The TRUTH About Why The Dodge Hornet Failed On The TFL Slip Test
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- Опубликовано: 30 май 2024
- ( www.alltfl.com/ ) Check out our new spot to find ALL our content, from news to videos and our podcasts! Three months ago, the 2023 Dodge Hornet suffered a spectacular failure in TFL's long-running slip test. Now, in this follow-up, Tommy follows up on the full story of what went wrong, even taking a trip out to Michigan with Dodge's engineering team to get to the root of the issue.
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#dodge #car #review
TIMESTAMPS:
0:00 Intro/Recap of the original test
1:01 Chatting with the engineers
1:52 Going more in-depth on the issue
3:39 Slip test rematch...and results!
10:05 Running the slip test in a rival SUV: Mazda CX-5
13:38 Addressing real-world scenarios/critiques of slip test methodology
19:07 Wrap-up 
Авто/Мото
Everyone should be proud of the level of transparency of all parties involved. Great job Dodge and TFL.
**Subaru PR team shakes in their boots**
@@chrisss73841 yeah right this thing is trash, Subaru has nothing to worry about lmao
@@user-tg8do2kr4v facts
@@user-tg8do2kr4v reference to the fact that Subaru won't provide cars to TFL because they weren't happy with a review. Chrysler went out of their way to explain the result to the viewers.
I think it would be great for the TFL team do this test to all vehicles. Maybe not to a PR unit. But grab a rental unit, borrowed or donated vehicle.
I also think it's great that DODGE explained why this is happening and a dealership can't screw you over by saying you need to replace the brake sensor for $3,400.99....example.
Much respect to Dodge for replicating Tommy's test and rectifying their issue. Much respect to Tommy for not compromising on his results while 3 FCA ppl stood in the background lol
They didn't rectify the issue. Dodge said it was supposed to break down on him, that it wasn't an error. Dodge justified it by saying that other cars do the same thing due to EU laws.
Yeah, they certainly didn’t rectify anything. And they didn’t address perhaps the most important question is how to rectify it when you’re stuck in a snowbank without cell service in limp home mode.
Yeah that’s why other suvs that have done this test and are sold in the EU don’t do it..... not crap programming
So my wife would be stranded (afraid to break it) but I’d make it home (care, but I come first). I appreciate the transparency for sure but am not sure this is helpful for many. Not sure I’d want my wife to give it the beans because I’d rather she be safe. Total catch 22 thanks to creating an algorithm to satisfy a governmental regulation…and not just in a Dodge.
@@scottgabbard662I think the point of Stellantis is that you’ll never actually encounter this scenario in the real world.
This is why I love TFL. They’re not lying, and let the experts and the brands the space to explain the situation. Very transparent channels.
Honestly this test is stupid.
My respect for dodge just went up, instead of hiding it’s so refreshing to be transparent and actually try to solve the “issue”
I'm sure this would have been a very different video if this had been an actual engineering failure instead of something they could blame on regulations.
It’s no longer Dodge. Chrysler corporation is now owned by FIAT.
Except they didn’t solve the issue. The vehicle will still throw those codes in certain limited traction situations, and there will be people who will stop trying to drive when the dashboard lights up like that. Since this is mostly a winter driving issue, you’re talking about someone stuck in freezing weather with a vehicle they think has broken down. If they’re on a back road during a snow storm, they might be stuck there for quite a while. It’s possible another vehicle could hit them if they are stopped around a blind turn. It’s possible the driver gets out and tries to walk in a snow storm to try to find help. It puts the driver and passengers in a dangerous situation that they don’t need to be in if the engineers figured a better way to determine a faulty sensor vs icy roads. At minimum they could put a warning message to accompany the others to say to cycle the key and try driving again using more throttle if you got stuck and got this message.
@@stephen3164 What do you expect from a FIAT owned and manufactured vehicle?
Haha they new this was a problem just werent expecting someone to make a video about it so fast they will do nothing to fix it and will be like every other new car these days and have tons of recalls
It's pretty cool that Dodge went to these lengths to find what happened and not just send a generic email! The moral of the story is that Dodges want you to use more throttle, lol.
It’s not cool this called damage control. They had to do something for this PR disaster.
Thanks for the clarification, I had no clue after watching this video what Dodge was trying to do here. 😮
@khakiswag being that Dodge engineers were able to duplicate it on other manufacturers vehicles but this was the first time Tommy had seen it shows the slightest inconsistencies with TFLs tests.
I agree, but I'm not sure they went far enough (at least publicly). After evaluating their vehicle (and others) and discovering that the issue is repeatable, was the next step not to question why Euro-market software is embedded in NA-market componentry, and paths for remediation? Did that process occur, but just not publicly? Or did they determine "it's not our fault" and just skip to vindicating themselves?
Good thing is that Tommy will be finally using throttle during the tests 😉
I remember seeing the first video and thinking that dodge really dropped the ball, I'm surprised and glad the engineers stepped in to explain the what and why.
So what seemed like a simple software reflash made you think they dropped the ball? gee, don’t touch A N Y modern car then as ALLL Cars have Dashes that light up the same way. A quick look at accord forums proves this.
