Why Warlocks Should Use INT
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 20 авг 2024
- Get Access to Over 650 Pages of Content for Dungeons and Dragons: / monkeydm
#shorts
Dungeons and Dragons, XP to level 3 with Davvychappy, potentially a bit a Critical Role with dungeoneering, tabletop community next to tabletop RPG, dungeons and dragons, Fjord, Beau, Jester, Yasha, Caleb, Nott, 5th edition dragons, 3.5e, dungeon dudes, DM GM, dungeon master, game master tips sprinkle a bit of Caduceus, Mollymauk in the Mighty Nein. Matt Mercer.
And it balances out the class list a bit more as well. Now you have three intelligence based classes and three charisma based classes
I thought it was 2 wisdom 2 charisma and 2 intelligence
@@TJTrickster
Current list is…
INT: Wizard, Artificer
WIS: Druid, Cleric, Ranger
CHA: Sorcerer, Warlock, Bard, Paladin
He's including the half casters
@@cabbageoverlord4540what is the difference between a wizard and a smart warlock.
@@HopeRock425 wizards learn spells and study warlocks do this as well but they make pacts to gain more magic
Maybe Warlocks should be given the choice of Int or Cha casting, they're already the most unique and customizable class, why not give em another choice?
Now every multiclass is going to take a dip into hexblade
Not that I'm against the idea
I think so too
@@neon-lake I'm not that sure about that. I expect to apear a couple builds with hexblade and one of the intelligence based casters but i doubt its gonna be as abundant as it is with the charisma based casters.
I throw the choice of Wis into it
I’ve recently found a 12 warlock subclass homebrew and one of the new patron was the archmage which allow the warlock to use int as a spell caster instead of charisma.
Imagine a Bladesinger with a dip in INT Hexblade.
It'd be amazing
Yeah, I call it a bad wizard.
Add in elven accuracy and a casting of foresight to never miss again
@@hieronymusnervig8712 how? It would let the wizzard use its int modifier for mele AND spell casting
@@ryleebarker9339 At what level does that make you a better wizard than if you just had an extra level in Wizard? You're delaying Fireball, Extra Attack, Polymorph, Animate Objects, etc.
I'd argue the only level where it actually helps is Lv8. And at that point you should put the ASI into DEX, which should put you to +3, maybe even +4.
In my group warlocks choose whether to be CHA or INT based.
That's how I do it now as well
i feel like this makes the most sense, either the warlock charmed a extraplanar being of some kind for their abilities or they pursued the knowledge relentlessly until it was granted to them.
from what im hearing, there is basically no reason to not go CHA
@@Green_Bean_Machine Depends. On a straight warlock, the only difference us flavor and the social role you play. INT and CHA are fairly equal in that regard.
The only mechanical difference is multiclassing. And there are plenty of reasons to use either.
Finally lore wise, I still think CHA makes the most sense. They relentlessly persue knowledge, sure, but if they were successful with it they'd be a wizard not a warlock. I think it's the relentless part that's important, where they persue knowledge regardless of their skill and never stop (sounds like a strong force of personality to me). The whole point of warlock is you had to cheat to get the knowledge you were after XD
To me the castet classes can be summed up as: wizard studies their butt off for cantrips, sorcerer never studies but gets straight A's anyway, bard got a musical scholarship and warlock stayed behind after class for some extra credit.
Warlock being CHA based makes 100% sense to me
Int and Cha sounds more interesting, Int and Wis would be just a "Wizard 2".
Depending on the patron, I can see a case for both intelligence and charisma. Heck, even wisdom can work in some cases
The standard stats block is so horribly obsolete now.
Wisdom is such a weird stat.
"Yeah you can see real well and also you are a philosopher"
Like charisma it's kind of a dumpster AC for various things that kinda fit together if you don't think about it. Which is ironic actually
Strength, Endurance, and Dexterity are as close together as your eyesight, thoughtfulness, and background knowledge.
I'm proficient with wisdom so my ability to talk to squirrels and sew up my friend's wounds is really good.
Yo man I have a great sense of smell and also the social insight to know you are lying.
Thank God I read all those books as a kid cuz now I'm Bugbear Grills.
Intelligence: Studies arcane lore of their patron
Charisma: Uses their force of will to bargain with their patron.
Wisdom: Worships their patron.
