@@jlieske88 it's very hard when you are on the wrong and you know you can never apply what you learned with that person. The good thing is if you truly regret it you'll be more careful with other people.
It was too late to apologize but it wasnt too late to still be friends. Had bojack left when herb went to bed or even after bojack saying he was sorry, he probably wouldve been welcome to visit the next day. Herb told diane and bojack he needed to go to bed which is a very polite way of saying “its not that i dont enjoy your company but i need you to leave” vs the “now get the fuck out of my house” aka youre not welcome here.
Ironically he ended up beating cancer but died because he was allergic to peanuts and ran into a peanut truck, which is like the stupidest thing ever because it seems like something that would be important but its actually just trivia tier info because of how little it mattered to the plot, which is probably the joke and speaks to how crazy life really is.
If you ask me, choosing to not forgive someone is usually frowned upon. We are usually taught to "forgive and forget" and that doing the opposite is childish and unacceptable.
No Name+ In most cases you would be correct but there are ppl like Bojack who use the idea of forgiveness to take advantage of others. Bojack isn't sorry he just wants absolution which he doesn't deserve just because his old friend has cancer
I marathoned first season and by God! This show is great. I kind of...see myself in Bojack. Which is depressing. I expected things to work out like in a sitcom too. I thought that people forget what you say, but no... I once advised drunkards to stop with addiction and they called me a priest ever since. I was careless with words at thejob and people didn't forget them. I am slowly growing up, for real.
You do know this is also a drama, meaning that's not always going silly slapsticks and people making jackasses of themselves. It also suppose to be serious, just like the harsh bitter reality of life.
“I feel bad about what happened.” That’s not an apology Bojack. You have to be willing to admit the horrible thing you did and make an honest effort to atone and improve.
So just say verbatim "I admit I was a terrible person and that I did a terrible thing"? Come on. That's ridiculous. Also, given that Herb didn't want Bojack in his life anyway, why should he even have bothered to "make an honest effort to atone and improve"? Regardless of how Bojack approached it, Herb would never let him in again to his life.
@@Checkmate1138 he could have excepted that Herb didn’t want to forgive him instead of trying to force him too, then maybe Herb would have let him visit him a few more times before he died since he generally did have a good time with Bojack that day. You can still be friendly to someone without forgiving them
I kinda don't blame for Herb not forgiving Bojack. I feel like Bojack was only apologizing to make himself feel better. Plus, Bojack shouldn't expect Herb to forgive him after 20 freakin' years.
It was still not only wring not to forgive him, but he only does that so bojack suffers. I don't care how awful bokack was, that makes him a huge dick.
Yeah but like Herb said, he's not going to be better since he is dying. While I can see where both are coming from, whether they are right or wrong ultimately depends on how we define these concepts.
I realize what BoJack did wrong was: he did not realize what he needed to be sorry for. BoJack assumed Herb was upset about losing his career. What Herb cared about losing was a friend. When Herb was outed, everybody shunned him, including BoJack, who cared more about his career a cheesy, sitcom actor than he did about his own friend. Herb wanted BoJack to understand that you can get a new career, but a friendship is something more valuable, and you can't mend it with a few perfunctory apologies. BoJack, being selfish, didn't understand that, and I believe that was the reason why Herb didn't forgive him.
Despite all that you have listed, Herb has had a good life, he wasn't totally ruined, he made new projects, kept old and new contacts, he became rich. However I understand your point, Bojack only came to apologize because he Just wanted to feel better with himself and expecting someone could tell him something like he is a good person or that he can be a better one or that it is not late to. However, it can be seen later that Herb was right in not forgiving him.
Oh, that's it? Are you sure Herb still isn't sore about getting rejected by BoJack? I mean I don't know what the deal is with insecure rich elites in tv shows, but that crap is just petty. Herb worked in Hollywood for years and been around the writing room chop block before. To think that he would be completely oblivious to anti-gay politics in the 90s is absurd. This type of stuff has been around for years so I don't see why Bojack has to be the one to suffer for it. Herb knew how unreliable BoJack was and how disappointing to him he can be. Oh, and what is so different from what Herb did and what you hear about people such as that Hank guy in the show? Why did herb call BoJack when he was so close to death or something? He would know how the sad horse is, so of course, he would call him on the phone like a rejected fish and bitch him out because that what people like him do. He just was expecting this type of conversation. Besides, Herb wouldn't be where he is at without the help of bojack too. So fuck him, and the horse rode in on.
^ Uh...still doesn't excuse Bojack for abandoning him as a friend, buddy. That's like saying, "Well, he asked for it". Sure, this might've been a moment of emotional masturbation for Herb and could've been handled better, but that doesn't dismiss his logic.
I absolutely ADORE this scene, even after all this time. As someone who is prone to apologizing and letting others walk all over me, it’s so vindicating watching Herb outright denying Bojack’s apology. Like, he didn’t even pretend to accept it (like I sometimes do), he just straight up told him “No. I don’t forgive you. Forgiving you isn’t going to make ME feel better, so why should I?” I wish I had even half of that conviction to just straight up tell someone, “No, FUCK YOU, you hurt my feelings and I’m still not over it, and I don’t know if I ever will be. Goodbye.”
@@Carl-ld5jy no he is in the right. Bojack did smth shitty and wanted to apologise to make himself feel better. Herb didn't accept it and he dropped the f-bomb of the season which is obviously used in this show when things get really serious
@GillyGabes I get now that he thinks that all adult animation is gross out humor and wants to be like Family Guy, not this one as it's more sospisticated
facts. i remember watching this show for the first time, it was entertaining but it was very family guy esque (i think the first few eps even had cutaways) then this scene hit like a brick
"So you're apologizing." "Yes. I'm sorry." "Okay. I don't forgive you." "Dude, I said I'm sorry!" "Yeah, I heard you." "Well then stop being mad at me!" "I'm not mad at you; I'm done with you." Herb's calm lack of forgiveness for Bojack's hurtful actions carry a very "Josh is Done" vibe to them.
@@papasscooperiaworker3649 I think it's referring to Drake & Josh were they had a huge fight. Don't remember the episodes name tho but it's pretty infamous for it
I like to think that bojack as he is now, would say, “I am sorry for abandoning you. You don’t have to forgive me, I just want to give the choice to forgive me. Whatever you decide, I just want you to know I am sorry.”
Bojack at the end of the series would have handled this better. Maybe they could have kept hanging out, and they could have been close until Herbs dying day. Herb doesn't have to forgive Bojack, and he probrably never would, but he clearly enjoyed his company for the day. Then again, Bojack at the end of the series might not be quite the same if he hadnt heard this from Herb.
@@OperationOmegaOne Diane: I feel like if we met each other as the people we are now, things would be totally different for us MR PB: Yeah, but if we hadn't met each other until now, we wouldn't be the people we are today
What's pretty neat is that he actually does have a conversation like this in his final dialogue with Diane. Both conversations mirror each other very closely, with the distinct difference that BoJack doesn't try to push Diane to forgive him like he did with Herb. He understands that Diane will probably never talk to him again, and instead of pushing, he respects her boundaries. Considering how this scene with Herb is pretty much the first major instance in the show where we see how BoJack's selfish nature has affected others in his life, it's very fitting how his last talk with Diane in the last episode has a similar feel, but different to signify how BoJack has changed since this moment.
They say you must forgive in order to move on. But that's not always true. Herb moved on just fine without forgiving Bojack, he didn't need to forgive him for turning his back on him in order to live a happy life, and he's come to terms with that. However Bojack wasn't able to move on because he couldn't forgive himself. Do I think Bojack meant he was sorry? Well yeah, but he doesn't know why he's sorry. He thought up until that point it was his career he was upset over, but Herb was just more interested in having his friend, and when someone you trusts pushes you aside for material wealth and personal vanity, well that's not forgivable. I think Herb was happy he saw that Bojack finally realizes how important the people you care about are the older you get, and how fame and fortune bring you nothing but sorrow when you have no one to share it with. So...........no. I don't think Herb not forgiving Bojack was wrong. He didn't need to.
I agree with Herb, there are some things in life you have zero obligation to forgive someone for. Cutting out toxic people and not forgiving is frowned upon in TV, that's why Bojack thinks this is so subversive, but in reality it's reasonable.
Thing I like about bojack is that the show calls him out on his shitty behavior and the show doesn't forgive him for it. It doesn't sugar coat anything and doesn't protect him when he does something shitty. The people in bojacks life have a right to not apologize to him. He's a terrible person.
