"If Herb was really you're friend, he would understand." He did. What's worst about this is that, Herb was never angry at Bojack about not leaving the show. He knew this could have happened. What's his angry about is abandoning Herb. He only contacted him and apologized when Herb got cancer. He basically went to his place and try to apologize not for Herb but for himself.
More than that, he knew Bojack very well, as mentor, friend, like a father, so he wasn't going to be fooled by him about why he was going to apologize, specially after many years of not being in contact. He has known that despite his rants, diva and shallow atittude, very, very deep Bojack is just an insecure and spinless coward who can be easily broken and manipulated by despicable people who appear to have enough power to destroy his career, or in case they really have it, then Bojack wouldn't have recovered because he is not audacious and assertive like Herb.
Nevertheless, Herb Kazazz never accepted his apology--he knew the apology wasn't "sincere." Bojack is quite an apparent character and Herb read through him like a book. Knowing all about Bojack Horseman comes with the territory. Nevertheless, at least Bojack was atoning for past sins--even when the decisions were coercing through others' intentions. Now, it pans out that way once the sequence becomes deconstructed: The executive producer (Angela) leveled with Bojack to stay because of his aspirations and for the sake of the business--and its safety. Ironically, Kazazz attempted the same stunt with Bojack, but really was selfishly about to ruin both of their lives over his mistakes. It's apparent, that when a relationship is sullied between friends of a hard-knocked life it is a challenge to open yourself to people. Realistically, he was to scare of sentimentality--something Herb didn't really understand about Bojack nor his life. Now, because of his selfishness, he cannot find peace in part of a mistake he made thereby projecting his woes onto another. It's pathetic.
@Melon Sweater But it wasn't entirely discriminatory, Angela Diaz's priorities are absolutely demonic, but she is thinking about the company's future. Bottom line, if Herb stayed with the company he would jeopardize the workplace, creating unsafe environment and tension among the staff (Mr. Peanutbutter anyone?)--and plus he had violated his contract and was exposed through a criminal felony. Using friendship like a meat-shield to cover up your tracks (you know, Damage Control) without asking the other about their feelings is selfish--and it's manipulative. Moreover, though Bojack's decisions were wrong the repercussions are interchangeable--look at Bojack's social circle and his nurturing. Additionally, Marty was already aware of the odds and basically put his weak-minded friend into a tough situation. Frankly, Bojack's retreat from Kazazz's friendship isn't pathetic in that sense, he didn't know how to approach him and reconcile. But it was pathetic that he returned after 20 years--on his death bed. Herb is also pathetic for letting this incident control his life. For two decades he held that grudge and constituted that anger towards Bojack without realizing that he is, in part, to blame. If anyone is a real friend both parties would understand the situation and try to work it out. However, since both of them never contacted each other in post mortem; what exactly was the friendship built under?
@@TheMightyN No, a friendship means that you are willing to stand for your friend, even when things may go pear shape. Herb only became really bitter when it was clear that bojack wanted forgivness right when he thought herb was going to die. Bojack could have asked for forgivness much sooner than when herb was almost dying of cancer.
@@Sebastianrm30 "If you're lucky, I'll never talk to you again" definitely felt like fore-shadowing, but more notably is how hard they made her stand out. She has one of the most noticeably unique designs, especially for a human in this show, and when she showed up in season 6 I immediately recognized her. She feels like she was designed to be memorable, so when she comes back you know exactly what's going on.
I cannot believe she bluffed. She threatened to ruin everything Bojack had and didn't even have the power to do so. All she had was Bojack's insecurities and it worked, AND THEN she had the soulessness to do it again in season 6.
Now that I think about it, BoJack probably would have found a different acting job if his show was canceled. But the cancellation probably wouldn't happen immediately anyway since Horsin Around is still popular around this time....holy shit
What's really sad is Herb wasn't upset about Bojack not standing up to the exec but for cutting ties with him. There was nothing stopping the two from still being friends in their private lives. Bojack could have literally have had his cake and eat it too.
wich at least show that despite him being very selfish, he has a working conscience even if he does the wrong things because he wants to escape it. Lot of characters don't have an ounce of it. @@maciejrozanski154
@@kissarococo2459 Yes, but my life tought me that it is better to stand in the face of problems like this, running away wont help, it will only make them worse but prolonged in time, but i think show is already showing that :). Bojack blamed this women for this while decision was his alone, it was her job to fire somebody not good enaugh, Herbert should understund (he did), but Bojack should have curage to tell him what happened and explain situation with him, they were going diferrent ways but it does not mean they should stop being friends. I think the point of Bojack is that he is not a bad person, he is just irresposible
Saddest thing is that Herb never minded him choosing the show over him. He knew it would go to the crapper without him. He just wanted his friend and Bojack turned his back in guilt.
@NoiseCannon Not really. The arguments were actually pretty effective. Thats how showbuisiness works and we who arent part of it behind the scenes shouldnt judge that much.
“If Herb’s really your friend, he’ll understand,” hits more when you realize it’s true. Herb knew the, “show biz phonies,” would abandon him. He wasn’t hurt until Bojack abandoned him.
That's what killed me the most about this scene when I first watched it. She only makes the coffee & stirs it to use as a prop. She could've taken it with her to finish later but just discards it anyway. Like how Bojack is just a tool to make money for the network and will be discarded without a care. Also shows how great this show is with visual gags.
@@MrOzzification EXACTLY!Or incoherent to this episode rather the one "a positive trauma" in S6 where Diane passes by some rats racing (rat race) when she was stuck in her depressive/workaholic/obsessed with her book loop.I love this serie
It's symbolism. She stirred the pot and got him to make a decision but it was still his decision to make. She basically stirred the coffee and he did everything else with it. He drank it? Ok maybe I'm not good with anaolgies. Call me Britta.
I feel she did it so it’d seem like Bojack wasn’t worth her time to the point, she would be in the middle of making coffee while talking about a potential career altering decision for him. Like as her job put her in way more important positions than speaking to the star of a show regardless of the fact he would have so much leverage over her and her colleagues because the show wasn’t the main attraction of Bojack, Bojack was the main attraction of the show (although he entirely threw that away the moment he chose the show over his friend and made it his life’s only true achievement for decades even though it was all off Herb’s back. Also it basically had all control over him when it got him to throw away his bestfriend.) It probably quietly shouted how much authority she had over him although she had no true power over him as her job then was to keep Bojack while he agrees to throw Herb under the bus. Bojack really thought the show runners would be willing to fire him because her lack of treating him like an equal crumbled his spine into dust.
Most likely was gonna try to appear more sympathetic towards Bojack, maybe say she also had a bad childhood to get Bojack on her side. Unfortunately it didn’t take much to influence Bojack to do a horrible thing.
No doubt Bojack caved so easily because of having his confidence and ability to stand up to authority figured crushed by his parents, especially Beatrice. Notice how he rubs his arm and glances away, that's a very childish thing to do when in an uncomfortable situation, like he's being mentally reverted to that helpless, insecure child he was when Beatrice and Butterscotch crushed his self-worth and confidence. He can barely get a word in with the executive and he knows what'll happen if he stands up for Herb.
I know kids who their parents humiliate, beat them and treated worse than bojack yet they still stand up to authority figures. ( disrespect them and all )
I feel Herb really put himself in a impossible moment and the fact he wanted Bojack to help talk with the executive even know it was a losing battle and the fact Bojack knew he was fighting a losing battle at this point
This is all the more tragic when episode 14 reveals she was bluffing almost everything that happened after this incident could’ve been completely avoided if bojack walked
That the thing even if it did got avoided the network would of found others ways of getting rid of Herb as sometimes avoiding something is waiting for the second problem to come
Worst part is that his career basically tanked after Horsin' Around, all that talk about this being the begining of his career was just a bunch of lies the exec came up with to keep him until the end of the show. He betrayed his best friend and all he has to show for it is a cheesy 90's sitcom.
This is the exact moment his life was ruined. After this moment, his life went downhill. Everything that happened with Sarah Lynn, all the decisions he made that finally hit him during that interview happened right after this moment. I’m not saying he wouldn’t have completely changed, some of the stuff from his childhood would still affect him, but things would be very different. Had Herb still been a part of the show, he would’ve steered Sarah Lynn in the right direction, that whole falling out with Sharona would’ve ended differently. So many things would be different, and all of that was ruined, because of Angela.
@@waves2378 "Grow up. You play these games, "if I hadn't done this, if I wasn't so that," but you did and you were and here we are. Here we are! Because we did what we had to do." "You are all the things that are wrong with you. It's not the alcohol, or the drugs, or any of the shitty things that happened to you in your career, or when you were a kid. It's you. Okay? It's you. Fuck, man, what else is there to say" Bojack did the right thing by having Herb out of the show, but it's not that what's wrong, it's the fact that after all Herb did for him Bojack never called him back, not once. When Herb was in need of a friend Bojack had him out of his life, and that decision was entirely by him, no executive told him to cut personal ties with Herb.
