I love the idea that Baylan and Shin, as one of the first real Canon portrayals of the concept of “Dark Jedi” (as separate from the Sith), are truly a dark and twisted reflection of the old Order, as reflected in Shin’s Padawan braid. Baylan has survived the destruction, and unlike others like Taron Malicos, is indeed carrying on the tradition of the Jedi in taking a Padawan of his own, though clearly he’s learned the wrong lessons from the war and from the Empire that followed it. And he’s passing on those flawed lessons to his fiery and destructive young ‘Padawan’, whose only understanding of the Jedi and the Force comes through her master’s dark and fractured lens of understanding. I think of Shin as if she were like how Ahsoka was at the start of the Clone Wars. Young and with a malleable mind, becoming a reflection of who she’s learning from, her entire worldview informed by what she’s been taught and by who. He isn’t necessarily trying to rebuild the Order as Luke is, but he’s just trying to continue his own demented version of its legacy through his apprentice. Their orange-red lightsabers feel like the perfect visual that instantly conveys how niche and unique their own little corner of the Dark Side is.
With the Sith gone, there's almost a struggle to ensure the future of what a Jedi is in this new era. Luke is trying to start his academy but Baylan is training his own Dark Jedi padawan and Ahsoka is floating around both. Reminds me of Thrawn's comments on the Jedi to Ezra in the Rebels finale: Jedi who view the Force as a weapon, a tool versus Jedi who adhere to the light.
@@malachiphoniex8501 Well, Ahsoka is in line with Luke's new Order, she may just not be an official member of it. She's already learned quite a bit, a master in her own right.
Yeah, they're Jedi who use the force a bit more aggressively. Whereas many Jedi, like Ahsoka, Kanan, Cal, etc become what the Jedi should've been, this guy is holding on to a perverted version of the previous Jedi Order.
Ahsoka stated outright in Rebels that she doesn’t consider herself a Jedi, though many fans see her as an example of what a Jedi should be in that era without adhering to their dogmatic beliefs. To this end and in my humble opinion, I think the best term to describe Ahsoka as a Force adept.
I've always thought Ahsoka and Kanan were examples of the new Jedi. They both had to learn about the Force on their own after Order 66. They resisted the Dark and worked to help others. They remained in the Light and showed that the dogma of the Jedi Order wasn't needed.
@leovalverde1508 Yeah, very true. The Jedi on their own after the Purge were more balanced than the ones who were living during the Order in its final centuries
@@leovalverde1508 Ashoka saw what the Jedi order had become and couldn't call herself Jedi anymore during the clone wars. Also she holds the life force of the sister, And that makes her more then just a jedi.
i love how the trailer is recontextualizing “i am no jedi” as a low point for ahsoka. her arc in the final season of TCW also emphasizes that, i think baylan being on a parallel path to her is going to be fascinating.
Honestly, these two characters are the ones I'm interested in the most. It's so refreshing to see new Dark Side antagonists that don't wear black helmets, or that are part of the Inquisitorious.
I’d honestly love it if Baylan betrays Thrawn and tries to use his resources to take over the galaxy, and Shin helps Ahsoka and could possibly become a main player.
While it's likely the two Dark Jedi will have their own hidden agenda that may or may not involve Thrawn, I hope Shin Hati will stay a villain, especially since (sadly) we won't be seeing Baylan Skoll past Season 1. At this point, the villain redemption arc has been overdone.
I imagine that Baylan could be in some way, a new version of Joruus C'Baoth. He has seen the galaxy fall into so much disorder and wants to order it properly out of a desire to do good. He likely knows the New Republic to be corrupt, and wants to fight both them and the Imperial Remnant out of a desire to do good at any cost. Shin could be like a dark side version of Lorana Jinzler in that case. Like Kylo Ren and C'baoth, though, it is a slippery slope into villainy.
Thank you Star Wars Explained for always making the best content. Your channel gives us joy and happiness - we can't wait to experience Ahsoka with you!
I am calling Baylan a " Lost Jedi ". A jedi who has taken a wrong turn and moved away from the light side while vehemently rejecting the path of the Sith. He thinks he is charting a new course for himself and his apprentice, but really his blundering into the darkness.
I'm really looking forward to learning more about Baylan and Shin. I love the Sith as villains but Dark Jedi are also very interesting because their motivations and goals can be so different and unique from each other. I think Baylan and Anakin may have been Padawans at the same time and the idea of Ahsoka having to face a fellow Order 66 Survivor, someone who went through what she did but chose a darker path, makes for such a good set up. The fact that he knew Anakin just makes their confrontation all the more exciting. It's going to be so bittersweet because of the sad passing of Ray Stevenson. Definitely going to make everything hit so much harder. Shin also looks so badass and interesting. I'm less certain what her backstory might be but honestly I like that. I'm looking forward to the master and apprentice dynamic with her and Baylan. I'm also unsure what's driving them or what it is they're looking for by finding Thrawn. I don't think they're working towards balance or peace, Baylan says they'll find "power" when they find Thrawn and that "war is inevitable". I'm definitely curious what their endgame is, could be the World Between Worlds, which would be cool to see.
One thing I haven’t seen anyone mention is that their last names are Skoll and Hati, which are the names of the two wolves that chase the sun and moon in Norse Mythology. Granted, Filoni is a big fan of Wolves, so that could just be for him, but I can see this working in 2 ways. Skoll and Hati catch the sun and moon during Ragnarok, the end of all things, so perhaps they will act as agents to end this era of Star Wars and start another. The other possibility is that they simply just represent opposites and balance, again, attempting to be grey Jedi by being both light and dark force users
Thank you!!!! I haven't seen or heard anyone mention this either and I feel like it's incredibly telling. We won't know what it's telling until we get to meet the characters officially through the show, but I'm 100% certain those last names were entirely intentional
If the character baylan doesn’t die in the show, they should just recast him since the actor tragically passed away. Hopefully they don’t clumsily write the character out of the story when it’s obvious his arc isn’t over
I've never really thought of a gray Jedi as someone who thinks they need the light and dark sides of the force. Rather I think it's someone who's willing to accept there are grey areas in life that mean you can't just blindly adhere to dogma. Jolee Bindo being one of the quintessential examples. I'd consider Ahsoka a perfect example too. Still a Jedi, not tapping into darkness, just rejecting the strict rules imposed by the Order as the only way to be a good person/Jedi.