Yet another case of “you only acknowledge me when you need something”. In this case Bojack only apologized to rid himself of guilt and hopefully make himself less depressed. He had 20 years to contact Herb and he waited till now because this is literally his last chance
I love that fuck is only used once per series. really gives it massive emphasis each time, and given the parallels in the second series, makes me wonder if they planned that far ahead, even as they were writing the first
+Jack Bonney with the second series you have bojack feeling like he wanted to fix things in the episode still broken feeling he could make things right knowing he only came to herb house for forgiveness in the season 1 episode
Most people say that it is intentional that the word "fuck/fucking" is used only once per season. People who say the magic word cut ties with Bojack but others say that it means that he broke something that can never be fixed.
i guess you have not seen Duckman, Spawn TAS, The Maxx, MTV's Aeon Flux and Cowboy Bebop which are adult animations shows before family guy and are better than FG
How I wish it went: Herb: "So you're apologising." Bojack: "Yes... I'm sorry." Herb: "Okay, I don't forgive you." Bojack: "...I thought so... And that's okay. You're right. So long, Herb." -leaves- But of course, Bojack has to fuck it up for himself... God this show likes to kick you in the feels.
That is correct. Bojack is one of those types who assumes that everything screwed up in his life can be resolved in the 21 min. runtime of one of his Horsin' Around episodes. Assumes that everyone acts according to the script and doesn't want to invest in the people themselves.
This is funny since, throughout our lives, we are told that we should always forgive people, regardless of what they did. But this is very refreshing, as it tells us that sometimes there are things that simply can't be forgiven. Like betrayal. It's far more realistic, though very disheartening. Something this show does better than any other I can think of.
Rumble Delta Yeah, That's how it should have been, or at least, not saying anything else and leave. However, Bojack had to ruin it even more. Insisting Herb in accepting his apology only showed more his inmaturity and Herb's point for not forgiving him.
Josh Arrubla Bullshit there are some things that can, t be forgiven and that you don,t come back from. I sense an undertone in your comment that you want someone to forgive you for something that you did but they chose not to which makes you angry.
@@illseeyaonthedarksideofthemoon It's not about being happy, it's about remembering what kind of person hurt you and not to allow them to manipulate you to give them what they want.
This was the moment when this show rose above the rest...where it went from 'slightly smarter Family Guy with animal puns/gags' to 'brutal emotional juggernaut that gets better with every episode'. This (along with his final interaction with Charlotte) are just devastating.
Family Guy was decent in the first 5 seasons then it became garbage. It's more like Taxi Driver, Regular Show, The Simpsons (as in 1989 to Behind the Laughter and not Zombie Simpsons which is seasons 12 to now), Duckman, Californication and Daria.
This scene oddly grants me a sense of peace. I was a Herb in a very traumatic point in my life and had someone I thought cared about me manipulate me and abuse me for years. And I couldn’t talk to anyone about it without a barrage of guilt tripping me for staying angry and pressure to forgive this person who abused me. This scene really makes me feel less alone in that I’m allowed to remain upset at a person who destroyed my sense of trust and friendship, and I hope the weight of their decisions haunt them for the rest of their fucking life.
I may not watch the series (I read about this on TV Tropes), but I have to say that Herb was fully correct on everything. It's not just the fact Bojack ended up costing him his job: He flat out abandoned him for twenty years and only came back when he found out Herb was dying and wanted to have his forgiveness before he dies. He could had easily had gotten it a lot earlier by acting like a true friend, but he didn't. Heck, even if Bojack never came to him to apologize, he would had passed away happy anyway: He had a good life, and most likely found true friends. He clearly showed he wasn't going to just waste it waiting around for a friend that sold him out, and an apology that probably would had never have came if it weren't for the fact he was dying from cancer. This shows that if your not going to get an apology if someone wrecks your life or does something just as bad: Just move on, don't wait for them to come to apologize, and live out your life without them.
While that may be true: It's ultimately Herb's choice. And I think Bojack should had apogolized earlier, and not when he's dying. Being a better man isn't going to stop Herb from dying, unfortunately.
LovelyCinccino Mr. Peanutbutter is actually a way better person than Bojack and that is what makes Bojack so jealous. This is why they are good rivals.
The worst part about this is that even after Herb rejected the apology, it could still have turned out alright if BoJack had simply accepted that. He could have just said something like "I get that, and you don't have to forgive me, I just wanted you to know I'm sorry", and then maybe their friendship might have been salvageable from that. But BoJack just can't help himself. Instead of realizing Herb is right, he *demands* his forgiveness. He feels entitled to it just for making a simple apology, probably reinforcing Herb's belief that BoJack isn't actually sorry, he just wants to be able to stop feeling bad about what he did. It's something that comes up again and again in the show. BoJack seems to think that simply acknowledging how bad his behaviour is actually excuses him from trying to do better and then he gets upset when people still try to hold him accountable for it.
It's like those dumb stories about bullies going to their victims to apologize your not sorry for what u did u want to make yourself feel better for your shitty behavior
I’ve given this sort of speech to former friends, my exes, former directors, producers, teachers, and co-performers who either stabbed me in the back or walked out on me. Many of them had the audacity to come back later (sometimes years later) with a fake apology, or a non-apology and actually expect forgiveness. I’ve told them similar to what Herb told BoJack, and it actually felt satisfying. Some people shouldn’t be forgiven, because they just want it to feel better about themselves and to justify their pattern of shitty behavior. I’ve only forgiven a few people in my life because they honestly did deserve it.
This is such a perfect example of how narcissists only try and “apologise” and get closure from things so THEY can feel better. Not to actually let somebody know you are sorry for the harm you caused
I really really love this scene SO MUCH. Apologizing doesn’t fix anything especially if you’re expecting forgiveness. The expectation of forgiveness means you’re just looking to move on from it. You haven’t actually thought about what you did that was wrong. You just dont like that other person being upset with you. This was a damn good way for this scene to go
Such a powerful scene, as someone who's experienced something like this first hand. Sometimes you just gotta accept that if you fuck up then don't expect forgiveness. Time doesn't heal all wounds, and people will have the right to not forgive how you've hurt them no matter how long you've known them.
I do think Stanley Tucci would of made a great Bolivar trask had fox pick him for the part but I don't mind Peter Dinklage as he shown he can fight in Elf
Finally, a show where the characters ACTUALLY HAVE TO SUFFER CONSEQUENCES instead of getting away with all the bad things that they do while getting no comeuppance for it(looking at you Modern Spongebob, MLP FIM, ICarly, ETC.)
I remember that in another series (I don't want to name it, but you can guess), the topic about unforgiveness was treated in an episode, and things went from bad to worse, even the creator has acknowledged that the episode was the worst and shouldn't have existed. Even though it is still depressing, in Bojack Horseman handled it better.
giving an apology just to make yourself feel better is the most unsincere,shitty,disrespectful,selfish thing you could do to a person you've hurt, it's not about the words or message that counts, words are meaningless without action, it's better to just leave the person alone if you're not going to try and make up for the time you've wasted, not all misunderstandings and break ups(in this case their friendship) need closure
This somewhat reminded me of myself, at least in Herb’s perspective. In the sense that I have let people walk all over me most of my life, and still continue to do so a lot of the time, hearing him say flat out “No, I don’t forgive you. You don’t get to use me like a prop to make yourself feel better.” Hit so hard
i like how they had such a good time with each other before this point. i think herb really was happy to see bojack again, but that still doesn't change what bojack did
This hits close (of course not having cancer) I had a very toxic group that I delt with for too long. I was pregnant and excited to be a mom but with their needs and wants and problems they always put on me. With the stress and frequent panic attack killed my only chance. I had a miscarriage within my 2nd month of pregnancy. When I lost my child they abandoned me and left me in the dirt. 4 or 5 months past by and they try to get back in contact with me and "apologized". But like Herb here I didn't forgive them and stood my ground. I'm getting through the lost of a child but it will be like this. What's the lesson here? Know who's real and who's fake
This scene actually taught me that sorry doesn’t just cure all. As a person of faith, I’m obliged to forgive, but there are some people who I still will never accept an apology from. Actions have consequences.
All bojack had to say was, "I'm sorry, Betraying you was the worst decision I ever made in my entire life, I know I don't deserve your forgiveness and i'm not looking for it. But you were the best thing that ever happened to me, and I need you to know that a day hasn't gone by where I didn't regret my decision." If he had really apologized and just accepted the fact that herb would never forgive him, Herb might have viewed for Bojack differently.
It's not just the way he apologized. It's the thing he did. No matter what he said now, nothing would change. Herb still wouldn't be willing to forgive him.
What I like about Herb it shown after losing his show horsing around he still had a good life and made a name for himself well Bojack sat on his bitter ass and acting like his life could work like TV can even when it cant
This scene still echos into now, even when he meets Angela again, she and discovers that Blue-ray DvD. It hurts, it really hurts to see that Bojack royally screwed the best relationship with a friend. The only man that ever truly cared about him.
«The only man that ever truly cared about him.» Don't forget Mister Peanutbutter. It's definitely a different relationship admittedly that formed after his success. And borders on obssessiveness at some points. But he always stayed with Bojack until the very end, despite (at least I think) deep down knowing who Bojack is.
All Bojack had to say was “that’s completely fair”, because that would have shown Herb that Bojack understood WHY what he did was wrong. But, unfortunately, Bojack couldn’t see it.
It is an amazing scene, because it is one of the first episodes to show how bojack is not about happy endings. Also, this is the season's only f-bomb, and it was used so wisely.
