@haze Yeah I can see that because Twitch isn't designed to help the people Amazon only cares about the money and even that they're losing, so it's just favoritism and Twitch itself lies about when they properly enforce their TOS.
I think the outrage is more based on twitch bending the policies for larger partnered streamers but quickly dropping the ban hammer on smaller channels without properly investigating. They issue harsher punishments to smaller streamers for the the same infractions as a bigger streamer. The fact that you get a different person or team reviewing each case with different account managers will cause a huge variance in the judgements made each time. It is like referees in sports calling penalties but you can get a new referee each game who interprets the rules slightly differently and causes a ton of frustration for the players or in this case streamers on twitch.
great video devin, one issue i wish was covered more is twitch's decision to NOT ban certain streamers despite repeated offenses i understand that you stated AMs can argue on a streamers behalf but there tends to be certain clear offenses that continue to occur and are not dealt with
yeah - I intentionally did not weigh in on specific decisions because the video is instructive and not persuasive - I don't want to give you an opinion on that stuff, I want to do my best to equip you to make your own decisions once the system is understood TY for your comment
Truth of the matter is, Twitch does not care about Controversial streamers, nor even streamers that say racist things. The only reason those types of streamers are removed is because they fail the criteria that advertisers are looking for. In short Streamers are the product for advertisers. I no longer stream on Twitch, I said the N word 3 times over the course of 6 years. It does not make me a racist it just made me not Advertiser material. I don't feel bad about it at all. That said its perfectly fine for Female streamers to expose themselves in the most profane way yet they get to return a few days later... I'd rather say the N word and be banned then expose myself in front of kids and be pardoned for it...
@@MechaNobi149 the whole thing with the girls on twitch isn't a problem cause twitch is a entertainment platform it's not just a gaming platform and those just chatting streamers are entertainment if you feel it isn't that's your opinion. Nobody forcing kids to watch what you consider profanity on twitch if a kid does see anything it's parents fault not twitch and kids who have access to twitch have access to the internet which opens up to worse than anything on twitch. And compare accidentally exposing underwear/nip/or worse on twitch to purposely saying the n word is very different you think its worse but others would disagree especially ppl who don't see those parts of the body in a sexual way as you do and if a KID sees anything on twitch as sexual then that's just wrong and bad parenting and some would say disgusting js :)
@@devinnash when you title the video "Why EVERYONE is WRONG about Twitch Bans (The Truth Behind the Twitch Ban System)" then that is very clearly you giving an opinion and is no longer just an instructive video.
This actually resonates really well with the whole Dr disrespect situation. I feel him calling twitch out it's his way to try and get twitch to break their agreement.
museoftheark yeah for every ban they should post a write up about it on some public forum maybe? There's probably a bunch of downside tho to publicizing that info on every persons ban. It's kind of personal info and feels a bit bad to air every banned streamers dirty laundry, but idk what else they should do
@@exactlyonesasquatch2572 They should at least communicate the reasons for bans with the content creater. It'd be a cool idea to post the reason for the ban on the individual's channel while it's down.
@@exactlyonesasquatch2572 yeah. There is definitely a problem with how and where the information should be posted. On the personal info issue, I feel when you choose to stream, you are choosing to become a public figure. If you are getting banned for something you streamed publicly in the first place, I don't think it's fair to say it shouldn't be shown again.
Truth of the matter is, Twitch does not care about Controversial streamers, nor even streamers that say racist things. The only reason those types of streamers are removed is because they fail the criteria that advertisers are looking for. In short Streamers are the product for advertisers. I no longer stream on Twitch, I said the N word 3 times over the course of 6 years. It does not make me a racist it just made me not Advertiser material. I don't feel bad about it at all. That said its perfectly fine for Female streamers to expose themselves in the most profane way yet they get to return a few days later... I'd rather say the N word and be banned then expose myself in front of kids and be pardoned for it...
There is also the issue that it is not difficult for trolls to get small streamers banned. Without AM's or other support networks these streamers can despite the ban but will often only get a response weeks or months after the claim was opened with often no resolution.
Watched from start to finish, thank you for your in depth explanation of this subject. Comming from a streamers perspective, I find this knowledge as a wave of relief. With my understanding of the subject, I felt feared for my career thinking it could just vanish unjustly from ridiculous reasons as mentioned from LSF and other articles. This video really does provide that perseption of reality and safety that I need, thank you.
Thank you for talking about this at length! Your videos help A LOT with understanding streaming and the industry around it. Appreciate these snippets so much, man!
Ever since I found your channel I haven't really had as much interest in watching itsagundam and the quatering most of their think pieces are guises in a way to rally the people up instead of understand/explain things as you do.
Twitch news channels and conservative "edgy" news people are channels that survive by rallying up incels. The opposite side of the spectrum is just as bad with their sjws takes. But both of them use the exact same tactics. I honestly cant stand most of the hardcore twitch community. It's all hot garbage.
I appreciate the twitch break down. I've seen a lot of the twitch drama lately and I definitely see how it can be skewed. I don't understand why more people don't just hop over to RUclips instead. More potential viewers, wider diversity and a much more discoverable platform. some twitch streamers are finally picking up posting to other platforms. just go where the people are rather than canvas for a platform that you also need to attempt to fix...