I think people just like to use the term "Gray Jedi" to describe people who aren't strictly Jedi or Sith because "Gray Force User" doesn't really roll off the tongue as well. There was a time when evil Force users who didn't strictly adhere to the traditions of the Sith were called "Dark Jedi" so that might have something to do with it too. People just recognize the term Jedi more readily. Maybe "Gray Jedi" need their own unique term to identify themselves?
If that’s what they’re exploring with Baylon and Shin, I suspect that we’ll finally have a unique and “correct” term to refer to these people! I’m excited for it!
The grey jedi thing is possible. "Start down the dark path and it will dominate your destiny" is bullshit so far. Ezra literally used the dark side and the sith holocron on multiple occaisons and is still, to our kowledge anyway, a good character who makes selfless choices. Idk why some people have latched onto the idea its impossible when canon itself provides evidence suggesting otherwise at this time.
Ever since I found this channel for my Star Wars needs yall have been my favorite... using the "Pizza/ French fry" but from South Park just catapulted you to all time legendary humans
Skoll and Hati are actually names from norse mythology, they are wolves that chase the sun and moon respectively, and they are the sons of Fenrir. I wonder if this could be related to their characters in some way?
I've always viewed Order 66 as the rebirth of the Jedi and it was all the rules and detachment that corrupted the Jedi, not the Jedi themselves. Thus, it always seemed weird that Ahsoka continued to remain apart from the New Jedi; I get why she left originally but there's nothing wrong with being a Jedi.
Interesting because that's how I always viewed it myself. Because if the Jedi did have some form of base attachment, for example to their troops, they would have sensed the betrayal way ahead of time, similar to what you did when he connected with the force and his own troops and thus was able to survive it. Once again, you don't want to be overly attached to something, but you don't want to be disintaged entirely. You have to find balance within your life and because life ebbs and flows and is somewhat chaotic, you're always changing. Always learning, always evolving and always rebalancing.
I’m mostly not a fan of the Force and Jedi/Sith in Star Wars because of the guidelines and power rules seem fairly undefined. I’d love it if Ahsoka and/or The Acolyte did a bit of exploration of the essential concepts of how this stuff works. Like, in RotS, Anakin seems to flip from somewhat questioning the Jedi and wanting to save Padme to fully embracing the Dark Side in the turn of a single scene. It would be a bit helpful to find out that the Dark Side has some kind of an intoxicating effect for Force Users and that’s why Grey Jedi aren’t really a thing because once you’ve gone Dark, it is VERY hard to go cold turkey and quit the addiction. Likewise Anakin turns *back* to the Light in a single scene by just throwing an old wizard down a pit. It would be nice if there was a bit of delineation and rules for Force Powers. When magic is in a setting, unless rules are made fairly explicit, the story starts to suffer with “why not just…” questions (ie why not use the Mind Trick *way* more to just make stormtroopers kill each other? How many people can you Mind Trick at once? Why not Force Run way more than one shot in Phantom Menace? What is the line between killing and the Dark Side with Jedi? Can they just not do it out of anger and they’re gtg? Would that make a psychopath a pretty decent Jedi? etc etc). I was hoping for a bit more exploration of the pros and cons of the Jedi Order in The Last Jedi (Luke seemed pretty disillusioned with their teachings), but that didn’t happen. Many of us have played Jedi games and those are fun and challenging because of the games’ rules; just thinking “why didn’t Obi Wan just Force Crush all of Grievous’ limbs?” becomes distracting
While I don’t believe that balance means just the light, I think it’d be really interesting to see an exploration of how even a bit of the dark side can corrupt.
Yeah, so they're "Dark Jedi", Jedi who use the force a bit more aggressively. Whereas many Jedi after the Purge, like Ahsoka, Kanan, Cal, etc become what the Jedi should've been, this guy is holding on to a perverted version of the previous Jedi Order. Its like if Nightsisters/brothers suddenly tried to replace what was lost with the Jedi Order, not exactly sith but, they're not properly doing what Jedi should be. Luke's Order will fix the flaws of the various Orders from the past before the Purge. But Baylan seems to be teaching Shin the more aggresive parts of the Old Jedi Order, what he thinks is necessary to survive out in the Galaxy after viewing the rise of the Empire
Unfortunately I love the term Grey Jedi, but I never thought of it as someone who uses both light and dark side powers. Mainly because most of the dark side powers are bad/evil. I've always thought of Grey Jedi as force users who don't adhere to the Jedi code and don't try to deny their feeling and emotions. The Jedi of the Galactic Republic really made it seem like they should never feel fear, love, hatred, depression, etc. I believe a true Grey Jedi or even just a true Jedi is someone who accepts all aspects of themselves and has learned to live with their feelings and emotions.
I saw some comments earlier about this but I know both have stated they aren't Jedi but couldn't they fulfill the role of Dark Jedi since they aren't Sith?
To me they may reflect what the Jedi would have become if it took longer to get to Order 66. Doing what needs to be done for galactic peace. That slow slide to the dark side. Ahsoka stepped off that path, and moved further to the light, but she still has an edge.
Nice to bring back old, but not "known" characters, from the time of order 66 with Baylan and Shin Hati, and explaining how they became evil mercenaries for Thrawn, after Baylan survived order 66 as is read on multiple sites
My big brain take on the whole story is that the New Republic is corrupt in weak and thrown in the remaining imperial remnant I think this is going to be similar to from's original trilogies stories, but in a new context with the prequels in that he almost wins but doesn't get betrayed by his subordinate but instead gets betrayed by what will eventually become the first order because it's Palpatine all along. I think what we're seeing with the imperial remnant is the difference between the imperials who see imperialism as order and pride and what the imperial remnant and the empire actually was, which was just basically a fan club for palpatine. And this ties in the whole idea that being steeped into the dark side of the force is self-sabotaging. Always had Siri but the reason why Paul patine's rule was so short was because as the ruler tooth states you need to have one sith that holds power and another that craves it. I feel that Paul patine had always craved it and then once he got it he didn't know what to do with it. How to obtain and take and steel power but he has no idea what to do or how to wield it. Thought that was symbolic with his force lightning, which while I wish it was written better thought it was really poetic that his inability to control his lightning first against mace window and then at his demise at the hand of his granddaughter symbolizes obsession with power, but his inability to control it and wield it is self-sabotaging and ultimately does him in. He truly is the epitome of the sith and it representative of the extreme dark side of the force.