Honestly I hated that 5e literally had just Wizards as the ONLY Int based class for the longest time. And ya, I'm glad we have Artificer now for another one, but honestly I build a whole class around the concept of using one's natural magic with arcane knowledge because I wanted more Intelligence options. Imagine how a Monk knows their body, but does so on a magical scale. A Sorcerer has an overabundance of magic, but an Elementalist uses their natural body's energy to create magical effect. So already it's better than 4-ways Monk
I am homebrewing a martial intelligence class "Investigator" based largely around the Pathfinder 2e class and some of your typical Sherlock Holmes clichés and such! I agree with you, the game needs more focus around Intelligence.
Isn't Blood Hunter technically INT focused? Its a MAD class tho at the end of the day
You gotta try laserllama's Savant class. Its genuinely the best homebrew class I've seen that doesn't go overboard with dice mechanics or complexity, its a very easy to understand but incredibly deep nonmagic intelligence based class. Highly recommended.
@@PH03NIX96 Blood Hunter is my fav class but they definitely feel like the half-caster version of a class that doesn't exist, they're mostly martial. They are kinda MAD but you can get away with taking lower intelligence if you're not going profane soul since blood curses are just okay and most of the good ones work without saving throws.
@@dumbwaki5877 I think the class in general just sucks.
Matt has this fetish with releasing super underwhelming classes/subclasses that come with dumb downsides.
But strictly it does scale with INT for its main features and ability proficiency.
Depending on what pact they are I'll allow intlock, wislock, or charlock. Granted I also allow pacts from the compendium of forgotten secrets
I respect that ngl. Have a good day, you deserve it.
That is so fucking cool dude. Didn't think about that, but it actually makes a lot of sense!
The what now?
What is this compendium you speak of, and what does it offer?
@@techfoolcasey4348 it's a homebrew book with new warlock patrons, spells, invocations and more options for chain familiars that fit better the new patrons, instead of just the four options of the PHB.
Warlocks seem like the embodiment of high intelligence low wisdom
“Hey this god is gonna give me unlimited power”
“What did he ask you for”
“Oh just to cast a big enough spell to destroy the whole world
"Dude, are things ok at home? Wanna talk about it?"
Look at it this way, you've stated that charisma is the sort of "force of will" of a character. In lore, the patron literally puts a seed of arcane magic into the souls of the warlock. As such, it's as though the soul of the warlock is empowered through arcane magic, which matches more with force of will than intelligence and knowledge. Also, warlocks don't exactly learn how to cast, they *make a deal* to cast. But that's just how I see it.
No, I see it more as a "Your charisma is high, this means your patron likes you, therefore empowers your spells even more"
Glad somebody else typed it and saved me the time
I like warlocks to be intelligent based because while charisma is cool, it doesn't make sense for a human to bargain his charms and whims with a power so strong to rival a cleric. They kinda have to take their masters power by out smarting them or going around bargains.
@@angelvital6466 But it's still an "unlearned" form of magic, just like for sorcerers. It's just that the source of that power is a powerful entity rather than being inherited from a lineage. The warlock probably does not understand how his powers work; he simply has the force of will to channel and manifest them.
@@angelvital6466 Eh, not really. The beings warlocks get their power from don't have to be crazy powerful, because unlike gods and their clerics they only have to empower a handful of warlocks. Plus there are plenty of potential pacts where your relationship to your patron isn't nearly so antagonistic, like Celestial pacts. And that's not even getting into the question of exactly where the power comes from-that is, is it a spark your patron gives that you then grow, or is your deepening bond with your patron the source of your growing power?
Point is, you can make just about anything make sense in D&D. You just have to be open to different interpretations.
Puffin Forest tells a story about his run through Curse of Strahd and their Warlock is INT based.
Is that one of his posted stories?
@@OniNoSweeney Yeah, It's The Strahd campaign
Boshak
The best character in that series too.
I kinda like this. It reminds me of an optional rule in valda's spire of secrets (a massive 3rd party expansion book). It basically allows you to change the main stat of your spellcasting classes to a different one and it will be called a different name.
Man's using clips from Mobile legends bang bang trailers.
Love it
Thank God I'm not the only one
@@Souberb69 who do you main?
Yeah haha
@@WES704 gusion
Yeah but here's the thing : the point of warlocks, to me, is that most of them took a shortcut through the pact. If they had the intelligence to become a wizard, they would have done so instead of selling their soul.
EDIT : however INT warlocks would make sense if your world has 1)restricted access to arcanic magic (like you need to be rich to attend magic college) or 2)a need for a spark of sorcerer-like innate magic ability that's cultivated through arcanes.
