Did Noah's Ark Steal From Gilgamesh?
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- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2024
- Noah's Ark in Genesis 6-9 shares striking similarities to ancient Flood stories like Gilgamesh, Atrahasis and the Sumerian Flood Story. Ever since George Smith discovered Tablet XI of the Epic of Gilgamesh at the British Museum in the 1800's we've been able to compare these flood stories and their similarities to the Bible. Why are the stories so similar? Did Noah's Ark steal from these stories?
Want to read up on this? Get the Ark Before Noah by Irving Finkel: The Ark Before Noah, Irving Finkel: amzn.to/3Qc9JUt
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This channel is now known as Tablets and Temples, unpacking ancient history and religion. Formerly known as Bible Unboxed.
Sources on the similarities between Noah and other ANE Flood Stories:
- The Ark Before Noah by Irving Finkel: The Ark Before Noah, Irving Finkel: amzn.to/3Qc9JUt
- Amanda Norsker, “Genesis 6,5-9.17: A Rewritten Babylonian Flood Myth,” Scandinavian Journal of the Old Testament 29:1 (2015)
- Bernard Batto's Slaying the Dragon: Mythmaking in the Biblical Tradition
- www.worldhistory.org/article/...
- www.thetorah.com/article/the-...
- John Walton, Ancient Near Eastern Thought and the Old Testament
- A Sourcebook for the Comparative Study of the Hebrew Bible and Ancient Near East, Hays
It's worth at least mentioning some older articles, some of the ideas are a bit dated:
- "GILGAMESH" AND GENESIS: THE FLOOD STORY IN CONTEXT, Eugene Fisher (1970)
- The Atrahasis Epic and Its Significance for Our Understanding of Genesis 1-9, Tikva Frymer-Kensky (1977)
- The Evolution of the Gilgamesh Epic, Jeffrey Tigay (1982)
Dates are primarily sourced from the universities and institutions which house the tablets:
- Gilgamesh: www.britishmuseum.org/collect...
- Sumerian: www.schoyencollection.com/lit...
cdli.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/arti...
- Nippur Tablet: www.penn.museum/collections/o...
- Atrahasis Tablet: www.britishmuseum.org/collect...
Translations:
- Andrew George, Gilgamesh (Critical edition)
- Critical edition of Atrahasis by Wilfred G. Lambert, Alan R. Millard, and Miguel Civil
- www.livius.org/sources/conten...
- ANET, Pritchart
- Context of Scripture, 2 Vols
Other useful links:
- Joel Baden's lectures: • Video
- Literary Analysis of the Flood St y Analysis of the Flood Story as a Semitic Type-Scene, Jared Pfost (Note: This is a doctoral student essay, it won a Near Eastern essay competition, and I don't necessarily agree with the conclusion that the story is a straight up polemic, but there's some good literary comparison)
- isthatinthebible.wordpress.co...
- Digital Hammurabi have a bunch of great videos on the flood, here's one, you can search for the rest: • Mesopotamian Flood Sto...
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This was good timing. I was just editing a video on the Flood and then this popped up haha.
40 days of rain, and 150 days of water coming up... those are different things are they not?
Scholars generally take one of two views:
1) They are different mechanisms for flooding the world from different sources. So rain from the sky is one source, or water erupting from the ground is a second source. Joel Baden takes this view in his lectures that are linked in the description.
2) That it was still rain that caused the waters to rise, again a result of two different sources for the length of the flood.
Late to the party but - If the rain was also melting the North American ice, then yes indeed the water would continue rising long after the rain stopped
It’s the same instance. If I stole the idea of the lottery and just called it something different to make a profit from the stolen idea, it’s still stolen. Doesn’t matter what minor changes you made to it.
@@TabletsAndTemples Second one easily harmonizes it, first one presupposes the source-literary criticism turns out true and that's highly questionable and 2) there is no indepedent sources or anything to prove the documentary hypothesis besides controversial source-critical methods which themselves are under question.
The water emitted from springs comes from underground aquifers which are in turn filled by rainwater percolating through the earth. This movement takes time so there naturally are delays between when rainfall starts and when the release from springs starts; likewise there is a delay between when the rain stops and the springs subside.
Quality analysis and presentation. Thank you!
Thanks for watching!
This opened my understanding of Gilgamesh! Thank You so much❤😔🙏
Thanks for watching! Glad you found it helpful
Fantastic video again! Your number of subscribers is criminally low :(
I agree, spread the word!
@@TabletsAndTemples Reason is it's not truthful and gives a one sided views filled with prejudices.
@@mikeh3005 The only prejudice is not presuming that one particular version of the story (your favorite, natch) is absolutely true and completely accurate. If you actually study the history and archaeology of the region you'd know that none of the three stories is historically accurate. The only one that comes vaguely close is _Atra-Hasis_ which was written shortly after the actual (local) flood event that inspired the myth and whose titular character was the actual (i.e. historical) king of the city where the myth originated.
I love the compare and contrast of all the stories. You’ve gain a new subscriber
Welcome aboard!
I don't want to sound ignorant, but how do we know exactly that Ut-napishtim's ark was a cube and Atrahasis' was coracle? The descriptions for both of them are almost the exact same thing, at least according to the translated versions I'm reading from (Myths from Mesopotamia, translated by Stephanie Dalley, published by Oxford World's Classics). Only difference there seems to be is some gaps in the Atrahasis story as compared to the Ut-napishtim one.