A conflict between a former Jedi still unsure of her place in the Force and a former Jedi tapping into Sith teachings would make for a compelling central story...Just please don't involve time travel
I don't think we should call anyone outside the Order a Jedi, but if you remember Tales of the Jedi when Ahsoka appears on a tiger-like creature Gantika says "Jedi, Ahsoka is Jedi" as if being Force sensitive were equal to be a Jedi. Idk if that's a hint on what being a Jedi is to Disney now or if it was nothing. There's Cal Kestis, too. I would say that a grey Jedi is one who have left the order but lives according to the Jedi way like Ahsoka, but not a former Jedi who has embrace the dark side. I guess we'll see soon where this goes.
The terms you were looking for are "Rogue Force Users" and "Ronin Force Users". Baylan Skoll, Maul, and Ahsoka were all Ronin Force Users who once did, but no longer align to Jedi/Sith paths. Shin Hati and Asajj Ventress were Rogue Force Users who were never Jedi or Sith. The Night Sisters? Rogue Force Users. Maz Kanata? I guess that would depend on if we ever find out whether or not she was ever a Jedi. The Inquisitors? They weren't Ronin, because they served a master. They weren't rogues because (as far as I know) they were all Jedi once. Maybe "Turned Force User"?
"orange and black were chosen for their opposing associations-orange being the warmth of life and black the darkness of death." Both characters are in very dark, dare I say black robes, while sporting fiercely orange lightsabers. Every which way you look at them, they are personification of "balance". There was the Luke discussing balance of life and death. The Bendu teaching Ezra to let go. Anakin fulfilling his destiny, balancing the force. You balance light and dark on a "fulcrum".
Look up Skoll & Hati in Norse mythology. They are the 2 wolves chasing the sun & the moon. They are part of the start of Ragnarok when they swallow the sun & the moon.
Sorry, Alex. I just don't agree with your interpretation of the Force. I think the idea that the light side is pure good and the dark side is pure evil is something that Star Wars has *heavily* moved away from for a very long time now. At the beginning it was this black and white but now it has pretty much transformed into a story about balance and extremism. And balance absolutely means an equilibrium of two opposing forces. George Lucas has made this very clear. Anakin was the chosen one. It was his destiny to bring the Force into balance, which he did by both eradicating the Jedi AND the Sith. The whole point of Yoda and Obi-Wan saying you can't come back from the dark side and it's gonna possess you forever, is that they were *wrong* ! They always were. Anakin *did* return from the dark side. Luke did dip into it and it didn't corrupt him. So did Ezra. So did Rey. So did Kal. It was the Jedi and their fanatical clinging to the light that brought the Force out of balance in the first place. They got as corrupted by the light as the Sith were by the dark. And that's the *real* problem. Extremism! The Sith aren't evil because of the dark side but because they let themselfs get corrupted by the dark side. They push it to the extreme. Just like the Jedi got too scared of anything that could lead to the dark side and that's exactly what created it in Anakin. They pushed the light to its extreme and it was just as disastrous. Remember the Bendu? He literally said he is both the light and the dark. Proving it is very much possible and seemingly a force-wielders final form. And honestly, I like Star Wars more like this. It is closer to the real world where even the most well-meaning idiology can become problematic when pushed to its extreme. It's a better message then just "Don't do dark side stuff, kids!"
Thank you Alex! I don't like the grey jedi term for the same reason, but maybe this show will give us something besides Revanite since not everyone knows about those games.
Thanks for all the work you put in! In one of those Ahsoka spots, it sounds like Baykal Skoll knows that Anakin became Vader. Am I correct in understanding that Thrawn, Tarkin, Jocasta Nu and eventually Ahsoka knew who Vader was? Are there others that I’m unaware of who also knew Vader’s identity?
If I were the writer for The Force Awakens, I would've written that Grand Master Luke died waiting for his new apprentice, leaving Rey (or other) to declare that she (/he) will not learn to use the Force and yet another solution to learning the Jedi arts comes their way in the form of other young Force sensitives whose parents trained with Luke as young adults
Bruh there were TEN THOUSAND JEDI, having a few dozen survivors doesn’t water it down at all especially since legends had over 200 Jedi survive order 66. Also what about obi wans message in episode 3?
I cannot agree with the people saying Gray Jedis don't work. Qui-Gon was on the fringe of being a Gray Jedi. He was just a push away from completely leaving the Order, given his disappointment at how they went about doing things as well as their resistance to the will of the Force (even though they were supposed to uphold the will of the Force), time and time again. Gray Jedi, however, could fall under Gray morality. During a mission, Qui-Gon ordered Obi-Wan to help him kill a giant beast (unrelated to their mission). Obi-Wan asked why it was necessary. Qui-Gon responded that the Force had pushed him to do so (I assume because the creature would have caused some problem as well as some dark-ripples on that planet). Point being: It's really annoying, naïve (and childish) to argue that there are only "2 Sides" to everything. This isn't a sports game. Quit treating it as such.
I've been reading through the comments and I still see one group being left out of the possibilities. The Jensaari, they appeared in the Michael Stackpole novel 'I, Jedi.' If my memory serves, they had a loose connection to Thrawn.
I'm gonna use the darkside just a little bit for my noble goals to bring balance because it's too much lightside some darkside is needed. In star wars it's like saying "this city is too safe it needs some drug trade for balance".
If I could choose to stay on one side of the force, it's that I mostly try to stay on the light, but I defenetely can get into the dark side, sometimes more strongly, sometimes more lightly, here and there.
I’ve never seen evidence or thought for one moment that Ahsoka had any doubts about the light side of the force. No doubt she left the Order but feelings about the force never wavered in my opinion. Unless everyone is saying the only way to follow the light side is to be a Jedi. Not. Also the robe color thing is being blown way out of proportion.