There's only one every season, and it's powerful how they're used. Each one is dropped by someone who is officially cutting ties with Bojack. Herb kicks him out, Charlotte's trust in BJ is gone, and Todd is done with BJ screwing things up and then expecting people to feel sorry for him.
Que A Who knows...Bojack stalking Penny has got to have forboden consequences, perhaps a stronger more "deadly" meeting with Charlotte in the future; Todd, it's a big mystery, it's the first Todd moment we've had since his improv arc and even his rock opera so who knows
The shittiest part about all of this is that herb is 100 percent right and has every right to not forgive bojack, in most shows the person who doesn't forgive is seen as the "bad guy" but in bojack; Bojack is seen as the "bad guy" in this scene cause herb was right he only did it for himself
Had a moment like this last week, and For once it was a moment where I related to a character more than Bojack in this show. Being abandoned by people you thought you were friends with is an incredibly shitty feeling, and it’s surreal having that “wow, you haven’t changed” moment of clarity when trying to rekindle an estranged friendship.
I watch this scene whenever people try to make me feel bad for not forgiving my abusive step-mother. Herb makes me feel so vindicated. I’ve had many half-assed “apologies” from her for abusing me over the years, only for her to do the same shit over and over again. No, I will never forgive her.
Unlike most people, I didn't find season one Bojack to be bad. It wasn't great, but it was alright. This is where the show really started to try hard. And, fuck, it got really goddamn good after this.
Well, the first few episodes in particular were sub-bar compared to pretty much the entire rest of the series. It's a shame, because I've had several people drop it after the first few episodes, because up to that point it gives off a somewhat different impression and didn't show its ability to get that serious if it wants to. Then again, since as of writing this comment (yours has been submitted before the final season), I'd say I'd rather have the first few episodes give off a more stereotypical 'funny cartoon horse' impression than the last few episodes be any less perfect than they were. The whole series had a pretty high writing quality throughout the whole series, and an absolutely great ending. So overall, this show is still phenomenal.
I think that's a misconception. The critics gave it lukewarm reviews but many of them admitted that if they had watched the whole season they would have reviewed it much higher. Most fans like all of the seasons. I think the first season is great all the way through... the first few episodes set the scene, and then it starts to explore deeper territory. I also seem to remember it having a lot of the best jokes.
It's always been my belief it's not that the first season is bad it's that the rest of the series is just so good that it pales in comparison. And so people hype up the show because they've seen the later seasons and for newcomers they watch the first season and are immediately let down because they don't realize what we were talking about.
I think we all needed this. I was like harshly bullied in school for my hair and my accent. Constantly told racist things. Kids tried to like ig save their conscience after it started to not be funny anymore to be racist and it was bad for their image. I didn’t fuckin forgive them. Too bad 🤷🏽♀️
If there’s one thing I learned from Bojack Horseman, it would be to never be like Bojack. :P In fact, even if we’re given a lot of context about why Bojack is how he is, I don’t even know whether to call Bojack a protagonist or an antagonist at this point. Overall, this is definitely one of my favorite moments in this series; Herb’s delivery of the F-word is simply perfect and fitting and is exactly what Bojack deserved in this context.
Like thehermit said, but to be more specific, antagonist is basically just an obstacle for the protagonist. The obstacle can be anything, a person, a feeling, a memory, a place- and the protagonist can also be anything, even a pos whos hard to sympathize with. Protagonist just means the main character or the person of focus in a story, doesnt mean he has to be good. The word you're looking for is villain.
One of the most depressing and realistic shows out there this moment alongside Todd and bojacks friendship breaking up were the most deep moments in the show
In my last year of college, I had a fight with one of my best friends. It changed everything between us for the rest of the year until we graduated and we haven't really spoken since. Even if I were to go and apologize to him, I don't think he would forgive me because I think he really labeled me as a bad person for doing the shitty thing that I did, just like how Herb never forgave Bojack.
Don't worry, in life these kind of things happen, some friends are still with you, others leave either in a good or bad note. Life goes on, so don't force a meeting with them. When the chance to see them again appears, it is up to you to decide what you want to do. Of course, don't expect like Bojack forgiveness if you want to apologize. You can do it and it is nothing bad, but forgiveness will depend on your ex friend. Just feel good that you have the guts to take a piece of the humble pie. If your friend doesn't forgive you, then don't insist, just say ok and goodbye.
A similar thing happened to me recently, but it was with a few online friends. Thing is, I can't feel sorry for what has happened as much as I wanted to, because the more I thought about it, the more I came to realize that they were expressing typical toxic behavior. They expressed it before, several times, to other people, but I didn't pay attention. I didn't want to believe it at first. I wanted to keep being their friend, but I knew that if I did, it would only spell disaster. It was so hard for me to accept that I may have never been in the wrong because I wanted to feel guilty. I wanted to feel like I could apologize and make amends if I could, but there was nothing for me to amend besides my own 'doormat' tendency when it came to conflict. Long story short, I cut them off entirely. I'm sure that by stressing over them for a couple months straight, I decreased my lifespan by some number of years. Life's too short to try and make peace with 'friends' that stabbed you in the back multiple times. It's best to move on and find people who won't. There are troubles in life not worth the effort of mending if the patchwork is meager at best. Sometimes, you just gotta ditch the rag and look for something more durable, and perhaps better looking. I hope that whatever has happened, you aren't letting it drag you down as you try to move on from it. It's okay to let go to make room for better people and better things. Best wishes to you.
I’ve been on both the giving and receiving end of this speech. I’ve had people come to me for closure after abandoning me or other awful things for their own gain and I’ve had to tell them it was too late. But also in mental health episodes I’ve said things that couldn’t be taken back that led to me receiving this speech from ex-friends. Unlike Bojack in the rest of the series, I managed to use the lack of forgiveness as a motivator to actually get help and become a better person, and learn how to balance my mental health issues and not use them as a crutch to expect forgiveness for awful things. I think Bojack is the perfect representation of an individual who can’t realize that and is desperately clawing for validation that even with the awful things he does he’s still a good person and is forgiven and absolved of wrongdoing. It was awesome to see that in a show, especially an (adult) animated series.
This kind of falls into that similar category, of why you shouldn’t piss off old people… Be you old, terminally ill, have nothing to lose, or everything to lose the less anything becomes a deterrent… Not prison, not death, not one’s reputation, or even legacy matters at a certain point.
the victim got on fine without forgiving, forgiveness is just a foolish concept made up by spineless weaklings who want to welcome the ones who wronged them back in their lives with open arms, it is a consequence repellent
@@PhoenixRising87 I think the correct concept of forgiveness have being really twisted by media and is the kind Bojack so desperately want, honestly besides Bojack Horseman there is only another work I have read/play with the right concept. The true concept is "Forgiveness does not mean endorsement" Many people who struggle with forgiveness have been given the advice that they need to “accept” what’s happened and move on. The problem is, terms like “acceptance” are fuzzy and mean different things to different people. Acceptance means acknowledging that you don’t have power or control over the past. You can accept an offense against you without excusing it. "Forgiveness does not require reconciliation" pretty much, forgiveness is for the person who was hurt, is the acceptance, is not about forget, you can’t control your memories, but you can control your attention. here the article nickwignall.com/forgiveness/#:~:text=Forgiveness%20does%20not%20mean%20forgetting,the%20wrongs%20done%20to%20us.
Everything said was true and justified. I've always wanted more characters to not forgive people for their wrongs for really justified reasons many shows haven't when they should have.
"Okay, and I do not forgive u" He wouldnt have forgivrn him anyway. Bojack wasnt sorry avout what he had done, he kust wanted someone to forgive him so he could be better
When I first watched this show, it felt like a hole. A hole of sadness, regrets, and mistakes by each episode, it felt like I was diving deeper and deeper into it. Leaving nothing but a hollow shell of a once good man. This show felt like that.
When I first watched this scene I felt bad for Bojack and thought Herb should let go of the past, but as the shows goes on we see Bojack do even worse things to Charlotte, Penny, Todd, Gina and Sarah Lynn. Now I see what Herb was talking about. Each one he attempts to apologize for what he did to them, but its clearly lips services. If he was really sorry he would stop hurting the people closest to him but instead we get a very clear pattern of destructive behavior. He only apologizes to those he has wronged either because he got caught, to protect his public image or, in this case, make himself feel better and not the other person. He sees life like a sitcom. In a sitcom all disputes between freinds and loved ones are settled with a simple apology and everything gose back to normal. In reality somethings can't easily be fixed (if at all) with an apology. Especially if the other person is only doing it for themselves and not to help the one he hurt heal. The damage also doesn't stay in one episode never to be mentioned again. In reality the damage you inflicted on each other will always be there
This scene reminds me of that time Bojack tried to invite Sarah Lynn on his new show. I think a lot about how Herb was clearly glad to see Bojack initially and wasn't opposed to saying goodbye on good terms. But when Bojack made it clear he only cared about his own feelings and didn't just want to see Herb, Herb was pissed.