The Atrahasis shape is in The Ark Tablet (coracle). Whereas the Gilgamesh version Tablet XI says "dimensions must measure equal to each other:"
@@TabletsAndTemples Thanks
@@HangrySaturn
_Draw out the boat that you will make_
_On a circular plan;_
_Let her length and breadth be equal_
- _Epic of Atram-Hasis_ (Ark Tablet), translated by Irving Finkel (2015)
[ The tablet that this passage is from was not yet known at the time of Dalley's translation. ]
hi there, where are you from?
Straya
oh nice me too, im from queensland and its good to see the work your doing
Its much more than Noah's ark that's borrowed mythology..
Samson is the Jewish Hercules, the book of Esther is the story of Ishtar, Ishtar becomes Esther, the god marduk becomes Mordecai.. the psalms are taken primarily from ugaritic poetry (see "the Bible abs the ugaritic texts" by Jerry Neal) and various other sources in fact of you bring up the Egyptian "hymm to Aten" and place it side by side with psalm 104 you'll see thru are almost identical..
Moses is the Jewish lawgiver based on the original baby in a basket sargon the great of akkad and that's just the rip of the iceberg
Saved, The Video Is top Notch, I can't believe how this channel isn't on trending.
One day!
@@TabletsAndTemples one day you'll regret the decision to go against your Creator and work on behalf of the Adversary to discredit and deceive.
@@mikeh3005 _"work on behalf of the Adversary"_ If you knew anything about the history of the Christian religion you'd realize just how ludicrous a statement that is. (Hint: Yahweh wasn't always the good guy.)
Beautiful Work.
Thank you! Cheers!
I thought the idea with the reeds is that Ea pretends to tell the reeds about the coming flood with the intention that Utnapishtim will overhear "by accident", giving Ea plausible deniability in divulging Enlil's plan. Did I understand it wrong?
You're not wrong, though telling Utnapishtim through sending the message via dream still counted as plausible deniability, at least according to George's translation: "I did not myself disclose the great gods' secret; I let Atra-hasis see a dream and so he heard the gods' secret." Atrahasis doesnt contain that section.
You produce great, scholarly content!
So did it actually happen?
No, it's 100% fiction. We are in the middle of an ice age and everything that got buried in the snow hundreds of millions of years ago is still sitting in the snow all across Northern Canada Russia and every single high altitude mountain in the world. If there was a worldwide flood prehistoric animals, vegetation insects and microbes would have been washed away.
Yes, it was a local flood in and around the city of Shuruppak on the Tigris and Euphrates floodplain in 2900±50 BCE. The original version of the myth, dating to just after the event, is the _Epic of Atra-Hasis,_ later adapted in the _Epic of Gilgamesh._ The archaeological evidence linking the myth to this specific flood is pretty definitive.
Very interesting, my support brother
Regarding the 40 days of rain vs 150 days of water coming up: After the rain has stopped why would the water levels still rise? Another better question is if the whole world was flooded, where did all the flood water go?
There is only one possible answer: the aliens have stolen our water! (humor)
The documentary hypothesis approach would be that one source imagined rain and another source imagined springs from the ground as the source of the flood. I think it's also possible that both sources imagined rain for different lengths (40 vs 150) and just described it differently. Then an editor has woven the two accounts together.
@@TabletsAndTemples Yes but where did the water go? :)
Some was evaporated, but probably the majority went deep into the earth. And of course a lot stayed on top. That's why there are oceans! 😊🇮🇱🕊️
@@Red-White-Blue777As the water was higher then the mountains or 27000 feet. It is a sumerian story they took and put in their cult god
In the original myth the flood lasted seven nights. Archaeology has shown that the extent of the flood was, at most, a few hundred square kilometers; Shuruppak was wiped out and Uruk (50 km downstream) was badly affected, but Ur (100 km downstream) shows only minor damage. A major flood to be sure, but not even remotely world-encompassing.
Would you say the sumerian version is the oldest to our knowledge? How old do you reckon this story is, and have scholars reconstructed too their best idea an original form of this story?
Great summary, even i could understand
It's the oldest of the Mesopotamian versions of the story that we have discovered yes. Who knows if the Sumerian version was reworking an even older version. The "death of Gilgamesh" is even older (could be late 3rd millenium BCE), but the flood section is very fragmentary. The flood story in "Eridu Genesis" is 2nd millenium BCE, but is preserved better. You can read "Eridu Genesis" for yourself on the website livius (dot) org.
Read the arc before Noah from Finkel a curator in the British Museum and we can date the clay tablets.
This means that Genesis was completely made up. That is the reasonable takeaway. Much of the Old Testament follows this same template of re-telling earlier mesopotamian myths throught the lense of monotheism. How could anyone just assume that the last telling of a story is really the accurate one???
Yes Genesis was a literary creation. Some parts mirror mesopotamian sources, and some of it seems to be original
@@TabletsAndTemples yeah, the monotheistic part was a fresh angle, but it's difficult for me to see any way that could make the bibilical narrative MORE authentic.... if you could even say the first version of the flood myth was "authentic". I have no doubt they were inspired by real events, but they are clearly embellished quite a bit.
