a sin pretty much gets turned belly up onto its head. A person cannot truly commit a sin if they made no choice in the matter
THANK you! I've always been a little annoyed at the idea that all we need to do is to convince people it's all about nature and not nurture. You know what else is influenced by environmental factors? Height. People who are raised during food shortages are more likely to be short than people raised when/where food is plentiful. I sure didn't choose to be 5'2". The only point that matters is that homosexuality can bring people joy without hurting anyone else, it isn't some kind of birth defect.
I don’t think anyone wants to be called defective.
"who among us says I'm gonna choose to be attracted to that person over there"
*closeted asexual sweating
you're either male or female. can't be neither, can't be both.
@@datrickster8674 tried really hard but you still missed
Im convinced this man is a time traveler of some sort these ideas are so progressive.
Hi John, love the videos and your new book first up! Although I have a question; in this video you suggest that traits people may be born with shouldn't necessarily be acted upon - the 'violent tendencies' analogy. But couldn't such tendencies also be a product of your early environment, which you point out that we can't possibly remember? I'm just curious as to how one would go about answering this...or have I just missed the wider point of this video? Many thanks.
Very well said. Thumbs up.
Did Chase Whiteside (my video guy) put you up to saying that? Because he totally called me out on my wide ties when we were picking out wardrobe for the videos. :)
At this point I must disagree, not entirely though but still. Abandoning phrase "I was born this way" will lead, in my opinion, to the very next step - "If you're not born this way, why don't you change it?". Even though human sexuality is complex matter and there are a lot of shades, I still think that core sexuality is inscribed into us, hardwired at genetic level. One thing is to act on the impulses or not (behaviour) but another matter is how the person feels.
My thoughts exactly! A complex combination of genes, hormones, body chemistry etc etc. which also gives us such a wide spectrum of orientations and behaviours. The search for "the reason for gayness" or whatever is just useless and won't make anyone happier or more enlightened.
The violent argument part
Kinda disproves this
I think, that if you look anywhere on the internet, there are some people that have stopped comprehending English.
"inadvisable though that may be." lol!
Very good. If only people would listen to this. Too many people seem to think that if there isn't a gene related to something it's unnatural and can be changed.
We don't know what causes homosexuality--that doesn't mean it's evil and can or should be changed.
YES!!! Thank you!
I think the "born this way" argument exists to "normalize" the lgbt community to straight people. It says "we're just like you, and if you perceive us as different- it's not our fault- we were born this way". I don't agree with the premise & its implied heteronormativity, etc all of the other implicit bs, but I think (for now) it may have an important social function in the less understanding parts of the world.
Even the term" homosexual lifestyle " has the clear connotative inference of choice. And said inference exists for a reason. Before something can be seen as being wrong it first must be seen as being chosen, and, therefore subconsciously worthy of contempt and hatred through subjective ( and, therefore, contextually unfair and invalid) comparison.
I agree completely.
Great videos
Even if homosexuality WAS a choice, it would be a perfectly valid one. It does not hurt anyone anymore than heterosexuality.
Before something can be seen as being wrong it first must be seen as being chosen, and therefore subconsciously worthy of contempt and hatred through subjective ( and, therefore, contextually unfair and invalid) comparison.
Nail.
Head.
Hit.
"Born this way" and "you chose that lifestyle" is a false dichotomy.
The description of homosexuality as a lifestyle is a blatant oversimplification of human sexuality in general and homosexuality in particular. Such indoctrination of the collective societal psyche is paramount to both the formation and maintenence of the self validating delusion of heterosexuality possessing moral validity. The reason that we never hear the term " heterosexual lifestyle " is because there is no need to categorize heterosexuality with such descriptively inherent connotative oversimplification in order to subconsciously justify contempt and hatred through subjective ( and, therefore, contextually unfair and invalid) comparison. While such complex reality is certain to come with a threat to the subjectively comparative sense of moral superiority of many, such is the cost of growth demanded by truth.
woo Born This Way is such a bop
Good points, but in many cases there is an understanding by well meaning people that gays are just heterosexuals who, to be different, defiant or "evil" choose to have sex with the same sex. There is a bases to care about and fight back against this concept. Saying "I was born this way", may not be clinically correct, but it is understood by non clinical people.