I love Herb saying I do not forgive you, but I always wish Bojack had said "And that is fine. I just wanted to say I am sorry, and if you don't forgive me, that is fine. I can't blame you at all"
This is the defining moment where the show says "Alright, now that you're nice and cozy and familiar with the show, we can start presenting what we REALLY wanna show you"
This reminded me of the scene where Captain Walker finally met Colonel Konrad in SpecOps: The Line. Both BoJack and Walker confronted people they admired, hoping to find closure or absolution, only to realize they were never really the protagonists of their story, and that they've been wrecking other people's lives for their own selfish gain. It doesn't help that Herb looks and sounds like Konrad.
Love this scene This is usually what ppl that apologize think Forgiveness it’s not about the guilty person feeling better it’s about the victim having closure
Watched a video once where someone made a theory (or maybe it was an actual fact?) that the word “Fuck” is only said in this show when someone’s really, _truly_ done with Bojack (as in: point of no return). This scene hits even harder when you think of that.
Despite how sad and painful this scene was, its kinda incredibly cathartic to hear those words. “I will never forgive you” is a thought strong on my mind, for reasons i will not say here, but never have i had the chance to say it. So it means alot to hear it in such a genuine way.
With how BoJack's thought process usually goes, he most definitely thought that this would turn out like how it usually does in sitcoms. He apologizes, Herb forgives him. But as we know, real life doesn't work like a sitcom and it's such an oddly good feeling to see Herb outright say that he doesn't forgive him. BoJack betrayed his friend and didn't talk to him for 20 years. Herb was totally in the right here.
i had a situation super similar to this. my (sort of) friend did a really shitty thing to me and a few days later they apologized to me. and without hesitation, i said "Ok, I don't forgive you" and it played out almost exactly like this scene. we're not friends anymore.
My mother had the opposite experience years ago: After 10 years of working for an automotive company non-stop with variable shifts, she ended up being mobbed by the new administration. She fulfilled all requirements for a general manager position, but the new administration considered her too old for the "new age" of business, and she lasted for 4 years under heavy fire (bills give no quarrel) until they had no choice but to fire her and thus pay all her hard earned contract benefits. A few years ago the same asshole who fired her, was looking for her, as he had terminal cancer and wanted to feel at peace with himself before the inevitable. I was against this, as I witnessed how mom used to cry overnight over the harassment at her former workplace. Eventually, mom visited this man and forgave him. She told me that we should hold no resentment in our heart, as it'll make us sick at old age. And now mom is alive, happy and satisfied with her life choices.
@@mollymoonfan5939 «not forgiving people doesnt cause health issues» Well. Holding resentment actually _does_ drag you down mentally, while practicing loving-kindness does the opposite. Forgiveness _can_ help both sides. That said, it won't if it isn't genuine.
@@mollymoonfan5939 So yeah, it won't help if there is no actual, heartfelt forgiveness. (Like in Herb's case.) In fact, it will probably make matters worse if it's 'forced': When it's fake, it just causes more pressure on the one told to forgive since they'll have to make-pretend like they mean it and aren't allowed to speak their opinion honestly.
Yeah, but the thing is that the guy didn't apologize to your mom because he wanted to feel at peace with himself. More power to your mother. At least it wasn't done by someone she trusted or was close to her like Bojack and Herb were supposed to be.
My best friend committed suicide today. I made a mistake a few months ago and he never forgave me. Made me think of this scene, and now watching it stings my soul.
Not sure what was your mistake, but remember what Diane told Bojack after they left (and before Bojack screwed it again), at least you had the guts to apologize.
That's very sad but it's out of your control. You can't be responsible for someone's ability to cope with their life. Your ability to move on depends on not anybody else's forgiveness but your own - forgiving yourself as well as other people. Not as something you say but as something you come to peace with in your mind. That's what allowed me to move on from a relationship where I treated someone badly. It was difficult and took time but it's definitely worth it. I hope you're doing well.
I think this is probably the most important scene in the show. Here we see one of the major themes of the show-actions have consequences and not acknowledging or taking responsibility for that can destroy friendships and lead to years of resentment. You can’t just ask for people’s forgiveness; you have to EARN it.
i watched this entire series in the background so i didnt understand much of everything but this scene hits hard, its early in the series but the impact of it always stays
“Hey, this is a dumb question, but the gay thing and the rectal cancer thing aren't related, are they?” “GET OUT OF HERE!” Never mind. Stupid question. Forget I brought it up!
That’s how you use curse words. Don’t over exaggerate w the amount of times you use it, as it makes it more rewarding when a character uses them to convey they’re truest emotions. And goddamn was this scene good
I love how this shows how "too late" can happen while a person is still alive.
This hits hard
Perfectly said
@@jlieske88 it's very hard when you are on the wrong and you know you can never apply what you learned with that person. The good thing is if you truly regret it you'll be more careful with other people.
Yup
It was too late to apologize but it wasnt too late to still be friends.
Had bojack left when herb went to bed or even after bojack saying he was sorry, he probably wouldve been welcome to visit the next day.
Herb told diane and bojack he needed to go to bed which is a very polite way of saying “its not that i dont enjoy your company but i need you to leave” vs the “now get the fuck out of my house” aka youre not welcome here.
'I'm dying, I'm not gonna feel better, and I'm not going to be you're prop so you can feel better'
You have to believe me I did everything I could
Yeah, then why didn't you call me?
Ironically he ended up beating cancer but died because he was allergic to peanuts and ran into a peanut truck, which is like the stupidest thing ever because it seems like something that would be important but its actually just trivia tier info because of how little it mattered to the plot, which is probably the joke and speaks to how crazy life really is.
@@communistpropaganda3629 Huh? Twenty years, you didn’t call me.
@@arandomladywithabadsleepsc1748 Look I- I- I wanted to but i didn’t think that… *sigh*
I love this scene so so much.
Never in my life, let alone TV, have I heard, "I don't forgive you".
If you ask me, choosing to not forgive someone is usually frowned upon. We are usually taught to "forgive and forget" and that doing the opposite is childish and unacceptable.
No Name+ In most cases you would be correct but there are ppl like Bojack who use the idea of forgiveness to take advantage of others. Bojack isn't sorry he just wants absolution which he doesn't deserve just because his old friend has cancer
@@Somerandomstranger Which isn't always the thing to do.
and never mind him saying that, he goes on and dies without forgiving. That's what's unheard of in shows.
Sometimes forgiveness is out of option, sometimes you're even tempted to forgive someone when the right thing is to not do that.
This is the episode when I knew that Bojack Horseman was a much darker and mature than I first imagined.
I marathoned first season and by God! This show is great. I kind of...see myself in Bojack.
Which is depressing. I expected things to work out like in a sitcom too. I thought that people forget what you say, but no...
I once advised drunkards to stop with addiction and they called me a priest ever since.
I was careless with words at thejob and people didn't forget them.
I am slowly growing up, for real.
This show, realy makes you think.
You do know this is also a drama, meaning that's not always going silly slapsticks and people making jackasses of themselves. It also suppose to be serious, just like the harsh bitter reality of life.
Mine was when he set up his roommate to fail at his Rock Opera
Jarosław Sobiński Well, that’s why this show is so popular. Literally everyone sees themselves in Bojack. That’s why it’s such a masterpiece
“I feel bad about what happened.” That’s not an apology Bojack. You have to be willing to admit the horrible thing you did and make an honest effort to atone and improve.
So just say verbatim "I admit I was a terrible person and that I did a terrible thing"? Come on. That's ridiculous. Also, given that Herb didn't want Bojack in his life anyway, why should he even have bothered to "make an honest effort to atone and improve"? Regardless of how Bojack approached it, Herb would never let him in again to his life.
@@Checkmate1138 he could have excepted that Herb didn’t want to forgive him instead of trying to force him too, then maybe Herb would have let him visit him a few more times before he died since he generally did have a good time with Bojack that day. You can still be friendly to someone without forgiving them
As Todd said, “You can’t keep doing shitty things and feel bad about yourself, like that makes it okay.”
@@Checkmate1138 We shouldn't choose to not do the right thing because we don't gain from it.
Exactly “I’m sorry THAT I HURT YOU” is an apology, feeling bad for yourself is not
I kinda don't blame for Herb not forgiving Bojack. I feel like Bojack was only apologizing to make himself feel better. Plus, Bojack shouldn't expect Herb to forgive him after 20 freakin' years.
+Maya Burgos in life people aren't going to forgive you when you turn your back on theme and sometimes in life you have to live with that
That's true. That's the shitty thing about life.
pretty much
It was still not only wring not to forgive him, but he only does that so bojack suffers. I don't care how awful bokack was, that makes him a huge dick.
Yeah but like Herb said, he's not going to be better since he is dying.
While I can see where both are coming from, whether they are right or wrong ultimately depends on how we define these concepts.
