Ridiculous rant by Shiv. He starts off by saying that Indian Army is a circus of various calibers and weaponry....and then goes on to ask why can't each different Army unit be equipped with different rifles for trial. Dafaq?
@@harshalsingh2750 To what effect will the trials be? I do advocate Indian made stuff, but the ship has sailed on the 'Standard issue rifle". Once chosen, ALL units will be equipped with the SAME rifle...that's why it's called 'Standard issue'. This debate should have happened 5 years ago, not now. Shiv is speaking like a ntcase...aka journalist.
When India didn't make aircraft carrier, when India didn't make nuclear subs, when India didn't send a prob to mars, when India didn't send rover on the surface of the moon, *India chose Indian domestically produced all-infantry INSAS! and it has been time proven wrong decision* .
@@beryanbeyaan8047 Did he insult you? Why did you do that? shithead, he is right. Bureaucracy has been india's worst fault... If you dont believe me go and do some filework with them at local tehsils
@@AlphaBeta007 It's not only babus, don't put it all on babus, if our generals say yes to a indigenous weapons, there is no way in hell a babu can block it. Majority of blame for all of this phoren mal fiasco rests with army generals, who surprisingly keep getting gifted apartments in Florida, and foreign scholarships for their undeserving children out of goodness of foreign colleges hearts
only army in the world which came up with genius idea of changing barrel and use both 5.56 and 7.62 with one arm. And also expect frontline soldiers to fiddle around changing this assembly, then figure out how mcuh ammo of each type to carry. and that guy is still struggling to get rid of 'hathiyar mien rok'
The only country 🧐 I can see why your army is pussy footing on choosing a standard for ammo and assaul rifle... You're so inward looking, ease up, will you, learn about the history of small arms a bit more; the Italian ARX160 is a fine modular assault rifle was gonna be your rifle, if Mexico can look outward and come up with a standard rifle (they looked at the German G36 to produce the FX 05 Xiuhcoatl) why not industrial India 🇮🇳
Well the Serbian army has inducted the M19 multi caliber rifle with quick change barrel. But the difference is they have a world class company in the form of Zastava and we have ummm....disappointment... So the Indian army demanded too much too early which even the foreign firms couldn't fulfill at that time.
@@surajbiradar9827 I have always wondered why India can't collaborate with a country like Serbia or Finland (before she went into the fold of Nato) -- their AK's are so damn good, and they are little nations... Couldn't India give them a good deal to develop her own AK variant off of their versions??? It's disappointing, a big democratic country with a well tried home industrial base to be undecided about choosing a standard assault rifle for her fine army!!
@@flamezealousIndian military procurement and pragmatism doesn't always go hand in hand. I have a list of 'should haves' just in small arms. In mid 50's Bobby McDonald wanted to give tech of Ar10 and Ar15 to anybody who'll buy those rifles. IA even liked them but our MOD prevented it and went aping the British with the slr because apparently krishna menon didn't want NATO standard and ironically we did exactly that in desperation after the Chinese gave us a rude shock. A new nation like us should have taken help from some advanced weapon maker to set up a weapons factory. But we have a British left curse on our back which doesn't want to leave us alone and that's the ordinance factories. They only performed decently when they were managed by the British but after independence IOF fell to the typical rotten babudom culture and. There were multiple rifles that could have been perfect for us like valmet rk62/95 or sig 550. But the false ego of our babudom doesn't let us make pragmatic decisions.
The impressive stuff India has developed is mostly stuff that others won't export to us. Its amazing what we can achieve when it's not available for purchase.
Every Indian defence enthusiast is a blood pressure patient for years now. It would have been almost funny if it wasn't about national defence with 2 nuclear armed countries threatening our borders. It is incredible how many terrible decisions our military machinery makes consistently for decades. Our military procurement process is highly corrupt. We have been saved so far purely by raw courage and superior manpower of our soldiers, airmen and sailors (whose quality govt is hellbent on degrading with Agniveer). A time will come when the lack of strategic vision, band aid solutions, cost cutting and corruption will bite us back badly on the battlefield.
Dear Sir, Here is a reply I got from an Ex Military Top Brass " The largest Indian Defense Export is actually the US. There are as whole lot of components and sub assemblies and assemblies which get shipped from India. Coming from these are a few Offset Agreements which need to be honoured. Therefore a certain number of small arms is the easy route since it will function even after sanctions( the usual US SOP). Secondly the US Sig Saur 7.62mm rifle is a commendable weapon and no harm in getting them. Thirdly most of our Pvt Sector produces weapons are yet to be scaled for Bulk Manufacturing and are thus inducted in smaller numbers for specific sub organisations of our forces"
Very good podcast nailed it. Army selected sig because it was the only company which had bulk weapons lying around in their warehouse . Army got it in cheap as compared to other suppliers . Again economies of scale worked here. Had our army or govt supported our private industry initially handholded them then it could have been our industry . But again this is not last order many more will come in future . It’s high time army support Indian private companies nurture them . Then hold competition among them to supply high quality weapons
When India didn't make aircraft carrier, when India didn't make nuclear subs, when India didn't send a prob to mars, when India didn't send rover on the surface of the moon, *India chose Indian domestically produced all-infantry INSAS! and it has been time proven wrong decision* .
Someone told the same thing about Eugene Stoner's AR-10 rifle and Armalite factory once.. now the entire world is buying and building a licensed copy of AR 15. The problem with India is lack of knowledge and too much nose poking of government officials in every matter, even if it is out of their domain
Thats true. Even americaan sf uses german weapons just like many other countries. Just because its local doesnt mean we havr to outright buy them. We live in a globalised economy where everything feels local in terms of availability. The gov should continue to give small contracts for this startups to improve and as time pass hopefully we'll have something great.