Hi John, I admire your mind! Thank you! Shaun
Thank!! You!!
Not that I disagree with the points made, but naturally it can be important to know the answer to this question for scientific or medical purposes
This was very enlightening. I felt one thing was left out though, a reason why the "choice" argument is such a big deal, at least to religious folk. You see, its easy to notice that all sins...involve choice. You cannot sin if there was no choice involved. If a person is completely mentally retarded or handicapped and does something wrong, their behavior might exhibit something sinful but because they lacked capability of making a choice in their mind...i doubt that sin is held against them
So you are putting homosexuality on the same level as mental retardation?
the only problem with this idea is this; it somewhat perpetuates the idea that somehow, gay culture creates gay people, and that if you allow your kids to see gay people when they're young that'll influence their sexuality.which, to put it scientifically, is bullshit. But that aside, I wholeheartedly agree that the two questions of 'was i born with it' and 'is it something i can change' are vastly different and the one we should focus on is that it can't be changed, much like, as you said speaking one language or another. But I'd certainly be interested on hearing what you have to say on the matter of influencing people's sexualities when they're young.
In the UK Mrs Thatcher brought in a law against 'promoting homosexuality in schools'. It had the effect of promoting homophobic bullying in schools, by pupils and teachers alike.
At that time all I knew about 'queers' was that they were the guys we laughed at in Carry-On films; I din't know anybody like that and certainly didn't consider that I behaved like that. Yet some preacher had, I later found out, warned his flock that I was "disgusting" and anyone who associated with me was told exactly that. I still don't know how that came about as I'd never had any kind of sexual encounter, but it was just decided. One christian boy was even removed from my school because I said I liked him (he was the only person I knew who could play guitar).
I moved away, decided I was gay, but still found a church which accepted me. But after seven years of celibate membership, I found my friends who got married didn't want me around as soon as they had kids. On several visits after i left, I had my car vandalised by these kids, now grown up and presumably treating their peers with the same contempt I received at school.
It makes me wonder how much of my sexuality is tied up with the social rejection: did I become gay because I was labelled as such? or was I born this way? Like John says, I don't actually care. I did, but I consider seven years of faithful service anough and my false 'friends' can go spin!
differous01 -- And? What happened? How are you today?
suvariboy These days I'm just out-rage-eous! As Nietzsche said;
"Those things for which we find words are things we have already overcome." ('Skirmishes in a War With the Age' - No.26)
People do not 'become' gay. I was labelled as gay by haters before I even knew what the word even meant but I knew from the age of ten that I was attracted to the same gender just did not have a word for it.
I dont care either but i believe our sexuality is decided in our mother womb prior to our birth its just the same as some people are born right handed and some are born left handed and they are that way since birth. I bet that the next person you see who is left handed and you ask them when did they chose to be left handed and they will say i have always been left handed .
Having said that Rafael Nadal the world number 1 tennis player was born right handed and his Uncle Tony taught him from a young age to play left handed because of the tremendous advantage a left handed player has over the majority of right handed players
Bye the way i look at all your videos and enjoy them and you are absolutely correct that one can be a gay christian as i am
I'm currently doing my research paper about your Philosophy. You're amazing ❤️
It is brewing here: the future president of the United States. Gay is the center of his issues... He speaks in a linear mode with a perfect pitch of voice and A.I.-like facial geniality that makes his sophistry the most magical. His ventriloquist eloquence allows him to earn a fusing inter-narcissistic relationship with the media masses as he juggles with adolescently quick reasonings that imparts that feeling that translate the idea of someone finally saying exactly what we want to hear. Congratulations! This phenomenon is John Corvine. The theologian of transmediatic matrix! Who doesn't admire him anyway?
Hi John- I generally enjoy your work, but I take issue with a comment you make early on in this video- when you say (referring to the "hypothesis") "... it's usually set up as, 'what makes people gay?' which suggests that the default setting is that everyone is supposed to be straight..."