I realize what BoJack did wrong was: he did not realize what he needed to be sorry for. BoJack assumed Herb was upset about losing his career. What Herb cared about losing was a friend. When Herb was outed, everybody shunned him, including BoJack, who cared more about his career a cheesy, sitcom actor than he did about his own friend. Herb wanted BoJack to understand that you can get a new career, but a friendship is something more valuable, and you can't mend it with a few perfunctory apologies. BoJack, being selfish, didn't understand that, and I believe that was the reason why Herb didn't forgive him.
Nathan Seper you say that now but when you live in Hollywood you would never come back from Hollywood.
Despite all that you have listed, Herb has had a good life, he wasn't totally ruined, he made new projects, kept old and new contacts, he became rich.
However I understand your point, Bojack only came to apologize because he Just wanted to feel better with himself and expecting someone could tell him something like he is a good person or that he can be a better one or that it is not late to.
However, it can be seen later that Herb was right in not forgiving him.
u mean when u live in hollywoo
Oh, that's it? Are you sure Herb still isn't sore about getting rejected by BoJack? I mean I don't know what the deal is with insecure rich elites in tv shows, but that crap is just petty. Herb worked in Hollywood for years and been around the writing room chop block before. To think that he would be completely oblivious to anti-gay politics in the 90s is absurd. This type of stuff has been around for years so I don't see why Bojack has to be the one to suffer for it. Herb knew how unreliable BoJack was and how disappointing to him he can be. Oh, and what is so different from what Herb did and what you hear about people such as that Hank guy in the show? Why did herb call BoJack when he was so close to death or something? He would know how the sad horse is, so of course, he would call him on the phone like a rejected fish and bitch him out because that what people like him do. He just was expecting this type of conversation. Besides, Herb wouldn't be where he is at without the help of bojack too. So fuck him, and the horse rode in on.
^ Uh...still doesn't excuse Bojack for abandoning him as a friend, buddy. That's like saying, "Well, he asked for it". Sure, this might've been a moment of emotional masturbation for Herb and could've been handled better, but that doesn't dismiss his logic.
I absolutely ADORE this scene, even after all this time. As someone who is prone to apologizing and letting others walk all over me, it’s so vindicating watching Herb outright denying Bojack’s apology. Like, he didn’t even pretend to accept it (like I sometimes do), he just straight up told him “No. I don’t forgive you. Forgiving you isn’t going to make ME feel better, so why should I?” I wish I had even half of that conviction to just straight up tell someone, “No, FUCK YOU, you hurt my feelings and I’m still not over it, and I don’t know if I ever will be. Goodbye.”
You took this scene completely wrong
@@Carl-ld5jy How?
@@bladabladabloo Herb wasn't supposed to be in the right here, that's the entire irony of it.
@@Carl-ld5jy no he is in the right. Bojack did smth shitty and wanted to apologise to make himself feel better. Herb didn't accept it and he dropped the f-bomb of the season which is obviously used in this show when things get really serious
What a super normal and healthy takeaway from this
This episode is what turned Bojack Horseman from a run-of-the-mill adult cartoon to something truly unique.
Adult animation has always existed before this and the new millenium
@@Johnlindsey289 That- That was not what this comment was saying.
@GillyGabes
I get now that he thinks that all adult animation is gross out humor and wants to be like Family Guy, not this one as it's more sospisticated
facts. i remember watching this show for the first time, it was entertaining but it was very family guy esque (i think the first few eps even had cutaways) then this scene hit like a brick
"So you're apologizing."
"Yes. I'm sorry."
"Okay. I don't forgive you."
"Dude, I said I'm sorry!"
"Yeah, I heard you."
"Well then stop being mad at me!"
"I'm not mad at you; I'm done with you."
Herb's calm lack of forgiveness for Bojack's hurtful actions carry a very "Josh is Done" vibe to them.
Josh is done?
Can you link a video to the second quote? Where's that from?
@@papasscooperiaworker3649 I think it's referring to Drake & Josh were they had a huge fight. Don't remember the episodes name tho but it's pretty infamous for it
God that was a dark EP!
@@y.9645 I think I remember it: Drake made Josh late for an important exam, and Josh just became done.
I like to think that bojack as he is now, would say, “I am sorry for abandoning you. You don’t have to forgive me, I just want to give the choice to forgive me. Whatever you decide, I just want you to know I am sorry.”
Bojack at the end of the series would have handled this better. Maybe they could have kept hanging out, and they could have been close until Herbs dying day. Herb doesn't have to forgive Bojack, and he probrably never would, but he clearly enjoyed his company for the day.
Then again, Bojack at the end of the series might not be quite the same if he hadnt heard this from Herb.
@@OperationOmegaOne Diane: I feel like if we met each other as the people we are now, things would be totally different for us
MR PB: Yeah, but if we hadn't met each other until now, we wouldn't be the people we are today
What's pretty neat is that he actually does have a conversation like this in his final dialogue with Diane. Both conversations mirror each other very closely, with the distinct difference that BoJack doesn't try to push Diane to forgive him like he did with Herb. He understands that Diane will probably never talk to him again, and instead of pushing, he respects her boundaries.
Considering how this scene with Herb is pretty much the first major instance in the show where we see how BoJack's selfish nature has affected others in his life, it's very fitting how his last talk with Diane in the last episode has a similar feel, but different to signify how BoJack has changed since this moment.
@@soulreaverable “Two incredibly accomplished book writers”
Not being able to forgive someone is the cruellest and the most fairest thing that can happen for a person.
+1aundulxaldin Holy crap man, you watch this show too?
DarthWiader
No. I was doing research for something I read on TV Tropes. You a fan of this BH?
1aundulxaldin I am, actually.
They say you must forgive in order to move on. But that's not always true. Herb moved on just fine without forgiving Bojack, he didn't need to forgive him for turning his back on him in order to live a happy life, and he's come to terms with that. However Bojack wasn't able to move on because he couldn't forgive himself. Do I think Bojack meant he was sorry? Well yeah, but he doesn't know why he's sorry. He thought up until that point it was his career he was upset over, but Herb was just more interested in having his friend, and when someone you trusts pushes you aside for material wealth and personal vanity, well that's not forgivable. I think Herb was happy he saw that Bojack finally realizes how important the people you care about are the older you get, and how fame and fortune bring you nothing but sorrow when you have no one to share it with. So...........no. I don't think Herb not forgiving Bojack was wrong. He didn't need to.
1aundulxaldin sometimes its too hard forgive
I agree with Herb, there are some things in life you have zero obligation to forgive someone for. Cutting out toxic people and not forgiving is frowned upon in TV, that's why Bojack thinks this is so subversive, but in reality it's reasonable.
Thing I like about bojack is that the show calls him out on his shitty behavior and the show doesn't forgive him for it. It doesn't sugar coat anything and doesn't protect him when he does something shitty. The people in bojacks life have a right to not apologize to him. He's a terrible person.
Yet another case of “you only acknowledge me when you need something”. In this case Bojack only apologized to rid himself of guilt and hopefully make himself less depressed. He had 20 years to contact Herb and he waited till now because this is literally his last chance
I love that fuck is only used once per series. really gives it massive emphasis each time, and given the parallels in the second series, makes me wonder if they planned that far ahead, even as they were writing the first
+Jack Bonney with the second series you have bojack feeling like he wanted to fix things in the episode still broken feeling he could make things right knowing he only came to herb house for forgiveness in the season 1 episode
Most people say that it is intentional that the word "fuck/fucking" is used only once per season.
People who say the magic word cut ties with Bojack but others say that it means that he broke something that can never be fixed.
Todd said it in season 3, but it looks like unlike the other times it happened he and Bojack are at least starting to patch up their relationship.
Hey Family Guy? This is how you make an "adult" cartoon.
i guess you have not seen Duckman, Spawn TAS, The Maxx, MTV's Aeon Flux and Cowboy Bebop which are adult animations shows before family guy and are better than FG
Johnlindsey289 but family guy still gets so much praise till this day by the majority of people, its ridiculous
Have you seen the other adult animations i mentioned?
Maybe if this show wasn't only on Goddamn Netflix it would have been way more popular!
Dani Coni theres not much excuse not to have netflix, who doesnt have 10 dollars a month to spare?
“I did fine, i had a good life, but what I needed was a friend” has me feeling some type of way
Herb was genuinely happy to see Bojack again, but Bojack had to get validation and ruin it.
How I wish it went:
Herb: "So you're apologising."
Bojack: "Yes... I'm sorry."
Herb: "Okay, I don't forgive you."
Bojack: "...I thought so... And that's okay. You're right. So long, Herb." -leaves-
But of course, Bojack has to fuck it up for himself... God this show likes to kick you in the feels.
That is correct. Bojack is one of those types who assumes that everything screwed up in his life can be resolved in the 21 min. runtime of one of his Horsin' Around episodes. Assumes that everyone acts according to the script and doesn't want to invest in the people themselves.
This is funny since, throughout our lives, we are told that we should always forgive people, regardless of what they did. But this is very refreshing, as it tells us that sometimes there are things that simply can't be forgiven. Like betrayal. It's far more realistic, though very disheartening. Something this show does better than any other I can think of.