@@spaceman69Dude majority USA weapons are domestically manufactured now apart from German there are various countries that have excellent small arms even eastern Europe have good small arms
Same may happen with ASMI SMG developed by Colnel Bansod... Kudos for Shiv Aroor for speaking openly and critically on such significant issue... And salute to CEO of SSS Defence... Major issue in defence sector in India is less expenditure on Research and Development both in Govt & Pvt sector. Colt developed about 20-25 variants of M-16 , intially it has issues and failed in Vietnam war against Ak47. Similarly AK family has so many variants which are developed over a long period of Time. Whereas INSAS has only 2-4 variants. Similarly MP5 being a wonderful weapon has undergone continuous development and has many variants...
Sig ammunition is very expensive so we are using LMG ammo that produce a greater recoil and lead to barrel bulge so army is not happy with it. AK203 is not that robust it uses polymer Piccadilly half length rails and polymer rails are not stiff enough so the sights mounted on it does not provide accuracy....
Please bring this issue up in Jaipur Dialogues. Maj Gen Rajiv Narayanan has a quite contrary view on this which must be corrected. It’s high time we must hold people accountable.
Shame on DRDO and Ordnance factories who in last 50 years can’t even deliver a proper rifle!! We lost more braves due to faulty equipment both in Kargil and Op Parakram than in any enemy action!! All projects Tejas, Kaveri engine, AEW&S system, INSAS rifles, navigation system etc are delayed by decades with no accountability, multiple cost overruns and end result is zero 🤦😭
India decided on the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge in 1963. We had the our own version of the FN FAL rifles. We tried replacing them with 5.56x45 NATO cartridge and made our Infamous INSAS rifle. COIN operations showed the cartridge to be underpowered and the rifle a tad unreliable. So now we are moving back to 7.62x51mm NATO and the Soviet 7.62x39mm intermediate. We are purchasing SIG 716 for the former and AK203 for the latter. The only problem I see is SIG716 not being manufactured in India. I think we should ensure that happens. SIG SAUER should be asked set up a rifle factory in India.
Blaming them won't do anything someone in armed forces especially army is doing it otherwise Navy prioritises indigenous weapons even Air force is selecting indigenous weapons more nowadays even Israel is importing from us
Army too has changed its position from 5.56mm round meant to disable a enemy from 7.62mm which will down the enemy.But SSS defence has a point.Even off we see the colt from Vietnam and now it has evolved.
When India didn't make aircraft carrier, when India didn't make nuclear subs, when India didn't send a prob to mars, when India didn't send rover on the surface of the moon, *India chose Indian domestically produced all-infantry INSAS! and it has been time proven wrong decision* .
The simplest are most difficult to build. I have used AK since 1997, its so maint free in all weather we are unable to take lead in mettalurgy & composite thats probably a reason why we are unable to make good basic wpn for Inf
Shiva’s heart is in the right place & I get the point about supply chain nightmare with so many guns used. But let’s also consider pov of our forces who are actually putting their lives on the line everyday, trusting their rifles. Trust isn’t built in a day. Instead of taking a binary approach why not a have a roadmap for gradually inducting indigenous small arms, starting with forces deployed in relatively less demanding battle conditions. By judiciously tracking performance, feedback & satisfaction in various battle conditions will create a database for new small arm inducted & their comparative performance, allowing the vendor to make changes or provide additional options if needed. In the meanwhile let the frontline forces use the weapon they trust to be more effective in the battlefield. As our own small arms mature & gain trust, we can take a decision of introducing it to our frontline security forces. The most important thing is to achieve our combat objectives, once we have data backing its ability to that, the transition to our own small arms will be much smoother.
If army people are definitely getting kick backs or else no one would make such stupid decisions. It’s a joke. Look at IAF too always underprepared and always behind.
This is pure bullshit!! The person/committee framing the Qualitative Requirements doesn't have a clue or watches to much super hero movies!!! They have selected a DMR as an assault rifle !! One thing I just can't understand is the Tavor Rifles use the same. 5.56 * 45mm round as the insas and its used bymost of the special forces of India without any problems in fighting terrorists while the Insas fails to do so and thats why noe you need both the Ak 203 and Sig 716!!! Its just fking ridiculous!!!
Exactly the equipment testing and selection committee should be changed they change everything at last second or have unrealistic expectations GOI should investigate this seriously
Every country has definite strong points. India exports its world renowned IT sector, while USA exports weaponry. No need to belittle the nation. Can’t be great at everything.
100% agree with Shiv! No justification for this stupid decision. Second thing is the MoD has tomtommed the AK203, 600,000 rifles will be delivered. What are we going to do with those weapons?
@@pnstudios925 For your information, the AK203 manufacturing took about 5 years to begin after its supposed opening. With that level of Delays in defence procurement, i can hardly see any future. The reason they took these sig sauers was because the AK is taking too much time, You need to see whats going on
@@pnstudios925 It was only meant for frontline units but since the AKs didnt arrive quick enough, they had to order more and equip non frontline troops with Sig sauers too. Its because of delays
Because of INSAS rifle quality domestic rifles mfgs lost good image infront of soldiers. SIG and AK203 is now famous among Indian soldiers. AK203 local made with indigenous content is good. Assault rifle is low tech now. All defense startups should work on Jet engines, Fighter jets, Missiles, Radars, Drones and other high tech products. ❤❤
Here's the absolute truth. Sig Sauer 716 is not used by the US army. It's a gun meant for Law enforcement and civilian market. AK-203 is export version (read : inferior) of a gun Russian military rejected from the outset. all that fully kitted out less recoil versions featured on their promo are only available for the Russians.