I don't see how it follows from asking "what makes people gay" that a default position is "straight." Would asking "what makes people tall?" suggest that the default position is short?
I like and agree with most of his videos, but I think this one isn't really worth arguing over. It's pretty obvious why some gay people insist that's how they were born and railing against them isn't particularly helpful. In my opinion, of course.
I don't think he was railing against them, just pointing out what's true. Right now people say they are born gay because that is an easier idea for non gay people to accept than saying "I don't know", but through education, saying "I don't know" should be perfectly valid, because it's the truth.
I think you've hit the ultimate nail on the head. But there are nails along the way that some of us must hammer before we can finally come to accept your words. You omit that some of us need to see our homosexuality as innate and immutable because it enervates the moral judgment of those from our Christian upbringing. I'm not suggesting you trivialize this, but for some of us it is our life's most serious question. And, for some among those, it remains life's biggest question until the end.
I think / believe biology has everything to do with it but NOT a specific 'gay gene'. Its about complex biological developmental "crossroads and pathways". Once a group of cells start down a specific developmental pathway, specific genetically dictated things follow in that developmental pathway. Looking for a 'gay gene' is like barking up the wrong tree. Sexual orientation NOT a chosen lifestyle. Which explains why people don't get up in the morning and say, "Hmmm, I think I'll be gay today."
Total agreement here!
Lifestyles are chosen!
Hope you've got a long time to wait.
wow no one's ever put it that way! I thought I heard it all.
My question was regarding a claim that Dr. Corvino made, which was, in effect, that asking what makes people gay implies that the default position is straight. Your response was that in order to propagate itself, a species which breeds sexually must have "straight" as the default position. But my concern was in asking how "what makes people gay" implies a straight default- it didn't really bring in biology at all. Your response solely focused on biology, so it seemed limited to that assumption.
He's not saying that at all. Have you even watched the video? And given that his whole point is that "It doesn't matter", I don't see how the hell is he anti-himself.
Absolutely positively I am bisexual and I know it oh yeah I don’t go on around announcing it but I know it that’s all there is to it genetics 101 that’s it oh yeah
Indeed.
I've just discovered your page and love the things you're saying. . . or maybe I should say, the "Lessons" you are offering others in the LGBT community -- bullet points they all need to know and why. Maybe you should do a school campus tour or at least do "stand-up" at PRIDE celebrations across the country in order to enlightened folks.
My assumption only says that sexual intimacy is the only possibility for species propagation in earlier times. Please explain in what way my statement alluded to "only function of sexual intimacy is to propagate the species." I am sure this two way streets do not cross in any way.
"I was born this way" really isn't a valid defense is it. Any murderer could say that. It's just that after the social revolution of the last 200 hundred years we've had a shift from the entirely voluntaristic "I did this out of my own evil nature", to the deterministic "I did this because of the nature of my biology and society". The "I was born this way" plays on the deterministic argument. It's like a cry for mercy because we can't help it. As if we are like those people born without limbs. What frustrates the desire to give healthy acceptable forms of expression to gay affection is that we are out-numbered, and straights are very very solipsistic (self-centred). What oppresses gays is straight intolerance. Also, gays grow up identifying with straight types (likes divas etc.) so by getting a sense of cultural inclusion, gays become, to a large extent, self-alienated. Also, gays come from straight families, generally, so they have an innate fear themselves of gay social structures.
Okay, I agree with you on most things, but comparing homosexuality with murder, even in this context makes no sense to me. Murderer freaking murdered someone, gay person is just gay. Being gay and having homosexual relationships doesn't hurt anyone anymore than it does with straight people.
The "born this way" argument is merely a response to those that say that being gay is a choice. If that's their only reason for bigotry, then I'd say it's a valid defence.
Of course, to biologically propagate, one needs male/female sex cells to merge. But propagation is not the sole purpose of sexual interaction. You're assuming that the only function of sexual intimacy is to propagate the species- clearly it is not.