Bojack expets life to work out like a sitcom.
Rumble Delta Yeah, That's how it should have been, or at least, not saying anything else and leave.
However, Bojack had to ruin it even more. Insisting Herb in accepting his apology only showed more his inmaturity and Herb's point for not forgiving him.
Josh Arrubla Bullshit there are some things that can, t be forgiven and that you don,t come back from. I sense an undertone in your comment that you want someone to forgive you for something that you did but they chose not to which makes you angry.
What I learned: You don't have to forgive someone that hurt you.
Or Betray You or Leave You Hanging.
.
Yeah, but holding to grudges isn't going to make you happy either.
@@illseeyaonthedarksideofthemoon It's not about being happy, it's about remembering what kind of person hurt you and not to allow them to manipulate you to give them what they want.
@@SCP01986 That's pathetic...
This was the moment when this show rose above the rest...where it went from 'slightly smarter Family Guy with animal puns/gags' to 'brutal emotional juggernaut that gets better with every episode'. This (along with his final interaction with Charlotte) are just devastating.
Family Guy was decent in the first 5 seasons then it became garbage.
It's more like Taxi Driver, Regular Show, The Simpsons (as in 1989 to Behind the Laughter and not Zombie Simpsons which is seasons 12 to now), Duckman, Californication and Daria.
What happened with Charlotte?
This scene oddly grants me a sense of peace. I was a Herb in a very traumatic point in my life and had someone I thought cared about me manipulate me and abuse me for years. And I couldn’t talk to anyone about it without a barrage of guilt tripping me for staying angry and pressure to forgive this person who abused me. This scene really makes me feel less alone in that I’m allowed to remain upset at a person who destroyed my sense of trust and friendship, and I hope the weight of their decisions haunt them for the rest of their fucking life.
This was the first time I knew that bojack would be different from other adult animated shows.
I may not watch the series (I read about this on TV Tropes), but I have to say that Herb was fully correct on everything. It's not just the fact Bojack ended up costing him his job: He flat out abandoned him for twenty years and only came back when he found out Herb was dying and wanted to have his forgiveness before he dies. He could had easily had gotten it a lot earlier by acting like a true friend, but he didn't. Heck, even if Bojack never came to him to apologize, he would had passed away happy anyway: He had a good life, and most likely found true friends. He clearly showed he wasn't going to just waste it waiting around for a friend that sold him out, and an apology that probably would had never have came if it weren't for the fact he was dying from cancer. This shows that if your not going to get an apology if someone wrecks your life or does something just as bad: Just move on, don't wait for them to come to apologize, and live out your life without them.
But forgiving someone after all that and after all Bojack had done to him would have shown he was a better person than Bojack.
While that may be true: It's ultimately Herb's choice. And I think Bojack should had apogolized earlier, and not when he's dying. Being a better man isn't going to stop Herb from dying, unfortunately.
LovelyCinccino Mr. Peanutbutter is actually a way better person than Bojack and that is what makes Bojack so jealous. This is why they are good rivals.
Herb should have forgiven him, its the right thing to do. he only doesn't so bojack suffers.
If you got angry because he didn't forgive (which made me love the scene) watch Amending Fences
The worst part about this is that even after Herb rejected the apology, it could still have turned out alright if BoJack had simply accepted that. He could have just said something like "I get that, and you don't have to forgive me, I just wanted you to know I'm sorry", and then maybe their friendship might have been salvageable from that.
But BoJack just can't help himself. Instead of realizing Herb is right, he *demands* his forgiveness. He feels entitled to it just for making a simple apology, probably reinforcing Herb's belief that BoJack isn't actually sorry, he just wants to be able to stop feeling bad about what he did.
It's something that comes up again and again in the show. BoJack seems to think that simply acknowledging how bad his behaviour is actually excuses him from trying to do better and then he gets upset when people still try to hold him accountable for it.
“You can’t keep doing shitty things and feel bad about yourself like that makes it okay!”
It's like those dumb stories about bullies going to their victims to apologize your not sorry for what u did u want to make yourself feel better for your shitty behavior
I’ve given this sort of speech to former friends, my exes, former directors, producers, teachers, and co-performers who either stabbed me in the back or walked out on me.
Many of them had the audacity to come back later (sometimes years later) with a fake apology, or a non-apology and actually expect forgiveness. I’ve told them similar to what Herb told BoJack, and it actually felt satisfying. Some people shouldn’t be forgiven, because they just want it to feel better about themselves and to justify their pattern of shitty behavior.
I’ve only forgiven a few people in my life because they honestly did deserve it.
This is such a perfect example of how narcissists only try and “apologise” and get closure from things so THEY can feel better. Not to actually let somebody know you are sorry for the harm you caused
Like that jerk evil unforgivable zemo. He also narcissistic too.
I really really love this scene SO MUCH. Apologizing doesn’t fix anything especially if you’re expecting forgiveness. The expectation of forgiveness means you’re just looking to move on from it. You haven’t actually thought about what you did that was wrong. You just dont like that other person being upset with you. This was a damn good way for this scene to go
And that's why I consider herb one of the best characters in this show
You don't have to forgive the person who hurt you. I love that this show validates that.
The delivery of that line(I don't forgive you) gave me a gut punch
he was so matter of fact about it i love it
Such a powerful scene, as someone who's experienced something like this first hand. Sometimes you just gotta accept that if you fuck up then don't expect forgiveness. Time doesn't heal all wounds, and people will have the right to not forgive how you've hurt them no matter how long you've known them.
Facts
One of Stanley Tucci's best roles to date.
I do think Stanley Tucci would of made a great Bolivar trask had fox pick him for the part but I don't mind Peter Dinklage as he shown he can fight in Elf
I've been binge-watching all the films he's in.
Ya
as a matter of fact, we can’t blame or get angry at herb for not forgiving bojack, because bojack completely blew their friendship away.
Finally, a show where the characters ACTUALLY HAVE TO SUFFER CONSEQUENCES instead of getting away with all the bad things that they do while getting no comeuppance for it(looking at you Modern Spongebob, MLP FIM, ICarly, ETC.)
davis smedley
MLP does it because of "friendship"
Those are shows made for small children...
I remember that in another series (I don't want to name it, but you can guess), the topic about unforgiveness was treated in an episode, and things went from bad to worse, even the creator has acknowledged that the episode was the worst and shouldn't have existed.
Even though it is still depressing, in Bojack Horseman handled it better.
Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones say hello
This is what i would have liked to see in Family guy. Meg not forgiving her family and chosing not to be a lightning rod for their character flaws.
It was at this moment that Bojack Horseman went from OK to Great.
giving an apology just to make yourself feel better is the most unsincere,shitty,disrespectful,selfish thing you could do to a person you've hurt, it's not about the words or message that counts, words are meaningless without action, it's better to just leave the person alone if you're not going to try and make up for the time you've wasted, not all misunderstandings and break ups(in this case their friendship) need closure
This somewhat reminded me of myself, at least in Herb’s perspective. In the sense that I have let people walk all over me most of my life, and still continue to do so a lot of the time, hearing him say flat out “No, I don’t forgive you. You don’t get to use me like a prop to make yourself feel better.” Hit so hard
i like how they had such a good time with each other before this point. i think herb really was happy to see bojack again, but that still doesn't change what bojack did
This hits close (of course not having cancer) I had a very toxic group that I delt with for too long. I was pregnant and excited to be a mom but with their needs and wants and problems they always put on me. With the stress and frequent panic attack killed my only chance. I had a miscarriage within my 2nd month of pregnancy. When I lost my child they abandoned me and left me in the dirt. 4 or 5 months past by and they try to get back in contact with me and "apologized". But like Herb here I didn't forgive them and stood my ground. I'm getting through the lost of a child but it will be like this. What's the lesson here? Know who's real and who's fake
I'm very sorry about your baby. Hope you're doing alright.
@rakiahbaker5589 thank you. I'm recovering. It's been months but I know that I will hopefully get a second chance
@@destinyrose3429 That's good to hear 😊
This scene actually taught me that sorry doesn’t just cure all. As a person of faith, I’m obliged to forgive, but there are some people who I still will never accept an apology from. Actions have consequences.
All bojack had to say was, "I'm sorry, Betraying you was the worst decision I ever made in my entire life, I know I don't deserve your forgiveness and i'm not looking for it. But you were the best thing that ever happened to me, and I need you to know that a day hasn't gone by where I didn't regret my decision." If he had really apologized and just accepted the fact that herb would never forgive him, Herb might have viewed for Bojack differently.
It's not just the way he apologized. It's the thing he did. No matter what he said now, nothing would change. Herb still wouldn't be willing to forgive him.
HERB MY FAVORITE CHARACTER IN THIS SERIES.
What I like about Herb it shown after losing his show horsing around he still had a good life and made a name for himself well Bojack sat on his bitter ass and acting like his life could work like TV can even when it cant
This scene still echos into now, even when he meets Angela again, she and discovers that Blue-ray DvD. It hurts, it really hurts to see that Bojack royally screwed the best relationship with a friend. The only man that ever truly cared about him.