Very informative podcast. Problem is the defence provurement Bureaucracy and the vesyed interests. It isbpathetic that our our Army has no Standards in place in terms of Amunation and caliber. Wish our Govt wakes up on requirement of our own domestically developed in India. Jsi Hind
But Armenia has ordered them in bulk also all the indigenous firearms have passed all tests but army changes requirements at last minute if you don't know about defence news better to not talk about it
@@adity-m2g do you know the term “indigenous”? Indigenous means not imported from Russia , all components made indigenously in India and without any help from Russia (joint venture with Russia. ). From assault rifles like AK 203 to missiles like brahmos are all made with the help of Russia . Without Russia, Indians will be toting with jam proned INSAS rifle.
@@adity-m2g armenia buys arms from India because India manufactures weapons and arms of soviet era origins. The familiarity with the soviet era weapon systems is what drives the Armenia to buy in bulk from India and the price is cheap.
"SIG Sawyer?" 😂 Sure, a spring maker's completely unknown firearm is suddenly India's ultimate hope. We also get drivel from other channels about how the same spring manufacturer sells "sniper rifles" to other countries including the USA when nothing of the sort is happening while India itself buys it's own precision rifles from overseas. Let's see one Indian company manufacturing decent barrels - the main component of a precision firearm. Then, let's see independent tests of what is being offered by the spring manufacturer - accuracy tests, cookoff tests, reliability tests including mud, dust, cold weather testing and more. Let's see optics developed for these firearms - rail systems, materials used and more. Before peddling drivel, it would be good to see evidence of what is claimed to be an alternative to the SIG Sauer 7.62x51 rifles.
Why will India Inc put its money on R&D if the Government decides to buy everything from abroad? In any new product development, there will be iterations. The Government has to hold hands and provide support, otherwise we can defer the target of becoming a developed nation to a few centuries down the road - if we exist as a country then.
This cliche comparison of space program, shipbuilding, missile tech to making firearms is very misleading tbh. For eg. The UK builds SSNs, aircraft carriers, tanks etc but still made a shitty service rifle in the form of L85. France builds Rafael fighter jets, submarines, tanks and still has to import german rifles for its army. On the other hand Czech Republic doesn't have a space program nor does it build any big defense equipments but this tiny country produces one of the finest guns in the world. Same can be said about countries like Finland, Switzerland, Serbia and Austria. Analysing this peculiar pattern gives you some interesting insights. The countries which produce good firearms have two things in common, human resource and a dynamic gun culture which sustains a thriving industry. If you look into firearms history one notices that iconic firearms innovation is driven by singular talented gunsmiths and engineers like John browning, Eugene stoner, mikhail Kalashnikov, samuel colt, Daniel wesson, hugo shmeisser, vasily degtyaryov, dieudonne saive etc. India doesn't have any of the two. After the 1878 arms act india's once thriving domestic gun culture was killed by the British and sadly even the independent government and bureaucrats have left no stone unturned to kill domestic private firearms manufacturing and ownership and monopolised it in the inept ordnance factories. There is not one formal gun smithing course offered anywhere in india!!. How do you expect good firearms in this situation?.
Don’t forget about S.Korea and Singapore. Both these countries use their own indigenous rifles for their services. They are lagging behind in their space programs.
56:15 It’s NOT TERRIBLE. That 800 crore is the difference between life or death on the battlefield. I understand the need to create the standard infantry kit in house. But that concern should always be second to provide these brave soldier with the absolutely best gear, no matter where it is manufactured.
The results of these tests between foreign arms and Indian arms should be made public ! .... This is not done on the part of our defence forces ! .... Sometimes I feel our defence forces have less faith in our atmanirbharta than the private players ! .... I am very disappointed with this decision .... 🙏 ....
to be real though sig sauer is a battle proven company but sss defence have not passed the military trials yet and they dont have 7.62*51 rifle version
It so shocking to see that we still are importing basic infantry rifles even today especially now when we have Indian startups making them. Govt appears to be doing only lip service when it comes to defence modernization and indigenisation.
Blame army too they change requirements at last minute and set unrealistic expectations Arjun tapas WhAP suffered same fate remember how tapas was good for what it was but army's unrealistic expectations made it "failure" even though it was a very good for its category
@@adity-m2g don't know about tapas but arjun and whap saga(ongoing) are a result of military hardware diplomacy. It is more of a political decision than a military one.
This government has worked on making weapons (among other things) locally. They have even gotten a few foreign companies to produce some of their parts locally - Boeing is an example. So the government is not "throwing a bone" to anyone. The army simply cannot take that decision because that is outside their domain. The issue is primarily because there are corrupt babus and army personnel who benefit from imports. It is not an easu problem to fix but in the interest of national security it has to be fixed. Even if it means twisting/breaking a few arms.
Sir if any one comment about bjp policy and how they are running this country they immediately say anti national. Thanks to bjp supporter youtubers. And our vishwa guru ji 🙏. No hope
Why is this question about the gun not put to Rajnath Singh. Would love to hear his answer. Also want to hear what is Chief of army saying. Hope someone raises this question in the parliment to cancel this order.
Exactly Rajnath Singh instead of doing kadi ninda should ask army why they change requirements at last minute why they aren't unhappy with local products despite local products performing equal performance and also should investigate procurement process of army
it is the second instalment of what has already arrived in India .... contract was for 1.5 lakh rifles that was signed initially , but yes neglecting local armament industry is a shame . China makes its own weapons and will supply pakistan readily . India will be like Ukraine, but with no backers like the NATO to save them, in case of a war which is bound to happen sooner than later.
Ugram is still a rifle in development stage. AK 203 is getting delayed due to russia ukraine war. So army chose the rifles used by USA on a urgent needs basis. Does SSS defence have a comparable rifle to Sig..?
Hum advance defence produce kar rahe he to ye Basic Arms kyo import kar rahe he? Sarkar ka kam gavernance karna wo kyo defence production me ghusi hui he private players or companies ko licence dedo na USA ,Russia ,EU sare desho ki private companies hi defence production karti hai to hum kyo nhi kar rahe?