To add onto this, the lore is that pact spells are cast more like how Sorcerers cast, with magical force of will rather than pure know-how, which is why you need powerful beings who can get away with such a thing as a patron.
Additionally, the Warlock gets power from his patron "installing" some of themselves into the warlock (which is actually listed as one of the ways to become a Draconic Sorcerer mind), and a lot of the Mystic Arcanum's is about manipulating that new "innate" spellcasting power. They make sense as Charisma when you focus on how much of Warlock is about the patron turning you into a psuedo-sorcerer by warping your very being.
They're just the nerdiest, INT-iest of the Charisma classes.
I mean contracts are smart people things
You could become a warlock for reasons aside from just gaining new spells and powers. Maybe the patron promised the return of a loved one to life, maybe they found you in a moment of weakness on the verge of death and offered you a 2nd chance at life or offered you a chance at revenge against someone who had deeply wronged your character. You could also be potentially manipulated into the pact, maybe they pulled the strings to bring the situation that pushes a character into accepting a warlock pact, not all warlocks become a warlock for power and maybe some don't even want to become one.
Selling a soul for an Eldrich blast is a pretty big brain move
@@junconglin a contract can be verbal and just using the force of their argument... which relies on CHA
When it comes to charisma, I always viewed it as the Warlock expressing their force of will.
THANK YOU FOR MENTIONING THIS AND IM SO GLAD IM NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT DOES THIS IN CAMPAINS
I’ve allowed my players to choose cha or int when playing warlocks and it has not done anything to my games balance. If anything it’s made my groups more well rounded because many of them like to play Cha classes
Yes
& One of the reasons I love the PF2e Witch 👍
The fact that they're Int-based is cool, but having played one for while they're not really very well designed. They're kinda just Wizads with some extra steps and their unique feats don't play much into their function in the group (but it really does play into the roleplay of the class as a weird reclusive fanatic who gained powers by some weird entity).
The Witch also kinda de-values the Sorcerer, since they can also choose any spell list.
@@heyfell4301 While I do agree that Witch is near the bottom of the list when it comes to PF2 classes, I don't think they compete much with Sorcerers. Spontaneous vs Prepared makes a huge difference. I think the main mechanical conflict is the similarity between Familiar Thesis Wizards and Arcane Witches.
On the plus side, I guess having different classes overlap slightly in the design space makes it so that you don't have any gaps, but in the long run it's true that it can contribute to system bloat. I feel like in 5 years, looking back, the only APG class that really helps the system more than it bloats it will have been the Oracle. I was very happy when the APG came out, but the SoM and G&G classes are so much better, as well as the upcoming DA classes.
@@robinbernardinis oh, I didn't mean to say Witches are stronger than Sorcerers, just that the fact that two other classes have the same feature that is the core of the Sorcerer (picking any tradition) makes them considerably less special and slightly less appealing.
The power difference is really just a choice between the style of casting, and I myself feel more inclined to choose Spontaneous since being a Prepared caster is really a pain in the butt depending on how much info the DM give you beforehand and how well you know the system itself, causing some... difficult situations... like when I came with a shitton of fire spells only to quickly realise we would be fighting Hellhounds, or when I prepared my Magic Missile at Second Level to only then discover that the damage only increases at third... yep, I'm a very... VERY sad Witch...
I can personally see how some people would prefer to be prepared casters, and I myself get surprised every single session whenever I open my spellbook in the daily preparations and remember how many stuff I can cast, at least in this game the competition is a bit tigher, while in D&d playing a Sorcerer or Bard will probably just make you wish you were playing a Cleric or a Wizard instead.
But yeah, while I struggle to enjoy any spellcasters in D&d other than the Bard and Warlock (and even those I enjoy just because of what they do BEYOND just casting, I never liked casters in 5e), playing a caster in Pathfinder is the most fun I've had with the system until now. It's a weird, clunky and mentally demanding fun, but even though I probably have to work twice as hard in my sheet than any other player in the table, it's still fun.
I haven't played PF2e, but I did play 1e. How different are witches?
@@EnrocaLaRoca They are actually pretty similar. The nomenclature changed a bit as a result of the base system rules changing, but in practice they work relatively similarly, especially when it comes to progression. While you used to customize your witch with Hexes, you now do so with Class Feats (which every class has a different list of), some of which give you Hexes, which in 2e are special debuff spells exclusive to witches, some of which are spammable and the rest which use a per-encounter resource known as Focus Points.