«The only man that ever truly cared about him.»
Don't forget Mister Peanutbutter.
It's definitely a different relationship admittedly that formed after his success.
And borders on obssessiveness at some points.
But he always stayed with Bojack until the very end, despite (at least I think) deep down knowing who Bojack is.
This hit me really hard, you must go through something like this to really understand Herb :(
All Bojack had to say was “that’s completely fair”, because that would have shown Herb that Bojack understood WHY what he did was wrong. But, unfortunately, Bojack couldn’t see it.
Best.
Scene.
It is an amazing scene, because it is one of the first episodes to show how bojack is not about happy endings. Also, this is the season's only f-bomb, and it was used so wisely.
Ryan Truex Good usage of swear words.
There's only one every season, and it's powerful how they're used. Each one is dropped by someone who is officially cutting ties with Bojack. Herb kicks him out, Charlotte's trust in BJ is gone, and Todd is done with BJ screwing things up and then expecting people to feel sorry for him.
+EkoGrande does that mean he's lost Todd forever?
Que A Who knows...Bojack stalking Penny has got to have forboden consequences, perhaps a stronger more "deadly" meeting with Charlotte in the future; Todd, it's a big mystery, it's the first Todd moment we've had since his improv arc and even his rock opera so who knows
The shittiest part about all of this is that herb is 100 percent right and has every right to not forgive bojack, in most shows the person who doesn't forgive is seen as the "bad guy" but in bojack; Bojack is seen as the "bad guy" in this scene cause herb was right he only did it for himself
Had a moment like this last week, and For once it was a moment where I related to a character more than Bojack in this show.
Being abandoned by people you thought you were friends with is an incredibly shitty feeling, and it’s surreal having that “wow, you haven’t changed” moment of clarity when trying to rekindle an estranged friendship.
It really shows how forgiveness is a choice
I watch this scene whenever people try to make me feel bad for not forgiving my abusive step-mother. Herb makes me feel so vindicated. I’ve had many half-assed “apologies” from her for abusing me over the years, only for her to do the same shit over and over again. No, I will never forgive her.
That’s the harsh truth,that we have to face the consequences of our actions. That is what makes us a better person.
( but you already get that )
Unlike most people, I didn't find season one Bojack to be bad. It wasn't great, but it was alright. This is where the show really started to try hard. And, fuck, it got really goddamn good after this.
Well, the first few episodes in particular were sub-bar compared to pretty much the entire rest of the series.
It's a shame, because I've had several people drop it after the first few episodes, because up to that point it gives off a somewhat different impression and didn't show its ability to get that serious if it wants to.
Then again, since as of writing this comment (yours has been submitted before the final season), I'd say I'd rather have the first few episodes give off a more stereotypical 'funny cartoon horse' impression than the last few episodes be any less perfect than they were.
The whole series had a pretty high writing quality throughout the whole series, and an absolutely great ending.
So overall, this show is still phenomenal.
I think that's a misconception. The critics gave it lukewarm reviews but many of them admitted that if they had watched the whole season they would have reviewed it much higher. Most fans like all of the seasons. I think the first season is great all the way through... the first few episodes set the scene, and then it starts to explore deeper territory. I also seem to remember it having a lot of the best jokes.
It's always been my belief it's not that the first season is bad it's that the rest of the series is just so good that it pales in comparison. And so people hype up the show because they've seen the later seasons and for newcomers they watch the first season and are immediately let down because they don't realize what we were talking about.
I think we all needed this. I was like harshly bullied in school for my hair and my accent. Constantly told racist things. Kids tried to like ig save their conscience after it started to not be funny anymore to be racist and it was bad for their image. I didn’t fuckin forgive them. Too bad 🤷🏽♀️
If there’s one thing I learned from Bojack Horseman, it would be to never be like Bojack. :P
In fact, even if we’re given a lot of context about why Bojack is how he is, I don’t even know whether to call Bojack a protagonist or an antagonist at this point.
Overall, this is definitely one of my favorite moments in this series;
Herb’s delivery of the F-word is simply perfect and fitting and is exactly what Bojack deserved in this context.
I'd say a more anti hero.
Bojack is a protagonist, the word protagonist doesn't necessarily mean "good guy", he's a flawed, bad protagonist who struggles to be a better person
Like thehermit said, but to be more specific, antagonist is basically just an obstacle for the protagonist. The obstacle can be anything, a person, a feeling, a memory, a place- and the protagonist can also be anything, even a pos whos hard to sympathize with. Protagonist just means the main character or the person of focus in a story, doesnt mean he has to be good. The word you're looking for is villain.
One of the most depressing and realistic shows out there this moment alongside Todd and bojacks friendship breaking up were the most deep moments in the show
It has that Taxi Driver and King of Comedy feel eh?
In my last year of college, I had a fight with one of my best friends. It changed everything between us for the rest of the year until we graduated and we haven't really spoken since. Even if I were to go and apologize to him, I don't think he would forgive me because I think he really labeled me as a bad person for doing the shitty thing that I did, just like how Herb never forgave Bojack.
Andrew Shuboy that's depressing. I hope you could resolve your problem with him. :(
Andrew Shuboy you could apologise anyway knowing that he may never forgive you. I think there is strength in that, hope it gets resolved.
Don't worry, in life these kind of things happen, some friends are still with you, others leave either in a good or bad note. Life goes on, so don't force a meeting with them.
When the chance to see them again appears, it is up to you to decide what you want to do. Of course, don't expect like Bojack forgiveness if you want to apologize. You can do it and it is nothing bad, but forgiveness will depend on your ex friend. Just feel good that you have the guts to take a piece of the humble pie. If your friend doesn't forgive you, then don't insist, just say ok and goodbye.
what did you do
A similar thing happened to me recently, but it was with a few online friends. Thing is, I can't feel sorry for what has happened as much as I wanted to, because the more I thought about it, the more I came to realize that they were expressing typical toxic behavior. They expressed it before, several times, to other people, but I didn't pay attention. I didn't want to believe it at first. I wanted to keep being their friend, but I knew that if I did, it would only spell disaster.
It was so hard for me to accept that I may have never been in the wrong because I wanted to feel guilty. I wanted to feel like I could apologize and make amends if I could, but there was nothing for me to amend besides my own 'doormat' tendency when it came to conflict. Long story short, I cut them off entirely. I'm sure that by stressing over them for a couple months straight, I decreased my lifespan by some number of years. Life's too short to try and make peace with 'friends' that stabbed you in the back multiple times. It's best to move on and find people who won't.
There are troubles in life not worth the effort of mending if the patchwork is meager at best. Sometimes, you just gotta ditch the rag and look for something more durable, and perhaps better looking. I hope that whatever has happened, you aren't letting it drag you down as you try to move on from it. It's okay to let go to make room for better people and better things. Best wishes to you.
I’ve been on both the giving and receiving end of this speech. I’ve had people come to me for closure after abandoning me or other awful things for their own gain and I’ve had to tell them it was too late. But also in mental health episodes I’ve said things that couldn’t be taken back that led to me receiving this speech from ex-friends. Unlike Bojack in the rest of the series, I managed to use the lack of forgiveness as a motivator to actually get help and become a better person, and learn how to balance my mental health issues and not use them as a crutch to expect forgiveness for awful things. I think Bojack is the perfect representation of an individual who can’t realize that and is desperately clawing for validation that even with the awful things he does he’s still a good person and is forgiven and absolved of wrongdoing. It was awesome to see that in a show, especially an (adult) animated series.
This kind of falls into that similar category, of why you shouldn’t piss off old people… Be you old, terminally ill, have nothing to lose, or everything to lose the less anything becomes a deterrent… Not prison, not death, not one’s reputation, or even legacy matters at a certain point.
It's Regular Show meets Californication
Nice
Forgiveness is always misinterpreted. Almost everyone thinks that it is for making feel better the wrong doer, when in truth, it is for the victim.
the victim got on fine without forgiving, forgiveness is just a foolish concept made up by spineless weaklings who want to welcome the ones who wronged them back in their lives with open arms, it is a consequence repellent
Absolutely. And I hate when people assume you have to forgive people. It cheapens the entire concept of forgiveness
@@mollymoonfan5939 Hating someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.
That's not forgiveness; that's "moving on," which can include forgiveness but doesn't have to.
@@PhoenixRising87 I think the correct concept of forgiveness have being really twisted by media and is the kind Bojack so desperately want, honestly besides Bojack Horseman there is only another work I have read/play with the right concept.
The true concept is "Forgiveness does not mean endorsement"
Many people who struggle with forgiveness have been given the advice that they need to “accept” what’s happened and move on. The problem is, terms like “acceptance” are fuzzy and mean different things to different people. Acceptance means acknowledging that you don’t have power or control over the past.
You can accept an offense against you without excusing it.