@@Natethegreat200c so u watched the first video and automatically knew it was a software crash, if so how is auto repair business going? Clearly with "over the air" diagnostic ability you must have you own 10-20 shops? Or maybe I'm commenting on how the first was a fumble, and it was cool how stellantis sorted it out.
Same because I was really rooting for the Hornet. I wanted one myself, and when I saw that, I was like, never mind. Unfortunately, I already bought a different vehicle 😭
@@matthewholzmueller6292he probably works for the company 😂
@@matthewholzmueller6292 I don’t need a single shop to see what’s obvious. You must don’t own a modern car. Across Honda , Toyota , Chrysler ford ETC Facebook groups and forums when a dash is lit
Up like this , 99.9999% of time it’s just a simple reflash. What else could be wrong? You hardly ever ever hear about car computers going out anymore because they need to be strong to run all the Bs on the interior. It’s 2+2 that this was a software thing and guess what?? It was😂. Use your head babe.
This is the kind of relationship we expect and respect between auto-journalists and carmakers.
Not a Dodge guy, but respect to Dodge for how they handled this situation. Very enjoyable video. Going forward when testing vehicles on the slip test, I wonder if hooking up an OBD-II scanner to the vehicle could be used to monitor the throttle percentage. Thanks for all the great videos Tommy and the TFL team!
They have my respect.
It’s incredible how different is this reaction vs Subarus’ reaction.
that's because it's just a fiat
Same here, I wouldn't touch a Dodge or any Stellantis vehicle ever, but I love to see that level of transparency. ggwp Stellantis.
Kudos to Chrysler for letting someone technical be filmed and explain it. A lot of companies' PR departments would have thought it too risky.
Yeah exactly! Technical people run the risk of being 'too honest'
And then they didn’t fix it
This level of transparency is totally unexpected and appreciated. Really cool to see the Lead Dev Eng talk to the issue personally. Just Great!
I am not a Dodge guy, but HUGE kudos to them for taking ownership of this issue and being transparent, and hats off to the TFL team for their reporting. THIS is what the industry needs more of!
I don’t usually comment on videos, but I give kudos to Dodge for doing this. They explained the cause and proved that their vehicle can do it. Great job TFL team for your professionalism.
Props to dodge for actually dissecting the issue and stepping up. I found this whole situation very interesting and learnt something new!
There still a shitty car company
Some manager went crazy and allowed a lot of hours to be burned, just to avoid bad press. Seems like it was in escalation mode for the engineers too. But I love the enthusiasm of the engineers. You can see he is genuinely proud of what he and his team found and loves to teach others. My job is similar and I always try and be as open as possible with our clients (and suppliers) too. But we also need to find of the bigger picture and be careful to not leak anything.
I am proud to say I work for Brian and can confirm how good of a boss he is. His passion trickles down into the team and truly is a great leader.
They need to make an easy reset button, and an override would be good too. I see lots of modern electronic awd and traction control systems completely disable a vehicle that could still get itself out if it just allowed more or less wheel speed.
I have a huge issue with this on a slippery surface like ice going up a hill light throttle is always applied. This could be a huge safety issue. If it turns off all wheel drive you are basically screwed for a lack of a better term. Awesome reporting as usual.
In real life, it is very unlikely that one wheel will have full grip for an extended period of time while three wheels are on ice. It would be a lot more variable, leaving a very slim margin for conditions to trigger the fault.
@@SlowDriverSean The solution would be to find out how often these errors happen irl and investigate further
ever heard of spring or fall very often parts of roads are ice free and some full of shiny ice
while usualy its on one side of the car or the other its not uncommon for it to be patchy and random
@@insiainutorrt259 I bet they do have the data already. If this programming is in all AWD cars in Europe (and any cars that follow that standard), and this problem isn't popping up every day all over the place, I imagine the parameters are set properly for the general public.
@SlowDriverSean have you ever driven in real winter conditions? Lol
@@eins2001 lol. Yes. every winter! I purposely go out in every winter storm to drive. Ive had about a dozen cars over the last decade. FWD, RWD, AWD, not one has thrown a code while driving in low traction conditions.
Thank you, Dodge, for not only addressing the issue but also going above and beyond to describe the exact issue and do your own test. I just bought a 300 and this was cool to see from the company.
What an amazing opportunity. It's great to see an auto manufacturer take that responsibility and then bring you in to pass along all the info.
Maybe I missed it but if the parade of faults displays for an owner, how can they clear them shy of going to a dealership's service department or carrying an OBDII reader and diagnostic phone app? Yes, Dodge did give the reason for the fault but that won't help someone stranded somewhere.
Exactly. That's what I was wondering as well. I'm certain I would encounter this on my icy driveway in winter. How do I clear the error?
As shty as this would be in heavy snow storm, you usually have to disconnect the battery's hot lead , which can clear it,, but from what I've read and seen not always ,, bottom line is they need to install a way out of this (like you hit the brake 10 times while the engine is off but battery is on )or at the very minimum a clear message to the driver that states if you are stuck in ice/snow this may be a sensor fault ,,,, but my guess is this won't happen because Jeep has for decades had this extra slush fund to pay off people that have been hurt in wrangler roll overs then just stop selling a dangerous vehicle 🤦♂️🤷 because they make way more than they lose in the tons of lawsuits they get each year 😢
@gfdia35 if it's similar to these new dodges rhe battery is hidden in the driver side fender area.