The grey jedi thing is possible. "Start down the path and it will dominate your destiny" is bullshit so far. Ezra literally used the dark side and the sith holocron on multiple occaisons and is still, to our kowledge anyway, a good character who makes selfless choices. Idk why some people have latched onto the idea its impossible when canon itself provides evidence suggesting otherwise at this time.
Lol I can totally see Dave Filoni writing a whole show to disprove the idea of a "grey jedi" after everyone called Ahsoka a grey jedi which probably annoyed him.
Actually, Buddhist teachings clearly state that balancing one's light side and dark side is the ideal state. So the Grey Jedi are technically on the more correct path. .. Look at Dr. Strange, hes a GOOD wizard, but he occasionally uses dark magic to achieve victory against evil, while maintaining his core goodness
I like the idea of a "neutral " or Grey Jedi, but using your Knights of the Old Republic game example... It doesn't work. I played KOTOR all the way to the end, doing good and bad, sitting firmly in the center of the force stream and... It didn't work. You had to be either full light side or full dark side to defeat the bad guy in the story. So, I LIKE the Grey idea... Not sure if it would work. :)
The perfect villans for the former jedi who no longer identifies as a jedi but uses the force for good, are former jedi who no longer identity as jedi nor sith but use the force for evil.
*Sigh* Han: "THAT'S NOT HOW THE FORCE WORKS!" There's no 'light side'. There's the Force, and dark side corruption. I believe the only actual mention of 'light' in any Star Wars media is Rey's throw-away line while Luke trains her. Every lesson so far in Star Wars has shown that you can't be neutral (ie Bendu), and twisting the Force will corrupt you.
Plenty of times has the Light been mentioned in books. Not everything nust be taken literally, either: Yoda doesn't say "Light Side" but he talks about avoiding the Dark Side, and he talks about luminous beings. It implies The Light Side as a concept, even as a natural part of the Force.
I actually really disagree with invoking Lucas' interviews as a source on how the force works. The word of god is not considered a valid citation on Wookieepedia, and Lucas isn't even that anymore, a decade after he sold the right to decide what the force is to Disney.
It has already been said that these 2 are in line with the inquisitors in star wars there is a inquisitors in one of the trailers that they don't fight u are wrong and way off base I think these are a new type of sith and it is said they work for thrawn that makes them some sort of sith
I think the idea of balancing the light and the dark is stupid and goes against Star Wars fundamentals. If it's shown in Skoll and Hati, I think it needs to be made absolutely clear that this does not work.
For Baylan and Shin, I like the red-orange sabers. I'd like the reason for the color to be an unintentional bleeding of the crystals in them. At some point during Order 66 or after the failure of the Jedi, the relentless pursuit of Vader and the Inquisitors and constantly losing people they care about led to them losing a lot, but not all of their faith in the light side of the force, and all their pain was channelled through their sabers into their crystals. They haven't fully fallen; there's enough holding them to the light that they will do what's 'necessary' but no more than that. But really, both the Jedi & Sith are wrong. Balance between light and dark is the goal; trying to stamp out one in favor of the other is a fool's errand - both are easier paths because they deal in absolutes.
I don't know what their back stories are, but I don't get the impression from the trailers that these 2 characters are going to be consequential, as they relate to Ahsoka. I think Grand Admiral Thrawn will be main protagonist and create most of the drama.
Really hope Shin kills Sabine in their duel. Give us some depth that these guys are for real. Ashoka beating Babylon and that inquisitor … like 3-0 is too much.
How come you’re not on strike, too? You’re a writer and creator. You may not be part of those unions but aren’t you going to strike in solidarity of your artistic brethren?
I love the idea that Baylan and Shin, as one of the first real Canon portrayals of the concept of “Dark Jedi” (as separate from the Sith), are truly a dark and twisted reflection of the old Order, as reflected in Shin’s Padawan braid.
Baylan has survived the destruction, and unlike others like Taron Malicos, is indeed carrying on the tradition of the Jedi in taking a Padawan of his own, though clearly he’s learned the wrong lessons from the war and from the Empire that followed it.
And he’s passing on those flawed lessons to his fiery and destructive young ‘Padawan’, whose only understanding of the Jedi and the Force comes through her master’s dark and fractured lens of understanding. I think of Shin as if she were like how Ahsoka was at the start of the Clone Wars. Young and with a malleable mind, becoming a reflection of who she’s learning from, her entire worldview informed by what she’s been taught and by who.
He isn’t necessarily trying to rebuild the Order as Luke is, but he’s just trying to continue his own demented version of its legacy through his apprentice. Their orange-red lightsabers feel like the perfect visual that instantly conveys how niche and unique their own little corner of the Dark Side is.
With the Sith gone, there's almost a struggle to ensure the future of what a Jedi is in this new era. Luke is trying to start his academy but Baylan is training his own Dark Jedi padawan and Ahsoka is floating around both.
Reminds me of Thrawn's comments on the Jedi to Ezra in the Rebels finale: Jedi who view the Force as a weapon, a tool versus Jedi who adhere to the light.
@@malachiphoniex8501
Well, Ahsoka is in line with Luke's new Order, she may just not be an official member of it. She's already learned quite a bit, a master in her own right.
Yeah, they're Jedi who use the force a bit more aggressively. Whereas many Jedi, like Ahsoka, Kanan, Cal, etc become what the Jedi should've been, this guy is holding on to a perverted version of the previous Jedi Order.
Ahsoka stated outright in Rebels that she doesn’t consider herself a Jedi, though many fans see her as an example of what a Jedi should be in that era without adhering to their dogmatic beliefs. To this end and in my humble opinion, I think the best term to describe Ahsoka as a Force adept.
I've always thought Ahsoka and Kanan were examples of the new Jedi. They both had to learn about the Force on their own after Order 66. They resisted the Dark and worked to help others. They remained in the Light and showed that the dogma of the Jedi Order wasn't needed.