TintStuff RUclips Gaming still has a lot of problems when it comes to streaming at the moment: The UI sucks, both for creators and consumers It’s currently not as interactive as twitch Just less viewers than twitch(in terms of live viewers not site wide viewers. It’s not necessarily more discoverable(there are less live viewers but a larger chance that you’ll gain viewers who watch Vods after) All in all right now streamers on twitch(especially partners) have a very high risk of moving platforms to RUclips Gaming in it’s current state. Due to exclusivity if they leave twitch and it doesn’t work out they lose their twitch partnership. In the long term RUclips will probably be the place to go but for now it’s simply not worth it for a lot high profile streamers to move to RUclips unless they get a big buyout deal like ninja/shroud did for mixer
I stopped using twitch years ago because of the moderation. This stuff goes back to 2013 with the Horror incident where a mod was banning streamers (several that I personally watched) simply for speaking his username in a critical discussion. I modded a chat around that time, and I saw the writing on the wall for the evolution of the platform all the way back then; I was immensely dissatisfied with decisions the streamer was asking me to make and completely disagreed with him on which messages to moderate, and he was only making those decisions because he was afraid of getting banned for not being 'proactive' enough. For the first year or so, twitch was truly dissident and interesting compared to the other major platforms, but by the end of 2013, into 2014, it had already become a site that was embracing the Reddit approach of banning controversial streamers/subs that it had previously defended on free speech grounds. Now, twitch is one of the worst: try streaming a politically conservative, libertarian show on twitch (or even just a show about laughing at goofy people on the internet) and see how long you last. dlive, Bitchute, and even RUclips and twitter will all ban you less quickly than twitch. No one in that sphere will even touch twitch (and even simply making an account to play games, they get banned for generic 'off-platform' actions without much description, sometimes before even streaming once). Take a look at Destiny's debates... there's a reason why most of them aren't known on twitch and Destiny is hosting their voice to twitch from off-platform. I don't really care what their reasons are or how they get there; the end result is that the people I want to watch get banned. There will never be a constructive solution because the people who run twitch and Amazon (they admit the highest level of execs are the ones who set policy) have a fundamentally different opinion on what should be allowed to exist than the average user or person, that they can never be convinced out of with reasonable arguments because unnecessarily strict enforcement of policies that hurt average users are good for long-term monopolistic practices. Amazon benefits greatly from the current status quo where they can get away with anything as long as they pretend to stand for progressivism, so reinforcing bans on the most critical and being lax on those who play the game, kiss the ring, and praise their enforcement and policies (when aside from sexual content, they're largely ridiculous), is really benefiting Amazon's CEO and board and not viewers, streamers, or even twitch, which was originally praised for being something like a "grassroots gaming stream site," when compared to Google, Facebook, twitter anyway. The fact that many people are involved in the decision-making process only makes the terrible decisions and policies worse. I will never report. The 'Trust and Safety Team' (Orwellian titles really fill you with trust) does not have to address every report of people saying bad words. The "policy makers" choose to make them. A safe society is trustless.
The Notepad and msPaint combo helps you communicate you ideas clearly. On the other hand visual learners get to both see, read and reference back what you just said. Furthermore screenshots can be taken for future reference.
They need violations to become statute-barred. They need to put what the person did somewhere to publicly access (for a period of time to not hurt branding). They need to watch more context before making a decision. They need to send warnings to people that are doing things that they do consider banable, but is not explicitly disclosed in TOS, before banning anyone. And last but not least they need to publicly disclose the process, that they use to ban people. They need to be accountable for any fail decision with a 2nd team that can be contacted to review ban decisions (partners only maybe). If the ban proofs unjustified or exaggerated, they need to publicly apologize to and reimburse those affected.
1. Doing something in concept and execution are two different things. 2. Perception is reality so honestly the outrage culture will always wins 3. If you're silent you don't control the story, therefore what is said about Twitch is true because they don't communicate
Truth of the matter is, Twitch does not care about Controversial streamers, nor even streamers that say racist things. The only reason those types of streamers are removed is because they fail the criteria that advertisers are looking for. In short Streamers are the product for advertisers. I no longer stream on Twitch, I said the N word 3 times over the course of 6 years. It does not make me a racist it just made me not Advertiser material. I don't feel bad about it at all. That said its perfectly fine for Female streamers to expose themselves in the most profane way yet they get to return a few days later... I'd rather say the N word and be banned then expose myself in front of kids and be pardoned for it...
it's kinda funny that you talk about this, cause there was a girl that said she got banned cause of playing with her dog and everybody believed her. In the end there was a video in which you can hear her beating up her dog and her saying she beat up her dog
you''re already wrong. lol. its like you just watched 1 clip and SAID THATS IT ITS ALL I NEED. their so many points of her actually not abusing her dog lol
@@SauceyCos of course that's all I need, why should I need more than this one clip with ton of evidence and her saying herself that she beat of the dog?
SauceyCos it’s pretty obvious she hit her dog. Doesn’t really matter how you feel about it. Or how nice she always is. she got banned and the ban wasn’t reversed so.. why you care so much?
Great talk, appreciate the effort. You could however shown that you did research on both sides of this problem. Seems like you did a lot of research by talking to Twitch people, but this paints the same problem you're describing which might make it less reliable.