By the end of the series, he doesn't even have the cheesy sitcom to show either since he took a buyout. He has lost literally everything and has no legacy to leave behind.
@@jamaljames9331 yeah, it's really sad once it sinks in. Bojack did so many awful things, hurt so many people, and damaged both himself and others beyond repair, and in the end he has nothing to show for it. He ruined everything. I also think that the scene in "The view from halfway down" where Sarah Lynn mentions giving her whole life for show business also ties into Bojack and makes this so much sadder. We know that the hallucinations in the view from halfway down were figments of Bojacks own mind. We don't know if Sarah Lynn would actually have said this. Bojack is subconsciously using her in his drug fueled fantasy to voice his own thoughts. Therefore I think we can assume that Bojack feels like he gave his whole life for this too. He gave his whole life, endured so much trauma, scarred so many people,and he has nothing to show for it. I find that so heartbreaking.
"If Herb is your friend,he'll understand." Just like he said: "I don't care about the job!I did fine.I had a good life.But,what I needed back then, was a friend.And you abandoned me.And I will never forgive you for that. Now get the fuck out of my house."
Anyone notice the executive much like Wanda got the coffee cup but didn't drink from it, only threw it in the trash as soon as she was done talking. Might have been a foreshadowing to bojack and his resentment to executives
More likely she needed "something to do with her hands" during the conversation, and stirring the coffee cup served that need for the animators. But there wasn't any natural point in the conversation for her to actually take a sip.
Perhaps stirring a coffee is a coping mechanism (probably not the best use of that term but I'm sticking with it) while she bluffs her way through an extremely important conversation.
When Herb got fired from a show he created, those executives were telling him that his idea no longer belonged to him. Of course his life would come crashing down.
After watching the episode Where Herb died it kind of implied he may of commit suicide as it seems he may of had his car brakes jacked up and deliberately crash into the truck full of peanuts and may of wanted to use his death to promote his poorly manuscript and use it as a last jab at his fans as he thinks he only remember for his show Horsing around even know he build a name and legacy for himself
I have watch the episode back and forward and it showed Herb was full of hope with the book and giving the fact a guy like herb can write something good like Horsing around and yet writes a poorly writing Manuscript and the fact horsing around was that one thing people talked about much like Tim burton for his batman movies and Carrie fisher for star wars shows herb killed himself to give his fans the poorly writing Manuscript as his Last F-you to the world
the world's most awesome variety channel Still, they’ve made it clear that he never got over having “Horsin’ Around” taken from him. He could never forgive Bojack.
Angelica Huston appears only twice briefly in the whole series but knocks it outta the park each time. Such an important character that really determines the trajectory of Bojack's whole life.
Bojack did have all the power here, imagine if they took will smith from fresh prince or jerry Seinfeld from Seinfeld ? When Michael Scott left the office, it tanked !! People don’t watch things for the executives edited: CALLED IT !!
But Bojack didn't know that, and the executive knew that and took full advantage of it. Especially considering that Bojack's childhood left him literally unable to stand up to any sort of authority figure, Bojack really only had one way out.
Do you know what two and half men was? they literally fired the main character and keep like nothing happened, put some actor that was not so bad but never came close to the original and keep the show going, ppl did an outrage for a month or two and then all was forgotten and ppl keep eating trash. People will watch what they are told to watch, dont underestimate the hability of humans to consume piles of garbage
@@camilogonzalez5050 They fired the main actor because he had turned into a toxic wreck of a person who demanded a 50% raise, was engulfed by drug problems, threatened his romantic partner with violence, and a host of other horrible things, all while invoking the phrase 'winning'. It would have been unconscionable for them not to fire him. So, yeah, I'm glad people still enjoyed the show - one ruinous egomaniac shouldn't be able to ruin an entire venue of entertainment. As for your judgment that it was 'garbage' - man, if I had a nickel for every time I've heard someone call something someone else enjoyed garbage, I'd be very rich. Enjoy what you want, let other people enjoy what they want, and let things be unless it turns out that the actors are Nazis or something else awful, alright?
@@roguishpaladin i know thats what theyfired him for, my point is that the show will go on with or without them ain character and NOONE is irreplazable like the comment stated, ppl will its not there for the actors ppl is there for their own entertaiment
@@camilogonzalez5050 The sentence "People will watch what they are told to watch, dont underestimate the hability of humans to consume piles of garbage" makes it look like you're stanning for Charlie Sheen. The fact of the matter is, there was a great deal of support for his removal from the show. The dichotomy was to continue watching the show because you support their choice to replace Sheen or to stop watching because you support Sheen - personally, I find the first the more morally supportable choice. As for consuming piles of garbage, the artistic quality of Two and a Half Men did not change due to Sheen's departure - it was never high art. Really, I find it more true that there is a certain subsection of people who will use inflammatory terms like calling a certain kind of media garbage because they're trying to look like avant-garde defenders of artists' rights. They'll couch what they're doing in the guise of being 'for the people[, but they really just, at heart, want to see the world burn. But, you wouldn't know what I'm talking about. I bet the people reading your comments do, though. You're not too good for media. If you don't like something, don't watch it, but don't pretend that your feelings outweigh the enjoyment of someone who does find meaning in it. Stop acting like the world is below you. Some people enjoy things, and they should not be persecuted for that, nor told that their enjoyment is garbage. They should be encouraged, unless they like white supremacy or something else inherently evil like that.
"This is a business and every day we don't fire Herb, we're throwing money down the crapper." They cannot do the show without Bojack, and the show was a hit. Losing Bojack would have been WAY more expensive than keeping Herb. If he hadn't chickened out, they would have been fine. Management has no power over workers who stand united in solidarity. Don't be a scab.
I don't think so, there are examples where executives fired reknown celebrities or dearest actors/actresses from either for a movie or a series because of issues, scandals or because of no reason, but money is involved. Eg, in Charmed, in Two and a Half Men, in Step by Step with Cody. In Bolt, Chloe Moretz was going to be Penny, but they changed her for Miley Cyrus. And we can go further to the past with Judy Garland. In short, as Angela showed when she was talking, they were not afraid to also fired Bojack and change him for another actor, because the homophobical mob psychology at that moment would have been on their favour.
Two and a Half Men they were forced into it with Charlie Sheen's problems, and it's relatively easy to change a voice actress for a movie. Bojack was deep into a sitcom and was the main character. Him standing in solidarity would mean either the show was canned or he got what he wanted. I think it's more likely the show would have been cancelled, but I think at this point they wouldn't replace Bojack without some cause to fall back on.
Cloverfr not how Hollywoo(d) works. Every major film studio and exec/ personality knows each other and are in close contact. If you piss 1 of them off they call their friends and then the entire industry will blacklist you. That is a big part of the reason why there are so many stories of famous actors and actresses being abused by higher ups. If they speak up they are f”ked. And no the #meetoo movement didn’t change anything, it just temporarily shined a light onto specific examples. That wasn’t the first time it happened and it won’t be the last.
Had people like Angela in my life where they try to dominant you and steer your head using your insecurities. Its a really shitty and selfish thing to do to a person. The only way out for me was that I learned to stand up for myself and embraced the drama and consequences head on. You may lose some things or benefits this way but sacrifices needs to be made in order for you to grow and be mentally strong.
How was this a bluff? Everything she said definitely could’ve happened for him. He just wasn’t lucky enough for it. All she told him was that his chances would be zero if he chose Herb.
He should've. I blame bad writing for what he would've likely done. Even yes losing HOLLYHOCK, I still think he would've told Angela to go fuck herself.
Bojack is a coward. He was stable here compared to his childhood, he owed where he is to Herb. Yet he chose a pipe dream over what he already had. Remember he was big as David Hasslehoff (minus the music part) at this point. He's such a dick.
And she was fucking bluffing. Bojack's original sin, the initial catalyst for arguably everything, was based on a bluff. Wow. Poor Herb. And everyone else. They deserved so much better than what they got.
@@sasir2013 I know I’m late but Yes he drank before knowing Herb but it only became a problem later on. (Though you could argue he still drank too much, he could still control it enough at this point) And though BoJack wasn’t the greatest role model to Sarah Lynn he only took advantage of her when they were both much older in the events we see on the show
That executive knows her job and knows it well. She predicted every direction the conversation was going to take and lead it on her own terms. The only leverage Bojack had was his threat to walk out if Herb gets fired and she immediately disarmed him by putting the ball back onto his court.
People like to wax that things would have been so much better if Bojack had just reached out… but we also have to acknowledge that maybe never seeing that train wreck of a horse again was the best thing that ever happened to Herb.