Shout out to the Chrysler employees who had to stand out there and reposition the rollers after every test. We see you!
I bet Tommy wishes he had a similar crew lol...I'm sure it gets really tedious after a while when trying to test a particular vehicle over and over.
Great Video Tommy! It's always good to hear from the engineers about the systems and why they are designed the way they are. Very interesting that the same circumstance gets the same result in other manufacturers cars. Keep up the good work!
Finally some information out of the locked down silos of car engineers.
This was very informative and very useful, and as a software developer I always argue with people saying there are too many electronics on the car. While in reality if you know how they work and what the logic behind them is, it makes sense.
Even more when people complain because the car was not "smart enough" to prevent a crash because there was a possible faulty sensor.
Just image what will people say if there is wheel speed sensor faulty, than ABS and stability control off because cannot work without that data, but the car performances would not be reduced.
No.
Give me the minimum on modules and sensors. The dam thing become an oversized paperweight because of "maybe a little fault in system X detected" does not make sense.
I thought my MY14 WK2 was "too fancy." Not even.
Literally speed cable got severed. The thing didn't go "I'm hurt" ---*beach itself.
On this thing, it thinks it has a problem, EVERY SYSTEM that needs its data complains, if the thing wants to even move anymore.
No! It is to much, and all for the sake of the basic, brainless folk plaguing the world.
No, no it dosent, all my car should ever be doing for me is pumping my brakes.
Absolutely no. I want to ALWAYS be in control of my car 100% of the time with the sole exception of ABS. I don't want a computer kicking in and taking my control away, I don't want a computer having a hardware or software problem and being able to send my car into a wall, and I don't want MASSIVELY EXPENSIVE repairs of said systems that only the dealership is able to do.
As a software developer I want my car to be dumb as rocks just like everything else I own.
The trouble is people have been taught over years to be very gentle on the throttle in slippery conditions. So people will just drive how they would and then a fault happens. That code set criteria is not good enough.
If it becomes a greater problem all they have to do is change the perameter in the module man. Theycsay they already do to stop it from triggering like that on vehicles thwt spin their wheels more often, like jeeps
I'm glad I finally found someone else who has the same issue with their reasoning. I've always learned to use minimal throttle in low-grip conditions. Obviously, you have times where you need more, but the general response when faced with traction limitations is to minimize all inputs to reduce slip.
And I don't think this is an uncommon practice at all. I think it's how most people are taught to deal with situations like that.
Now, granted, it's sort of specific parameters, here, but this is a fault that can potentially be triggered in the real world. And if it does get triggered, it can leave someone stranded, because their car doesn't want to reengage TCS and AWD.
I don't blame Dodge, Chrysler, or even FCA on this one (for once), because this is a mandated standard that all manufacturers selling in Europe have to follow. I do, however, think this standard needs to be reevaluated.
gentle is one thing but it takes INSANE ability to be THAT gentle on the throttle. you would be surprised as a percentage (seen by the ECU) how heavy footed people are.
The parameters are set to identify a possible fault in one of the sensors while the vehicle is moving. That is done to not activate ABS or traction control when there is no data from one wheel, that could potentially cause a crash of the car is the systems are activated.
The car performances are reduced because they want to limit driver input so that driver is less likely to crash.
Going slow on the throttle wouldn’t trigger it unless one wheel was moving significantly slower than the others. You’d be hard pressed to achieve that in real life because every surface has some friction even ice has more friction than a roller.
Thank you, TFL and Dodge. For making this video possible. It was great to hear from the engineers perspective. And I'm so happy that Dodge invited you to come and test out the theories on their testing grounds. Great video.
Plus, I also own a white 2023 Dodge Hornet GT with the Track Pack. So I definitely wanted to know more about this situation with the Hornet. I love my Dodge Hornet GT. I do wish it had foglights on it, though.
I’m not even gonna lie after seeing that suv fail the first time I immediately crossed it off the list of purchases, the wife was considering one to go with our GWS3…. This video restored some faith back into it
Your first reaction was probably correct, haha. The Mazda sure looks nice though. Think about the Dodge is that even if it does turn out to be a decent vehicle, the resale is going to be horrendous.
You should probably stick to your first reaction. On ice you're supposed to be light on the throttle, and crawl rather than gunning it, and breaking traction.
This is hilarious. That's true engineer right there. I do this everyday. There are lightballs if someone triggers an error you thought no one will ever reach. In my opinion this is a bug they need to fix.
they cant its based on European regulation, but there should be a easier way to un-trip it.
@@yoppindia Funny how they sell BMW's and Audi's to the EU, and they don't have this problem.
@@yoppindia The sensors are based on European regulations but they could fix the sensor logic so that it wouldn't trigger all the additional sensors and deactivate the AWD but that would require a big investment to fix.