"The streamer controls the narrative of the ban". Jee I wonder if we should trust Dr. Disrespect when he says he doesn't know if he got banned... Hint: He's lying about not knowing
It's funny you used that example because I had a run in with trust and safety for the exact example you provided with the exception that it was totally accidental BECAUSE I thought I was on my starting soon screen and I had infact just got out of the shower. I immediately stopped my stream and just waited it out to see if I'd get an email with a ban but I got a correspondance email from someone who said that they ruled it entirely as accidental and actually recieved sympathy and encouragement from the staff member to keep doing what I was doing. This process is something Twitch actually does really well from my experience.
I didn't think I'd sit here and watch this whole thing but I'm glad I did. Good content Devin. More people should see this. I think not enough people will watch this though because of the length and that bums me out :(
What kind of Human element is going on in the back though , such as different teams communicating in a Food Lounge or might know each other outside Office, maybe teammates see others do iffy things but stand by. Personally dont know how many or if you did talk to the Team-members who do the bans about those details. System is set up to try to stop that , and have teams separated and not have favoritism and blah blah , but it cant monitor or stop Human elements happening. If i make sense.
And Of course Alinity was sleeping with one of them. I guess that is into "that" too :D For example: Alinity toss her CAT over her head... AND NOTHING HAPPENS.
Made this at 4:23 Ban unreasonably: TF-blade - league of legends streamer Uncommunicative: Tarzan - league of legends streamer Outrage culture: cesspool of trolls - IRL people High profile bans: Hatemongers are mad at streamer so report A lot more bans: A good thing cuz people mad no one was getting ban Twitch is inconsistent: No/Yes, Its just luck of the card on which mod team you get Twitch is evil: No/Yes ever since Amazon bought twitch they moved in new employees who don't use the product so they don't care for the existing culture. (AKA What happens in buyouts)
Twitch messes up banning streamers because they don't even handle streamers banning users right. Twitch should stop allowing streamers to ban people "for any reason". There should be some guidelines to protect from getting unjustly banned. Second, too many streamers accept a mods decision to ban someone and don't question it, reasoning that the mod "knows" when to ban someone and must have been right in doing so. Third, I think that when a streamer bans someone they should always warn them first and tell them why they face being banned. Then the banned viewer should be sent a copy of conversation that got them banned. It makes no sense to only show it to them when they are banned and when they make an unban request. If ban is denied, give reasons why. If ban is permanent the broadcaster, not the mods should be the one to notify the banned person. This would be a clear signal that it will do no good to ask again. Otherwise, the person will just go around to different mods asking to be unbanned. Fourth, No moderator should be telling a banned user, "the broadcaster personally handled this so I don't know what to tell you". if they don't know what to say, the matter should be handled by the broadcaster and not make the user go to other mods to ask to get unbanned.
Consider an alternative universe where Google has the biggest streaming platform and a few streamers claim that they were banned for no reason/unjustifiable reasons, people would question the streamer instead of blaming Google. However, Twitch has literally the worst customer support and they are infamously known for that. With that premise, when streamers tell lies about their ban, people would easily believe the streamer. I've had a horrible experience with Twitch support and when I heard about the unjustifiable bans I don't even doubt that they were twitch's fault because I already know twitch is a horrible company, I wasn't surprised at all that they would ban people for no reason. So I believed streamer's lies because Twitch is just horrible, I think the issue is on Twitch. TBH I would be very glad if one day one of mixer, youtube or facebook replaces twitch.
I'm glad to see someone with some actual sense lay this out. I hope people take more sympathy for the mods (trust and safety team) they have it rough and they're just doing what they're paid for and have no control over it.
The twitch ban situation is trash. EX: dellor banned for "self harm" for smashing a prop keyboard on his head, not actually harming himself, and without warning. And because it was his 3rd ban accrued over 2+ years, a permanent ban - when most other streamers seem to be allowed an infinite number of strikes. Clear favoritism, targeting perhaps due to personal dislike, and an ability to maintain standards are present. Twitch staff organization is irrelevant.
I think the main reason Dellor got banned and others didn't was because he was already in hot water from twitch for the incident where he accidently streamed himself saying the N-word a bunch of times in quick succession. Twitch gave him many second chances, but he could not behave.
Hey Devin, I'm a software engineer in RL (for 20 years), and I guarantee you there are NO software engineer's reading chat logs. We get paid way too much for any company to assign us that task as opposed to writing actual code.
Usually M-F at 9:00am PST. But when he has stuff going on, it starts later. This is the case like almost every day haha. So usually around 11:00am is a more accurate guess
Twitch maybe should do a decision video like the sports league? With a short explanation of what ToS the streamer broke and what they believe is the right enforcement. I'm looking towards NHL player safety decisions videos. If they did that before the streamer can go on Reddit then I think we would have a good start from Twitch.
To add onto the list of "why would banned broadcasters lie about their ban", one of the biggest bullet points that wasn't touched : "Because streamers think they can get away with lying". Because twitch doesn't disclose ban info, a lot of streamers feel they can bend the truth anywhere from a few half truths to total fabrications.
Great video Devin i was wondering why there was so much negativity about Twitch but i guess if they have policy to not share the ban reasons they can't defend themslef publicly
WHen this video started i was like "oh shut up dude" but after watching the full thing it all makes a lot of sense! i highly Encourage everyone to watch this all the way through!
So if different people making ban decisions why is it when streamers do something bad they get a warning dm from someone who isnt a banner but a manager from a different department.