I agree with everything he said in the video (and all others as well, by the way), but understanding sexual orientation and gender identity at a biological level have contributed to the acceptance and inclusion of the LGBT+ community more easily, given the societal context in which we live, plagued with unfounded myths and unjustified discrimination.
St. Matthew 19:12 "For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.”
The most obvious thing Jesus said about non-conforming people that no one ever talks about... that last line is the one that really shakes the foundations of people's assumptions... "A lot of you won't get this, but to the ones I am talking to, you will know who you are."
I just googled your age - your 44? Wtfffff?? I thought you were 28.
Great words. You'd look even more awesome in some narrow ties.
for a person who believes in freedom, i do not think your deductive argument or the statement "i do not care" is quiet ignorant thing to say.Let me tell you why:
She had to make a strong statement about the current north american belief system in which it only fosters those with certain looks and backgrounds are accepted to act or express certain things and others are often regarded as social deviance. So,its like she wants to say "its ok to be who you already are and do not have to feel guilty or shameful about being different." It is the underlying message that she puts out for her fans...(I'm not really a fan of her, but i always keep my mind open to anything or reaction generated by her or fans, which i surmounts to be pretty powerful social force since she is the most popular entertainer now )
However, personally, like you, i neither believe that i am "born this way" nor do i really care about it, but it is such a sense of freedom that you choose to feel about your self-being, not to prove your identity to others. But the reality is as simple as your argument against the set gene that there are so many teenagers and people who have experienced terrible things to a point of suicide and no amounts of biological facts can make them feel good about themselves....
Awesome video John. At the end of the video you looked a lot like a blonde Weird Al.
I wish people would use the word heterosexual instead of using the word straight. The term straight came about because people thought homosexuality was something wrong and that heterosexuality was something correct, and so the term straight was coined with heterosexuals and not straight for everything else.
Agree
Finally someone that understands that belief, knowledge and values aren't decided by choice.
Which is kinda sad really, because as a heterosexual that's sexually abstinent, I'd prefer if I was asexual. D:
You expressed what I was thinking myself perfectly. I'm sure some people were just born with rainbow's flying out of they're butt-holes, but I have a hard time accepting every gay/lesbian was BORN the way that they are. I feel more like I was presented with an equal choice between the two and after time and experience, fell into what I like better. Whether that is a conscious choice or not, shouldn't matter.
Is this guy for real? There are sooooo many fallacies in his argument. He is suggesting that a "gay" person can become “straight” via environment and a straight person can become gay via the same. He also is saying that “morality” is more important that facts or the pursuit of them. He is anti-gay in sheep’s clothing.
This is the third video I have watched by John. The first two were completely incoherent rants (the video about the "slipper slope argument" as well as the video "is homosexuality natural").
This video was completely logical and rational. I'm pleased and surprised. When people claim that homosexuality is "genetic", they never follow up with some manner of "therefore" statement. They just merely assert this and do not explain in any way how this relates to "morality" or how this proves it is in any way "equal" to the arrangement of heterosexual marriage and family.
Just because something is "natural" or if you are "born that way" does nothing to prove that we are obligated to view it as "equal" or "acceptable" or any such thing. This is the age old "is/ought fallacy". Other things that may be genetic include diabetes, schizophrenia, violent tendencies (as John points out), heart conditions, men wanting to sleep with many women other than their wife etc etc. Telling me that anything is "genetic" does absolutely nothing to tell me if it is "equal" to some other condition, if I ought to view it as "moral" or if it has any benefit to society what so ever.
I tend to see homosexuality as being comparable to a porn addiction or wanting to sleep with as many women as possible. They are degenerate desires that certainly are in no "equal" in any sense of the word to traditional marriage and family.
+Matt M Grow ups call it "love" :-)
+Matt M That was a dangerous analogy. You still need to prove that homosexuality is morally adverse like porn addiction or adultery. It may not be the same as traditional marriage but there are still people affirming its virtue-supported ideals of love, union and commitment.
+Matt M
Labeling something as being *"completely incoherent rants"* with no facts, is nothing more than an opinion based on no facts whatsoever. Come back when you have some facts to prove your rant.