@@PlayWaves1 tell that to penny pinchers at accounts department.
I've put around 1400 miles on my red Hornet GT w/ Track Pack and it's been pretty fun so far for the 2 months I've had it. No real issues at this point, but I did go ahead and get an extended warranty from the dealer (since it's a new model and it's dodge/alfa reliability blah blah blah).
There are a couple of quirks like the forward collision sensors disengaging whenever it's raining decently hard. Also, sometimes (~5%) the Uconnect head unit will glitch and be missing some of my customizations but it always returns to my saved configuration the next time I start up the car.
Overall, I love driving this car and it does get a fair amount of attention on the road. The red paint with the track pack really pops and people are always trying to get my attention haha. I've had some fun against a variety of cars from a C5 Corvette to a BMW x1. One of my friends jokes that it's a budget Porsche Macan and to be honest it probably is but for roughly half the price and only slightly worse performance (6.1s vs 5.6s 0-60, per MotorTrend), that's actually fine with me. To be clear though, I don't go out of my way to race or anything. I got this car because I just wanted a zippy car with AWD and lots of ground clearance and it's a brand I'm familiar with (previous car, 2000 Dodge Durango w/ 196k miles). Time will tell how the Hornet holds up in northern Indiana snow but I'm confident as long as I don't drive like a dumbass it should be fine.
I don’t normally comment on videos but this was very cool of both the Hornet team and TFL. Amazing that the manufacturer actually is interested in these videos and furthermore want to participate in explaining the situation and want to find out what the issue was. This is why I subscribe to all of TFL’s channels and chose my RAV4 TRD off road based on info from the TFL team. Really impressed.
Great video. In my opinion one of TFL's best. As an engineer myself, I appreciated having someone who understood engineering and was not a salesman.
I very much agree. One of the best I have seen. Great job on both sides. 👍
This was an awesome video! For a major manufacturer to step up and bring the exact vehicle in for testing and bring TFL in to be able to explain the situation and prove it is pretty amazing. Well done to TFL and Stelantis
5:47 They both overlooked this warning message and amber dash light. So the Hornet was about to display the same faults, but he gave it more throttle before any more appeared.
The message says "Slide distance warning unavailable. Service required" and that amber light is an A with a circle almost all the way around it with an "!" exclamation mark.
This was great that Chrysler did this. They are like “Look, our car isn’t trash. Others on this too.” To their credit, this great they did this. This made me like this vehicle again.
Don't be fooled it's a pile of trash...
Lol, I'm sure this vehicle is still trash, but at least not in that way.
@trailrunnah8886 nah its trash in that way too. They just found other cars that are also trash so their car looks less trash. This isn't how a car should act in a high slip situation where the driver is attempting to crawl out of the patch of ice they're on.
One of the best and most informative videos to date. Good on Dodge for taking the time and due diligence to explain and demonstrate
This seems like a perfect result for everyone. I think it's impressive how the Stellantis Engineers made such an effort to explain what was happening and why it happened. I guess this may also influece the future of the TFL slip test proceedures now that you are better informaed about how the systems are designed and what they are expecting. I'm interested to know if the vehicle manual explaines how to best use the traction control in high slip conditions, if it says USE FULL THOTTLE then the TFL Slip test should use what the manual says. If the manual says nothing about this then anything goes.
It also applies when they are walking those cars upon rocks or trees, momentum(read throttle position) is everything and they allow them to get stuck halfway up not applying enough throttle.
You should never come close to full throttle in a slip condition. You should be around 14%, and crawl the car so you don't break traction. This a major issue.
The Coefficient of Static friction is always greater than the kinetic friction (why ABS works better). I can see where someone would try to ease their way out of a three wheel slip situation with light throttle to try and maintain static friction.
most every slight uphill with winter and ice.... done it myself many times tho only with fwd and rwd cars...
Raised in Canada and you learn that the best way out of being stuck in icy ruts is to gently ease on the throttle so the one wheel that has traction doesn't start spinning. Only idiots step on it hard and end up in deeper ruts. I guess they made a car for idiots 😄
Ok. Tommy does light throttle with the majority of the vehicles he tests on rollers. I think the reason is that at higher throttle the vehicles begin to slip sideways and come off the rollers. So why hasn’t the issue happen before with all the vehicles he’s tested! The other bs I see is why are only two rear tires on elevated rollers and not the front the way Tommy does it. Dodge is intentionally dipping the car forward to allow more traction on the front wheel/tire making it seem like their car can easily come off the rollers with good traction management 😏
I was scanning the comments to see if someone else noticed the irregularities between Tommy's test, and Dodge's. It's the first thing I noticed.
The decline puts more force on the front tires.
Exactly, this comment must be pinned, too many comments saying “kudos to dodge” like if it wasn’t a HUGE PR problem that you could have a car throwing all this errors and labeling the product as a bad one. They designed their own test and is different from the conditions when Tommy had the issue with the hornet and I see it like poor taste bringing another brand to their very own created conditions in order to prove that their car isn’t the issue, after TFL having all this years running the same test for other brands I find this explanation very disappointing, additionally how they reset the lights? Would be interesting if Mazda has a saying addressing what the dodge engineer said.