Some scholars are attributing the flood stories to younger dryas meltwater pulse 1b around 11k years ago where global water levels rose 28 meters. Seeing all human settlements are close to water, it conceivable this seemed like the whole world was flooding
Ancient Hebrews weren’t monotheist, they were henothiest.
@@robertwarner-ev7wp yeah but modern Hebrews have been trying to cover this up since before the Old Testament was even written. So I'm unsure of what point you're trying to make. Yes Yahweh was originally a lesser storm deity in the Canaanite pantheon. That doesn't change the point I was making one bit. So what is your takeaway about the original henotheistic tendencies of the ancient hebrews?
Yes it did and you know it's true
Probably worth watching the video
Other cultures tell of the great flood as well - Chinese, Indian, Greek, Aztec, Inuit, Native American - etc So are the all copies of each other, or did it really happen? If it did then each culture would re-tell the account with their own cultural flavor, which is what we see.
See my pinned post on Twitter. This is actually a common misconception.
Hi @TabletsAndTemples why would you date the flood myth in the Bible to the Babylonian conquest of Israel? As Abraham was from Ur in about 1900-1800BC, it could have an origin older than the conquest of Israel. Can you shed some light on that?
Hey there, great question. The characters in Genesis are literary inventions. They do not preserve an accurate history of a historical Abraham or his descendants. The stories in Genesis were written in the 1st mellenia (i.e. after 1000bce).
We know this for several reasons, for starters the Hebrew language did not exist until around the 1st millennia. Second many of the details in the stories are anachronistic and reflect a later time period. Much of the language reflects a later period as well. And for the flood story, it's clear there was a literary borrowing from Gilgamesh/Atrahasis or similar, which betrays a familiarity with the cuneiform stories that could only have been picked up post-exile.
Your reply makes no sense.
Would you like me to clarify anything?
@@TabletsAndTemplesyou are an atheist right?
@@TabletsAndTemples _"familiarity with the cuneiform stories that could only have been picked up post-exile"_
Another commenter pointed me to a paper¹ which indicates a presence of a written (tablet) version of _Gilgamesh_ in Canaan ca. 1350 BCE. Its provenance isn't perfect (it was found at ground level by a non-archaeologist) but apart from that there's no obvious reason to doubt its authenticity.
¹ _A provenance study of the Gilgamesh fragment from Megiddo,_ Goren et al., *Archaeometry,* 2009
Is it the 40 day or the 150 day flood?
J Text
/ 6 At the end of forty days, Noah opened the window of the ark that he had made. // 8 And he sent out the dove to see whether the waters had decreased from the surface of the ground. 9 But the dove could not find a resting place for its foot, and returned to him to the ark, for there was water over all the earth. So putting out his hand, he took it into the ark with him. 10 He waited another seven days, and again sent out the dove from the ark. 11 The dove came back to him toward evening, and there in its bill was a plucked-off olive leaf! Then Noah knew that the waters had decreased on the earth. 12 He waited still another seven days and sent the dove forth; and it did not return to him anymore. // *Noah removed the covering of the ark, and he saw that the surface of the ground was drying* .
P text
// 24 And when the waters had swelled on the earth one hundred and fifty days, 1 God remembered Noah and all the beasts and all the cattle that were with him in the ark, and God caused a wind to blow across the earth, and the waters subsided. 2 The fountains of the deep and the floodgates of the sky were stopped up, // 3 the waters then receded steadily from the earth. At the end of one hundred and fifty days the waters diminished,
/ 7 *He sent out the raven; it went to and fro until the waters had dried up from the earth* .
2 different stories. And yes, the entire J and P texts have been extracted.
Just curious… Would you consider your self a Christian? If so would you say your core beliefs are orthodox?
facts are facts regardless of what you choose to put "faith" into. Sometimes faith just means denying evidence that is right in front of your face
@@jellyrollthunder3625 that’s fair enough.. but that’s not what I asked. So I’m not sure it’s relevant to the question?
@@thelordshousechurch fair enough, I suppose I was reading into your implications somewhat. Orthodox christianity certainly still does take exception to the notion that the bibilcal flood myth is directly based off of much early polytheistic flood myths from the same region. I mean it DOES suggest that the bible isn't the infallible word of god though so I understand why it's an issue for them. But facts are facts, like I said.
@@jellyrollthunder3625 I hear ya. Yeah I wasn’t trying to get into that. Just wanted to hear where his stance was. Seems doubtful that he wants to answer me though. Seems a lot of folks these days like to cloak their religious position.
@@thelordshousechurch there are a lot of people questioning these days. It can be a very stressful transition, but I deconverted before the days of the internet when there were much less people considering such things. I'd imagine it must be much easier for people these days. Some part of me feels for the people on the other side, I remember how stressful it felt watching people deconvert when I was still a christian so I can at least empathize on some level with that. I've been on both sides of it.
Virtually ever culture has a flood story. These various accounts are not preserved to tell us THAT a flood happened. Everyone knew a flood happened. They were preserved to tell us WHY a flood happened. And in that, the Genesis account is very different, and stands out. Instead of a pantheon of fickle gods arguing among themselves, you have a single God who is judging wickedness in mankind. So either the gods are evil, or man is evil. Instead of randomly picking a hero, or choosing one because he's a king we have a God who chooses an honorable man because he is righteous. The half-breed deities were also heroes (the Apkallu) teaching mankind technology and restoring it after the flood. But in Genesis the half-breed deities were one of the causes of the flood and were evil. The Genesis account is actually a moral inversion of the other accounts. It is a polemic. It is very different on purpose.