Delusion ,fake Nationalism or false notion of love towards nation can doom this country Reality, Rationalism, logic, Science can contribute towards betterment in various Departments of Country And also sometimes need to have faith in fellow indian work, creation and theory
It's not the case, actually.. the thing is lack of knowledge about firearms.. see, we put people in positions where they do not belong.. if it was upto them Indian Amry would still be using. 303 SMLEs.. private MNC is a fairly new concept in India still now these old politicians don't even know the first word of privatization they think how can a 20 year old know what is good for the country plus corruption from Bofors to even fertilizers every thing has it's own story.. so forget about government contracts it can only be done only if there is a total regime change no old politicians and only qualified educated young politicians then only Indian armed forces will get the top of the line equipments.. and not government Military is also to be blamed for this
And our Pradhan Mantri and Raksha Mantri says Bharat will export its weapons. Yes, the country designs and builds aircraft carriers, attack helicopters and missiles, but it seemingly can't make a proper assault rifle.
Try to procure indigenous private rifle for BSF and Assam rifles by testing them and then force the Army to accept it. BSF / Assam Rifles why because they are drpolyed along the border and CI zones
Great topic and discussion, but you need to change the host Dev to someone who is more articulate. He cannot express his points and has a really bad accent even by Indian standards. Habad tabad ghach pach.. what are you saying dude? Also, Shiv you need to interview Army leadership and ask these questions point blank. Why don't you ask them when you get the chance? Indian military leadership should be help accountable for these blunders.
Why can't the local SSS systems upload videos of their offerings, create some hype in public and then aim for govt contracts? They too are to blame. How many videos of Colt or Caracal etc exist vs SSS defence or Astra defence or the PLR systems?
Do not buy defense equipments from Lotus Machine tools pvt ltd Chandigarh India. Their products are very very low quality. They are with other names: Lotus Defense and aerospace, Security Equipments, Future Technologies. RK Gupta(Father), Amit Gupta(Son)
Please don’t say such unkind things. We have Modiji to singlehandedly protect the country. The Army is just a sideshow. We have Modiji. Ek akela sab par bhari. Mind it😜
I can see the pain of this india today anchor.. As a nationalist myself, i feel you bro
make toilet...tatti master
Kudos to Shiv for highlighting the real issues.
Ridiculous rant by Shiv. He starts off by saying that Indian Army is a circus of various calibers and weaponry....and then goes on to ask why can't each different Army unit be equipped with different rifles for trial. Dafaq?
@@omnicurious2949 he was saying that for just for trails give the home grown weapons to any two units, I think you are exaggerating
@@harshalsingh2750 To what effect will the trials be? I do advocate Indian made stuff, but the ship has sailed on the 'Standard issue rifle". Once chosen, ALL units will be equipped with the SAME rifle...that's why it's called 'Standard issue'. This debate should have happened 5 years ago, not now. Shiv is speaking like a ntcase...aka journalist.
make toilet..dont do tatti on road
When India didn't make aircraft carrier, when India didn't make nuclear subs, when India didn't send a prob to mars, when India didn't send rover on the surface of the moon,
*India chose Indian domestically produced all-infantry INSAS! and it has been time proven wrong decision* .
Babus don't see any incentive to build local military industrial complex... Colonial mindset driving our policies.
you have toilet complex for doing tatti? or you are doing on road as usual.
@@beryanbeyaan8047 You have isskool to learn English grammad arr you are learning that in your Chinese donated toilet also?
@@beryanbeyaan8047 Did he insult you? Why did you do that? shithead, he is right. Bureaucracy has been india's worst fault... If you dont believe me go and do some filework with them at local tehsils
@@ninadbhave5133 teri bhen aur biwi ko dekha tha, exposing their g@@nds doing tatti on the road..help them ,make a toilet in your house.
@@AlphaBeta007 It's not only babus, don't put it all on babus, if our generals say yes to a indigenous weapons, there is no way in hell a babu can block it.
Majority of blame for all of this phoren mal fiasco rests with army generals, who surprisingly keep getting gifted apartments in Florida, and foreign scholarships for their undeserving children out of goodness of foreign colleges hearts
only army in the world which came up with genius idea of changing barrel and use both 5.56 and 7.62 with one arm. And also expect frontline soldiers to fiddle around changing this assembly, then figure out how mcuh ammo of each type to carry. and that guy is still struggling to get rid of 'hathiyar mien rok'
Agree. In US we use 5.56 or 308 for DMR
The only country 🧐 I can see why your army is pussy footing on choosing a standard for ammo and assaul rifle... You're so inward looking, ease up, will you, learn about the history of small arms a bit more; the Italian ARX160 is a fine modular assault rifle was gonna be your rifle, if Mexico can look outward and come up with a standard rifle (they looked at the German G36 to produce the FX 05 Xiuhcoatl) why not industrial India 🇮🇳
Well the Serbian army has inducted the M19 multi caliber rifle with quick change barrel. But the difference is they have a world class company in the form of Zastava and we have ummm....disappointment... So the Indian army demanded too much too early which even the foreign firms couldn't fulfill at that time.
@@surajbiradar9827 I have always wondered why India can't collaborate with a country like Serbia or Finland (before she went into the fold of Nato) -- their AK's are so damn good, and they are little nations... Couldn't India give them a good deal to develop her own AK variant off of their versions??? It's disappointing, a big democratic country with a well tried home industrial base to be undecided about choosing a standard assault rifle for her fine army!!
@@flamezealousIndian military procurement and pragmatism doesn't always go hand in hand. I have a list of 'should haves' just in small arms.