Kudos to Chrysler. A really stand up thing to do bringing TFL out to chat and demonstrate. And Kudos to TFL for demonstrating this feature consistently throughout makes and models. Really good stuff.
They kinda have to......from a PR perspective this is a nightmare for a car company considering other manufacturers dont have these problems.
@@441meatloaf They literally proved in the video that other manufacturers have these problems because it's a failure in an EU regulation that is hard encoded into the software.
@@SeaGLGaming The only thing they proved is the only other vehicle they showed was a Mazda.
But TFL tests in other mazda proved its inconsistent considering in the same roller tests on the hornet, no other vehicle and mazdas ever faced the same full system shutdown. All other vehicles only triggers the traction warning system.
So i highly disagree with dodge. Also dodge said their vehicle had this issue and it was a known problem waiting to be fixed. Ergo its not EU regulation.
EU regulation is similar to US regulation and a lot of US vehicles uses the same modules supplied likely by Bosch. All germans uses the same bosch modules and if truly is EU issue we would see this being a lot of more of a known problem when EU third parties does the same independent tests.
But literally no one is having this problem other than dodge itself.
@@SeaGLGaming I know Subaru uses the same module as Mazda.....if its true then TFL rigorous hate testing on subaru AWD system would easily has shown this problem. But none of the subarus TFL tested ever triggered it nor did the germans they test ever triggered it either.
I call this inconvenience evidence that so happen dodge bring a mazda and triggered the problem.
@441meatloaf you're forgetting this is a European vehicle, not a dodge
Yeah, mad respect to Dodge for addressing and explaining it head-on.
Love Dodge's commitment to make it right and the transparency of the channel.
I was very impressed with your rollers test right when you started doing it, and asked myself how come no one else is doing it (at least not publishing the results). the fact that it helped car manufacturer validate their sensor management software just demonstrates how good these test are. Great content.
We are doing roller tests for years...
The icing on the cake was demonstrating that this is not just an issue with Dodge. Putting the Mazda CX-5 on the rollers and replicating the faults was the knockout punch. Great video! Everyone here learned something.
But why is it in other tests outside of TFL and evend in TFLs own test no no other vehilce triggered the fault? I call BS on the test on the mazda.
@@441meatloafI do too
@@441meatloaf You are making the claim that Dodge sabotaged a Mazda CX-5, thats a bold claim and would be a massive lawsuit if that were true.
Really cool video Tommy. I was wondering how this was going to work out. Having Stellantis host you and walk through all the details was both refreshing and insightful. Kudos to them for not only not shying away from the issue, but really taking the time to walk us through all the minutia and allowing us to understand how and why their product performs the way it does.
Keep up the slip test videos, they're the best.
They had to do something. This is going to kill sales of their crappy little car for sure. Judging by the onslaught of lemmings that are satisfied with the response, its working. But I wouldn't want my loved one behind the wheel of a car where all the safety systems get conked out right when they are needed the most.
Excellent work, Tommy -- and everyone else involved. We all learned from this experience, and we appreciate you "bringing us along."
Kudos to Dodge for doing all this investigation and the TFL team for the trip to MI and demonstration.
So the TLDR version is that the Brake System Fault Module & firmware is supplied by a 3rd party vendor to many auto manufacturers. Any vehicle using the same module will throw the same errors on a roller test, but is extremely unlikely in real world use.
Not extremely unlikely, but fairly unlikely. Some people have already had it happen to them.
Interesting. During our tests we faced the opposite situation a few times. Under light throttle everything was fine, more throttle was causing the errors.
Sssssshhhhhhhh!
It is a certain the speed differential between wheels that trigger the error condition. In the video they had to slowly increase the speed to reach the trigger point, if they use the throttle too fast, than they cannot reèproduce it since the brakes start to brake the three spinning wheels.
If I remember well, under European Union rules, for speed lower than 15 km/h electronic stability control / ABS can be disengaged, but also the speed limit under which the sensor data are not considered of aceptable quality.
That was really dope of them to look into the issue you had a followup so thoroughly. I did think it was a wheel speed sensor issue but I had no idea about those specific parameters tripping a fault. Great info to have. Big thanks to TFL and Dodge
Very interesting, the wheel speed sensor fault trap does explain it. It must have been pure luck that you haven’t triggered this before.
I think the slip test is valuable because it takes ground and tyre differences out of the equation, it’s purely looking at AWD and traction control programming differences. I do think you need to get all four wheels to the same level though - maybe a ‘fake’ roller with a concrete slab instead of rollers?
Or maybe this is only a problem for dodge not other vehicles thar have better equipped and awd system...
@@441meatloaf They triggered the same error in a Mazda in the video. It’s an EEC rule, so it’s probably on everything by now.
@@aedwards123 but I find it weird considering in other tfl test on mazdas it didn't trigger it in their slip test nor did other Germans and Japanese they tested.
What I am considering is it could be something else in their programming that's triggering the fault rather than the braking module..