A core difference of the system is how there aren't different spell lists for every single class, but there are just 4: Arcane (basically what used to be the Wizard spell list), Divine (Cleric), Occult (Bard) and Primal (Druid). Witches are unique in that, based on which patron you pick, you can end up with any of the 4 spell lists. As a matter of fact, as of now, Witches are the only Prepared casters with access to the Occult spell list, whereas every other combination of spell list + Prepared/Spontaneous casting has at least 2 classes to choose from.
Compared to 1e, though, they are worse, or at the very least less unique; that's not because they lost anything (apart from a spell slot per level, which hurts but is partially balanced out by Hexes), but because the large customizability Witches used to have thanks to Hexes is now available to everyone in the form of Class Feats. So like Witches can get Cackle or Cauldron as Class Feats, so too can every other class pick and choose interesting specializing abilities when leveling up. Add to that the fact that Witch Class Feats, while still very flavorful, tend to be situationally useful, Witch can start to feel like a worse Wizard. That being said, if your Witch feels like a worse Wizard, that's probably because you are building it and playing it as such.
You can honestly apply that to all caster classes. If they come up with a good explanation, they can use whatever stat.
It doesn't affect the balance, as long as the players do not multiclass too crazily.
I think that's the main thing, so long as they aren't crazy with the multiclassing, everything should be relatively fine, from there it basically is just about saving throws.
My home ruling is that when you get your first level in warlock you choose your casting stat from wisdom, intelligence, and charisma. Whatever you think works best for the flavor of your character.
The Mage Hand Press supplement Valdas Spire of Secrets actually opened my eyes to the idea that it would be super fun if spellcasting classes got to choose their spellcasting ability at character creation.
Valda's even gave new names for each class depending on which ability you chose; Charisma = Warlock / Intelligence = Occultist / Wisdom = Medium.
Absolutely agreed. To people thinking it is charisma because they work out their agreements with their patrons then let me ask this: how exactly do they know how to summon this patron in the first place?
They read through ancient tomes and forbidden grimores just to find the incantion and ritual to finally summon an entity that can grant them knowledge far beyond the things these books were just a teaser to.
“Intelligence”, but, they’re making creepy deals with fiends, not-so-nice old gods, amoral fairies/fey creatures, or talking weapons instead of just reading some books at your local arcane library.
Yup.
I have never played DnD but I still enjoy these videos for some reason
Honestly, I love the idea of just changing the ability modifiers for classes(within reason). Doing this would of course have to be discussed with the dm and there'd have to be an unspoken agreement not to use this kindness to make OP multiclasses. But not only do I think it would be cool to have a caster who maybe even uses their strength to oppressively dominate their goes with spells and as long as the multiclassing is in good faith then I'm even up for that. Dnd for me is about fun and if you have more fun changing stuff that doesn't limit other people's fun(like the dm) then go ahead.
I am now seriously curious as to how you get your hands on mlbb clips. I thought the game wasn't that mainstream but i guess I was wrong.
That aside. Really love your videos.
I think this since the first time I read the PHB and I'm gonna say yes until my last breath
I personally always run my warlocks as wisdom because I like the idea of how well you use unexplainable magic based on how aware and down to earth the character is
Basically warlocks are the definition of knowledge hunters
Yes and no
As their power comes from an entity the entity have to like the being making the pact....as priests also should need to be Cha to me
On the other hand Warlocks should be a Hybrid of Int and Cha considering lore and actual gameplay "health"
I’ve been saying this since day one.
Fun trivia: originally the warlock was an Intelligence caster first, in the tail years of AD&D 2E. It was not until quite a few years later during 3E that WotC's take on warlocks turned them into a weird kind of Sorcerer.
And then in 4E they were either INT/CON casters or INT/CHA casters. But always INT. In the end, the pseudo-grognard wannabes who complained that warlocks should run on CHA "like in previous editions" were plain wrong.
I feel like this should be a subclass option. Because some of the patron options definitely feel like charisma.
Honestly I would’ve been cool to have it depend on your patron, that would be a fun mechanic
I believe warlocks use charisma because your powers effectively depend on how much your patron likes you.
Usually whenever I make a warlock, I always do more of a sort of thing of "Entity gives you warlock powers in exchange for _____ service/occasional 'favor'." I think if you're doing something like that charisma casting makes more sense.