In mid 50's Bobby McDonald wanted to give tech of Ar10 and Ar15 to anybody who'll buy those rifles. IA even liked them but our MOD prevented it and went aping the British with the slr because apparently krishna menon didn't want NATO standard and ironically we did exactly that in desperation after the Chinese gave us a rude shock. A new nation like us should have taken help from some advanced weapon maker to set up a weapons factory. But we have a British left curse on our back which doesn't want to leave us alone and that's the ordinance factories. They only performed decently when they were managed by the British but after independence IOF fell to the typical rotten babudom culture and. There were multiple rifles that could have been perfect for us like valmet rk62/95 or sig 550. But the false ego of our babudom doesn't let us make pragmatic decisions.
The impressive stuff India has developed is mostly stuff that others won't export to us. Its amazing what we can achieve when it's not available for purchase.
completely agree
Except for engines for aircraft, ships and land vehicles
For once I agree with Shiv on this issue ! .... We are discouraging local manufacturers big time ! .... Stupid ! Stupid ! Decision ! .... 🙏 ....
Excellent program on this very contentious issue
there is no contentious issue except generated by bakchods.
Maybe Sig Sauer gave the usual "something" to secure the contract? SSS Defence didn't give that " something" to secure the contract.
Ain't that the truth
I thought chandigarh lobby was not active.
@@arunchandramathi9572 chandigarh lobby is forever
U mean bribe
@@rajbiswas9077 Have u fired the SIG 716 Sir
Every Indian defence enthusiast is a blood pressure patient for years now. It would have been almost funny if it wasn't about national defence with 2 nuclear armed countries threatening our borders.
It is incredible how many terrible decisions our military machinery makes consistently for decades. Our military procurement process is highly corrupt. We have been saved so far purely by raw courage and superior manpower of our soldiers, airmen and sailors (whose quality govt is hellbent on degrading with Agniveer). A time will come when the lack of strategic vision, band aid solutions, cost cutting and corruption will bite us back badly on the battlefield.
Dear Sir, Here is a reply I got from an Ex Military Top Brass
" The largest Indian Defense Export is actually the US. There are as whole lot of components and sub assemblies and assemblies which get shipped from India. Coming from these are a few Offset Agreements which need to be honoured. Therefore a certain number of small arms is the easy route since it will function even after sanctions( the usual US SOP). Secondly the US Sig Saur 7.62mm rifle is a commendable weapon and no harm in getting them. Thirdly most of our Pvt Sector produces weapons are yet to be scaled for Bulk Manufacturing and are thus inducted in smaller numbers for specific sub organisations of our forces"
Very good podcast nailed it. Army selected sig because it was the only company which had bulk weapons lying around in their warehouse . Army got it in cheap as compared to other suppliers . Again economies of scale worked here. Had our army or govt supported our private industry initially handholded them then it could have been our industry . But again this is not last order many more will come in future . It’s high time army support Indian private companies nurture them . Then hold competition among them to supply high quality weapons
Shiv aroor at his best... Wonderfully put...
When India didn't make aircraft carrier, when India didn't make nuclear subs, when India didn't send a prob to mars, when India didn't send rover on the surface of the moon,
*India chose Indian domestically produced all-infantry INSAS! and it has been time proven wrong decision* .
Wow Thanks India Today For This Amazing Podcast As A Defence Enthusiast Its Like A Cream Pie For Me Thankyou 🇮🇳🙏🙏💗
let's be real, indian small arms companies cannot offer the kind of kickbacks that foreing manufacturers can.
Someone told the same thing about Eugene Stoner's AR-10 rifle and Armalite factory once.. now the entire world is buying and building a licensed copy of AR 15. The problem with India is lack of knowledge and too much nose poking of government officials in every matter, even if it is out of their domain
Thats true. Even americaan sf uses german weapons just like many other countries.
Just because its local doesnt mean we havr to outright buy them. We live in a globalised economy where everything feels local in terms of availability.
The gov should continue to give small contracts for this startups to improve and as time pass hopefully we'll have something great.
@@spaceman69lol unless you give orders 'something great' can never be achieved
Funny enough SSS company gets foreign orders but Indian army doesn't trust them the issue isn't in products but procurement process
@@spaceman69Dude majority USA weapons are domestically manufactured now apart from German there are various countries that have excellent small arms even eastern Europe have good small arms
Same may happen with ASMI SMG developed by Colnel Bansod...
Kudos for Shiv Aroor for speaking openly and critically on such significant issue...
And salute to CEO of SSS Defence...
Major issue in defence sector in India is less expenditure on Research and Development both in Govt & Pvt sector.
Colt developed about 20-25 variants of M-16 , intially it has issues and failed in Vietnam war against Ak47.
Similarly AK family has so many variants which are developed over a long period of Time. Whereas INSAS has only 2-4 variants.
Similarly MP5 being a wonderful weapon has undergone continuous development and has many variants...
Very aptly put. Defence Ministry and Army has to learn to support Indian small arms and not just jump the US and Russian bandwagon!
My Pt of View as a YO i asked in 1999 why 5.56mm INSAS, these are good for state Police but thank God we have got SIG & Ak-203 now.
True...comments section and presenters are just backroom bakchods whos only experience if PUB-G.
Sig ammunition is very expensive so we are using LMG ammo that produce a greater recoil and lead to barrel bulge so army is not happy with it. AK203 is not that robust it uses polymer Piccadilly half length rails and polymer rails are not stiff enough so the sights mounted on it does not provide accuracy....
SSS exists
Please bring this issue up in Jaipur Dialogues. Maj Gen Rajiv Narayanan has a quite contrary view on this which must be corrected. It’s high time we must hold people accountable.
Holding the mirror to the army and GOI.