@@441meatloafI agree with you
I'm very impressed! I have owned mostly Mopars over many decades, and I've loved almost every one. This reassures me that even though they're called Stellantis now, they employ a whole lot of very competent people who love to do their jobs well. And they love cars, just like we do!
And they just explain away potentially serious issues instead of actually fixing them. That's the Mopar we know and love....
@@spazzman90it's a safety regulation that they're following and it's not just them, they clearly showed that in the video. When a manufacturer sells their products in different markets they make sure they adhere to all safety standards in all of those markets, they don't just make market specific products as oftentimes they all come from the same manufacturing plant. In Dodge's case they probably aren't selling it in Europe but this car is based on an Alfa Romeo so it makes sense why it did that.
I actually had this happen in our Hyundai palisade at one point. Ryan from Driving Sports TV had the same issue when he tested their car.
Thanks Stalantis for giving us this behind the scenes look and taking provable action. Between Tommy and Brad from TrailRecon, CPG employee's had some fun work days.
I have never been a fan of Dodge or FCA or Stellantis, but they ABSOLUTELY took the right approach in testing confirming and coming out to explain with relevant demenstrations.
Full Credit to them for acting with Integrity here.
A couple thoughts on this. Cool seeing dodge repeat a test and then invite you guys out to explain the issue and honestly expose the issue for a huge section of the auto industry that is affects, not just dodge. This also taught me how the awd systems work on these vehicles. At least the computer side of it anyway. More throttle wouldn't necessarily be my first idea, but knowing that can help in situations i may be in in the future. Last point, use the banks data monster gauge that andre uses for the ike. You can use it to view throttle percentage and a lot of other parameters that would be cool to see in these tests. Like it took this vehicle 20% throttle for the traction control to engage and get unstuck. Overall very cool video.
When I saw the first video my thought was some sort of fault that caused the software to crash. Really great to see all the work they put in to see what was happening.
Wow. This is really cool, and great journalism. Shout out to you all at TFl & Dodge to set the record straight.
Having had a Cherokee Trailhawk and taking it off road quite often, I learned really fast that Chrysler BLD system needs throttle to work properly. It’s a system of distributing power. You gotta give it power to distribute.
This whole experience doesn’t surprise me at all.
Same thing with Toyota ATRAC and the GM G80 differential. If you let off the gas, the system just isn't going to work correctly.
This is awesome automotive journalism! Kudos to Stellantis for the awesome transparency and thorough follow-up!
This was an informative vid. Perhaps this is the reason that some other manufacturers make their systems so overly aggressive?
What a great video! Great job TFL.
Tommy you do such a great job on these videos you're well prepared and I think you're ready for the next step.
I think taking the tires out of the equation shows the quality of the AWD system and programming. Cause otherwise they are telling you that you're locked into buying a specific series/brand of tire and an open spot where they could tell you that you must pay to fix a faulty speed sensor(or something else) because you didn't use their recommended tire
Interestingly, my motorcycle manufacturer recommends a few specific tires which I assume is related to the lean sensitive abs programming.
This is really cool education. Thanks Dodge and Tommy/TFL! As cars get more sophisticated the old techniques no longer apply. Instead of pumping the brakes, with antilock brakes just press, hard. With AWD traction control / anti-slip you don't gently feather the throttle but press it maybe 30%. (And we don't need to manually set spark advance and mixture any more either!)
That's just the issue though. There is no explanation why their system works better than the old way in this case. Simply that the old way won't work on this car. You saw the car on rollers where one wheel had perfect traction, and the others had none. You should see what happens when one wheel has ok traction the others have none, and you floor it breaking what traction that wheel had as well as the others because crawling no longer works. It's a stupid system.
That's really cool that they did this followup and explanation, but still proves to me that I won't ever own a Stellantis vehicle. This problem is also making me nervous about my GF's CX-3 AWD system. Apparently if she's stuck on snow/ice and is accidentally too gentle on the pedal, the car will put itself in limp mode, possibly leaving her stranded in a dangerous situation.
Super cool video. It was great to hear from Dodge to explain the issue in detail
Nice, good to know they cared to investigate this and figure it out.
Wonder if they can disable that functionality in offroad modes or smth, would be nice
Its a "safety" euro regulation thing so I doubt it. Im not a fan of new cars. What do you have to do to clear these codes I wonder?
So basically you can get this car to perform well on tests if you construct the tests very carefully to avoid the extremely easy-to-trigger failure.
did you miss the part of the video where they explained it's due to European regulations. and the same problem happened to other brands as well? it was a fairly large part of the video.. idiot.
Literally everyone here is saying "good job doge 🤓🤓"
Considering that the failure only occurred on rollers, and that most other auto companies would probably have just sent out a bland email in response, I think it’s good to give credit where credit’s due. (Also how was the test “constructed to avoid the failure?”)
It's the same test.
The TFL channels are the best channels on RUclips, period. Everyday there is quality educational content for me to watch on topics that I love! Way to go TFL, what a crew!
This was a very interesting video. I had the same thing happen in my 2022 Kia Sorento X-Line when I was stuck in the snow.
Props to Chrysler and TFL for a thorough investigation. Interesting and a relief that such an important new vehicle for Chrysler has a healthy stamp of approval.