I guess nobody reported somebody who throwed their cat... But I agree you shouldn't use drama all the time or even a little bit of drama to get somewhere.
Late to the party but there needs to be a Twitch community management team to cover social media, a small degree of marketing, and update communications to viewers who I guess can be viewed as pseudo share holders by way of subscription.
There are a ton of inconsistencies with this information that does not correlate correctly with the bans that does happen. On top the mountains of evidence that directly contradicts this. This is how it SHOULD be. But its not actually how it works. For example twitch has stated that past bans are taken into account right? Then that means the same person will have influence of future bans. Which in turn means that persons name is on that ban as who did the ban. Now how it works in every single company in the world that does this is like so: A violation happens one person does the ban. Next violation happens, new person (most likely) looks at violation and sees that there is a past violation and who issues the previous ban. Now New person goes to said person who issued past ban and asks for details and information about previous ban.
Disclosing bans isn't the issue, disclosing NOT banning particular actions would be better. Like how can a streamer feed their cat vodka live MUCH to the cats discomfort and throw a cat over their head and not be banned? Yet another streamer who was CLEARLY just playing with their dog get banned for that?
Wow this needed to be out years ago. Great video. However, it's certainly irresponsible to claim that people have implicit bias "no matter what" and will never own up to it. Believe it or not, some people will outright admit they are wrong because they see things how they objectively are. Not every person has a biased frame of reference, even if that's rare.
They are still not transparent with reports or showing clips to where or when the ban happened to the streamer. Maybe they are working on it but not sure why it is taking so long to change.
you are totally off ! how about alinity using the N word, or the cat issue, why wasnt she banned and other person got banned for exactly the same issue ! its on stream, its recorded she did those things and no penalty were received... how is that the viewer fauld ? do you realy think no one reported that shit ?
Lol shouldn't sponsored videos be disclosed. How much did Twitch pay you for this one? JK love the content. Your analysis based on actual business principles, practices, and policies are really informative. Keep it up.
6:50 - then shouldn't they appear on the platform publicly since they allow the people not responsible to take flak for what they do? kind of a shitty thing if you ask me.
I've been banned 5 times in the last 3 days. THREE different accounts. Every time for sub botting but I deadass am not buying view subs to my stream so it has to be someone else. Like a stream of 30 where only 5 people are talking is pretty believable and I'm still being banned.
Great video... Altough nobody can answer why Alinity wasn't banned for letting her dog do that to her and another guy drawing that scene got banned for a week.
I lost my mind when you used 2 notepads instead of just 1.
You KNOW it’s going to be deep as hell when he opens up two notepads!
2 notepads and 2 MS Paints. It was a truly blessed stream
This video is how I feel when he pulls out the double notepad. ruclips.net/video/OQSNhk5ICTI/видео.html
@@winningRus 😂
thats when you know he about to go full force
Devin: ''Twitch's top issue''
Me drinking coffee: Is communication
Devin ''Is communication''
And I live under a rock
Patrick?
i was banned on twitch about 9 months ago for something someone said in my game. ive sent 7 emails in the past 8-9 months without a SINGLE reply
@haze Yeah I can see that because Twitch isn't designed to help the people Amazon only cares about the money and even that they're losing, so it's just favoritism and Twitch itself lies about when they properly enforce their TOS.
I think the outrage is more based on twitch bending the policies for larger partnered streamers but quickly dropping the ban hammer on smaller channels without properly investigating. They issue harsher punishments to smaller streamers for the the same infractions as a bigger streamer. The fact that you get a different person or team reviewing each case with different account managers will cause a huge variance in the judgements made each time. It is like referees in sports calling penalties but you can get a new referee each game who interprets the rules slightly differently and causes a ton of frustration for the players or in this case streamers on twitch.
great video devin,
one issue i wish was covered more is twitch's decision to NOT ban certain streamers despite repeated offenses
i understand that you stated AMs can argue on a streamers behalf but there tends to be certain clear offenses that continue to occur and are not dealt with
yeah - I intentionally did not weigh in on specific decisions because the video is instructive and not persuasive - I don't want to give you an opinion on that stuff, I want to do my best to equip you to make your own decisions once the system is understood
TY for your comment
Truth of the matter is, Twitch does not care about Controversial streamers, nor even streamers that say racist things. The only reason those types of streamers are removed is because they fail the criteria that advertisers are looking for. In short Streamers are the product for advertisers. I no longer stream on Twitch, I said the N word 3 times over the course of 6 years. It does not make me a racist it just made me not Advertiser material. I don't feel bad about it at all.
That said its perfectly fine for Female streamers to expose themselves in the most profane way yet they get to return a few days later...
I'd rather say the N word and be banned then expose myself in front of kids and be pardoned for it...
@@MechaNobi149 the whole thing with the girls on twitch isn't a problem cause twitch is a entertainment platform it's not just a gaming platform and those just chatting streamers are entertainment if you feel it isn't that's your opinion. Nobody forcing kids to watch what you consider profanity on twitch if a kid does see anything it's parents fault not twitch and kids who have access to twitch have access to the internet which opens up to worse than anything on twitch. And compare accidentally exposing underwear/nip/or worse on twitch to purposely saying the n word is very different you think its worse but others would disagree especially ppl who don't see those parts of the body in a sexual way as you do and if a KID sees anything on twitch as sexual then that's just wrong and bad parenting and some would say disgusting js :)
@@devinnash when you title the video "Why EVERYONE is WRONG about Twitch Bans (The Truth Behind the Twitch Ban System)" then that is very clearly you giving an opinion and is no longer just an instructive video.