A true friend, a great person, and a strong performer would have stood up to Angela. I’ve done it before, and yes it cost me some major opportunities (including being in some Broadway roles)...but it was worth it to stand by the people about whom I care, and to retain my integrity. Not worth becoming rich/famous if it means screwing over the people closest to you.
The coffee Angela prepares is an excellent image to accompany the scene: She makes a fresh cup, stirs the brew -but never once drinks the coffee. In fact, she straight up trashes it after the 'conversation' it's nothing more than a prop, just like Bojack. It's small, and likely this is over interpreting, but in animation everything is intentional and this gesture is significant in a subtle fashion, not unlike how Angela quotes "the show must go on" which is dead on for the "don't stop dancing" song.
@@BryceZed It's also a call forward for us, the audience. Show must go on became a famous telling in the show biz after Freddie Mercury died in the early 90s due to AIDS.
People blast Bojack for the choice he made, and how he should've known there was another way. But the thing is this: Bojack was a young actor in a third-rate sitcom. His career was incredibly young. He was also very naïve about how Hollywood works, nor of all the cards he held. That executive, in his mind, is a very powerful person who could make or break his career. People only act on the information they know. Bojack didn't have much, but the looming end of his career. Maybe he would've been better off. Maybe he would've been worse off. But you can't dwell on that.
Yet he waited 20-30 years until Herb was dying of cancer to come and ‘apologize’ just so he could have closure(BoJack). No one owes BoJack forgiveness. He feels remorse for what he did and he should. Herb didn’t care about the show. What hurt the most was BoJack turning his back on him when Herb was outed and fired from the show.
He was young and I agree with your perspective. I think in his shoes I would at least check up with a lawyer and my agent about my options, about what I can do for the Herb in this situation. In that case the Angela bullshit would probably been discovered and discarted. But anyway, that's not how the story goes.
She’s been referenced a bunch in the past due to it being the first time BoJack directly ruined someone’s life. He left the alcohol that Sarah Lynn drank which influenced her addiction as an adult, as well as getting the hairdresser fired. From what I recall, he asked Diane at the Philbert premiere if she wanted to know what “he did with the Horsin’ Around hairdresser.” The hairdresser also is featured on a stagnant slide in “Don’t Stop Dancing.”
Funny thing was that even if Horsin around failed as a show because of Bojack leaving, he and Herb probably could have gave birth to another TV someday in the near future and continued their success while maintaining their friendship.
Imagine a timeline where Bojack still didn't save Herbs job but wasn't to ashamed to contact him, that was part that broke Herbs heart. There would have been tension in regards to Bojack's career but they probably would still be friends.
I think if Bojack had stood up for Herb, his life would've taken different turns, but he'd be just as miserable. He would've kept a friend, and maybe even made a new show, but he'd still be Bojack Horseman and he'd still fall into self-destructive patterns. That'd be best case scenario. Worst case, his irresponsible spending habits would leave him broke and he'd resent Herb for convincing him to give up his big career opportunity.
It really said something that Todd was the only "friend" Bojack had between Horsing Around ending and the show starting. Bojack use wanted to indulge in his vices and used his "pain" as excuses for it. I think the only hope he could have had was if he never started drinking since he did start out fairly clean.
I kinda doubt it. Without horsing around, he wouldnt really be well known for it and might've left hollywoo for good. The only diff is Beatrice having another excuse to call him a coward, but that's it. More like Bojack loses less, corrupts less people indirectly/directly, and sarah Lynn lives.
This was back when he wasn't TOO famous to not care about that stuff, he still genuinely valued his relationships and wanted to keep a good balance in his life. It wasn't until later when he became the pathetic washed-up celebrity we know and love to hate.
Plus seasons 2 through 6 cannot happen without his call back to his 90s show and hollywoo (except for some of his past as a kid). Which also means no netflix entirely.
A few pointers here; Bojack’s talk with Angela shows signs of what’s to come and to get all psychoanalytical, traits that Bojack is impacted by. First, his cowardice. Bojack immediately is docile to Angela as soon as she says “I’m not down talking.” When it comes to strong ppl (especially women and I’ll get to that), Bojack cowers to their wishes. And her words stick with him-it was easier for Bojack to throw herb under the bus to get fame. Bojack can’t handle conflict. Second, Angela saying this “shut up I’m not done talking” is eerily similar to how Beatrice shit down Bojack’s wishes to not perform, and how Bojack’s second Interview with the mouse went. Here we have strong headed women who dominate Bojack. Two of them are toxic, the other was trying to prevent Bojack from excusing his bad behavior. Thirdly, this explains I think a large part as to why Bojack is a coward and easy to coerce and why he acts out. The abuse by his mother (and father) caused Boajck to develop selfishness, a need to please, an inability to take control of a situation. It also may have fueled his desire to dominate women. This was pointed out in the second interview that Bojack does date or try to have sex with women he has some power over and then he mistreats them. This is quite common amongst emotionally stunted men who have problems with mothers.
He does try to please women who are authority figures to him, the biggest person being Kelsey Jannings during Season 2. Great observation! Never really connected him being docile/bending to Angela’s will to his childhood abuse and desire to please.
Well it is just an insinuation on my part; notic ehow Bojack acts like a kid. He’s uncomfortable, his voice gets pushed away and he lets that happen. He isnt that much younger than Angela. He refusing to look directly at Angela and touched his arm in discomfort. Granted those in themselves means he’s a kid-plenty of ppl have those quirks. But combine all of these traits into a grown man and consider how his mom treated him-it gets you thinking
Just me or is the way she enters the frame honestly kind of terrifying? Just the way she's shaped, all angles and pointed edges, and the way her colours completely clash with the setting. It's like some kind of otherworldly entity just appeared and disappeared.
Bautista said that he doesn't care if they fire him, and even said he won't be doing another movie with them after his contract is up. So with his conditions being that he quits or gets his way. I don't think the same conversation would do anything different for him.
@PersonaX James Gunn, also some say it was a PR stunt to get FOX, I think if it was real James Gunn could have sued Disney for firing him for tweets he made before signing on.
Welcome to the dark side of Hollywood. Even the executives have to be incredible actors. When every single word has to be questioned, it's no wonder Hollywood has the reputation it does.
It took me years to realize this, but the line "I like healthy gums in a major way" from a toothpaste rap, implies it started with "HI, I'm Horse and I'm here to say." This is so stupid and smart, I love it.
To be fair, Bojack was at least trying to object here, but he got interrupted by an authority over and over again. It's not like he sat there silent or agreed. He was trying to stick up for his friend. As Herb says, he was not angry for losing the show, but for losing a friend.
When i first saw this scene I thought Angela was a analouge for the devil. The way she can predict Bojacks thoughts and responses, peer into his insecurities and all the finality and power in her words. Something about the way she said "if youre lucky youll never see me again" was eerie and Faustian. This feels like the moment Bojack sold his soul but it feel almost literal with the way Angela dominates him with soothing, demanding lies.
When your life is going good, you won't know who your real freinds are. When your life starts falling apart, then you'll know who your real friends are.
"If you threat them to walk, they will listen to you", yeah sure. Didn't he think that Bojack's power was little compared to the one of the executives?, or That he could have been easily fired as well as him if he had supported him? Or maybe Herb was right, that Bojack really had enough power to scare the executives, but he didn't think that they could think in a way to intimidate or scare him. However, I don't think so because unfortunately, executive meddling has existed and they don't care about the entertainment quality as long as they get more money.
Perhaps he was not thinking clearly. Later on he is no longer mad but Bojack never comes with apology. Realistically thining shows like Horsin around were coming to the end of their eras and were a dime in a dozen.
hm does anyone blame angela here? like i get the making her out to be a villain angle in this scene but, the more I think about it, shes really actually just doing her job. After all, it is a business. This is a really really hard situation for all three of them to be honest.
I don't blame Angela like it's her fault for creating the politics that got Herb fired, but you can 100% blame her for playing by/enforcing the politics.
Before episode 14, I could get Angela. Entertainment is a business and you gotta make really tough decisions. In Angela's case, even if she didn't care what Herb was doing, she had to do it because of the backlash Herb was facing due to his sexual orientation. After episode 14, no. Angela is a massive villain for basically lying to BJ about the entire situation. With that revelation, no wonder BJ hates executives. If Angela never pulled that on him, he would still have a stable friendship with Herb.
@@mario167100 That's how execs work. They aren't beholden to law to be truthful. Executives will bullshit to get you to stay, especially if they are a big bread winner, at least until they don't need you anymore. Herb was a shitty friend for putting Bojack in this situation, and then getting butthurt that Bojack chose business over him. A friend who wants to be a detriment to your aspirations is not a friend, even if they helped you get there. Bojack was shitty for not staying in touch and not apologizing. In the end, it's entirely Herb's fault for his public indecency. No one would have likely cared if he kept his homosexual actions behind closed doors.