Idk how you can call that a healthy stamp of approval. Basically all they said was that their system sucks, but it's EU mandated so they won't be changing it.
Good on Dodge for the investigation and explanation. The bottom line is that this is still not resolved, and there are a number of split mu / low traction situations that could trigger this - like being partly high centered on snow, sand, or a wet grassy ditch. At the very least it should have to meet the wheel speed delta and
Stop speaking sense, man! I can't believe all the fawning over this crappy company going on in these comments. This is absolutely unacceptable.
The ABS / ESC control module is programmed to check for a possible sensor failure. Without that data from sensor ESC or ABS cannot work properly and cause a crash while driving.
I don't think there will many circunstances in which one is on rollers, that equals in real life to have three wheels spinning at same speed and only one with differential speed of more than 15 km/h..
@@donkeymarco I know people who have triggered this in real life without the rollers. It's not just the rollers that cause this.
Thanks for the follow up Tommy !
Excellent work by TFL and Dodge both here, love to see it.
Great video, one question though is if we do get the errors how do we reset it, just a scanner with reset or is this a dealership trip? Also these folks don't seem to have experience in an ice storm where the surface can be this slick.
But is a very slick condition is very unlikely that You will not have only one tyre with a speed differential of mre than 15 km/h.
The "problem" is triggered by the software that checks for possible wheel speed sensor failure. Without data, or with "bad" data, from a wheel speed sensor ABS or ESC cannot work properly, better to say, can cause very dangerous consequenses if that system are activated.
@@donkeymarcothat seems to be more of a flaw in the system, and yes it's very possible this happens in real life. It's happened to people I know already.
How nice is it to see a manufacturer take the time to explain a fault rather than just brake out the generic excuses book. Really interesting to see the results.
My only question is does the system reset after turning the car on and off or once you start driving for a while and the car sees there’s no actual repetitive fault or does it need to be sent to the dealer to be reset?
Cheers Pat🇦🇺
Generic excuses? 'look, these other cars do it', 'look, its because of the EU', 'look, this will never happen in the real world'. Textbook canned responses right there to deflecting any blame where it truly lies.
Awesome Video happy Dodge is watching TFL and invited Tommy out to help us understand what happened.
I love that Dodge’s answer is “it’s not our problem all crossovers are trash too”, very good advice for the consumer 😂
Classic what-aboutism. "Yeah well, they have the same issue! It's tooootally fine!"
You must have given those guys a rough couple of weeks of sitting in meetings talking about this. It's nice that they responded with real reasons. It makes sense.
IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE for all your safety systems to go offline during what would be a normal driving situation! This is poor programming plain and simple. I mean, at least offer an override or something so the people aren't stuck out in inclement weather with no safety systems!
@@spazzman90 It makes sense that is because of government regulations, not that it happens.
Great video, but one question: Say you DO trigger this in the real world, what was the solution to clearing the fault?
Amen. That’s the exact question going through my head. Great, I get the explanation from the engineer. But if it “just tripped a code” and nothing was damaged, why can you not simply reset the code!? BS
Oh it's quite simple really. You just stop your car in the middle of the ice covered road it's on, you jump out grab your tools that you always have on you, take the fender off the drivers side, remove the negative terminal, wait a couple minutes, and reassemble it all.... repeat until you make it to your destination or get hit by a car because people are known for having an easy time stopping on ice.
I'm sure someone is going to say there is a release or something like that to disconnect the battery properly under the hood. I'm not sure. I don't buy trashy dodges where the battery is buried.
@@justinkaufman495 ok but that had me laughing hard hahah. But for real, you’re right!
@@itsjackkelly It's a good looking car but I'll take my 07 santa fe with bald tires and front wheel drive any iced over day of the week. At least I know what I'm getting into with that. The situation doesn't change randomly.
I think it would help to:
- Present a more meaningful error message to the driver
- Provide an override or reset function for it (to avoid the driver getting stranded)
Love when I see the "Woah, they were listening" moments
Definitely learned something today. But I wonder if a scared timid driver that gets stuck would be scared to spin wheels and have this situation happen to them and then freak them out.
I think you're spot on. What was missing from this video is the corrective action.
@@Stevemax07 From what I got out of the video, there isn't a good way to fix it because it's a default set of code baked in to the modules which is why it effects not only the Dodge Hornet, but also other competitor vehicles as well. What would be helpful is if ALL of the manufacturers came together a little and complained about this.
I guess maybe Dodge or any other manufacturer could fudge some code to help prevent it, but then you're possibly risking safety and I think any manufacturer would rather it light the dash up like a Christmas tree than risk the safety of its consumers, even if its for a false positive code fault.
Maybe You would like more to have an activation of ABS or ESC with faulty wheel speed sensor data ?
That software routine if there to mitigate the risk for a running car to crash due to faulty wheel speed sensor data, and consequent abnormal activation of §ABS and/or stability control.
Would have been nice to show what it takes to reset the system. If a simple power cycle will bring everything back, then probably not a huge deal. But if this requires a trip to a dealer, then I think Houston, we have a problem!