Shame on DRDO and Ordnance factories who in last 50 years can’t even deliver a proper rifle!! We lost more braves due to faulty equipment both in Kargil and Op Parakram than in any enemy action!! All projects Tejas, Kaveri engine, AEW&S system, INSAS rifles, navigation system etc are delayed by decades with no accountability, multiple cost overruns and end result is zero 🤦😭
jaldi jaldi shame on DRDO like deta hu Cool Lagunga
@@KVSrirangam Usse jyada tez mein aajata hu bakwas karne 🤦🤣 Kyu ki mujhe ek bada sa 🌸 lagna hai
@@kamaljeetsingh1467Indian army can't win war by imported weapons...it hurting our economy gov should imposed ban on imported rifles
@@vdrk8236 so what was 1965, 1971 and Kargil 🤦🤣 are they all won by Indian equipment
Military se ek rifle dhang se procure nhi ho pa rhi par gyan pelne me peeche nhi hamare sher.
Indian army be like ghas kha lenge pr Indian rifle carry nhi karenge
@@s51588 they made INSAS and that was complete shit
Super bro, u have a guts to say reality in front of whole country specially in government .may be they shaming and start love for Indian weapons
Shiv on fire 🔥.
It is TRUE that army can give small orders and give feedback to manufacturer to develop own ammunition
Army is also running skill India - Agniveer
This job of make in India is .....job of Babus n politicians......not Army
India decided on the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge in 1963. We had the our own version of the FN FAL rifles. We tried replacing them with 5.56x45 NATO cartridge and made our Infamous INSAS rifle. COIN operations showed the cartridge to be underpowered and the rifle a tad unreliable. So now we are moving back to 7.62x51mm NATO and the Soviet 7.62x39mm intermediate. We are purchasing SIG 716 for the former and AK203 for the latter. The only problem I see is SIG716 not being manufactured in India. I think we should ensure that happens. SIG SAUER should be asked set up a rifle factory in India.
Our bureaucrats , business houses and politicians are brass hungry , unless they get it nothing is going to improve .
Blaming them won't do anything someone in armed forces especially army is doing it otherwise Navy prioritises indigenous weapons even Air force is selecting indigenous weapons more nowadays even Israel is importing from us
Army too has changed its position from 5.56mm round meant to disable a enemy from 7.62mm which will down the enemy.But SSS defence has a point.Even off we see the colt from Vietnam and now it has evolved.
When India didn't make aircraft carrier, when India didn't make nuclear subs, when India didn't send a prob to mars, when India didn't send rover on the surface of the moon,
*India chose Indian domestically produced all-infantry INSAS! and it has been time proven wrong decision* .
In one line- that’s what happens when there is no competition and no consequences
Sticking to the past is the most foolish thing.
INSAS is a good rifle we used it for 20 years now we need to move on. But with the Indian option with the new start ups.
INSAS is not a good firearm - not now and not at the time when it was produced. Is is slow and subject to lot of maintenance issues.
small fire arms , rifles , snipers should be indigenized al any cost.. its a shame we are importing them...
The simplest are most difficult to build. I have used AK since 1997, its so maint free in all weather
we are unable to take lead in mettalurgy & composite thats probably a reason why we are unable to make good basic wpn for Inf
Shiva’s heart is in the right place & I get the point about supply chain nightmare with so many guns used.
But let’s also consider pov of our forces who are actually putting their lives on the line everyday, trusting their rifles. Trust isn’t built in a day. Instead of taking a binary approach why not a have a roadmap for gradually inducting indigenous small arms, starting with forces deployed in relatively less demanding battle conditions. By judiciously tracking performance, feedback & satisfaction in various battle conditions will create a database for new small arm inducted & their comparative performance, allowing the vendor to make changes or provide additional options if needed. In the meanwhile let the frontline forces use the weapon they trust to be more effective in the battlefield.
As our own small arms mature & gain trust, we can take a decision of introducing it to our frontline security forces. The most important thing is to achieve our combat objectives, once we have data backing its ability to that, the transition to our own small arms will be much smoother.
I was literally felt bad when we had weapons made in India but we go abroad for procurement.
9mm carbine replacement i heard as a YO waiting to see even after 26 yrs
If army people are definitely getting kick backs or else no one would make such stupid decisions. It’s a joke. Look at IAF too always underprepared and always behind.
Programs for making Aero-engines and Rifles seem to be marred by obstacles time and again!
Great shiv aroor your way of patriotism and I agree with you ...why Modiji cannot break this import lobby...
Good pointers by Shiv
There are no substitute for import Shiv..... So called desi maal is just screw assembled foreign maal by pvt sector or entities at 3 times the price.
Ugram is 7.61*51 so the government has decided to go ahead with Ugram in the long run
This is pure bullshit!! The person/committee framing the Qualitative Requirements doesn't have a clue or watches to much super hero movies!!! They have selected a DMR as an assault rifle !! One thing I just can't understand is the Tavor Rifles use the same. 5.56 * 45mm round as the insas and its used bymost of the special forces of India without any problems in fighting terrorists while the Insas fails to do so and thats why noe you need both the Ak 203 and Sig 716!!! Its just fking ridiculous!!!
bdk tu kya Fauji hai...kabhi rifle chalaya hai? angrezi chod na band kar
Exactly the equipment testing and selection committee should be changed they change everything at last second or have unrealistic expectations GOI should investigate this seriously
Every country has definite strong points. India exports its world renowned IT sector, while USA exports weaponry. No need to belittle the nation. Can’t be great at everything.
SSS can get orders for 10-20k units from CRPF, Air Force, Navy, Army, Police SF units and Coast Guard..
so nicely expalined.
So basically I am not the only one raging about these stupid decisions. However, I am confident, that nothing will ever change
India shining
100% agree with Shiv! No justification for this stupid decision. Second thing is the MoD has tomtommed the AK203, 600,000 rifles will be delivered. What are we going to do with those weapons?
we have more than 1.4 million troops FYI. AK 203 and SIG SAUER will become the standard weapons of the Indian army.