I... hate how I can be mad at BoJack for this. The lack of a backbone with Angela, I can understand. Even though she bluffed, it makes sense that BoJack would buy it. His mother instilled a severe lack of self worth in him since he was a child saying stuff like "Nobody cares how you feel. You have an audience out there and they want to hear you sing." And Herb would have understood, too. But it wasn't even being betrayed that he was angry over, it was being abandoned. Herb ended up accomplishing more without the show, and BoJack despite not having anything to do for 18 whole years after Horsin' Around ended never even made an effort to reach out to his former friend. And that's gotta be the saddest thing out of all of this. BoJack really has no one to blame but himself. Not even when he learned about the bluff because it isn't like Herb or Angela was responsible for him ruining the show’s legacy.
“Wait a minute this isn’t the bar! I gotta fire my assistant!” WOW that line just hit me… Herb.. the assistant.. was fired. By Bojack. Unknowingly. Fucking.. ouch.
Knowing what we know now, that she was bluffing and totally would've caved if Bojack had stuck to his guns, I can't help but appreciate little details like her preparing a coffee for that whole talk, just to throw it in the trash at the end. Looks like she was employing a business meeting trick, giving herself something to do with her hands, so she wouldn't come across as nervous.
If only Bojack remembered he started from nothing like Herb and walked with Herb things may went differently. For better or worse. They could have started charities together. Wrote books, Pushed the rest of the cast of Horsin Around to pursue different endeavors. Also key in the fact Angela only wanted Herb gone and keep Bojack. She didn't point a gun to his head and said he must cut communications with Herb. And there was no contract written that states he shouldn't associate with Him. He could have chatted up with Herb and discussed what went on in that room. Not like they bugged his phone. Or maintained communication with his Friend.
Bojack Horseman doesn't have villians. Only people who have been affected by the actions of others that make them do the things they do, but I think Angela is probably one of the characters that is a legit villain.
It's funny because something like this happened in real life, but with a differe t outcome. Frank Darabont, the showrunner for season 1 of "The Walking Dead" was fired by AMC during the making of season 2. Jeffrey Demmun (the actor who played Dale in the show) was a very good friend of Darabont and angry, decided to leave TWD in support of his pal. I find that very admirable.
Another thing Bojack could have done is when he visited Herb is don't reopen any wounds and just spend as much time with him as possible; I think Herb would have taken that better as an apology.
Disco Volante I won’t mess around, I would do the same as Bojack. If some big producer dangles my dreams right in my face, told me I could make it big if I just throw a friend under... I would probably do it. I just want to see a more romantic bravado in fiction.
Notice the detail where she prepare her coffee, stirs it up and at the end if spouting this toxic ultimatum she doesn't even take a zip, just chucks it in the bin.
it's such a horrible mentality to have. "if herb was your good friend he would understand" yet herb actually took that all in, to him having bojack as a friend was enough. yet bojack being him, had to indulge in selfish guilt and distanced herb for his own comfort. then he did the exact same thing when he tried to apologize. it's all for his own comfort. to make himself feel better, but i don't think he himself even realize that, probably thinks that he's being a "good person"
It's this moment that makes me unable to root for Bojack as a character; sure his antics are fun to watch, but when he tells Wanda in season 2 'my life was ruined by a network executive like you' he's shifting the blame for his own guilt onto her, when the final decision was in HIS hands the whole time. If he had stood with Herb, the network might have caved, because Horsin' Around was still a huge hit. But all the executive had to do was dangle the possibility of Secretariat in front of him and he ditched Herb so fast.
I mean ultimately what would you do know situation I know you would like to say oh I would be a good friend stand up for herb but in reality if you were in a position I'm not sure you would do that anybody would like to be the person who roots for herb but that's the right thing but most of us would do what Bojack did and do nothing..
Herb understood it. I‘m sure of that. He would have forgiven him, if he didn’t abandon him afterwards like nothing. Never thought of contacting him over the phone or well sent some Christmas cards, any kind of effort could have saved their friendship. He was his first real friend, and he left Herb after causing him heart felt pain. Todd came later and got the rock opera destroyed because Bojack didn’t want to be alone, even though he didn’t treat him equally for the company . Diane was his unhealthy trauma bond partner in many situations , he put the „save me“-weight that almost destroyed everything for her on her shoulders. Mr Peanut Butter was to positive to be destroyed by him in any way, that’s why he’s the only one that stayed. All of them had good moments with him which will always connect them, but they deserve so much better than that.
I think that part of the reason Bojack caved is that this situation reminded him of when his mother said that he better make something of himself to make up for all the pain he caused her. This is partially why Bojack was motivated to choose career advancement over his best friend. What Bojack didn't realise or perhaps even appreciate, is that unlike Beatrice, Herb actually cared for him and loved him. That is the tragedy of this scene.
"If Herb was really you're friend, he would understand."
He did. What's worst about this is that, Herb was never angry at Bojack about not leaving the show. He knew this could have happened.
What's his angry about is abandoning Herb. He only contacted him and apologized when Herb got cancer. He basically went to his place and try to apologize not for Herb but for himself.
More than that, he knew Bojack very well, as mentor, friend, like a father, so he wasn't going to be fooled by him about why he was going to apologize, specially after many years of not being in contact. He has known that despite his rants, diva and shallow atittude, very, very deep Bojack is just an insecure and spinless coward who can be easily broken and manipulated by despicable people who appear to have enough power to destroy his career, or in case they really have it, then Bojack wouldn't have recovered because he is not audacious and assertive like Herb.
Do you guys think he could've made amends with Herb had he not died tragically in that crash?
Nevertheless, Herb Kazazz never accepted his apology--he knew the apology wasn't "sincere." Bojack is quite an apparent character and Herb read through him like a book. Knowing all about Bojack Horseman comes with the territory. Nevertheless, at least Bojack was atoning for past sins--even when the decisions were coercing through others' intentions. Now, it pans out that way once the sequence becomes deconstructed: The executive producer (Angela) leveled with Bojack to stay because of his aspirations and for the sake of the business--and its safety. Ironically, Kazazz attempted the same stunt with Bojack, but really was selfishly about to ruin both of their lives over his mistakes. It's apparent, that when a relationship is sullied between friends of a hard-knocked life it is a challenge to open yourself to people. Realistically, he was to scare of sentimentality--something Herb didn't really understand about Bojack nor his life. Now, because of his selfishness, he cannot find peace in part of a mistake he made thereby projecting his woes onto another. It's pathetic.
@Melon Sweater But it wasn't entirely discriminatory, Angela Diaz's priorities are absolutely demonic, but she is thinking about the company's future. Bottom line, if Herb stayed with the company he would jeopardize the workplace, creating unsafe environment and tension among the staff (Mr. Peanutbutter anyone?)--and plus he had violated his contract and was exposed through a criminal felony. Using friendship like a meat-shield to cover up your tracks (you know, Damage Control) without asking the other about their feelings is selfish--and it's manipulative. Moreover, though Bojack's decisions were wrong the repercussions are interchangeable--look at Bojack's social circle and his nurturing. Additionally, Marty was already aware of the odds and basically put his weak-minded friend into a tough situation. Frankly, Bojack's retreat from Kazazz's friendship isn't pathetic in that sense, he didn't know how to approach him and reconcile. But it was pathetic that he returned after 20 years--on his death bed. Herb is also pathetic for letting this incident control his life. For two decades he held that grudge and constituted that anger towards Bojack without realizing that he is, in part, to blame. If anyone is a real friend both parties would understand the situation and try to work it out. However, since both of them never contacted each other in post mortem; what exactly was the friendship built under?
@@TheMightyN No, a friendship means that you are willing to stand for your friend, even when things may go pear shape.
Herb only became really bitter when it was clear that bojack wanted forgivness right when he thought herb was going to die. Bojack could have asked for forgivness much sooner than when herb was almost dying of cancer.
"If you're lucky, I'll never talk to you again". She wasn't kidding.
And ruined his legacy of Horsin Around, well both of theirs
The absolute balls on Angela here. I wonder if they planned the later meeting from the start when they did this scene
@@Curelax I don't think they got that planned, but that makes it way better in my opinion. They tied it up perfectly.
@@Sebastianrm30 "If you're lucky, I'll never talk to you again" definitely felt like fore-shadowing, but more notably is how hard they made her stand out. She has one of the most noticeably unique designs, especially for a human in this show, and when she showed up in season 6 I immediately recognized her. She feels like she was designed to be memorable, so when she comes back you know exactly what's going on.
The next time they talked, he tried committing suicide after.
I cannot believe she bluffed. She threatened to ruin everything Bojack had and didn't even have the power to do so. All she had was Bojack's insecurities and it worked, AND THEN she had the soulessness to do it again in season 6.