"Forgiveness does not require reconciliation" pretty much, forgiveness is for the person who was hurt, is the acceptance, is not about forget, you can’t control your memories, but you can control your attention.
here the article nickwignall.com/forgiveness/#:~:text=Forgiveness%20does%20not%20mean%20forgetting,the%20wrongs%20done%20to%20us.
Everything said was true and justified. I've always wanted more characters to not forgive people for their wrongs for really justified reasons many shows haven't when they should have.
"Okay, and I do not forgive u"
He wouldnt have forgivrn him anyway. Bojack wasnt sorry avout what he had done, he kust wanted someone to forgive him so he could be better
When I first watched this show, it felt like a hole. A hole of sadness, regrets, and mistakes by each episode, it felt like I was diving deeper and deeper into it. Leaving nothing but a hollow shell of a once good man. This show felt like that.
When I first watched this scene I felt bad for Bojack and thought Herb should let go of the past, but as the shows goes on we see Bojack do even worse things to Charlotte, Penny, Todd, Gina and Sarah Lynn. Now I see what Herb was talking about.
Each one he attempts to apologize for what he did to them, but its clearly lips services. If he was really sorry he would stop hurting the people closest to him but instead we get a very clear pattern of destructive behavior. He only apologizes to those he has wronged either because he got caught, to protect his public image or, in this case, make himself feel better and not the other person.
He sees life like a sitcom. In a sitcom all disputes between freinds and loved ones are settled with a simple apology and everything gose back to normal. In reality somethings can't easily be fixed (if at all) with an apology. Especially if the other person is only doing it for themselves and not to help the one he hurt heal. The damage also doesn't stay in one episode never to be mentioned again. In reality the damage you inflicted on each other will always be there
This scene reminds me of that time Bojack tried to invite Sarah Lynn on his new show. I think a lot about how Herb was clearly glad to see Bojack initially and wasn't opposed to saying goodbye on good terms. But when Bojack made it clear he only cared about his own feelings and didn't just want to see Herb, Herb was pissed.
I love Herb saying I do not forgive you, but I always wish Bojack had said "And that is fine. I just wanted to say I am sorry, and if you don't forgive me, that is fine. I can't blame you at all"
This is the defining moment where the show says "Alright, now that you're nice and cozy and familiar with the show, we can start presenting what we REALLY wanna show you"
Sad thing is if Bojack actually gave a decent apology then I’m pretty sure Herb would’ve forgiven him
Yeah maybe 20 years ago
Not true. It's not the apology, it was his actions.
@@reoij Yeah, but the shitty apology definitely did not help
This is majestic, these dialogs are gold ♡
I am patiently awaiting the day I can give this speech to my ex wife
Godspeed my freind, I'm until i coukd give it to my mother who abandoned me when I was 3.
I’ve given this speech to many people, but I’ve yet to give it to more people.
she won't be coming lol
Same with me and my younger sister
I always point to this as the exact moment that this show‘s tone takes a dramatic turn.
I know everyone is on his side, but I’m also on Herb’s side. Seriously, that “Now get the f out of my house” is really emotional and real.
Me: Herb
Nostalgia Critic: Bojack
This reminded me of the scene where Captain Walker finally met Colonel Konrad in SpecOps: The Line. Both BoJack and Walker confronted people they admired, hoping to find closure or absolution, only to realize they were never really the protagonists of their story, and that they've been wrecking other people's lives for their own selfish gain. It doesn't help that Herb looks and sounds like Konrad.
I never thought anyone else would get reminded of that scene when I saw this
Love this scene
This is usually what ppl that apologize think
Forgiveness it’s not about the guilty person feeling better it’s about the victim having closure
Damn i remember watching this episode at first. It felt so realistic. There are people out there who won't forgive you no matter how sorry you are.
Watched a video once where someone made a theory (or maybe it was an actual fact?) that the word “Fuck” is only said in this show when someone’s really, _truly_ done with Bojack (as in: point of no return). This scene hits even harder when you think of that.
Despite how sad and painful this scene was, its kinda incredibly cathartic to hear those words. “I will never forgive you” is a thought strong on my mind, for reasons i will not say here, but never have i had the chance to say it. So it means alot to hear it in such a genuine way.
Am 100% with Herb here, shit like that you just can't forgive and some things just can't be forgiven, just gotta live with it
Like in MCU movies and also Pokémon anime too.
With how BoJack's thought process usually goes, he most definitely thought that this would turn out like how it usually does in sitcoms.
He apologizes, Herb forgives him. But as we know, real life doesn't work like a sitcom and it's such an oddly good feeling to see Herb outright say that he doesn't forgive him. BoJack betrayed his friend and didn't talk to him for 20 years.
Herb was totally in the right here.
At the end of the day it's how you feel, and Herb didn't feel like forgiving Bojack.
i had a situation super similar to this. my (sort of) friend did a really shitty thing to me and a few days later they apologized to me. and without hesitation, i said "Ok, I don't forgive you" and it played out almost exactly like this scene. we're not friends anymore.
Three episodes earlier, he tells Diane that closure isn't important. Now we see him seeking closure...
First words BoJack says to Herb in the series: “Get cancer, jerk wad!”
(Episode 4)
as someone who has been both bojack and herb... this really hits
My mother had the opposite experience years ago: After 10 years of working for an automotive company non-stop with variable shifts, she ended up being mobbed by the new administration. She fulfilled all requirements for a general manager position, but the new administration considered her too old for the "new age" of business, and she lasted for 4 years under heavy fire (bills give no quarrel) until they had no choice but to fire her and thus pay all her hard earned contract benefits. A few years ago the same asshole who fired her, was looking for her, as he had terminal cancer and wanted to feel at peace with himself before the inevitable. I was against this, as I witnessed how mom used to cry overnight over the harassment at her former workplace. Eventually, mom visited this man and forgave him. She told me that we should hold no resentment in our heart, as it'll make us sick at old age. And now mom is alive, happy and satisfied with her life choices.
your mum got lucky, not forgiving people doesnt cause health issues nor does forgiveness take them away
@@mollymoonfan5939 «not forgiving people doesnt cause health issues»
Well. Holding resentment actually _does_ drag you down mentally, while practicing loving-kindness does the opposite. Forgiveness _can_ help both sides. That said, it won't if it isn't genuine.
@@mollymoonfan5939 So yeah, it won't help if there is no actual, heartfelt forgiveness. (Like in Herb's case.)
In fact, it will probably make matters worse if it's 'forced':
When it's fake, it just causes more pressure on the one told to forgive since they'll have to make-pretend like they mean it and aren't allowed to speak their opinion honestly.
francisco gerardo hernandez rivera
Now Your Herb Kazaaz against Mom’s Former Boss
Yeah, but the thing is that the guy didn't apologize to your mom because he wanted to feel at peace with himself. More power to your mother. At least it wasn't done by someone she trusted or was close to her like Bojack and Herb were supposed to be.
My best friend committed suicide today. I made a mistake a few months ago and he never forgave me. Made me think of this scene, and now watching it stings my soul.
Not sure what was your mistake, but remember what Diane told Bojack after they left (and before Bojack screwed it again), at least you had the guts to apologize.
That's very sad but it's out of your control. You can't be responsible for someone's ability to cope with their life. Your ability to move on depends on not anybody else's forgiveness but your own - forgiving yourself as well as other people. Not as something you say but as something you come to peace with in your mind. That's what allowed me to move on from a relationship where I treated someone badly. It was difficult and took time but it's definitely worth it. I hope you're doing well.
The point of apologizing isn’t to specificly get forgiveness. But to seek closure in general.
Then it's your fault
I think this is probably the most important scene in the show. Here we see one of the major themes of the show-actions have consequences and not acknowledging or taking responsibility for that can destroy friendships and lead to years of resentment.
You can’t just ask for people’s forgiveness; you have to EARN it.
Ooooooooooooooo! I finally get it! “Care” bear. That’s why the bears are nurses.
Stanley Tucci is such a great actor, having him for this role was perfect casting.
i watched this entire series in the background so i didnt understand much of everything but this scene hits hard, its early in the series but the impact of it always stays
A small thing:
This show uses the work *fuck* beautifully
“Hey, this is a dumb question, but the gay thing and the rectal cancer thing aren't related, are they?”
“GET OUT OF HERE!”
Never mind. Stupid question. Forget I brought it up!
Not every apology can be accepted and this scene is a prime example of that.
That’s how you use curse words. Don’t over exaggerate w the amount of times you use it, as it makes it more rewarding when a character uses them to convey they’re truest emotions. And goddamn was this scene good
Yeah, use them for emphasis. I really felt that, "Now get the FUCK out of my house"
thats why they only had one f bomb per season and it is used to show the relationship is over.
Comedy Central played this uncensored
You know herb might of forgiven bojack if hadn’t come back and tried to force closure
The more I think about this the less sympathy I have for Herb and the more it feels like internalizing Bojack‘s self-hatred.
This scene alone taught me that you just being there for the ones you love is enough and all they need to know that they aren’t alone.