@leovalverde1508
Yeah, very true. The Jedi on their own after the Purge were more balanced than the ones who were living during the Order in its final centuries
@@leovalverde1508 Cal Kestis. Unlike Ahsoka, Cal never turned his back in the order. He's even able to use the dark side without being corrupted.
@@leovalverde1508 Ashoka saw what the Jedi order had become and couldn't call herself Jedi anymore during the clone wars. Also she holds the life force of the sister, And that makes her more then just a jedi.
i love how the trailer is recontextualizing “i am no jedi” as a low point for ahsoka. her arc in the final season of TCW also emphasizes that, i think baylan being on a parallel path to her is going to be fascinating.
Honestly, these two characters are the ones I'm interested in the most. It's so refreshing to see new Dark Side antagonists that don't wear black helmets, or that are part of the Inquisitorious.
I’d honestly love it if Baylan betrays Thrawn and tries to use his resources to take over the galaxy, and Shin helps Ahsoka and could possibly become a main player.
Baylan's actor passed away
@@deeeeznuts Unfortunately, yes. After shooting the series.
I think that is his plan from the start, let thrawn rebuild.. then take it from him
If they ruin Thrawn imma box mickey mouse man. Thrawn is hella smart aint nobody is going to betray him, without him noticing it.
While it's likely the two Dark Jedi will have their own hidden agenda that may or may not involve Thrawn, I hope Shin Hati will stay a villain, especially since (sadly) we won't be seeing Baylan Skoll past Season 1. At this point, the villain redemption arc has been overdone.
Very curious to see these characters on the show, Baylan and Shin look amazing
I imagine that Baylan could be in some way, a new version of Joruus C'Baoth. He has seen the galaxy fall into so much disorder and wants to order it properly out of a desire to do good. He likely knows the New Republic to be corrupt, and wants to fight both them and the Imperial Remnant out of a desire to do good at any cost. Shin could be like a dark side version of Lorana Jinzler in that case. Like Kylo Ren and C'baoth, though, it is a slippery slope into villainy.
Thank you Star Wars Explained for always making the best content. Your channel gives us joy and happiness - we can't wait to experience Ahsoka with you!
This
I am calling Baylan a " Lost Jedi ". A jedi who has taken a wrong turn and moved away from the light side while vehemently rejecting the path of the Sith. He thinks he is charting a new course for himself and his apprentice, but really his blundering into the darkness.
I love the idea that their alignment is kinda "chaotic neutral", but I'm generally just so excited for this show!
I'm really looking forward to learning more about Baylan and Shin. I love the Sith as villains but Dark Jedi are also very interesting because their motivations and goals can be so different and unique from each other. I think Baylan and Anakin may have been Padawans at the same time and the idea of Ahsoka having to face a fellow Order 66 Survivor, someone who went through what she did but chose a darker path, makes for such a good set up. The fact that he knew Anakin just makes their confrontation all the more exciting. It's going to be so bittersweet because of the sad passing of Ray Stevenson. Definitely going to make everything hit so much harder.
Shin also looks so badass and interesting. I'm less certain what her backstory might be but honestly I like that. I'm looking forward to the master and apprentice dynamic with her and Baylan.
I'm also unsure what's driving them or what it is they're looking for by finding Thrawn. I don't think they're working towards balance or peace, Baylan says they'll find "power" when they find Thrawn and that "war is inevitable". I'm definitely curious what their endgame is, could be the World Between Worlds, which would be cool to see.
Skoll and Hati sound a LOT like the two wolves from Norse mythology. They're said to cause Ragnarok, the end of the world.
One thing I haven’t seen anyone mention is that their last names are Skoll and Hati, which are the names of the two wolves that chase the sun and moon in Norse Mythology. Granted, Filoni is a big fan of Wolves, so that could just be for him, but I can see this working in 2 ways. Skoll and Hati catch the sun and moon during Ragnarok, the end of all things, so perhaps they will act as agents to end this era of Star Wars and start another. The other possibility is that they simply just represent opposites and balance, again, attempting to be grey Jedi by being both light and dark force users
Thank you!!!! I haven't seen or heard anyone mention this either and I feel like it's incredibly telling. We won't know what it's telling until we get to meet the characters officially through the show, but I'm 100% certain those last names were entirely intentional
Thank you ...i am a starwars fan, but i like nothern mythology so the Names of my Alaskan Malamutes are Hati and Skölli
If the character baylan doesn’t die in the show, they should just recast him since the actor tragically passed away. Hopefully they don’t clumsily write the character out of the story when it’s obvious his arc isn’t over
We live in an era when Lucasfilm president herself blames the box office fiasco of Solo on Han being played by another actor :|
I've never really thought of a gray Jedi as someone who thinks they need the light and dark sides of the force. Rather I think it's someone who's willing to accept there are grey areas in life that mean you can't just blindly adhere to dogma. Jolee Bindo being one of the quintessential examples. I'd consider Ahsoka a perfect example too. Still a Jedi, not tapping into darkness, just rejecting the strict rules imposed by the Order as the only way to be a good person/Jedi.
I think people just like to use the term "Gray Jedi" to describe people who aren't strictly Jedi or Sith because "Gray Force User" doesn't really roll off the tongue as well. There was a time when evil Force users who didn't strictly adhere to the traditions of the Sith were called "Dark Jedi" so that might have something to do with it too. People just recognize the term Jedi more readily. Maybe "Gray Jedi" need their own unique term to identify themselves?
Exactly. Qui Gon even said that Maul was well trained in the Jedi arts.
If that’s what they’re exploring with Baylon and Shin, I suspect that we’ll finally have a unique and “correct” term to refer to these people! I’m excited for it!
“Grey Jedi” do need a more unique name. Also if the force is a river jedi go with the current, Sith go against you can’t do both at the same time
The grey jedi thing is possible. "Start down the dark path and it will dominate your destiny" is bullshit so far.
Ezra literally used the dark side and the sith holocron on multiple occaisons and is still, to our kowledge anyway, a good character who makes selfless choices.
Idk why some people have latched onto the idea its impossible when canon itself provides evidence suggesting otherwise at this time.