Amazing writing
Now that I think about it, BoJack probably would have found a different acting job if his show was canceled. But the cancellation probably wouldn't happen immediately anyway since Horsin Around is still popular around this time....holy shit
Wait where is this
I mean isn't that what execs must have if they want to be execs? She played the role perfectly. "Nothing personal, just business" no-nonsense...
John Douglas LaBerge q hat zu Zeitgenossen CSS
What's really sad is Herb wasn't upset about Bojack not standing up to the exec but for cutting ties with him. There was nothing stopping the two from still being friends in their private lives. Bojack could have literally have had his cake and eat it too.
He felt ashamed after that, this is why he havent spoke to him again.
wich at least show that despite him being very selfish, he has a working conscience even if he does the wrong things because he wants to escape it. Lot of characters don't have an ounce of it. @@maciejrozanski154
@@kissarococo2459 Yes, but my life tought me that it is better to stand in the face of problems like this, running away wont help, it will only make them worse but prolonged in time, but i think show is already showing that :).
Bojack blamed this women for this while decision was his alone, it was her job to fire somebody not good enaugh, Herbert should understund (he did), but Bojack should have curage to tell him what happened and explain situation with him, they were going diferrent ways but it does not mean they should stop being friends.
I think the point of Bojack is that he is not a bad person, he is just irresposible
Maciej Róźański you mean irresponsible right?
@@angiemontgomery4712 Haha :D, absolutely, already changed it, thanks mate.
"My life was RUINED by a network executive like you".
fabiodude88 it takes two to tango:
Saddest thing is that Herb never minded him choosing the show over him. He knew it would go to the crapper without him. He just wanted his friend and Bojack turned his back in guilt.
@@kissarococo2459 A simple phonecall would have done just fine, but he never even did that.
Some people prefer the later years.
@NoiseCannon Not really. The arguments were actually pretty effective. Thats how showbuisiness works and we who arent part of it behind the scenes shouldnt judge that much.
“If Herb’s really your friend, he’ll understand,” hits more when you realize it’s true. Herb knew the, “show biz phonies,” would abandon him. He wasn’t hurt until Bojack abandoned him.
She only stirred the coffee. She never drank it and then threw it away.
That's what killed me the most about this scene when I first watched it. She only makes the coffee & stirs it to use as a prop. She could've taken it with her to finish later but just discards it anyway. Like how Bojack is just a tool to make money for the network and will be discarded without a care.
Also shows how great this show is with visual gags.
@@MrOzzification EXACTLY!Or incoherent to this episode rather the one "a positive trauma" in S6 where Diane passes by some rats racing (rat race) when she was stuck in her depressive/workaholic/obsessed with her book loop.I love this serie
It's symbolism. She stirred the pot and got him to make a decision but it was still his decision to make. She basically stirred the coffee and he did everything else with it. He drank it? Ok maybe I'm not good with anaolgies. Call me Britta.
@@leafyishereisdumbnameakath4259 Wow you really Britta'd that
I feel she did it so it’d seem like Bojack wasn’t worth her time to the point, she would be in the middle of making coffee while talking about a potential career altering decision for him. Like as her job put her in way more important positions than speaking to the star of a show regardless of the fact he would have so much leverage over her and her colleagues because the show wasn’t the main attraction of Bojack, Bojack was the main attraction of the show (although he entirely threw that away the moment he chose the show over his friend and made it his life’s only true achievement for decades even though it was all off Herb’s back. Also it basically had all control over him when it got him to throw away his bestfriend.) It probably quietly shouted how much authority she had over him although she had no true power over him as her job then was to keep Bojack while he agrees to throw Herb under the bus. Bojack really thought the show runners would be willing to fire him because her lack of treating him like an equal crumbled his spine into dust.
After this latest season, I wonder what else she had prepared to say
Most likely was gonna try to appear more sympathetic towards Bojack, maybe say she also had a bad childhood to get Bojack on her side. Unfortunately it didn’t take much to influence Bojack to do a horrible thing.
@@masterzombie161 “Horrible thing” = not leaving the show? I wouldn’t say it didn’t take much. She was very convincing
Herb never hated bojack for firing him he wasn't angry for that
No doubt Bojack caved so easily because of having his confidence and ability to stand up to authority figured crushed by his parents, especially Beatrice. Notice how he rubs his arm and glances away, that's a very childish thing to do when in an uncomfortable situation, like he's being mentally reverted to that helpless, insecure child he was when Beatrice and Butterscotch crushed his self-worth and confidence. He can barely get a word in with the executive and he knows what'll happen if he stands up for Herb.
Hmmm I never realized that, no wonder she sounds just like Beatrice
U
Oh shit
In flashbacks Young Bojack always makes that gesture holy crap!
I know kids who their parents humiliate, beat them and treated worse than bojack yet they still stand up to authority figures. ( disrespect them and all )
It really sucked to both be Herb and BoJack in this situation.
I feel Herb really put himself in a impossible moment and the fact he wanted Bojack to help talk with the executive even know it was a losing battle and the fact Bojack knew he was fighting a losing battle at this point
I would rather be Herb
Herb shouldn't have been sucking people's body parts in semi-public places.
@@ddsjgvk With HIV, and Cancer only to be killed by a peanut allergy?
*sucked* hahaha
This is all the more tragic when episode 14 reveals she was bluffing almost everything that happened after this incident could’ve been completely avoided if bojack walked
I know truly sad
Uh, no doi!
@@jasonseipler2665 would've been completely avoided if Bojack was a good friend and actually kept in contact with Herb after him getting fired.
That the thing even if it did got avoided the network would of found others ways of getting rid of Herb as sometimes avoiding something is waiting for the second problem to come
@ookreviewer4856 ould've been completely avoided if herb didn't do what he did that caused the whole thing
"If youre lucky, i will never talk to you again"
And bojack is anything BUT lucky. Damn
To be fair, the fact she saw him again means he made the wrong choice
Worst part is that his career basically tanked after Horsin' Around, all that talk about this being the begining of his career was just a bunch of lies the exec came up with to keep him until the end of the show.
He betrayed his best friend and all he has to show for it is a cheesy 90's sitcom.
"I betrayed my best friend and everything is worse now."
This is the exact moment his life was ruined. After this moment, his life went downhill. Everything that happened with Sarah Lynn, all the decisions he made that finally hit him during that interview happened right after this moment. I’m not saying he wouldn’t have completely changed, some of the stuff from his childhood would still affect him, but things would be very different. Had Herb still been a part of the show, he would’ve steered Sarah Lynn in the right direction, that whole falling out with Sharona would’ve ended differently. So many things would be different, and all of that was ruined, because of Angela.
@@waves2378 "Grow up. You play these games, "if I hadn't done this, if I wasn't so that," but you did and you were and here we are. Here we are! Because we did what we had to do." "You are all the things that are wrong with you. It's not the alcohol, or the drugs, or any of the shitty things that happened to you in your career, or when you were a kid. It's you. Okay? It's you. Fuck, man, what else is there to say"
Bojack did the right thing by having Herb out of the show, but it's not that what's wrong, it's the fact that after all Herb did for him Bojack never called him back, not once. When Herb was in need of a friend Bojack had him out of his life, and that decision was entirely by him, no executive told him to cut personal ties with Herb.
By the end of the series, he doesn't even have the cheesy sitcom to show either since he took a buyout. He has lost literally everything and has no legacy to leave behind.
@@jamaljames9331 yeah, it's really sad once it sinks in. Bojack did so many awful things, hurt so many people, and damaged both himself and others beyond repair, and in the end he has nothing to show for it. He ruined everything. I also think that the scene in "The view from halfway down" where Sarah Lynn mentions giving her whole life for show business also ties into Bojack and makes this so much sadder. We know that the hallucinations in the view from halfway down were figments of Bojacks own mind. We don't know if Sarah Lynn would actually have said this. Bojack is subconsciously using her in his drug fueled fantasy to voice his own thoughts. Therefore I think we can assume that Bojack feels like he gave his whole life for this too. He gave his whole life, endured so much trauma, scarred so many people,and he has nothing to show for it. I find that so heartbreaking.
"If Herb is your friend,he'll understand."
Just like he said:
"I don't care about the job!I did fine.I had a good life.But,what I needed back then, was a friend.And you abandoned me.And I will never forgive you for that.
Now get the fuck out of my house."
No matter where he looks he's always the architect of his own suffering
yeah right i don't buy that
Anyone notice the executive much like Wanda got the coffee cup but didn't drink from it, only threw it in the trash as soon as she was done talking. Might have been a foreshadowing to bojack and his resentment to executives
kitkatkruncher22 bojack’s mother did the same with a cigarette when she was telling him that he ruined her. Lit it, took one drag, put it out.
I wonder if it's an inside joke with the writers. Like they saw that happen once.
More likely she needed "something to do with her hands" during the conversation, and stirring the coffee cup served that need for the animators. But there wasn't any natural point in the conversation for her to actually take a sip.