@@pnstudios925 For your information, the AK203 manufacturing took about 5 years to begin after its supposed opening. With that level of Delays in defence procurement, i can hardly see any future. The reason they took these sig sauers was because the AK is taking too much time, You need to see whats going on
@@Game_Reaper first read what the comment was... Secondly even with Ak 203 our requirements were not being fulfilled. Sig was in service before ak 203
@@pnstudios925 It was only meant for frontline units but since the AKs didnt arrive quick enough, they had to order more and equip non frontline troops with Sig sauers too. Its because of delays
Because of INSAS rifle quality domestic rifles mfgs lost good image infront of soldiers. SIG and AK203 is now famous among Indian soldiers. AK203 local made with indigenous content is good. Assault rifle is low tech now. All defense startups should work on Jet engines, Fighter jets, Missiles, Radars, Drones and other high tech products. ❤❤
Talk about pistols and other sidearms also. We are the only army where soldiers carry just a single weapon while in combat.
Here's the absolute truth.
Sig Sauer 716 is not used by the US army. It's a gun meant for Law enforcement and civilian market.
AK-203 is export version (read : inferior) of a gun Russian military rejected from the outset. all that fully kitted out less recoil versions featured on their promo are only available for the Russians.
Welding, metal cutting, machining and CAD is not the same as precision manufacturing.
You're talking about a country which measures % of indigenous content of a weapons platform by weight. WEIGHT.
Very informative podcast. Problem is the defence provurement Bureaucracy and the vesyed interests.
It isbpathetic that our our Army has no Standards in place in terms of Amunation and caliber.
Wish our Govt wakes up on requirement of our own domestically developed in India.
Jsi Hind
Because India is still not capable enough to produce a functional reliable small arms till today..
But Armenia has ordered them in bulk also all the indigenous firearms have passed all tests but army changes requirements at last minute if you don't know about defence news better to not talk about it
@@adity-m2g do you know the term “indigenous”? Indigenous means not imported from Russia , all components made indigenously in India and without any help from Russia (joint venture with Russia. ). From assault rifles like AK 203 to missiles like brahmos are all made with the help of Russia . Without Russia, Indians will be toting with jam proned INSAS rifle.
@@adity-m2g armenia buys arms from India because India manufactures weapons and arms of soviet era origins. The familiarity with the soviet era weapon systems is what drives the Armenia to buy in bulk from India and the price is cheap.
"SIG Sawyer?" 😂
Sure, a spring maker's completely unknown firearm is suddenly India's ultimate hope. We also get drivel from other channels about how the same spring manufacturer sells "sniper rifles" to other countries including the USA when nothing of the sort is happening while India itself buys it's own precision rifles from overseas. Let's see one Indian company manufacturing decent barrels - the main component of a precision firearm. Then, let's see independent tests of what is being offered by the spring manufacturer - accuracy tests, cookoff tests, reliability tests including mud, dust, cold weather testing and more. Let's see optics developed for these firearms - rail systems, materials used and more. Before peddling drivel, it would be good to see evidence of what is claimed to be an alternative to the SIG Sauer 7.62x51 rifles.
The opposition should do halla gulla on this issue. But they are in cahoot with military contractors so they benefit too from it.
Why will India Inc put its money on R&D if the Government decides to buy everything from abroad? In any new product development, there will be iterations. The Government has to hold hands and provide support, otherwise we can defer the target of becoming a developed nation to a few centuries down the road - if we exist as a country then.
Pakistan recently inducted BW20 and BW21 built upon G3, a beautiful weapon. And Pakistan made it themselves.
I thought things have changed under this govt. sad to see nothing has changed.
at last RUclips guys listen my request after so many months.
This cliche comparison of space program, shipbuilding, missile tech to making firearms is very misleading tbh. For eg. The UK builds SSNs, aircraft carriers, tanks etc but still made a shitty service rifle in the form of L85. France builds Rafael fighter jets, submarines, tanks and still has to import german rifles for its army. On the other hand Czech Republic doesn't have a space program nor does it build any big defense equipments but this tiny country produces one of the finest guns in the world. Same can be said about countries like Finland, Switzerland, Serbia and Austria.
Analysing this peculiar pattern gives you some interesting insights.
The countries which produce good firearms have two things in common, human resource and a dynamic gun culture which sustains a thriving industry.
If you look into firearms history one notices that iconic firearms innovation is driven by singular talented gunsmiths and engineers like John browning, Eugene stoner, mikhail Kalashnikov, samuel colt,
Daniel wesson, hugo shmeisser, vasily degtyaryov, dieudonne saive etc. India doesn't have any of the two.
After the 1878 arms act india's once thriving domestic gun culture was killed by the British and sadly even the independent government and bureaucrats have left no stone unturned to kill domestic private firearms manufacturing and ownership and monopolised it in the inept ordnance factories. There is not one formal gun smithing course offered anywhere in india!!.
How do you expect good firearms in this situation?.
Don’t forget about S.Korea and Singapore. Both these countries use their own indigenous rifles for their services. They are lagging behind in their space programs.
@@Sumit-Sh Exactly... These technology comparisons are not connected. This hypothesis then doesn't let us see the real problems.
Today all Tanks and combat vehsBMPs of Russia n origin are manufactured in India since 1986.
56:15 It’s NOT TERRIBLE. That 800 crore is the difference between life or death on the battlefield. I understand the need to create the standard infantry kit in house. But that concern should always be second to provide these brave soldier with the absolutely best gear, no matter where it is manufactured.
In war time u will not have supply lines to replace parts that's the main problem here.
Looks like you are a sales representative or sales agent from some US arms manufacturing company 😅
Import lobby will not allow it. Next step Adani get away with the large rifle contract
That's why no one private company applied and join AMCA as SOV model
The results of these tests between foreign arms and Indian arms should be made public ! .... This is not done on the part of our defence forces ! .... Sometimes I feel our defence forces have less faith in our atmanirbharta than the private players ! .... I am very disappointed with this decision .... 🙏 ....