@@maxo.9928 do you really want to try hard drugs to see if you’d get addicted or not
in Norse mythology Sköll and Hati are the wolves that will eat the sun and the moon on the eve of Ragnarök
Ever since I found this channel for my Star Wars needs yall have been my favorite... using the "Pizza/ French fry" but from South Park just catapulted you to all time legendary humans
Skoll and Hati are actually names from norse mythology, they are wolves that chase the sun and moon respectively, and they are the sons of Fenrir.
I wonder if this could be related to their characters in some way?
Just like Ahsoka is a "non-Jedi light side user". They are "non-sith dark side users", kinda like Dark Jedi, but maybe a bit less dark?
Yea, like Ventress or Savage
I like being surprised about new characters we see in the trailers, we should all find out together who they are!
I've always viewed Order 66 as the rebirth of the Jedi and it was all the rules and detachment that corrupted the Jedi, not the Jedi themselves. Thus, it always seemed weird that Ahsoka continued to remain apart from the New Jedi; I get why she left originally but there's nothing wrong with being a Jedi.
Interesting because that's how I always viewed it myself. Because if the Jedi did have some form of base attachment, for example to their troops, they would have sensed the betrayal way ahead of time, similar to what you did when he connected with the force and his own troops and thus was able to survive it. Once again, you don't want to be overly attached to something, but you don't want to be disintaged entirely. You have to find balance within your life and because life ebbs and flows and is somewhat chaotic, you're always changing. Always learning, always evolving and always rebalancing.
@jordanwhite352 Love can exist without selfishness, and this is something that the PT Jedi didn't understand.
I’m mostly not a fan of the Force and Jedi/Sith in Star Wars because of the guidelines and power rules seem fairly undefined. I’d love it if Ahsoka and/or The Acolyte did a bit of exploration of the essential concepts of how this stuff works. Like, in RotS, Anakin seems to flip from somewhat questioning the Jedi and wanting to save Padme to fully embracing the Dark Side in the turn of a single scene. It would be a bit helpful to find out that the Dark Side has some kind of an intoxicating effect for Force Users and that’s why Grey Jedi aren’t really a thing because once you’ve gone Dark, it is VERY hard to go cold turkey and quit the addiction. Likewise Anakin turns *back* to the Light in a single scene by just throwing an old wizard down a pit.
It would be nice if there was a bit of delineation and rules for Force Powers. When magic is in a setting, unless rules are made fairly explicit, the story starts to suffer with “why not just…” questions (ie why not use the Mind Trick *way* more to just make stormtroopers kill each other? How many people can you Mind Trick at once? Why not Force Run way more than one shot in Phantom Menace? What is the line between killing and the Dark Side with Jedi? Can they just not do it out of anger and they’re gtg? Would that make a psychopath a pretty decent Jedi? etc etc). I was hoping for a bit more exploration of the pros and cons of the Jedi Order in The Last Jedi (Luke seemed pretty disillusioned with their teachings), but that didn’t happen. Many of us have played Jedi games and those are fun and challenging because of the games’ rules; just thinking “why didn’t Obi Wan just Force Crush all of Grievous’ limbs?” becomes distracting
While I don’t believe that balance means just the light, I think it’d be really interesting to see an exploration of how even a bit of the dark side can corrupt.
balance explicitly does mean just the light, in star wars at least
Yeah, so they're "Dark Jedi", Jedi who use the force a bit more aggressively. Whereas many Jedi after the Purge, like Ahsoka, Kanan, Cal, etc become what the Jedi should've been, this guy is holding on to a perverted version of the previous Jedi Order.
Its like if Nightsisters/brothers suddenly tried to replace what was lost with the Jedi Order, not exactly sith but, they're not properly doing what Jedi should be.
Luke's Order will fix the flaws of the various Orders from the past before the Purge. But Baylan seems to be teaching Shin the more aggresive parts of the Old Jedi Order, what he thinks is necessary to survive out in the Galaxy after viewing the rise of the Empire
Unfortunately I love the term Grey Jedi, but I never thought of it as someone who uses both light and dark side powers. Mainly because most of the dark side powers are bad/evil. I've always thought of Grey Jedi as force users who don't adhere to the Jedi code and don't try to deny their feeling and emotions. The Jedi of the Galactic Republic really made it seem like they should never feel fear, love, hatred, depression, etc. I believe a true Grey Jedi or even just a true Jedi is someone who accepts all aspects of themselves and has learned to live with their feelings and emotions.
That South Park quick edit was 10/10.
I saw some comments earlier about this but I know both have stated they aren't Jedi but couldn't they fulfill the role of Dark Jedi since they aren't Sith?
I can't wait to explore both their characters.
Commenting before watching, and I think they'll have some ties to the Loth Wolves.
To me they may reflect what the Jedi would have become if it took longer to get to Order 66. Doing what needs to be done for galactic peace. That slow slide to the dark side. Ahsoka stepped off that path, and moved further to the light, but she still has an edge.
Yeah. Mace Windu already dipped into that.
Hey. You sparked ME. Then I re-sparked you. It's a spark party!
Nice to bring back old, but not "known" characters, from the time of order 66 with Baylan and Shin Hati, and explaining how they became evil mercenaries for Thrawn, after Baylan survived order 66 as is read on multiple sites
My big brain take on the whole story is that the New Republic is corrupt in weak and thrown in the remaining imperial remnant I think this is going to be similar to from's original trilogies stories, but in a new context with the prequels in that he almost wins but doesn't get betrayed by his subordinate but instead gets betrayed by what will eventually become the first order because it's Palpatine all along. I think what we're seeing with the imperial remnant is the difference between the imperials who see imperialism as order and pride and what the imperial remnant and the empire actually was, which was just basically a fan club for palpatine. And this ties in the whole idea that being steeped into the dark side of the force is self-sabotaging. Always had Siri but the reason why Paul patine's rule was so short was because as the ruler tooth states you need to have one sith that holds power and another that craves it. I feel that Paul patine had always craved it and then once he got it he didn't know what to do with it. How to obtain and take and steel power but he has no idea what to do or how to wield it. Thought that was symbolic with his force lightning, which while I wish it was written better thought it was really poetic that his inability to control his lightning first against mace window and then at his demise at the hand of his granddaughter symbolizes obsession with power, but his inability to control it and wield it is self-sabotaging and ultimately does him in. He truly is the epitome of the sith and it representative of the extreme dark side of the force.