As I've seen elsewhere it's probably because she's bluffing and even the top can have a tell.
Perhaps stirring a coffee is a coping mechanism (probably not the best use of that term but I'm sticking with it) while she bluffs her way through an extremely important conversation.
When Herb got fired from a show he created, those executives were telling him that his idea no longer belonged to him. Of course his life would come crashing down.
After watching the episode Where Herb died it kind of implied he may of commit suicide as it seems he may of had his car brakes jacked up and deliberately crash into the truck full of peanuts and may of wanted to use his death to promote his poorly manuscript and use it as a last jab at his fans as he thinks he only remember for his show Horsing around even know he build a name and legacy for himself
comic book reviewer That makes sense.
I have watch the episode back and forward and it showed Herb was full of hope with the book and giving the fact a guy like herb can write something good like Horsing around and yet writes a poorly writing Manuscript and the fact horsing around was that one thing people talked about much like Tim burton for his batman movies and Carrie fisher for star wars shows herb killed himself to give his fans the poorly writing Manuscript as his Last F-you to the world
He did do stuff after the show
the world's most awesome variety channel Still, they’ve made it clear that he never got over having “Horsin’ Around” taken from him. He could never forgive Bojack.
Angelica Huston appears only twice briefly in the whole series but knocks it outta the park each time. Such an important character that really determines the trajectory of Bojack's whole life.
THAT WAS ANGELICA HOUSTON?! DAM SHES GOOD
Bojack did have all the power here, imagine if they took will smith from fresh prince or jerry Seinfeld from Seinfeld ? When Michael Scott left the office, it tanked !! People don’t watch things for the executives
edited: CALLED IT !!
But Bojack didn't know that, and the executive knew that and took full advantage of it. Especially considering that Bojack's childhood left him literally unable to stand up to any sort of authority figure, Bojack really only had one way out.
Do you know what two and half men was? they literally fired the main character and keep like nothing happened, put some actor that was not so bad but never came close to the original and keep the show going, ppl did an outrage for a month or two and then all was forgotten and ppl keep eating trash. People will watch what they are told to watch, dont underestimate the hability of humans to consume piles of garbage
@@camilogonzalez5050 They fired the main actor because he had turned into a toxic wreck of a person who demanded a 50% raise, was engulfed by drug problems, threatened his romantic partner with violence, and a host of other horrible things, all while invoking the phrase 'winning'. It would have been unconscionable for them not to fire him. So, yeah, I'm glad people still enjoyed the show - one ruinous egomaniac shouldn't be able to ruin an entire venue of entertainment. As for your judgment that it was 'garbage' - man, if I had a nickel for every time I've heard someone call something someone else enjoyed garbage, I'd be very rich. Enjoy what you want, let other people enjoy what they want, and let things be unless it turns out that the actors are Nazis or something else awful, alright?
@@roguishpaladin i know thats what theyfired him for, my point is that the show will go on with or without them ain character and NOONE is irreplazable like the comment stated, ppl will its not there for the actors ppl is there for their own entertaiment
@@camilogonzalez5050 The sentence "People will watch what they are told to watch, dont underestimate the hability of humans to consume piles of garbage" makes it look like you're stanning for Charlie Sheen. The fact of the matter is, there was a great deal of support for his removal from the show. The dichotomy was to continue watching the show because you support their choice to replace Sheen or to stop watching because you support Sheen - personally, I find the first the more morally supportable choice. As for consuming piles of garbage, the artistic quality of Two and a Half Men did not change due to Sheen's departure - it was never high art.
Really, I find it more true that there is a certain subsection of people who will use inflammatory terms like calling a certain kind of media garbage because they're trying to look like avant-garde defenders of artists' rights. They'll couch what they're doing in the guise of being 'for the people[, but they really just, at heart, want to see the world burn. But, you wouldn't know what I'm talking about. I bet the people reading your comments do, though.
You're not too good for media. If you don't like something, don't watch it, but don't pretend that your feelings outweigh the enjoyment of someone who does find meaning in it. Stop acting like the world is below you. Some people enjoy things, and they should not be persecuted for that, nor told that their enjoyment is garbage. They should be encouraged, unless they like white supremacy or something else inherently evil like that.
"This is a business and every day we don't fire Herb, we're throwing money down the crapper."
They cannot do the show without Bojack, and the show was a hit.
Losing Bojack would have been WAY more expensive than keeping Herb. If he hadn't chickened out, they would have been fine.
Management has no power over workers who stand united in solidarity.
Don't be a scab.
I don't think so, there are examples where executives fired reknown celebrities or dearest actors/actresses from either for a movie or a series because of issues, scandals or because of no reason, but money is involved.
Eg, in Charmed, in Two and a Half Men, in Step by Step with Cody. In Bolt, Chloe Moretz was going to be Penny, but they changed her for Miley Cyrus. And we can go further to the past with Judy Garland.
In short, as Angela showed when she was talking, they were not afraid to also fired Bojack and change him for another actor, because the homophobical mob psychology at that moment would have been on their favour.
Two and a Half Men they were forced into it with Charlie Sheen's problems, and it's relatively easy to change a voice actress for a movie. Bojack was deep into a sitcom and was the main character. Him standing in solidarity would mean either the show was canned or he got what he wanted. I think it's more likely the show would have been cancelled, but I think at this point they wouldn't replace Bojack without some cause to fall back on.
@@RyanFribble Also, Bojack did not get in any drama, the show was incredible popular, so he could have got easily another contract.
Cloverfr not how Hollywoo(d) works. Every major film studio and exec/ personality knows each other and are in close contact. If you piss 1 of them off they call their friends and then the entire industry will blacklist you. That is a big part of the reason why there are so many stories of famous actors and actresses being abused by higher ups. If they speak up they are f”ked.
And no the #meetoo movement didn’t change anything, it just temporarily shined a light onto specific examples. That wasn’t the first time it happened and it won’t be the last.
I'm with you dude solidarity forever.
It’s interesting that Bojack actually starts off staying “if he goes I go”. Like, he def starts in the right place
Had people like Angela in my life where they try to dominant you and steer your head using your insecurities. Its a really shitty and selfish thing to do to a person. The only way out for me was that I learned to stand up for myself and embraced the drama and consequences head on. You may lose some things or benefits this way but sacrifices needs to be made in order for you to grow and be mentally strong.
My way was that I left. They tried to even manipulate me then into staying. I haven’t talked those people in two years and I couldn’t be happier…
Sorry, but if you snooze, you loose.
She was mother. fucking. bluffing.
How was this a bluff? Everything she said definitely could’ve happened for him. He just wasn’t lucky enough for it. All she told him was that his chances would be zero if he chose Herb.
Season 6 made this F'd up.
Angela was afraid of Bojack walking.
He should've. I blame bad writing for what he would've likely done. Even yes losing HOLLYHOCK, I still think he would've told Angela to go fuck herself.
Bojack is a coward. He was stable here compared to his childhood, he owed where he is to Herb.
Yet he chose a pipe dream over what he already had.
Remember he was big as David Hasslehoff (minus the music part) at this point.
He's such a dick.
And she was fucking bluffing. Bojack's original sin, the initial catalyst for arguably everything, was based on a bluff. Wow. Poor Herb. And everyone else. They deserved so much better than what they got.
Didn't he begin drinking before that? and manipulated sarah?
I'm not sure of the timeline
@@sasir2013 I know I’m late but
Yes he drank before knowing Herb but it only became a problem later on. (Though you could argue he still drank too much, he could still control it enough at this point)
And though BoJack wasn’t the greatest role model to Sarah Lynn he only took advantage of her when they were both much older in the events we see on the show
@@violet_hues110 I think I meant when he gave horrible advice and (I think) a bit of alcohol when she was a kid worried about performing
@@sasir2013 sorry I'm late but the alcohol was after Herb was fired
I love how this show portrays difficult situations like these in Hollywood.
Hollywoob *
That executive knows her job and knows it well. She predicted every direction the conversation was going to take and lead it on her own terms. The only leverage Bojack had was his threat to walk out if Herb gets fired and she immediately disarmed him by putting the ball back onto his court.
She just manipulated him like Palpatine to Vader. Nothing more, nothing less.
Funny enough the new season reveals she made that whole speech up
People like to wax that things would have been so much better if Bojack had just reached out… but we also have to acknowledge that maybe never seeing that train wreck of a horse again was the best thing that ever happened to Herb.
oof, yea. never even thought of that.
Very true..
A true friend, a great person, and a strong performer would have stood up to Angela. I’ve done it before, and yes it cost me some major opportunities (including being in some Broadway roles)...but it was worth it to stand by the people about whom I care, and to retain my integrity. Not worth becoming rich/famous if it means screwing over the people closest to you.