Did you never read the sumerian originals? It sounds like it as you imagine the child drowning monster to be anything but a child and pregnant women drowning monster.
Rain falling for 40 days and 40 nights is not ''contradictory'' to ''waters rising'' for 150 days. Read the Genesis account, please. It mentions that the foundations of the Earth were broken (first) and waters issued from under those, then there was the rain. So. No contradiction.
Have you gotten to chapter 8? Verse six says: "At the end of forty days Noah opened the window of the ark that he had made." This is surely the forty days of rain that were mentioned in 7:12, but it's hard to square with the 150 days of rising waters and 150 days of abating waters found in other verses.
P.S. The earth does not actually have foundations, nor a subterranean ocean of liquid water like the ancients imagined that it did.
You don't get the mix and mix mash of the fictional stories. They are emcarassing copies from sumerian original stories.
Haven't the found a layer of water under the crust of the earth. If God released those waters could the earth could have been flooded?
If God caused the waters to recede and go back under the earth couldn't dry land appear?
@@dinahkruppa913 Yes ground water exists which is not really a new idea. The main body of water exists and if you mix it with the rest it basically kills every animal including us. So always a brilliant idea. By the way it kills most fish as they are used to a certain amount of salt and other things and if you change that globally then they are all dead. Not to mention that all land plants are dead when they are totally under water for month.
Not to mention that CO2 level in the arc kills all animals and the lack of oxygen kills them again and the lack of fresh water kills them and the lack of food kills them. It is a story that has about 99 reasons why everyone dies which wasn't drowned by god before.
Heavy rain preceding the overflowing of aquifers is a more reasonable conclusion (after all, the water that filled the aquifers had to come from somewhere). FWIW, both _Atra-Hasis_ and _Gilgamesh_ describe the arrival of the storm preceding the springs bursting forth.
I don't think most care about the actual definition of plagiarism ..the appalling part is that people take this story literally and I know as a former Christian that it put major dents on my armor to know that the story is not fully original.. coming from the holy Bible
The sad thing is that it's based on a real event but since the circumstances don't match what's described in the later myth its historicity is dismissed by many Christians. It's worse too since this is the one (and only) myth that could be pointed to to say "See, the bible really _is_ based on real events."
Gilgamath and his counterparts are writing down their own history hand it down from They're grandfather. Utnapishtim is the same person as Noah. The only difference in the stories are that God told Moses to write his in the Bible. The tablets are clearly human history and human accounts. The Anunaki are the same as the fallen angles ✨ in the Bible. So you see these work remarkably well together, Not setting one against the other.
_Atra-Hasis_ is much closer to being an accurate account of actual history than anything in the Canaanite tradition. The later stories occasionally include references to real historical figures and places but the events they describe are either known to not have occurred as described or have no archaeological evidence supporting their historicity. Given that the OT is a pastiche of stories and traditions from many disparate cultures it makes little sense to treat it as definitive or accurate in any respect.
Noah's ark: shapes like a boat
Gilgamesh ark: *S Q U A R E*
Atra-Hasis: Round like the other _kuphars_ (coracles) ubiquitous in the region.
Let me address a recurring comment:
"Saying it isn't plagiarism is an apologetic position"
- No it isn't, this isn't an apologetics channel and it's a position held by plenty of non-religious scholars including Irving Finkel (who is quoted in the video) and Josh Bowen. Here's an interview with Bowen where he says as much: ruclips.net/video/9zortlMZvW8/видео.html
Readapting familiar myths for a new culture was not plagiarism in the ancient world. No one here is asking you to consider these stories as anything other than ancient literature. ✌
Well said!
I would say it's a shame that so many "arguments" around these sort of topics are defined by the apologetic/anti-apologetic binary. So many people end up fixated on trying to prove or disprove the stories that they don't end up engaging with them on their own terms, or within the larger context of history.
Thank you for the excellent video.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Some barbarians try to get a culture by stealing sumerian storied.
@@TorianTammas While the authors did include elements from Mesopotamia and Persia, much of modern Judaism is based on the older polytheistic Canaanite religion. Calling them "barbarians" and alleging that they stole their culture discounts the long and vibrant history of their indigenous religion.