$139 to diagnose your check engine light.
I would think it’s like an abs issue. Usually when you turn it off and restart it and go over 5 mph it resets the abs issue if there isn’t one
Thanks Tommy for getting to the root cause of this issue. You always do such a great job testing vehicles!!
Thanks for another great video. It's great that Dodge came through.
I know that in the first video, you were able to clear most of the codes. But what was involved in clearing the rest of them? Does the average owner have access to being able to reset the computer or would that have required a dealer visit?
basically it's really a Alf Romeo ?
Thank you for the follow up. Was hoping you would get to it.
In the real world, how do you reset the fault, or are you stuck with a tow to dealer?
My thoughts exactly.... not to mention you may now be stuck, need a tow and a trip to Dodge to reset it. It would be an expensive day.
Wow! I totally learned something today. Very interesting. Awesome job!
Kudos to Dodge for inviting you to explain the engineering and the rationale for the vehicle that they have developed. Some car companies would probably get defensive and lay blame at you and not at their car. Respect to Dodge and Stellantis as a business.
Good respect to Dodge for addressing this!
Would be even nicer if they actually did something about it though. Like fix the frickin software before a family of 4 gets stuck out in a blizzard with no safety systems or AWD!
Excellent video. I really enjoyed the troubleshooting investigation.
To be fair though, I noticed that when Tommy got the Hornet to err, the speed was not 9mph, it was around 6, so what's happening there?
Its probably a false mph reading on the dash - however, it should usually be the opposite: dash shows 60mph but GPS speed (which is more accurate) is 55-57mph.
So in this case if the dash shows 6mph, you'd be going more like 3. Doesn't make sense. I think there is more to it than the EU law.
And strange that the Hornet was the first to kick off these errors even though Tommy had tested lots of other SUVs exactly the same way without issue. And as far as I'm aware, he did not have a foot transplant!
I expect it has to do with the differential. With one tire on the ground in a stopped position the wheel across from it on rollers will be going twice as fast as the input, which is where speed is measured. 6 mph input means one wheel is going approx. 12 mph, well over the threshold for the error...
LOL, actually he had a foot transplant, he just didn't tell us.@@danielbremner7805
The 15 km/h speed should be, if I remember well, the limit under which by EU rules the data from sensors are not considered of good quality, but also the speed under which ESC and ABS can be disengaged.
So I image that after n seconds with three wheels spinning at more than 15 km/h than the 4th one, the system supposes that there is a faulty sensor and the car is put in crash prevention mode (= limit car performances).
Instead pushing more on accelerator I suppose that the traction control routine starts to activate earlier than the fault wheel speed sensor algorythm intervention. After activation of the traction control the speed of the wheels becames different since the brakes start to work in the three spinning wheels indipendently.
This is an engineer's dream. A problem happens in the field and they can get the actual vehicle that has the issue and replicate it without modifying anything. The buying public think that these people just dump crap on us when they really are passionate about making a good product within the constraints they obviously have. I've been to Chrysler engineering, right at the beginning of the Daimler/Chrysler era, and it was the same way. Good on them and TFL to put this video together.
Mercedes did bring Chrysler out of the dark ages.
You nailed it, except they just explain the problem away instead of ACTUALLY RESOLVING IT!
Great information! One of the best I have seen regarding why it does what it does.
TFL keeps growing and improving. This access to the people who actually make the systems is just great. I think the Hornet is a nice car.
Thoroughly enjoyed this slip test follow up! It was so awesome, not only to see that it can pass the slip test, but to also learn the intricacies surrounding the vehicle parameters that caused the fault. Great job to TFL and Stellantis for a breakdown that was well explained!
In my eyes it failed the slip test. In a high slip situation you're supposed to be light on the throttle. Heavy throttle input only leads to breaking traction, and sliding all the wheels. That's why TCS will basically cut all power to the wheels if you're sliding, and continue to floor it.
Good news! I recently test drove a hornet GT and liked it very much. I got scared off by the fast lane test. Now Im back in the market for one.
great followup video!
Still not acceptable because: If you use the recommended 30% throttle in heavy snow, you will dig one or more tires into a hole and get stuck. We get lots of snow in Upstate NY, as they probably do where you did the test in Michigan..
It's ineresting that they were able to replicate the same faults with a Mazda. This, and the engineer's comment, seems to indicate the issue is common across many manufacturers. Maybe TFL can try to replicate the issue as part of future slip tests?
I don’t get why people keep calling it an issue.
It’s not an issue, it’s by design. It’s to prevent a REAL wheel speed sensor issue to kill you.
@@giovannifacci Poor word choice on my part. I understand why it's occurs and I actually agree with you. I should have used "condition" instead of "issue."
Kudos for being honest Dodge. I mean, it IS a Dodge..... which should trigger a warning light in the brain, but I do appreciate the honesty.
I agree with others. It's a cool video Tommy you did a great job, And the engineer wasn't completely on the defensive and could actually explain things. However if this was my car and an icy intersection carefully applying the throttle trying to get home and an ice storm, I would not be happy at all to have a bunch of faults come on and lose all-wheel drive. There has to be a better way ...