This actually resonates really well with the whole Dr disrespect situation. I feel him calling twitch out it's his way to try and get twitch to break their agreement.
THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE pog
I think twitch should disclose bans. Rather then letting streamers say whatever they want.
museoftheark yeah for every ban they should post a write up about it on some public forum maybe? There's probably a bunch of downside tho to publicizing that info on every persons ban. It's kind of personal info and feels a bit bad to air every banned streamers dirty laundry, but idk what else they should do
@@exactlyonesasquatch2572 They should at least communicate the reasons for bans with the content creater. It'd be a cool idea to post the reason for the ban on the individual's channel while it's down.
@@exactlyonesasquatch2572 yeah. There is definitely a problem with how and where the information should be posted. On the personal info issue, I feel when you choose to stream, you are choosing to become a public figure. If you are getting banned for something you streamed publicly in the first place, I don't think it's fair to say it shouldn't be shown again.
museoftheark that's a good point!
Truth of the matter is, Twitch does not care about Controversial streamers, nor even streamers that say racist things. The only reason those types of streamers are removed is because they fail the criteria that advertisers are looking for. In short Streamers are the product for advertisers. I no longer stream on Twitch, I said the N word 3 times over the course of 6 years. It does not make me a racist it just made me not Advertiser material. I don't feel bad about it at all.
That said its perfectly fine for Female streamers to expose themselves in the most profane way yet they get to return a few days later...
I'd rather say the N word and be banned then expose myself in front of kids and be pardoned for it...
There is also the issue that it is not difficult for trolls to get small streamers banned. Without AM's or other support networks these streamers can despite the ban but will often only get a response weeks or months after the claim was opened with often no resolution.
Alinity must have 30 account managers fighting for her then!
Watched from start to finish, thank you for your in depth explanation of this subject.
Comming from a streamers perspective, I find this knowledge as a wave of relief. With my understanding of the subject, I felt feared for my career thinking it could just vanish unjustly from ridiculous reasons as mentioned from LSF and other articles. This video really does provide that perseption of reality and safety that I need, thank you.
Beast watching Devin Nash what the heck
Lol "I have to pull out 2 note pads and MS paint, that how serious this is gonna be" love your vids man.
Thank you for talking about this at length! Your videos help A LOT with understanding streaming and the industry around it. Appreciate these snippets so much, man!
thank you - I really appreciate it!
Ever since I found your channel I haven't really had as much interest in watching itsagundam and the quatering most of their think pieces are guises in a way to rally the people up instead of understand/explain things as you do.
Twitch news channels and conservative "edgy" news people are channels that survive by rallying up incels.
The opposite side of the spectrum is just as bad with their sjws takes.
But both of them use the exact same tactics.
I honestly cant stand most of the hardcore twitch community. It's all hot garbage.
@@wyatt5167 yeah same coin different sides then you have people like Devin that look past the surface and try to understand the real issues or causes.
thequartering is a forums junky that needs to leave the forums, he likes it when companies shits on him, he views it as more bullshit to feed from
I appreciate the twitch break down. I've seen a lot of the twitch drama lately and I definitely see how it can be skewed.
I don't understand why more people don't just hop over to RUclips instead. More potential viewers, wider diversity and a much more discoverable platform. some twitch streamers are finally picking up posting to other platforms. just go where the people are rather than canvas for a platform that you also need to attempt to fix...
TintStuff RUclips Gaming still has a lot of problems when it comes to streaming at the moment:
The UI sucks, both for creators and consumers
It’s currently not as interactive as twitch
Just less viewers than twitch(in terms of live viewers not site wide viewers.
It’s not necessarily more discoverable(there are less live viewers but a larger chance that you’ll gain viewers who watch Vods after)
All in all right now streamers on twitch(especially partners) have a very high risk of moving platforms to RUclips Gaming in it’s current state. Due to exclusivity if they leave twitch and it doesn’t work out they lose their twitch partnership.
In the long term RUclips will probably be the place to go but for now it’s simply not worth it for a lot high profile streamers to move to RUclips unless they get a big buyout deal like ninja/shroud did for mixer
I stopped using twitch years ago because of the moderation. This stuff goes back to 2013 with the Horror incident where a mod was banning streamers (several that I personally watched) simply for speaking his username in a critical discussion. I modded a chat around that time, and I saw the writing on the wall for the evolution of the platform all the way back then; I was immensely dissatisfied with decisions the streamer was asking me to make and completely disagreed with him on which messages to moderate, and he was only making those decisions because he was afraid of getting banned for not being 'proactive' enough. For the first year or so, twitch was truly dissident and interesting compared to the other major platforms, but by the end of 2013, into 2014, it had already become a site that was embracing the Reddit approach of banning controversial streamers/subs that it had previously defended on free speech grounds.