Charisma casting makes sense in general as you either have to convince these entities to give you power or be naturally interesting enough for them to come to you. Plus pacts at large being described as closer to being warped into a pseudo sorcerer casting with will but much less competently rather then a battery that they recharge. Of course backstory flavor trumps rules so maybe you have the choen one background and any extraplaner entitty would come to you in your time of need to make sure youre on their side regardless of if your a nerd, hippy, or a jock.
Then again, warlock's search of forbidden knowledge is what drives them to seek out such entities in the first place. And the power itself is knowledge. As the warlock levels up, the patron shares more and more occult secrets that the warlock uses as spells. Sorcerers learn by trial and error. Wizards learn from books. Warlocks learn directly from teachers.
@@kamchatmonk not really the goolock most definitely, but most others are already pretty well known or could actively seek you out such as a devil extending a deal on your deathbed, an intelligent undead finding you to be an interesting prospect for a thrall, but in all its mostly charisma for 3 reasons. 1 you still have to convince an entity to give you power regardless of the effort it took to meet them, 2 the way a warlocks power works is by evoking them like a sorcerer through force of will (pacts for the most part are actually supposed to be the patron changing the fabric of your being to turn you into a pseudo sorcerer with none of the other things that give them more controll its why the ability to ask for more spell slots isn't a thing untill way later they aren't supplying your magic and why patrons cant take away your soellcasting.), and 3 they arent an arcane caster, they dont use magic theory and such to bend the weave they impart their will with components to focus.
@@Shadow-gc6le 1) From XGtE, Patron attitudes table: "Your patron tricked you into a pact and treats you as a slave." Doesn't look like convincing. Faust didn't have to convince Mephistopheles, it was Mephistopheles that tempted Faust, and it was Faust's knowledge of the occult that let him summon the devil and make a pact to begin with.
From PHB: "Sometimes a traveler in the wilds comes to a strangely beautiful tower, meets its fey lord or lady, and *stumbles into a pact without being fully aware of it."* That also might happen)
2) Source? From PHB, Pact magic feature: "Your *arcane research* and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells."
Eldritch Invocations feature: "In your *study of occult lore,* _you have unearthed_ eldritch invocations, fragments of *forbidden knowledge* that imbue you with an abiding magical ability."
3) From PHB: "Warlocks are *seekers of the knowledge* that lies hidden in the fabric of the multiverse. [...] *Drawing on the ancient knowledge* of beings such as fey nobles, demons, devils, hags, and alien entities of the Far Realm, warlocks *piece together arcane secrets* to bolster their own power."
"The warlock *learns* and grows in power, at the cost of occasional services performed on the patron’s behalf."
"Warlocks are driven by an *insatiable need for knowledge and power,* which compels them into their pacts and shapes their lives. [...] And sometimes, *while poring over tomes of forbidden lore,* a brilliant but crazed student’s mind is opened to realities beyond the material world and to the alien beings that dwell in the outer void."
Warlock is all about knowledge. While relationships with their patrons and circumstances of the pact may vary extremely, the very purpose of warlock and foundation of their power is knowledge, forbidden and obscure arcane secrets.
From XGtE: "Warlocks are *finders and keepers of secrets. They push at the edge of our understanding of the world, always seeking to expand their expertise.* Where sages or wizards might heed a clear sign of danger and end their research, a warlock plunges ahead, heedless of the cost. Thus, it takes a peculiar mixture of *intelligence,* curiosity, and recklessness to produce a warlock."
And here it directly states the warlock needs intelligence, not charisma)
Both sound good tho! Maybe different warlocks could be either, letting the choice be up to the DM depending on the character and their personality or their patron.
I let my warlock be wisdom based, because wisdom is not the eldritch secrets themself, it’s how well she can hold herself up against those eldritch secrets that break most peoples brain, and twist them to be able to be used as a magic power
Hehe, is charisma 'cause you're not trying to get frigging POSSESED BY AN ELDRITCH BEING MUAAAHAHAHAHAH
I wonder, what if certain magical classes could choose what their casting stat would be? Like, some Warlocks are intelligence based, but some might be charisma based. Most Wizards might rely on intelligence, but some might rely on their wisdom-- and some clerics might depend on charisma or intelligence instead of wisdom. You could just let it be a free for all, or have specific options for different classes (a sorcerer wouldn't need intelligence, else they wouldn't be a sorcerer, but maybe they could trade charisma for wisdom?), and their could gives and takes for what choice you make. Just the different skill proficiencies might be enough to differentiate a wisdom based wizard from an intelligence based wizard, but what if the wisdom based wizard could prepare slightly fewer spells than an int based, but had slightly stronger saves/spell attacks? This might destroy a lot of our cultural conceptions of what these classes are supposed to be, but might also open up a new dimension for more interesting casters.