RIP Ray Stevenson, we will miss you.
Just wanted to express that I really love how you guys show your support for the striking writers and actors at the beginning of your latest videos!
Skoll and Hati? Really hitting those names out of the park there Disney. /s
A conflict between a former Jedi still unsure of her place in the Force and a former Jedi tapping into Sith teachings would make for a compelling central story...Just please don't involve time travel
Revan was the only one , other than Lord Vectivus, who chose to use the Dark Side, and didn't actually fall
I don't think we should call anyone outside the Order a Jedi, but if you remember Tales of the Jedi when Ahsoka appears on a tiger-like creature Gantika says "Jedi, Ahsoka is Jedi" as if being Force sensitive were equal to be a Jedi. Idk if that's a hint on what being a Jedi is to Disney now or if it was nothing. There's Cal Kestis, too. I would say that a grey Jedi is one who have left the order but lives according to the Jedi way like Ahsoka, but not a former Jedi who has embrace the dark side. I guess we'll see soon where this goes.
The terms you were looking for are "Rogue Force Users" and "Ronin Force Users". Baylan Skoll, Maul, and Ahsoka were all Ronin Force Users who once did, but no longer align to Jedi/Sith paths. Shin Hati and Asajj Ventress were Rogue Force Users who were never Jedi or Sith. The Night Sisters? Rogue Force Users. Maz Kanata? I guess that would depend on if we ever find out whether or not she was ever a Jedi. The Inquisitors? They weren't Ronin, because they served a master. They weren't rogues because (as far as I know) they were all Jedi once. Maybe "Turned Force User"?
"orange and black were chosen for their opposing associations-orange being the warmth of life and black the darkness of death."
Both characters are in very dark, dare I say black robes, while sporting fiercely orange lightsabers. Every which way you look at them, they are personification of "balance".
There was the Luke discussing balance of life and death. The Bendu teaching Ezra to let go. Anakin fulfilling his destiny, balancing the force. You balance light and dark on a "fulcrum".
I don't think white or grey robes mean anything. They're just robes.
Look up Skoll & Hati in Norse mythology. They are the 2 wolves chasing the sun & the moon. They are part of the start of Ragnarok when they swallow the sun & the moon.
He's the new C'Baoth and she's the new Mara Jade.
Sorry, Alex. I just don't agree with your interpretation of the Force. I think the idea that the light side is pure good and the dark side is pure evil is something that Star Wars has *heavily* moved away from for a very long time now. At the beginning it was this black and white but now it has pretty much transformed into a story about balance and extremism. And balance absolutely means an equilibrium of two opposing forces. George Lucas has made this very clear. Anakin was the chosen one. It was his destiny to bring the Force into balance, which he did by both eradicating the Jedi AND the Sith. The whole point of Yoda and Obi-Wan saying you can't come back from the dark side and it's gonna possess you forever, is that they were *wrong* ! They always were. Anakin *did* return from the dark side. Luke did dip into it and it didn't corrupt him. So did Ezra. So did Rey. So did Kal.
It was the Jedi and their fanatical clinging to the light that brought the Force out of balance in the first place. They got as corrupted by the light as the Sith were by the dark. And that's the *real* problem. Extremism! The Sith aren't evil because of the dark side but because they let themselfs get corrupted by the dark side. They push it to the extreme. Just like the Jedi got too scared of anything that could lead to the dark side and that's exactly what created it in Anakin. They pushed the light to its extreme and it was just as disastrous.
Remember the Bendu? He literally said he is both the light and the dark. Proving it is very much possible and seemingly a force-wielders final form.
And honestly, I like Star Wars more like this. It is closer to the real world where even the most well-meaning idiology can become problematic when pushed to its extreme. It's a better message then just "Don't do dark side stuff, kids!"
Thank you Alex!
I don't like the grey jedi term for the same reason, but maybe this show will give us something besides Revanite since not everyone knows about those games.
Thanks for all the work you put in! In one of those Ahsoka spots, it sounds like Baykal Skoll knows that Anakin became Vader. Am I correct in understanding that Thrawn, Tarkin, Jocasta Nu and eventually Ahsoka knew who Vader was? Are there others that I’m unaware of who also knew Vader’s identity?
…not counting Palps of course!
Do you think Shin and Baylan will turn back to the light and betray Thrawn or just one of them and die helping Ahsoka and Sabine
Me, holding two lightsabers: “French fries, pizza, french fries, pizza…”
If I were the writer for The Force Awakens, I would've written that Grand Master Luke died waiting for his new apprentice, leaving Rey (or other) to declare that she (/he) will not learn to use the Force and yet another solution to learning the Jedi arts comes their way in the form of other young Force sensitives whose parents trained with Luke as young adults
Is order 66 feeling watered down now that tons of jedi survived?
There still were 98% of the Jedi eradicated.
Bruh there were TEN THOUSAND JEDI, having a few dozen survivors doesn’t water it down at all especially since legends had over 200 Jedi survive order 66. Also what about obi wans message in episode 3?
After the first two episodes, I’ve legit become such a simp for Shin Hati, she’s so cute and scary lol
I cannot agree with the people saying Gray Jedis don't work. Qui-Gon was on the fringe of being a Gray Jedi. He was just a push away from completely leaving the Order, given his disappointment at how they went about doing things as well as their resistance to the will of the Force (even though they were supposed to uphold the will of the Force), time and time again. Gray Jedi, however, could fall under Gray morality. During a mission, Qui-Gon ordered Obi-Wan to help him kill a giant beast (unrelated to their mission). Obi-Wan asked why it was necessary. Qui-Gon responded that the Force had pushed him to do so (I assume because the creature would have caused some problem as well as some dark-ripples on that planet). Point being: It's really annoying, naïve (and childish) to argue that there are only "2 Sides" to everything. This isn't a sports game. Quit treating it as such.
I LOVE Shin! She can be the new bad ass in Star Wars!
I've been reading through the comments and I still see one group being left out of the possibilities. The Jensaari, they appeared in the Michael Stackpole novel 'I, Jedi.' If my memory serves, they had a loose connection to Thrawn.