Now, twitch is one of the worst: try streaming a politically conservative, libertarian show on twitch (or even just a show about laughing at goofy people on the internet) and see how long you last. dlive, Bitchute, and even RUclips and twitter will all ban you less quickly than twitch. No one in that sphere will even touch twitch (and even simply making an account to play games, they get banned for generic 'off-platform' actions without much description, sometimes before even streaming once). Take a look at Destiny's debates... there's a reason why most of them aren't known on twitch and Destiny is hosting their voice to twitch from off-platform. I don't really care what their reasons are or how they get there; the end result is that the people I want to watch get banned.
There will never be a constructive solution because the people who run twitch and Amazon (they admit the highest level of execs are the ones who set policy) have a fundamentally different opinion on what should be allowed to exist than the average user or person, that they can never be convinced out of with reasonable arguments because unnecessarily strict enforcement of policies that hurt average users are good for long-term monopolistic practices. Amazon benefits greatly from the current status quo where they can get away with anything as long as they pretend to stand for progressivism, so reinforcing bans on the most critical and being lax on those who play the game, kiss the ring, and praise their enforcement and policies (when aside from sexual content, they're largely ridiculous), is really benefiting Amazon's CEO and board and not viewers, streamers, or even twitch, which was originally praised for being something like a "grassroots gaming stream site," when compared to Google, Facebook, twitter anyway. The fact that many people are involved in the decision-making process only makes the terrible decisions and policies worse. I will never report. The 'Trust and Safety Team' (Orwellian titles really fill you with trust) does not have to address every report of people saying bad words. The "policy makers" choose to make them. A safe society is trustless.
The Notepad and msPaint combo helps you communicate you ideas clearly. On the other hand visual learners get to both see, read and reference back what you just said.
Furthermore screenshots can be taken for future reference.
They need violations to become statute-barred.
They need to put what the person did somewhere to publicly access (for a period of time to not hurt branding).
They need to watch more context before making a decision.
They need to send warnings to people that are doing things that they do consider banable, but is not explicitly disclosed in TOS, before banning anyone.
And last but not least they need to publicly disclose the process, that they use to ban people. They need to be accountable for any fail decision with a 2nd team that can be contacted to review ban decisions (partners only maybe). If the ban proofs unjustified or exaggerated, they need to publicly apologize to and reimburse those affected.
1. Doing something in concept and execution are two different things.
2. Perception is reality so honestly the outrage culture will always wins
3. If you're silent you don't control the story, therefore what is said about Twitch is true because they don't communicate
@Brennan Altringer Exactly, people are being lied to from the beginning. It's all about money.
Truth of the matter is, Twitch does not care about Controversial streamers, nor even streamers that say racist things. The only reason those types of streamers are removed is because they fail the criteria that advertisers are looking for. In short Streamers are the product for advertisers. I no longer stream on Twitch, I said the N word 3 times over the course of 6 years. It does not make me a racist it just made me not Advertiser material. I don't feel bad about it at all.
That said its perfectly fine for Female streamers to expose themselves in the most profane way yet they get to return a few days later...
I'd rather say the N word and be banned then expose myself in front of kids and be pardoned for it...
it's kinda funny that you talk about this, cause there was a girl that said she got banned cause of playing with her dog and everybody believed her. In the end there was a video in which you can hear her beating up her dog and her saying she beat up her dog
RealTalk steamers reloaded just covered that in his last video
you''re already wrong. lol. its like you just watched 1 clip and SAID THATS IT ITS ALL I NEED. their so many points of her actually not abusing her dog lol
@@SauceyCos of course that's all I need, why should I need more than this one clip with ton of evidence and her saying herself that she beat of the dog?
@@RealTaIk because it's not even correct at all. You probably never once watched her stream or even understand the different sounds of her dogs lmao
SauceyCos it’s pretty obvious she hit her dog. Doesn’t really matter how you feel about it. Or how nice she always is. she got banned and the ban wasn’t reversed so.. why you care so much?
Great talk, appreciate the effort. You could however shown that you did research on both sides of this problem. Seems like you did a lot of research by talking to Twitch people, but this paints the same problem you're describing which might make it less reliable.
"The streamer controls the narrative of the ban". Jee I wonder if we should trust Dr. Disrespect when he says he doesn't know if he got banned...
Hint: He's lying about not knowing
It's funny you used that example because I had a run in with trust and safety for the exact example you provided with the exception that it was totally accidental BECAUSE I thought I was on my starting soon screen and I had infact just got out of the shower.
I immediately stopped my stream and just waited it out to see if I'd get an email with a ban but I got a correspondance email from someone who said that they ruled it entirely as accidental and actually recieved sympathy and encouragement from the staff member to keep doing what I was doing.
This process is something Twitch actually does really well from my experience.
I didn't think I'd sit here and watch this whole thing but I'm glad I did. Good content Devin. More people should see this. I think not enough people will watch this though because of the length and that bums me out :(
THANK YOU - you did, so that means a lot and is worth the video
What kind of Human element is going on in the back though , such as different teams communicating in a Food Lounge or might know each other outside Office, maybe teammates see others do iffy things but stand by.
Personally dont know how many or if you did talk to the Team-members who do the bans about those details.
System is set up to try to stop that , and have teams separated and not have favoritism and blah blah , but it cant monitor or stop Human elements happening. If i make sense.
So you are telling me that its not the twitch staff that watches Alinity... But the entire ban team? W OMEGALUL W i expected nothing less
And Of course Alinity was sleeping with one of them. I guess that is into "that" too :D
For example: Alinity toss her CAT over her head... AND NOTHING HAPPENS.