Interesting, but it still doesn't prove that the Genesis story is false. It just basically means that the story may have been around longer than what people are being taught. But the Genesis story is the actual, more complete version! Where the speaker gets it wrong; is when he says that in Genesis, it kept raining 150 days. It doesn't say that! It says that the water REMAINED covering the earth 150 days! I don't know how he got that wrong, unless he is trying to make people not believe in the Genesis story. Where the problem lies for most people is, that most archaeologists believe "the creation" is millions of years old, but some people believe it to only be 6000 years. About the same age as the Egyptian pyramids! LOL! It can't be 6000 years, if the creation story was even around before the Genesis version was written, since Bible teachers go by the Genesis human genealogy to date the age. Each creation day was NOT a literal 24-hour day (in my opinion). It could have been eons of our days, for each day of God creating. Human days do NOT compare to the Lord's! Maybe the evening and the morning were VERY long, instead of a 24-hour period! So that can explain the time period of the dinosaurs and other extinct animals. Dinosaurs and then mammals (warm-blooded animals), lived probably millions of years before Adam. They were NOT special, Adam and Eve were! Made in God's image. That is why they would not die as animals, until after they sinned! Just by looking at the Grand canyon with a little common sense, anyone can tell that there is NO WAY all that only took 6000 years to form!!! LOL! And the water did cover the WHOLE earth when the flood came, NOT just the areas where Noah lived. That is why on ALL the earth, there are seashells and fish fossils on top of MOUNTAINS. Atheist scientists believe that happened through the course of time, and the land lifting higher and higher, from the sea to form mountains. I guess that could be possible, but I choose to believe it happned by the flood. This belief honors God! That is also why there are so many fossils of trees upside down, and animal fossils mixed together with other different types of animals. All PILED on top of each other, due to the FORCE of TRILLIONS of gallons of flooding water RAGING on the earth, from many miles away! To honor God: I believe the Genesis story, but with some logical, common sense!! ⛰️🕊️🇮🇱🙏😊
Amen🙏
copy of the sumerian original by a primitive storm god and his cultists.
"But i choose to believe..." christianity in a nutshell LOL.
There never was a global flood, learn about geology please.
I want to respond to all the mistakes you are making, but it is too much. Not trying to be rude, i really want to show you why 🫤
How can you take someone's story, rewrite it to suit your agenda and say that's how it should be written, especially if the person lived thousand of years ago before you.
It means they were closer to the history of telling it, rather than you. Tjat being said; the Epic of Gilgamesh is thousand of yeard older than the bible. There you have it
Thank you very much.
As a christian I enjoyed listenning to you and I agree with all that has been said . It’s really honest, so you don't fall into the trap of the assumptions of certain atheists and anti-Christians youtubers that I meet everywhere on the web.
Here is my hit subscription to your channel 👆🏾🆕
Well said brother
Dear , jesus was a fraud, im not a anti Christian and i personally blieve in god but not the one mentioned in bible or quran, my parents are muslims but lets not be fool , all of these abrahamic religions including islam and christianity they all are frauds, most stories in bible and Quran are actually cheap versions of ancient middle eastern tales , please read the history , jews at the beginning were not eve monotheist , yehweh was one of their five gods , they were actually pagans .
A sumerian story with sumerian gods stolen by some low lifes who made up their stories by putting in their pet god.
@@TorianTammas I wouldn't use such harsh language. When the Canaanite authors of the Tanakh created their new religion they drew upon a number of existing traditions. The obvious ones are the existing polytheistic Canaanite religion, Mesopotamian mythology, and Zoroastrian theology. No doubt there were other, more subtle, influences as well. This adaptation of existing traditions is very common when new religions are created, within this tradition alone other examples include Christianity (polytheistic, as taught by Jesus), Christianity (monotheistic Pauline), Islam, and Mormonism.
Kb
This is fallacious bro. If the event really happened it would be the same event in history from different perspectives. You need to look at what happened at the tower of Babel. This explains it.
The different people groups were once one people and then spread across the world.
Also the contradictions are not true. The examples you pointed out both could be true. For example: animals were needed for sacrifice in the end. If you kill them how would they be able to repopulate?
The Babel story is prime evidence that the authors of the Tanakh didn't have first-hand exposure to the cultures whose stories they were adapting. A wide array of languages were spoken in Babylon not because they originated there (as the authors assert) but rather because the city was a major center of trade that brought together travelers from around the wider region (the Levant, Persia, India, and east Africa).
It's the other way..All flood stories come from the real incident with Noah and the Ark.....🙏☝️😇😅
christianity is going to destroy civilization with idiocy
Sumerian stories are older we have the clay tablets. Read the arc before Noah by a curator of the British Museum named Finkel
The OT flood stories and their predecessor myths are based on a real (local) flood of the city of Shuruppak in 2900±50 BCE. This event is very well documented in the archaeological record as is the historicity of Atra-Hasis, king of the city at the time. Applying the name "Noah" to the story's central character appears to have been done ca. 600 BCE when the Canaanites rewrote their religion (which included incorporating the flood myth).
This is a false teaching. Actually, Nimrod is the antichrist, but we are not in the end. Heaven war 2 must happen first which causes a bad time on earth before the tribulation (Matthew 24:7-12 & revelation 12:7-12 are simultaneous events). After this, Jesus removes the first seal/first Spirit of God (2 Thessalonians 2:7/Revelation (6:1-2) allowing Nimrod to ascend out of the bottomless pit (revelation 17:8) through the water (revelation 13). Then, the people will think the time before the tribulation was the tribulation and accept Nimrod/Gilgamesh as their messiah since he comes in on a white horse when the tribulation starts when he arrives.
It’s not a real happening. The only gripe is the story of Noah was stolen from other cultures in this video.
What does any of that have to do with the historical origins of the Noah myth? Even if they were somehow relevant to the topic, stories made up in the second through fourth centuries CE are not evidence of anything.
Put down the weed bro....