Baylan is the expy of Joruus C'boath from EU Legends.
They strike me as Dark Jedi, beings that do not adhere to the teachings of the Sith but are far from the path of the light.
why show Kreia when talking about so called Grey Force users, she's literally as Dark Side as you can get...
Definitely curious who these guys are, between them knowing Anakin and their orange-ish blades.
Probably met Anakin during the Clone Wars
……the difference they say, is only made right, by resolving of grey, through refined Jedi sight!
I'm gonna use the darkside just a little bit for my noble goals to bring balance because it's too much lightside some darkside is needed. In star wars it's like saying "this city is too safe it needs some drug trade for balance".
If I could choose to stay on one side of the force, it's that I mostly try to stay on the light, but I defenetely can get into the dark side, sometimes more strongly, sometimes more lightly, here and there.
Shin Hati looks like she wasn't even born when Order 66 struck
To be fair your grey jedi criticism can be used against dark Jedi as well
I’ve never seen evidence or thought for one moment that Ahsoka had any doubts about the light side of the force. No doubt she left the Order but feelings about the force never wavered in my opinion. Unless everyone is saying the only way to follow the light side is to be a Jedi. Not. Also the robe color thing is being blown way out of proportion.
I think Baylan is more like mercenary with force skills than either Sith or Jedi.
Interesting
If Jedi, by definition, adhere to the light side of the force... How do you feel about the term "dark Jedi"?
The grey jedi thing is possible. "Start down the path and it will dominate your destiny" is bullshit so far.
Ezra literally used the dark side and the sith holocron on multiple occaisons and is still, to our kowledge anyway, a good character who makes selfless choices.
Idk why some people have latched onto the idea its impossible when canon itself provides evidence suggesting otherwise at this time.
I personally love the idea of grey Jedi, or force users who walk the line between light and dark, without fully submitting to either,
Maybe Ahsoka is a Grey Jedi while Baylan & Shin are Dark Gray Jedi
Everyone survived Order 66 at this rate
Lol I can totally see Dave Filoni writing a whole show to disprove the idea of a "grey jedi" after everyone called Ahsoka a grey jedi which probably annoyed him.
Actually, Buddhist teachings clearly state that balancing one's light side and dark side is the ideal state.
So the Grey Jedi are technically on the more correct path.
..
Look at Dr. Strange, hes a GOOD wizard, but he occasionally uses dark magic to achieve victory against evil, while maintaining his core goodness
I like the idea of a "neutral " or Grey Jedi, but using your Knights of the Old Republic game example... It doesn't work. I played KOTOR all the way to the end, doing good and bad, sitting firmly in the center of the force stream and... It didn't work. You had to be either full light side or full dark side to defeat the bad guy in the story. So, I LIKE the Grey idea... Not sure if it would work. :)
they might be dark jedi's maybe?
The perfect villans for the former jedi who no longer identifies as a jedi but uses the force for good, are former jedi who no longer identity as jedi nor sith but use the force for evil.
They are force users who gains power from both sides and do What must be Done. Build a new jedi school
So who are Baylan Skool and Shin?
The force itself is light, they dark side is a perversion of The force
*Sigh*
Han: "THAT'S NOT HOW THE FORCE WORKS!"
There's no 'light side'. There's the Force, and dark side corruption. I believe the only actual mention of 'light' in any Star Wars media is Rey's throw-away line while Luke trains her. Every lesson so far in Star Wars has shown that you can't be neutral (ie Bendu), and twisting the Force will corrupt you.
Plenty of times has the Light been mentioned in books. Not everything nust be taken literally, either: Yoda doesn't say "Light Side" but he talks about avoiding the Dark Side, and he talks about luminous beings. It implies The Light Side as a concept, even as a natural part of the Force.
Pretty sure shin is another Ezra random kid 'adopted' by a former jedi and trained her in the force much like ventress teacher did
I actually really disagree with invoking Lucas' interviews as a source on how the force works. The word of god is not considered a valid citation on Wookieepedia, and Lucas isn't even that anymore, a decade after he sold the right to decide what the force is to Disney.
It has already been said that these 2 are in line with the inquisitors in star wars there is a inquisitors in one of the trailers that they don't fight u are wrong and way off base I think these are a new type of sith and it is said they work for thrawn that makes them some sort of sith
RIP Ray Stevenson.
what they are is easy they are dark jedi meaning force users of the dark side but without sharing the believes or being part of the sith.
dark jedi will make more sense
Revanites have entered the chat
Will they travel to the new beyond
I think the idea of balancing the light and the dark is stupid and goes against Star Wars fundamentals. If it's shown in Skoll and Hati, I think it needs to be made absolutely clear that this does not work.
For Baylan and Shin, I like the red-orange sabers. I'd like the reason for the color to be an unintentional bleeding of the crystals in them. At some point during Order 66 or after the failure of the Jedi, the relentless pursuit of Vader and the Inquisitors and constantly losing people they care about led to them losing a lot, but not all of their faith in the light side of the force, and all their pain was channelled through their sabers into their crystals. They haven't fully fallen; there's enough holding them to the light that they will do what's 'necessary' but no more than that.
But really, both the Jedi & Sith are wrong. Balance between light and dark is the goal; trying to stamp out one in favor of the other is a fool's errand - both are easier paths because they deal in absolutes.
I don't know what their back stories are, but I don't get the impression from the trailers that these 2 characters are going to be consequential, as they relate to Ahsoka. I think Grand Admiral Thrawn will be main protagonist and create most of the drama.
Gray jedi knight ahsoka villain dark jedi
Baylan Skoll and Shin Hati the best characters from the last years, way more superior than ray and finn
Really hope Shin kills Sabine in their duel. Give us some depth that these guys are for real. Ashoka beating Babylon and that inquisitor … like 3-0 is too much.
👍
Mace Windu was a grey Jedi
No he was not.
How come you’re not on strike, too?
You’re a writer and creator. You may not be part of those unions but aren’t you going to strike in solidarity of your artistic brethren?
What ever they are they are the only intresting aspect . Maybe og style sith warlords the orange sabers in kotor is usally a sith asocated colour