I do agree with you to a certain degree ,I don't care who you love !But I have to say this is America were our freedoms are supposed to be equal ,God says man to man sex is wrong a sin, I'll let God be the judge on that one
Holy marriage that God ordained is man & woman , not man & man
Born this way ? or Created that way huge difference.
THis questions to me almost always is only remotely relevant when used in the meaning of an unchanging trait. We as a society tend to be quite giving to those that have an unchanging trait. Psychotic people who kill or act upon their condition tend to have the law quite lenient agains them. People with disabilities' close parking space, dog-walkers, pregnant women's day offs, However, if they could simply change their condition, none of the 'benefits' would apply or even be considered.
The question about what "causes" homosexuality from a scientific perspective is interesting, as is what causes ANYTHING to be, but yeah from a moral standpoint, it is completely irrelevant.
I've never liked how helplessness is used as a reason to accept gay people as if, were we given the choice, everyone would choose to be straight. Not! To me it represents the wrong arguments. Lots of things people do are wrong and totally natural, so nature is immaterial to the moral implications of an action. I personally take John's stance. I don't care whether or not it's in my genes. If someone thinks I'm a sinner that's their right. It's my right to believe their religion is full of shit.
I've long said, "who cares if it *is* a choice? In the US, we're guaranteed the right to the pursuit of happiness. If my happiness comes with another woman, or a non-binary person, what does that matter?"
Well I'm going to tell you something I was Born this Way. You don't choose to born a girl or a boy black white gay or straight you don't choose you just born this way.
It isn't known, it is rumored to do it and it's stupid rumor.
3:10
John, if were not so cute, I would probably be listening to what you were saying
I am gonna have to agree here, some skinny ties would look good on you.
Being gay is okay. Being straight is okay. Being transgendered is okay. Being asexual is okay. Being polyamorous is okay. Being bisexual is okay. Self-identifying however the fuck one wants is okay. Why do we need to complicate it?
Over simplified.
Born that way "You must be born again" said Jesus
I´m want to give like to this video, but it has ecaxtly 666 likes right now, and that´s sooooooo cool that just can´t destroy that perfectly delicious irony xD
I'm getting to the point where I only watch these videos to see the last ten seconds. Pathetic, I know.
how do we get it ride of it gay people.
yes, how do we get rid of bigots and homophobes is what I am wondering.
John just please don't ruin this song for me atleast may be we can take this phrase a little less literally. 😢
A humble request for the sake of protecting one of the greatest gay anthems of all time....🏳️🌈😆
If a species must breed to propagate itself, the default setting must be straight, or else. This fact also shows that gay people come from straight people (you don't see straight people popping out from lesbians). So just by the timeline of how this progressed, straight must be the default, by definition.
OK SO IF A CHILD MOLESTER IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR WHO HE IS ATTRACTED TO SHOULD WE JUST ACCEPT HIM OR HER ??? He can't help it right, let me guess he has to control it because its against the law, his love to him is above any law dont ask him to be something hes not accept him lbgtq
Born this way is blaming God that Satan started this lie. Dear John you talk a lot of knowledge but have no wisdom how to apply knowledge. We should never trust our feeling's but trust Jesus alone.
The big lie that Satan toled was that gay people choose their sexuality. Before something can be seen as being wrong it first must be seen as being chosen, and, therefore subconsciously worthy of contempt and hatred through subjective ( and, therefore, contextually unfair and invalid) comparison.
its not to late..you can still be forgiven....stop acting
JESUS CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SIN that isn't something to mock. If you can't have to do so, keep in mind that one day you will stand before him to answer for it and every other sin you refused to accept his forgiveness for...
I don't give a shit about old JC being crucified for the sake of our 'sins'. I'd rather have to answer to my fellow humans that I have hurt if I were to sin rather than some deity that I don't know for certain exists. I'd rather be responsible for my own actions.
P.S. I think Jesus (as far as I know) was a decent guy for the most part.
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, oh dear! I, and millions of others think you're quite wrong!!!