Made this at 4:23
Ban unreasonably: TF-blade - league of legends streamer
Uncommunicative: Tarzan - league of legends streamer
Outrage culture: cesspool of trolls - IRL people
High profile bans: Hatemongers are mad at streamer so report
A lot more bans: A good thing cuz people mad no one was getting ban
Twitch is inconsistent: No/Yes, Its just luck of the card on which mod team you get
Twitch is evil: No/Yes ever since Amazon bought twitch they moved in new employees who don't use the product so they don't care for the existing culture. (AKA What happens in buyouts)
Twitch messes up banning streamers because they don't even handle streamers banning users right. Twitch should stop allowing streamers to ban people "for any reason". There should be some guidelines to protect from getting unjustly banned.
Second, too many streamers accept a mods decision to ban someone and don't question it, reasoning that the mod "knows" when to ban someone and must have been right in doing so.
Third, I think that when a streamer bans someone they should always warn them first and tell them why they face being banned. Then the banned viewer should be sent a copy of conversation that got them banned. It makes no sense to only show it to them when they are banned and when they make an unban request. If ban is denied, give reasons why. If ban is permanent the broadcaster, not the mods should be the one to notify the banned person. This would be a clear signal that it will do no good to ask again. Otherwise, the person will just go around to different mods asking to be unbanned.
Fourth, No moderator should be telling a banned user, "the broadcaster personally handled this so I don't know what to tell you". if they don't know what to say, the matter should be handled by the broadcaster and not make the user go to other mods to ask to get unbanned.
Devin - also, why do you always cut off your RUclips videos early? (As opposed to showing the last few minutes of a stream.)
Consider an alternative universe where Google has the biggest streaming platform and a few streamers claim that they were banned for no reason/unjustifiable reasons, people would question the streamer instead of blaming Google. However, Twitch has literally the worst customer support and they are infamously known for that. With that premise, when streamers tell lies about their ban, people would easily believe the streamer. I've had a horrible experience with Twitch support and when I heard about the unjustifiable bans I don't even doubt that they were twitch's fault because I already know twitch is a horrible company, I wasn't surprised at all that they would ban people for no reason. So I believed streamer's lies because Twitch is just horrible, I think the issue is on Twitch. TBH I would be very glad if one day one of mixer, youtube or facebook replaces twitch.
Not gonna lie didn’t even realize this was a 54 minute video
One of my Favourite Twitch RUclipsrs such great info and such great work! Keep it up!
Excellent content. Lots of good info to digest in here.
thank you
I'm glad to see someone with some actual sense lay this out. I hope people take more sympathy for the mods (trust and safety team) they have it rough and they're just doing what they're paid for and have no control over it.
Twitch needs an Ombudsman
The twitch ban situation is trash. EX: dellor banned for "self harm" for smashing a prop keyboard on his head, not actually harming himself, and without warning. And because it was his 3rd ban accrued over 2+ years, a permanent ban - when most other streamers seem to be allowed an infinite number of strikes. Clear favoritism, targeting perhaps due to personal dislike, and an ability to maintain standards are present. Twitch staff organization is irrelevant.
I think the main reason Dellor got banned and others didn't was because he was already in hot water from twitch for the incident where he accidently streamed himself saying the N-word a bunch of times in quick succession. Twitch gave him many second chances, but he could not behave.
This is interesting. And it totally makes sense now.
that ending was powerful
i want to start broadcasting, i'd appreciate any pointers from the man himself
Hey Devin, I'm a software engineer in RL (for 20 years), and I guarantee you there are NO software engineer's reading chat logs. We get paid way too much for any company to assign us that task as opposed to writing actual code.
Love your content bro. What time are the live streams?
Usually M-F at 9:00am PST. But when he has stuff going on, it starts later. This is the case like almost every day haha. So usually around 11:00am is a more accurate guess
Let me listen to these on audio platforms too please 👀
Twitch maybe should do a decision video like the sports league? With a short explanation of what ToS the streamer broke and what they believe is the right enforcement. I'm looking towards NHL player safety decisions videos.
If they did that before the streamer can go on Reddit then I think we would have a good start from Twitch.
To add onto the list of "why would banned broadcasters lie about their ban", one of the biggest bullet points that wasn't touched : "Because streamers think they can get away with lying".
Because twitch doesn't disclose ban info, a lot of streamers feel they can bend the truth anywhere from a few half truths to total fabrications.
Great video Devin i was wondering why there was so much negativity about Twitch but i guess if they have policy to not share the ban reasons they can't defend themslef publicly
not only informative, but also optimistic and inspirational
WHen this video started i was like "oh shut up dude" but after watching the full thing it all makes a lot of sense! i highly Encourage everyone to watch this all the way through!
thank you man! I really appreciate that you watched it through and gave it a chance
Shut up and tldw I ain't watching an hour for this one topic
So if different people making ban decisions why is it when streamers do something bad they get a warning dm from someone who isnt a banner but a manager from a different department.
tried to post this on LSF was removed immediately
Benjamin Ledingham wow really? That's crazy. LSF trying to avoid bad press.
It’s a 54min vid bruv
This is a breath of fresh air. Thanks for sharing the other side of the story that we never get to hear.