Charisma in dnd isn’t just how attractive or convincing you are, it’s also things like willpower. That’s why banish is a charisma save. You aren’t trying to seduce the spell to fail… so while the lore of warlocks involves knowledge, the way they cast their spells from their patron isn’t a matter of intelligence it’s a matter of willpower and charisma. You’re convincing your patron to give you powers and then channeling their power through yourself which doesn’t make sense for that to be intelligence…
It’s also why sorcerers use charisma, because it represents willpower and innate ability.
Isn't Wisdom willpower though? That's how the wisdom/will saves work is will power is the save, right?
@@Negative1Point No wisdom is your ability to overcome confusion based effects. Things like illusions and charms use wisdom saves because it represents you recognizing the difference between reality and illusion. For example spells like charm person or command might seem like willpower to overcome the compelling suggestions but it's more so a save of recognizing that you're being tricked. The spell is broken by understanding and not willpower.
On the other hand are charisma saves like Bane (which basically puts an actual curse on you), Banishment(which forces you to a different plane of existence), Planar Binding, etc. Those don't seem like they have much to do with being charming do they?
Spells that require wisdom saves are effects that try to manipulate your mind into believing something that isn't true, and instead of having to deal with raw knowledge is more about understanding. Charisma save spells are not effects that are broken by attractiveness or persuasion. You aren't persuading the spellcaster to drop their spell, instead you're using your willpower to resist the effect of the spell. Almost like how a con save is your body physically resisting the effect of something physical like poison or disease.
Commenting here to save this response 🤟
I would love the change to Int, I always wanted to make an artillerist artificer warlock multi-class to make a long range killing machine
I interpreted the charisma based casting as managing to convince your patron to give you a bit more power than they would otherwise
Nah, the lore is about making a “deal.” That’s inherently charisma based.
Lawyering through a contract sounds more like Intelligence to me though
Great point but their power is derived from talking that sweet magical gooch from their eldritch sugar daddy
Ayo faramis, the op goat that if alive for too long can make the enemy team scream into the sky as all their enemies are revived constantly
Me, chuckling in homebrew mercenary spellslinger: I'm in danger.......of winning!
I'm sorry, but after watching your video explaining Charisma, I find it too appropriate they're Charisma Based.
What? No. I mean, I'm not saying that you CANT do that, I just think it's completely against everything a warlock is. Wizards are INT based because they worked hard to study magic and master the arcane arts. Literally all of a Warlock's abilities come from their patron deity. That's why it makes sense for Warlocks to be Charisma based. Because they have to be someone a patron would WANT to make a pact with. If warlocks should be INT based, then why wouldnt Paladins be INT based? They're charisma based for the same reason.
It is very rarely implicated though that a warlock in any way seduces their patrons - It is mostly the patrons who pick their warlocks, so they could as well pick someone with promising intelligence than someone with high charisma. I think it makes perfect sense to build a Warlock either way, in Intelligence or in Charisma.
Remember that charisma is force of will.
The warlock's flavor doesn't have enough of that.
honestly Paladins could easily swap CHA for WIS
also no a Warlock does not _have_ to be charisma based
A Warlocks patron is (A) not a deity, just a being with enough power of it's own to bestow/enhance the warlock's power; and (B) doesn't inherently _want_ to make a pact
Great Old One *explicitly* states that some of these warlocks gained their powers by simply researching too much into eldritch lore, their patron might not even be aware of their existence; and this is not inherent to this particular pact either, a pact could easily be power stolen for any powerful being
Of all the caster-stat swapping you could do, Warlock to INT is the most logical option
Paladins scale from Charisma because their divine spellcasting comes from the strength of their convictions. That’s what Charisma is: willpower and force of personality. Hence why many hardheaded Paladins are so powerful, yet so unlikable.
Warlocks gain spellcasting by receiving a sliver of the Patron’s power, which they grow and develop over the course of their adventures. To the Patron, this is a loan with interest. They invest pennies and get hundreds of dollars in returns. They lose nothing.
Since it comes as a source of energy and not knowledge, the Warlock must project their will on the world around them, same as a Sorcerer. They have no choice but to cast with their feelings. _That_ is why Warlocks cast with Charisma.