@@jairogers5876If that's what you want to call it Mr professional
well first dodged pat of angry chinese cop after my parents raid for drugs; but true its cristopher columbus out running my army. all propaganda made by my dad for greed sin=1 in trigonometry problem in 1600's
The story of Noah’s ark might not add up for most of you.. what is undeniable is the place where the ark landed and where the scriptures says the ark landed.. besides biblical evidence I have historical evidence.. Mount Arat in Turkey is where the ark landed and that’s enough proof for me to believe.. biblical accuracy.. all those stories might predate the Bible but they don’t have accuracy of where those arks landed the Bible is the only one that does and that’s why I believe it
No ark has been discovered on Mt Ararat. That has been debunked countless times.
@@TabletsAndTemplesdebunk by whom?🥰
@@OmegaJeriah
Prof Peter Ian Kuniholm
Prof Paul Zimansky
Dr Irving Finkel
Prof Lorence G. Collins
Heck even the totally unscientific Answers in Genesis admit the Ark has not been found
The earliest version of the myth that includes a (surviving) description of where the boat landed states that it was either on Mount Niṣir (in Kurdistan) or in an "inaccessible area" (the text can be read multiple ways). Other retellings from the same era indicate other locations: an indeterminate location on the Tigris/Euphrates floodplain, a location near the mouths of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers (the boat was launched ~100 km upstream on the latter), or on the coast of Bahrain (a few hundred kilometers down the Gulf). Much later versions of the story move the location to the Mountains of Ararat (note the plural) in Turkey/Armenia, later changed to *the* Mount Ararat within that region.
either they stole or history repeats itself, i tend to lean towards the latter
Are you implying that you believe that there were multiple worldwide floods? What do you mean when you say that you believe the latter (that history repeats itself)?
Yes that's why we had to have a spiritual awakening because we werent taught the truth/real history.
What leads you to that conclusion? How is adding additional layers to an existing belief system an appropriate response to discovering that actual history had been obscured and distorted by its mythology?
Have to say, your video definitely doesn't seem to disagree with the idea that the Genesis account in the Scriptures seem to have some original ideas, as well as the conclusion that mythological plagiarism didn't happen. Of course, there are three things to note about your video.
First, while cuneiform was indeed the writing style of how the Akkadian/Babylonian culture preserved their myths, it wasn't the language itself. That goes to the languages of Akkadian and Ugaritic, which you correctly attribute to George Smith having done the work of translating the Late Epic, or Gilgamesh XI, which is what most atheist laymen refer to as the Epic of Gilgamesh.
Secondly, your video seems to be working from the lens of the Documentary Hypothesis, which there is an increasing minority among scholars today that argue is unlikely for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that it makes the originally present narrative even more broken and less naturally cohesive.
Thirdly, to further elaborate my second point, there are some good scholarly and evidence based arguments out there that argue that the Genesis account arose from its own similar oral traditions to the Akkadian cultures as opposed to literary borrowing/dependence, as your video argues. For more on this, Michael Jones of InspiringPhilosophy has made several different videos about the Global Flood account, its relevance to the Documentary Hypothesis, and whether or not there are signs of literary dependence going on within the Genesis account, with plenty of in depth research and notes by scholars to back up his claims.
Hey there thanks for watching. On point 1, good spot I probably should have used a more correct term than language.
On point 2. I'm not sure where you saw the Doc hypothesis in my video. I'm assuming because of the multiple sources of the flood. It is true that a minority of scholars adhere to the classical DH thesis of a separate J and E source that became JE and later combined with independent P and D sources. However, the new majority of scholarship still very much holds that the Pentateuch books are composite works, woven together from multiple sources. They just don't hold to these enormously long source documents from J and E.
P, Non-P and D are pretty much universaly agreed on. For the rest of the non-P material they take it case by case. But still material is expanded on, and multiple sources can be woven together.
As to your final point, I've only seen a few IP episodes, one relating to my professional study area. My critical feedback would be that I don't think the scholarship on the subject was fully understood and didn't accurately represent the state of the field. I'm also concerned that he strawmanned the idea of multiple sources woven together as an "atheist" idea, which makes me wonder if he had read all the Christian (including evangelical) and Jewish scholars who make the same arguments.
But thanks for your feedback :)
@TabletsAndTemples Firstly, thank you for the charitable and understanding response to my comment, as well as your partial elaboration on your concerns that Mr. Jones may have inadvertently misrepresented the full body of the scholarship in this subject. In his defense, he has clarified a few different times in his shorter videos and his blogs that he does his best to present videos that try and consider explanations that are the most evidence based and the most charitable of the ancient world. While this does go against the grain of the vast body of scholarship (and in some cases, going against the grain is the ultimate wrong approach), there is some merit to his arguments, as he does point out a few holes in some of the arguments made by the majority of laymen and some scholars.
Secondly, to answer your question as to where I saw the Documentary Hypothesis in your video, your comments on both the two different accounts of the animals boarding the Ark, as well as how long the flood lasted. In the video I mentioned before of IP's on how the Flood account pertains to the Documentary Hypothesis, he notes that these two particular segments are often utilized as evidence for the existence of either J, JE, E, P or non-P, or D, and broken up to reflect as such, when there could be a bunch of other explanations for the different number sets outside of this.
No worries at all, and I appreciate the detailed thoughts.
Yeah I think it's seldom appreciated that what has replaced the Documentary Hypothesis is actually a more complex and nuanced understanding of sources woven together and material being expanded and added to, rather than that going away.