Could you please go more in-depth on what your sources are etc? just saying "I've researched this for HOURS" doesn't particularly mean anything
Your channel got suggested cuz i watch destiny and youtube did a hella good job with those reccomandations
same
I guess nobody reported somebody who throwed their cat...
But I agree you shouldn't use drama all the time or even a little bit of drama to get somewhere.
Late to the party but there needs to be a Twitch community management team to cover social media, a small degree of marketing, and update communications to viewers who I guess can be viewed as pseudo share holders by way of subscription.
There are a ton of inconsistencies with this information that does not correlate correctly with the bans that does happen. On top the mountains of evidence that directly contradicts this. This is how it SHOULD be. But its not actually how it works. For example twitch has stated that past bans are taken into account right? Then that means the same person will have influence of future bans. Which in turn means that persons name is on that ban as who did the ban. Now how it works in every single company in the world that does this is like so: A violation happens one person does the ban. Next violation happens, new person (most likely) looks at violation and sees that there is a past violation and who issues the previous ban. Now New person goes to said person who issued past ban and asks for details and information about previous ban.
Perception for only one year, no this has been going on for much longer. And doesn’t show any signs of improving
You know Devin is serious when he opens up 2 Notepad and 2 Paint at the same time
Disclosing bans isn't the issue, disclosing NOT banning particular actions would be better. Like how can a streamer feed their cat vodka live MUCH to the cats discomfort and throw a cat over their head and not be banned? Yet another streamer who was CLEARLY just playing with their dog get banned for that?
I love these videos, just wanted to say that.
This really makes me question what a streamer says about their ban now. great talk overall really great insight into the ban processes and system.
really question devin as well, he is an insider with twitch & has bias.
@@bambambigelow187 He might be an insider with twitch but he is also an insider with creators so you can say he is biased on that front as well.
Wow this needed to be out years ago. Great video.
However, it's certainly irresponsible to claim that people have implicit bias "no matter what" and will never own up to it.
Believe it or not, some people will outright admit they are wrong because they see things how they objectively are.
Not every person has a biased frame of reference, even if that's rare.
Er, he did mention the rare cases where some people own up to their mistakes, he just didn't write it down on the notepad .-.
They are still not transparent with reports or showing clips to where or when the ban happened to the streamer. Maybe they are working on it but not sure why it is taking so long to change.
TehBrownie he literally said that in the video lmao you’re saying it like he didn’t
@@Driaan ? Am not talking about Devin. Am talking about twitchs problem is it is taking them too long to become transparent with their streamers.
Brownie he literally talked about that in the video lmao you’re trolling
you are totally off ! how about alinity using the N word, or the cat issue, why wasnt she banned and other person got banned for exactly the same issue ! its on stream, its recorded she did those things and no penalty were received... how is that the viewer fauld ? do you realy think no one reported that shit ?
Look, that's all great and stuff... But the real question for me is why certain people DON'T get banned, for example Alinity. Any thoughts on that?
Destiny got destroyed in this debate
Yarcofin where can I find this vod? 👀
Lol shouldn't sponsored videos be disclosed. How much did Twitch pay you for this one?
JK love the content. Your analysis based on actual business principles, practices, and policies are really informative. Keep it up.
Where is the category for yeeting your cat LULW
great talk.
2 Paints, 2 Notepads.
Holy shit.
Important discussion indeed. I'll build my empire in such a way. It's the only way.
I'm glad that when two notepads aren't enough, paint is there to back you up.
bruh wtf I tought this was about the current situation
having a shit policy, that allows people to report for offences months or years ago, is not their fault? Is that a joke?
"for the most part" seems prevalent
alinity no banned ,corruption on highest levels!!!
You know he's serious when he starts off with two notepads instead of the usual one.
6:50 - then shouldn't they appear on the platform publicly since they allow the people not responsible to take flak for what they do? kind of a shitty thing if you ask me.
You really need to have a talk with GaryVee sometime, that shit would break twitch I swear.
I think you shouldn’t be able to report content older than 6 months
what about z1ronic?????
Devin I would like to direct you to a great program called PowerPoint or, better yet, LIbre Office.
All react andys need to watch this
Pretty dumb not to publicly disclose the reason for the ban so all will know - that just creates the environment being complained about.
TWO NOTEPADS?
Was really interested by the video title but 10mins in i was bored shitless.
I've been banned 5 times in the last 3 days. THREE different accounts. Every time for sub botting but I deadass am not buying view subs to my stream so it has to be someone else. Like a stream of 30 where only 5 people are talking is pretty believable and I'm still being banned.
Devin the Paladin ^_^
Use Notepad ++, allows you to use tabs.
I dont care about other people getting banned "unreasonably". I just want alinity banned lol
How much he get paid to shill?
Sounds like a verlisify title
Hair looks better
Upgrade to Notepad++ - you know you want to
I'm 100X smarter because of these vids honestly
More than a year later ssdd.
Do you think they make money off of the whiny streamer going on youtube and saying that they are innocent (almost an indirect way to bring in viewers)
NOTEPAD NASH PogU
#FreeTheEgg
#Justice4Egg
#EggDidNothingWrong
Great video...
Altough nobody can answer why Alinity wasn't banned for letting her dog do that to her and another guy drawing that scene got banned for a week.
The idea of doing this kinda thing came from Rekful, although he didnt type everything he said
7:16