Now, who’s to say that a Warlock _needs_ to be likable and personable for a Patron to lend them power? It could be that they’re an awkward but driven person who’s likely to show good returns. If I were an ancient being, I’d be just as inclined to lend power to someone savvy enough to recognize the cost/benefit situation and present that as a logical argument. From there, the intelligent Warlock can find the boundaries and functions of their new powers and find/write formulas that work as spells.
The Patron could also choose to award the Warlock with the cognitive functions and the ‘knack’ for arcane spellcasting - as opposed to making them rely on intuition to harness the Patron’s own ‘natural’ power. And just like that, the Warlock’s INT is increased to the point where it all makes sense now. But since they obtained that knowledge via shortcut, maybe they have a strained/stunted relationship with the Weave and can’t achieve the same precision as Wizards. In this case, though, the Patron would likely pressure the Warlock to tithe more things of value to offset the lack of traditional spiritual loans.
But that’s the beauty of 5e classes; they’re just templates. Easily modifiable, for however the player and DM want it to function. The flavor text is only there to get you thinking about what road you want to take.
@@c.g.278 I'd like to thank you for taking one for the team and being the one to type out the "what is charisma" essay
I always interpreted it as appealing to your patron to siphon more power from them
I really like that based on your pact boon the new warlock can choose their spellcasting ability
I think warlocks should be given the choice of Int, Wis, and Charisma at first level. It would make sense depending on the pact.
Faey are usually Charismatic
Fiends tend to vary from Int and Cha
Great Old Ones would be Focused on Int/Wis from a Lore perspective.
Etc..
That's why in my games, Warlocks are intelligence based and have slightly more spell slots
I always liked the concept of a Warlock sub class that gives some kind of bonus to their spellcasting equal to their intelligence, so they would use both Charisma and Intelligence in tandem, kind of like Fey Wanderer rangers.
I think a bit of it is because, the tidbit that is kinda overlooked is that a warlock has access to these powers via a deal/contract made with a being of higher powers in exchange for enacting their will, which imo says charisma, so I could really see it going either way.
Typically whenever I play a warlock though it's closer to Kratos and Aries. A desperate deal made in haste and is typically regretted later down the line.
My current character is a warforge warlock who's patron gave them freewill as a bit of a game to see what sort of entertaining shenanigans they might get up to, but I do like the idea of having it be int based, because it opens one of my favorite multiclass idea, and that is a hexknight. Eldritch knight Hexblade.
By that definition... I am a real life warlock... without powers
Considering a lot of the warlock theme is being the subject of a powerful influence, wisdom would also be very fitting as you must be strong minded to hold back thst influence and wield its power without becoming corrupted
I think it would be really cool if your patron determines your spell casting abilities. Like great old ones using int, archfey using cha, and celestial using wisdom
I think it's good because of what jocrap said: "and your spellchecks are charisma, cause your gotta impress your big patron with your big - -"
I would be a wizard and take a one level dip in warlock if this were real
In regards to sorlocks:
Clockwork soul should be int based too, so I think just moving both to int for the build works fine
Remember that you could be leeching off power from your patron without them knowing.
My homebrew for warlocks is that they're either CHA, INT, or WIS based dependent upon their patron choice and player background. But I also block multiclassing between casters so that may correct for some imbalance that causes...
I tend to be pretty flexible for my players since they are good sports and don't mind reqrites if things get over or under powered. I had a Warlock want this specifically for a multi class which was completely fine. Having flexible rules for this is fun when everyone is a good sport
One of my warlocks is a Con caster, because he channels otherworldly power through his body (which hurts) to effect the world around him.
An individual signs away their whole existence to a higher power for a little bit of goodies.
This sounds a lot more like some person out partying then it does a researchers driving themselves late night in the lab.
CHA also makes sense since the Warlocks powers are like a loan and if the being giving you the loan is not pleased with how you act you will get your powers taken away. I am certain you need at least a good amount of charisma to get a demon/eldrich Being/angel/goddess/cursed Soul to help you out.
I love the concept of a necromancing warlock makes sense doesn't it
I tried out letting players use a constitution based sorcerer due to their powers being based on their lineage, made things rather interesting and made more sense seeing as they started being able to use concentration spells easier, made different multiclasses possible that made gameplay more fun. May be something i do more often.
remade the Fiend patron so it uses Int and reworked some features to be basically ripping the arcane energy out of enemies when you down them, to restore spell slots. It’s strong but can only be used a limited number of times, like the transmutation ability I gave rather than another Fiend feature.
And warlocks get Shield and some other spells they normally wouldn’t, which is bs that they don’t
I see it more as "insatiable need for power" instead of "need for knowledge".