What the new school disagrees with is that we can reconstruct a hybrid JE document that runs throughout the Pentateuch. What used to be called JE is now mostly referred to as non-P. And for each non-P section there will be individual argument around sources and redactions. For example in the Joseph Story scholars refer to a pro-Judah editor (ch 38, 49 and few other bits) - but thay editor exists outside the JEDP paradigm. But it's still expanding the story by weaving sources together.
Hope that clarifies.
@TabletsAndTemples Exactly, and from what I have done my best to research (thanks, in no small part, to Mr. Jones' still excellent work), I have been able to appreciate the work that has been done in the field to correct the errors of the Documentary Hypothesis by presenting more nuances and clearer understandings of the composition and rabbinical layering within the text. As for the Joseph story, this is another element of Genesis that I was referring to in regards to unnecessarily breaking up the natural narrative rabbinic cohesion of the text if we stuck to the original Documentary Hypothesis.
And this conversation did, indeed, clarify things for me.
Which geologist supports the fantasy of a global flood and what evidence does he present? Where is that study published in a peer reviewed journal of geology? Oh youtube guy claimed it and cult member 569 agreed.
Are you asserting that the story of Noah was only added to the bible after the Babylonians captured Jerusalem?
I do think that makes the most sense yes. Scholars generally agree Genesis is a composite work edited together from multiple sources.
@@TabletsAndTempleswould a sudden addition to the religion of Judaism be accepted? It seems like it would be an extreme jump to take it from a local story and implement it into their religious foundation.
This was a period when many of these texts that we call the Pentateuch were still being formed and written. It was still in development at this time.
@@nateboxer123 that literally happened all the times with religions and kings adopting religions...surely you've heard of greek and roman mythology?
@@nateboxer123 At the time this myth was incorporated (ca. 600 BCE) the Canaanite religion was undergoing a major rewrite that changed it from polytheistic to monotheistic. In addition to combining their existing deities into one (Yahweh) or writing them out entirely (e.g. Asherah) the new religion also incorporated a lot of Mesopotamian mythology and Zoroastrian theology. The end result was a new religion that was radically different than the old. Acceptance of the changes was not immediate and people continued following the old polytheistic religion for at least another 200 years.
I’ll say this: The Bible gives specific measurements about Noah’s Ark and naval historians have surmised that Noah’s Ark is more realistic than Gilgamesh’s. Gilgamesh’s is pure fantasy. There’s a reason why ships don’t have box shaped hulls.
Really cult member 666 and cult members 896 agreed that stolen from the sumerian story works for their cultm
You don't sound like a Christian. I was going to subscribe, but... changed my mind. Thank you anyway, for sharing your take on it.
Well thanks for watching. My personal beliefs aren't relevant to the facts of the scholarship and evidence.
@@TabletsAndTemples Exactly. Facts and evidence don't really care about our beliefs and faiths. No matter how much we want it to be true. You gained my subscription. Now I need to watch your other videos!
144=24×6=48×3=9.6×15=3.2×45=16×9=8×18=40×3.6
150=25×6=50×3=10×15=3.3×45=16.5×9=8.25×18=
41.25×3.6
41.25-40=1.25
1.25×3.6=125×0.036=(5×25)×(3×0.012)=
(0.5×2.5)×(3×1.2)=
(50×0,25)×(6×0.6)=
((10÷0,2)×(1÷4))×((3÷2)×(5÷3))
Well done debunking judaism, christianity, and islam. Yeah calling it plagiarism is too strong. Though it is clearly following the blueprint of an already established fictional genre which is obviously not something you would do when recounting and describing historical events.
No, Noah's ark was seaworthy while Utnapishtim's ark was not.
Exactly 🙏
Dr. Irving Finkel of the British Museum built a life-size ark based on the description in Gilgamesh, using authentic materials as much as possible (though he couldn't get the right kind of tar), and it actually floated. I think you can find a documentary online about it.
Now, could you fit two of every animal on it? Not even close. And that's a problem shared with Noah's ark as well, of course, if you take the story literally.
The 3 x Abrahamic faiths/religions Christianity,islam and Judaism was influenced by the Sumerian faith or religion. Sumerian religion is connected to the Dravidian Tamil civilization, both spoke Tamil languages same temple worship. Elamites also spoke Tamil language and the Elamites are grandchildren of Noah so the Tamils and Jews are closely related like brothers although living faraway one in Mesopotamia, Iraq and the other in India ,South India.
Noah never existed he is made up to replace sumerian people from the original.
Citations?
Most of this wasn’t written until after genesis was. It was written rewritten and rewritten some more many times.
Try again. The Epic of Gilgamesh was found in Tel Megiddo dating back to the Late Bronze Age and it was written in southern Canaan. While there is no evidence that the book of Genesis was written before the Late Iron Age 7th century BCE-5th century BCE. So the population already knew of the Gilgamesh Epic before any Noah flood story. Ararat in Genesis and Aratta in the Sumerian literature. The Kingdom of Urartu didn't exist until the Early Iron Age 9th century BCE.
Really we have the original clay tablets in Sumer. What is the oldest existing scripture of the Noah copy?
@@TorianTammas For Noah, the myth was written ca. 600 BCE (not sure how old the oldest surviving copy is). The stories it was based on, namely _Atra-Hasis_ and _Gilgamesh,_ date from thousands of years earlier (ca. 2900 BCE and ca. 2100 BCE, respectively).