Good for you dude. You did the right thing.
Who are you?
Nobody's gonna talk about that waste of coffee she just made to just throw away
The coffee Angela prepares is an excellent image to accompany the scene: She makes a fresh cup, stirs the brew -but never once drinks the coffee. In fact, she straight up trashes it after the 'conversation' it's nothing more than a prop, just like Bojack. It's small, and likely this is over interpreting, but in animation everything is intentional and this gesture is significant in a subtle fashion, not unlike how Angela quotes "the show must go on" which is dead on for the "don't stop dancing" song.
@@BryceZed It's also a call forward for us, the audience. Show must go on became a famous telling in the show biz after Freddie Mercury died in the early 90s due to AIDS.
People blast Bojack for the choice he made, and how he should've known there was another way.
But the thing is this: Bojack was a young actor in a third-rate sitcom. His career was incredibly young. He was also very naïve about how Hollywood works, nor of all the cards he held. That executive, in his mind, is a very powerful person who could make or break his career.
People only act on the information they know. Bojack didn't have much, but the looming end of his career. Maybe he would've been better off. Maybe he would've been worse off. But you can't dwell on that.
Yet he waited 20-30 years until Herb was dying of cancer to come and ‘apologize’ just so he could have closure(BoJack).
No one owes BoJack forgiveness.
He feels remorse for what he did and he should. Herb didn’t care about the show. What hurt the most was BoJack turning his back on him when Herb was outed and fired from the show.
@@OneDayMarilyn THAT was not forgivable. But Herb losing his job is something that young Bojack had no real control over.
Season 6 episode 14 ‘Angela’
Her statement at the end of the episode will prove otherwise.
@@OneDayMarilyn But Bojack didn't know that at the time.
He was young and I agree with your perspective. I think in his shoes I would at least check up with a lawyer and my agent about my options, about what I can do for the Herb in this situation. In that case the Angela bullshit would probably been discovered and discarted. But anyway, that's not how the story goes.
1:49 holy crap the hairdresser from the newest season was here all this time 😮
She’s been referenced a bunch in the past due to it being the first time BoJack directly ruined someone’s life. He left the alcohol that Sarah Lynn drank which influenced her addiction as an adult, as well as getting the hairdresser fired. From what I recall, he asked Diane at the Philbert premiere if she wanted to know what “he did with the Horsin’ Around hairdresser.” The hairdresser also is featured on a stagnant slide in “Don’t Stop Dancing.”
i thinks the character even has a line somewhere on a flashback sceen on season 1
@@sebastianlam7371 her name is Sharona and she is i think the first person he hurt in the past that doesnt hold a grudge against him
Funny thing was that even if Horsin around failed as a show because of Bojack leaving, he and Herb probably could have gave birth to another TV someday in the near future and continued their success while maintaining their friendship.
Who’s here after the finale?
she doesn't know it this scene, but she also kills her own legacy in killing herb's
Fucking hell she puts Disney villains to shame....
Imagine a timeline where Bojack still didn't save Herbs job but wasn't to ashamed to contact him, that was part that broke Herbs heart. There would have been tension in regards to Bojack's career but they probably would still be friends.
I think if Bojack had stood up for Herb, his life would've taken different turns, but he'd be just as miserable. He would've kept a friend, and maybe even made a new show, but he'd still be Bojack Horseman and he'd still fall into self-destructive patterns. That'd be best case scenario. Worst case, his irresponsible spending habits would leave him broke and he'd resent Herb for convincing him to give up his big career opportunity.
It really said something that Todd was the only "friend" Bojack had between Horsing Around ending and the show starting. Bojack use wanted to indulge in his vices and used his "pain" as excuses for it. I think the only hope he could have had was if he never started drinking since he did start out fairly clean.
I kinda doubt it. Without horsing around, he wouldnt really be well known for it and might've left hollywoo for good. The only diff is Beatrice having another excuse to call him a coward, but that's it. More like Bojack loses less, corrupts less people indirectly/directly, and sarah Lynn lives.
@@wdcain1 "just wanted"
So that was a fucking lie.
The fact she was nervous he’d be that “good friend” the whole time.
This was back when he wasn't TOO famous to not care about that stuff, he still genuinely valued his relationships and wanted to keep a good balance in his life. It wasn't until later when he became the pathetic washed-up celebrity we know and love to hate.
I feel like if Bojack stood up for Herb his life would have been better even if he got fired from the show.
He would have kept a friend
Plus seasons 2 through 6 cannot happen without his call back to his 90s show and hollywoo (except for some of his past as a kid). Which also means no netflix entirely.
That sigh before he walks in to the show,is gut wrenching
And if you listen closely, you can hear his heartbeat before he goes in the show.
I will never EVER forgive BoJack for leaving him friendless for years.
I hope we get to see Angela Diaz again in Season 5.
Well we see her again in season 6..
I love Angela so much.
She may be horrible and cutthroat but her no-nonsense speaking is so well written I can't help but love her.
A few pointers here; Bojack’s talk with Angela shows signs of what’s to come and to get all psychoanalytical, traits that Bojack is impacted by. First, his cowardice. Bojack immediately is docile to Angela as soon as she says “I’m not down talking.” When it comes to strong ppl (especially women and I’ll get to that), Bojack cowers to their wishes. And her words stick with him-it was easier for Bojack to throw herb under the bus to get fame. Bojack can’t handle conflict. Second, Angela saying this “shut up I’m not done talking” is eerily similar to how Beatrice shit down Bojack’s wishes to not perform, and how Bojack’s second Interview with the mouse went. Here we have strong headed women who dominate Bojack. Two of them are toxic, the other was trying to prevent Bojack from excusing his bad behavior. Thirdly, this explains I think a large part as to why Bojack is a coward and easy to coerce and why he acts out. The abuse by his mother (and father) caused Boajck to develop selfishness, a need to please, an inability to take control of a situation. It also may have fueled his desire to dominate women. This was pointed out in the second interview that Bojack does date or try to have sex with women he has some power over and then he mistreats them. This is quite common amongst emotionally stunted men who have problems with mothers.
He does try to please women who are authority figures to him, the biggest person being Kelsey Jannings during Season 2. Great observation! Never really connected him being docile/bending to Angela’s will to his childhood abuse and desire to please.
Well it is just an insinuation on my part; notic ehow Bojack acts like a kid. He’s uncomfortable, his voice gets pushed away and he lets that happen. He isnt that much younger than Angela. He refusing to look directly at Angela and touched his arm in discomfort. Granted those in themselves means he’s a kid-plenty of ppl have those quirks. But combine all of these traits into a grown man and consider how his mom treated him-it gets you thinking
She really brew a coffee, stir it as a fidget toy, and throw it out.
Just me or is the way she enters the frame honestly kind of terrifying? Just the way she's shaped, all angles and pointed edges, and the way her colours completely clash with the setting. It's like some kind of otherworldly entity just appeared and disappeared.
I wonder if Bautista will get this conversation if Disney doesn't use Gunn's Script for GOTG Volume 3
You could take this and apply it to literally any major film/TV corporation.
Bautista said that he doesn't care if they fire him, and even said he won't be doing another movie with them after his contract is up. So with his conditions being that he quits or gets his way. I don't think the same conversation would do anything different for him.
@PersonaX James Gunn, also some say it was a PR stunt to get FOX, I think if it was real James Gunn could have sued Disney for firing him for tweets he made before signing on.
@PersonaX ...you...um...might want to edit your comment. Right idea, wrong James.
Achievement unlocked: The bad ending.
Welcome to the dark side of Hollywood.
Even the executives have to be incredible actors.
When every single word has to be questioned, it's no wonder Hollywood has the reputation it does.
When she said ‘if your lucky you won’t meet me again’ was that foreshadowing
It took me years to realize this, but the line "I like healthy gums in a major way" from a toothpaste rap, implies it started with "HI, I'm Horse and I'm here to say."
This is so stupid and smart, I love it.
Did u notice how she never drank the coffee
I did
Bojack had every opportunity to do the right thing, but he never could overcome his biggest enemy himself.
Crazy how Bojack's first words to Herb were tk get cancer
The more you delay an apology the more difficult it becomes to make.
To be fair, Bojack was at least trying to object here, but he got interrupted by an authority over and over again. It's not like he sat there silent or agreed. He was trying to stick up for his friend. As Herb says, he was not angry for losing the show, but for losing a friend.
To think she was bluffing the whole time...
When i first saw this scene I thought Angela was a analouge for the devil. The way she can predict Bojacks thoughts and responses, peer into his insecurities and all the finality and power in her words. Something about the way she said "if youre lucky youll never see me again" was eerie and Faustian. This feels like the moment Bojack sold his soul but it feel almost literal with the way Angela dominates him with soothing, demanding lies.
When your life is going good, you won't know who your real freinds are.