I want an episode on the fiasco that is Tejas 😅
to be real though sig sauer is a battle proven company but sss defence have not passed the military trials yet and they dont have 7.62*51 rifle version
It so shocking to see that we still are importing basic infantry rifles even today especially now when we have Indian startups making them. Govt appears to be doing only lip service when it comes to defence modernization and indigenisation.
Blame army too they change requirements at last minute and set unrealistic expectations Arjun tapas WhAP suffered same fate remember how tapas was good for what it was but army's unrealistic expectations made it "failure" even though it was a very good for its category
@@adity-m2g don't know about tapas but arjun and whap saga(ongoing) are a result of military hardware diplomacy. It is more of a political decision than a military one.
Very nicely explained by shiv
This government has worked on making weapons (among other things) locally. They have even gotten a few foreign companies to produce some of their parts locally - Boeing is an example. So the government is not "throwing a bone" to anyone. The army simply cannot take that decision because that is outside their domain. The issue is primarily because there are corrupt babus and army personnel who benefit from imports. It is not an easu problem to fix but in the interest of national security it has to be fixed. Even if it means twisting/breaking a few arms.
Import or not we need best for our soldiers
Sir if any one comment about bjp policy and how they are running this country they immediately say anti national. Thanks to bjp supporter youtubers. And our vishwa guru ji 🙏. No hope
Why doesn't Opposition create a ruckus on the issue- this is exactly their purpose!
Some officers in the defence are corrupt too. (Like any other dept)
And it's high time to call them out.
Why is this question about the gun not put to Rajnath Singh. Would love to hear his answer. Also want to hear what is Chief of army saying. Hope someone raises this question in the parliment to cancel this order.
Exactly Rajnath Singh instead of doing kadi ninda should ask army why they change requirements at last minute why they aren't unhappy with local products despite local products performing equal performance and also should investigate procurement process of army
it is the second instalment of what has already arrived in India .... contract was for 1.5 lakh rifles that was signed initially , but yes neglecting local armament industry is a shame . China makes its own weapons and will supply pakistan readily . India will be like Ukraine, but with no backers like the NATO to save them, in case of a war which is bound to happen sooner than later.
Babus are to India what army is to Pakistan.
Ugram is still a rifle in development stage. AK 203 is getting delayed due to russia ukraine war. So army chose the rifles used by USA on a urgent needs basis. Does SSS defence have a comparable rifle to Sig..?
@Shivaroor how to know who are the decision maker in arany? Can you please publish the same?x
Hum advance defence produce kar rahe he to ye Basic Arms kyo import kar rahe he? Sarkar ka kam gavernance karna wo kyo defence production me ghusi hui he private players or companies ko licence dedo na USA ,Russia ,EU sare desho ki private companies hi defence production karti hai to hum kyo nhi kar rahe?
Issue with insas only it was not upgraded in regular basis I don't know why the work has stopped
Delusion ,fake Nationalism or false notion of love towards nation can doom this country
Reality, Rationalism, logic, Science can contribute towards betterment in various Departments of Country
And also sometimes need to have faith in fellow indian work, creation and theory
It's not the case, actually.. the thing is lack of knowledge about firearms.. see, we put people in positions where they do not belong.. if it was upto them Indian Amry would still be using. 303 SMLEs.. private MNC is a fairly new concept in India still now these old politicians don't even know the first word of privatization they think how can a 20 year old know what is good for the country plus corruption from Bofors to even fertilizers every thing has it's own story.. so forget about government contracts it can only be done only if there is a total regime change no old politicians and only qualified educated young politicians then only Indian armed forces will get the top of the line equipments.. and not government Military is also to be blamed for this
And our Pradhan Mantri and Raksha Mantri says Bharat will export its weapons. Yes, the country designs and builds aircraft carriers, attack helicopters and missiles, but it seemingly can't make a proper assault rifle.
Does Indian government planning to shut this startup for Adani made futuristic planned weapons favoured by Modi?
I disagree with shiv here
look at turkey they are doing much better than us
Turkey is a bird...like fried chicken.
Who designs the specifications in the Tender document for procurement?
Did Indian army test the rifles made by SSS defence?
Try to procure indigenous private rifle for BSF and Assam rifles by testing them and then force the Army to accept it. BSF / Assam Rifles why because they are drpolyed along the border and CI zones
Great topic and discussion, but you need to change the host Dev to someone who is more articulate. He cannot express his points and has a really bad accent even by Indian standards. Habad tabad ghach pach.. what are you saying dude?
Also, Shiv you need to interview Army leadership and ask these questions point blank. Why don't you ask them when you get the chance? Indian military leadership should be help accountable for these blunders.
Why can't the local SSS systems upload videos of their offerings, create some hype in public and then aim for govt contracts? They too are to blame. How many videos of Colt or Caracal etc exist vs SSS defence or Astra defence or the PLR systems?
Do not buy defense equipments from Lotus Machine tools pvt ltd Chandigarh India. Their products are very very low quality. They are with other names: Lotus Defense and aerospace, Security Equipments, Future Technologies. RK Gupta(Father), Amit Gupta(Son)
Think how many jobs would have been created by giving this contract to our private sector.
Import lobby is still active.l
Where is vixit india
Somebody in Govt made money from Arms supplier
Is any Indian arms manufacturer has a rifle to match the range of 500m
That SIG-716 offers ?
Please don’t say such unkind things. We have Modiji to singlehandedly protect the country. The Army is just a sideshow. We have Modiji. Ek akela sab par bhari. Mind it😜
Where is our make of india
Funny Americans are moving their standard round for their military 6.35 X 48 mm from whatever NATO round they were using so look up to that
Btw Sig Sauer is German company...They are buying guns of German company from US :)
Its main branch got defunct in 2020, now the american branch dominates it
So what happen SSN failed to offer bribe to Defence force procurement people .