@@Biblical_DNA Do you have a citation for the claim that the _GIlgamesh_ myth originated in Canaan?¹ I've literally never heard that before. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, do you instead mean that a *copy* of _Gilgamesh_ was found there? (A citation would be very much appreciated in either case.)
¹ _Gilgamesh_ is very well documented to have originated in Ur in Mesopotamia ca. 2100 BCE, with its flood story being based on _Atra-Hasis_ which was written in Shuruppak (100 km upstream from Ur) ca. 2900 BCE.
@@alexhajnal107 I never said such a thing that "Gilgamesh myth originated in Canaan". You made that up. The source is on my Community of where it was found in Canaan and when it was dated.
Gilgamesh was a poem, Noah's ark was passed down from Noah through the Father Abraham and Moses. Theis doesn't predate enoch who prophesied the flood.
So it looks like Gilgamesh and most of the pagans myths have stolen from noah and the Hebrews that you hate.
The arc before Noah by Finkel shows you the original clay tablets and the sumerian stories which are much older then the local storm god cult you adhere to
The _Epic of Atra-Hasis_ pre-dates the Noah myth by 2300 years so how exactly could _Atra-Hasis_ be based on _Genesis?_ Never mind the fact that _Atra-Hasis_ was inspired by a real (local) flood that is very well documented in archaeological record.
Most of the flood water came up from the ground, not rain. It does not say two of every creature but rather two of each "kind". Big difference. Jesus said in his Olivet discourse "be not deceived".
Fabels are born out of history, history is not born out of fables. Why are there sea creatures found in mountains around the world including the top of mount everest? Because the flood was worldwide.
tectonic plates, ever heard of them?
None of you guys are very smart. The noah story happened as Genesis says it did. The only plausible answer is that one of Noahs kids' descendants wrote that book and dexided to have the character survive a flood just like his great great (however many greats) dad or uncle did. Writers today mix fact with fiction today all the time. Everybody always has to question the Bible and claim its a lie. It gets old.
Do you know Sumer? We have the original clay. tablets thousands of years before we got the Noah copy
@TorianTammas and? That really doesn't mean anything if you think about it. Whos dating those tablets? People who already have a grudge against the Word of God? What dating method are they using? One thats outfated or already known to be highly erroneous like radio carbon dating? But hey believe what you wanna believe. It's your right
@TorianTammas and that means what? Not a whole lot really.
"None of you guys are very smart"
Proceeds to say only dumb shit...
@trannel314 what I wrote was no more dumber than what was said in the video. But believe what you wanna believe
There is a big problem here. Noah came before Babylon. It's said that his Great Grandson Nimrod founded Babylon so these stories of Gilgamesh are just recounting stories of earlier Prophets. You find accounts of Nuh in the Quran also amongst others stories of the Prophets and messengers sent to us. Without the mistakes found in the Bible. Prophets do not plagiarise scripture just because they're reminding us of earlier struggles and events that took place.
Try again. The Epic of Gilgamesh was found in Tel Megiddo dating back to the Late Bronze Age and it was written in southern Canaan. While there is no evidence that the book of Genesis was written before the Late Iron Age in the 7th century BCE-5th century BCE. So the population already knew of the Gilgamesh Epic before any Noah flood story. Ararat in Genesis and Aratta in the Sumerian literature. The Kingdom of Urartu didn't exist until the Early Iron Age 9th century BCE.
@@Biblical_DNA What you talking about try again. It's well known that Noah came BEFORE Babylon was even founded. By his GRANDSON. Just because the texts havent been found does NOT mean the events did not occur before the story of Gilgamesh. Weak response try again Bible boy
@@mdizzle7034 It is NOT WELL KNOWN. Try again. Where is the evidence that Noah was a real person? Where is the evidence that there was a historical global flood and a crazy man with his three sons and wives landed in the mountains of Ararat? Where is the evidence?! There isn't any! So what are YOU talking about?! The Torah, according to the SCHOLARS is said to be written during the 7th century BCE-5th century BCE. You are lost in what is historical versus what is non-historical.
@@mdizzle7034 Bible boy? I literally just refuted everything you said before you commented. The evidence is on my Community. You look so lost.
@@Biblical_DNA You're literally too dumb to even realise you have no point. The absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.
Noah's flood transpired between 3520 to 3519 BC.
Any 'real' biblical scholar knows that IKings 6:1 reads 1480 years, not 480 years.
That' nearly 1500 years before Gilgamesh.
The Hebrew Calendar isn't even that old. It is dated from 5784/5785 to the creation narrative. Noah is said to be 600 years old when the floodwaters came on. 😆 🤣 😂 These myths has people struggling with simple addition problems.
The egyptians build pyramids and Sumerian brew beer at the time of your acclaimed fantasy. It happened in a book.
Where are you getting those dates from? The historical (local) flood of Shuruppak that the myths are based on has been radiocarbon dated to 2900±50 BCE. The _Epic of Atra-Hasis_ dates from just after this event. (Also, what are the error bars on the 3520-19 BCE date for the flood event? It's way too specific to be accurate as stated.)
So could this conclude. That the bible has fictional stories mixed up with real ones? Quran also claims the ark of noa to be true. And that we cannot question the prophets
But this makes it difficult not to question it.