When your life starts falling apart, then you'll know who your real friends are.
To add to the tragedy of it all, she was gay too... but kept it secret due to fear of also getting fired.
"If you threat them to walk, they will listen to you", yeah sure.
Didn't he think that Bojack's power was little compared to the one of the executives?, or That he could have been easily fired as well as him if he had supported him?
Or maybe Herb was right, that Bojack really had enough power to scare the executives, but he didn't think that they could think in a way to intimidate or scare him.
However, I don't think so because unfortunately, executive meddling has existed and they don't care about the entertainment quality as long as they get more money.
They can even change the main actors without care
Perhaps he was not thinking clearly. Later on he is no longer mad but Bojack never comes with apology. Realistically thining shows like Horsin around were coming to the end of their eras and were a dime in a dozen.
turns out she was bluffing after all
@@johnmcfarlane3147 That's what the writers decided to put in the script, to put that in the end Bojack is the only one to blame.
Rip Herb
Jeez I can’t believe she was just bluffing
It ain’t show friends, it’s show business.
No matter what his decision are/were, Bojack still lose either way.
Had he chose to walk the talk, Angella would've been the only loser
@@falconeshield doesn't matter he didn't know that
hm does anyone blame angela here? like i get the making her out to be a villain angle in this scene but, the more I think about it, shes really actually just doing her job. After all, it is a business. This is a really really hard situation for all three of them to be honest.
I don't blame Angela like it's her fault for creating the politics that got Herb fired, but you can 100% blame her for playing by/enforcing the politics.
@Mullerornis so, it wouñd have been better for her to get fired, so they can just choose another guy or girl to do the exact same thing?
Before episode 14, I could get Angela. Entertainment is a business and you gotta make really tough decisions. In Angela's case, even if she didn't care what Herb was doing, she had to do it because of the backlash Herb was facing due to his sexual orientation.
After episode 14, no. Angela is a massive villain for basically lying to BJ about the entire situation. With that revelation, no wonder BJ hates executives. If Angela never pulled that on him, he would still have a stable friendship with Herb.
@@mario167100 That's how execs work. They aren't beholden to law to be truthful. Executives will bullshit to get you to stay, especially if they are a big bread winner, at least until they don't need you anymore. Herb was a shitty friend for putting Bojack in this situation, and then getting butthurt that Bojack chose business over him. A friend who wants to be a detriment to your aspirations is not a friend, even if they helped you get there. Bojack was shitty for not staying in touch and not apologizing. In the end, it's entirely Herb's fault for his public indecency. No one would have likely cared if he kept his homosexual actions behind closed doors.
@@harpiessnow heck even would have got in trouble for doing with the opposite gender in a public area
There was no win for Bojack here
And then she had the gall to say he did this of his free will
Ugh that pantsuit lol
If Only Bojacks parents weren’t monsters then Bojack maybe would’ve made better choices, and had a better life.
Saddest part is, Herb did understand. The betrayal wasn't in staying on the show, the betrayal was in not maintaining the friendship afterwards.
In a situation like this , it's like making a decision : your friend or fame.
She's basically acting like Beatrice and Bojack just freezes
I... hate how I can be mad at BoJack for this. The lack of a backbone with Angela, I can understand. Even though she bluffed, it makes sense that BoJack would buy it. His mother instilled a severe lack of self worth in him since he was a child saying stuff like "Nobody cares how you feel. You have an audience out there and they want to hear you sing." And Herb would have understood, too. But it wasn't even being betrayed that he was angry over, it was being abandoned. Herb ended up accomplishing more without the show, and BoJack despite not having anything to do for 18 whole years after Horsin' Around ended never even made an effort to reach out to his former friend. And that's gotta be the saddest thing out of all of this. BoJack really has no one to blame but himself. Not even when he learned about the bluff because it isn't like Herb or Angela was responsible for him ruining the show’s legacy.
“Wait a minute this isn’t the bar! I gotta fire my assistant!” WOW that line just hit me… Herb.. the assistant.. was fired. By Bojack. Unknowingly. Fucking.. ouch.
The worst thing BoJack did to Herb wasn't just backstabbing him. It was backstabbing him and then avoiding him for 20 years.
Knowing what we know now, that she was bluffing and totally would've caved if Bojack had stuck to his guns, I can't help but appreciate little details like her preparing a coffee for that whole talk, just to throw it in the trash at the end.
Looks like she was employing a business meeting trick, giving herself something to do with her hands, so she wouldn't come across as nervous.
If only Bojack remembered he started from nothing like Herb and walked with Herb things may went differently. For better or worse. They could have started charities together. Wrote books, Pushed the rest of the cast of Horsin Around to pursue different endeavors. Also key in the fact Angela only wanted Herb gone and keep Bojack. She didn't point a gun to his head and said he must cut communications with Herb. And there was no contract written that states he shouldn't associate with Him. He could have chatted up with Herb and discussed what went on in that room. Not like they bugged his phone. Or maintained communication with his Friend.
She didn't even drink that
They should of called the last episode
Bojack Horseman: the Bojack Horseman story the final chapter
Yeah, i thought that too
Bojack Horseman doesn't have villians. Only people who have been affected by the actions of others that make them do the things they do, but I think Angela is probably one of the characters that is a legit villain.
The villains of the show are only villains because we don’t know their past
Angela is an ironic name for her
What a waste of coffee.
Knowing that she was bluffing hard changes the way this scene feels
It's funny because something like this happened in real life, but with a differe t outcome. Frank Darabont, the showrunner for season 1 of "The Walking Dead" was fired by AMC during the making of season 2. Jeffrey Demmun (the actor who played Dale in the show) was a very good friend of Darabont and angry, decided to leave TWD in support of his pal. I find that very admirable.
Another thing Bojack could have done is when he visited Herb is don't reopen any wounds and just spend as much time with him as possible; I think Herb would have taken that better as an apology.
herb should have attack bojack
Bojack should have just destroyed her here.
easier said than done
Disco Volante I won’t mess around, I would do the same as Bojack. If some big producer dangles my dreams right in my face, told me I could make it big if I just throw a friend under... I would probably do it.
I just want to see a more romantic bravado in fiction.
She made a cup of coffee and didn't even drink any
That's too much man! Yowza-Yowza-Bobowza! I can't believe they did this to Herb and Bojack went with it.
Whats even worse is that bojack held all the cards here and lost. If he walked the show would’ve been done. He had all the leverage.
Notice the detail where she prepare her coffee, stirs it up and at the end if spouting this toxic ultimatum she doesn't even take a zip, just chucks it in the bin.
it's such a horrible mentality to have. "if herb was your good friend he would understand" yet herb actually took that all in, to him having bojack as a friend was enough. yet bojack being him, had to indulge in selfish guilt and distanced herb for his own comfort. then he did the exact same thing when he tried to apologize. it's all for his own comfort. to make himself feel better, but i don't think he himself even realize that, probably thinks that he's being a "good person"
Oh , she threw away a large cup of coffee
damn she didn't let him have a rebuttal, that's what was trapping Bojack from going through with his actions
It's this moment that makes me unable to root for Bojack as a character; sure his antics are fun to watch, but when he tells Wanda in season 2 'my life was ruined by a network executive like you' he's shifting the blame for his own guilt onto her, when the final decision was in HIS hands the whole time. If he had stood with Herb, the network might have caved, because Horsin' Around was still a huge hit. But all the executive had to do was dangle the possibility of Secretariat in front of him and he ditched Herb so fast.
I mean ultimately what would you do know situation I know you would like to say oh I would be a good friend stand up for herb but in reality if you were in a position I'm not sure you would do that anybody would like to be the person who roots for herb but that's the right thing but most of us would do what Bojack did and do nothing..
I just noticed she never even drank from the cup. She got it just as a prop while she was talking
Herb understood it. I‘m sure of that. He would have forgiven him, if he didn’t abandon him afterwards like nothing. Never thought of contacting him over the phone or well sent some Christmas cards, any kind of effort could have saved their friendship. He was his first real friend, and he left Herb after causing him heart felt pain. Todd came later and got the rock opera destroyed because Bojack didn’t want to be alone, even though he didn’t treat him equally for the company . Diane was his unhealthy trauma bond partner in many situations , he put the „save me“-weight that almost destroyed everything for her on her shoulders. Mr Peanut Butter was to positive to be destroyed by him in any way, that’s why he’s the only one that stayed. All of them had good moments with him which will always connect them, but they deserve so much better than that.
no he lying he wouldn't have
She wasted coffee.
I think that part of the reason Bojack caved is that this situation reminded him of when his mother said that he better make something of himself to make up for all the pain he caused her.
This is partially why Bojack was motivated to choose career advancement over his best friend. What Bojack didn't realise or perhaps even appreciate, is that unlike Beatrice, Herb actually cared for him and loved him. That is the tragedy of this scene.