This is why I use optional/variant spellcasting where if you choose to use a different modifier it will also effect your spell list, and i keep it as a optional rule so players dont have to be obligated to do so
In Pathfinder 2e there’s a class called Witch which, to me, is basically their version of Warlock as a big part of them is having a Patron and they just got some similar themes. They’re Intelligence based too.
(Actually the Witch is practically a Chainlock / Wizard mix: intelligence caster, got a patron, a big deal about the class is having a better familiar than anyone else which also functions as your spell book)
I feel like it would make sense for them to be either cha or int depending on how the player wants to play them mainly because they could have either studied there way into locating the entity they are gaining power from (which can give a lot of flavor to your backstory) or you can flavor it as they were able to charm and or convince the entity to grant them there abilities
I like the Idea of a Constitution caster! Better concentration and the idea of your spells being based on your health is kinda cool.
Say hello to my new hex singer, who casts agognized eldritch blast and eldritch smites in the same turn
Intelligence drives them but charisma powers their interaction with their patreon
I just interpreted as that warlocks don't wanna work for that knowledge
This is one of the reasons I really like Level Up 5e, warlocks get to pick at level 1 which mental ability score they want to use for casting
I actually play a Wizlock and I love it, despite the strange stat combo!
I agree with the comments saying you should be able to choose between INT and CHA. Some Warlocks get power by endless searching, but some are given power by beings who like them or think they’re worthy. They also have to convince someone to give them power, rather than learning it.
But I do think Sorcerers should be constitution based.
When a dragon is meeting me it's final years it's the dragons charisma that dictates how long it stays around charisma is like constitution for dragons
Sounds like wisdom to me because Intelligence is how fast you process information, wisdom is knowledge and that’s what information you’ve already processed.
monkey dm: warlo-
Me: FARAMIS
I also add a few spells to their list if they chose to be int casters (yes I made sure it doesn’t mess with any subclasses). They are Detect Magic, Augury, Clairvoyance, Divination, Locate Creature, Commune, and Legend Lore.
Consider that Warlocks are the class of deal-makers. They are so good at making deals that they are trading often material things for eldritch power from extra planar beings. Making deals is helped by intelligence so that you understand the value of what is being traded, but charisma helps you sell it
YES! A Warficer Eldric artillerymen would be sick!
It does open up for a really cool hex bladesinger multiclass that I would love to play
And this is why I'm making my class, the Summoner, Intelligence based with a charisma side-focus
I think wisdom also works, since in cases like a eldritch being your probably going to be alot better at using their power if your able to see them without frothing at the mouth because of cosmic epilepsy
I once made a cleric warlock multi class. I was bored and dndbeyond didn’t stop me
It is a good point actually and I felt the same way the first time I learned about the tome pact but this doesn’t necesarrily mean that they should only be Int.
I feel like contacting your patron requires a lot of courage and confidence which relies to charisma. When a kraken gives you powers, a normal wizard would crap their pants most of the time but a warlock can take it and that’s why the kraken chose him to give powers to. Side note: I also think charisma increases the likelyhood of you getting chosen by a patron to get powers from.
I kinda of like the idea of like the savant warlock that took short cuts to get that knowledge.
Modern day pact with the devil to ace exams.
So, I agree that for most of their stuff, it just makes more sense for their main stat to be INT. The thing is, the actual casting could by done by a feral goblin for all the patron cares. If the patron likes you, they'll pump more energy into you. I think that's why Warlocks use Charisma casting.
I do have a homebrew mechanic when I DM(which is rare) where Warlocks and Clerics can use their patron's Intelligence stat when they ask their patron for help on a skill check.
The charisma comes from convincing patrons and such
Having the charisma to convince a potential patron to give you some of their power is the difference between a warlock and some random cultist who's done some studying
As I understand it, Charisma was ultimately chosen because of the presence of a Patron. Basically because they're constantly trying to appeal to them, and convince them that they are worthy of mystical power.
I always imagined a warlock getting stronger by simply bargaining with their patron to give them more power, which would fit charisma a lot more.
I wouldn't mind different types of ability scores being the warlocks base, depending on the pact.
I like the idea of warlocks using charisma to bargain for better powers from their patrons but I can also see int working.
It would be so cool and makes Backstory reasonable and cooler
With that, the only excuse I can think for a warlock being charisma based, is if his patron is basically "friends with benefits"
Warlocks are charisma based because they need to be charming enough to convince their patron to lend their power